18 Episode results for "AAI"

Full Circle Weekly News #107

The Full Circle Weekly News

05:08 min | 3 years ago

Full Circle Weekly News #107

"Full circle magazine, weekly news, audio, cast upbeat where we feed, you know, chitchat news about boon to and free software. You can find more information like this WWW dot full circle magazine dot ORG. Dell's latest developer edition computer is here the precision fifty five thirty mobile workstation ships with boon to sixty no four LTS but should be upgradable to boom to eighteen four LTS. Both versions are officially supported by Dell and canonical. Android, however, is not being supported. Earlier this year, canonical showed interest in including Android integration built into the desktop via g. s. connect. However developers are not satisfied with the current state of GS connect. And this is no longer going to be a default extension in new boon to eighteen ten cosmic cuttlefish. With UB ports, recent release of sixteen o four LTS for Ubuntu touch, and it's very premature state of the and box project, which is a project to make Android run on to touch mainstream developers and manufacturers may have less reasons to be concerned about Android and more opportunities to focus on free software. The zero phone is coming soon. It is a raspberry pi based open source Olympics powered hand said this Hackel hardware device aims to be a solution to data security and privacy for the technically astute crowd. Meanwhile, the LeBron five handset which was said to support Ubuntu tach has pushed its release date back to April of twenty nine teen. They are struggling to find Non-proprietary firmware to run the modem and other components. In the meantime, you can use boon to touch now on currently available and supported devices. Did you ever wonder about the root of specter and meltdown according to links creator, Lena's Torvald incorrect calculations done by speculative execution are not completely discarded and this resulted in the flaws almost all modern CPU's utilized speculative execution to improve performance. But Torvald says that it's unfair to have to fix someone else's problems. However, communications are improving between Intel and kernel developers. Spector and speculation aren't the only specs in the Colonel as previously reported. The spec algorithm created by the NSA has been in the Colonel since at least four dot seventeen. In Google's devices, however, Lennox Colonel Ford twenty will now be dropping the government issued security algorithm. Instead, the Chacha algorithm will be used. One can only speculate as to why this change wasn't made. Sooner anonymity is in dead, though tales, anonymous version. Three dot nine has hit the streets this week. It now includes VERA crypt and true crypt integration directly through the Ghanem desktop environment. Another exciting new feature is the ability to automatically install software updates when starting up the p. c.. Keeping your system up to date and using encryption are important steps in staying secure. Lastly, insecurity anew. AAI capability is helping Dev sec ops teams, white hat securities sentinel dynamic uses AI to draw on ninety five million identified vulnerabilities to perform dynamic applications security testing. This will allow developers to create web applications at a much faster pace. Full circle magazine, weekly news, audio, cast assured a tune in next time. Special. Thanks to aren't freed vulgar content creation.

Full circle magazine Dell Spector Colonel Ford Chacha developer Intel Olympics AAI Ghanem LeBron Torvald Lena UB Google NSA
AI Today Podcast #90: Understanding The Recognition Pattern of AI

AI Today Podcast: Artificial Intelligence Insights, Experts, and Opinion

19:07 min | 2 years ago

AI Today Podcast #90: Understanding The Recognition Pattern of AI

"The today podcast produced by cog Melinda cuts, through the hype and noise to identify what is really happening now in the world of artificial intelligence. Learn about emerging trends technologies and use cases from cognreznick analysts and guests experts. Hello. And welcome to the today podcast. I'm your host Kathleen mall. And I'm your host bottle, schmeltzer so unto days podcast. We're gonna die a little bit deeper into what we've been doing research on, which are the seven patterns of artificial intelligence, and these patterns are really a way of understanding that despite all these various diverse uses of AI. We talk about them in our use case podcast. We talk about on our research, and our info graphics, and all the stuff we write about on our site, despite all of these limitless ways, which machine learning is being used. We find that there are still the seven patterns that all of these applications fall into one or more of these patterns. When used either individually or combined together to basically dress these problems in basically, we've written about this on the site. We uses a foundational basis for our methodology cognitive project management for artificial intelligence methodology. The I'm ethanol Aji of which the patterns basically forms a core part about it. Yeah. Yeah. And we also have a podcast that we will linked to in the show as well. That goes. Over the seven patterns in more detail and to summarize what the patterns are. It's hyper personalization autonomous systems, predictive analytics, and decision support conversational, human interaction patterns and anomalies recognition, and gold driven systems today, we want to dig deeper into the recognition pattern at cognreznick go. We define this pattern as using machine learning to identify and understand, images, sand, handwriting items faces and gestures. The objective of this pattern is to have machines identify and understand the real world and unstructured data. So we say that understanding structure data is easy because already structured, it's normally labeled, but it's unstructured data that's hard to understand. And that's where actually the majority of data lies for organizations eighty to ninety percent of an organization's data is unstructured. So the recognition pattern is really important to help get any sort of use. Awful information from this so examples in the recognition pattern include facial recognition, sound recognition item detection, and also handwriting, and text recognition Mulde dig into that a little bit deeper. So if you've been falling artificial intelligence machine learning that one of the biggest things that machine learning has been applied to that's part of the magic of machine. Learning this ability to recognize quote unquote, putting her magic it seems magical like you could take a picture of a hot dog. It's a hotdog now. How that is a computer looking at the pixels of an image. Right. And because that's all the data that, that the system gets. It doesn't get any additional data doesn't get like some sort of, you know, insight from the world it's just looking at an image. Right. Which is just a bunch of pixels and figuring out that there's a hot dog in that picture, somehow and of course, for those that know about it, the whole idea of the supervised learning approaches to machine learning training systems over and over again to recognize these patterns and data. So, of course, the big innovation here was deep learning, and deep learning is a form of. Sheen learning that is specifically, a form of neural networks, which is a combination of these interconnected neurons, with weights and biases that you basically, the theory is that if you can train these neurons over time based on good data, right through, like here's a picture of a hot dog. Here's another picture of a hotdog over time the weights between these neurons, adjust themselves, such that after some time it's trained to do that one recognition task right now. Keep in mind if you train to for hotdogs, it's not gonna all of a sudden recognize butterflies, but it's going to do that one task really. Well, and so this is the power of machine learning this data Hungary, and it is one of these patterns, right? It's just one of these patterns, you know, that there's a recognition pattern is important to note that we've had recognition in different forms before, even without machine learning, even the non AAI world, right? So obviously, you might be thinking optical character recognition, we've had ways, basically scanning printed documents and getting that encoded into text that we can then use in our databases or whatever. But this is really not the same because OCR is very much fixed toy. Towards one particular representations of tax has traditionally struggled with all sorts of problems. So the idea here is trying to kick things up behind just encoding very certain things wanna train on images of any kind of unstructured data source, and your examples, you could try to recognize clouds, you can train the, to recognize anything. This is the power of the machine learning pattern here for recognition. Right. So you know within that object recognition and classification. We have a lot of use cases that we can be applied to this autonomous vehicles. That's getting a lot of press and publicity. We hope you're enjoying this podcast. And sorry for the brief interruption cotton Alaska, not only produces the podcast that you're listening to right now. But we also generate research and advisory to help companies make sense of AI cognitive technologies. We also run the most authoritative vendor neutral, AM, machine learning training and certification on the market. If you're looking to make a reality for your organization, our three day Lyrica training is for you. If you're interested in attending, you can find pricing and registration on our website. Right at cognreznick dot com will also provide a link in the show notes, we've met, many of our podcast listeners in our classes. And we hope that we'll see you there as well. Now back to the podcast, press, and publicity lately, and honestly, it's a dream of mine till one day, not have to drive for security and surveillance as well. We are now able to have twenty four seven monitoring with humans not needing to always be there. Or we can have the machine identify if it's a delivery, truck, or if it's a human that came into the shop that shouldn't have been there. These are great real life practical use cases, those thing about this is that you might think of it as just image recognition so we could think about, like, you know, if you have a big retail site, let's say, one that had like a large river in South America company, you know, talking about literally infinite number of products that you're not gonna have a human looking at the product and saying, oh, this is a purse is a, you know, some sort of crazy bungee cord or something like that. No, because that's. Human task. And so the question is can replace that human task with the machine to look at and say, this is this kind of product, therefore, I should tag, it put it in these classifications. That's part of the reason why Amazon actually has been such a big pioneer Nuys because they have such a huge amount of data. They have a very potentially human intensive task of classification, and tagging, and that sort of stuff and they wanted to solve that. So we see it across all these different applications in Thomas retail, interactive marketing. But also, we see recognition being used outside of just the image realm. Right. We can be thinking, what other things can machines recognize if it can look at unstructured data and find these patterns in this unstructured data. Right. So when we think about unstructured data, we also have sound and audio recognition and sound audio recognition is using a machine to recognize an understand different sound input. So use cases for this can include music recognition. We have some apps that are great at identifying what song is playing on the radio or on your TV. Anywhere where it's not labeled also at recognizing speech and different languages. We can also recognize animal noises so birdsongs for example, or denting, different sounds in the wild, what animal made this cry or this Barker, this Mon. So these use cases that humans wouldn't be able to otherwise do on their own. I should probably impossible humans are just not can't do that. Like you know what kind of bird is determined? I don't know. I can't tell the difference between this up and this trip down that machines are great at desert trippy bird. But of course you do the same thing you can think of this Audie recognition. Let's say like my car is making an unusual noise. How far away are we from, like, we'll take an app download nap and put it next year car? No. Listen to be like, oh, well, looks like you need a new belt or like, you know, your transmission's about to go, why don't you start crying right now? So. Driving these things easily easily doable by machines. Of course, I mentioned earlier about things like handwriting. Text recognition, one of the earliest forms of deep learning neural networks was specifically trained on handwriting recognition. So if you know, the name yon, Likud, and the whole idea of convoluted neural nets. You know, nine hundred ninety eight he basically pioneered, the use of deep learning conversational neural. Nets. Specifically on the of handwriting recognition. There's a well known data set called amnestied you can go, and you could build your own handwriting recognition system. This problem has been solved my friends in this more than just OCR. Right. That's sort of like the old approach to doing things is that we can now detect even structures in the handwriting. So, for example, their new technologies if you had a table in the textile, recognize that it looks like a table with these columns in these rose. It can recognize things like oh, this looks like a number. So it's not just recognizing that it's a character. That's the C you know, CR recognized, it's number or that's a social security, number two, credit card numbers. Address, or it's a name. These are the things that you can do start detecting, these higher level patterns in the information, not just like this looks like the letter seat. Yeah. Well, you know, it's the letter C, that's part of my first name. You know, it's a little more important than just. Great combination. Use case cannot earn. Yeah. With recognition and with identifying patterns. Yep. That's part of it. Exactly. Yeah. So see this is how, you know, you can take one pattern and then combine them into create multiple ones. I'm looking for the day, you know, I love my murder mysteries. And sometimes when they leave notes if machine learning canal, help to identify who wrote that note AM ransom notes. Okay. Well, this is what happened that you live in the Baltimore Tula. So obviously, you know, we've seen the use of this for almost all banks now do the automatic check image system for deposit and intelligent document processing all forms documentary asus. This is really part of that recognition patterns, the holy recently mentioned this is like if you think I need to take some supports of unstructured data and get some recognition or capability out of it than you should be thinking instantly that you have a recognition pattern that you should be addressing never area, where we're seeing recognition being applied as with gesture recognition gesture recognition allows computers to capture and interpret human gestures as commands. We see this a lot in the video game industry. There's a lot of video game interaction where you can use your hands and movements in different gestures, and it'll pick up on that. We're also seeing retail using this, where we're allowing to immerse shoppers in relevant content, and helping them try on various different products, clothing and accessories through the use of gestures surgeons are also using this, this, gesture wreck. Ignition it allows them to virtually grasp or move objects on a monitor. And also with sign language. Gesture recognition systems are able to interpret and translate sign language. So I think we might start seeing gesture recognition being used in automobile interfaces, you know, hopefully, it doesn't interpret them drive to the right when you're just just during some Calif as restaurant over there. But like you know, it could be useful for changing volume controls. We're starting to see voice as well, and that's another thing, those are actually two different recognition patterns speech commands, where you're saying, hey car do this is actually a recognition pattern. That's the audio recognition pattern. Right. Because it's also partially the conversational pattern too. So let's say you're trying to do some sort of recognition, like, hey car, play a song that sounds like this, you could do that. That'd be the recognition pattern. It may be combined the conversational pattern, but also combined the gesture pattern this lots of things you can do there. So there's some interesting really, I would say much more compelling real word use cases. We're seeing recognition used everywhere, and it's also bowl, the cloud machine learning platforms, they'd just have. This all built in this no reason to be building your own infrastructure for the sort of thing anymore, but we're seeing a big use case for this in medical imaging. We have a report, that's pending on the use of machine learning in the medical industry. And specifically it's being used in radiology, and radiology images as sort of like this additional augmented second set of eyes. So these air machine learning systems are really good at spotting patterns, right? But they also spot things like anomalies that, like this does not look like you know what a long should look like. Or this mass looks like something that I recognize something that's a novelist in a particular way. Right. Anonymous for the body but matches an actual pattern. So these systems can scan images and provide sort of like this. I pass in our conversations with radiologists, they're all, basically, assuming that in the next five years ninety percent of radiology, images will have the first pass analysis automatically done by these AI and machine learning systems. So this is one industry where we start seeing it becoming the norm documented because radiologists are still there. We found a really. Interesting fact about what happens at radiologists part of what's motivating this sort of use of technology. Right. So radiologists are human and human suffer from fatigue. The industry has seen that the radiologists are more accurate in the morning. And after lunch they go into an after lunch slum and images that they view in the afternoon, they're less accurate and picking up the anomaly in the photo than they are in the morning, which is a scary thought. If you know you're getting your image read at four pm, and I'm sure it's a general, but like to assure more consistency in these results. Right. Right. And this is a great use case of how AI can be applied for an augmented intelligence role. It's not there to replace the human, it's just there to be their second set of eyes help, take a first pass, but it's not actually making the diagnosis, so that at the end of the day, the decision is still with the human on what to do another area, where we're seeing recognition pattern being applied is to help identify counterfeit. Products. So when a lot of goods come in from overseas on ports, and to spot fake, purses or watches sunglasses clothing, can be really hard to do, so we started to see the recognition pattern being applied where it can either analyze or take a small piece of fabric or material from whatever goods are being brought over to detect and see if it's actually counterfeit or not. We're also seeing this in counterfeit drugs and pills, it's able to actually detect if they're counterfeit, and then also digital copyright infringement and fraudulent goods, we have a lot of issues with digital copyright, and that's sometimes hard for humans to pick up on. So the recognition pattern is helping I'm sure if you've uploaded stuff to YouTube or something like that. It'll detect if you using copyrighted music, for example, automats, put this DMCA ban and things like caused some issues because sometimes like the something playing in the background and you don't want you to say like you're using some copyright stuff. But that's what's happening now in other industries were seeing and being you. Used in the insurance industry quite a bit now. So you're in an accident you could take a photo of it. And then it can automatically do preliminary assessment it could definitely tell the vehicle type is like using it use an insurance claims, and we're also seeing this recognition pattern being used in a variety of other ways, like in the property insurance business or seeing you can take photo tours automatically identified the goods that are there to cover it, and give even some sort of quick assessment of the total value of the goods that you're trying to ensure you know, we're seeing it being used an agricultural and commercial insurance, you know, with satellite images and drone images, especially after big storms and natural disasters. They can instantly put these Jones up there and do quick assessments new, which if you can't physically get there. That's usually, the biggest issue is that the investors can't access the property. Right. You know after a big hurricane there's a lot of flooding that takes place. And so the insurance agents can't actually physically drive around, so they can send a drone up into the sky us images and be able to automatically assess damage and see how far. At spans, they can also use this to assess property damage as well after storms. You can use drones to take photos of house roofs. For example, where, you know, you might always knew not either able to want officially do that fast, or you don't wanna go up there. There's possible damage send a human up there. So now you're able to have drones go. And then use the recognition pattern to assess damage. Yes, this is really very interesting. I mean we see this as one of these fundamental patterns, right? Mrs sort of fundamentals, you can get for one of the three I and machine learning and very valuable pattern mentioned the whole objective here is that we're trying to add some understanding when otherwise, there's really no programmatic way to do. This is the classic example you can't program recognition of face. You know what is the program for facial recognition? It's all highly dependent on so many different things. So this is such a great use case machine learning that we just start understand the batteries start seeing everywhere. You might see it as we mentioned in combination with other patterns. But this is really powerful for us. And if you're doing. AI projects. Right. And you're trying to basically take a complicated problem. You start dividing them into these patterns, at actually really does start to simplify things because one, you start to find other people have done those patterns before what the right methodology is, how do you interet them the tools and technologies that are available to do them? And hopefully it simplifies whole thing, right? And these are just a few use cases for the recognition pattern. There's many, many more that we haven't talked up on in this podcast because we wanted to, you know not let this go on for hours, but there's great use cases out there. So if you have any questions about that, please feel free to reach out. We're always happy to talk to our listeners further about this listeners. We hope that you enjoyed this podcast, and as always post any articles and concepts and related podcasts in the show notes. Additionally will be publishing the AI use pattern roadmap soon. So keep an eye out for that. And we've also talked a little earlier about this. We have published seven patterns podcasts. So we'll link that in the show to encourage you to listen to that, if you haven't, and then we'll have additional podcasts as well where we did. A little deeper like we did with this pattern for other patterns as well. So please listen to those as well. Thanks for listening and we'll catch it the next podcast. And that's a wrap for today to download this episode find additional episodes and transcripts subscribe to our newsletter and more, please visit our website at cognreznick dot com. Join the discussion in between podcasts on the AI today, Facebook group and make sure to join the cognitive Facebook page for updates on this and future podcasts. Also subscribe to our podcast in itunes Google play elsewhere, to get notified a future episodes to support this podcast and get your message to our listeners then become a sponsor. We offer significant benefits for today. Sponsors, including promotion in the podcast and landing page and opportunity to be a guest on the today show. For more information on sponsorship, visit the cog delivered a website and click on the podcast link this sound recording and its contents is copyright by cog Melissa all rights reserved. Music by Matsu, grop us as always. Thanks for listening to a today. Amil catch you at the next podcast.

AI Kathleen mall Hungary Facebook Melinda South America AAI Alaska Likud Google Mrs sort Mulde Sheen Baltimore Tula
Responsible Use Of AI + Gender Gap + Inclusion with the President of the Humanized Internet  Monique Morrow  Episode 45

Build Business Acumen Podcast

1:12:26 hr | 2 years ago

Responsible Use Of AI + Gender Gap + Inclusion with the President of the Humanized Internet Monique Morrow Episode 45

"Welcome to the Bill business acumen podcast where we deliver practical, knowledge and powerful guidance. Here's your futuristic host Nathaniel Skoula. To introduce money. Moro Monique is a chief technology strategist ground breaking technologists. And approving innovator money is a former CTO Cisco who's tirelessly to along technologies to society's needs modique is also the co founder of the humanized internet. I've been thinking about a for a few years, and like most people I was initially worried, but I think now actually more excited about the possibilities of working less hours, which is hopefully something that we should be able to do in the near future AI, as we know it what we hear when we talk about the industrial revolution for that. Our or whatever you wanna call it is that anything that is repetitive. Your robots take jobs over. So we'll take over the job. And so there is this negative narrative that comes out and says far. Sample. You're going to lose your jobs, but on the other hand, and so so you you see that and say, well, they'll be new skills that are required, etc. But that narrative can go further into information technologists, people working IT because technology is so fast. You know, how fast are you thinking? How fast are we using our brain becomes a very interesting subject and itself. So a forbid a unethical I'm involved with the I Tripoli AAI or action found group. I'm actually co chair of the extended reality committee. We're looking at a narrative that discusses it's very open to people, you know, whether robot assist or a filmmaker or whatever it is. You're doing looking at how we used acknowledges that covers the gamut of privacy covers the gamut of policy to have a discussion in the industry about you know, that that doesn't necessarily be that is still in a abused. You know, you can have this tool that can be used knows your diseases. You can be you yourself. It can become the center of that revolution. Which is a good thing, which is a very positive thing. The other part of it is a taking over jobs, I strongly believe that AI can be a stimulate for stimulant if you will for job creation, for example, one of the narratives that we talk about in this book called the people center to in the legal system of work, which is published in November of this past year is could we imagine something that's nascent that you can create with the use of mortar criminal intelligence, you know, a job as a nascent job as a service for you. So with inputs that would provide he would say, look, I want to work in the geography, I want to earn this amount of money or whatever. And I wanna work with these types of people you could use this technology decree. Eight some feedback to you and say, hey, look, we have job the perfect job for you. And of course, it involves an ecosystem players, which includes private industry. It includes government also because they want to be be part of this. And who do you descend to mediate, and by the way, you could pay attacks that or you pay something for that service, and you could disinter mediate if you will the unemployment office because if you can guarantee somebody that you're ofting import I kind of look at it as linked on steroids. If you will. But it's reverse. It's very very interactive. You know, you would be provided for the job it's tailored for you. It's Taylor job as a service. So so so saying is the this platform to -nology our power technology will sought in with people's personality traits current skills that mindset that motivation. Vacations location? They wanna to and the amount of money they want, and then it will end up past career history and experience, and then it will. And then it will go out, and it was such for the jobs that would actually sued that individual and help them to upskill to get yours. Very much in that direction. It's what information you choose to share, by the way, I think that's really important. I wanna work with these types of people excetera because you know, there is this. You know, the thing of it is what's very very important as the privacy issues. You don't want something that's held by centralized, right? I think what you provide can disappear, you know, when you think about that dispense data. So that it's not just held by you know, you should be able to get an instantaneous feedback. And then you could see that the data is has disappeared or something to that effect because we have to honor the privacy, we know regulations. And plus we don't we're looking at this platform, we call it job Lee. If you look at a jolly doesn't hold data. That's very important for you. Now, you may you the thing the stasis here is that what you now have is something that is very interactive of to you. You which is very new. It's even see where what is disintermediating at the end of the day the government gets involved because now there there could be in. You know, maybe you pay maybe that's tax you pay for right? As a service. We don't know, for example, in the Netherlands, you wouldn't be paying for that. It's part of what you is part of you would be paying for such a service. So so it depends on how because I think this gets into regulatory tax policy. And I think there you have this gets into the ecosystem players that we have to have this in this in this room. So that this is about using job Lee to create something for you nascent job as a service is something I think is poss- should be possible. We believe it should be possible with technology. But there is also, and we also believe that should be zero sum game. We should. We believe that people. No matter your age. No matter who you are when they all when they opt into participant jolly should be able to, you know, have something that's a nascent job for them and given the inputs that they have. So we think that that's important. And it's possibility I I talked about this at the job Lee at the web summit in Portugal this past November. In fact, it was interesting. I was in a summit I was on a panel with people from e the EU from the macro government. I mean for various governments, and because he you has by the way of big boat this year. I think people were very intrigued because this is a revolution. It is about putting people in the center and not having things happen to them. Right. So that's that's a job creation. A on for good is also a so we talked about I believe what the recommendations. Are in that area. But AI for good also has you know, there's also the what we hear often as the distortion vulgarity between between gosh weapons of mass and Parliament, I gave an example of you know, being able diagnosed cancer self-diagnosis cetera to were not far off. If you think that the only watch number four is already gone e c g on on your watch. I mean, well, and here's the thing that that becomes interesting. If you I would like to I would like to descend to mediate the way healthcare is done. And you know, you have the NHS in the UK. I mean, this the thing of it is I was giving sort of a hypothetical Korean mansion paying for paying for insurance health insurance a dollar a month. But with that look like is it possible? Why can't we have a moonshot like that? I mean, we put people in the moon moon shot and the reason that you have to think about moon shots in this is where where. Technology could play or not techno are not like is. I believe were still in the nineteenth century, especially when it comes to, you know, ageism, I think people when Bismarck said, you know, fun, Bismarck, people should be retiring at age fifty sixty sixty five I mean, people were barely living to fifty five. And so we have not come out of that. And we've come out with it with prejudice discrimination, and even in the healthcare system that is let us sort of game vied, I'm in against you. And so I think that we need to think about if we learnt using technology that watch examples you gave if I'm good citizen, and I'm show, I'm sharing my data. So electrically sharing my data with an insurance provider, or whatever I expect my policy to go down. I want. I just I want this feedback say when we're sorry that's government regulated. Well, think about, you know, think about new new paradigm shifts in these discussions. So that's an example of hey, we could be monitoring our healthcare. We could see whether or not we're you know, open for this gets into genomics into targeted smart medicine. We could actually see or or experience whether or not were we're going to be subjected to Parkinson's disease or dementia Alzheimer's, and so on we should be able to see that analysis it for but do something about it. That's the power targeted medicine. And so this is the power of technology at its his bet at its best, especially when thinking about, you know, artificial intelligence, you think about I think about Watson's healthcare example, by IBM. So we. We think that we know that that technology exists. We now as citizens have to become part of that central set. We have to be central to that universe. The other component of it. However, is that we have to have governments model, you know, because the the then you have this Poletti with this mash empowerment, I can take your myself. I can look at you know, how I can get a job as a service and all of this kind of wonderful stuff. But there is also the governance models on mass destruction. So and that is that that is that has to do, you know, this gets into the singularity when robots takeover with this. This gets into the sort of thing about robots having over super in human human might they have a mind of their own, etc. You know, the stuff that you see on film or actually stuff that is current now which is predicting. Future. Crimes. This isn't in the minority report. This is stuff that is happening now. Oh, it's happening. But then, but but it's actually it's actually fantastic. I mean, if you can you can analyze someone's behavior patterns based upon videos being played live, and then operates it can be alerted to that. Yeah. In an apple which prevents struck as well. Yeah. But then then there's then you have to look at the thing that becomes problematic here is who is watching home. I mean, the you get into sort of dialectic. What's now, surveillance, surveillance society, etc? That ABC in some countries. And I think that I mean, for example, I it's no surprise that China and the Russian federation basically have gone out to say the country that control that is, you know, controls artificial intelligence or has as, you know, lead in artificial intelligence will rule the world. And so you know, you have to look at. What what that means? I'm not that always is a statement at a state of political level. So here you can get into you know, surveillance you can get into and we don't have to look far back in history. I always give this example. I always give us example of abuse. We don't have to look for bath pack in history when you had not to Germany and the SS working with what was part of pm. The holler holler type later to take a census, you know, the punch cards, and they knew exactly were to pick up people based on their ethnicity their religion, and so on and this was technology, very targeted technology that was used and so we have to that's why we don't have to look far back in history. Because it it is looking at how governments was watching him so governance model has to be kind of in place here. And when you democratize tools, which is which is very. Powerful. Then we have to be careful of how citizens UC stews tolls responsible way. For example, if I don't like you is that spider in your spot in your shower spider. Or is it something is it a little very small drone with anthrax on it. You know, these are the type use it. Now, we can sit back to you know, let stuff movies and stuff. But there is there stump. They saying there are things that we have to pay attention to and we have to s technologists. This is my point you have to actually declare the intentional use of that technology from the very beginning. Just say a pack of cigarettes in halls cancer. You can say this is the intentionally technology. This is not dissuade from research. No in no way, no ways at all. But you have to say this is how we intentionally use it anything that crosses like were not aware of. But you probably want to to be careful something to run, I think is very difficult. When you when you consider that the you've got China who is they've they've invested a lot more money than the US all the test cases around. This is what I was reading other die of moved into mass production. So the US now needs catch shop. I personally think that they probably over invested a great deal. So that they would have wasted all money because of the things will be like, well, did we really need that? Anyway, you know, because it's not like they're just might tech just for tech site. It's like well actually actually help anyone and you'll fund I think Lord is cases will just have been waste of the Chinese government's money. However will tell you thing is the the US is gonna catch up. But the major issue that we face is is the is the unconnected -ness of China Russia US and anyone else in the world. And actually, then then not gonna stand up and say, hey, yes. We'd love to be part of your organization. That's the I for good all whatever because they don't care. Yeah. And all they care about is is is that continent and their country, and I would love I would love to to to sit. And but I'm I'm not being negative about it. I'm just being kind of raising an answer. What the poll up politics that is occurring. It's it's very important to note that we have to think about what are the relevant political system. What should they look like we talked about regulatory tech? And what is the background that we should have example? I was in to buy with a group of one hundred over two hundred special, you know, specialists in this area talking about artificial intelligence and to buy as as a an AM minister. So and so I think I think that's you know, that's very very key to thinking about what are the what are the what's the background that people should have. And what kinds of what is it look like for governments at at at level of government? So for example, when you're elected official do you elected official because they have an AI background or cybersecurity background. You will unofficial usually on on the platform. They're running for you know, I want my education or something to that affect. But I think what we're going to see is that we're seeing more and more of the energy. Sexuality between social science medical science and computer science together as disciplined, and so you need to be just as as government. This is what we mean by regulatory took government officials are going to need to have a background in the space, and they're going to need to have a block hormone issues around AI. And it's use cybersecurity is shoot I just came out of a cybersecurity days in Switzerland where I was a master of ceremonies. I learned a lot know governments are looking at when you're state attack. You have minutes or seconds to respond. You don't know what the tribunal that attack is, and and that's that's very very distance-learning. And so you know, that's looking at how do you train? How do you get mitt medium to small businesses to be secure? Do you have a certificate for security in this space to say, you're always keeping yourself secure? And if you don't you have to pay a fine. These are the. Types of things that we're we have to talk about an and this idea that we're were evolving to and. Was secure sieve. Isn't it underpins underpins all technology, and that's the that's the major thing. I mean. Yeah. With this digital ecosystem people likes of units of Tom. I'm not not fan of it personally. But it underpins all of it without without security. I mean, it just becomes a threat doesn't it waiting to happen? You know, I mean somebody walked this through. I mean in the in the just the day alive because it's all related machine lowering and mud smart cities in internet of things. And all of that hanging of information in you have to have cyber security defenses at a part of that discussion. So for example, here's a narrative. Wake up one day found y'all and new mobile phone doesn't work and the street lights going off and on. And you don't have any power your energy sources have been. Attack. The trains aren't working the the subways aren't working the tubes aren't working, and the hospitals are are are in dire shape. Nobody can call anything. That's one an attack can look like a massive attack stock exchanges just going Wigley, and we gonna call because can't call. And so, you know, and what is events look. So so this is sort of the massive away. It was looking it. Can it can look it's not to necessary skill scare citizens, but is for citizens to be very alert. You know about what are the policies that are going to be placed by governments by the military. How the training people just on basic hygienics of securing your platform and so on so. It reminds me of a trip. I took to Belise arrive Thursday salacious arrived in bolaise and. Yeah. I went to get married in believes back in twenty eleven arrived there, and yeah, there were there were there was a competition for miss Central America will these women walking around in light skin bist dresses. And then and then we got we go out of the apple after we talked to them. We went to the cashpoint, and we tried to take money out of the machine. There was no Mondays I won't round to the Bank commend, and then and then basically thump into some believes in this Noel man, can't get no money. You know, the phone is all this and they were on strike for three weeks kit. You. Yeah. Well, so you could not get any money for three amps thought Shanley, we bumped into this lovely Christian lady in alter and we jumped on the photo to kikoko, which is fantastic little islands off on the Caribbean. And and she she led us the money. And then someone gave us cashback on a on a on a on a. Visa card from from from the restaurant right to pay back. So we just hung out on relaxed, but it's like that stuff can happen. But then it brings you back to what we really all. And that's humour. Yeah. And and this is golden in today's Zorzi think completely. I mean, you have people who who just live for their Instagram likes? They live for the Facebook messages and everything else, and they don't know how to have a conversation face to face in the real world. And is we've lost touch with compassion, and empathy in many ways. And it's because I think we can't deal with feelings. So for an example, if you see someone on the street a homeless person, and you you you tend peripherally homeless person that say because they all temporarily homeless ROY. I mean as much as they're in that situation at the time, they could be helped out, but you, but you see them there and all the time. He just ignore them. Because you can't deal with the feeling that it gives you it helped you don't cope with with this daughter, kind of compassionate in in sympathy for someone this kind of down on the lock, and it's and it's really unfortunate. But that is just a boy product all society in general, and our lack of caring these days. I mean, you know, the churches used to used to treat homes people better a hundred years ago than they do now. Yeah, I bring as society because churches have kind of retreated within their own environments because they don't want to upset anyone and where we're just obsessed with parade political correctness. Well, which help? I mean, what when when was doing the right thing wrong thing. I mean, the thing the point is the human has in so all of this humans should be in the loop because they have to interpret the data. That's presented. So if you're gonna push a button, you'd better know what you're doing right in. So something has put because the be your our I always talk about Albert MC decision making and human rights as an example. We have lost empathy. Well, for that's one thing at the loss, of empathy is is is something that I noted as a loss we talk about trust loss. But I'm also looking at an empathy loss, and I think that's where we have to gravitate to what is social good. What is good look like we're humans. We have to have that empathy art of us as far as -cations concern. We have become so dependent upon the tools that we have that. There's a sticker that I have Google news not research. I remember talking to a chancellor of a university. Who said I just want students to ask a question. If you cannot ask a question. If you cannot get into this discussion about right or wrong, and you're constantly having the phone at your at your hand. And that you're so dependent upon it. You're not able to think anymore, and that depth of of of thought discussion is so lost upon us. And I will argue that would coming back to to to fill that deficit because that deficit of Impe of listening opposing questions, especially when we talk about ethics. We have to know we have to understand. No, no surprise philosophies coming back and trend as as discipline. But we have to come back to you know, the humanity. What makes us human? And and I think that's a that's an important point that you, you know, chick elated Nathaniel, which I'm very very no supportive of at the end at the. The other part of this is Scott is if you have going back to drama job creation of robots are taking the jobs, and you were talking about nation jobs a service, then the discussions wrote should robots be taxed, right? And there are big discussions that are recurring because after all took over your job, you know, and people were thrown out of work, and you to give people I mean, you have to give people the chance to upskill and the other point I wanna make going back to humanity's humanity and the work environment itself, we have become so toxic in this has maybe it's ten densely related to technology. Maybe it's not. But then Elijah putting people to work. I think we have to be very very careful about I think that you could do some creative things like, for example, say you're gonna Vanya we have a deal for you. We're going to give you a package is different package on certain conditions. You're not gonna get. But you go away for two years in your work. Maybe maybe you'll teach in new village or you city, or maybe you you do something that has a social good part of it because we need teachers or whatever, and this is, but you still have the dignity of work used to have a salary, and you're doing something good for society. Right. Maybe after two years, we'll revisit whether or not you want to continue or whether or not the group that you're working with wants you to to go further. You know, I think we need to be creative about how we treat people as a quote, unquote, resources in a in companies, and and rather than just numbers, and, you know, looking at what role cope purposeful purposeful? You know, innovation rather than just looking at pleasing the stock exchange or something, you know, I think we have to be very very careful or benefit companies were you know, for revenue type companies. Thank you. I will argue that for benefit you'll get you'll probably earn more. There's a there's there's there's there's a there's a market mints for that. And I think that were seeing that more more in in an apparent empirical evidence that that suggests that that is true that people moving for that. Yeah. I mean, the other does talking to talking to Dr Churchill dot to Pano Churchill, he's the founder of American angels don't know if you know him, but soup bridge the on he's been involved with over thousand stops. And he's created tens of thousands of jobs with these starts because he's gonna process of you know, angel investment mentoring funding the whole works. Right. And we had this conversation. He's the first person to reiterate what Molly will will you will agree with nod. But it is it is. Okay. So let's look at the world, and let's look consumerization and consumerization if that Deutsch's through the use of a oy, and the reduction of jobs and companies making money without the social good adamant right without having having to contribute towards the society, and the people who cannot work because they've been disrupted. They don't wanna the. Tire wheel of consumers ation dies. So those companies in essence themselves dawn, right? And he, you know, he's the first person to raise that with me. And I'll be thinking about this for years like since I sit her sat around this roundtable with with IBM back in twenty fifteen with the editor of Wired's, and some really great people IBM, you know, really high people, and I was just kind of like just sitting there, and they would droning on and on and on, you know, like this chat from what I was just like, we'll we'll say really doesn't doesn't mean anything like it, just speaking for the sake of speaking. And this is the whole program of Galt with firstly, Google, right? If you wanna research, something, you talk to people, you talk to people, and you listen to content from people who've either done what you wanna do know more about it than you'll ever get a note because they've got fifty is spirit elsia, right? Instead of looking at some result. Note that Google has adjusted base to put an algorithm the is innocence gains because SEO people are greater SEI. And in our rhythm. It doesn't give you high quality information. It gives you junk the is generally there for you to buy something because otherwise why would that piece of content be there in the first place? That's true. I would go back even to we know go founders of goodwill said look, you know, do no evil. We'll do no evil is the Hippocratic oath and the end of the day. I mean, it's it's really about that. I think we have had a stretch dependency on these tools. The and were were lacking the conversation. The gore is going back and forth, and and having these conversations and depth. And y'all I mean, the thing about the thing about loss of consumerism that hypothetical that was put to us actually was a very strange one in when we were all into by. And that is imagine twenty s from now that the world has fifty percents on employment. Whether you do fifty percents on employment. It was very interesting because the Chinese professor next to me said, well, that's great thing. They don't have to work. The lady who is a nuclear physicist from can shos said, well, that's a concern for us because if if the developed world, and that was her view, you know, what is what constitutes developed in developing world is fifty percent unemployment then we're going to have a terrible facts in Africa Africa's fifty countries right in. So she saw it as as very dystopia in one lawyer fundamentally said, I guess that is that will probably bake more Baig's e. The policy towards assisted death. Which is extremely distort the end and the other one was more like a while. Let's make sure we call an is Laura's very quickly and the person who who was actually chairing that his name is Callum. Chase Kalam is an author of the book the economics singularity. And basically what he was talking about is a and the death the death of capitalism. So he had an assumption that at economy, as we know it in the measures economy would be breaking could you would that mean if there was fifty percent unemployment that you'd have to reduce the cost of living you'd have to reduced leave you'd have to have sort of different measure of economics. And so the economists in the room were uncomfortable with that discussion. And so, but it's something that we need to think about because the faces here is that is as we know it are a creaking braking. And so. It's we need moon shots. And is I don't think to your points that you've made earlier we should be asking for those moon shots. Right. Could we imagine your own employment? Could we met with this technology? We magic victory of worth was he acknowledges could we imagine not having a governance model around uses usage responsible usage of these technologies. Who's who's watching home at excetera at how do agreements, you're you're spot on about one thing? I don't Amana jn dates coming to the table and saying we're going to, you know, like nuclear proliferation or are reduction we're gonna use these technologies responsible way because nobody will agree on responsible way. It's very much so but also list let's back before we move onto the no owner get to complete please. Yes. We could do that intimidates go. He meets on. So what I was thinking was. What about the definition of work itself? Right. And actually 'cause I was talking to someone had a threat on my Facebook the other day in an I you know, I was talking about unemployment in how like think it's an all time low in the UK, and blah, blah, blah and everything else. But so what they're still X amount of people who are not working, and he actually raised a good point. It's like why do people have to work, and it's not what actually you don't have to work, but you have to enjoy doing what you're doing. Yeah. If if if you if you can make money, and you can stinted joy wall, you'll doing. Yeah. Then the definition of the word work is completely wrong. Anyway, because actually, it isn't work is enjoyment. And when you find that enjoyment in your life. Yeah. You should get paid for it right onto continue. Yeah. And I'm building a few different different things. And I'm getting paid something. I love to do. Do right enough to fable enough to to reach out to them on social media on a loved use social media. So so then it redefines firstly social media platforms. I mean as a new blockchain powered social platform coming which is which is gonna give fifty percent of the revenue from adds to the people who posting the ads your info control of your data. So you share anything if you want to write and those sorts of things are gonna destroy a lot of revenue that's going into Facebook and everything else. However, it still it still disturbs me that people could think wide after work and think the word work is wrong. I know I agree. So so the you've just burned another topic here, you should enjoy first and foremost, you have to enjoy waking up in the morning and doing something that is value to you. Right. So what I'm talking? I think what we're all talking about his house how we can bring all of this stuff that brings value to you not you bringing value to something else. Right. And you're in there is some kind of compensation model you wake up you're excited, you're compensated for it because we live in a society that says, you know, you do have to pay rent and everything else, but you you compensated for because you're doing what you're doing any joy it now is it very interesting. You know, Nathaniel what came out also to buy as a study on well being in policy. You know, what they're finding out. His people are burning out. Just as of toxic environment in so cold work structures, and so, you know, having policy wellbeing having policies it said about wellbeing is wearing born because and that gets to the point of I wanna wake up in the morning. I excited about this. I'm not nervous about you know, on my own the layoff list, or whatever lists. I'm excited. I'm joined the people I'm working with owner enjoying I'm doing one loves and I think we need. I absolutely agree with you have to bring that back and back into the definition of quote, unquote, work, where it's you values brought to you and values brought to you and your and because of what you're bringing, you know, counter value to society, but also that you compensated for a new joy, it there should be so of the enjoyment aspect of what it is. We do. That's why we get into the health issues, you know, burn out of her way. Stress smoking new you name it diabetes, and all of that kind of stuff because people are just so challenged, and they're so insecure, and this is about bringing safety in your mindset, you know, because you don't have to worry about that anymore. There's bringing removing that from from the two on the equation, totally free it, but it, but it also know the fundamental problem, we've gone up with ten eulogy and with and with people, and and it's actually over Bishen. Yeah. And over Bishen causes law suicides. Yeah. You've got all sorts of different problems. We've got we've got over and Bishen which is like, oh, yeah. I'm gonna go build the next pay Powell the next Cisco, will whatever it's not look sui brain Al the chances of you being able to do that. You'll chances are you're going to get run over by a bus five times or twenty times before you even managed to build anything. That's attention that saw. It's the first ridiculous that we've got to get over. And is nothing wrong with I'm Bishen on. Really? I'm bishops. Yeah. I'm ready. I'm vicious, right? But I'm also enjoying the journey. And the problem is is the people wanna build a business, and they wanna build a crib, and they don't enjoy the journey and not is creating massive issues. We've got technology that was we were promised right shorter working days. We were promised a better life MO money where the hell is it? Right. Like to to do anything. Right. You have to work ten times harder than you've ever had to work in your life. You got to manage your time, really effectively. And you've got to be ready. Good at what you do or you haven't got hope in hell of getting anywhere. It's just it's an insane. Well, really need their social contract. I mean, we seriously need a news. I, you know, you're you're spot on. There's no such thing as their defied day workdays or whatever thirty five week our work. We the French. Yeah. But the thing of it is is not really working. And I think that's what you're saying. Now in terms of it's a new social contract all this. Technology's you would think yes, it should people. Have this wrong assumption? I think it's an incorrect. Inaccurate sump shin that make even have led a life of leisure. You can have all of this. But the fact of the matter is were still in these enterprises, I say into biases in the old world. And and I think we need to wouldn't it be lovely to create a new kind of model on I think that's the the opportunity. I for us. All I also agree with you that this ambition blinded ambush about, you know, I'm going to be a billionaire by the age of thirty is ridiculous because with with it goes with goes with with it goes, you know, I will squash. You at any moment. You know, there's winners and losers in there might Marg imminent is. We don't have. Speak in winners and losers language. The other thing is is that the. The the people talk about fail fast. Well, you know, fail fast is not forgiving for people who have experienced because they're judged harshly in probably gets us into the next model and certainly not for women. And so I think that we need to to think about fail. Fast can also be very very disconcerting when you're talking about systems that need to you know, that that are a critical infrastructure type system. You don't wanna just mess with that? So we we need a new model and the new model is is is this new social contract. It's a new social as like bring humanity back to to technology. This is this is around bring humanity back to society in a way. This is about not having have this shouldn't be about haves and have nots certainly should not be about winners. Those I will argue we don't have to talk about zero sum game in this new social contract week. And if you look at poppulation growth by twenty fifty. The whole the whole population of the world when completely change looking at some stats the other day. I think you'll find that Africa's going to be number one. This is going to be number two. China is going to be number three. So we're going to be subservient to these massive massive economies router, the you everything's totally changing title changing. And I think it's actually quite exciting. The major issue. I have is with is with these massive life coaches that say you need to stab your comfort zone. It's not will actually if stepping out of your comfort zone is your comfort zone. Go ahead step out of your comfort zone, but still encouraging other people to be scared and stressed and everything else in that lives 'cause they don't need to do that to actually progress in do something they enjoy. I've major issues without one. I mean, I mean, I think. I'm I setting out a comfort zone doesn't mean that you have to be scared about what I mean, you can become to bowl about what it is you or doing insofar as that comfort is not reinforcing negative. What could be negative it within the society itself? And I think it's more about being able to challenge yourself. And if you're challenge how one is a challenge yourself, look like, right? What does it mean? To kinda step over the cliff and say, okay, I'm gonna I'm going to re re maybe I want to reinvent myself in a new way. Maybe I'm not comfortable with that. And sometimes those are the those types of dialogues giant myself, I've been involved in anti what happens is that people will sit there and say, well, you know, I don't know. I'm not getting a this to mentorship in coaching overall. I mean, people think coaching is about finding job. That's not true. It's not you know, it's reflecting. You're in yourself. And I think we need to take some time to to look at that. And and and have those self reflections about what I knew to to better that will be will be in a known for me and value for me. I'm a personally that education lifelong, I don't care. I'll probably be ninety nine years old if I live that long and just go onto the next thing. I just believe it, you know. It's been talented. Makes five. Yeah. And he would love to me. He he went to MIT. He went to MIT. Am I am? I too got. Yeah. He graduated in nineteen fifty two or something in and his aunt went to MIT as well. And you know, he is just like learning how to use computer right now. He's been listening to poke costs in all he just gets it like, but it's it's having an open mind, isn't it and just continue learning? And the funny thing is exactly gonna finish this topic or not the point. I think that 'cause we started out with I t in diversity inclusion in women and elevate. And then of course, well, let me let me just address the the one issue around inclusion and then go into also into continuous learning. I think closure is is is is a massively interesting discussion. I don't I think that if we the way I like to put inclusion Nathaniel is the following if our companies in parkas aces don't reflect the society that we have then something's wrong. They don't reflect your customers. If they don't look like, I had people say, well, you know, I remember walking in when I was in private industry walking into a meeting, and I was last person in one late in the person who has a lead for the customer said I was getting concerned because people who were talking to me didn't look like me, right? And so you have to think for one minute if you're building stuff if you're looking what who's involved in those teams, how do they look? And I believe if we get this, right? We don't need diversity officers or whatever because we wanna Matic in our the way our Dannon aaagh operates. And I think that you know, we have we are diverse group mindsets diverse group of people whether by this, ity, gender, etc. Now technology, unfortunately, we've been seeing a lot less that failed. In fact, if you look at you can do the measures. If you look at the top fifty will talk companies that are actually led by a female CEOs, people of color, or whatever you can see a massive decline. You can see some decline here which is out concern. If you look at you know, technologist and women tack I always say women tackle, people colored tack or whatever you can see some some. Some concerns that are kind of a red flags. I think this it all starts complex topic. But it all starts at the home. And it starts at the home with who does the dishes who brings out the rubbish rubbish elev- at. And I think that's the thing that we have to look at is. How are we? As families actually bringing up our children sips of they have diverse mindsets. You know that they're not relegated to duties that are typical of boys or typical for girls. I think that's that's a big topic area. And the very last thing is about education and training. And so on I think I strongly believe I'm finishing my third master's degree. Now, I strongly believe that legisation training upscaling is not a responsibility of some company or some organization or some government. It's your responsibility. It's really your responsibility. It. Yes, they can help with. With with regard to funding. But in the end, it's your responsibility. Now believe that the thirst for knowledge should continue. I should I think we should always be posing questions. We should always be looking at. How is the stuff affecting me? We should always be thinking about the whatevs. And it doesn't matter. What your age is in in? That lifelong learning is is you know, is something that I believe we should be striving for at all times. But I mean with with the gender gap. You know, the most important thing is. Yeah. Quality no doubt about it. Right. But it's, but it's the businesses bigger night, isn't it? I mean, if you if you sort of look demographics and saying well, okay. So who we can like 'cause if we business someone they serve demographic as furnishing sample, you might serve a really broad range of demographics all the way from, you know, very very young all the way through to two very old. Okay. So so at that point and also female male transgender what you know, whatever. Yeah. Lesbian, gay, bisexual, whatever it doesn't actually matter. Right. But is is you'll serving individuals within no specific demographics. Right. So so that means that you have to have people that are on your team the are within those demographics. Otherwise, how do you know? Know what you're doing? First of all is is working. How do you know what you're doing is? Right. How do you get your messaging, right? How do you get your products? Right. How do you get your relationships working? Because if I'm completely different to someone. It's very difficult for me to have a conversation with them. Like, I seem to just I talk to people who are lifelong learners. I don't really have conversations with people on like a talk to people who are enthusiastic and kind of not necessarily extrovert. But, but you know, they are outgoing in some in some respects, they we all seem to fit very similar modes of a person of an individual the like big picture thinking doesn't really like the details. You know, these are the kinds of personality sort of I would say disorders that I have. No, I think that I mean you probably on. I think people have to look at you know, we tend to hire. I think it's the thing. We tend to tap in people who think like us, and I think that is still around conference of bias when we have to be able to. We're all infected we have to be able to recognize it respond to it. So you know, that that's a reality that we live with we'd like that, you know, like Mayans, and that's also kind of a kind of a red light. We've probably want to you know, think about how to get the big elephants in the room to ask the questions of maybe I'm not an agreement, but we need to challenge. One another. It's not it's not comfortable. And I think that being uncomfortable is is something as orgnisations we should strive. Or the other thing is. I believe in servant leadership. You know servant leadership is lacking. I believe when I when I go through door. I'm I'm I'll talk to the person who's collecting rob era show the prisoners serving the table. I believe in that. Because you know, that's around servant leadership. It's not about hers at the board level or anything else. These are all human beings. And a servant leader is very a tell you. There was a Harvard study, I think maybe around eight nine years ago. And this question is harvest was question. I think it was ninety worth ninety percent of the of your great. And the professor asks the question there is a person every day at four fifteen when you leave the client something to this day. There's a person sweeping the hallway what's name that individual. Well. If you cannot if you cannot name that individual, I have failed you. You know, and that's the point right? When we talk about all the sets technology, but this is about servant leadership at the end of the day. Which is what we need to bring something forward. More and more in in our organizations that doesn't matter it's not talking about sweeping of Halla, Chrissy. But I'm talking about, you know, the person who who was sir, you know, serving you. But also you need to be serving that individual owner that individual by by asking questions about what how are they doing? I mean, what is their name where they coming from? They have a story we talked about homeless people. But you know, this is about that service. I shed opinion of your opinion on that long. I like lightly all sorts out to it's pretty much anyone, you know. And and I take a find it really pull. It's so important like. To the point the other die yet. So got to charge. I gotta judge every Sunday and sometimes have a coffee with a few few of the people off towards Anez. There's not this kind of this lady who's got care in the community. Yeah. She's called. She comes to church with life three teddy Baz puts them up front next to Harrow. And then and then like, you know, she's she's kind of will. I don't what's to serve. But then as I come elated cer- manager of of the front desk in a in a travel. In a real kind of you know, knowable people. Yeah. Like people to you know, great people. Yeah. And we'll unfound ready quite interesting is exactly what you're talking about. So there's a there's an accountant who runs an accounting business owns in accountancy Fabu, and he's always giving out the the service called beginning. So so so I was caught it like so I thought I was invited by the ladies the travel load receptionist. I really liked her as a person she's very clued up. She's really intelligent. She wants to do something different in alive, and she's a to learning, and it's just like, those are my people people that just totally open mind. So I sat down with her a sat down with this crazy woman as Harry legs wearing your a hypes doesn't get teddy back. Then another guy who's who's basically like he's carrying the communities. Well, it's been in mental health full two years had electric shock treatment. And everything gone. It was down there with the and then one guy who's who's kind of bouldering on he was homeless. But a so of bouldering on a think he's into drugs still and stuff, but as quantum noise going and actually go away from the paper hanging out with he'd be really successful in. So is that a note to to him? And then this accountant God will pass me. Yeah. And he just said, oh, hi, how you doing one of the the night invited him sit down, and he just looked to older us like we would just trash. Yeah. Look at me. Like I was in loser. Sitting at a token to these people, and I was just like. I was just not just thought to myself thought, you know, I don't wanna talk to you any more. I have no time for people that if you can't be human and you on toll to people and actually give a monkey's about that. Yeah. Then gender gap isn't relevance completely because it's nothing to do with gender is to with humanistic values of what sits behind people as an individual. Yeah. Where the a male female, transsexual, whatever. If you can't communicate though the paper on that level. We genuinely interested in valves their opinions, and what that daily problems are in life. Right. You know, it reminds me of NASA and not fantastic. If you if the story how I think we talked about the other day. And so so some of will pass the cleaner. And I think it was I'm not sure if it was a model female she forget, but they. Will austin? And what do you do here in this? This person said well, I'm just putting a man on the moon. So. And that's the whole point the you'll whatever nationality kala Genda, you need to be inside that business completely attached to the mission of that business, and the corporate social responsibility of ios and the business because those now of becoming Hamanaka's entirely from what I've been learning. So yeah, you know, has an idea isn't that great. It is it's well said I'll while we could go ever this is we've gotta get to this next topic. I reckon wit. We're ready now for IT information management your action. Over to you. Because like, I, you know, I've never been a big business. You've been chief tackle for. So tackle Fisher Cisco, right? Nine tech is like ingrained in you. Yeah. I'm kind of only started learning about tech about nine years ago, when my friend Eric said to me what he doing man, you need to learn how to use a computer Coppola, you know. Ever since then a so sent him messages. I was so after about a week of may choose to use this computer, which now would just out the window drive over with with a car, right? I said so how do I do this age site? Oh, this is what you do. And that night a week daylights out send a message. How do I do that? And then he said off the third message of may Oskarshamn said Google is your friend. I look I always say I'm an accidental engineer in the coming into this face. I think because of curiosity of technology and how I got into a chip and stuff like that in the late eighties. I think that tech working for tech company 'cause I've worked for a tech company. So that your point, you know, it brings in a different sets of of of dynamics, and they're the, you know, the thing that tech companies are very concerned about is how they're going the they do talk about, you know. Zero sum games winning and losing and competing and being one third or one two three in the marketplace. And you know, what worries tech companies in what certainly has been initial. What had been initially when I was at Cisco as the startup community in a who's gonna eat your lunch. Very very fast. And I love now administered up community is, you know, pretty much it. So I haven't deep appreciation, and we have an. Very interesting, inclusion diversity mindset excetera, I think it's fun. But I think the thing of it is is that it was always a dialectic between. When do you each your old to grow your young? You know, I mean when the you cannibalize your services in a if it's if it's still working, why should we we worry, you know in? When do we take new pivots in the industry? What does that look like essentially, you have to have people still maintaining the business? But the thing is as you're looking for new privilege people think that's cool factor. And they want to gravitate toward that in the not maintaining the business, and how do you ward those people who are still maintaining the business? And so, but certainly we worried about an unin-. This is typical very stylish companies. Even even the ones that we've been talking about Google Facebook's. How do we main how do you maintain that leadership? So startups, they're a constant looking at startups. You know, where is that is why is that the case, they're they're going faster a could present a potential competition for you. And what happens typically in theory is a match you typically acquire them to start eating them. Right. And that and you have to ask yourself is out a good thing or or what? Because there may be you have to look at what is a cultural. These are people are gonna stations that have been used to they work with one another and all of a sudden they have been sucked up by the board. And and I have met quite a few people said, you know, I can't wait to get out of this or are whatever being sucked up by the Ford. And so this goes into a very hard discussion. Which is what this culture looked like these organization, what should it look like in these organizations that are very big organizations twenty thirty seventy thousand I mean hundred thousand people over. Hundred thousand people looking at ABM, what should that look like? And that is about you know, you'll have pockets where people would spilling safe look like house found fast as fast loc- like could. We think out of the could we think in say could we imagine what is imagine nation about what our future could be. And what our customers going to look like, I was always contrarian. I would always say customers today may not be fuss mors for tomorrow. You know? And so it's it's it's a it's a it's all of these dynamics factors. But is it fun? It can be very fun. In can be very fun in this, but maintaining your existing infrastructure, your IT structure, and the security of it like knots to not the basic Ryan need in integrating of the you know, pro docs, for example, is is kind of what you do is it as an innovator as a as a as a board member, you have to move full stone, you otherwise that getaway you launch because it's the naturally Aleutian of business in it's been going on for hundreds of years. I mean in the UK mom saw the family. I will they were in the brewery. So we had we had the eighth largest brewer in the U K back in like eighteen hundred something, but then a brewery would stall it would grow it would by pops. And that it would bear in than it would grow in than it would sell the business or it would buy another beer brewery, and that it will grow up a not Jim really kind of what's been. Inning in our tape. But like. Is far as information management is concerned that is underpinned by the security of business. Right. A should be shouldn't am absolutely. Yeah. I was gonna say early early in my career. I was I was involved in doing network management. And I think what's Mon is network management has now become security. If think about it, you know, and nobody wanted to be involved in network and never manages always last night people cared about in in the days. But if you think about managing your infrastructure of managing the security of infrastructure should be table stake. Will stop should be table stakes because so much is at risk. And by the way, when we're talking about cyber security, it shouldn't be, you know, some just some group doing in the company, it should be at the board level of responsibility. It has to be at the board level because when something happens when stuff hits the fan as. We say ride in a nice way, we call that a very very a big factor of of loss of trust. And somebody will fall on the sword in. It's not that group in in some parked in some organization company. It's going to be at the head of the company and the the board members Tessa start stop would you say that to manage information? Yeah. It's everybody's responsive. Absolutely. I was that was my next follow up, the Avery security network management is everybody's responsibility. When I was a Cisco we had a very interesting program where they kind of game fight is like a ju jitsu program, right? You know, and he would pass new have a purple Anyar like black belt and all of that. And that is because the whole program was it's everybody's responsibility in the company. Not just you know, everybody has to be. Responsible. And whether you you game flight create certifications around it, that's fine. But it is everybody's responsibility. So information management is basically everything to do with business. Like, well, information business, isn't a business. I mean 'cause it could be might be your entire business information. Well, then you get into something that's tendentious another topic. But it's data at the end of the day. It's data at wherein a data economy. We've been in the data on me, we have to look at how we democrat is data where you know, people making money off of you. And so on sell for data is, you know, it's a hand on how you realize information at the end of the day, but it is very very valuable. And so do I have data about my competitor. Is do I have data about future market place's? Do I have data, etc. How my managing data of my persistence of suppliers this gets into breaches. And then loss of trust etcetera. And then it gets into a subject, can we imagine something where? Discentralising or hybrid decentralized moving forward in the future rather than having everything centralized at his data. So. And then how data stored if it's encrypted containers? It said. I mean, there's so much innovation going on misery. No like, you really need a team of people to actually keep up just within avation of what's going on take. When you also need to make sure that people the consumer is aware of is very interesting. Like, I think it was some study that came out said six percent of consumers fail that they're out of control, but seventy three or seventy four percent believe that they want to be in control. So you know of the data. They don't wanna be notified. They don't want stuff happening them. They want to be notified by some wealthy program are some credit program or whatever group says we're sorry. Your data is has been exposed and call this number. They do not like that. And I think that we need to be looking at how we hold it responsible. But I think it's important to put the consumer the citizen back in that center of that universe much. So but looser connecting. Thanks to the. I mean, like if it's like, it doesn't take book, scientists workout. Yeah. The if so say, let's just an example. I just do it. If my food FANG thank God, it arrived at cool too. Because you coming on the hour. So I was just like all foods arrived. Yeah. But so I voted from signs breeze. Yeah. So they've got my credit card. Details Ryan account. Yeah. So let's just let's just have a scenario that a business has got details. Someone's called details their address and everything else. Yeah. And that data is breaks. Jack. A k a the Bank should be held responsible for ensuring that is not used and it should immediately be notified automatically. Yeah. It's no brainer of no-brainer. I I agree Nathaniel. It's like whereas accountability lie and sometimes you get the hot potato affect now. While you shouldn't read the fine the fine line of your agreement and so on sell fourth. And so now, I I fully I'm exhausted. I think we've got lots of potential ideas, we'll humidity's in. If you think about all these amazing products the up being created as we speak. Someone's pulling. Idea of how that could actually work. Yeah. They've probably ready doing it. They might have done it already. And I I mean, you know, if you wanna look at the ownership of your data where that's going. I'm going to be. Are I'm actually going to be in Sern on March eleven twelve March twelfth thirty years of the worldwide web, celebrating and certain burns Lee is going to be there. And he certainly concerned about the misuse of this this technology, and he's looking at MIT's looking at some something I'll project solid where in the end. You you become the the the technology should be used for surveillance. But in the end, you can become the purveyor an ownership of your data. Right. And how you selectively you do that. And I think that's a that is kind of the promise of what we can do that is the promise I think looking forward of how we become more responsible for us rather than having dependency on central groups. But I do agree with you one thing with regard to banks centralize unit institutions that have access to our data whether their phone companies or so on they have to be held accountable. And it could be something like, you know, Derek Barra where so sorry we lost your trust. We're gonna give you a rebate or something. But right now is still have arrogance of institutions that we. Oh, yeah. That's good to be completely. It'd be on their offices. Sue news, excuse my French bring they really all. And and also it goes to phone companies as well, it totally agree because so this just I mean, I'm getting propose old. It's on from these numbers in London and just keep looking them because I and say if they got sheep in, you know, they're spam. Number whatever. But they changed the number, and then cool you with a different number, and I should be able to just do one click on it should be able to book that entire organization at awry, ushered even have to answer the phone. I shouldn't even have to do anything toll. Yeah. And that should go for emails. Someone put me on a list some Email the won't in should just blacklist immediately from sending me anything. But thankfully, of of really good web host who's a friend of mine, and he's been running a web host for twenty something years. He built me my computer, just go. Computes. Thirty two gigabytes of ram, and I'm just like. But but it's like you should be able to definitely be in control there. And you know, I can actually turn up my so on emails I can go into the Sava. An I can actually turn up the severity of booking Email. So it's like from one two hundred net thinks I'm I think I'm at like nine now. Yeah. And all I need to do is turn up to like eighty and then very few emails will even come fruits. And I think I'm gonna have to do that. Just getting a lotta spam recently. So, but also I can block specific countries. From emailing me as well enough that feature not just as just amazing to really that's really cool. I mean, we we need more of that. Because we have Email leakage we have and there there are security ram implications that I totally agree. Yeah. Yeah. Well, my brother he's been working for Cisco for years in these kind of educated me a law around security, but I can't thank you not feel time. It's been on the only coal. Really cool. Really cool. I I've enjoyed the conversation and congratulations on on what you're doing with podcasting. And getting the information out there. I think is so important the narratives out there. This has been a wonderful discussion, we could have even a follow up on several topics. So listen, very forward. I'd like very much. Thanks so much for listening. Please subscribe, and wherever you prefer share with your friends. And if you enjoy the show Trump review on I tunes, all wherever you listen.

Nathaniel Skoula Google AI China Lee Facebook US IBM Bishen apple MIT UK Cisco professor Africa I Tripoli AAI Portugal accountant
Artificial Intelligence: Boosting Your Odds for Getting a Loan?

WSJ Your Money Briefing

11:08 min | 2 years ago

Artificial Intelligence: Boosting Your Odds for Getting a Loan?

"Get exclusive insider access to Milan style and design with WSJ magazine and into Garay make private visits to galleries top restaurants and shops late coamo and much more book this once in a lifetime trip at Indy. Gory dot com slash WSJ magazine or call six four six seven eight zero eight three eight three. With your money briefing, im JR Whalen at the Wall Street Journal in New York credit card companies are turning to artificial intelligence to weed out the bad guys trying to fraudulently apply for loans. We'll have details and explain how it would affect your application for a loan in a moment. I these money and market stories. You should know a study by the online mortgage marketplace lending tree indicates the state that someone lives in is a significant factor in the mortgage consumers wind up with and it comes down to local competition and business costs currently the national average for a thirty year fixed rate loan is four point eight four percent, but California has the lowest average mortgage rates in the nation at four point seven four percent. The next best performers rate wise include New Jersey, Washington state in Massachusetts New York ranks worst on the list where rates averaged four point nine six percent and the empire. State is followed at the bottom of the list by Iowa Arkansas and Oklahoma and check out the Wall Street Journal's tax calculator just in time for the new tax law to affect your tax return type and data like marital status income deductions and medical expenses. And they calculator will tell you how much tax liability has changed compared to the previous tax code. It will also tell you how much taxes are likely to change when the tax code expires in two thousand twenty seven check it out on wsJcom. Join the Wall Street Journal and National Geographic on one of five unique land expeditions to Israel and Palestine Columbia, South Korea, China or South Africa along the way, you'll enjoy exclusive access to pioneering journalist scientists and business leaders in each country and game profound perspectives on the past present and future of our world book this once in a lifetime trip at NAT GO, expeditions dot com slash W, S J or call eight eight eight two zero five five six to one. Artificial intelligence technology is coming to the loan business. The people behind discover credit cards will be using the new source of data to improve its personal loan business in Wall Street Journal reporter, Anna Maria entry otas is on the line with us with some details. So Annemarie up. Do you think this might improve the odds for consumers? Trying to get alone will do is improve the odds for some people and lessen the odds for others. Discover is going to be looking at hundreds of new data characteristics about people, and it's going to be doing that to primarily identify loan. Applicants who present risk and essentially would increase the company's chances of people not paying back the loans that there could be given the strategy could also help some people who would not qualify for the loans. With the original data that the company was using to get approved for them. But ultimately the main goal here for discover is to identify people who pose a risk of not paying back alone either because they really can't afford it or because they're fraudsters. And to catch that before giving them alone. Interesting. You're right in your story that they're hoping that this AAI technology could weed out people using putting in fraudulent information or false identity and really connecting those dots and taking them out of the running if the loan apple kit writes the full legal name of their employer on their loan application. So, you know, a name that let's say ended Inc or see or co whatever it might be. That would be a red flag for discover because it could suggest that the loan applicant is not truly employed by that company. But rather? Just baby doing a copy and paste job as they're filling in alone application with someone else's identity. Because when you think about it a lot of this is behavioral if you've got a loan application and your ask for your employer. You probably going to use the everyday name that your employer goes by his known, you not going the chances of you putting in the full legal name aren't so high. And what they're going to be doing here is like to spot signs of of fraud. If the loan applicant calls discover customer service in his getting the application started. And discover sees that they are calling from an internet based phone service. So not land line not a cell phone. So people glides of Skype or other types of services that are internet based that's also going to raise some red flags because finding those people tracing those people back to a phone number when they're calling from an internet based us phone service is a lot harder than a landline or cellphone. So the good old fashioned landlord actually could live to see another day here. That's interesting that you say that because it's true every that to get into the phone sector. But who would have thought that there'd be a benefit from landlines of in the year? Twenty nineteen as many people are really not just cutting that cord and with her cell phones. But yeah, here if you calling from a landline or a cellphone that could actually help you from from an applicant standpoint because it will give discover more confidence that you are who you say, you are I can trace you back to actually your own individual identity. You also mentioned your store that loan applicants with higher. Incomes than others might be seen as more risky, the conventional wisdom would be that that if you have a higher income, you might have a better way a better chance of paying the loan back. So why is that early because six figure incomes while they do sound as you said as very financially stable are not Representative of the majority of US population. Meaning that that low six figure incomes or higher are significantly higher income than the media. Ian, US household income? So apparently when applicants put in what appears to be a relatively high income at least compared to most of the US population that sends up red flags, and it's while is this long apple kit, really making this level of money at the claim to be making or are. They just putting in a high figure so that we can think of them as all they must be a great credit risk because look at how much money they make. Of course, they'll be able to pay back this loan. So a lot of this stuff comes down to a behavioral analysis, and that's what is really different here. I mean for decades large lenders the size of discover and most he was banks in most US banks. They primarily relied on credit reports and credit scores to determine whether to prove people for for loans now. These companies are still using all that data. But increasingly a number of large lenders are moving towards using so called alternative data data that can give you more insights into the likelihood that somebody is going to repay the loan that they're applying for so from a business standpoint discovers best known for its credit card business and personal loans. As you mentioned in your story are among the worst performing of his credit offering. So they're really hoping the data can help them. Pare back losses that they're suffering and improve that part of the business. This effort is primarily a way for discover to root out risk to find applicants who may be would approve with the underwriting standards. It has had all along and to use his extra data that would help it determine a wait a minute somebody who looks pretty credit worthy. Actually when we look at this additional data. There's some red flags here. Maybe we shouldn't approve them. And really the problems that discovered dealing with in the personal loan world are pretty emblematic of what's going on in the personal loan industry. This is a booming market outstanding balances industry-wide our record levels in recent years. There have been a number of banks that have jumped into the space to compete against fintech. Six the have been in the personal loan market starting shortly after the last financial downturn. And so there's a whole bunch of competition for borrowers and to keep originating loan volume. And what's happened in quite frankly is that allow fraudsters or getting in the mix here in terms of a people who are applying for loans with made up fake identities. And this is something that discovers CEO spoke with me about that was working on this article that one of the things that they're. Trying to a get a handle on on is is the so called synthetic or made that by densities. So that's where things like putting in a full legal name of a company could raise a red flag because like, well, wait a minute would have real person actually do that. So personal losses up at discover an industry-wide happened on the rise. And as you said discovers personal loan losses are the worst lone performer at the company period. They're performing worse than credit cards worse than private student loans. At discover offers and just to give you an idea of what that means loan losses in discovers personal wounds in the fourth quarter of twenty eighteen rose by more than eighty basis points. That's a lot on a year over year basis. So clearly what's happening here is the company's trying to take a digital steps to get that under control remains to be seen. How helpful the strategy will be all right? Earth is Wall Street Journal reporter, Anna Maria Andreatta's on the line with us in a Maria. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you. And that's your money briefing, im char Whalen in New York for the Wall Street Journal.

Wall Street Journal US Wall Street Journal and Nation char Whalen New York reporter apple California New Jersey Iowa Milan New York Garay coamo AAI Annemarie fraud Anna Maria
Words On Water #91: Jim Cooper on Demystifying Intelligent Water

Words on Water

25:10 min | 2 years ago

Words On Water #91: Jim Cooper on Demystifying Intelligent Water

"Got word. This episode is brought to you by Arkadiusz the leading global design and consultancy firm for natural and built assets. Visit WWW dot Arkadiusz dot com. Hi, welcome to words on water. A podcast from the water environment federation, this is the host Travis loop tons of talk in the water sector about intelligent water systems about our digital age, just what this all means for water. So I'm very excited to be joined by Jim Cooper. He's the intelligent water systems lead at our Kadish Jim. How're you doing great? Great. How are you Travis? I'm doing well as we prepared for this conversation. I ended up writing down a lot of questions for you 'cause there's, there's just so much going on in this area. So I look forward to, to going over all this with you. Let's start someplace. I guess somewhat simple. What does this phrase intelligent water mean to you? Sure. That, that's a great question. Right. We live in this very unique time of change within the water sector. You know, we're seeing rapid growth of smart devices. Converging IT, and OT and really practical application of some previously, untapped capabilities such as machine learning and computer vision, and in broader terms. Right, artificial intelligence. So within this environment of change. Right. Intelligent, water's, really the how that we go from the condition that most utilities are in today to a future state. And when we're operating more sustainably, that's very interesting. I like that. It's, it's the means to this to this end here, I'm really interested in, and we talked about this in preparing a little bit, the idea that the water sector is just in this phase of massive data collection. But needing figure out like what are the next steps to then using this data, and I wanted to get your thoughts on that. It's an and is that where the water sector is? And is the next step really figuring out? Out what to do with all this data? That's now being collected. Sure. And I think we're definitely in what I'll call a transition period. Right. We were passed the period of data collection just because we can. Right. Because the sensor technology and communication technologies out there, and we're not quite at that period. Will we are fully utilizing the data and really getting not only the greatest business value out of specific data point? But also having that data best empower the workforce to make the best decisions possible. We live in this connected world. There's supposed to be over five hundred billion connected devices by twenty thirty. Right. So, so this is all here in happening, and we're in that that transition period right now while I mean, a lot of good stuff there. But that fact about five hundred billion he said correct connected devices, I mean, that's exponential outnumbers the people on the planet. So that's amazing. Is the water sector searching for direction when it comes to some of those things, you mentioned artificial intelligence machine learning or is it that they don't believe that that's really a near term reality are is the water sector scared to make the leap to, to those platforms. What's your, what's your Cessna? Yeah. I love to talk about a with specifically within the water sector. I've heard even recently from for multiple utilities throughout the US that there are a number of startups knocking on their door ready to apply technologies and improve the utility in many different ways. I mean going back to twenty fifteen there's twenty eight product launches alone for digital technologies within the water sector. So it's here in it's happening today, often a lot of the conversations around these really advanced technologies are in the context of. I being this black box, right? And you know, breaking news is NADA blackbox in most cases. So my hope is that through our research utilities can better understand what is how it can be used. And what's the value of beginning to use it today, rather than twenty years from, now into Tanzer, the second part of that question, right? Is, is it really near term reality? So there's an industry expert from Google that believes the AI will transform the water industry over the next twenty years, and the same way that the internet has transformed our sector in the past twenty years. So if you and I were having this discussion twenty years ago, I think would probably say that the internet may may not have an impact on the water sector, right? We're in the business of treating water yet today. Everyone has a smartphone. And on average, we use every few minutes throughout the day, and can even get notifications when processes, don't go as intended, or, you know, if there's anything that we need to. Attend to directly to our smartphones. Yeah. That's very interesting. Wow. I that is cool to look back twenty some years. And, and what did we think about the internet then and what it was gonna mean? Well, you might have to have a web page for your for your till it or something. But it certainly has ton much more than that a little side question about artificial intelligence people hear this phrase, and probably have a whole range of definitions, they put on it or in envision it in different ways like all the way to, you know, robots and all this kind of stuff, maybe that's why it's a black box. But what is, what is artificial intelligence really in one of the more common questions that, that surround the advanced in the lyrics topic within the water sector. Right. I often hear people use the term machine learning interchangeably with artificial intelligence. When really machine learning is an example of one aspect of artificial intelligence. Right. But that true meaning of artificial intelligence is not only the learning aspect, but also the sensing reasoning and engaging aspects pointing those all together provides an artificial intelligence environment, and where even today, we're kind of in this narrow AI where it's very specific to address one problem and in the future, as we become more human Centric, and really brought in that definition. We can leverage in really expand, how I can be used what's in the water sector. Okay. That's that's helpful for me to my understanding of it as well. You know, you mentioned how are Kadish is really looking at these issues and really done some research and, and put together a report on demystifying intelligent water. Why is that then a focus for you? I mean the. Trends within the water sector. And then when I referred to the water sector, I refer to, you know, water utilities, wastewater utilities, stormwater, the these really are, are things that we need to pay attention to right. If you look at the Awa state of the water industry report from last year, you know, water and sewer rates are increasing faster than flation. The state of the water sector is declining water demand is declining as well. So you have rates increasing and demand declining with great driven models. And we, we really have this, this broad front of these acute, and chronic stressors that are really requiring improve resilient. So it really comes down to affordability and resilience, but at the end of the day, it's really all about the people. Right. It's about our workforce, and more importantly, the customers for the water utilities. We're at this critical juncture it sounds like we've got some big challenges, you mentioned a few. But we've also got you know, the impacts of climate. Change. And we've got, you know, workforce needs in terms of numbers and skill set. And so intelligent water is a really important area for the water sector to leverage right now as we're facing all these challenges. Right. Right. You know there's, there's another statistic only twenty one percent of utilities feel they're able to fully cover the cost of providing water today. That's a pretty scary number in our experience. Right application of intelligent water and actually having projects in getting meaningful results really provides that a ha moment for utilities, right where they can reality funds in orders of magnitude greater than they once thought they could wait. Let's, let's talk about that a little more about Kennedy affordability that you mentioned and what role can intelligent water play in making. Water more affordable for for people. Sure. So, so let's just kind of contextualized that affordability topic. Right. The US municipal utilities, manage one point two five trillion dollars of assets for water wastewater, and stormwater. Many of those assets are at or near than of their useful life. So we've heard the topic of asset management being a very popular one recently. And when you can apply those intelligent water technologies are research has shown that utilities throughout the US can save over seventeen billion dollars on there s s just within the next decade by applying those technologies. So it's really about making what you have is utility not only more affordable to your customers, but really just understanding from the customer point of view what we need to do in understanding that we have to change. Order to be sustainable financially a decade from now. Can you give an example of how intelligent water could be applied to realize some kind of cost savings or something? And I think asset management is one area where that's really big. Right. You know, we could talk for for days on specific examples, but one that I like to really talk about is thinking about a, an operator a frontline operator at a treatment facility, right? We today we, we live in this world where we're going beyond the Dida driven and really looking at dashboards and trying to extract some insight in real time from our processes. So we have many titties out there that are developing dashboards based on their processes to look at performance. And look at ways they can improve optimize. Right. But I haven't heard a single utility that's willing to allow a cloud-based AAI to actually make changes. To the process. Right. So we have this, you know, how can we actually use this technology? How can we apply? How can we make a financial change or improvement when we have issues like cyber security, which can't be ignored and really? That's when you take the perspective of applying a an operator, or human Centric, focused on a I right? Then you have this all of a sudden, you have this operator, or human within the loop so that the operator can, then see. Oh, hey. I can save you know, so many dollars by changing this specific operation for the next four hours while on here. Right. And those little things. Oh, small steps over time can make us substantial difference in the financial impacts for that you till the AI side of things and predictive analytics, you know, we talked about a little affordability. How do you play that to, to resilience to utilities resilience? How how can they I and Anna? Politics play into that side of things when we talk about resilience right? There's absolutely two primary areas. Right. We have those acute shocks, which are often what come to mind when people think about utility resilience, and then we have the, the chronic stressors which are things like workforce, right? So if you apply predictive analytics to a utility, it's pretty easy to see how that can really positively impact your rebound from acute, shocks, right from when a large hurricane hit, Houston over the past year. Right. They, they said that they physically could not access some of their facilities, right? But being able to be connected from there and adapt to the, you know, the changing conditions and bounce back from them, they were able to do that. Because they had technology in place to do, so that's that's amazing. At I member. I actually had the chance to go down to Houston, and talked to some of those operators, and they talked. Very much about that, about not being able to get an oscilloscope inhabited to work on things remotely amazing which kind of leads me to one of the big questions, not just in the water workforce, but in the broad overall workforce, and that's, you know, technology artificial intelligence all this digitisation going on how much is that going to replace actual workers. That's a big question. I know. But yeah, absolutely. In one that as you start to get into more mature discussions about a I it's absolutely at the center of, of the discussions right in. It's forget reason, it's really easy to think about machines, taking over jobs, being replaced by technology. And, you know, of course, the some degree technology is going to impact the roles we have. But it's not going to replace many of our roles. Right. Actually a workforce, that's enabled by today's technology will be immensely more valuable to an organization in the future than workforce without that technology. So when we talk about machines, replacing humans, I think it's much more of a human's becoming more valuable to an organization based on that technology. Interesting, one of the things that I've phrases, I've heard and heard from you is collective intelligence. What does that mean? Sure. So the topic of in general measuring intelligence in groups of things as well researched. We know that the measure of intelligence of any specific group, it could. Could be a group of subject matter experts in a conference room or could be a group of supercomputers in the server facility. Right. Any of the intelligence of any one of those groups alone doesn't come close to the measure of intelligence when you have those people, plus machines and technology, collectively working together. Right. So that's, that's what collective intelligence is. I'm sure you've heard of the, the analytics maturity model where you go from descriptive. Analytics to diagnostic predictive, and prescriptive, right, yet, we often, we think of AI is the highest level of analytics today, but I really believe in the water sector the power of collective intelligence or see. I is that step beyond were that people plus technology, collectively can make the best decisions and really are necessary to make those decisions as we move forward for the next decade. You know that leads me to this idea that, you know, the possibility that a tech focused future, where we're obviously. Very much headed can still be human Centric. And I think that's something that, that you all at our Kadish have kinda really explored in this in this report of your so 'cause you talk about that idea of tech, focus future, being human Centric. Sure. So there's a number of Zambales, how a tech focused future can really be human Centric, you know, the on the very basic level rate, giving people opportunities to develop right to attract and retain the workforce of the future. Right. That's an unnecessary operating principle of utility. Right. So really having a, a human focused approach to that to adopting, those technologies can can help build your workforce, but it goes much deeper than that, right? There's customer relationships and having that, you know instead of having a negative call of a customer calling utility to complain. They have a very high water Bill because they had a break, right? The, the utility can then be, you know, foot that over and call the customer saying, hey, you, you have unusual usage. Right. You might have a break. Let's try to solve this before you have a large Bill, but, you know, often hear the term of data driven decisions. Right. And you know, we're gonna move data driven decisions, and I really think we're beyond that, right? And I talked about dashboards earlier and maybe going from data driven to dashboard driven decisions or incite driven decisions, but it's really it's really much deeper than that, right? The, the water sector is really people driven no matter how you look at it. And what's changing is the way that people are empowered by technology. So that's the future, and it's absolutely a human Centric future, when it's understanding really people that drive our sector in the technology that empowers them is changing in advancing. So collectively you have that greater ability in intelligence to make decisions where would you say, we are in this transition to intelligent water, given the technology will all L is changes in will probably always change. I guess, never ending transition. But where are we in that process? And do you think that we're gonna see some real quick leap, or quick shift or is it going to be more of like a gradual long-term volition to incorporating all this? What, what's your thoughts? Sure. So I believe we were right at the tipping point for intelligent water, where the early adopters are reaping. The benefits everyone starting to see that in the majority of utilities are now beginning their journey to adopting intelligent water technology right in a lot of the data within our research supports that both from the research provided by Bluefield and by American waterworks and others. Some really excited to dive into that. And provide some of those details in our research. Yeah. Interesting. Well, so it's like that it's that curve that bell curve right where you have the early adopters and then after that comes of much bigger Shung of the curve that gets on board with, with that behavior change. Yeah. Exactly. That's the, the Rogers curve in typically when amassed on that question I try to draw that and kinda show where we're right at the tipping point of, of the, you know, the concepts been proven. And now everyone's ready to go. Adoptive say you think over the next like three to five years. They'll be a big surge. Yeah. It's it's hard to put a timeframe to it and into the second part of your question. Right. It's, it's definitely a long-term journey. Right. So every utility, their timeframe is different. But the critical aspect of that today is self awareness and mapping where you are. Are on that curve. Right. And looking at, you know, where do we need to be in three to five years, or maybe ten to twenty years? And what's the technology that's going to get us there? And what's our plan, right? What's our digital strategic plan to get their share a couple other things that jumped out at me. And the report that I really would like to get your take on as is this idea of a fit for future utility. I I'd like the sound of that. But I wonder if you could explain it a little bit more. You know, we talk about just an organizational health and asset fitness bringing altogether. That's really the how we define fit for future. Right. It's applying in concepts for work for million with our health right to the organization in fitness to our assets and bring that all together. And you know, it's really preparing the workforce, and the operations for empowering digital innovation, and preparing the organization to remain human Centric, and really. Focus on the customer experience. More than we have in the past. Okay. Okay. And you, you also talk about the idea that, you know, water utilities, don't just exist in Soleil, Shen. They're very much a part of the community. And as we see cities kind of going under this the same transformation trying to become smart cities, that what are you tilles have a role to play there? And I wonder if you could could talk about that, if we looked into the past, you know, rarely is water disgusting smart cities, but that's definitely changing. It's I think it's changing for two reasons as utilities implement digital technology such as am. I earn advanced metering, right? It really provides that foundation of abroad, sensor network abroad, indication that work throughout the city, and that can be leveraged by many other initiatives in the censoring commute. Location that works are very core to developing a smart city, second is cities really understand in value. The one water concept, right? That measurement and capture of water throughout the urban water cycles, really embedded with an intelligent water system. So, I think as both these initiatives, smart city and intelligent water mature. It's going to very clearly align, and be merged with many different in many different ways. I mean I see lots of articles and social media churn on on smart city. So there's definitely a lot of momentum on that front. I guess last question for you. There's, there's a lot going on and intelligent water. All these different aspects. We talked about. I think it can be daunting dizzying to utility figuring out kinda where to go. And I'm wondering if you had what your advice would be to utility. Who's kinda looking to guess take the take the first step or the or the, the big step into intelligent water? What, what would you recommend that they do as a starting point? The starting point is the self-awareness right in. I've heard basically two opinions viewpoints from utilities, one is, we want to adopt technology that solves our problems. So we should start with identifying what our greatest challenges are today and then figure out how technology can improve those right? And then the, the opposing viewpoint is we don't fully understand what our problems are, so what's implement advanced technology like a I right? And it can help identify then solve what our problems are. So it really comes down to moving forward. Right. And that's the first step that you need to take knowing that, that first step may be different. For very Tila, these, right? You if we sit here and think, oh, this is great. Absolutely. See the value, but artillery is going to implement this after we all retire. There's a significant loss value there. But that's a common discussion that happens. Sure. Sure. Absolutely. Jim tons of good information here. And I think the report from our Kadish lays out, these issues in a very thoughtful way that people can benefit from taking a look at we could go on and on into any of these angles for awhile, but I appreciate the time and, and the perspective, absolutely. Thanks for your time Travis. Word. Water.

water environment federation US Kadish AI Travis Arkadiusz Jim Cooper Google Houston NADA Tanzer Kennedy Anna Bluefield
Thu. 05/14 - How To Beat COVID-19 and Save The Economy

Coronavirus Daily Briefing

20:08 min | 1 year ago

Thu. 05/14 - How To Beat COVID-19 and Save The Economy

"Welcome to the good news right home. I'm Jackson Bird today. Mental health concerns for children as the pandemic goes on the seven things. We can be doing to beat Kobe. Nineteen and save the economy. How our changed behavior has confused the Algorithms? Why humans freak out when they get lost and do interactive netflix special. To enjoy while you stay home this weekend starting today with a checking on numbers as we approach one point four million cases in the US worldwide. The death toll is expected to hit three hundred thousand in a matter of days. Almost three million people filed for unemployment claims in the US last week bringing the eight week. Total to thirty six million as concerns mounts over the possibly covert related. Inflammatory Syndrome. That we're seeing in children. They're also worries about other illnesses striking children during lockdown according to the UN they are predominantly preventable illnesses that progress as children are unable to receive care at overrun hospitals and also a spike in mental illness caused in part by the isolation from friends in school. Increased rates of depression anxiety and children have been reported in several countries and the World Health Organization warned in a report today that mental illness is expected to surge in severe ways across the board due to the quote isolation the fear the uncertainty the economic turmoil. But that those particularly at risk are children and healthcare workers. Mumbai is now responsible for twenty percent of all corona virus infections in India as the densely populated city of twenty million balances. One of the world's strictest stay at home orders with warming spring temperatures topping one hundred degrees Fahrenheit doubly concerning is that testing has been relatively sparse in India leading many to believe that the true number of cases might be much higher. Dozens of people died in Mexico over the weekend as locked down related bans on alcohol led to an influx of black market drinks many of which were tainted with methanol. Meanwhile Wisconsin's bars were crowded with people Wednesday night. After the state's Supreme Court ruled the stay at home order. Cvs is opening over fifty testing sites in Arizona Connecticut Florida Massachusetts and Pennsylvania. The sights will be drive through sites at the pharmacy windows where people who registered online beforehand will be given self swab testing kits by the end of the month. Cvs PLANS TO HAVE ONE THOUSAND. Such sights set up around the country. And Dr Rick Bright the former head of the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority warned Congress. This morning that quote the window is closing to have a standard centralized coordinated plan and that if we fail to act swiftly enough we might face quotes the darkest winter in modern history on the topic of avoiding that darkest winter in modern history. Vox spoke to a number of experts to synthesize the seven main things we can be doing here in the US to beat Kobe. Nineteen and save the Economy Number. One masks quotes a study by a team of five. Researchers out of Hong Kong and several European universities calculates that eighty percent of the population can be persuaded to don masks that would cut transmission levels to one twelfth of what you'd have in a mask list society end quote and an Interdisciplinary Yale. Research Team found quote. The benefits of each additional cloth mask worn by the public are conservatively in the three thousand. To six thousand dollar due to their impact in slowing the spread of the virus and quotes. So it's good for public health and good for the economy. The only problem. We still have a shortage of masks in this country to help. Caleb Watney from the street institute and Alex Stop From the Progressive Policy Institute suggests that the Federal Government pay above the pre-crisis market rate to give business owners confidence to invest. And if we don't end up needing as many as we produce they can be stockpiled for future health crisis or donated to a lower income country number to accelerate vaccine development. A number of epidemiologists vaccine specialists have begun. Advocating for human challenged trials in which volunteers are intentionally and consensually exposed to the virus instead of waiting for them to maybe be naturally exposed as usually happens in vaccine trials human challenge trials could speed up development of a successful vaccine by months two years but there is still the issue of Manufacturing Bill Gates and others are calling vaccines to start being produced before we know if they're safe or effective that way. The one that does work will be ready to go as soon as possible. Even if that means wasting a ton of money on vaccines that can't be used number three testing testing testing. In addition to just generally increasing the country's testing capacity we can also be using it in smarter ways. Economist Paul Romer suggests prioritizing not people who are experiencing symptoms. They should just assume they have it and self isolate but rather testing people more likely to spread the virus people who still have to go out of their homes for work and interact with other people they could be spreading to and those individuals experiencing symptoms need another kind of test that we should be expanding access to a pulse ox Zometa to monitor their blood oxygen levels and alert them if they need to go to the hospital number four contact tracing specifically hiring more people to conduct contact tracing officials have said that we need between one hundred to three hundred thousand people doing human contact tracing that is not just relying on digital tools but actually having people call up the contacts of anyone who tests positive and while that is a ton of people there's also a ton more people who've just recently lost their jobs and are looking for work. It's not always feasible to do in the middle of extreme outbreak but as the outbreaks slow it can help prevent more in the future number five halting household spread as we're starting to hear more and more people are getting sick at home specifically from roommates or family members they live with after one person brings the virus into the house suggestions. Like confining the ill person to one room aren't always possible or even faultless when they are like many Asian nations have successfully done if we really want to stop households bread. We need to consider facilities for people to isolate in outside of the home number. Six let people go outside as we discussed yesterday you were far more likely to catch the virus indoors rather than out quoting vox. Outdoor air is not magic and it is possible to inhale droplets from another person's mouth outside but the evidence seems to indicate that outdoor transmission is not in practice a huge problem. A study of more than one thousand confirmed Cova nineteen cases in other Chinese cities could only document one case of outdoor transmission and quotes allowing people to go to parks and other outdoor spaces with appropriate. Social distancing in place is good for physical health and also good psychologically to save bit of leeway that can be given so that people are more likely to follow lockdown measures instead of rebelling against them and finally number seven which can really be applied to all of the above is to spend the money box notes. That leading economists agree spending more money to keep individuals businesses and state and local governments. Afloat will be better for the economy in the long term quoting. Vox The interest rate. The federal government pays on its bonds is less than the expected rate of inflation. This means that even as debt reaches eye-popping levels it's actually relatively affordable for the government to go deeper into debt. And there's little reason to let financial concerns se. Stop the country from doing what's right for public health and quote. It turns out that our changed behavior during the last few months of the pandemic is confusing. Artificial intelligence models algorithms for marketing fraud detection management and more are experiencing blips in functioning and in some cases no longer working as they try to learn and keep up with our unpredictable new browsing and shopping habits quoting the MIT technology review machine. Learning models are designed to respond to changes but most are also fragile. They performed badly. When input data differs too much from the data? They were trained on. It's a mistake to assume you can set up. Ai System in walk away says Rajiv Sharma Global Vice. President at pact-era is a living breathing. Engine Sharma has been talking to several companies struggling with wayward AAI one company that supplies sauces and condiments to retailers in India. Needed help fixing. It's automated inventory management system. When bulk orders broke its predictive algorithms. The systems sales forecasts that the company relied on to reorder stock. No longer matched up with what it was actually selling. It was never trained on spike. Like this so the system was out of WACK SAYS SHARMA. Another firm uses an ai to assess the sentiment of news articles and provides daily investment recommendations based on the results but with the news at the moment being gloomier than usual. The advice was going to be very skewed says. Sharma and quotes the key factor. Here is that a lot of companies will buy machine learning systems but not have anyone in house who knows how to maintain them and Sharma said they often require that human touch especially when unexpected trends occur. Shurmur has an interesting suggestion though. He says that he is should be trained on unusual moments in history like the Great Depression or two thousand seven financial crisis. So they understand what to do in these situations and while that could help. You can't prepare for everything. Frasier a London based company that generates email marketing and ad copy using natural language processing and machine. Learning is used to having humans double check. Its work since natural. Language generation can so easily go wrong but they've had to implement a lot more safeguards the usual to strike the right tone for the moments quoting again. The company has banned specific phrases such as going viral and doesn't allow language that refers to discouraged activities such as party where it is even cold emojis. That might be ready to happy or too alarming. And it's also dropped terms that may stoke anxiety like Omg be prepared stock up and brace yourself and quotes and companies like Amazon are also tweaking. Their Algorithms to offset the workload on their employees while Amazon usually displays products it fulfils orders for itself as the top search results. It's switched to often displaying products from sellers who fulfil their own orders to ease the strain on their warehouses but quotes the tweaks Amazon makes to its algorithms then have knock on effects on the algorithms that sellers us to decide what to spend on online advertising every time a Web page with ads loads a superfast auction takes place where automated bidders decide between themselves. Who GETS TO EACH ADD box? The amount these algorithms decide to spend for an ad depends on a myriad of variables but ultimately the decision is based on an estimate of how much you the eyeballs on. The page are worth to them. There are a lot of ways to predict customer behavior including not only data about your past purchases but also the pigeonhole that ad companies have played you in on the basis of your online activity. But now one of the best predictors of whether someone who clicks on an ad will buy your product is how long you say it will take to deliver. It says Ray Al Klein. Ceo of nozzle A london-based consultancy specializing in Algorithm ick advertising for Amazon sellers. End Quote Klein. Also noted quote. The situation is so volatile. You're trying to optimize for toilet paper last week and this week everyone wants to buy puzzles or gym equipment and quotes overall client and say this is a wakeup call to a. Lotta businesses that you can't just turn on Algorithm and let it go you need data science team checking in on it and interpreting the fluctuations of our human world for it but you know. I guess it is good to know that we humans still wield some power over the machines. If you're looking for something to watch this weekend. Net flicks recently launched their latest interactive shows with a special episode of the unbreakable. Kimmy Schmidt a few of these choose your own adventure style shows before most notably with the Black Mirror bander snatch but also for a bear grylls special and a number of kids shows including Carmen Sandiego. The unbreakable kimmy. Schmidt is the first time that they've tried it with an adult comedy. The special is completely separate from the story. Lines of the show that wrapped up after four seasons last year. So you don't need to have watched the whole series to enjoy this special. So for the uninitiated Kimmy Schmidt played by Ellie. Kemper lived underground in a colt for most of her life before escaping to learn about the modern world in New York City with the help of a crew of eccentric friends. The show was created by Tina Fey and Robert Carlyle and this particular episode also guest stars Daniel Radcliffe as Royal Prince unlike black mirrors interactive episode. Kimmy SCHMIDT TAKE ON. It leans more into steering audiences towards the right choice to keep the plot going towards the ultimate conclusion. But it's still entertaining. When you make the wrong choice either by things going completely haywire or you end up getting a game over screen with one of the actors comically telling you why your choice was so wrong. It's Worthy Watch. If you're a KIMMY SCHMIDT FAN or if you're generally interested in the development of this interactive. Tv viewing trend. I feel like Netflix isn't quite there yet but it is really fascinating to watch. It develop especially as movie theater. Closures recently are making us all think even more about how we might innovate with streaming TV and film. This choose your own adventure. Experience might end up being like three D. MOVIES. Perennially popping up as a trend but never really being overly transformative or maybe it'll somehow revolutionized how we watch TV. Whatever happens the unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt? Is there for you now for your stay at home weekend? Viewing and finally today. Unless you're lucky enough to live near a hiking trail that's still open doesn't have too many people crowding it. You're probably not going out on any adventures right now that could lead to you getting lost. But if you've ever been lost before truly lost somewhere you know it's a terrifying feeling. In fact our fear of it is pretty much hard wired into our brains because we know evolutionary level that it rarely leads to good outcomes and the fear of being laws is pervasive throughout culture from Classic Tales to the Blair witch project. But why are we so scared of being lost? And why do we seem to lose our reason so much when we are writer? Michael Bond Explores these questions in his new book from here to there the art and science of finding and losing our way which just came out on Tuesday and was excerpted in wired and he has some pretty fascinating insights. I wanted to share so when people get lost. One of the curious things is that we tend to move around to keep trying to find our way back to safety when really experts have said for centuries the best method is to stay still a desert explorer in the early nineteen. Hundreds Ralph Bagnall remembered being struck by a strange powerful impulse to keep driving when he got lost in the Western Desert in Egypt. He said of the experience later this psychological effect has been the cause of nearly every desert disaster of recent years. If one can stay still even for half an hour and have a meal or smoke a pipe reason returns to work out the problem of location and quote. What's interesting too is that we don't just move around. In one direction. People inevitably end up going in circles. It's not just an overdone trope from stories even military experts and scientists who are well aware of this phenomenon have found themselves walking in circles when they've become lost quoting again circling happens where there are no prominent landmarks a cellphone master adultery for example or spatial boundaries offense or line of hills and where all the vistas looked similar without a fixed reference point. We can drift view of the sun or the moon can help. Keep US grounded though. The Sun is a dangerous guide. If you're not aware of how it moves across the sky. One popular theory blames body a symmetry we all have one leg longer than the other which can cause us to veer. But this doesn't explain why some people veer both ways depending on where they are and quotes in an experiment conducted in two thousand nine tracking volunteers using GPS monitors as they attempted to walk in a straight line through the Sahara. Desert and Germany's involved forest not a single volunteer managed to do so. At least not when the sun wasn't visible quote errors quickly accumulated small deviations became large ones and they ended up walking in circles. The study concluded that with no external cues to help them. People will not travel more than one hundred meters from their starting position regardless of how long they walked for and quote apart from circling people lose their sense of reason and reality in multiple ways. They're thinking become segmented frantic sometimes even delusional often when people are found they have trouble remembering much of what happened while they were lost quotes. Lost is a cognitive state. Your internal map has become detached from the external world. And nothing in your spatial memory matches what you see but at its core. It's an emotional states. It delivers a psychic double-whammy. Not only are you stricken with fear you also lose your ability to reason you suffer. What neuroscientist Joseph do calls a hostile takeover of consciousness by emotion? It's essentially a panic attack if you're lost out in the woods there's a chance you will die. That's pretty real. You feel like you're separating from reality stories of people walking translate past search parties. Were running off in having to be chased down and tackled are part of search and Rescue. Lor End quote. Charles Morgan a forensic psychiatrist at the University of new haven. Connecticut says this is akin to how most of US behave. When we're highly anxious. He calls it seen the trees rather than the forest the thinking about how behavior when lost relates to times. When as Morgan says we're feeling highly anxious makes me think about how many of us may be feeling a little lost emotionally right now. Even while we're physically in one place one place that's hopefully reassuring at least in its familiarity quoting once more from the excerpt which again is from the new book from here to there the art and science of finding and losing our way by Michael Bond. What does are powerful response to being lost to tell us about our relationship with space for one thing. It shows us how important it is for us to be grounded in the physical reality and to have a sense of place however much time we spend in our digital worlds. We still need to know where we are. Where we are has a big impact on how we feel places can frighten and excite us and make us feel safe cognitive maps atlases of feelings as much as geometry. Let's all we've got for you today. This show was produced by ride home media. I'm Jackson Bird. I hope you have a good rest of your day. I'll talk to you tomorrow.

US Kimmy Schmidt Engine Sharma India netflix Amazon Michael Bond World Health Organization UN Cvs Mumbai Inflammatory Syndrome Charles Morgan Supreme Court Mexico Wisconsin Bill Gates Paul Romer
AI Today Podcast: AI and Healthcare, Interview with Gil Alterovitz, Director of AI at the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)

AI Today Podcast: Artificial Intelligence Insights, Experts, and Opinion

26:56 min | 11 months ago

AI Today Podcast: AI and Healthcare, Interview with Gil Alterovitz, Director of AI at the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)

"The AI Today podcast produced by cosmetica cuts through the hype and noise to identify what is really happening now in the world of artificial intelligence learn about emerging Trends Technologies and use cases from Cardinal Indica analysts and get experts. Hello and welcome to the AI Today podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Mulch. And I'm your host Wireless melzer. Our Guest today is Gil. Robots who is the director of artificial intelligence at the Department of Veterans Affairs and with the national AI institut. Hi Gail. Thank you so much for joining us on a i today. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me on the show. Yeah, and thanks for joining us. We'd like to start by having you introduce yourself to our listeners. Tell them a little bit about your background and your current role at the VA. I certainly so that's my background is had a doctoral degree from this joint program at Harvard in Massachusetts Institute of Technology MIT that kind of focused on AI applications in medicine and then became a Harvard Medical School faculty focusing on that integration and my dad actually had worked at Nasa. So I've been really interested in EM Mission related activities and the VA really has a great Mission and I you know, I guess I really had a chance to see that mission over when I was a White House presidential Innovation fellow program being a fellow in that program. I had a chance to work with the VA and really learn about the ignition. And so now working on AI and building that research and development capacity at that VA at the VA and through the new National artificial intelligence Institute. They're really start a few months ago has been really, you know, really inspiring I think because it's really nice. It really makes chemical very big difference for the veterans by supporting the veteran priorities and there's a lot of aspects of working together birth. Across the different parts of the VA that are really fulfilling. Yeah, I think that's great and thing and and you know, maybe our listeners are new to the fact that there is a National Institute and and may may not even be aware of the fact that exist. In fact that it's actually headquartered of the Department of the Veterans Affairs. So maybe you can talk a little bit about the national artificial intelligence Institute at the VA and what it is and of course kind of why it's important with it. Yes, certainly. Yeah, so it really what do you think about the VA is really it has this unique opportunity in the country for a research to be developed and and translated into clinical care of quickly to help the special population of veterans. It's it's got the largest Integrated Medical record system in in the country. It's and it's got the juice largest genomic data collection and the patient's really asked us to deal with their needs and to to prioritize on that work. And so what I'm doing with the national artificial intelligence Institute at the VA is working to build that capacity that capacity to do research and development for these parties of the idea of working on different Partnerships Partnerships, which may involve other organizations outside the VA as well, and yep. About collaborations and really enable leveraging of cutting-edge AI artificial intelligence in order to do that as well as working on different policies and off other areas that can help Advance this this field so we can think about the V really can be essentially a go to place for veterans through a I'm a research and development. We can really help Pioneer this approach where we can anticipate the needs of the veterans through the use of artificial intelligence and deal with those health and well-being issues to improve the lives of of the of the veterans and which has applications across the country. Yeah, you know, thank you so much for that overview. I know that a lot of people probably interested in digging deeper into that and just learning more and following that as well. We were fortunate enough to have you deliver a keynote during our data for AI week virtual off. For instance took place that in September of 2020 for our listeners that were not able to maybe attend that live you're thinking and maybe didn't get to attend your keynote package for those listeners that may not yet have been able to walk that and as a reminder it is available for replay so you can go to a data a icon, that's data wage and watch any of the sessions that were presented during the conference either live or on-demand or free that'll be up through the end of the year. So we encourage you to go back but for our listeners that haven't been able to watch that yet. Could you share some insights into the you know, what was delivered maybe some high-level high-level overview of what you were test. Oh certainly super-smelly was a great conference a really encourage everyone to see a number of the talks. So we're at that conference and was a it was a pleasure beyond that so often in my particular keynote what we talked about was the national artificial intelligence Institute as essentially as a use case and how it builds on some of the principles of the American voter initiatives and the national artificial intelligence research and development strategic plan of 2019 for the United States. And what we do is we we outlined how we're working with an AI passports within the VA on developing a strategy and getting that that actual veteran input through a veteran engagement board. And so using those elements combined with analyzing technical feasibility. We've also been able to outline these five fundamental Key areas of AI in applications in health and well-being. And so in that talk I go a little bit more into those five areas just to kind of tease them out there Thursday around deep learning trustworthy artificial intelligence privacy-preserving artificial intelligence explainable artificial intelligence and final multi-scale artificial intelligence analysis. These are five areas that we explore in the in the talk and these are five areas of life. We have found potential to be a trends that will the trends are leading these areas to potentially have a religion Major Impact by further developing these areas and applying them around the priorities that we're identifying for for the population and Thursday. Actually, we also talked a little bit about the new high-tech Sprint, which is starting soon. And the applications are actually now open for that. We ever very successful Sprint last year and that's been around setting up these collaborations and potential future Partnerships with industry non-profits Academia and others around data in research and development that's going on at the VA. We also work with other agencies and other data sources in the future in the in the past around different themes last year. The theme was around clinical trial search and matching in this year. The theme around interventions for veterans that are not currently being served by the VA those that maybe have not been engaged in the healthcare system and that they're dead. Maybe ways of helping them around areas of Health well-being and or are related areas. And so that those are kind of the overall topics and Thursday if you'd like to learn more, of course, I believe the keynote is still up there so you can listen and Yeah, it's definitely interesting and we do encourage our listeners listening. And of course the thing about all of our online conferences, of course all conferences are online these days is that it's free to attend. So, you know, and with the sessions are usually up for multiple months after the conferences are over cuz we know that you know, people are busy and working from home and you know life is different these days and you want to give people the opportunity to check them out. So we do encourage you to check it out against data AI Khan dat aai conf, and look for a girl alternative. It says keynote presentation off our sessions and you can definitely take a look at it and even some ways to interact with some information about the speakers are are there so you can reach out if you have any questions so really really thanks so much for giving us a feedback. Sorry a preview of the what you had talked about for those who haven't had a chance to check it out. So, you know, our listeners are around the world and their wage From kind to know folks who are perhaps in different Industries. Some of them are a lot of them say the private sector and the public sector and Academia. They're they're across the board and they may not be familiar with home of the scope of what happens at the Department of Veterans Affairs and the VA and just in general and maybe they're not even aware of sort of like the scale and size of the VA as a health care institution. So and and make sure that that will provide a little of insight because there's some interesting things that that you're doing with a i in the VA. So maybe you can share with a some ways in which you're leveraging AI or or maybe even looking to change to benefit veterans the VA and just Healthcare in general for those that are not familiar with the VA as an institution. Certainly. So there's a number of areas that is being leveraged, you know a few months ago. I was reviewing some of the different projects and there are literally hundreds of projects that in some way are leveraging artificial intelligence and it's not trying to think of what are some of the you know are their their civic types of examples and you know, so let me just kind of share with you a couple of that come to mind. There's you know, I think these are kind of interesting in a couple of months. So the first one is about you know, there's work that's on going to create the screen work whereby artificial intelligence research and development can be integrated into modules that would work in a clinical system. So as I mentioned before the VA being the largest integrated healthcare system in the country has hundreds of medical centers wage. Thousands of different facilities across the country. How do you any uses a similar medical record system across different sites, but you can develop if you have something with artificial intelligence that can help veterans or you know population in one site. It can quickly be deployed in many sites. And so we're working on developing a framework, whereby if people have a particular method that can work in in one in one type of application. It can be used quickly and piloted across a number of different locations for that for health and well-being in this particular case. This was around covid-19. If someone has a positive genomic tests for covid-19, what is their prognosis and so a dashboard report has been developed around that and that. Now being looked at being tested and getting user feedback and then piloting and so in developing that you got was or particular application. We developed in such a way that that framework could be used and replicated for other types of AI modules in the feature that researchers are people are developing different approaches could quickly plug in that other type of algorithm algorithm and and try that for a different type of application. So we're home that day. I talked to go another example mentioned the AI the AI Tech screen little while ago that we had one last year was about to start a new one right now where the applications are currently open. And and in the last year there was actually a tool created by this non-profit organization that basically seems to impart veterans to search page. Clinical trials, you know actually including covert related ones and what what it does is it leverages deep learning one of those five areas that I mentioned that we go over a little more detail in the keynote and it uses that to analyze the text of all the clinical trial eligibility criteria to know which trials to be a seat for that bedroom given their clinical information and elaborate ages. These means that were developed by God by the VA to actually access to enable a veteran to access their own clinical information. And so that is then leveraged in order to on of course consent of ordering to find the trials that match the clinical eligibility criteria and their medical records information so that they can get the trial that's best for them so long the past, you know, traditionally move happens, you know, the person would go in and they would have to either call in or kind of rely on their physician and caregivers and and this isn't to take away from that but really to augment that to empower individuals to look for trials and on their own see what's out there and then really essential is a Showcase of how you can leverage deep learning and AI to combine different piece information information coming from the VA around that clinical information right with the veteran log to get their clinical information and then information on clinical trials, which actually also comes from the Federal Government Federal Government from other other departments within the federal government, whether it be the NIH National Institutes of Health or other parts of the government that have information about the Dead Trials that are ongoing into given a point in time. So those are two examples of you know, one is around as mentioned the spring work enabling I research and development to be integrated to modules that I work well with a clinical system so you could go quickly from developing something to actually getting it to helping the the patients that Thursday we're here to serve and then the second around how we're enabling through Partnerships other organizations turn power to empower the popular package to to use artificial intelligence in a way that also promotes health and well-being through use of artificial intelligence. That was great. I know, you know Willy always like to hear how may I is used within different agencies and different departments. And I think that people can learn from that, you know, whether or not we're in the government or not. You can learn you know, this can be applied to Healthcare in general. And so we always like to hear when when you know different people are fearing these exams as well so much so that brown and I put a year-and-a-half have been running the AI in government event. So as always that's a free to attend event. It's now gone virtual like everything else. So if anybody would like to check that out go to in government, we have a different speaker every month who will promote or you know, and share and showcase how they are using artificial intelligence. So we encourage you all to check that out. We also have a bonus episode coming up with Gayle as well. So we're very excited for that. I'll make sure to link to that in the show notes so that everybody can log Listen to that will be digging a little bit deeper in there talking about some challenges with adopting Ai and Healthcare and then what the VA is doing to help develop an AI ready Workforce. I know that some of these are really hot topics right now and we're excited to dig deeper with that in our bonus episode. But before we wrap up this main podcast, I always like to end with this question for all of our guests as a final note. What do you believe the future of AI is in general and its application to organizations governments and Beyond. Well, I think let me start by first thing that the future of AI is definitely bright some of the the first areas where I think we'll be able to see benefits are around increasing productivity and efficiency to really augment humans in their decision-making processes. So not you know, not replacing but more often engine adding additional information so that people can take and analyze information that otherwise they may not have been able to you know, no person can read through the clinical notes of you know, millions of patients to be able to understand how their patient is different from all the other patients or how similar but a computer a computer can take that summarize that information make recommendations that then the physician or other caregiver they decide to use or maybe decide not to use so they're they're really a lot of dead. Crossed keys that I think can benefit from AI some from basic areas like a forms processing. There's some of that going on at the VA as well and notating wage images these maybe images such as a clinical images whether it be a radiology pathology a number of different areas there as often should process in clinical notes also promising area because it's really there's just so much information there to analyze there's certainly some technical challenges ahead in terms of computing resources that are needed for scaling for analyzing all that information. And also I think importantly there's this area of ensuring seamless integration into existing workflows. I think really hard not to I mean really can't emphasize that enough that ensuring that Integrations existing workflows is a way that you age Make sure that it's adopted that that partition zones is is used in adopted if it's not integrated into the workflows then positions or caregivers are are less likely to adopt and leverage that new technology. They're also issues around ethics in artificial intelligence that that are being looked at proactively so important to take a look at those areas and to really understand them before we take and develop mechanisms that made me involved different complex issues that wage is there and then some of the issues that are unique to artificial intelligence and some that, you know, we can see in general for any new technology but there are some that are unique to artificial intelligence but in any case, um, you know AI is most likely it's more, you know, it's most likely to be adopted birth. We're ready to be adopted. Once it is encapsulated in a in a tool or a programmer or some means we're expertise actually not required to use it. So essentially making it user-friendly is very important. So just as today, we actually are starting to see artificial intelligence used across the number of different means whether it be social media applications, you know, whenever you get a friend suggestion that can leverage I mean artificial intelligence or whether it be mapping software or maybe predicting the best route to a different location best road to take under the given traffic conditions and other tools those essentially encapsulate the office underneath and so they're friendly easy to use and you don't need the expertise to use it but to do that you need to have kind of a couple of different layers and that wage What is I see now being worked on within this field? So not only developing the actual best methods that you know, basically the ones that image of the mapping software give you the fastest route to your destination, but also one that are friendly and easy to use so that you can you know, listen to it and and decide what action to take off on that. So in summary, there's a lot of potential applications and I see a number of organizations looking at leveraging it and really the key off to take the next jump in the next week or word is all around adoption and to do that. It's important to proactively be thinking about ethics be thinking about issues wage. You're talking with the keynote around explainable or official intelligence so that the user understands why the algorithm is making a prediction certain way so they can decide if they would like to age Use that or not and be comfortable in the decision that they make and all of these in able to take the next step. So I think that's kind of a quick summary. Okay, great. Well, we definitely are enthusiastic about adoption to I mean that's actually much of the reason why we spend our time on these podcasts as well as Rai and government events, which for those of us who are listeners to this podcast may or may not know we also run a regular monthly online event series called AI in government where we spend time talking with folks in the public sector not just here in the US but across the world we've had Lord Tim Clement Jones from the UK House of Lords. We've had many folks, of course from US federal agencies. We also have state and local and you know just different folks and and and it's interesting to hear how AI is impacting the public, you know, the public sector that you know governments that you deal with, you know, every part of birth. I feel and and really contributing to it. I think it's an interesting to have this perspective. Of course, we spend a lot of our time talking to folks in Industry as well, you know banking ensuring my finance Healthcare retail automotive and pharmaceutical and all those other interests Industries in between right? But but then of course, you know the motives a lot of the motives for folks are putting in a i in to say a business are different than the motives for government, you know governments about serving the constituents and and making things more efficient and more effective and not necessarily about the bottom line, right? So it's always interesting to have that other perspective and to see how AI is being adopted even when things like profit is not the motive, you know, not about getting rid of people for example, people always think about that long and that's of course not the motivation from for most governments. We've talked to folks even governments out in in Norway. We've had a city manager for as low talking to us and you know clearly they're not Scandinavian. Since aren't motivated at all even in the government sectors, they don't treat it like business. So it's really really very great insights. And so Gil I want to thank you so much for joining us here on this podcast and sharing your insights. And of course, we'll have you on for our bonus episodes as well. So for those of you who are listening, please go to AI today. Live so you can see the bonus episodes that are here for the pockets in the meantime. Thank you so much for sharing us here on the AI Today podcast and thank you very much for helping me on it's been a pleasure and looking forward to seeing all the various other podcasts that are coming out great. Thanks so much Gil and listeners. If you've enjoyed listening to this podcast, please make sure to write us on iTunes Google Spotify or your favorite podcast platform as always will post any artistic Concepts discussed in the show notes including the link to Gil's keynote at the data for a i comp. Thanks for listening and we'll catch you at the next podcast and that's a wrap for today to download this app. Episode find additional episodes and transcripts subscribe to our newsletter and more please visit our website at Coggin join the discussion in between podcasts on the Facebook group and make sure to join the cognetic a Facebook page for updates on this and future podcasts also subscribe to our podcast in iTunes Google Play and elsewhere to get notified of future episodes want to support this podcast and get your message out to our listeners, then become a sponsor we offer significant benefits for AI today's sponsors including promotion in the podcast and landing page an opportunity to be a game on The Today Show for more information on sponsorship visit the Cog political website and click on the podcast link this sound recording and its content is copyright by cognate. Litica All Rights Reserved music by Matsu Carrabba's as always. Thanks for listening to a guy today and we'll catch you at the next podcast.

VA national artificial intelligen AI VA AI Today Kathleen Mulch Harvard in Massachusetts Insti National artificial intelligen National Institute Department of the Veterans Aff Department of Veterans Affairs melzer Sprint Gil Harvard Medical School Federal Government Federal Gov NIH National Institutes of Hea Gail MIT Nasa
117: Delight Your Customers And Futureproof Your Brand With Personalized Customer Experiences At Scale

eCommerce Fastlane - Shopify - Shopify Plus - E-Commerce - Ecommerce Business

33:33 min | 10 months ago

117: Delight Your Customers And Futureproof Your Brand With Personalized Customer Experiences At Scale

"Welcome to season three of ecommerce lane episode one hundred and seventeen. Welcome to e commerce. Fast lane the podcast so to help you. Build launch and scale a wildly successful with ecommerce company. Listen to real conversations. With proven practical strategies and solutions stories learn how to generate more traffic more sales more profit and customer lifetime value for your shop. If i store and now your host and ecommerce entrepreneur. Steve heights this episode is brought to you by grin. The number one influence marketing software solution. That's built for direct to consumer brands on shop affi- they're an all in one relationship management platform that helps you cultivate an authentic influence or network and more valuable brand from discovering outreach to campaign management grin streamline your workflow removing the busy work. We'll give you the tools to help you growth and scale your program from influence. Recruitment communication products seating discount codes and affiliate links including content and rights management sales and tracking and influence or payments grin helps. You do with all smart rand's truly understand that creating an emotional connection with your consumer drives up lifetime value because what you end up doing is building a stronger brand you creep. Die hard fans who come back and purchase from the again and again it starting today with grin and make the most of your influence marketing program with the all in one platform. That's designed to help you build. More authentic brand boosting relationships. Go check them out at grin. Dot co either stephen. Welcome back to the e. Commerce faslane podcasts. Now this is your first time listening. This is an ecommerce show where we have honest and transparent conversations about building and thriving with your store powered by shop affi- shop five plus new episodes available each week with your favorite podcast player through apple. Podcast stitcher google play and spotify or you can also sign up online at ecommerce. Fastlane dot com and be notified when a new show is being released. Guessing as episode is at san marino. Who's the co founder and cmo from heyday. They're an end to end conversational commerce solution that helps shop a five merchants scale their sales and their support teams through a automation and exciting times for the heyday team. The even got partnered up with shop affi- through their pinned division to roll out some of their enterprise grade. Ai chat features directly for shoplifting. Merchants so really exciting. Very timely episode were kind of pre bfce. Emory now like to welcome at the end of the show and welcome. Hi steve thanks so much for having me today on your show dan so yeah so i mean i can talk a little bit about the hey Yet another question as an intro. Yeah so what lily. Typically on a high level like what does hey do and what problems does it solve for shop if i star owners. Yes so as you mentioned in the indian show Were a conversational commerce platform. Which is kind of a buzzword right. So what does it mean. while for us it means adding layer on top of traditional light. Chat helped us to really help. Shop by stores scaler teams overnight away and boost sales in customer satisfaction as a result by having the scaled through really gator to each and every site visitor with one to one conversations so our hybrid solution as i mentioned leverage is in a chat as a first line of support catcher in engaged leads in answering the most frequently asked questions lake or detracting return policy shipping related questions broad surge. The usual suspects right and then art bought in redirect the most qualified leads or the most sensitive complex conversations journal teams when necessary. So that way customers will always getting an answer to their questions fast whether it's instantly in self service mode with job or by being directly connected to the right product expert on the merchants team so yeah. Our platform is really bill for ecommerce. That's our dna. So we integrate deeply with your shot Catalogue which enables again both the chat bot in your team. The sheriff products enclosed the sale directly inside the conversation so we believe like helping the new selling as we like to stay so we built our platform. The intersection of customer service sales that specific vision in mind. Beautiful love it. So let's talk about the founders. Journeys usually a question to ask. Because i'm always fascinated and like why people build what they builds are able to talk about. What uniquely positions you in the founding team. I guess a couple points number one to have the desire and number two to have the expertise to want to create this platform. Yeah there's a lot to see her. So i'll try to be brief but We have a very diverse founding team. Our dna sits at the intersection of retail gaming marketing. I come from the agency. World having worked with big iconic retail brands like adidas home depot. lexus Coca cola mcdonald's etc enslow always been deeply interested in our brains can more meaningfully connect with customers online which let's be honest like until premature much now e wasn't really a personal experience much more of a one size fits all right so that's really my in my area of interest in our. Cto was director of technology at light speed. So as you know. E commerce retail focused company and on the flip side are. Ceo's engineer also was the head of product at ub solves. All gimme station in personalization gaming so ucla. The diverse people. And when you put all of that in the blender while you get a common denominator of creating these engaging customer experiences at scale where gaming in retailer marketing so conversationally. I really felt like there was an opportunity to make as i mentioned ecommerce more personal and turning these usually brian experiences or more like a monologue right. The branches like talking to you but nothing listening to you so ruins shiva parrot on entering into a dialogue because at the end of the day. When you think bud conversations have always been at the heart of commerce. I mean pretty much the donald civilization right so would he covered to main shopping interface. It's really important to bring that human touch online and really conversation is cornerstone of this more personalized shopping experience. So yeah then say. We agree all that nice vision and philosophy but the merchants don't always have the bandwidth the managed the sheer volume of incoming visitors and requests especially nowadays explosion of econ coin nineteen. So that's where really comes into play right helping. Augment shalva five merchant sales and support teams and give them the extra capabilities in a way to engage customers on a personal level but at scale with a scale that's required for global brand he. I think it's interesting when you come to a site. That is powered by heyday and the chat solution. Typical right hand corner for most but it starts to engage and let them know that we're here to help usually with a necessary a couple different recommendations of like why you might be there today. That kind of opens up the dialogue so to speak with the brand or the person on the brand's website saying hey i'm looking for looking for a track number looking for support looking for surveys looking for a product you can really tailor the language of what's to being presented to the site visitor right from the beginning and help engage with them as needed. But you're right as they work through that tree or this aai framework then all of a sudden okay. No this is a little more complex where he can't be handled directly. Let's get an actual agent. Let's get some on. That can actually co brand and start selling together. So i think it's quite interesting. Yeah to your point. i mean. We're all about enhancing internal teams not replacing them right. We wanna keep it means for the high value interactions and just automate the rest automated redundant stuff. So we're not looking to automate everything we don't believe in that so i understand so far like you mentioned that your platform is more of a hybrid so like on one side. You have this. Ai powered chat bought. That's kind of. I guess we're gonna call it the first line of defense or first line of support then. There's the back office chat app for the agents for team members. So are we able to dive a little deeper into. I guess the conversational ai capabilities. I'm just curious to know more about kind of what's under the hood and how all of this all comes together. Well here's i level right. So pretty much is private when you were describing the experience on site that there's an incoming requests from a customer coming eater directly on yourself defy side via the web chat or via other messaging channels like facebook messenger whatsapp and even now inside google maps. You can text like nearby businesses so these requests coming from different angles channels are instantly processed by chad bought. Thanks to natural language processing and the gold aristander stand in microseconds customers intent. And what they're looking for and to search database for products or answers from the faq instance the final relevant answer to the question if the degree of confidence is really high. Enough will then. You're a as trump advice store. Your your dad bought your virtual rep will offer an answer microseconds if not holders to alternators right number one customers can also use as you mentioned the kind of visual decision tree with buttons and cards and be guided dissuaded finding their answering self service mode or began the don't find a satisfactory answer. It again escalated request. You in agents on the brand side and our app aggregates all the channels under one roof in triage them. So once the agent emergency team completes a conversation oursel- and marks it at it goes back to the Ongoing dance with full visibility for the brands when the agent thinks over the full transcript see were on the site. The customer was so the full context to be relevant in Confession to that base. And so it's it's really a hybrid dance in a way of man and machine and just providing the best of both worlds be able to offer at twenty four seven know. Vip level of service at skjei Capabilities like you know. We only have half hours. I don't want to tell you what may let's maybe on the core stuff. So as i mentioned earlier we were built for retail and ecommerce context. So the i eighty a has been pre-training with thousands of variations of retail specific customer intends to be able to answer a wide range of ethic us on demand other important aspect which is very dear to our heart in the also should by community working in company so the multi-lingual aspect was very important for us in our clients from the get-go you heard in the indian show. My name is it's yan so that's a french name so our. Ai is bilingual out of the box. In can switch languages mid conversation so the i can understand and recognize language of preference preference in switch in real time. So that's interesting for a more global audience not just locals global in paris in france for example with a bunch of clients so english french available out of the box in for salva fi a corner stores and more enterprise blinds. We even ask no customers. We servants banish Or even indonesian. That's pretty much what it is beautiful in. Well i think interesting. You made a comment about the self serve model. And i think that's quite interesting because it reminds me of the returns and exchange business where someone comes to the site. It's the wrong size the wrong color and they want to exchange. It seems they just don't need to speak to somebody and typically having the right partner sat up with your shopping by store to facilitate an exchange or refund and printing labels and just that whole process. I'm people just want to talk to people. They want to go and efficiently do it themselves. And that's why like about heydays that you're right with either pre revealed buttons of some of the best practices and things that a lot of people are looking for him and we can look into the dan lyrics and the data and say well. What are people doing with the automation portion of it and can reveal more of that and make it easier for them to discover on the flip side and the back office is a lot of stuff going on to really help recommend where the customers need for other product or at exit scanning the faq's revealing some information of these pre written things. That people are looking for. I think it's really really exciting. W like help customers help themselves. I mean people are looking for speeding convenience and also for personalization so Deliver you know both sides without some level of automation you will never be able to scale your team be debonair. I you know manpower or woman power to do that so they were all about. We started more on the enterprise side with bigger brands. More like the plus merchant equivalent right and our really in the process of of working more than modifies packages of these features these automation features rice. So they can get the same level of capabilities or at least similar level. Give now. I'm part of the merger success team at shop if i plus and all of us on this team were very familiar with you know some of the popular. Crm's that are out there. Being gorgeous or customer zen desk these are some of the. I guess some of the major players in the shop ecosystem and i've recommended them too many merchants that i manage and so how do you differentiate with them and or other chat providers that are available in the shop of ecosystem. Very good questions steve. I mean happy you ask is a it can be complex space at face value. So it's good to unpack it so we we actually don't see gorges. Fresh deaths lab chat anger customer or any other life chat i platform as competitors because we're built differently for different use gays often find. We're seeing is that some merchantable start with one of these apps or solutions to get. The conversation started on a website which honesty is a good thing. We believe in the power of chat boost sales and satisfaction so we can be against that but as soon as they open up the channel and therefore the floodgates while it started getting flooded require so you typically see is one of the things that are happening one they either need to staff up to meet the demand or are already gonna stretcher teams thin in offer as a result a subpar service with delays or. The second thing that we often see is literally just uninstalled. Jet widget is overwhelm. Which is unfortunate because at the end of the daily the customers on the losing it. Right so heyday positions itself differently. Were more Chat up because we deploy that ai powered chat. Bot as you mentioned on top of it. I would say that usually these other names you mentioned are more leave. Qualifiers for us they. Merchants are dabbling in the compositional. Space would more of a traditional help desk than the upgrade the heyday afterwards. So we're trying offering the best of both worlds right the same capabilities. Unlike jet side with a dvd congress integrations but on top of it as we talked about at length decomposition component which ultimately the goal is to free up your team of all the requests and help you focus on what matters sales not if accused read. You wanna grow your business. You don't want to spend your time playing repeating yourself So that's really what we're all about. That's why like again against enough like it's a really great time for us. You chatting because we came on the enterprise bigger brands and now really. We're just released our at the marketplace or starting to release some packages of these audition features to help smaller merchants lately. Big brains that scale that capability. Yeah it's a nice pivot. Because i'm thinking i noticed that you were i. Guess a recent staff pick on the shop marketplace in europe. And i think that's amazing to be vetted and just i don't know just public recognition about the quality of the you're releasing and so how is heydays growth in europe like y. Do you think that it's so strong across the pond offers all. Thanks so much for your your kind of i mean were after you know. We're lucky to count amazing technology partner on shellfire demon She's based in germany She's actually a french-canadian as well. So i guess there's a synergy there but she hasn't been really great for us bring champion for us on if side in in the broader ecommerce community in europe. Actually in fact like she she recently said in a joint webinar with the mercy. A-plus merchant in one of our clients. That heyday was the best jab. She seen seven years since she's as a child five so obviously it made me wash and it's really nice service with a team because uses a great ballet shin for for all the work we've put in and again imagine she's really the one Like reach you really like amplified our message in in europe and and then it helps us reaches staff big status and partly also like obviously great relationships with sherifi fi which is enabling the little guys like us. But i think the fact mentioned early the bilingual on the fact that our is bilingual out of the box really have more affinities. I would say french. Speaking countries like canada and france as a result. And that's why you know. Retail brands are an ecommerce brands at choosing us as a result in latin Leveraging this moment to give a special shout Great folks chocolate by wigan has been instrumental success. But i'm just thinking right now of cities kenmore vp of product. Or even michael barone ellen ellen down from michael's knowing south of five was really instrumental in opening doors for us giving us the access to api integrating deeply with guys so And now are pants over overseeing the shelf i chat strategies all these great folks. I mean we really needed that. They're buying support tab. The the big company not always like to say we're trying to stand on the shoulders of giants so for us. It's been invaluable for success. We're very grateful that the shelf. I backing in that regard. The ads fantastic great. I love a great early. Success is obvious that you're solving a lot of pains for a lot of brands scale. And i think that's fantastic that you're going down that journey. So let's dig a little bit into some of. I guess i call them. Kpi's our roi metrics definitely like to and probably have a sweet spot more on the plus side and you have some smb opportunities and packages available for the smaller startup. Aside but it seems that you know a product can really mature itself and really really really show its value more at scale typically. Those are the plus merchants that have lots of traffic and lots of support requests from customers. So maybe just so. The audience can better get grasp of kind of the value. That you know that. Hey days bringing to a shop of five plus merchant with opinion degration. We went into more downstream in the end. We had lake almost thousand downloads in a few weeks since we released but as you pointed out like our sweet spot is definitely for the fast growing. Shalva fire merchant was looking to really scale up their operation overnight so plus sweaters for us and i can give you a few examples. I mean for all right off the bat Mercy handy in. France is also popeye's Supplements in canada we recently organiz shop affi- masterclass in france and mercy andean and the numbers are still fresh in my mind and when cohen nineteen hit is on explosion in online traffic in sales of a thousand percent so again imagine all overwhelmed or customer. Service team became like pretty much overnight. that's why we put in place together at chat bots alleviate that pressure and reduce the burden of us and the result was instant instant thirty percent reduction in customer service requests in the first few weeks of implementation. I buckle popeye supplements in canada. Will these is the. Gm told me that hey album reduce the cs team. Only one person by automating more than fifty percent of all the customer service requests. So it's great is that he can now refocus his staff on sales instead of just like copy pasting answers and as boost sales As kind of collateral or like a second order of consequence helped boost sales as well. I mean had a few examples but maybe like a lastly foti food so i'm sure order tracking for a lot of the people are listening is that is more than ever nordea liga big burden so for forty foods. That's really focused on since we implemented are automated order tracking feature on recite the reduction the thirty five percent in the overall volume of customer service requests. So you can imagine again game changer. For a small animal team right now. Yeah that's awesome. Thanks for sharing those stories because a lot of people listening today would be you know. All over the map they could be early stage or mid market enterprise rollover and it's nice to be able to hear different types of products being you know food. Cg products In fashion apparel companies. I mean it just seems there's lots of value out there instead of having to tax your customer service team as you said with copying and pasting a lot of things. That's a really good That this service is available now so speaking of covid nineteen it's definitely accelerated almost call it digital transformation for a lot of retail clients of one's lot of your own clients so are able to some takeaways so far are there any key shifts or any type of features that you believe are in high demand right now as were in the middle of this pandemic always. We spoke at length about the explosion of customer service demand. So that's definitely like the first impact of the crisis. The traffic is going on most sites as a result while customer service requests as well as proportional right so i actually wrote a blog post about it on the shelf by partners blog. Where is you know tentatives to help merchants phase that that that surge in demand in a automation is definitely highly in the men right now because he need overnight pretty much scale your team and how can you give them a bit of a breeder while the only ways to augment benguet so you can eat her staff up. Hire more folks Start introducing automation to remove the low value tasks. The biggest shift in. Probably the most enduring one while is all businesses from the small mom and pop shop. You know the two people operation to the big box retailer. All of them now are e commerce. I and i mean there's reason why shop advice stock instead hot right now right so even your your ceo. Toby luke gale was said that at the beginning of the pandemic. the future of retail arrived ten years early. And that's not just a sensational statements. Actually effect he's right in a massive migration long overdue opinion. That's having right now. So retailers with physical stores will lead to find a way to keep salam spidey store closures and a steep decline in store traffic as a result. remote selling or descend selling is becoming a key. Part of the transformation and heyday has been at the heart of it because our ad is perfect for those kansas scenario. So i'm repeating myself a little bit. But just people we understand fully dissolution will our chat bots. The first line of defense ornamented of qualification of leads of sales with captured engages leads. And then he can book in store or online appointments would still associates can take the conversation either via text messaging or video chat to sell from a distance. The big question. Vic john right now how can you bring these conversations online or in other words. Bring your store if you have bricks. Bring your store in shop irs. And that's the big giant. It's going to be an enduring one because what we describe these virtual consultation while it's much more convenient much more efficient and as a result having much more personalized e commerce experiences never had before. So that's a win. I think per customer was in general and businesses now and he did that. Because there's no way so to toby's point is just accelerated and living in a new era. There's no way around uncharted territory for sure. I mean i think i've heard even rumblings of the fact that we're probably at bef see 'em levels right now in shop fi based on the pandemic and the amount of people that have come to shop a fight to help. Sal i mean i have a story that i always tell my merchants where you know. They are in the restaurant business and They also had like a liquor. Beer company subscription options. They had but with their restaurants through california that had closed during the pandemic. They decided that they were going to spin up a shop. If i store to help have like packs of food some ready made some taken bake. Tv dinner kind of thing and you go with it. It really massively helped their business by a shop. A fi being the solution to the problem of it's happening. So you're right. There's a lot of digital first transformations that are happening of traditional these. Are i think even harley was on my show a while back. And he's talked about resilient entrepreneurs or will legacy people that are doing nothing. They're sitting in waiting and thing it's just going to pass and then there's the resilient entrepreneurs that are making these pivots making these changes and i think that's kind of where i that heyday is fitting into this. Mix a lot to where you know. I think brands need to make a pivot. They need to understand that the true specially were kinda right now. It's exciting to be able to add. This is the first line defense. Let's you know because if not you're shut your life chat off that's even worse. I have to do email. And there's phone calls and their social. The craziest can happen versus no having heyday running and having answered the most important questions that make sense of the masses and those that need assistance. It's routed accordingly. I think that just as a general rule of thumb is kind of a mandatory thing. Offer those listening today. And it's easy that they when you think about it. Any talk about amazing stories of pivots i mean. That's what sewing sparring as well as you're seeing these resilient entrepreneurs in unlocking new revenue streams and sometimes even like improving business significantly talked about the the example. You dana in the food. Category will lots of direct to consumer subscriptions or or econ plays or happening right now. I think for these businesses. They're discovering a new way of life in the business actually healthier and better than before. So that's interesting. So what does the future look like for. Heyday are able to share your north stars for s the remainder of twenty twenty and moving into twenty one and beyond dug their partner alignment or innovation just ended the day. I'm how will you offer value in assistance to shop brands. Yellow for us really late. A democratization really in our mind. And that's something actually told when we first met with michael berry and the team shall fight chet- team a year ago. We want to bring the sound ahead us said we want to bring the fortune five hundred capabilities to the fortune. Five hundred thousand so really in that transition at heyday of bringing you know. We've sign obviously like big retailers across north america in europe and we had a great summer but now will bringing product dicing these features so it's out of the box it's really ebeling. The guys do act bigger to give that level citation in service that bigger companies traditionally could only offer. So that's really. What were you know in terms of northstar strategy. That's we're all about with a focus on plus merchants. Obviously because we have affinities. But it's really you know. We just ruled out our faq automation editor in the shop marketplace. That's a first step in right direction where you can train your own a chat bot mannerly coating and we'll keep releasing more of these features of these diy features at much more competitive price foreign than will charge a higher volume you'll companies so i'd say that's really twenty. Twenty one will be all about dad and global expansion as you can imagine. This is great. It's really exciting stuff. So you can probably tell by the the music right now. But we are nearing the end of the show for today. But do you have any closing comments or any takeaways that you would like to leave with our listeners. Might you might see. Captain obvious. But i think customer experience against stress this enough so critical so important and in fact it's probably the most defensible strategy as a merchant. So i always like to say helping. Is the new selling especially in uncertain times where customers need more reassurance and more guidance about what they want to have the confidence that they're making the right decision so just being assistive being there for your customers investing customer experiences just to give that keeps on giving will not only help you boost cells and but it will also create more meaningful relationships over time which is amazing for lifetime value of customers and your bottom line. So it's your real a win win across the board so whatever you're doing twenty twenty one say that's kind of michael direction. I think it should be a focal point for business. Invest in customer experience again not under invest. And you'll see you'll see results instantly but also long-term and obviously help you compete against amazon. Well that's the thing right now. You compete with the bigger guys. Well do the scalable stuff do in the personalization that the extra mile the bigger guys cannot deliver. that's really the interesting takeaway field. So how can people learn. More about the heyday on the new app in the app store and then just the platform itself. A good place to start is definitely a shopper. Five market place at listing right to get an overview of our current features available But also check out our site which has been more comprehensive while all we have more than sixty composition columnist features. Some of them are still just for the enterprise. But he's going to give you a good idea of where we're going and what you can achieve with us and also like don't be shy. I love the half conversation with entrepreneurs the shares insights and grow tax. So just reach out. I mean you can reach out to me via email at its young at hatred up. Ai For the non french speakers here at its the nfl e. t. e. n. n. e. and heyday h. e. y. d. And also if you're purchasing success manager. I know steve. I got a big in lots of success manager at merchants success. Managers are looking for Solutions onto recommend either the agencies or or a boring stores so again by doors open. Reach out and looking forward to be chatting with you guys and latin. Ali's i'd like to offer if i may as special discount for our audience. So if you reach out to us before january thirty first twenty one we'll give you unlimited conversations agencies for three months plus twenty five percent off on your first year of heyday so and that includes a dedicated account manager. Really do the heavy lifting. We assist you along the way. So yes i just reach out. And we've been automating. Eighty percent of redundant customer service requests and therefore also helping merchants boost online convergence by focusing more on sales with definitely left be hardier success story in twenty one as beautiful ninety days to give the platform a spin. Like is an absolute no brainer especially were previously emory now and rolling into the busiest holiday season. We know people are looking for product. People are buying. They're not going into retail as it was in the previous years. And so because of that. There's gonna be more support requests. So surprise and delight have heyday running. On your store and self direct the customers can self direct and the rest of them go to agents. But wow ninety days to do that. I really appreciate. That will make sure the link is going to be commerce. Fastlane dot com forward slash. Edey that will go to landing page where you can take at you end up on this offer so as you know like shout. The feis mission is to make commerce better for everyone and it's very clear. Both in the heyday team are definitely entitlement. With wanting to help chop fight brands to improve efficiencies grow revenue and as you mentioned build lifetime customer loyalty so at thank you so much for taking time today sharing your knowledge and your vision and giving back to the shop ecosystem. Thanks david was real a real pleasure and being with you today. Have a great you too. I take today's episode is brought to you by grin. The all in one influence our relationship management platform grow fenwick direct to consumer brand on shop fai with the number one influence or marketing software solution for creating genuine direct relationships with influencers. You can learn more about their incredible solution and get started today at grin dot co- well that's it for today's episode. I'd like to thank you a loyal listener of ecommerce faslane. It's my hope that this podcast is offering you a ton of value through growth strategies tactics and exclusive insider tips on the best shop if i absent marketing platforms all with my personal goal to help you build launch grow and scale shop fight. Thanks for investing some time today and listening to the show. I'm so proud and excited that you have a growth mindset and our constant learner. I truly appreciate you. And your entrepreneur journey. Dry the rest of the week and keep thriving with shop a fight.

Steve heights Ai adidas home depot shalva europe steve france san marino ai spotify ellen ellen google Emory ub rand Shalva thousand percent thirty percent thirty five percent canada
Ep. 345 - How Artificial Intelligence (AI) is Changing YOUR Life w/ Fetch AI founder, Humayn Sheikh

CRYPTO 101

39:22 min | 1 year ago

Ep. 345 - How Artificial Intelligence (AI) is Changing YOUR Life w/ Fetch AI founder, Humayn Sheikh

"All right everybody. It is time for another episode of the Crypto One. Oh, one podcast. But before we dive in to are awesome awesome guest and conversation today owner remind you guys a two things in the first one is that if you go to Crypto one insider. Psalm you can join our private community. Here's where we have our model portfolio. In all of our top picks, we also have a crypto one. Oh, one university where we have hours and hours and hours of written and video content that explains blockchain explains crypto currency in a very bite-sized and easy to understand way, and we have a weekly newsletter that goes out in quarterly. State of Crypto addresses that go out. There is just a ton of value packed into this every which way. So once you guys I to go to crypto One oh one insider dot com today if you haven't already, I also WanNa remind you guys that pizza mind and I recently just finished a book I took eleven months of our lives to right and we're calling it. CRYPTO revolution your guide to the future of money. We walk you through this fascinating world of crypto currencies and blockchain. It's part history book. It's part instructional guide and IT'S GONNA. Really show you guys why crypto currencies are globally disruptive and how they're going to actually change in real life in real terms. The way that we buy and sell and live we include a bunch of. How To's on getting started with your first exchanges we give tips on how to safely by selling store crypto currencies as well as how do we evaluate potentially good cryptocurrencies and the best part of the books that were giving it away for free. All you have to do is pay for shipping and handling. So go to CRYPTO REVOLUTION DOT COM, and pick up your copy today. All right everybody good wonderful citizens of trip nation. It is your host to price. Pete's Mont coming at you with another kick butt episode of the Crypto one zero one podcast. Pete's are you hunker down over there you're surviving these southern California fires. We're lucky that we're not in San Francisco or further up north but you're good over there in your neck of the woods. I honestly don't feel so good today, Bryce I, think I invested in some bad Sushi and my stomach is just churning really bad. I was up all night. Just. Awful. But anyway, if you got some that can make me feel better can you go in the cabinet and find me something that's fundamentally sound and actually is doing good things for the world. You know it's funny that you mentioned that cause you know we're recording this September fifteenth Sushi is being completely completely falling off a cliff here. But it's one of those projects with anonymous founders and kind of behind you know very cloaked unveiled. And I I don't know I. I don't think that it's got a long stay in power and one of the things that we talk about when we talk about just fundamentally strong coins and projects and stuff we always look. For conversations with the founders people that have defensible reputations and stuff on the line. That's a real company. So Pete's why don't you introduce our guest here today CEO and Co founder of fetch. Whom I in shake I would you just did I just did I. Love. Welcome to the CRYPTO one podcast. How're you doing today skimp? Great. Free appreciate declined guys. It's better to be here. I'm. Not About at an Sushi on thinking about. So. Let's see up. Fantastic we're glad to hear that you're safe. Tell us what were you doing that inspired you to co found. FETCH DOT AI. It's It's it's a interesting story help things come about and I think most founders will these storms but. We. Always entrapped think two or three for things which actually been a suddenly started to find some correlations and started to connect. So my bedroom is your students. are trained as a programmer analyst looking announced would be with the. We will building these Machine Learning Algorithms and we must be. Doing something quite interesting in the gaming area and I had a commodity trading. History where writing Algorithms Commodity Trading and We were having this conversation way my other CO founder Toby Simpson. WHO's running massive multiplayer online games he was young and we will be discussing how a nice it will be to bring all of this together and actually deploying software agents which could actually We could actually do some really cool and clever stuff on their own and. Help. Improve the quality of life stop doing the tossed. sounded like a sunfire project but it actually then involved as he looked more or insert it became worried interesting. At that time I was involved with deep mind. Looking at commercializing some of the artificial generally intelligence that these asthma building and it became clear that. It's it's not as easy to bring a GI to the world. Without a a fabric to deploy. So you could build a oldies. A? Computer contents algorithm. To bring them food the real world where everybody can benefit from it knocked. Just big. Unique unique deployment fabric and so that sweetie the start of fetch out. So we started building deployment fabric way you could actually stop deploying machine learning, ai agi collective learning, and you could together so that we'd stocks to interact with each other at actually starts to make impactful. People look just big corporations who sit on. Yeah, so there's a lot to unpack right there for me just like at the outset I realize that there's like know agi artificial generalized intelligence. Then there's just artificial intelligence I don't know the difference there. So probably ask you to explain that I think a lot of people have curiosities about, but then you have collective learning neural nets and machine learning. So there's all these big different ideas like kind of floating around but they what would you say they all fall under like the like the kind of the parents to all that is just maybe just data analysis and Maybe the ideas that you're you're talking about like how all of this stuff is making life better. Like what is it all doing to make our lives better like how's that all working? I have my own billion nothing. A lot of people might agree with this but I'll give you a very Layman's Union and into of how I see. The. More Layman's terms. We could get the more analogies we could get the happier everybody'll be i. think that's what you'll get from me so for. Digs analysis and if you think about. Looking at historic and then learning from Dhaka's Orix say that's the learning. So what you do is you have huge amounts of. executed Baixa you read that the days fine cordless stations you can find. And it's obviously on a school field off feel you could just look at time series do analysis on that. You can look at several you can find. You can look at your day. So you can see you can see what the look like. So that's machine. Back when you come to? Decision. Making. What so you actually have the ability to make a decision now A. Very. Basic form of that would be if this that right if this happens do this. So that's that's the beginning. That's the risks of A. Complex than that because now you have. A which can do things on their own. For example, a call can stop breaking something happens. Move into the airspace. agi Is General Intelligence. which is how the machine live. Like a human. So it's a child who lives revolve and live in different circumstances while with different environments and. Trade, says. It can have different types of transferred living lives something let out a a You can now get up chat so. That's more a general intelligence. Kind of space. So so so that's the three categories but but wanted to stand. Limit, more hell they're. Connecting. Agi. To. Make decisions it make decisions based on predictions. Now this would reductions people some people will take offence of me saying it but I'm just trying to explain what the situation is. So if I said to you. Make a decision either way to go out in a rain jacket would not or a t shirt. That's a decision human mixed human makes that decision based on prediction and the prediction is if you think it's going to rain outside and there's ninety nine percent challenge is going to rain. You take a raincoat. And if the prediction is that there is twenty simple fifteen percents or ten percents and you might know. So every a our decision will every agi season left Messa is based on. This on. You can you can you could kind of elaborated generalizing extradiction marketplace's unlock people use it in a different that's that's the late. So machine learning actually delivers the predictions. Looks at the prediction make decision and Agi Liz more and more from those decisions and evolved from the. Three distinct it. So hopefully that makes sense in a in a more generalized. Does I feel like I finally understand now. So thank you for clearing that up. There still like a lot of worry and fear that a I can evolve is it gonNA take over? You know we're always afraid of things we don't understand. So what we've got the expert on here I have to ask, is there any reason to be afraid of Aai either the president or the future? It's it's a difficult one that I would say, let's look at terminated Spina. The movie was made a little twenty twenty. Twenty twenty that's all these things have. Them see that happening right now. I think even the even the cause of riding on the road not clever enough to do themselves fully. So I don't think we'd have risk just yet. Do we have that risk cattle. That's my opinion, which is that yes because I think with the crease in different technologies increasing compute Kyle and Windy Agi if the Agi does evolve in the way. We expect to the sense that it does stop learning and it does stop doing things on its own than the danger is perhaps not in that much of the road will come alive. It's more that because of certain ways it's been trained a fall in Oh, it might end up doing things which are. Not. Always that beneficial to humans. But but that's also a subjective mess I. Mean if the Agi as involved in a certain environment and it doesn't see something wrong with something than the other environment might see completely the opposite of what? Is Is, is that an evil? Not How you make make receivable not give you very basic saying. That's what it means to be safely a is developed in a in a whites nation. The. will learn from that white nation and not from any other company. So. There are some differences as you. Ascertain these. Algorithms, these subtle difference would be. Out of it, and that's the danger which. is their field. So. Is The blockchain come in to kind of alleviate any of those potential fears or worries. Question because they just aren't lead into. Kind of wanted to say what what is so so to enable all inclusiveness, you need to have a fabric, which is where I was. Saying what what me? Fabric needs to be all inclusive. A, it doesn't matter where you are. It doesn't mess up how a region and how you interact with it. It needs to be an open assistance needs to be a decentralized system and. So, I. Get this question a lot. You know you just jumped on the blockchain bandwagon, but now just think about it if you're going to have. Let's let's say just some some small amount of air learning from each other. You know you the need to have put decentralized system. And we come come into a bit more what fetched us exit but. You need while chain. Now, why do they actually need? Any decentralized system whereby the controller doesn't live with the centralized entity should do the same yes in. You know as long as decentralized than. Nobody know certain. Specific set of people is control controlling it. That's okay. But we found that blockchain was A. Very. Very good and a very solid fabric where you can connect these different intelligence is to learn from each other. That's why we have tried to. Yeah, and let's let's dive straight into that I remember when we were kind of speaking prior there was a conversation around these economic agents in you had a good analogy in the economic agents are kind of these almost like the nodes on your network. And the Analogy. That really struck me was that of like a travel agent something that you know who knows your preferences? Who makes your decisions? You know the quicken the pace of your decision making because they have all that information, they your preferences a little and that was kind of an analogy between your system. So could you kind of walk us through your system? Yeah. So so so what are we building? So let me just lay out that framework lost. So what are we building is a Framework, way software agents Cam. Connect to each other. They can find each other. So it's such a discovery mechanism. And they can exchange economic value with each other. And they can learn from each other. So any and and and it sounds simple but to do it in a decentralized fashion. All stakeholders have different incentives is not the easiest toss, but let's say that that exist which fetch Sabri exists which is a agent framework. That enables you do is you could you could run a lifetime an. Try just keep them. It's like a piece of course like by which could actually said on any of your devices. And it actually has a toss and what be pulled. Them is a Thomas Economic agents which is different from Thomas Agents. Inches. Thomas Agent doesn't necessarily have to have a economic battle. But this whole thing to actually take a muscial make sense it has to exchange economic value and the reason why that is the case most of our incentives of based at the moment on economics. So we're talking about money and we're talking about creating a new came out exchanging value buying something something. So if you're going to give these agents the talent to make a decision. On your behalf. Unique to give them all sir a method of economic exchange, which can all be a gained, which which which is which is. Kind of alignment with the incentive mechanism. That fabric. So that's really on savings now. So what can you do these Thomas? So gave you leagues of Travel Agent and I'm just an an elaborate a little bit on that but let's stop from a next stop from rides ailing on a facility or exile. So. So what happens is the likes of Google lift they sit in the middle and why this in the middle is ause. You're enabling this GIG economy we're enabling. Individuals to take on tasks and then on the other side biding consumer facility up you have on. Tat. One Ula. Head data. Right. You could do it on your up straightaway and what the the aggregate in the middle of it actually tries to find him connects each. And that's that they take ten cent fifteen cent whatever the. Whatever that incentive is. Now why that needs to be done that way is because there is no decentralized decentralized fashion efficient in such a and making an efficient. Model, which connects the consumer the lighter, the status this applies to every. So. So now you think about, I, have an agent we own have an agent I am you'll service provider and you're the consumer. Do your agent knows your references you can. You can train the agent to know your preferences and you WanNa cop. You, just enabled that agent to find you. And you naked negotiation so the agent goes out and actually find you a cab because let's say the service provider also has a major and you can connect with each other. That's gets rid of that aggregate. The middle reaches the intermediary to selecting the incentive of connecting the coupon discover. Now, don't need a 'cause Mul- N punts. Thomas agents a clever enough. To, find each other because there is this fabric which exist. And it applies committed. To you know I'll. You want to hotel you will travel them light. You know every seat can sell itself. We now you can suck extending too many things in why do we need you know working? On is an aggregate. Which connects all these hotels they control the price there front running low because they can go and buy much cheaper. Front running doesn't relate to I guess just basic financial aiding also yes. It could go and buy a big up by the hotels they can can. Price, the continues light up a they want transparency they won't be able to take. embiid this whole travel. down. This? Becomes more and more difficult. To manage. and. Find. customer m wing through the data. So it's kind of new way. Way, the ally can now stop living we you. You don't have to look at big news that they're going to crunch the data they're going to give you the options because. The problem with that is your sentenced not their incentives. Giving you the option and you'll choices limited So, win out changing the attorney on its head and we making much more efficient. Become much challenges, but this is a new era. Yeah. What I really love most about decentralisation is that removes that really expensive middle man that manipulates things in their favor. When I started out as an entrepreneur, I had a mentor and he said always be the middleman because you're going to take the biggest cut of the Prophet and do the least amount of work if you're going to be in business, that's the place you WanNa be helping rid of that. Is the best advice that he ever gave of really and it was very successful. He was in business by himself for like forty years simply just having someone else supply and someone else build and he just simply handled the sales of at all. So but that's what our world economies built on but. It's not fair. It's not right. The people creating the value should be the ones that are retaining most of it and through decentralisation, it's also going to be better prices for consumers. So I think that's an awesome. safe-space lumping in commodity trading or longtime so. I agree advice was absolutely correct. I think I think we. As as everything else we all win to space where A it's. It's becoming less important especially with the technology which has existed to now when you enable these big entities unaccounted become so powerful. That has to change because you can't have such entities gone from countries at courts now. So the controlling power is not with countries these records. So I assume the token is the economic exchange for data in this ecosystem. Correct. necessarily. So be. Taken is that you you have to? Have, you have to run this framework. And there was a cost of running this framework and even amount to run those people in modern around the whole network unless you pay them the cost of ability it's not it's it's nowhere near the intermediary cost fifty, hundred percent, but you still need to maintain that. Actual infrastructure the whole thing so Hosting has come at comes at a cost and that cost. So. As a utility. Enables you to run. This whole thing. is like the oil gas been holding? Agents to do a toss because they're going to go out searching discovering. They. Send messages than there is obviously a communication. Communication. A communication overhead they spent to be. How it connects to the necklace that overhead. overhead. So Fed Token Hazel only actually you need all the facts. We all looking interesting. Ideas whereby using a token to. Day A. Stable mechanism off value exchange so. Because if you're looking taxi, you don't want to take phone at us. Right? It's It's. So we coming up with the with the mechanism, we stabilize the vice. Happy it'd be agnostic you can pay. Any cryptocurrency continuous DT's statement points snow. Stay on. Doesn't That's not our objective or objective is to provide that framework. Wait run. Run this new. Economy. that. Regretting. Awesome and is the Fed token have any governance capabilities as well? Not Taken doesn't have a at such governments. It's very much. It's just a seed as guests. So that's that's. And you can build projects on top of. which is whether governments comes, for example, we are. Launching, a commodities exchange, which which is out fetch technology and. On the commodities exchange, there is a government spokesman. Pool. So. That's a governance saga in every every project every spin out every. Creates of its own governance token because one governments doesn't apply to pull. If you if yo- looking at travel and hospitality, the governance is different to governments in commodity shows all. Trying to trying to do something else that completely different sector so you need to. You need to have that ability to create new. Marcus and everything focal every market should have guns. So so is the fetch a token built on it's own blockchain or is it on the by chain? Now it's it's it's. It's but again of focus was not necessarily to build a chain we all again. Interoperability, is key here we have is a chain which been. So when when we started back Two years ago eighteen months nineteen months ago. The chains will intimacy. The transaction speech when limited I mean we will bound. Copies of. Transaction five thousand trump's second somebody can do you know another five thousand transaction second but now save off this deployment where you have agents everybody. Doing multiple tasks all the time. That, doing the going to a weather station getting their weather prediction and enabling you to get a taxi a, which is in the right time. The right place using these prediction buying addictions transacting with predictions meet need millions of transactions a second. Not Not thousands because this is not just a let's make a payment in the it's it's about it's about agents like and it has to be. To forty to compete with a centralized system. That transactions feet so be built. With that in mind and we added shouting to the whole system so that we can scattered Linley. But but having said that there is no, you are not a chain must. Be. Oakland to any change. ability is you want to deploy him something you WanNa use all. Agent Framework. You can you can avoid framework fetch, and then you can offer with anybody. So or example off key this is not a main thing we're launching. Agents any or because many things that need generated his SOB have A. We have a we have a network with deploying of Oracle's which people can run is just an oracle network. For generalized use. Something like a chain link Paul. Other guys do. That will related to the price of. The. Other things, but this is more generalized. Agent. And Body Info agent kind of argument. Let's. But you can deploy all these fools on fetch chain. But you don't ask to be tied to the Fed chain you can run aging which which can go and make a transaction on. So that's white that's that's quite a key here because. I think a lot I think a lot of the power that really a lot of these kind of two point three point Oh blockchain's are going to have is that interoperability feature we've been talking about that since the beginning of the year just if it does if your project doesn't have that than, it doesn't have a future. Are. And what we're saying is that you can use this agent. Friend looked create that interoperability. You can have a very specific niche. You can still operate the cerium which takes an hour competed transaction hundred dollars. So you can still if you found doing it, you must welcome to at why you want to do it is another. Yadana why anyone would want to continue to do that? So when I came out with their smart chain and said, Hey guys, you can migrate over here in three easy steps. My jaw just dropped I mean was a power move the year from CC. We'll see how many projects actually make the migration I. Think a lot going to be forced to or they won't be able to continue to survive with these insane ethereal gas fees the just so many alternatives to theory of now with just it just makes a theory of even though that's where a lot like it is the largest open source developer community in the world and they have like that sort of network effect but. I mean. Tangent but the two point Oh like who knows Wasting these two point. In then goes and does the end. So I mean we went with the chain log we just released. It's not it's not been public yet, but we we just. About to release it, it's a random beacon full finance chance that you can. So you can actually use a true randomness. Is kind of sitting on on. With what is operating with violence? So you can you can ask for a random number generator and you can get a random number in a old integrated by men spot so you could you could. Been The drive from the fetched chain, which is a lot. Which is, which is a lot faster and a lot more secure in the sense that the randomness is generated, but you could use the same thing a Syrian or you can use. smug. It's it's one of those things when when I was working at a blockchain company prior that I didn't realize was a mathematical issue was generating proved random numbers but apparently, everybody's probably listening random numbers. I seem so trivial dislike pick a number out of a hat. It's not that simple folks in computer science there's there's quite difficult to he's. Doing fine, and you want to do the correct solent nobody's in control of randomness released a paper where we it's the crucible randomness and we integrating I think we've just. been announced with next week or something. But that's that's that's already happening and again that's necessarily agents Congratulations for that very important milestone had before. We let you go. I WanNa know what's up next on the road map We do have a couple of closing questions but I wanna know what's next on the roadmap what can we expect? Are there certain? Milestones that you have coming up in the next couple of months that we can keep tabs on. So. So we We took. A. Different strategy can most let's ex and because we have. Yes. We doing what we're doing. So the strategy was that. A agents old futuristic. Need, commercial, who still need you need to take all that technology and actually start using it. In the simplest form as account. So we took to Rousseau we took a a a defy fantastic will see fine whatever you wanna call it is a blend of all of these things because it's based on blockchain not the CONATY. Defy. so We have that. And then we have a very Real. Will commercialized action but now. And be investing than. Together effectively. So on one side won't shake a commodities exchange, which is the centralized bringing real whoa commodities, and we creating the easy way of trading those derivatives, spreads, or any instruments end ringing all the commodity traders and other traders. Insurance traders onto the system and the reason why I doing that because a lot of the technology we build for the agents plies will the traditional. Markets of decks and everything else. So we deployed that because that's a xm now thing. And we want us to be commercially success we launched a token, which is the metroplex Tokens, and then within that will the next of we do is once we have gone through the process of. Lies Exchange we have at another Tomac which is spending a which is a real asset real will exit lending on hall. So you can take the real commodity slide chain finance. You can don't forget supply chain finance. Is Best Done when you can get inflammation from each component of the supply thing that's the agents of it. So so now you have agents which which never finding any change modifying of any. Supply chain components and to finance. So building that finance. Component will fall a project and on the other side we then have is something different, which is a building a. Transportation. Model around agents because transportation. Is All, based on A multi agents because every car's agent. If you think golfing even if you humans, we're still interacting multistakeholder system. So we're looking at wanting a again connected fabric old Thomas. Because Thomas Driving. What you can see visually react to usually only one thing. But what you can do is Klutzy ten 'cause ahead and Creating is a fabric which enables you. So you can actually see Tenneco's ahead. That's that's. Really Fascinating. Man I love to talk to you for another four hours, but I don't want to take you away from building this amazing technology the futures too much longer. But if I can just WANNA squeeze one last question in we're going to have a lot of crossover in our listenership. In this episode, we're GONNA have a lot of people from the AI and machine learning and development communities that maybe you are hearing a Crypto podcast for the first time. If this was the first crypto podcast someone. Kind of getting into the space and heard, would you want them to know about this industry in particular? Can you leave us with some words of wisdom? Difficult. Unlike any other one you've probably ever worked they. Theories a lot of. There is a bad press up on crypto. It's not old at look at just. The food items look at something really good that is happening as well. I mean we all a completely changing the world financial system if we get it right and we never going to get it right. In the first instance, we had to read way we're going to redesign, and ultimately this is a this is going to take place he's going to happen. You can see they're all. Truth off savings which are going to come. So a fucker towed somebody who's listening. The first time don't just look at the bad things. There is a lot of good stuff going on the decentralization it might be good for everything, but it is pretty good for a lot of things and I think we we should take this journey as as. Mankind I guess. That's that's a big word that We should take this journey because this is the next step with. People. Niche. When degree more honestly great closing words of wisdom for us today. Couldn't really thank you enough man we had a great time learned a lot about a subject that we really don't talk much about. So it was cool kind of hopping over to the other side of the aisle and learning about the marriage between blockchain artificial intelligence and seeing how kind of future is gonNA unfold from your from your vantage point. So hopefully, we bring you back on the show down line with with some more developments. Thank you. Really. Enjoyed it and roll the questions in reading. Joint Take Care Thank you.

Oh blockchain Pete Thomas Agents Fed Thomas Co founder front running California Bryce Thomas Economic agents San Francisco Oracle Thomas Agent Google A. Complex Orix Twenty twenty programmer analyst
Episode 188: How to design a better smart home

IoT Podcast – Internet of Things

54:15 min | 3 years ago

Episode 188: How to design a better smart home

"The. The. Hey, everyone. Welcome to the internet of things podcast. This is your host Stacey Higginbotham and your co host Kevin toefl, and we have an awesome show for you today. You see him already singing we're going to be talking about a barren, news smart home company. It's rizzuto. They just went public this week. So we're talking about that also tell about the death of the smart home hub. We're probably getting a lot of feedback on this. But we thought the debatable death the debatable death. I like that. Kevin. I robot is going to share your roomba data with Google. We've got some security flaws to talk about and we're going to talk about the death of beacons what happened there Microsoft has vision for the smart campus. We've talked a little bit about it. But we're gonna talk some more about it today. And we have our guest this week is Alexandra Dacia Sincino who has a brand new book about the smart home. That's actually, really good. And we're gonna talk to her about servant Einem IX women in the smart home. And why we're currently at this weird impasse where nothing works together. And we hate everything. So maybe we don't hate it. But it's still pretty grim. This is a downriver show death death in hate it is a bit of a grim episode. But as always we will shepherd you through with care and sensitivity, and I'm sure a few laughs. So we also are going to hear from our sponsor bit defender. Brand new sponsor this week yea bit defender, and our other sponsor, let's hear from the now this week sponsor is cognizant with demanded customers at the center of today's value chain delivering engaging. Addicts and experiences is even more important cognizant, a global leader in business and IT services helps companies engage customers by envisioning innovative products and services or inventing disruptive new business models with these insights cognizant collaborates with clients to build smart products, disruptive strategies, and new ways of engaging customers across every channel that use the power of IOT. Learn more about cognizance. I o t services and solutions at cognizant dot com slash I o t okay heaven. I am excited. I am super excited about this news because residual is the name of Honeywell's, smart home, insecurity. Spinoff, and it's actually going to be based in Austin, which is where I now live. It is Honeywell over a year ago announced that it was going to spin off some of its businesses to streamline this is a popular thing that happens every I dunno decade or so these companies they get really big, and then they're like our conglomerate, and then they shed everything and it goes on and back and forth. Sperry fun. So this time Honeywell is doing the radio spin off it will be based in Austin and it joins alarm dot com. Control for savant is not public. So it's going to become one of the smart home security publicly traded companies out there in I think this is kind of interesting because it ties to something else. You wrote Kevin which is about the death of the smart home hub. And I think there's a couple of themes here. Sorry, it's the debatable death. If I look at this. The macro picture is we have set the stage for the smart home in the sense that people are interested in it. They're understanding that they can provide greater security depth. Which is why I think a lot of these companies are doing pretty well or thinking they will do pretty. Well, but I also think it's still way too complex for normal people, which is where we're getting things like the professional services in the I s p's getting into this. And actually, a company called Kahlil dukes, which I used to know decades ago when it covered, you know, fiber, and I s p's those guys actually launched a smart home gateway that will be sold through IS ISP's and has Amazon's Madame a inside of it. Remember you guys Madam as what we call Amazon's digital assistant. So as not to set off your digital assistance in this is actually it's all part of this larger theme where DIY feels almost dead. And let's talk like, I know I said this was about hubs. But it relates Kevin you want to kind of talk about the death of the hub, the debatable the hook. Yeah. Yeah. I'll talk about that interest to clarify to make sure for my own information, the residual business that's more focused on like consumer residential type whereas Honeywell still doing like industrial things. They are. I do think it's weird that they split that off. Because I thought there's a lot of God help me synergies that could be had. No, actually, I think it's a good idea because of those synergies I mean from a technology standpoint, there are obvious synergies there. But yet the implementation standpoint are very different between industrial in consumer. So I think it's a good idea. Okay. We'll there you go. And I'm thinking not industrial. I'm thinking more enterprise like feel like that's where the health and safety those kind of things that Honeywell is so good at both on the residential and enterprise side. I think it'll be sad to have those split. But that shouldn't do we'll see we'll see. I mean, they just went public. So we'll find out in the future, but kidding back to hubs. And I understand on probably gonna get a lot of negative feedback from the diehard readers that have had hubs for years and years, you know, we've had maybe they had extensive go in an instant hubs and so on and so forth and trust me. I didn't like writing this because I don't want to admit defeat. But I am admitting defeat to a point. It seems to me like. The hubs of today that we've talked about over the past year say your Samsung, smart, things your wing, can many others that are out there that people are using I'm by people I mean listeners and readers of the site. Not normals gets back to the whole DIY that you were talking about second ago. I think they've been usurped by apple Amazon and Google because those three are focused far less on adding more radios to support things which we don't want to hear because I mean, we've got Z wave Zeke be devices, but these guys are focusing mainly on bluetooth and WI fi instead of focusing on radios, they focused on user interface moving over to or away from smartphones into speakers for voice control as well as smart displays, and they also reached out to extend their integrations with brands, and I looked at some statistics as of last week. Amazon says that the number of Madame compatible devices has quintupled year to date to more than twenty thousand devices from. Over thirty five hundred brands Google is also doing well, they've got the home hub that they just introduced earlier this month. Google assistant works with over ten thousand smart devices from over one thousand brands I don't think you can say the same about Samsung, or wink, or any of the other hubs that people that are core audience might be using. So I think Amila strating the difference in the approach, and what's going to happen here is okay. So the automation side of things that are missing from the big three's. I say the apples, the Amazons and Google's that's gonna come to be honest. Apple already has that. They've got some automations that you can do with home kit so already there it could easily see Amazon and Google just keep building that base. Apparently, there's been a fifty million installed. Smart speakers from those two companies so far in the US only. And once they keep building it up, then becomes just a matter of tying all together in the cloud, and maybe pushing down local automations and such. So I kind of feel like the traditional smarter love is kind of dying away. I think it may not be dying. So much as it's just not right for the DIY person. So in I would be remiss if I did not say that Amazon does have the echo, plus which does have zippy radio in it. Correct. But I would say that it is complicated. And I think that ties back to the residual and the new Kayla XBox for ISP's, which is if you want crazy home automation, really good detailed stuff, you're gonna get that from someone else. You're going to hire that out if you are a normal person. And I think the challenge for those guys will be to establish business models that work for what consumers want today. So the traditional business model there's two one is you buy all the gear and you pay someone to put it in. And then you pay them to come back every now and then tweak it or you pay a monthly fee and get all the gear which seems to be what the ISP the eighty the alarm dot com's are doing. Which is you know, they supply all this equipment for a fixed fee. You're gonna pay. Pay off that equipment with a service contract. And the question is will people want to do that? And I think it depends on the values. You get security is still the number one value leader for those guys, not home automation. I'd be curious just bring it down to less expensive product. I'd be curious. How many smart home webcam devices and companies actually turn those purchases into subscriptions for cloud storage of photos and such? I was actually really impressed. So I've talked to a couple of companies to get numbers on their subscription services. And I can't name any of them because they would just be very upset with me for saying this if I named them, but in many of the top companies, the cloud. Subscriptions are above fifty percent. In some cases, they're above eighty percent while which is actually really that's a high attach rate. Yeah. Very high high subscription rate in those are five dollars to ten dollars, depending on the number of cameras, depending on what you. I wanted to do in there, also not contracts. That's another thing to think about right. They make it very easy to sign up for these. Because you put this device in your house. You get like an Email, and they're like, yeah. Send us your credit card. You're like or guy in some cases. You don't even have to do that. If you're a Google, Google, hasher credit cards are just like, yeah. Let's do it. And then every month. I in my case with Google. I get an Email saying, hey, by the way, we're going to charge. You this month's you're like, okay, cool. Then I could do the same with nest and canary right now. Yeah. So it's a very different model than the old world. So I think all of these stories are interrelated in a way that going into twenty nineteen I think based on what we're seeing from Google Amazon Apple mostly Amazon to be honest to make attaching things easier and avoid programming easier. I think they're going to win at the DIY stuff, and these formal I guess these formal installs with probably a higher level of. Security more sensors more, maybe home automation, those guys are going to do well there, but I do think they'll have to adjust their business models right on the plus side, something I said earlier this year is probably also wrong. Now, if this is the future that we're talking about where I said, hey, smart, home hubs are probably going to kill off the immigration services such as if in string a fine. So on mo-, maybe not I mean, if the hubs don't get into the houses and people want motivation, those services, certainly add value. Well, and we talked about this last week, but I saw get hub actions. Remember how we talked about? Right. That wasn't last week that was a couple of weeks ago actually think that's kind of like an if killer at their so, yeah, it's at least an alternative it is essentially in Comcast bought string affi-. So they'll be building that into their again, cloud based services. So maybe we'll see if get snapped up by somebody who wants to make life a little easier to integrate or maybe I don't have his own. On any watch. Oh, that's right. You are big proponent of that, aren't you? I don't remember. I wrote something about it. Or just talked to you about it. Like a hundred times. I can't remember. Yes, it is. Yes to both probably Kevin has been very consistent on this point. He would like Amazon to buy ift. And also, wink, I'm not saying I would like them to. I'm just saying I could see it happen. I could see why would make sense there you go. Yes. All right. Speaking of things that make sense or rather don't make sense. Let's talk about the death of bluetooth beacons. This is a really I'm mad that I didn't write this story because I've seen this coming for years. And apparently, there is a news peg that got venture beat to write about it. So yeah, venture beat for paying attention that news bit was actually Google turning off locations nearby in Android right nearby. Notifications as gone in most people will not miss it. Because I can tell you that the only time I encountered nearby. Notifications popping up on my phone was at bluetooth world. And I think that's when I visited Google. If it doesn't happen a bluetooth world, you know, it's dead. So basically, the problem with beacons is actually very similar to some of the problems. The smart home has so. Take. No, I don't tell awaiting you guys when marine warning just goofy. As all get out. She does this all the time. Not just on Halloween. It's true. But I digress standards. There were two competing standards. That's always terrible plus battery issues if you put a beacon somewhere, you would have to find it again, later and change the batteries, in some cases, people would actually move your beacons. It was probably more like trickster ISM or sometimes it was just staff like oh get this outta here. You know, and they'd put it someplace else so batteries things that move. You don't know where they are. These are actually common problems with sensors that are deployed in enterprises and even in the home. I have flow battery notices on sensors, and I'm like where did I put that better? There's a couple other things to mean beacons were touted as being very inexpensive and relatively speaking. They are However, I think almost all the major league baseball stadiums put them in. And it's not like they just put in a few beacons. They're everywhere. And when you start going and buying up hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of beacons that adds up really quickly. So from that perspective a big location. It's not exactly cheap and second the value. You get back is really limited by something. Not in your control do the people at your venue have their bluetooth on. I never have my bluetooth on. Well, let's I want it on and not only do they have to have bluetooth on in many cases. They actually have to have the app that works with the beacon. Right. Wait. Yeah. There's no native integration will Google did try that with its nearby locations in chrome, and so and so forth. So, but even so that's completely out of their control. If you don't have your wife, your bluetooth on you've just been all that money for nothing. Exactly. So goodbye. But, but, but, but, but, but I have a thought I would still love to see these technologies, whether it's IB gin, or Eddie, stone, etc. I would still love to see these continue in the home because I think they could work. Well for presence, even if I had to wear a silly little bluetooth tag on my built or something. Why would you need that you have your phone on? You ought all times. Kevin we talk about true. But I don't leave again. I don't leave bluetooth on. I guess I would in that case. So I think instead of physical beacons there's a lot of interesting plays here around virtual beacons. So there are companies like missed that are creating basically they put access points in now that we're seeing bluetooth actually in wifi hubs. This is possible in other places where you basically can be a software. Create quote, unquote, beacons place them in a room or place of in where the wifi knows there's a room, basically. And wa you have presence detection, you have some of the same functionality. And if there were a standard for this, which would be amazing than other smart home devices or enterprise devices could use it in the enterprise, you may actually in your corporate phone have something that's running all the time that works when you're inside the campus. So it's less of an issue there what we'd need there, though is one bluetooth in access points possibly that. Standard in three really good mapping Whitney. Good segue. Brings us to our next story. Oh, I'm so hyper pleased with myself, which is I robot. The makers behind roomba have done a deal with Google where they will mine. Well, Google's going to use the mapping data that comes off of certain roomba. Vacuums and then it can establish accurate maps of your home in a sense. It can add presence for a roomba service. You can say, hey, Google, tell room to clean, but family room, and it will know where the family room is because it has the mapping and Google assistant can target that particular room. So that adds more value to the robot self, so I think that is actually that's a really good point to make because I think that is the bare minimum you have to do to do data collection. You have to offer the user some value. And so his very smartly said, hey, here's the bout. You can say go do this and do it. But it also allows Google to understand what's in your home where it is. And it's a possibility that hey that could. Be either mapped to create those virtual beacons. It could be a way to understand Kevin you said presents. But you know, usually, I leave when my room was there. So I'm not in the room. Mal of this is supposed to be opt in and it will not be used by Google's ad service. Yes. So that's a big plus for a lot of people. I think yes, and Google is quoted in one of the stories that we read about this as saying this is basically, not just a smart home but away to create a thoughtful home that requires less information from users in Kevin. And I call this context, and I do think that's actually true. So I may have to get a room bug in. I mean, Victor doesn't clean up the crumbs to willies only like three inches tall. So takes a long time to clean up in vacuum. Oh, he could be like when you're in a fancy restaurant, and they come out with the chrome catcher at the end. Yeah. You can fit a little chrome catcher on him. And he could just like I just got the of the case for vector. So maybe I'll code that. If in python. There you go you do need the crime catcher. So I'll look forward to that video. Kevin. And could you put him in a little tuxedo? Because I think that would be adorable. I could do that. I could. All right. So that's the roomba. Google news. And speaking of context, Microsoft has a vision for the smart office that they showed off in a video that you know, I actually saw the watch. It's worth a watch to see what you can do. I think it's also kind of a UI cluster in my opinion. But that could just be like the demonstration aspects of it. So in this video, you swipe your play badge against something in the wall. In knows where you are in the building it also can answer it's cut Cortana in there. So it's answering your questions about things. Like, hey, where can I find sushi and they're like, oh, it's in this cafeteria. Here's some menu items. Oh, hey, I'm here for my meeting. Great that ties into outlook. And you can send out like, boom. Everybody's in the meeting, except you where are you all that seemed cool go Kevin? Well, that is cool. And I've actually been looking at like smart workspaces for a couple of years when I was back with Google was. Topics. I was researching. And so on what I liked about this aside from those examples that they show off. They also show. How again context right information at the right place in time is super important for pretty much anything in the office. For example. They said we can put one of these in the bathroom or near the bathroom at if there's may be a water issue. There's a leak or something you could swipe your badge. It knows where you are knows who you are and says what can I help you with? There's a leak in this bathroom. Please open a trouble ticket. The system would say, okay. Got it. Trouble ticket assigned and opened. And I know where the bathroom is. I know what the problem is in the reason they say that's important because in a regular office, you'd probably have to go all the way back to your desk to make a phone call to facilities and so on, but you're more than likely going to get stopped by other people on your way back to the deaths. You're going to be thinking about work things. And you're not gonna remember to actually open the ticket. That is true. And here's what I'd like to see just based on that in. This was again video where anchor was talking to a person about the project one swiping your. Edge before like to exchange information with the system felt like not a lot of work. But you may not do that. Right. So I felt like four things like notifying you of a water leak having a screen. There would be really helpful that could say, hey water. They right or conference in progress. And a lot of these screens exist in workplaces today, the other aspect of this that I didn't love was there is still a lot of things you shouldn't do via voice. So like when it started listing the places where I could find sushi I was like, oh my God stop talking. But, but but it also did say for more information than it pointed you to an internal campus up with a map and the menu. I would love to see shot on my smartphone. I agree. I open the app to see this the echo app already. Does this Google does this with Google assistant? I know that Microsoft does not they're not a lot of Microsoft phones. Are they're still microphones out there. Maybe a few there still some out there. There's no new ones, but there are still some out there. I mean, either shoot it over my phone or have programmable NFC, tag or. Something that opens the app for me or something. Yes. 'cause I've already got a swipe something, although I'm swiping exotic my phone my badge, so many things one day. My badge will become my phone. My NFC chip will be in my hand or that. But then you have no screen to see this stuff on Kevin. That's okay. Okay. So that's Microsoft smart office. I will also say to me, this was probably a super practical. But the coolest Microsoft smart office demo I've ever seen his still the one from build where you walked into the conference room. It had like Cortana on this magical pyramids sitting on the conference room table that handled the calls. It also had I think a camera and it can recognize who is in the room, and they were using AI that would basically create to do notes from your meeting like conversation. So if someone said, okay, I'm gonna follow up on that. Or I'll check the calendar dates get back to you. It would actually we need that. We do we so need that was like all magical until it breaks down. And then all office productivity will cry into a halt just like what happens today when Email or slack is down. True. Okay. There's a lot of hang in this show. Sorry, guys. It's annoying. Oh, and speaking of our plus talk about security issues. Kevin security research say that the Google home hub is insecure Google and surprisingly is saying it's not insecure. What's going on there? There's a lot of hoo-ha about this over the past few days. It all comes from the source of personal blog by Jerry Gamblin. He is a security advocate. He started nosing around. Once he got a Google home hub. And he scanned the network and saw what the hub is doing. And he saw a bunch of open TCP ports and after about fifteen or twenty minutes, he figured out using an undocumented API that with one cruel command. He could reboot the Google home hub, which puts it right back up in setup mode where you need to go into the Google home app and set it up again. And I totally understand that that probably should not be allowed. But a lot of folks are like these are insecure. You know, all kinds of back doors and people getting information. There's no information that can be gotten from resetting the hub by this method. And the fact is you'd have to be on the same wifi network to actually exploit this. So there's an awful lot of parameters here that I don't think makes us a huge issue. And that's what ghouls unsurprisingly saying, you know, now, they're gonna to reset it would it because you're not loading them through because like resets would be bad for someone like security camera, but those are actually on the device itself. So the drop Cam or the s Cam. So if you just reset this, basically, you're gonna lose your like alarm, right? Okay. I mean. Yeah. So if somebody resets whether they unplugged my hub or do this? I mean, yeah, that's gonna cause those kind of problems for sure. But again, I'm like is it really an insecurity kind of thing from a from a data standpoint. I don't think so should be allowed to happen. No, it shouldn't and Google Patchett. But I just saw so many stories this week in an I I don't have a Google home hub. So I wasn't concerned. Begin with. But my point is I don't think people need to be overly concerned about this. Yeah. I have a sunset I tell people. I'm like, look, you gotta evaluate these for what they really can do and your profile, and that's not something. Apparently most media do yet, which is unfortunate. Because there are some really scary things out there that we don't talk about. Hey, speaking of scary other things that we may not talk about often is let's talk about hijacking connected construction cranes because that feels like that could be related I've a related question where you just recently in Vegas. I was did you know that the official city bird is a crane at that used to be the joke in Austin. But. Oh, I'm sorry. Amusing city jokes now anyway, anyway, yes. So this is a very unique interesting security issue in it is a big vulnerability. There's connected construction crane made by Tele crane that literally has a connection to that. The operator of the crane has some assistance in terms of how to run this thing and where move in zone so forth with there is an exploit that has been documented that is an authentication bypass by capture replay. And what happens is basically a man in the middle attack. And somebody could theoretically spooked commands to hijack the crane, and that's really bad because that's not just like a simple reboot where nobody gets hurt. That's somebody could lake demolish a building for Halloween. Oh, so so all right. Not not we but. Like, you never know. That is an example of something that is unlikely but the potential harp is huge. Exactly. So we should probably be a little bit more worried about that one. Yeah. And we are. So are they going to patch it they actually have in the latest firmware? Tele crane has it available. So construction companies can actually get it. And update the cranes firmware. So actually if you're operating a telegram for all four of you update. Firmware update firmware. Okay. Am because I am on the show. And Kevin is a kind person. Let's talk about chips because for all of us who care so much about edge AI there is a it's actually not a new chip company. I've written about it very briefly before in the newsletter. But this is a company doing edge AAI, and they're doing it, increasingly low power, which is awesome. It's company called sin TNT in. It has scored twenty five million in a series B round. It is led by Microsofts Amazons Madame a fund Intel capital in other investors. Who are like, yes, please. Can we get low power AI at the edge? So what's cool about sentient? And there's another company doing this style of processing called mythic is they are getting their low power by doing the computation in memory as opposed to on the processor. This is a fundamental change in the way computers. Work, basically. And it's pretty exciting. We'll have to see how this works in the real world. But its power consumption is crazy low. Kevin do you? Remember what the power consumption was. I don't mention the power consumption. But they said that it's a twenty Tara operations per watt. Yes. Which is ridiculous. Yes. So yes, this is a possibly big game changing kind of piece of technology as with all chip stories. That's kind of the big they're like, oh, we'll change the world with this. But keep an eye on it. 'cause we definitely need this. Okay. Now, it feels like time we're actually get kind of reprise are up debate a moment for our voicemail from the IOT podcast hotline. Which by the way is brought to you by Shlapak with a variety of stylish insecure electric locks to choose from smarter homes. Start with Schley you can learn more at slate dot com slash IOT. And we have a winner this month for our door. Lock conned. Test. Lemme grab that guy's name. Oh, our winter is Michael who is actually the person who we're taking the voicemail from this week in a coincidence. That has now happened twice. And we will start the contest anew in November. So if you would like to win a Schlegel door lock, plus wifi adapter, and this is a very nice stored luck. Please called leave us. A message on the IOT podcast hotline, and you will be entered to win that number is five one to six to three seven four two four. And now let's hear from Michael can Kevin this is Michael from Rochester, New York. I don't know if what I'm looking for exists. But I'm hoping you can help me I have a few life ex mart bulbs in my house. And then only recently dawned on meet at a great place to put another ball being the laundry room with a motion sensor by the door this way, my life would turn on its soon as I stepped in. I don't currently have any kind of smart hub. I'm trying to avoid getting one is the life XBox work on wifi. I tried searching for wifi connected motion sensors, all I could find where some that are part of a home security kit. I couldn't tell if they would work with string five, you know, of any wifi motion sensors. That would work with what I'm trying to do. And if not which smart hub ecosystem will you recommend? I get into for this. I'm also wondering if you're aware of any weatherproof motion sensors, I can use with whatever solution I need to go with my laundry room. I have a couple of the life x plus bulbs in my floodlight above the front door to help with the night vision of my nest. Hello doorbell. Okay. Oh, Kevin his the death hubs happening right here. So it's unclear from your voicemail, Michael if you're using home kit, so we decided to answer this question in two ways one if you're using home kit, we have a solution for you and to if you're not using home kit. We're gonna explain why that may be kind of an issue for you in talk you around. It sounds like you're using string affi-. So that'll be okay. Right. If if you're using home kit what you could do is get a home kit motion sensor say one from fa- borrow money. Mona consider a door window censor for the laundry room door because I only say that because we typically close our door. So we don't have to hear all that noise. But either one would work, and because those are bluetooth censors, you would not need a hub. Although you technically would have a hub with home kit anyway or could with an apple ipad or an apple TV regardless in the home app. You could create an automation to have that work for you. Okay. And so eve also makes one of these sensors I'm gonna add a little caveat there. You will want a hub in your home because if you doing laundry, and you don't have your phone with you. It's not gonna work. So well, it depends on how far your laundry room is from your phone is why what I'm thinking that is now I will say macro view is a great great system. I actually have the exact same thing in my laundry room. And I love it. Here's where it gets complicated. If you don't use home, you might find a wifi sensor, and we did find several, but there's no way necessarily to tell that wifi motion sensor to turn on your life ex lights because you don't have that interoperability layer happening. Which is what home would provide? So in that case, you can buy a wifi sensor in the bad news is there's none that are great out there, at least from the reviews that we've seen at least from the reviews, I home mix one there's a couple. No name brands that make one. So what you're going to look for de-link actually has one that works with if you're going to look for something that works with if or string affi- is a wifi based sensor and then you'll use after string affi- to set up the win. This detects motion turn on lights. And then you're also gonna want to have a toggle that says after a certain number of minutes turn off the lights if no motions detected. So keep that in mind, I'm gonna tell you that Hugh makes everything you need to do this. It is a little bit expensive. But that's what I'm using in my laundry room, and in my master bedroom closet. I use plain white hue light bulbs, and I use a Hugh motion sensor, and I set that up inside the Hugh app. So that. Way, you're not going full, home hub and the Hugh hub talks to Google Madame a and home kit. So that would be what I would tell you to do. I know it's not ideal. And then you do have a hub. So of all those options, I feel like we've given you the tools you need to find the right motion sensor. Do you have a preference on hub ecosystem at all? Personally. You know, the Hugh ecosystem is really nice they keep working on it. So in now, if we're talking about like smart things or wink, I prefer wink, as do because it's just easier to navigate so Michael. I hope this helps you feel free to let us know what you decide to go with because I'm kind of curious, and hopefully this helps anyone else out there. And I will say I do love that particular interaction. It's very helpful. So that really that takes us to the end of the new segment for this week. And stay tuned for our guest, Alexandra Deschamps on Sinoe who is going to be really dropping some serious knowledge about Bill. Building a smart home design and business opportunities, and what has happened in the last one hundred twenty years, and what we can learn from all of that. So stay tuned for that. And now, let's hear a message from our sponsor bit defender. Hey, everyone we are taking a break from the internet of things podcast for a message from our sponsor this week sponsor is bit defender. And I have Alex Balon who is chief security researcher at bit defender. So this week we're talking about parental control and the bit defender box. This is your smart home cybersecurity hub. And as a parent I wanted to ask you can technology. Do anything to help parents concerns around things like bullying and predators online? Yes. Absolutely. I think about it. There has been a need for peace because most about both close who shows that cold issues for preteens cyber glean and believe in general is a teenager problem, essentially. The immediate loss. We've designed a component that monitors the labia all ski majors whenever they in coke or anything that Joe as a flag that's not five thousand with many many methods to do that can parents rely exclusively on technology for something like this. We would recommend guested obviously were going to go out peril is truly believe about. It's the buttons was also busy about look good. He lives close up acknowledging what through blame these that visiting flags for example of the child is compensation of teenage abuse. Where somebody tries discuss something. But really interested though in New York or when there's an exchange of nude images. That's nothing flab or when somebody asks the PJ vote on exists. So what we're doing these presenting the that the happened without actually? The content of the event in with that message would dulling the button to have a compensation the major. That's our approach to these. Okay. How does this protect my child's privacy? Their secretions, Laura, for example, remai- sit at be was involved in critic over six hundred cap by harm himself, gut forbid or something similar so up for doing that for sending the battlefield geishas. Saying of Billy was in Baltimore critical position with Ken. We don't know how bad it was. But what we're suggesting is that you have a conversation reveal and make sure that the president is okay, how exactly can technology help with a laying a parent's concerns about bullying technology that Golda will be able to monitor what's happening with teenagers. But at the same time sent him on vacation to the pattern and the developers of technology will have to have very difficult fast also balancing privacy with. Security, and I think that we've managed to achieve that balance Whitewell with but the boss this sounds reassuring. So where can our listeners go to find out more absolutely Vic and go to defend them dot com slash fos. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the internet of things cast. This is your host Stacey Higginbotham. And today's guest is Alexandra day shown sound Sinoe, Alex. She is an industrial designer and the author of a brand new book called smarter homes. How technology will change your home life? Hi, alex. How are you doing today? I'm really well. Stay safe. Thank you for having me. Oh, I am excited. We last spoke probably sometime in twenty fifteen and we have actually communicated for years. You are at is not watch on Twitter. You've designed a connected product for the internet of things all the way back in. Gosh. Was that twenty thirteen the good night lamp, I actually came up with in two thousand five but will ignore them. I made my first batch in twenty thirteen. Yeah. So in this was a great idea. This was basically when you turned on this lamp somewhere else in the world someone who had to corresponding lamp it would turn on for them. And the idea was just a easy way to communicate kind of where are you wearing your day? I don't know how to describe it, Alex, you should describe it. Well, I like to think of it as a nice way of sharing presence and availability for a family member his into different time zone. It's really nice. They're saying, you know, now's a good time to call. I'm around right now. And it just opens up that space and that day to day routine with your family you've been doing this awhile. You have practical experience feel like we are war torn individuals in the smart home. So what made you do this book? I wanted to write a book for the longest time. And I sort of looked at the smart home space because designing the good night lamb being an industrial designer by training working with super large brands as customers through the years as a consultant, I sort of knew a lot about. This face. And I thought oh, while I'm sure you know, I can do more research with someone else's book to and I really couldn't find anything beyond a bunch of, hyper practical, and somehow, you know, quite dry books on networking in the home. Most of them were very old and most of them were very very specific. And I'm a little bit of a design geek as well coming from industrial design interaction design. So I thought it would be really interesting to look at how often we've heard about this idea of the home of the future. Really? I we call it smart home. Now, it was the home of the future in the fifties. It was the efficient home at the turn of the last century. But we've always had this sort of obsession with the home space, and I wanted to explore that in the book going back through history. What has changed because when I think of smart home now, I think oh internet connectivity in that's probably what most people think or actually if you had asked me probably six or seven years ago. That's what I would have said. And now I feel like I would say. Say, oh, well, it's got to be connected to the internet. But more importantly, it has to have some sort of intuitive help for me, it has to have some sort of AI capabilities. So it's not just remote access to things. But I'm curious what your take on the evolution of the officiant home. All the way to the smart home is. But I think that your description is pretty accurate in the sense that I think for both you, and I are people working in the technology space in we probably think of a smart home is being technologically enabled home, whereas actually for it to become a reality, quote, unquote. You've got get a lot more people to buy something that turns their home from what they have now, which they might not think of this smart. I think they just think of is their home into a, quote, unquote, smart home, and how you get someone to make that leap of faith. Really is. I think the history of every new consumer technology. So we might try to convince people to buy, you know, voices system right now or connected thermostat. But that's because we try. To convince people to buy completely new brand spanking new homes with loads of things embedded in it. We used to call it D'amoto in the nineties, and that kind of comes back to a bunch of people who met actually in the US on something called the smart house project in nineteen eighty seven and the point there was to say, oh, it's going to be like a thing by even IBM got involved and had something called the IBM director. So you could buy a home, and you could buy the retrofitting of your entire home with connectivity. Which at the time is absolutely not the web, as we know it now, but you know, the idea of kind of early internet early technologies in early applications of new technologies for your home to make your home life better, quote, unquote. What I found was that actually the definition of what makes a home better is exactly the same definition as fifty years ago, which is not too far away from the definition of one hundred years ago. So the story of how we talk about connectivity in the home hasn't changed. And then I was really shocked by. Okay. Yes. And I remember going into an IBM smart home in like two thousand four and they had like RFID interactions. I can kitchen counter that would interact with your food bags in your medicine, and it was crazy out there and kind of neat. But I was like how do we get this integrated into the home, which brings me to something you've written about in your book, which is the way that this sort of stuff? Creeps in is not the way the tech world tends to work it. Creeps in individually. Not as an entire system. Yeah. Absolutely. I think that there's something kind of quite fun and interesting about how technology giants tend to look at the home space as if it was a comprehensive system like, you know, it set a little bit. Like, I o t feel look at an image in Google of internet of things. It's always this mathematically comprehensible system of things that connect the things, and somehow there's trickle down effect between the one thing to then trigger other things because that system's diagram is so. Appealing mathematically in computational. And that's how we built against the web. But it's really not how we build homemaking and how we operate and think about our homes most of us want to turn the key in the morning to leave for work and not think about the house forevermore. But somehow, we are, you know, men to be buying products. That will make us think about the home all the time. Notifications all the time about the home space, which we were kind of hoping we're just leave behind and get on with our day and goes here, friends or go out or whatever it is. But now we have this kind of needy child that's part of a larger system that includes our location and includes our by jaded includes our energy use and you have this weird systems effect. That's being created for us that I don't think is really that appealing. I think it's also a weird thing to want to get people to do which is to just change their lifestyle from one day to the neck. I because technology in new products change our lifestyle, even when it's just too biased spirit is her to you know, eight-year vegetables in the shape of spaghetti. It's a lifestyle change. Yeah. There we go. For those of you guys who are is those who are not into Zoodles Arzu Keeney noodles made with the spare lizard. Yes. So I think every purchase is a leap of faith. And to think that an average normal household who have you know, so many other fish to fry they've got jobs to keep safe guide family's health to kind of tend to that. They suddenly want a whole bunch of complex interdependent directions with their home. I think is really strange that actually is true in I feel like a couple weeks ago. There were a couple articles out that talked about this kind of backlash in this idea that the home was making people neurotic, so somebody wrote about their connected doorbell. And they were like, you know, every now and then I get these notifications. And they say something happened outside my home, and I co chat can I'm freaked out. And then I'm like, oh that was nothing. And eventually this person took it out 'cause they were like, I don't want these notification. So that's various point. So where can technology actually help improve our? Lives at our home in still work within our existing. I guess systems are what we think we want the home to do. Well, I think that they're key in core marketplaces for smart home technologies in the people who've tried new technologies the most around me than this is anecdote old, but it's always been new parents new parents who are sort of completely, you know, taken aback by the task at hand, the new task at hand of raising a small child, and Secondly, any time that you can shave off of even switching the lights on is a welcome, you know, intrusion in a sense. And so I do think that for some people these applications are useful. It's just that. They're not useful at a scale that I think most large companies would be happy with because apart from home computers mobile phones, and a large appliances, we share almost nothing of our home life. We don't have the same. Furniture. We don't have the same decorations. You know, we don't share the same comings and goings, and so we can't buy on mass the same things. Yes. We'll probably all by the usual toilet paper and instant coffee or something, but that's actually rare. And so I think that there is going to be very niche uses for specific products to make our lives easier to a degree. But I also think that we probably have gone past the point where we do wanna make our lives at home easier. I think we want our lives outside of home to be easier, especially women, especially in two thousand eighteen and I think that there is an interesting dynamic there for companies to think about that to think about what women's lives are like now because women tend to be the audience for smart home devices, and what their needs might be because actually remote access might be something they really want but not necessarily for the doorbell. It might be something else. Entirely so thinking laterally in thinking outside of the two Home Box as it were. I think is really the next job for large companies. Oh, see. And I'm thinking about, you know, hey, I would love for it to be easier to buy toilet paper. And that's where things like, you know, Amazon has the dash buttons. There's some interesting fulfilment things out their ideas that have been tried target tried to program called fetch where you had like connected, soap dispensers, and I think connected. Toilet paper. Roll actually. And it would the idea was you would put this in your home. You would connect to the internet. And when it became low, you could set it automatically reorder things, but people didn't trust it fetched didn't even make all of its money that it wanted to unlike a Kickstarter, I think there's also something funny about treating the home. And this is something that comes back to an early nineteen hundreds sort of era, which is treating the homeless a factory floor like things have to the for filled. Like, you are, you know, buying new materials to make a jet engine or. A car. That's not the relationship that people have with something even a stupid as toilet paper. So p- you may different decisions on soap. I know. I do continuously. I'm always trying new brands and actually four brands is is really important for them to be competitive in non become the sort of stapled to the point that people just completely stop thinking outside of what they have to offer. It's been the case for British banks, for example, as everyone moves to digital banking, people don't necessarily know about any other Bank in so they keep the physical stores in the physical Bank tellers, they have to have a retail presence in order for people to know that their other banks. And so I think in the home, we always want to know, you know, well, what is the newest? So by could be buying because it's you know, sulfate free paraffin free. Whatever what are the better decisions, I could be making for my family, and I wanna keep those options open. I am not running a industrial facility. I'm running a home. I like that. Okay. So running a home. What are the things then where are the opportunities for companies to come in and make a difference? You talked about new parents. Yeah. I think aging in place is interesting. But there is the paradox that most people who are older, they don't want to be monitored. This feels very invasive from a privacy perspective. So totally I made that. Yeah. Well, the aging conundrum is also a social conundrum. It's absolutely not a technological one. And I think that companies, for example, voice assistance. I would love to see them. Take more of a leap of faith in actually supporting families who have complex needs. I don't really see why a home assistant with any voice functionality wouldn't also enable someone who falls in their home to call out for help. And for the service to be called through that boys. Assistant that should be something that companies do. Want to take on it might be done through some more open source voices assistance in might be something that's already come out. But I you know, I just haven't heard about it. And I think that that social care piece is not necessarily going to be resolved by something you can buy. But it is definitely going to be something that something like the good night lamp in part does that trick which is to make people more at ease about connecting. But there ought to be other things in there ought to be other ways in which someone can actually connect to their neighbors connect to their community connect their city because most older people are living alone. And that's the problem. So all the effort that we put into convincing people to buy Musso or soak more consistently. I think we ought to think about how we get people to socialize more. I like it and talking about people you have an interesting point about power dynamics. And how in the home we've had a history if you're super rich, or you know, well off that you had servants. And even now, we're replicating that. That dynamic with our digital assistance. I mean, heck, they're called assistance. You tell them what to do. And your point seemed to be that. We shouldn't be developing tools that replicate that dynamic. Yeah. I think it's a really interesting and very dangerous dynamic to constantly think of technology services in the home spaces being some kind of subservient entity the fact that most assistance it's now changing thank God. But most assistance were, you know, women's names. Now, I saw this yesterday. If a smoke alarm sounds like a woman is more likely to or sounds like someone's mother, it's more likely to wake up the kids. There's this constant sort of fear. I think of dealing with automation in the home space in a way that moves away from this idea of servitude. Most people, you know, if they have maids or cleaners who come in once a week or so they will usually clean before the maid comes in because they sort of feel so guilty about using someone else for their home needs. And part of this is because we live in a specially North America. We live in homestead are enormous compared to the space that we used to have a hundred years ago, but we still have these tasks that we feel need to be done. You know at a pace. That is incredible. We have basically removed most germs from our children's environments to the point where now were actively encouraging parents to make sure that their kids eat dirt somewhere because otherwise they're immune system doesn't develop. So we've sort of overdone it on the home side. I think and I think this idea of having someone help you do that is something that we probably should shift in terms of language in terms of application may be you can have a friend who does something with you. And that's a completely different power dynamic than having an assistant. And it's also completely different dynamic than having someone come into your home and help you do something help is help and it's not necessarily subserve. You know, a friend can help your parents can help you do something. But somehow the language that leaves commercially is still very tied to the idea of service in servitude. If he compared two hundred years ago, well, you know, yes, people had maids in live in Mainz and live in cooks, but they also cared for them. And they were paid. They were housed. They were fed. Well, now, namely don't even really do that now unless you are super rich you actually usually work together with them. So you may exactly I mean, so there is kind of a shared work dynamic as well. Less is the downton abbey upstairs downstairs situation, which was pretty pretty rare reserved for you. It was the elite, and they actually were the ones who really didn't understand new technologies because 'electricity men's or especially plumbing meant that you wouldn't necessarily have a servant bring water up to your bath that they had just plumped in the middle of the living room. And they just didn't get the point of, you know, having a bathroom, which would have a completely different. Ability where which you could just operate yourself. They're like this is a downsizing of what I have now. So they're not necessarily the best people to look to for inspiration cat it. Okay. Well, the book is available in the US on Amazon. It's called smarter homes. How technology will change your home life? And it's also available in the UK from the a press dot com website, and it's twenty pounds. If you're in the UK, and it's about thirty dollars for the digital version in the US, Alexandra. Thank you so much for coming on the show this week. Thank you for having me. Stacey it's always a pleasure to talk to you. That's it for this week. Thanks so much for listening. And remember if you'd like more, I o t news sign up for my newsletter. Stacey on IOT dot com. We'll see you next week.

Google Kevin Amazons Microsoft Honeywell Apple US Austin Stacey Higginbotham Hugh Alexandra Dacia Sincino Alex Balon Michael
TU97: The Dynamic Maturational Model (DMM) of Attachment With Guest Patricia Crittenden (Part 2)

Therapist Uncensored Podcast

56:27 min | 2 years ago

TU97: The Dynamic Maturational Model (DMM) of Attachment With Guest Patricia Crittenden (Part 2)

"We the professionals think we know the story and with pack our own words into the mouths of people who cannot remember and we think we're being helpful. Hey everybody hey everybody welcome to therapists uncensored. This is a podcast that breaks down interpersonal science into practical and understandable tidbits and as you listen I can just imagine little lightbulbs of insight appearing above your head. You're going to be surprised and touched at what you learn about yourself as you get more accurate and indepth view of your mind in your heart and as you figure out those close to you in their best uncensored brings you decades of experience with interpersonal psychotherapy relational neuroscience modern attachment in anything else they think will be helpful and healing humans now here. Co Host Dr Anne Kelly in soumare yacht hello. I'm Anne Kelly and in today's episode my co-host Sumirat jumps back in with our guest Dr Patricia Tricia credit in now. This is the second of two part interview but don't worry if you hadn't heard last episode the first part because they can stand alone. We really couldn't can be more honored to have gotten so much time with Dr Credit and that we needed to episodes to be able to cover all the material. She has to bring to you all today. She's a Rockstar really you may not know her name but she has studied directly under Mary Ainsworth and work closely with John Bobi. She has through decades of research an publication. She's developed her own model of how we attach and adapt to the world and that's called the dynamic meditational model. You'll hear Dr Critics Refer Vertu as D m M. She is going to discuss that model in fact died accredited represents. One of soon is motivation for doing therapist. Uncensored in in the first place is because we love the opportunity to bring someone who is inspired and taught us so much personally to our listeners and actually for the longtime the listeners out there. You'll probably hear her influence on the different ways we have discussed relationship and attachment strategies on the podcast but today she's going to walk us through her model and how how it contrast with the more traditional ways of Yoon attachment and in this episode she's GonNa help us understand our attachment strategies and how they shift our lifespan we talk about about from infancy through childhood adolescence all the way through adults giving us loads of insight about how our needs and challenges shifts so much coach after this episode you're going to have a much deeper understanding about how you or your kids or your partner all your peeps self protect and adapt tapped in really as well as how psychopathology can develop and what to do about it to continue to develop more adaptable self protective strategies the you know this interview as you can tell is just chocked full of Amisi information so much so that it may be a bit more for super nerds out there but don't worry we're. GonNa follow ups you and I with a highlight of what takeaways in episode to follow but if you're a first time listener and it sounds a bit more technical than you bargained for when you signed on and then you may want to I tune into maybe one of our more regular discourses like episodes fifty nine to sixty one to get a better feel for more usual rhythm so if you have a chance though before you start to listen to Dr Credit in Sioux today. You may want to go the show notes. If you're at home or at work and you can print went out the slides. It could help just clarify some things. She speaks about in the discussion but if you're driving you can't don't worry about it. You're still going to gain a ton before before we jump in. I wanted to shout out to our newest co executive producer open city psychotherapy so thank you they are our newest platinum. Patriot members and we'll tell you more at the end of the episode about how to become a Patriot member yourself but a big. Thank you all right. We're going to jump in with Dr Credited speaking about her model. Now you asked me to talk about demon versus disorganization and in order to talk about dimensions. I really do have to do that. Ainsworth had three patterns A. B. NC. They had some patterns within them. Mary main found a fourth pattern and she called it d. and she gave it disorganized. Disoriented whereas crittenden also found a fourth pattern and she called it a sea. That's me I'm Kriton but in the model that you can see with the slides. It's an I know if you're listening you. Don't see this for Ainsworth. I have three boxes. ABMC for main and Solomon's ABCD. I four boxes. ABC Indeed for CRITTENDEN'S DEA man. I have almost a half circle with pie I slices and at the top of this pie are the bees at the lower edges on either side are the eighties he's on the right hand side and sees on the left hand side and in the middle is AC combinations and and outside of the circle. I talk about information true cognitive information for the things and true through negative affect for the sea and omitted negative affect for the extreme as and distorted exaggerated hydrated negative affect for the extreme seeds and integrated true information for the B.'s. I'm already already saying an infant saying you can't talk about the strategies without understanding the information that the infant brain is using and the as the bees and disease emphasize different sorts of information. We've we've got to go neurological here all right. That's infancy off to the preschool. Years and Ainsworth doesn't have anything there so I've crossed that out out on my slide the ABC D has now changed. There's A and B and C and their boxes like they were but indeed has become decontrolling. This is the macarthur the Cassidy Marvan. It's been under many different names budgets produce decontrolling that is in that category over in the d. m. in the lower edges of the infant model have. I've now been filled out in their pie slice and we have compulsive caregiving and compulsive compliant in the as it is and aggressive and feigned helpless. He's so just so that people can keep following you you so the as for our language has been what we're calling the blue right which is formally called the dismissive avoidance. Eh that right. That is the word avoidance thank you. Marvin doesn't work beyond infancy and you'll get yourself into all kinds of problems problems. If you take the behavioral word avoid and apply it to a across the likes fan changes. You really need to hear hear about. NBA's Mike Compulsive as compulsive caregiving surpressed. She's withdrawn. She's preoccupied. Get by with things that aren't me. I need her attention because if anything went wrong for me I need here to protect me so I'm going to comfort her. I'm going to bring her things. I'm going to be super cheerful if she's depressed. She doesn't want to hear me complain. She wants to see amy's cheerful. I will get more of my mother's attention. If I take care of her absent state deter depressed date her withdrawal and compulsive compliance is my mother's angry and she will punish me hard so so I will be obedient. I will anticipate her needs and I will do what you want even before she asks because this will give need the sample where I got it. I've been abused and I know the consequences of not doing what she wants right and and it still fits that blue formerly called dismissive because its version of dismissing ourselves and in order to be close to the caregiver we have to shut out and inhibit our own negative affect and be attentive to the other right yes in this day. Arctic relationship that should involve communication from me about me and communication from you about you and then some some negotiation about the differences in what you need right now and what I need right now these preschool age children have have given up awareness of their own needs in their own feelings and vay organize their behavior from the perspective of the parent giving the parent what the parent needs because that makes the relationship better on the other side of the model the CS which I insist agreeing why green because I was deviating away from blue which is B. and blue who is the color of the sky and its color of water and it's the color of my eyes so it's the best okay so in my extreme seas. I see one two was little threatening a little disarming. Disarming is a gift of Bob Marvan. I don't want to steal his thunder but now when you get into more extreme seeds that will call three and four C. Three and C. Four four children who are not just threatening the openly aggressive. They're the ones who hit kick shout as they get language engaged. They will say unpleasant things and feigned helpless. Oh boy so the much more than Israel the C. Three aggressive pretends to invulnerability ability and hides his fearfulness endless feigned helpless pretends that they are incompetent and they hide their anger her and you the clinician see in preschool age type say children who are brought to you. You need to know that the opposite half of the strategy is in the mind of the child even if it doesn't show very often in behavior so so you are brought by the back of the neck. The collar is held in the child is brought in to you an aggressive child the bullying bullying child. You should not be treating his anger. You should be treating his hidden fearfulness. When he doesn't doesn't feel afraid then he will not act aggressively? If you treat the aggression you will not find the problem beautiful if a little feigned helpless the victim of all the other kids who beat up on an angry to be he's sexist here her but it can be a boy this little helpless kid with these somatic problems for which there is no medical reason and always beat up by the other kids if you work on the feigned helplessness and do not address address the inhibited rage fury that this child feels and feels they dare not show. You won't find the problem. You need to know. What makes this trial angry. Why do they feel that they have to inhibit the anger Bangor but they can show the distress and you need to do that in a family situation and a diabetic situation because this child is lured this strategy at home with their parents. You need to know why they're using that strategy. You won't solve the problem. If you don't see the part that isn't readily visible right. It's a split off and then this correlates to the old preoccupation it's a preoccupied with part of the cell feelings but not all of the selves feelings so both of these patterns a and C involved involved splitting the as split their own self from the other and they focus on the parent the other there they take the perspective of the powerful person the seas split their negative affect showing either the vulnerable terrible or the invulnerable affects and they hide the other from view now they actually do alternate days but the extreme ones the ones brought into treatment alternate them in a little flip not fifty fifty day alternate them ninety can and if you overlook the ten you're overlooking where the power of your therapy can become active if you doing gauge the parents super clinically powerful brilliant our guys hang on it only gets more exciting it and now kids kids are introduced to what other people teachers and other kids experience and in my slide for the ABCD Z. D. Model I still have those four boxes and their names have been changed but they have become gray boxes not black boxes axes because the ABCD model doesn't really have an assessment that they can use for the school years. The Diem does have an assessment and no. We have a new seep pattern. We're going to call punitive and seductive and now this type sees strategy is one of digging in and using what I will call false cognition. A false cognate is deception. These are the kids who can lead you to think you know what they're going to do and they will stab you in the back or they are the kids who will lead you to think they really really like. They said do shoe into the relationship punitive which I took crown that decontrolling punitive to line those patterns up punitive is in my language obsessed with revenge. This individual is losing access to information because they are so obsessed asked whether avenge the seductive child is obsessed with rescue. They are so obsessed obsessed with getting their attachment figure to rescue them that they are losing information about protecting themselves these. They're really important patterns. They do end up with somebody recommending treatment for these children and if you try to offer treatment only only to the child you will probably be unsuccessful. These strategies are learned at home. They're used in families. They work most effectively actively better than any other strategy in the family of these children. If you don't know what's going on in that family you can't change that. Strategy must have parents who are willing to change with you. It's the parents are unwilling to participate date and they are unwilling to change in contrast the teacher to change. She's got thirty five kids in that room. She's not going to do it for this trouble someone right. If you can't get the important adults to change you've got one hour. Maybe once a week in which to help this this child to recognize as a school age child. He's six seven years old up to puberty in which to recognize is that his strategy works in certain contexts in doesn't work in others and help him do identify. This really were with mom this. This is the best thing I can do when mom angry but get me in trouble with school. This is not the right strategy at school contextualized the Strategy School Age Children can talk you can do very concrete reflective thinking with them. Um and if you can get them to see you had the best strategy for some situations but a failing strategy in other situations then you can use your our to practice a different strategy. That might be useful. Both at school with your dad with your grandma. If nobody else is going to change with you you're probably limited to trying to keep the door to a new strategy open rather than being able to implement the new strategy. You're playing a waiting game. I was just thinking that you're playing defense a little bit. You're waiting until late adolescence when the child can foresee living outside. If it's family yes I can totally holy. See that but you don't want to close off the possibility of using the school-age child's mind recognize contacts and the possibility ability of alternative behaviors. You're keeping options open route. You're keeping your options open over the a side. There are no new strategies chains but I forgot to mention that preschoolers use false positive affect children using type as strategy are almost almost never referred to therapy but children who are murdered by their parents are more likely to use the type as strategy than any other strategy. These are the children who learn to smile when it hurts learned to smile when they feel like like cry. They make their parents feel better. They make professionals feel better. They make teachers feel good. They're doing what they're supposed to do. When they're I supposed to do it and they make social workers feel better even if you put them in a foster placement they smile all the way they don't kick and scream. These are the children that lists lead us by inhibiting the negative affect almost every case of trials doubts I that I have analyzed has had a child who was cold smiley or sunshine or sweetness sweetness and in the reviews by the government authorities we hear things like shea skipped down the holes of the the hospital with all one hundred and twenty eight active injuries on her body including broken bones and being may she aided and chase smiling and skipping and the halls goals and you think it's good that's false positive affect that professionals do not recognize as a very theri important danger signal when the context is negative and the child is smiling or laughing or we're kissing be worried be much more worried then they angry acting out child showing you. There's a problem they he worried about false positive negative affect occurring in negative dangerous circumstance. If I could get any one message out to child protection people it would be this one. You not be confused by false positive affect win. The situation gene is dangerous dangerous higher dangerous higher dangerous higher and it's meant to put professionals parents adults. Eddie Ladies and we buy it. We lap it up. Adolescents will you will save it for ABCD. I still have my gray boxes is but that's not quite accurate. The ABC model does not have an assessment for adolescents but they use the adult attachment interview. The adult attachment interview was written for parents of six-year-old children. It's the product of Carol George Jenner colleagues. It's intended for people who have six year old children of course been used much wider than that but it was not intended for adolescents and it gives soon leading results weight applied to adolescents who have not moved out of their parents home are not economically independent do not have had their own children do not have a partner and do not have the brain maturation associated with adulthood so it's used but I put it integrate box walks because I think it's the wrong tool the DM on the other hand. May I clarify so you mentioned Carol George so that's the AP Right Carol sure The adult attachment interview it was her doctoral dissertation the AI the A. I. Not Mary main no not marry me. Oh oh I thought it was made in Solomon that did they. I know absolutely not Maimon. Solomon did disorganization in infancy over. I Right Carol Carol George George Kaplan Nancy Kaplan right manning and Carroll George went on to do the A P as well correct in Maine and Goldwyn did the A. I. Discourse Analysis. The interview is Carol. Donald George is where the original interview okay so I just always need to say that because the whole world attributed canary main right and Carol George created this wonderful interview. It is really true. I've always associated with main A. P. With Carol George. I'm really glad to know that so I it can also correct it as I speak of it you mentioned earlier that you encourage people to use the DM but earlier you said to do the AI with the the protocol of the diem but the DM is not a standalone assessment. The dam is not an assessment analyzes assessment is new uses the strange situation uses the AI okay. Could you use it with the A. P. I don't know is so wonderfully successful successful. I have not put out the effort to learn the okay. I don't mean to interrupt you but that was that was actually useful for me. I really wanted to say the. Ai is magnificent ignificant and I don't want to take away from that in any way yes no no. I changed Carol. Georgia's interview a tiny chiny bit. I took away the questions about three wishes for your child in the future so that we could use it with people who didn't have children and I I put in a few questions your first memory some questions about anger. There are maybe three to four questions yeah that I added but I changed the discourse analysis quite substantially. I used everything that made golden had their discourse analysis analysis was magnificent in nineteen eighty-five it was the hottest thing around and I just couldn't believe how wonderful it was but when I applied it to an endangered population it didn't work it was developed on a super safe population educated parents Berkeley that had been geographically and maritally stable over six years. Yes an advantage population yes and I applied it in very disadvantaged populations and saw all kinds of discourse that didn't fit actually the truth is in the first place. I used it after being trained by maintain was with Karlen Lyons Ruth sample from Boston Austin which is a very risk sample and I kept finding interviews that didn't fit comfortably into the main. Goldwyn went system because this endangered sample had more so that was where I cut my tea in my own work. I'm expanding up from infancy in preschool but as a coder for Carlin I'm expanding down from the AI into that story moving moving to adolescence. The dam has a new category nets eighty three compulsive caregiving. We had a four compulsive compliant. Now we get five and six that are parallel to the school age see five and six eight five eight six in a five is compulsively promiscuous and a six is compulsively self reliant knees. These are the adolescence for whom no strategy had work to make things safer at home. The strategies bombed and bombed and bombed and now as an adolescent. They say they're using a strategy only me. I'll just rely ally on me. Nobody else is trucks. Were the my world will be defined what I can do for myself in Annetta. LECI- you can feed yourself dress yourself even get a job you can be compulsively self reliant. You don't have to be an in an in touch with relationship to survive physically but when you're all alone after puberty unless you really really enjoy masturbating. You've got a problem because in order to give expression to your sexuality. You need another person. A five compulsive promiscuity is used by some adolescents who find I think there could be the person for me out there but not anybody I know it will be a stranger and they go out and make superficial relationships that they carrie to intimacy very quickly and then Lo and behold they find this person doesn't live up to expectation and they're back to self self-reliant and it's an alternation between just me anybody else. Anybody is if somebody out there for me. You failed me back to just just me. It's a really sad condition and depression shows up quite frequently among the compulsive as in especially especially the a five sixes and the fives compulsively promiscuous are running the dangers that come from and being in a sexually intimate relationship with someone that you do not now and there are physical dangers and psychological dangers you know have have on both the A and the seaside denial of information. It's not just that the as omit omit their negative affect but they go and they deny no that doesn't hurt. I didn't feel pain no I'm. I'm not frightened. I'm not they deny the negative affect and on the commission decide they deny true causal statements about what caused what and here we're getting into a strategy addity that is coming close to what our president can do and do quite successfully in the news that has to be denied truecard mission the the information is there. Everybody knows it as their your strategies for the assessment I took the. Aa I used the same structure but change the questions to ones that were suitable to adolescence so I asked about got your best friend. I asked about your romantic relationships. Not just your mother and your father but now these new attachment figures that are forming in your life one. That's usually your own gender your best friend one that is often a romantic heterosexual sexual but the question were equally well for all sexual orientations. It isn't stated in gender specific terms and instead of asking the end. How does this affect your parenting. Do you do what your parents did that sort of thing we asked. What have you learned about yourself self. What would you tell someone who was just beginning to get to know you and you might want to know them very well. What would you tell them about yourself. So don't we ask age salient questions about the kinds of things did adolescent spontaneously reflect on we followed oh the structure of George's. Aai which is the structure in Bull Bays volume three chapter four of information processing she took it straight from Bobi and I take it straight from her but I changed the questions to make them appropriate to to adolescence nice. I call it the transition to adulthood attachment interview. That's wonderful. Hey I say now. We're just about done adulthood. ABCD is now in black boxes because the A I of Maine Georges Ai Main mm-hmm Goldwyn and now Hessy's system is well validated. It exists so black boxes. We haven't appropriate assessment tons of data data but we still have four boxes. I have forgotten what the current number is but I think we're around seven billion people living walking on the earth and if you use this coating method they are all condensed into four boxes and almost everybody of clinical interest is in the box called you cannot classify and cannot classify was introduced by Eric. Sea Nineteen Ninety six. It is a formal remove category. It does not mean I don't know what to do with this. It category called cannot classify and it's different than unresolved or disorganized organized disorganized drops out of the model and you cannot classify replaces it in the coding system. It's unresolved resolved or classify okay and so disorganized no longer exists that term is not the term that is used the AI okay okay but it's the same box right. The terminology has changed. Okay over in the damn we now we have the bottom quadrant into our circle open and now we fill it on the side. We get an a seven which is delusional idealization sation. Most clinicians would be familiar with this. It's the hostage syndrome. It's when you idealized the person who has endangered argue that you cannot protect yourself from and we call it delusional because when we see it the person responding in the AI why I realize if this person in magnificent terms and yet this is the person who broke their bones who held them hostage rich who didn't feed them who was verifiably dangerous and our speaker denies that Information Russian and substitutes false delusional idealization and when the category is fully present when the strategy is fully present the person creates delusional protective events that not only didn't happen they could not have happened may are impossible to have happened once again. You might want to give thought to presidential characters. There's and remember my model allows for an A. C. You can sample one side and the other yes there. There is a and it's an externally assembled self and I use a symbol to emphasize. This is not an integrate itself. This is a bunch of things put in one pile and they are done so from an external source. The self is not generating information. This is an eye atra genetic pattern in one hundred percent of the cases where I have seen it in the professionals have created we have created by putting a child in so many different caregivers caregivers homes and so many different therapists. Abe triple feeds back through words and behavior information about who the child is that the child ultimately has no self generated information and and has only externally generated information much of which is highly inconsistent but still due reported. Dr so-and-so said this. I remember my foster mother so she this and it's told in the voice of a therapist through report of a professional report it discussed in the third person it's told with professional jargon and individual. The jewel is cut off from themselves. If you want to create one of these people you should put a child in foster care. Have it not workout cout and move in have the child get more upset as he will get and the foster parents say we can't handle this upset kid and move in the few times until somewhere around puberty early adolescence you drop them into a group palm while giving him as many therapists as possible possible as many different people as possible and you might do a little bit of self story work that should really pull this this thing together because we the professionals think we know the story and with pack our own words into the miles of people who cannot remember and we think we're being helpful and we have to defend ourselves. You know what I mean so then and a good foster parents you know has to construct the story to protect themselves of like I tried everything and you know nobody is more protective than child protection workers because if they make a mistake their job well and their sense of themselves. I know the future perfectly. I think it's really important to know the strategy that is used by by foster parents. When you're doing a case and evaluating the parents and the children are in foster care always evaluate valuate the foster parents equally why because they aren't always okay let me show you what I mean and I should tell you for for me? This is really important. I was once a foster parent and what I learned told me about my experiences. A foster parent a fifteen or twenty years before this so doctoral student used a is to look at the attachment strategies of foster parrots. She found that every single one had an unresolved loss of a family member ember in childhood. Now didn't adulthood in childhood and I went. Oh my God me too. I was a foster parent and my sister died when she was fifteen and I was twenty and did twenty-five I became a foster parent and I had trouble and I have many explanations for what went wrong and the services were terrible able and I'll tell you all about it if you want no one had asked and I didn't think to tell and suddenly this research says says there was something about me that I brought to our relationship without any of US knowing. It likely affected did that relationship. It affected what I wanted from my foster children. It affected the strategy. I used to try to get it and it probably affected why I felt like a failure. Win didn't come the way I wanted to. It was like a lightning bolt doc and then fifteen minutes past and I went oh my God again. My husband had lost his brother when he was was six seven years old and his brother was three from a degenerative disease completely different than the loss of white sister but here here we were to foster parents both of us with unresolved childhood losses line was all over my mind it was so awful and and so recent to say anything. I had to look through it. His was so far away in so unmentioned that I didn't even find out about got it until we've been married quite a few years and I didn't immediately think of it. When I had this finding well I know have I have not only the A is of this study but another twenty thirty forty a is most of them coming out of court proceedings meetings because I do a lot of attachment reports for courts and require if the child is in a foster placement that we do the same thing with a foster parents that we do with the biological parents unresolved loss after unresolved lost after unresolved flaws and often in many different ways. Sometimes the foster parent is depressed about it. Sometimes they almost almost denied sometimes. They dismiss it. Sometimes they say it was really a problem for my mother but not for me so they displace place at we need to know what are you doing with that loss and how does it affect the fact that you have chosen. Is it to bring into your home. Children who are going to leave your home. You GotTa lose these kits and these this kids have already lost their parents and you've lost somebody what the interaction amongst amongst all these losses past current and expected so what I've shown now on the slide you and your listeners will get to see when they look at the slides is the adult model enlarged and it has those strategies we've been talking talking about from be three down the a side down the seaside to psychotic but they a see there are non and psychopathic. ABC's anyone to see one two's eight three or four c three fours but when you get to a seventy eight C seven eight in your in deep water and I will tell you that is among the disorders that we don't know how to fix so we had had differentiate. It can't be fixed from we don't know how to fix it but I'm quite convinced. We don't know how to fix it now. What's interesting about this slide is to look outside of it and see the information processing from true affect and cognition distorted it distorted and omitted and falsified and denied and delusional with integrated true information at the top and integrated transformed information at the bottom because if you're going to work with these people any of them you don't want to just change change behavior. You need to change their mind so that they manage information differently or they won't behaved differently in the future. They'll go back to what was familiar. So which strategy in this model is vast every behavioral strategy is the right that strategy for some problem but no strategy is the best strategy for every problem. We need need them all so be prepared for new problems. You need the be information processing strategy. Where are you recognize and can use all the transformations of information without getting stuck. Look I deceive occasionally. Sometimes I feel I'm in a dangerous coroner and the only way out is deception and I can use a false smile and I can mislead you is what I'm going to do and I can deceive and I know it and I'm conscious and I know why and when I'm finished and I feel L. Safe I don't do that anymore. I go back to more normative behavior. So you need to recognize all the transformations you need to be able able to use all the strategies you need to be able to get out of all the strategies and if you're lucky and you grew up relatively safe you you need to learn to cope with danger that would give you a mature. B or in Mary Maine's terms and earned earned B where B is for best but it's the best information processing a mature be unlike an infant infant does not require safety. They require a clear mind so Nelson Mandela can grow up in danger and spend much of his adulthood imprison nothing in that should yield security and come out balanced. I and mature as a B because his mind is freed from his developmental past. I I want to be does it. Require external safety or we have condemned most of the world to not being balanced. Let's and psychologically secure. It can't do it before adulthood. I'll throw in my little factoid. The brain continues is to mature until about thirty five and you're thirty Fifth Birthday Zhengrong together best day and then it begins to deteriorate awesome but you can't be mature B sixteen or nineteen. Maybe not even at twenty five all right so I'm putting up my circle or call again and now I've drawn a gray line right horizontally through the middle. It's cutting a three four and save three four and now upper half to the circle and a lower to the circle. The upper half is very unlikely to have psychological psychological disorders. It's very safe background above that halfway point. The profitability of psychological disorder is quite low below it it increases as you drop down and now I'm putting a black line up where you can see it and that just cuts off the very bottom of the circle between the gray line and the black line are the people who come to various services be a child protection or middle health treatment. This is where most of your patients are. I hesitated. I know the word client client to me means that you're prepared to negotiate the services you get the people really need. These services. Don't know what services they need. They're not prepared to negotiate. Patient comes from the word to suffer and that's what they are doing. They are suffering so I take the medical term patient. I don't think we have an equal here but between these two lines are the people blue ordinarily see below the black line. The very bottom of the circle are the people who are a danger to themselves olds or to others and for the most part. They're really not safe out in the public. They need a protected environment that can be prison resume that can be a mental hospital but they need protection either from themselves or others need to be protected from certainly for some up them they feel better when they are in an asylum and I'm choosing that word because our oldest silos lose gave you asylum from some danger. We never said what it was but the home say come from so now you ask are there dimensions and I would say yes in my model next slide. There are two dimensions horizontally. There's the source of your information. Do you believe mostly in temporal consequences. Do this and that will happen. Where do you believe mostly in your feelings particularly your negative feelings or are you right in the middle where your balanced and you trust both sources of information the further you go out on the damn circular model toward at the edges the more your strategy is distorted with transformed information and you're reliant on only one kind giving formation because you are increasingly excluding the other information from your thinking said the extreme as he's exclude negative affect the extreme sees exclude temporal contingencies. They don't believe what what causes what again our favorite unnamed example vertically we have another dimension which is the transformations transformations from true untrendy formed information what I see now predict accurately what is likely to happen in the future to increasingly transformed information where you increasingly generalize is stay information you falsify the information you denies some information you create delusional information and as you move down in this series of increasingly distorted transformations the individual has learned earned that the transformed information predicts danger better than the UN transformed information so I use a common example sample. We all know people don't like them who have tight little smiles and you ask them how they are today and and you no no when you see that tight smile that there is going to be held to pay this person smiling is very angry and you'd better predict the opposite of what you see. If you want to predict the future that's the whole notion behind the transformations. You're using information to predict the future and you transform it to get a better prediction so here my two dimensions what source of information do do you rely on most or both and how much do you transform the information before you can believe it to very simple simple dimensions but it's not quite the same as saying. This strategy is worse than death strategy. Each strategy fit some context. Wow that's kind of what I have to say. Let me try to summations for people who work with other people whether they're social workers. There's a psychiatric nurses or psychiatrists or your typical psychotherapist. The I would be know yourself you are. You're the tool. You don't have anything else when you're in front of someone. The manual won't rescue you. You are the tool no that too well understand yourself and giving you the data on the Brits and I'm telling you that most of us in the middle health professions are not balanced balance turned fees no yourself. The second point would be worry less about changing behavior and more. You're about changing the way the patient's mind understands information that brain is going to organize nine their behavior now and in the future if you don't change what's happening in the brain. You have done the job yet. I'm stunned uh-huh so incredible. I feel like I have learned so much. Can you say if to reach you where they can find you. Google Google Patent crittenden. You'll get a website on the website. You will find my email if my phone number is still there. Don't use it. I'm never never in the country. I do not answer the phone use email. Okay try you answer everything every December I do attachment in psychopathology -nology at the tablets stock center in London probably two decades of doing that so they can go to London books raising parents. It's available on Amazon. It's easy to get and then there's attachment in family therapy perfect. Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. We hope you enjoyed the talk before. Were you leave. This is super important in order for us to keep bringing you this kind of cutting-edge material. We really need your help particularly. If you are a professional I use it for clients or your own professional development or if you're an interested individual that are using it as part of your own therapy and you really feel like it makes a difference to you or any of your family only members we ask that if you can that you give to help make this podcast accessible to people all over the world to believe it or not as generous as our patriots have been so far. We haven't quite yet covered our costs for production so any help is so greatly appreciated of course only if you can afford it but we have an ambitious goal and we are trying to hit hit one hundred. Patriots are one hundred episode which is coming up super-quick so see if you can help us do that do that join. Patriot dot com backslash rush therapists uncensored with that. We Really WanNA think our newest newest members are platinum member mentioned the beginning is open city psychotherapy be and you will see their up on the website the gold nerds we have. Rs Lila Brayden Kate Hollingsworth and Dan Penelope and then for our nurse we so appreciate you to Lisa Simpson. Juliana Stevens Terry Ca Shetty Celia Rebecca Weiss Patricia Ona Janey Martis Nicole Sonnenburg Lucinda vet and Anna Caputo. Thank you very macho your generosity and your support and we hope to be able to connect with you through the Patriots site. Thank you for joining us and we'll see around the BIN pissed uncensored as an Kelly and sue Marriott. This podcast is edited by Jack Sanderson.

Mary Ainsworth AI ABC Patriots Carol George Dr Anne Kelly Carol Carol George George Kapl crittenden partner John Bobi Maine Solomon Ai ABC Dr Credit B. Dr Critics London Dr Credited
Molly Wood: In A Changing Climate, How Can Tech Help Us Survive? | 4

American Innovations

48:35 min | 2 years ago

Molly Wood: In A Changing Climate, How Can Tech Help Us Survive? | 4

"From wondering, I'm Steven Johns. And this is American invasions. Today. We have a special interview episode with one of my favorite voices covering the innovations, and the news of tech. She's a veteran business journalist who spent time at seen at CBS the New York Times and more. But you've probably heard a voice on the daily public radio program. Marketplace, Molly wood is the host of marketplace. Tech a show that demystified the digital economy, and how the world of business and tech influences us in unexpected ways. She's also the creator and co host of the podcast. Make me smart and recently took home Gracie award for her work as a host in public media would have spent two decades covering the tech industry. And she came on the show to talk about why she's drawn to this world and the role of tech in one of the biggest issues we face today climate change. She joined me for marketplace's studio in Los Angeles. I hope you enjoy our conversations. American innovations is brought to you by chase. So you're ready to downsize at chase. They get it. You've had the garage sale. You've shipped the last kid off to college. You've even sold your old house. Wait, you sold your house, where are you gonna live, relax? Chase has your back as a chase customer. You're guaranteed to close on your next home quickly. Or you get a thousand dollars so you can skip the storage unit and crashing on your son's futons. Chase gets you in your next home faster. Learn more at chase dot com slash AI chase. Make more of what's yours. All home lending products, are subject to credit and property approval rates program. Terms and conditions are subject to change without notice, not all products, are available in all states are for all amounts. Other restrictions. Limitations apply. Homeland in products offered by J, P Morgan Chase Bank and a an equal housing lender. Molly would we are so excited to have you with us on American? Innovations this week. I am delighted to be here. Thanks for having me. We've just finished up a series on the innovations behind the special effects in the regional Star Wars trilogy. And I know you're Sifi famine, and hopefully we'll get back to that a little bit later but I wanted to start bringing us kind of back to earth. With with the question. I mean, I've been a fan of yours for for many years, obviously, like many of our listeners, I'm sure a big fan of marketplace. What was it that drew you originally into covering the technology world? What, what kind of brought you into this, this particular space as a as a reporter and commentator? I mean, I feel like I wanna say Star Wars, so that I don't have to come back to earth by, I guess I will. If that is the effect the answer. Please say that perfect continuity. It's so funny how you have those experiences in life that lead you in a direction, and you didn't really know what was happening at the time, the sort of simplest answer is that I happened to be lucky enough to move to the San Francisco Bay area in nineteen ninety nine which was, of course, the height of the first tech boom, and I moved as a reporter, and I was just a, you know, general interest reporter working for the Associated Press, I'd done a bunch of sports, and because the tech industry was such a big deal at that time I got a job at a magazine that covered apple it was called McComb daily Mak home journal I don't think it's around anymore. Tiny law magazine, and it was just sort of an accidental introduction to becoming tech turn list and ended up being a wonderful bootcamp because it was a pretty small magazine. And by the end of my time, working there, I think I was writing the whole thing. So I learned a lot in a short period of time. But it also. Made me look back at my life up to that moment and realize, oh, I've always been into this. You know, we had apple computers at my house, really early. I always picked out the nerdy guys to date. I had like a pager and a cellphone really early. In college, I got wired magazine, you know, and so it sort of, like you don't realize the pattern until you get to the end of the pattern. But I realize now that, that those interests said, always been there, I find that a series of very specific moments in my life, that I remember encountering new technology, and having this feeling of like, oh, wow, there's something truly. You know, indistinguishable for magic in this said, is that, you know, just seem, so like seeing the original MAC, like seeing the regional MAC graphic interface was one of those moments seeing the predecessor of Google earth. The keyhole program where you kind of have that satellite view, and then, like zoom into your roof like they're just as moments of your life or you think, okay? There's something. What I'm seeing here. I you know, I'm one of ten thousand people are seeing this for the first time, but ten million people are billion. People are going to see it in the next ten years and being able to track those things, I think it's just it's such a fascinating world to, to be in the middle of think. Oh, absolutely. And it's funny, I feel that way about like the one single product that I currently feel that way about is the chrome cast remember when the chrome cast came out, and it just I like the chrome cast solved the single hardest thing about computing, still, which is networking. It is so hard. Why does it have to be, you know, there has to be a source input if you're trying to network with your TV, there's got to be like the wifi this, and that and the handshake and all these different things and to be able to sort of just magically plug a thing into the back of the TV and then have video from your phone start playing on the TV? And then stop was at den. Do that seamlessly without any conversation about it. I remember thinking this is like a sincere technological achievement that people are going to benefit from even. Oh, it's not, you know, saving lives. I think we could argue okay let's talk about some of the more kind of global momentus implications of tech right now. You've got a new series on the, the daily radio show and marketplace marketplace Tak about the role of tech in, in climate change specifically, and it's really wonderful series of listen to the whole thing, is it still going. Or if I listen to all the episodes, it's still going out, we kicked off with a full week of coverage and then we'll be doing stories every two weeks. Yeah. Great great. Yeah. It's, it's everyone should couldn't tune. This is fascinating. It has an interesting angle. It is not as exclusively focused on the, the kind of imposing threat and inevitability of this, the city's future. But in some sense about Texas -bility crucially to kind of daft this future. Which is a controversial idea in and of itself. I want to dive into that for a little bit because I. I think it's a kind of thing that our listeners would really enjoy talking about tell tell us the general thrust of the series, and then we can zoom in on a few of the issues. Yeah. The series we're actually calling in how we survive, and we really are trying to take this very deliberate approach to saying that the climate has changed. You know that, that regardless of how much we manage to slow emissions in the next few years, even if we manage to avert, you know, there was that UN report that said, we essentially have twelve years at most to avert, the worst effects of climate change. You know, to slow down warming enough to avoid a two degree celsius rise in global temperatures and in talking to actually happened to deserve casually. No, this climate. Scientists who was one of the recipients of the Nobel prize for the science on inconvenient truth. And she was saying, you know, listen, the point has tipped here and she said as a climate scientist, feel like my part in the. Story is done. We've done the models, we've made the predictions we, you know, have tried to slow warming, but it even one and a half degree celsius, even if we avoid two degrees. The results are already catastrophic the extreme weather that we're already seeing is harming human health and productivity and will continue to do so. And she said, really, we're at a point where the only way forward is engineering and I thought, well, that's terrible. Obviously. But for me, like kind of hopeful, because I thought, okay will great that makes it my story, like if we can start talking about technology now, if we can start talking about solutions now than this is something that I can grasp in. It's a way for, for me to have a part in a conversation that, you know, we're all having them, we're all worried about what our future's going to look like and I'm a mom, and I'm thinking what's going to happen to my kid. And so we really decided to sort of look at this part of the climate conversation adaptation, that's been around for a while. It's not a brand new part of the conversation, but it's always been a small part and in part because compared to mitigation, which is what people that term that people use when they talk about trying to slow down warming rights to be more renewable to reduce fossil fuel use, so that we can pollute less. There are many people who believe that all of our efforts should be on mitigation in and in slowing down warming and he may be even reversing it. But as extreme weather gets more and more severe. We're all over the world the, the conversation about adept tation and the money and the technology and the development has gotten also a lot more real just in the last even few months and year in two years. And so we're, we're pretty. We're going to be following the story almost literally, in real time as some of this money goes in this direction some of this technologies are developed, and as the conversations are happening, but it, it's really been fascinating already to do this reporting. And, and it also just it makes me feel like we're covering something really is important matters, a lot of people. So I want to get the terminology clear here, the listeners on when I first heard about the series I, I was imagining that you were positioning, it kind of mitigation versus geo engineering or something like that. Right. So that mitigation is, let's try and get off of fossil fuels and change to nobles and all of that. And then there's this other approach of actually let's do carbon capture. Let's like remove carbon from the atmosphere directly and all those kinds of proposals. You're actually putting both. Those under the umbrella of mitigation. Right. So we can redo we can reduce the carbon in the atmosphere either by changing our lifestyles, or by some other kind of intervention that actually been cleans up the atmosphere through some kind of geo engineering separate to that is another idea, which is out of tation. Yep. And that is the idea that look it's going to happen. We want to continue to mitigate. We want to continue to explore everything. We can, we wanna keep that, you know, if we can stay under two degrees. That's fantastic. However life on this planet is going to change. And so what can we do to protect ourselves from that change? Because it on some level at least a part of it is inevitable. That's, that's the real focus. I if I have it right, exactly. That is the real focus for the series. And I think we're you know, as far as I know, the only ones sort of doing this really specifically in an in depth, and like I said, it's very new a lot of these technologies are still sort of imaginary. A lot of what we're doing is data gathering and risk assessment and modeling. But it is really interesting in your. Starting to see this drive in private investment, of course public investment and entrepreneurship. And this is a controversial idea. Right. Just like geo engineering there, there. There's a long history of, of kind of environmental activists. And folks on the kind of cutting edge of understanding climate change, resisting this idea can you give us a little bit of that history? And explain where that resistance comes from. Yeah, it you know it's a couple different. They're a couple elements of this that are controversial. One, of course, is just this idea that if we take our eye off the ball in terms of mitigation that, that people say, look, you know, we get to the worst effects of, of global warming. There won't be anything to adapt to right. And, and that is a real argument that if you know that if things get that severe that adept tation will literally be impossible. And so that's one part of it. The other part is, of course, it just global inequality that rich nations, we already know there's so much social injustice and inequality that is part of the climate conversation. Rich name. Have polluted the poor by and large are suffering. A lot of the nations that are seeing the worst effects of climate change. Now are countries that don't have the resources to bend near their way out of it at all. And or didn't do most of the damage in the first place. And so there's this idea that rich nations than, you know, come up with some magical innovation seawalls or domes or massively, decentralized, micro grids that they will benefit, then the rich will get richer, you know, they won't necessarily transfer that technology to poor countries and then sort of the third part of it is related to any quality. But also this idea that, that it could be one author. I talked to Kim Stanley Robinson this, I author, he called it, a cultural fantasy to think that we could adapt in a way that wouldn't just let us off the hook that wouldn't just sort of let people think like, oh, it's fine technology will fix it. We'll just keep polluting and using as much coal as we want. So it's, you know, so the controversy is non trivial, but I will say on the. Other side of that argument back in the nineties when Al Gore wrote his first big kind of manifesto about climate change. He said that he thought at up was a kind of mental laziness for all of those reasons, but by the time that he wrote, his second book in the two thousands, he actually sort of said that he was wrong. Not see it as a moral imperative to pursue adept tation and mitigation at the same time because we are going to simply put have to figure out how to save people's lives. I think that one of the arguments for it as well is the sense, and this is something that's changed. I would say since the nineties gopher started talking about this is that I think there is somewhat of an agreement on the long term availability of renewable energy sources. I mean, just the, you know, kind of plummeting price of solar panels, and things like that, that, and the successive electric cars, that in the long run, we probably could build a society. Similar to the one. We have today without out putting much carbon into the environment, or maybe a carbon kind of neutral society, but it's just gonna take a long time to get there. It's gonna take longer than we want. Yeah. And in the meantime, as we transition to that we didn't necessarily have that vision twenty five years ago, wasn't clear that any of those solutions, we're going to work, and so it was it was much more dangerous thing. Now, it's like, well, maybe we can get there in fifty years. But what are we going to do in the meantime? And that's where the adaptation piece of it. I think the comes much more important does that does that seem right now it's absolutely true. And you don't wanna be don't wanna be helpless, and, you know, part of wanting that, that climate that mitigation purists will say is that it feels nihilistic that you're sort of saying, look, we've given up on the idea that we're going to be able to make a meaningful dent in warming emissions, and I, I don't want to necessarily give up on that. But at the same time, you know, you look at let's say California, which is thirty percent. Renewable. All right. Like we've taken a huge amount of emissions out of the air in California, but globally as nations, develop and become more industrialized and do go through the exact same cycle that Europe in the United States and other developed countries went through we're adding one hundred California's every year in terms of emissions and pollution so that even if you know everybody in the United States, gotta tesla, and we know they can't even make that many. Yes. Right. You still could just give everybody. If she could just crack that manufacturing nut and get us all tesla. You know, you would still have the equal and opposite reaction equal and opposite emissions happening in other parts of the world. And so it is not realistic to think that we are going to, in fact, mitigate our way out of a two degree rise in twelve years. And even if we don't one and a half degrees is going to wreak havoc on the planet. So you talk about in one of the earliest episodes of the series, the what you call the, the first step in adapting to climate change. You talk about climate intelligence. Can you tell me more about what that what that means? Yeah, this was kind of this great phrase that I got from a one of the private investors that we talked to, and, you know, one of the challenges like, certainly, we know there's plenty of climate data right? There are no, fewer than let's say forty global models for dealing with climate, but all of that data not everybody's working on the same from the same information. Not everyone agrees. On the information. Not all of the information is usable by the various organizations that needed whether they're water local water agencies or individual farmers or high level data scientists. And so what you're seeing now is a move to gather more and more information about what's happening across the world, make it understandable. Maybe use artificial intelligence to do modelling and predicting in terms of let's say parts of the country that are going to be uninhabitable, and maybe shouldn't be rebuilt after a flood and then also to provide their sort of the, the business aspect to provide risk assessment for real estate owners companies property managers, individual homeowners and cities and states and countries to sort of say, this is what I think, is going to happen. This is what your risk is. This is how you can hard in or become more resilient. And in fact, in a in a piece about it, there was sort of incredible photo from, I think Florida after. A hurricane house had been, you know, this family had built their house to withstand two hundred mile an hour winds and all their neighbors made fun of them. And there's this just unbelievable photo of that house still standing, while everything around is destroyed. Shaving, you know you look great. But it can be such a chore. Enter the art of shaving company that was created to help men, enjoy every moment of their shave by elevating it from a mere act, too. Well, an art, the art of shaving began with a husband and wife devoted to helping men solve everyday shaving issues, their original recipe for pre shave oil soon evolved into a complete start to finish shaving ritual called the four elements of the perfect shave they've gone on to develop the ultimate male grooming experience with products for Beard's skin-care body and fragrances. Elevate your shaving routine today. Listeners of American innovations can get fifteen percent off their first order the art of shaving by using the promo code AI experience the perfect shave for yourself or discover perfect gifts for every guy by visiting any of the art of shavings hundred stores are going to. The art of shaving dot com. Just enter promo code a at checkout to get fifteen percent off your first order and learned to love grooming again at the art of shaving. We often hear this complaint about the digital age that it's reducing our attention spans, right? Because we're just sitting there checking Twitter every five minutes, and we're all locked into this kind of second-by-second assessment of the world. We've lost our capacity for kind of long term thinking and vision. And, you know, those complaints, you know, are valid on some level. But the other thing I don't think people appreciate it enough. Is it the whole reason we're able to think about climate changes on the scale of fifty years or a hundred years and to talk with real, you know, empirical data supporting it about where we think the planet is going to be in terms of warming. And what that will mean in terms of, you know, the polar ice caps and everything else is because of these giant supercomputers that NASA and other people run that are able to do these climate models. And so yes on one hand, you know, the smartphone, maybe like lowering, you know, our attention spans and keeping us in that's kind of split second moment. But the other hand. The power of computers to build these simulations has enabled us to really think on the scale of a century in terms of what's happening with, with weather, and with climate, and that's we wouldn't know this was happening on some level without those supercomputers. Yeah. That's such a great point. And it's really true. And I think we take for granted the idea that we, you know, have all this data, we probably Ernie. No, this and there's a picture of every part of the earth, but we don't appreciate simple things like the cost of data storage going, you know, plummeting going down dramatically so that a company that has launched, you know, let's two thousand cubesats, right? The, the small satellites low earth orbit satellites, Ken, potentially photograph and deliver PETA bites of digital data that could never be stored or processed even five years ago. Let alone ten or fifteen or twenty years ago, and that, that, you know, Nasr's biggest problem right now is the. Sheer volume of data that they are collecting because the instruments that they have sent up into space are now so sensitive and so precise. And so that all these sort of technological advancements, working together, are actually not that anybody wants to undermine the science that's done been done before, but are actually able to give us really much more incredibly detailed understanding about what is happening on the planet. Whether it's, you know, the, the atmospheric river, that has been torturing, California all spring. Or you know what's happening to plants during photosynthesis and how much light there omitting so that you can tell how much actually carbon they're absorbing. I mean it really it all works together in concert. And when you ask data scientists, you know, how much better is the modeling? Now, how much better is this tech they go? You know, I it's, it's you can't even quantify how much better, it is. And how much better the data's going gonna get and that's partially rebuttal to the kind of, you know, thirty years ago? They said it new ice age was coming of hurt. Humidity's under his here. It's like, well, listen, thirty forty fifty years ago, we did not have the tools we have we understand the, the modeling so much better. Because we have these, these machines that we didn't have before. I'm curious about the adaptation tech that's out there. Like, what's the most interesting kind of example of, of some new emerging approach to adaptation that, that has caught your eye? Well, you know, one thing I'm finding I think we're all hoping for some technology and certainly we're not there yet, but I talked to I talked to one specific company called zero mass water, and they have created these internet connected solar, powered, panels, that you can put on a rooftop, and you can, you can buy them for your house, or their, you know, working with governments to install them on schools in developing nations and other buildings. And this is not a brand new idea. But what they essentially do is distill purified drinking water from water, vapor, and because they're connected. The internet. They've got this sort of complicated constantly real time monitoring system so that they can maximize water vapor, when it's at its highest based on micro climates and, and make sure that they're harvesting water, the the best time so that, you know, they're prepared for low humidity and cold in all these different things. And it's really cool technology. It's really neat. But what is also fascinating about it is that it gets to this kind of sub theme of adept tation, which is that a big part of it is going to be decentralisation. It's going to be the idea that we can't be that we have to be more self sufficient as either houses, or neighborhoods, or cities and that we can't necessarily rely on big centralized structures like the power grid or the water utility. Because when there's a disaster will be cut off from those systems. And so, you know way to reduce societal collapse when the power goes out is to have entire neighborhood. Kids that are on their own micro, grid, or have their own drinking water. And that, that to me is, so rich and interesting. Yeah, that's a great point. And, you know, I might prediction is that there's going to be a really interesting, you know, kind of public tipping point in exactly lines. You're talking about this summer fall, assuming that PG knee. We're talking California electrical. Inside baseball. You're the power system coming in, in California has just recently announced that in wildfire season when they're going to have, you know, wins that look like and hot dry conditions that might spark fires. They're just going to turn off the power to whole communities potentially for days or for for a week or more. And I think that to tabulation where everybody goes dark, you know, thousands, tens of thousands hundreds thousands of people go off the electrical grid because of a planned outage because it just cannot deal with the problem and the only way around that is to get off the grid yourself into have, you know, about a repack. That's driving your house and, and solar panel on your roof. I think that's gonna celebrate the adoption of those things. But it it's going to be a really striking moment because people really, you know, the extent which we depend on this is obvious plate. But like we are really depended on electricity on every level of our lives of what? Do you have people going without it for, you know, a week that is a that is a really meaningful interruption of modern existence? Yeah. So that'll be that'll be fascinating to watch once again, California for better for worse is on the cutting edge here. For for much worse in some ways. Yeah, but no I, I mean I completely agree with you. And I think it is it, it just really is an interesting subplot to sort of look at how becoming a nation of kind of preps. You know, disaster preps might be a really necessary. You mentioned artificial intelligence earlier. There's been some interesting developments in terms of AI in combating climate change. And some of these patients was what can you tell us a little bit about what you're seeing on that front? Yeah. And again, I would put most of this so far in the category of climate intelligence and, and prediction in some form and you have a lot of companies actually starting to say, okay, we're going to engage on this level. Like you've got Microsoft's. They've got AI for earth out of their research labs, where they're really trying to apply artificial intelligence to these huge data sets and what it really comes down to. Like I said, is that explosion of data and? The ability to draw connections and draw historical connections between data sets that have spanned a lot of time. And I and I think that's actually going to be really instrumental in terms of like I said, assessing risk in terms of deciding, where people need to build or rebuild or settle and then also in, in tracking literally food supplies. Agriculture is going to be huge part of this, and where water's gonna go and it's just it's all under standing, and I, I don't think anybody no one should continue to believe that artificial intelligence will be the panacea that like figures everything out. But because the volume of information is so high, I think some of those those patterns and that intelligence is going to be really important. One last question on this woman, I could talk to you about this for hours. It's so fascinating. And I'm glad we can listen to the series indefinitely going forward. But yeah, you're the, you know, there is this critique of Silicon Valley that? No. They're just working on, you know, these kind of trivial problems that are appropriate to, you know, high school kids or the old joke that all the innovation, Silicon Valley is now stuff that you, you know, your parents used to do for you. Now, you're you've got a little after. We'll do it for you. Do you feel like there, there is at least a subculture in the tech world? Particularly coming out of the bay area that is trying to tackle these big momentus problems. Is there enough going in that direction? What's your sense of the of the scene out there? I do want to say. I'm pretty grateful for my smartphone. Parent. I you know, I think that it's a little bit of a double edged sword. So it would be it is important to point out that there are several big tech companies, Google Microsoft, apple in particular, that are nearing one hundred percent renewable energy in their own perations. They've made their data's phenomenally. I mean, really is, you know, and I really feel like that should be pointed out. And I'm going to do a better job of that in future episodes. However, absent Elon Musk who really has actually made it his mission in some ways to save the planet with renewable and battery technology. None of these companies, you know, you could argue that making your own operations renewable is it's cost efficient. It probably gives you some tax benefits, it might reduce a future carbon tax burden like there are good business reasons for Google apple Microsoft to go. One hundred percent renewable. Emma's. John also, I think is an bucket. That's very different from saying, we're going to ban together as a coalition of, in some cases, literally sinking ships, right? The, the campuses of Google Facebook in Silicon Valley are predicted to be underwater under some pretty conservative models. So it's very different from these companies saying, we're gonna band together and create an innovation agenda. We're going to say this is the technology challenge of our time. And we have always told you that we're the smartest people in the room and this is our chance to prove it. You know, we're going to create venture capital funds that invest in entrepreneurs who want to solve these problems. We're going to devote a portion of Google X for crying out loud. This company has a division devoted to moon shots and have essentially said, you know, every time we've tried to pursue these technologies we can't figure how to make money off of them. And so I'm not completely willing to let them off the hook. For what is rally, relatively speaking inaction around climate change? We need fewer moon shots and more earth shots. Meanwhile. Yes, like meanwhile, Jeff Bezos just proposed floating earth floating space colonies. But and said that part of the reason we're going to need those. Look, I talked to a scifi writer who said, I wrote a whole book this as we need floating space colonies because we're going to have to get people offer it so we can fix what we've done to the planet and Jeff Bezos essentially said that. But you know what? He never said climate change. He said pollution. Like he's, he's planning his escape, but he's not willing to say that it's because of climate change that he's gonna need it. Support for American innovations comes from Capital One with the spark cashcard from Capital One. You earn unlimited two percent cashback on all of your business purchases. Think about it unlimited two percent cashback on everything you buy for your business that cashback can add up to thousands of dollars which you can reinvest back into your business so you can keep growing imagine what unlimited two percent cashback. Could do for your business. Learn more at Capital, One dot com. What's in your wallet? American innovations is brought to you by wicks dot com. The prospect of building a website can be overwhelming. It seems like their thousand decisions to make. I mean, the look and feel of your website is an extension of you and you want to put your best foot forward. I recently faced this very challenge. I needed a website to showcase the kids at uptaken of my book how we got to now and thank goodness wig. Made it easy to get started for free. I choose from over five hundred templates that are built to look beautiful and intuitive to use. I'm still working on the site making tweaks here and there to make sure it's exactly how I want it before launch, and with wicks, it's been quick and easy to change customize or add anything I like I'm excited to get it live soon. So you can see it, and with the Bilton SEO tools that come with all wicks websites. I know it will be easy for people to find build a website of your own wicks today for free. And if you go to wicks dot com and use the coupon code AI you'll get ten percent off any premium plan with wicks premium plans. You get more storage, a free Demane for year and much much more. That's wicks dot com code AAI for ten percent off any premium plan. Okay. Well, I want to cover quickly, a couple of other big issues off of this, but starting on the theme of kind of what's going on in the tech sector in bay area. One thing that's been important us on American invasions. Is that the history and the future diversity in driving, new ideas, new technology? We'd just to really fun series on a number of important female inventors of the last couple of hundred fifty years in a partnership with Smithsonian you wrote a. I thought very smart and also kind of funny piece and maybe a little bit dark about your eighteenth visit to see s. Yeah, that was pretty cool eighteen visits there. I pity you. That's a lot of time in Vegas. Peter still tired. But so what, what, what do you think are specifically, we can talk more generally about diversity beyond the kind of the gender issue? But, but, but women in tech where where are we right now compared to compared to when you know when you arrived on the scene, and you said it was ninety nine. Where do you think what are the trend lines in, in terms of that? Yeah. You know, I think that there are definitely more women in the broom and, and that's I've noticed that. There's a slightly longer line for the bathroom at a conference women's bathroom. Like, sometimes there's actually a line, which is totally new. But, but I can't say that it's I nearly enough and that's really what I wrote about in that experience. It's ES that it had been a long time for me since I really walked, this EES floor as just a normal person experiencing that tech conference in all the things that it had to offer in what I found was that, like so many things, it's still didn't have enough to offer to women and more importantly, that the casual disrespect for women and their experience at a tech conference like that was still very much evidence from dumb. Joe's still booth babes there's still booth babes, you know, and NCIS is not even among the worst offenders since I wrote that column. In fact, people have sort of been nonstop tweeting me photos of booth, babes at various teleconferences that they're going to and, and that really speaks to not having enough women. Planning events not having enough women. You know in product roles at these companies, and then not to mention, of course, this sort of entire investment ecosystem. And you know, it's really interesting as I just did an interview with a woman who wrote a book about early Silicon Valley investors and venture capitalists, and, and it was shocking, how little that industry has changed since they started their careers in some cases in the eighties up to, you know, the twenty twelve twenty thirteen I mean, the book ended essentially yesterday with some really horrifying stories of venture capital and stories about how the change actually in the tech industries, not coming from within for the most part, when people want to affect meaningful change as diverse investors, and founders. They're having go outside of these traditional power structures. Look, that's fine. You know, maybe they squeeze the, the good old boys network down out of existence by building stronger better faster firms elsewhere in different parts of the country and investing in. Not just women. But people of color, people of different ages, you know, different gendered all of it. But it is it is frustrating, I think, to find that in order to make meaningful change. Most people are still having to leave, right. It's such a complicated space. I spend a kind of abounds back and forth between New York and, and the bay area in my own life in one of the things that I think, may be folks outside the tech scene out there. Don't fully. Appreciate is there are there. Definitely to discredit. They're definitely bunch of diversity problems in terms of women, particularly kind of, in the engineering sides of these companies, which is a whole interesting complicated problem. And then they're certainly underrepresented. Not Representative in terms of African Americans. But on the other hand, I think this is one of the things that's great about the culture, is that in terms of nationality? It's probably the, the most diverse industry in the United States, just the number of people from different countries, particularly because of the representation of southeast Asian Asian people, but they're huge number of, you know, eastern Europeans and Europeans who have prominent roles in these companies. And that site of it, I think is not celebrated enough, because it's a great. It's a great counter to Trump on some of since that, you know, what, what really works in terms of, you know, creating of a kind of a dominant industry, you know, incredibly in funnel industry in terms of, you know, products that are revered all around the world. Is the, the mixing of cultures and of nations people kind of coming from all around the world to gravitate to this place to invent new ideas, and that has has worked, and there's evidence that it works, and that is a some sense. It kind of a new achievement and we should kind of recognize that a bit more. I think it's funny because you could actually argue that, that is similar to the achievement of America itself. Yeah. Yeah. Just that, you know, it'd be the, the, the cat, the shining was the shining city on the hill like the place that everybody wanted to come to because it's where all the opportunity is, then it kind of mirrors, or should mirror that American story, but without a doubt. It's global industry is it is. It is an industry of immigrants. It's a foggy city on the hill. So very city. That is so doubt. And what you're on top of the hill. It costs a six million dollars for a two bedroom. So there's something that are not working out as well. Okay, let's, let's talk if she would things, we're, we're right around the middle of, of two thousand nineteen big trends that you're looking for, for the rest of the year in the tech world. What what do you have your eye on? I mean, I think we all have our I on five G, which is, you know, either gonna be the biggest vaporware experiments any of us have ever seen or a total game changer in terms of the global economy or more likely something in between. But when are we gonna say, when is that actually, when are we gonna see real five G products? I don't have a real, good sense of this. They're, they're they're, they're, they're trickling out now. I mean, I think AT and T and Brian have both activated small scale five G networks, and you are starting to see some five G capable phones. I think Samsung has announced some. You know, for most people, you're going to experiencing it, spirits it over the next couple of years as maybe like a hotspot, or you won't realize it, but you'll be on a five G network at a big concert because they can handle more simultaneous connections. I think it's going to be a long time before it's a meaningful part of our economy. What I find particularly interesting about it actually, though, is the, the stakes and the fact that, you know, a lot of what's going on with the United States government. And while way right now is all about five G and who's going to build those networks, and who's gonna control them. And, and there seems to really actually be tension within the Trump administration about who should build out five our director of telecom resigned pretty abruptly over five G policy, and there is the sense that there may be a part of our country that are part of our administration wants to nationalize it, that feels like it needs to be a, a nationwide infrastructure. Object. And then there's all of this kind of national security stuff getting wrapped into it, that I just find kind of fascinating. I mean I read a lot of spy books, but there's a lot of intrigue around five. What do you think about the tech backlash in general thinking about the rest of the year things that going on pretty intensive your last year and a half or two years? I did this interview on stage about a year ago with Andriessen Horowitz, the, you know, the two probably say biggest venture capless in, in the valley last year. And I asked them like what are you guys thinking about the tech backlash responding to that? And they, they just kind of blew it off. They were like, you know, these companies are unbelievably popular, if you look at just, you know, you know, consumer approval of apple or Amazon, and Google people. Love them. They're way, more revered than, you know, any other industry, and they and they kind of the attitude was, this is just, you know, people writing for the new Republic to another ten thousand of their readers who are angry about. These companies but there's no real backlash. That, that really struck. I thought that was really surprising. I think the evidence has shifted to words that being less and less tenable. But I don't know what's your, what's your take on it. I hate to say it, but I think they might be right on some level. I think that I mean I am a believer in consumer sentiment. You know. And I think that it starts small and grows big. And so, I think they are probably not being completely straightforward about worrying signs, you know, like, what I what I find when I leave the bubble is that people are to the extent that they are worried about technology, spying on them. It's, it's smart speakers. And, you know, like they're saying, I don't want an elected, my house listening to me. That's a very visceral thing that a lot of people can understand, and that is a concern that is building. And if I were maker of a smart speaker, a Google assistant type device, I would be taking that seriously that we, we have never had meaningful. Sustained evidence that people in America care, significantly about their privacy, I wish they did God knows I write about it enough that I wish it mattered. But we, we just don't see it and to the extent that people are losing interest in Facebook, it's because they're going to Instagram. And so, I think there is some backlash but I definitely think it is easy to overestimate it when you're covering this every day because the money you know, I'd try to remember, I'm on a finance and economic show. The money still shows us that mostly market forces are driving any declines, like apple is telling as many phones because it's a saturated market. Versus any kind of sense of, of outrage and Egger, now that said, I think we're seeing real meaningful conversation about the power of these companies. And I don't think that that is actually going to go away. I think European regulation is only gonna get more intense. I think regulation around privacy and data in the United States is, is going to happen in is long overdue. But I do think that the consumer tech backlash is not as big a deal as we might think it is based on our own coverage. Right. Okay. Last point, just mentioned, some, the listeners may not know this that you also trying to cover all of the range of your many interests. You also co host another fuck cast it's called it's a thing. Oh, yes. And you've got kind of random things people in people's minds. Trans tangents news happenings. Can you can? You can you give us one thing my side hustle. Yes. One thing from its thing that we should be thinking about as well. I love that show so much. How can I possibly pick a single thing? Let's see. I'm thinking, I'm trying to think of like the recent successes that we've had the recent. The recent we were so on the money with that thing like we talked about we talked about peak nail culture nail art reaching the point, where now that has transcended, the tech backlash may be hasn't transcended, but people getting their nails done, increasingly and incredibly fancy ways. That's a thing that is really happening in everybody's doing it. And then, honestly, the thing that we've talked about that's gotten the most feedback on this show. Recently is P milk. PA PA. Good milk it. Good. Good. For those who are lactose. I know for those who are lactose intolerant, and have been seeking a dairy alternatives. And I did not even know this P milk. And in fact, there was a story on marketplace about p proteins, and how that really is becoming a huge protein replacement p milk is a giant big deal thing. All kinds of people are drinking, and we had to have a challenge. We both had to try it on the show. It's, it's like in the it was in my corner bega, it's everywhere. I haven't seen that in New York, now maybe that's just because I'm not hanging in the right circles. But do you think is at a California thing originally that is moving? That's what I would say something that would have started in California. Definitely would have thought that we are. Also, the home of cashew milk, and macadamia milk and all kinds of things that as far as I knew did not actually produce milk. However, we have gotten emails from every part of the country about P milk, and I think your going to also now until I apologize, but it's everywhere you're gonna start seeing everywhere now. Thing for dictating the future as always volley would take you so much for being on the show. The real. Yeah, it was my pleasure. Thanks so much. That was my conversation with Molly would longtime business journalist and host of marketplace. You should also really check out her other podcast. It's a thing it's so fun next time on American innovations. We'll be looking at the birth of the birth control pill. Thanks for listening to American innovations be like our show. Please give us a five star review and tell your friends. Subscribe, where vailable on apple podcasts. Spotify Google in every major listening up as well as I wonder dot com. We'd also like to learn more about you. Please complete a short survey at wondering dot com slash survey. That's wonder he dot com slash survey. You'll have an opportunity to tell us what you like about this show and what you'd love to hear in future episodes, American innovations is hosted by me. Steven johnson. For more information on my books about science and innovation. You can visit my website WWW. Steven berlin. Johnson dot com. Our producers Jacqueline kin and Emma. Cortlandt Marcelino via Pondo is our audio engineers mixed by bay area sound American innovations is executive produced by marshal Louis. Her non Lopez for one day.

apple California Google United States Molly wood Chase art of New York Los Angeles San Francisco Bay Microsoft reporter wicks Facebook New York Times P Morgan Chase Bank
We ask a lawyer about GitHub Copilot

The Changelog

59:29 min | Last week

We ask a lawyer about GitHub Copilot

"What's up back this week. We're bringing his party to the change log nikkan. Easy anchors for hiller had an awesome conversation. Louis via co founder and general counsel at tyler. Lift talking about get up. Co-pilot the implications of an ai pair programmer and fair us from a legal perspective. Of course big things or partners. Leonard fastly unless darkly we love vicki fast and they keep it simple get one hundred atlanta dot com slash. Cheese log are being with is provided by fastly. Learn more faster dot com flags darkly get a demo dot com. This episode is brought to you by pond politics fresh ephemeral automated dev environments in the cloud and seconds. And i'm here. Yohannes landgraf co-founder of pod. You'll want us get a big announcement reasonably close bases valid. It is now time for dev teams to consider what automated dev environments can do for them. We have to say that. I'd say welcome to the party. Get having microsoft honestly. We've a very excited. Because validated to the developer community will pioneering the last year that development environments to be automated and we are not the right place and the right time to move software development to the cloud for everybody not just for developers to put the google. Facebook or shopping is left local development already. Several years get potus open source and provision for every development team on guitar gap and bit bucket club powered moments you can access your developer environments we upstream his code banning on your desktop or in the browser and soon also all chat very cool. This gets excited. Learn more and get started for free act. Get pod dot. Io pot is free for individual developers for fifty dollars a month can be self hosted and is available for every developer. Today again get pod. Io book this is this party a weekly celebration of javascript. In the web tune in live on thursdays at won't be m eastern tinian pacific. Watch the show live on youtube at youtube. Dot com slash. Change log or subscribe at party. Are y'all tom. Hello and welcome to j s party. I'm your host this week. Nikkan hoy greenland with me. Is chris aka bone skull bones called. What's up what's up neck. Welcome to the show very excited about our topic today and on that note i want to introduce our special guests and that is louis louis. How is it going. it's going pretty well. I mean i'm really excited. Chris clearly so excited to talk to a lawyer. Like i've just always really glad when. I see that enthusiasm. Oh yeah definitely. Factious isn't it. Are we allowed to say it's infectious now like it seems like that's one of those words that twenty twenty s road for us. I didn't even think of that until you brought it up. So a on my side. I think so. So let's tell us a little bit about yourself. So i'm a former programmer. I got a cs degree in the last millennium and worked in open source for a while. I got involved in swallows in college. Actually originally hacking on the lego mind storms very first generation going storms. And also just the links user right like this idea that People were building an entire operating system together on the internet was like but i was also a political science major and so i was very interested in this overlap of politics and power and computing right. It started off as just like i was interested in politics and i was interesting computers and i really thought those who weren't related and then by the end of the night he's like. Oh yeah actually these super related right. And yes i worked at a startup called zimmerman which worked on the desktop get and basically then after that i was like actually school sounds like it would be fine. Protect kids law school. Not fun but yeah. And then since then i've worked at a series of missoula as an attorney where i worked on his public license. Revision version two point zero. I worked at a big law firm for a while. Working among other things on the google oracle lawsuit for google and where fair use came up quite a bit. Which is something. We'll talk about today. Then i worked in the wake of media foundation and now i'm the co founder of a start up called tied lift where we are trying to make open source better for everyone by helping build a sort of economic and payment loop so that maintainers get paid to do all the sort not fun parts of maintenance but they're not fun but they're really important for businesses and enterprises so we're trying to close that loop as a business But yeah. I'm a copyright nerd at heart and so. I think that's sort of why i'm here today. That's awesome this kinda ties into a meeting. I had just before this where i was talking to our interns and really talking about. How like so much of the software that we use and so many of the big companies that we see and work with and use their products are built on all of this open source software. And it's really hard out there for open source developers in house kind of evangelizing. That and so. It's really exciting that you're working on making the lives of open source developers much easier. So thank you for that. We're not here to talk about open source too much today. Like specifically we want to talk about copilot and kind of get into that so Bones goal you want to maybe explain what co-pilot is going to get us going with that. Yeah so if you're not aware of what it is essentially it's kind of like an. Ai assisted auto complete on steroids. Or something. like that. And you're eighty may have auto complete suggestions of like. This is the name of the function in you. Hit tab complete it but it's a lot more than that. It does a things to try to give you more code. It tries to kind of like if you read a comment that says this function does that. It can try to write the function for you. It's good at automatically completing like boilerplate in so. Yeah right now get up. Co-pilot is it's is it. Is it called a closed beta. I'm not sure you have to like sign up and maybe they'll let you in but yeah so it's not it's not available yet. Yeah to that. Now when you sign up which i did on the first day through that process they ask you because right. Now it's only available as a vs code extension for and they ask you about your visual studio code usage. And i answered as honest as i could. Which is i never opened that up. So i don't have an invite lewis. do you have. Are you in that. So i do have an invite. I think it's fair to disclaim here. I mentioned that my first out of college was siemian. Those of you. Who are real old. School open source will know that zimmerman was founded by nat friedman. Who's the ceo of get hub. So i may have gotten my invite a back way. I didn't get one at first because my idea. These days is word. mostly she's a microsoft product. Vs code so admit. I got an invite purely. Because i wanted to troll people on twitter by trying to see if i could get. Vs code to write a license. But i admit time has not been on my side. So i haven't done that project yet but So i yeah the back door. Was there for me nan. I haven't talked about this much. But i felt like that was a sort of appropriate thing to delete on him for so. Yeah yeah i mean. I think it's fascinating right. I mean simply is like a. There's both this like the lawyer side of me. But i wanna say like boy. Why simply isn't as an example of lake and some of the examples of code coming out of it are like simultaneously amazing and also very much occasionally the like boy you know the robots are not coming for us anytime soon. Right like i saw. Somebody used to auto generate a function about calendars and it was like. Oh yeah you know. Months are thirty days long and years of three hundred sixty five days long and like apparently nobody's trained in on like the that blog post falsehoods programmers. Believe about time or dates. Or whatever like nobody's trained on that yet or you know. Maybe it's just not heavily weighted enough. But you know simply as technical matter right. It'll generate code but that code is not necessarily correct. You got a double check. So i've seen some amazing examples of it really filling in some and as one of those things i mean. I one of the things that i'm with my business hat on. I think there's this really fascinating questions about where it goes from here right because i assume again haven't talked anybody get up about this but like this is the kind of thing that once you get it in place the ways you can leverage it really interesting right leg. How does it know about third party. Api's because it could right like right now. It only knows about third as best as from what i've seen on the internet. People playing with it you know seems to know about this party. Api's just by reading other people's source code right but you could see like i bet get partnerships team is thinking like how can we integrate this like intelligently with their party. Api's right or like security. For example. this is showing my age programmer. Wise my experience of of security issues. I'm thinking purely about sea bass lake. String parsing kinda stuff frayed instead of with java it's like cross site stuff and things like that right but as from the examples i've seen online it seems like the a i is still like if there are a lot of bad code examples in the code base which out there in the wild there are it's going to replicate some of those security fails and what are they doing to train it to avoid some of those security fails. I don't know. But i think that's going to be really interesting again. With herod hat on as opposed to my lawyer had on We can get to the lawyer. Bits and second like i just think that's really. It's yeah yeah right now. it's just like i mean it's kind of it's pretty smart. But it's not that smart and it just outputs things at doesn't maybe in the future. It'll be cool. Something like that could just look at your code and be like you know what this is wrong and it would look at what you're trying to do in would compare it against known. Good implementations of that thing you're trying to do and it will alert alert you to problems like that would be cool too and so you know. There's a lot of places that could go in the future and that's to be interesting so we've kind of explain what it does and then a little bit of what it doesn't really do. It's still operating. Its data set is. It's training centers just source code. It uses like gpd three. I believe yeah. Open a i. Whatever is reading the scenes for them and so it's just like dealing with a lot of texts but so when co-pilot came out and people started playing with it and then on twitter. You see that you can give it certain prompts and it will actually generate code. That may have been. i mean. it's kind of obvious that it's getting the code that it's writing from get hub and so that's anything on get hub right and so a lot of people were kind of upset about this so like louis. Why do you think people were upset about it. You know boy. That's actually a deceptively complicated question right. Because i think there's so. Many layers of people are upset for like very business reasons. Brian like what if this code. That's created accidentally copyright infringing for my company. Right so like. There's you know i've heard. Maybe they're apocryphal. By now right. But like i've definitely heard at least some cto's the saying can't use this in our companies code base until there's a little more legal clarity right so that's one reason. People are a little angry. Like i think there's some sense that maybe get hub was being a little sloppy about that. Right says one source of concern. Another source of concern is simply just the emotional lake authors feel ownership over their code right like that's a very deeply felts for a lot of people certainly not for everybody but for a lot of people for a lot of authors and that's not unique to code right happens for authors of books music as well so we've seen some of the same kind of emotional reaction to like some people who get sampled some musicians who get sampled air like. Oh the so awesome like my music is being reused right. Like nine inch nails. Their stuff got reused by never actually said this out loud. so maybe misprint. Little nasdaq's right lake his stuff. Sampled from an old nine inch nails track and leg nationalities. like cool. I finally have a number one hit right whereas like a lot of other sample a lot of other musicians it sampled or like taking it to court right literally. So there's that like emotional component and of course there's like this added component of some people placed their code under licenses that are explicitly reciprocal right the ideas. That if you use part of my code you've also got to share with the world year code and the common name for those is copy left though. I think reciprocal in this case really capture something important. That copy left doesn't necessarily convey right. The ideas supposed to be a sharing and sharing like and so a lot of people who deliberately chose to put their code under that license. You know we're pretty frustrated about that. And so you know all those things sort of layered on top of each other to produce some pretty negative responses. Yeah kind of stepping back before we dig more into that like the legal side of it. I just wanted to discuss that. I haven't used it yet. I have used a similar tool. I think cold tab nine which was kind of doing a similar. Ai completion thing. But i don't think it was like completing foale functions. It was more like. Oh i see you're naming variable like this. This is a very common variable name or something out a complete it. I ended up turning it off because it was more noisy than helpful often. But it's i mean. I'm sure it's growing and getting better and all of that. But from a like an outsider's perspective looking at it there are definitely like good and bad that i've seen from it when i first saw it was like whoa. This is this is just amazing and not necessarily thinking you know. It's going to take my job tomorrow or anything like that but it was like. Wow this could really help. You know if i'm staring at a blank file. How can i get going with something like it. Seemed like a very good way to just kinda get something on the canvas so to speak to get going and whether or not it's correct you can kind of tweak it from there and it'll learn and get better over time it was also impressive that it didn't go like the route of some other. Ai stuff that's come out over. The years like microsoft has very coming to mind. It's good that it's not just immediately like going out with you. Know very racist code or something like that but it's so far been pretty positive like that and then at the same time i've seen like really kind of i'll just say like dumb examples of it where somebody like auto completed you know like an about me page and it auto completed till like the about me we including the twitter handles of get help employees and stuff like that so it's showing that it's literally just copy paste at that point but it is kind of in an intelligent way. So it's it's like straddling this line of like really simple and really complicated. And and really impressive that i think is An interesting place to be but of course. This is the early day so it's going to continue learning and going from there. I mean you know. Nick something that i was realizing as i was preparing to talk to you guys today actually a lot of the i mean even before like his tab nine there were a few other things like tab nine. There's also just been e auto complete more a time right of various sorts right like it knows what kind of code base you're working in. And it'll is one thing when it auto complete i mean we've had our brackets get matched automatically for ages in the amax right now but there's also been more sophisticated stuff that will re documentation and try to guess lx you know structures of objects and things like that and that actually implicate some of the same copyright concerns because at the end of the day. I mean we literally did have a huge fight that took the better part of a decade and cost hundreds of billions of dollars of attorney's fees on whether or not api like function names essentially in function declarations are those copyright -able. And you know one of the things that i think. That's an interesting careful. What you wish for kind of thing here is if a lot of this code is copy. Writable and fair use doesn't apply. It's not entirely clear that even those simple like. I'm gonna auto complete the function name from the standard library like some of those same arguments. That oracle us apply there right and has actually been sort of interesting and honestly a little frustrating for me. Some of the same people who came out strongly in favor of fair use when it was or when it was google saying yeah reimplementation should be fair use like basically when it was oracle stuff getting copied everybody was like hell copying is awesome and now it's gpl stuff. Like i get the emotional valence there right but from a lawyer perspective. Gpl copyright license and oracles. You know grungy terrible. Every lawyer hates it terms of service or standard ula around their code copyright perspective those are both copyright licenses right courts. Don't courts aren't in the business of saying. Oh yes but we really like richard stolman and we really don't like larry ellison so therefore one of these is fair use and the other is right lake. There's been some to me. Sort of frustrating inconsistency about people who until a month ago where like a big fair use proponents we get into the nuances of that because it is really complicated like the question of fair use machine learning is in fact a really complicated line and anyone who tells you that it's black and white like courts don't know what machine learning is so like the idea that you can say. Oh yeah this is definitely fair. Use or definitely not fair use. There's so much gray area in there we could go on for hours but oh pause and let you guys get in another question it was. Let's actually break right there. We'll come back after the break and talk about that. It's potentially terrifying just thinking about how the technical aptitude of a court could potentially decide the fate of software and that's that's terrifying more and more startups reasoning retold focus time on their core product. And that's exactly what it launched retail for startups. This is a program that gives. Earliest age founders. Free access to a lot of the software needed for great internal tooling and retailers were with thousands of startups and the trendline unnoticed was technical founders spending tons of time building internal tools that means at this critical stage. These founders were distracted from their core product. Goal is simple. Make it ten times faster to build the admin panels crowd apps and the dashboard most earliest days teams need and retailers bundled together a year of free access retold with over one hundred sixty thousand dollars part of discounts to save you money building retail apps with common integrations like aws among db brax segment. There is so much you can do with. Retool you can use these free press the bill pull that product and billing data into a single customer view tools that convert male workflows into fully featured after your team or tools the help non-typical teammates get access to your database to reading right data analyzing query. These are just a few examples. Learn more apply into lighting demos at retail dot com slash startups again retail dot com slash. Startups louis you mentioned that fair uses kind of it can be a gray area around the sort of thing. Can you go into a bit more about. I know this is the thing that continually comes off in. Trials is is this fair user. Not in so where do you think something like co-pilot lands. And so let me. I just start for those who are copy copywriters in the audience. That why you'd be listening to us if you're not i'm not sure but we'll start with a you know a little bit like so fair use. Is this very american concept right. It's not present in a lot of other legal systems around the world that copyright should be bounded right that that yeah of course we give authors a lot of rights. it's very explicitly in the constitution that we give them rights in order to promote the progress of the country. Right like that's literally the phrase there used to be a copyright blog called promote the progress. Right like the idea was that this was something that you gave to authors and exchange made everybody better off right and so in part because of that sort of founding intuition i the us court system and then eventually was transferred from the court sort of to put it a little bit in programming terms. The courts prototype fair use right. They sort of made it up on the fly when they ran into some problems. And then the congress sort of took those ideas that had been floating around the courts for several decades at that point even almost hundred years at that point and congress sort of re factored it and said like this is how we're gonna seal a phrase from one court here and a phrase from another court here. Put it together into one re factoring make it part of the law and then judges will sort of go on elaborating and clarifying that. And so this is done in the transition of if i'm remembering correctly the transition fair use into actual statutory law written down laws opposed to judge sort of making of on the fly haven't in the fifties and so very much the examples if you go back to. What was congress talking about. They were talking about things like teachers right. So if you want to use a few minutes of a movie in a classroom to teach some point fair use protects that right fair you says the copyright holder can't just unilaterally block that or if you're another like sort of canonical example is literary criticism if you wanna quote a paragraph of a book in order to prove a point about like this author's asshole or this then you can do that and fair use allows you to do that fair use does chris to your point about it seems like it comes up in court a lot. The whole thing about fair use is that it is sort of. I know it when i see it right. There are some guidelines. There's a four factor test that everybody applies but the fourth factor is sort of like. Yeah and whatever else we want to throw in the at the time right and that's because the whole point of it is like you know what people may be doing something new and different and innovative with this stuff and we don't want that to be we don't want authors to be able to lock that if we think it's a good idea right like that's sort of the core of it right so we think literary criticism is a good idea and important to note that it's criticism right like one of the reasons that that we have this fair use established is because if copyright holders could block that kind of use. Then you would only have positive reviews of books right like the authors would be able to say like. I didn't really like that review. Take it down. And they'd be able to us copyright to block that and so baked in like from the very beginning a fair use. One of the things is you really. Don't want authors to be able to just say i got about feeling about the at dot right you want copyright to have some sort of safety valves for like this is really important know. Similarly news reporting fair uses used all the time right to be able to say look. Here's a ten second snippet of this politicians ad for example and we think that this politicians ad is misleading. Let me use this second snippet to set the stage for this discussion of why. This politician is misleading. You write the creators of that advertisement have copyright in that ten second snippet. Right they could. If copyright didn't have the escape hatch of fair use they could use copyright to take down that new segment right because they obviously don't like that the news reporter as saying the politicians to you. Here's why and so copy rate originally existed for all that kind of stuff right but of course it was written in the fifties literally has no concept of software much less. What's a much less machine learning right. And so there's all. This settled stuff like academics. Don't sue over fair use very much because that stuff was all settled one hundred years ago right whereas software like it comes up quite a bit because in fact we have no idea right like we really don't congress has never really weighed in on this courts. Only way on in on it once in a blue moon. Right like a lot of the arguing and google oracle over is this reimplementation of the api affair. Us i mean. One of the key cases in in that was loaded. V borland which was about whether the dropdown menus on like an x eighty six p. c. in like black and green on your crt screen like a court found that those menus were a way of operating the spreadsheet in the nineteen eighties. And like so here. We are thirty years later. And we're trying to like one of the things you mentioned about judges. How much tech do they now. We were trying to tell them like well. Look the is sorta lake a menu in a spreadsheet in one thousand nine hundred eighty s and lake. How is any reasonable person. Suppose still like half find a reasonable so yeah tons of gray area and that's where fair use then comes in. This question has come up a lot recently. In these questions of we joke that you could write an entire casebook casebook is like a legal equivalent of you. Know sort of intro programming. Kinda thing right where you take snippets ironically through various of these cases. And you say well. Here's what a judge found about this. You butting lawyer should learn about the law by reading what the judge says about this and we often joked that you could write entire casebook about copyright just through the lawsuits that google has been involved in because they like early two thousands. They were just like you know what we're going to scrape the whole web can be great. We're going to organize all the world's knowledge and like average people are like yeah organizing the world knowledge and scan all the books scandal. The books scandal the porn There's a whole line of cases that are about google church and this one porn company. Who just the guy really just really didn't like google or search engines in general perfect ten but there's a whole line of cases about perfect ten google book search another huge one right where they literally just said. We're going to scan all the books and if you don't like it and the authors didn't like it there was a big extensive lawsuit from a bunch of authors and the us courts eventually found. No you know what like we understand you. The authors aren't happy about this but this is so transformative. Transformative use as a concept is not found anywhere in the statute but has really a lot of courts have found that a useful concepts starting sort of the mid nineties. The us courts found this idea of like. Oh well if it's really transforming how it was used if it was some way that the original authors wouldn't have conceived of didn't have a business in and if something really radically new and different and the book publishers. Were not in the business of creating something like we will book search and that's where the analogy starts getting really obvious right like we as code authors. Were we in the business of creating something like co-pilot the trans so far in the us has been the machine. Learning typically is so transformative definitely not always but almost always in the handful of cases. The courts have really considered machine. Learning courts have tended to find it transformative for us and that typically involves the training sets. Then yeah yeah. The training sets are really where there's a clear copyright copyright is really a set of rights which includes things like the right to copy it the right to redistribute it with the right to make reproductions and so the first step of training right. Is this. I like it. We're going to scan all the training set right and that and you're you're making a reproduction. Their right on you're making a reproduction for commercial purposes which doesn't always matter sometimes matters and so yeah you've just copied the whole thing. I mean google book search is a copy in a very literal sense of all the world's books and at least the training set right that initial training of you presumably open. Ai was not like ping and get hubs api for code snippets at every point during the training right presumably. They vacuumed it. All down and then did their training on it. So a copy was made so a copyright infringement has occurred in less fair use defense that right and courts have generally found. And there's some good policy reasons for this ray. One of my favorite papers in this area is a paper. I'll share link with you guys so that you can put it on the But it's it's a paper about how fair uses actually really important to building equitable training sets. Because we know that like a lot of training says this is not so relevant for code right but if you're doing a training set on like faces and you want a racially gender diverse set of faces in order to do your training on you're gonna have to use fair use because you literally can't buy a like racially diverse training set like it just doesn't exist because getty and like all these other photo services are like actually have all kinds of biases right. So you're gonna have to deliberately construct and you're going to have to rely on use for that and you know if you rely only on things you can buy a license to. You're just introducing all sorts of biases into your training. Data set now of course as we know any of you followed sort of artificial intelligence policy discussions all kinds of other ways. You can introduce bias right but like fair. Use one of the good tools one of the few good tools we have to remedy that in the space more generally again. That hasn't come up yet. Nick as you mentioned like microsoft. Hey or whatever. I think those kinds of i haven't seen any egregious. Examples actually really curious. My first job out of college was as qa guy. And i'm deadly curious. What kind of qa. They did around like race and gender and things like that because an obvious like use cases something like you know co-pilot agenda dropped a gender selector drop down right and that's like a fraught than like that. That's a super complicated. That's one of the things that it turns out his all kinds of fraud right and i have no idea. I haven't seen any bad examples of that. Maybe i just haven't looked hard enough but yet obviously i haven't used it yet. So everything. I've gleaned about it has been just from mostly like tweets and a few articles here and there but one that comes to mind in particular is custody williams from now fi. She does like a livestream. Coding thing every week and at least one week. She did like ebb showing off co-pilot on the stream thing and was specifically trying to make biased about something so you know she was writing comments in spanish i could be miss remembering but maybe like a gender down was like an example of that and overall just like gleaning from her tweets about it. It was overall like pretty positive. It wasn't going to need dark places with that and so like that's probably where a lot of secret sauce comes in to really take the training data and make it into something. That is not only usable. But it's also like ethically bounds. I can't wait one of these days. Somebody's gonna write a guide to regression. Testing your ai. Right that's gonna have whole chapters on like so okay you've progression tested your ai and it basically does what you want. Now let's test it and see how racists it is right because at some level you do like because we can't entirely peer inside the black box. There's going to be right like we have to do. If get up. Didn't screw that up. They must have deliberately had some people poking at it with exactly those kinds of examples cassidy was trying Which does actually get us to one of the interesting. I think one of the things might come out a little bit in. Our conversation is a little bit of frustration. At times around there are really interesting. Legal and policy questions around this. Most of the discussion online was not really about interesting. So much of it was emotional frustrated. Which get right. like i mean i have. I'm a big proponent of copy left like somebody challenged by copy left bona fides on on twitter. And i was like i literally don't think i can fit all the copy left licenses. I've advised on into one tweet and there aren't that many of them so again. Right like there is a do believe in reciprocity as an important part of how we build software but at the same time we've also always like a lot of old school copy. Folks have also been old school fair use folks and so like. This is a little bit of the. I think there was some tension there and some frustration on both sides of that discussion which came through welcomed arguing on the internet. What's up people. This episode is brought to you by century century there s. Sdk for next now next. You can capture airs. Measure performance made releases configure suspect commits and automatically upload source maps. You unmodified java script. Anti script was zero. Ish configuration major events enriched with device data bread crumbs created for outgoing. Hp requests release for tracking crash for users and sessions automatic performance for both the client and the server schaefer linking the show us for details. This release jesper. Listeners knew the century the team playing for free for three months. When you sign up and use the code part-time at a century. Dione use the code party town. Because hey it's part time y'all looping thinking like maybe a step back from this and kind of thinking about this from a software perspective and specifically like a software license perspective. Maybe i miss the overall argument around that but is it considered fair use because it's just training of like potentially like certainly licensed code and not necessarily like running it and if it were doing something to run it with that change the way that it might be perceived so you do two steps in a. If you're trying to figure out like is there some sanctionable copying here right. And so first is was there copying at all right and that kind of thing doesn't come up you don't see that. Come into court very often or at least not in particularly dramatic high-profile way because usually it's pretty easy to just compare this. Compare that pretty much the same right that sort of step. One of urinalysis and here is important to distinguish that there's two possible stages at which copyright infringement could have occurred right. There's did get hub infringe copyright and are people who are using co-pilot infringing the copyright and the answers to those may be different. I tend to think that the answer is in both cases. There's no infringement that's sort of my bottom line but it's important to distinguish between those two because you can see a world right like they're definitely arguments to be made get hub is infringing but the user of co-pilot is not right and so let me get into a little bit why that is right so when you're looking at fair use. I mentioned the sort of transformative concept but before we get to that. There's these four rules can't leave. Maybe i've had a longer morning than i thought i should normally be able to rattle them off but we'll go through them one by one and i will really try to remember the fourth one. By the time i get to it so one is like the nature of the taking right so like are you doing this for like some kind of societally advancing purpose or not rate and this is where things like teachers. Get much more of a flexibility than like. A rival book publisher. Another is the. How much did you copy. And so like it is one thing so this is one of the key ways. In which how get hub is copied. 'em how a co-pilot user might copy is very different because co-pilot undoubtedly at some point in the process copied. The whole thing right and so a court looks differently at digit copy the whole thing versus digital copy one function fragment out of a giant. You know this came up in the oracle google trial because google really apache but we'll say google for simplicity really only copied one type of thing right like they copied. I used to have these numbers around top of my brain. It's a really good sign. That i don't remember them exactly anymore. But like it's basically like ten thousand lines of api names and fina function names. But they didn't copy the other several million lines of the implementation right like that implemented them right carefully re implemented them right and so a court will look at that and say it looks like actually not much of this was copied right but this is where it gets a little complicated right and again. Why does this go to courts to decide these things is. There's a famous case about the biography of gerald ford whose lake our nation's most boring president essentially right except that he pardoned richard nixon right so he wrote a biography and a magazine. Got their hands on like an advance copy of biography and they basically reprinted. The part about him pardoning nixon and the court was like. Let's be honest here. Nobody's buying that book for any reason. Other than to read the part about pardoning nixon because otherwise who cares. It's gerald ford right. So the court said even though only a very small part was taken as a percentage of the book. It's still not a fair use. Because that was really. The core of the value of the book and oracle tried to make a similar argument which was okay. Well yeah you know. You didn't copy ninety five percent of java but you did copy the most valuable part which is the api and so this is where you know. A co-pilot user is going to get. I mean i think they said in in their white paper which i recommend everybody read all again. I'll send you guys a link because it's pretty short and pretty interesting. They say something like in their internal testing something like point one percent of suggestions actually match back to like when they did a sampled thing only like point. One percent of suggestions looked like they were copied from another source right. The other ninety nine point nine percent were original original in the sense of like being created by the by the by the still sort of weird to talk about things being created by an right. So if you're trying to re implement some competitors api i probably wouldn't use co-pilot right because then it's gonna be output is gonna look like you took the heart of this other person's thing right. It's it's probably gonna start audit suggesting code. That looks a lot like their implementation. If it's an open source implementation right so like if you're if there's like a gpl invitation of something and you want to write an mit implementation of it. Like i suspect co-pilot. I haven't seen anybody try this yet. But i suspect co-pilot is going to start doing things that look a lot like the original implementation and then you're gonna have a problem but because one of the tests for fair use is how much of it did you take if like you end up with like a five line fragment out of somebody's gpl code. That's like one hundred thousand lines of you know or like what's lennox currently stays like six seven million lines code right like if you end up like a just gonna laugh that out of court right. They're just gonna say like if somebody comes after you on a gpo claim for you as a user of co-pilot again. That's different from get hub. Right gives get hub did presumably copy. You know the entirety of the colonel right. So we've got the what was the nature of the taking. How much did you take another thing. That courts are gonna look at is the commercial impact of this copying and so like you know again get up like potentially big since they're copying the whole thing and there are big corporate competitor like possibly some big for us a user of co-pilot like you were not like that company was not trying to sell you five lines ago. They weren't trying to license by lines code to you and you weren't looking to buy five lines of code right. You were just gonna write it yourself anyway and so court again is gonna look somewhat skeptically at and this is something we know from google books case right that to say like well you weren't selling snippets search of your book so like you're not in fact if anything and this is a key difference from google book search to co-pilot the court found in that case that actually this is going to help you sell more books right because people are gonna find books there's a limitation on how much gets shown so and there's a buy button right there there's no equivalent to that in You could see. Maybe we'll do something like by the way. It looks like you copied this from lynn. Arnel hit click here to sponsor to get sponsors. Like i might be a little tacky right. But like you could see that as a thing that they do in the future perhaps. So that's sort of the basic analysis rate of leg. How much got taken was a really important stuff that got taken lows a commercial impact. Is it something new and bold indifference. That wasn't gonna happen anyway. And i think looking at all those find a really hard time seeing that a court is going to say that this was not a fair use right because it's so different. The impact is so small. The emotional impact is real right. And i don't want to downplay that like as authors but again the whole point of fair use is sometimes authors are pissed and we ignore that as a policy matter and by the way i should say again this is all in the us e us got different sets rules about this. And i really think one of the interesting things that is under discussed that i would love to see more of his commentary from european union lawyers japanese lawyers like 'cause we don't i don't think we have as good a sense yet of what i would look like in other places of illegal james. I'm getting the idea here. That essentially you put your code on. Get hub number one. There's like a term service that says get hub can use your code right. Yup always put your coat on. Get up right. But that's presumably what they used as a training set right. I think i even saw some suggestion that they also looked at other repositories as well because open. Scans the entire web. So i did see some suggestion. I don't know if it's been confirmed. But i see some suggestion. They would have looked at other other repositories now but at this point the fraction of the world's code that is on get hub is large right so it's probably mostly get speaking. It seems like the license is irrelevant. Right i don't know. I mean i think it's important to say right. I've i've been wearing my lawyer hat. This whole call so far right and there's a whole other ethical like is it legal. I mean like. I said i think the answer is probably pretty clearly yes. It's possible to be legal and still be a great. Excuse me where are we a family friendly podcast here or all right great good. It's not around. Or maybe i am. Yeah you can. You can still be a jerk right. And i certainly think you talked in the white paper that i mentioned earlier that they are implementing. I dunno where this is out. I don't know if it's ruled out or anything but they mentioned that they're going to try to implement some kind of by the way. It looks like this probably is not original. Probably came from this putting aside whether or not. That's legally necessary in terms of like not not being a jerk like hooray get should janabi jerks right. Like they're an eight hundred pound gorilla. And i think maybe in their rollout of this. Maybe one of the things here is. They didn't reckon with the like emotional lake. Now you know the half the day carry. They've been really good. Like i think i'm not microsoft apologists. Like i literally got an open source in part. Because i was convinced that microsoft was evil. Select personally irritated like the bill gates image rehabilitation campaign. Like the guy has all this money to give to charity because he like operated an abusive monopoly. Like that's why he has so much money so it's nice that he gives it away but like let's not forget efforts for right. So i'm not microsoft apologised but like i think it hub in microsoft passer years have mostly done really well by open source and so i think maybe they got a little laurel resting right a little too comfortable here and didn't fully understood like didn't fully think through how much this would really emotionally piss people off even if the lawyers like even if the lawyers gave it a full himself right. I think that that cloud that they build up in open source of the last couple of years probably should help like give them some leeway in this in in figuring this out but definitely you know working to to figure that out figure out where the emotions are coming from and things like that but do you think that maybe like some of this murkiness has just caused by. It's like dealing with the like with code itself. We're as like with the books example code to scan books and to open up in create this product around that this is using code to look at code to suggest code like it's all just one thing it's layers of indirection layers of lake layers on layers and layers and layers. It's murky because we don't really even like this is one of these big sort of meta trends right is it. Copy left has been somewhat in decline more certainly in the java script community right. There's essentially no copy left so there's a sort of like sense of like. Yeah look i mean sometimes call it almost like car exhaust right like putting code on get hub is like this thing. That sort of happens accidentally by way of doing the thing that you actually want to do right and so like i mean. A lot of people aren't even entirely sure like how much copyright really a motivator for in especially in a sassy world like how much is copyright. Even it doesn't have the same kind of motivational role that the copyright at least in the us really assumes right like it's like why even as stuff copyrighted because we're just gonna throw it on get hub under license. By the way we never enforce any way that's actually a different discussion. Maybe a different day about like mit mba's de require people to acknowledge right. They require like yeah. You gotta ship this licensed text and and so if get hub. Violates co-pilot violates the gpl co-pilot also violates mit and bsd. right because there's attribution clauses like the part license and like and we often pretend in the java scrip- world. I should say we there but like sterling. My observation is that we often pretend that like mit nbs. Di basically just public domain right like nobody complies with these notice requirements. Pretty much. and everybody's just sort of agreed that like you know that's fine but that's not what i'm here for anyway right so yeah the end. The law hasn't really like there's both layers of technical interaction and layers of just. Like how much do we actually care about. Copyrighted space right now. Anyway i mean i imagine there's some some people who are looking at this and they're all upset and they're thinking gee there has to be some sort of way for me to create coat and put it out there but you know get home and microsoft. Can't take it and make something like this with and then i'm thinking well that sounds a whole lot like the ethical open source movement that wants to place restrictions on things and so it's kind of like talking about both sides of your mouth because yeah i mean absolute. There's absolutely some sort of like. Oh you can use it however you want not like that that. I like it like that. That makes me cringe right. Because that is not the matthew garrett who's a former episode board member has written really eloquently on this in a long blog post unlike. His vision of software freedom is very much about tearing down the copyright system. Like his view. He thinks that he got into free software. In part the whole idea was more people should have access to more source code and we should have fewer restrictions on how it's used right and gpl was a tool to get to that end but in his blog post he talks about how we should be cheering on something that helps break down some of those barriers. Which again i tend to as a longtime card-carrying ffa member until the recent leadership stuff. You know i mean. I agree right like i think it's actually really interesting. A lot of these copy left licenses have clauses in them the very specifically say this is limited by fair. Use right if there's a fair use and that's sort of redundant right like in some sense like you don't have to write that into the license because it's already part of the wall right so it's sort of like you're sorta it's belts and suspenders. But like it was. Also we put those in. And i say we because literally. I helped put some of those into these licenses. We put those in there because it was a statement that like fair uses important to us as like an ethical concern. Not just a legal concern and so to see some people being like. Oh yeah. I love fair use when i get to fair. Use things but like when you're fair using my stuff like for those on the podcast can't see my facial expressions. There's a lot of hand waving and like grimacing. I'd love if you could share that log post. Url do them so we can provide it to our listeners. Will do yeah. There's been a ton of fun writing about this. I can definitely send a few leading. Former member of the european parliament's From the pirate party Wrote a really good thing about it from you. Perspective because the eu interestingly actually did reform their copyright laws a couple years ago. As i think. I think i can say this without being too. Political congress in the us non-real effective like passing laws right especially when they're like big. Lobbying companies involved which a lot of the tech companies are these days the eu pass a rule that specifically said that machine learning is interestingly. Opt out so you can in the e you write a license. That says you can't use this stuff for machine learning but you have to explicitly say you can't use this stuff for machine learning or we're gonna have robots txtag inside of our get repos now. I bet coming in fact. Actually there's a w3c working group. On exactly that. I forget the link to the working. Group is actually one of the fun things about this for me is learning like because my day job is very much like not machine learning. I have not stayed super in touch with it. There's this project called a lutheran i. I don't know if i'm pronouncing it right. But that's lincoln entire it's like an it's not like a eighty is an open source. Gpt model and they have not just the model. But it is trained. They they by hook or by crook. They got some hours to train it and they built a whole data set which by the way includes a lot open source code and they specifically included open source code before co-pilot specifically included opens code. Because they wanted to open they like they're part of their vision is open source code completion. And so that's out there this. W3c three working group on like robots. Not too steep of for code is out there a lot of cool stuff that i found out about from the sort of mini. Fuhr about this. I'm more optimistic like besides ya. I mentioned there's like the legal thing. There's the sort of are you a jerk thing. There's also this like policy layer of like. Do we really like what a i is doing to centralize power with companies that can scrape a lot of data and have the gp you cycles to like. Do training on that data. And i think one of the another strong reason why we should be strongly in favor of fair use in our community. Is that the weaker we make fair use the more. Aai becomes a game that can be played. Only if you have a strong legal team right like the position that a lot of people are taking around. This would shut down a lutheran by now. They're still this question of. How do you get the cheap cycles because those are not cheap so like maybe the answer is going to be centralized anyway but lake as long as they're store the green shoots of people doing open a I like we should be really really worried about what clamping down on fair use for for training. Might mean for those folks. We should probably wrap it up there but this is fascinating and it just kinda shows that there is a lot more nuance to this than just the the immediate emotional reaction that comes out of seeing a potentially transformative use of ai. Like this and there's a lot to think about. And yeah. I tend to agree with you. I think overall it'll be a very good thing and will be good for software engineers going forward. It's not going to replace us. I don't think yet but it will be Just fascinating to see how this grows and changes and And how we grow and change to adapt to it same time. Oh absolutely right. We used to have t shirts say shut up. Or i'll replace you with very small. Shell script me shut up. Roll replace you with a very expensive. Gp you cycle and leg a plan be potentially so empowering for for programmers not just vs hopefully not in the long term future not just vs code users not just get hub users like hopefully. There's a brave new future access to that as democratize We'll see right. It's going to be an interesting definitely. Not a problem was going away. that's for sure. Part of that. Democratisation should be to release them extension. So i don't know if these vs code to try it out. I was gonna say you max but that's another conversation for another chance. We'll have this battle off line. Louis thank you so much for coming on and talking to us and giving us these amazing insights. Yes thank you very much. Yeah my pleasure. Happy to talk legal career. You guys any time. That's ever this special crossover episode of gs party here on the chain. Thank you so much than it needs. See and christopher hill for being such awesome panelists on ds party also of course hughes. Thanks to louis via for being all that wisdom and later this ship another episode log tomlin career wilkerson from get hub about their transition to coach faces the making of it and a lot of fun things about what they're doing that platform after that we're talking adam jacob about open source business models and a lot of fun stuff from bill software business if you're not subscribe yet now's a good time subscribe at chino. Lauda vam and everywhere listen to podcasts. The galaxy brand move is of course to get the master feet at cheese law dot com slash master special. Thanks to our partners. Linda vastly darkly also things too great master cylinder for making all awesome beats. That's it for this episode. We'll see next time.

google oracle microsoft Leonard fastly Yohannes landgraf co tinian pacific j s party chris aka louis louis zimmerman nat friedman sea bass lake twitter congress foale richard stolman youtube hiller
375: Hiding in Your Roomba

Embedded

54:47 min | 3 months ago

375: Hiding in Your Roomba

"Welcome to embed. I am here with christopher wait. Our guest is britney pus knockoff. also noticed strength. we'll be talking about robots social engineering and other things australia. Hi could you tell us about yourself. As though we saw you on a panel about robots sure So right now. I am a researcher and community manager for great scott gadgets and otherwise i am a troublemaker. I primarily just look at how things can be changed broken and Adjusted using robots specifically a the emotional side of robots do robots have emotions dot is a very big philosophical question. And it depends on who you are and what your perceptions of emotions are But i'm inclined to be somewhere in the middle while we're going to ask more about that and other things but i do wanna light and you know where we'll ask you questions. We want short answers and we'll try not to ask for more details but here if you were to make sonian cyber deck. What would you put it. I keep thinking food. Should we bring back the dinosaurs. Yes preferred listening one programming electricity. John i've never heard of. I'm going to go look it up. Later are fake tattoos. Sticker. yes googly. Eyes are puffy animal stickers. Google is if you could be a sticker or sticker. Would you be holographic oh i graphics due to complete one project or start a dozen started dozen could teach a college course just one. What would you want to teach ethics. What is your favorite fictional. robot bender tip. Everyone should know turner close inside out before washing them. But i hate that. Because then i have to turn them outside in after drying them and so much work for me much work it pills less and it looks better longer. So we've touched on stickers and robots and emotions which when you wanna talk about first star stickers okay. So you're into stickers. What does that mean. You have a twitch stream where you talk about stickers. I don't understand. So stickers are a big part of hacker culture and you know. I love seeing the stickers on the back of people's laptops or on the other devices they carry. And i had this question about like what is a sticker mean. What is that sticker in. And after talking to people. You realize that stickers have so much history and story behind them That kinda gets lost if you don't archive it somewhere. So i've been working on this idea of like a sticker archive For the stories about stickers so we don't lose that information as people leave the community or move on or other things that duck genius so this is like there are many different hakodate stickers and some are older than others and some could only get it. Certain conferences is it. Is it that sort of information or is it. The emotional attachment people get to their stickers. You know both I think all stories are worth writing down or collecting or having on a stream and sharing and for me. It's just this idea that you know it's a big part of our culture as people in tech and it's nice to collect culture somewhere So some the stories are just like you know. I saw the sticker. I wanted to be friends with someone because of the sticker and now we are or sometimes you get you know the stories behind the this is not a camera sticker and you wanna like wide. Somebody make that and you get here. That story that led up to somebody Doing that creative design. And i think both are really exciting just to you know. Learn the thoughts that people are having around these cultural symbols. Okay so you probably somebody who knows the answer this question. I've had when i started in tech. It was when friends was on television and the early seasons had laptops and stuff their garbage compared to now. But i remember having stickers. I would've put stickers oliver everything but i don't remember doing that and i don't really have a good sense of that kind of started. I remember when i started putting stickers my laptop but it was only like ten or fifteen years ago maybe. Do you have a notion of where this got started. No but now. I'm gonna go and research report back i will. This is great. Thanks so we recently re aired a show with sarah peckish who then did our logo and stickers and one of the things that i like best about our stickers is that some people see it as it radiohead or some people see it as a radio old radio and other people see it as a robot head and i love the ambiguity. Are there things you look for that. Make for good stickers. There's a few things. Like color design the quality of stickers like i have some stickers put through the dishwasher and they're fine there's some stickers you leave on a laptop per week in their gone so the longevity is important to me and i also Try and make sure. Messages are positive. Like i have a whole stack of stickers that i will not interview people on that will never put on my laptop just because they contain messages. I'm not comfortable with so you know just being positive having that good design and also using ethical creators as well so there's some sticker companies that again won't use in their other ones that you know. Put a lot back into the company so there are a number of things that look for. What are some the you will use. Because i think i'm ready to switch sticker manufacturers. I've heard great things about sticker ninja. And i've heard great things about those things. Stickered giant is another one But right now there's so many people looking for a better place to go. And i have to try out more myself still understand. I'm looking at christie's Laptop keep to turn it around. But it's being used to record this podcast and that would be dangerous. And i know that. Ben kraus's now's wrench in a beaker for his his youtube. What is the name of that yet. His youtube channel is an nimmo of applied applied. Science and matt godbolt compiler explorer are both logos that have no words on them and i. I wouldn't be able to tell what they were without knowing do you. What's your opinion on that kind of sticker. The the you have to be in the know to recognize it. Those are personally my favorite stickers Because i don't put stickers on my laptops that have words Because i think it's more about just the the picture for me And also it's a great conversation starter like if you don't know what a sticker is going up to someone asking. Hey what's that sticker is a great way to make new friends and one of my favorite things about s- about cigarette culture. How did you get into it. i mean was it one of these conversations where you went up to someone and said puts the sticker that all the time because i'm just very curious But i think a big part of it for me was just You know my first defcon. I saw these stickers and like wow there's so much color and vibrancy to this community and amina of course the led's helped but the stickers for a good introduction and people like here. take my sticker. Mike you're just going to give me sticker at at this time. I was a student like anything. Free made may happy of course him to throw stickers journals and stuff and people like no you have to put it on your laptop and then all of a sudden like big choice in. I was like well now. I just need to collect all of the stickers need multiples of all the stickers quote. So i can stick them on things and be and be happy and so now. I have a huge sticker collection. And of course us some of them but some of them i have just as an archive. And it just has kept going from there again other people's stickers to send out when i send out our stickers 'cause i don't want stickers to be lonely that's normal right absolutely normal he i have so many friends would love to spend time with. If that's your mentality around stickers. Put him in my laptop but my toolbox is covered in stickers sticker on your laptop. There's one there's one embedded sticker on my laptop. I don't think that counts. That's more of a. Here's our company property. Take as a crossover between the sticker kind of ethos and the badge thing very much at there are a lot of people in both communities that share art work back and forth And for me. Stickers is kinda step one before start getting into badges because So many of the cool conference badges have great. Pcb's that have fun designs and Some of that uses same skills as creating stickers so it's kind of like a natural progression to me to come back to robots. Tell me more about robot. Social engineering i mean. It's not really about tricking. The robots to give you information like human social engineering. Is it so one aspect of it is. But for my master's thesis it was more about using robots associate engineer people. Okay i mean if a robot asks me for my password and might give it to him because it's a robot doesn't care what it's can imagine being in a situation where i unwisely trusted a robot because it wasn't a person fine robot like is to coming up to you and beeping. Give me your passer already. Yes he appears in my head. No no it was definitely are just like you know something on your computer where a fake robot comes up now. Those are clearly people okay. I love this. This is likely a why did this. Research is You know there are so many definitions robot. And when i talk about robots social engineering is specifically mean robots that are enough body And are able to like intact physically with their environment. Move around in that environment And still have some form of artificial intelligence so the things that pop up on. Tv screen would not be a a robot to me So it's kind of interesting about how everyone has different definitions. We gave our roomba the password to our internet a role. Yes but it didn't ask past the robot to provide self not ask who's the proxy same kind of thing all kinds of social engineering can the robots do other than get our wifi password so there are some things where how do i describe this The robot social engineering has a number of parts. There's you know depending on the level of artificial intelligence of the robot so some things like roomba would probably just be a proxy for a human social engineer. That has gone into your robot. And hughes's the emotional connection you have with your robot to make you do things. So for example Can some room buzz. People actually remodel their entire house. So it's more accessible for the roomba and people get these emotional attachments for the name them where they have particular googly eyes are robots. And we've named it. So you're you're you're freight in the perfect market but there are things were you know those robots start getting used to them and get them moving around your hells without any interaction necessarily like especially if you put it on a schedule And you get used to the noises kinda like when you get a pet you get used you at first or like. What's that noise when they're moving around. While you get used to the noises now say that somebody Is able to rtp into your roomba and all of a sudden. Start looking around your house. Kazaa cameras on bruno's there is light are on some of the room buzz. Like there's so many different features that can collect so many different types of data and say these robots go throughout your house and you have before the ones with a camera. All of a sudden a person can use the social comfort. You have with your roomba to go round your home and case your entire house like see everything that's in it. Where is an also see or hear whether your home and so all of a sudden sieg on vacation for a week. Somebody's been hiding out your roomba for month already peeing watching and they notice you're gone for three days in a row which is really weird. You well they know that is the perfect time to come in and review and where everything is where the alarm systems are. They might have seen you arm number. Disarm them through the roomba camera like they're all sorts of Privacy and security considerations with the technology letting your home the definitely are Lately are amazon echos have been irritating me with not only their insistence offering me things. I don't want but also yamazaki new programs to make mesh networks and share your network and do things. I didn't ask to do do you. Think of those as robots. I mean because that does have a social engineering at as they don't move though i don't because they don't move to me there just machine or they're an artificial agent off. I tape it to the nba. Sorry sorry why does why does its ability to move. Make it more interesting to you. Because all of a sudden you have a walking talking vulnerability. It's not just you know thing on your table that you talk to you. And that physicality is a big component of how we socialize with other people with animals and in this case robots. It's the physicality that really makes us unique piece of research compared to seeing hell. Artificial intelligence online affects people. That is a different area. That doesn't consider physicality highly explored. But that doesn't apply to when you have a robot in front of you in a body. It's a different scenario. You interact with the differently and there is research on how different those two things are. And so i was like well. I wanna look at this specifically and so that's why i define robots so narrowly is because the physicality is really cool. Does that does it. Plug into something. Deepen our brains that says this is alive which is a difference from say. The echo tube is just a monolith so humans used things like anthropomorphic them to Connect with the different things in their environment. As if they were humans or other humanoids. And we have zoll morphism which is when people treat things in their environment like animals and robots can benefit from one the other or both at the same time on depending on how you interact them. And i think that's really special in cool. Do we trust them more. Because we don't trust people that much. But i think i might trust a robot more yeah. We don't go wifi password. Very many people finish your question. I'm sorry it was more like is it. Is it the fact that we do this. Zoo morphism and enter morphism that causes us to be more susceptible to social engineering attacks or is it just that we are so stupidly a. Susceptible to social chain attacks. This is just one more path both and some of it has to do with context as well like if you have a robot coming up to you in a hospital. 'cause there are some hospitals that have these robots. That will come into your medication to you. Well it's a machine in an authoritative role in firemen where most people don't feel. They have much thority. So for robot comes in with a cup of pills and says take this like you might be more inclined to trust it even though we again have the issue of you don't know who's program those pills if they're the correct pills if your pills guts. Which was someone else like. There are trust things to think about but because of the context End authority the robot holds. Some people might be more inclined to trust them. I remember talking to professor. I ianna a howard about this That even if the robot lead you in a psychic experiment to the incorrect room and so you knew that it was fallible. When there was a fake fire alarm you still followed the row by even if you kind of knew how. Get out of the building. What's wrong with us as a species. That is one of my favorite papers. And i did site that one in my thesis because it was just like blew my mind that people could see an exit sign. Clearly pointing just go left but the robot was pointing rights. They went right and like lake. There's so much think about their and again. It's context where people freeze when there is a fire. There's panic and just like when you burn public we see someone getting hurt and that you know maybe somebody should call the cops or should Intervene or help out. No one does And there's a bunch of papers on this that no one wants to be the first to step up so he robuck coming in in this case and being like. Hey follow me to safety like okay. I don't have to think about it. Somebody else will think about a great. Tell me what to do And so i think that's again part of the Robots slipping into authority authoritative position at and taking the pressure. off of. You kind of gives you more of an inclination to trust it. It's interesting because a lot of science fiction has the theme of don't trust the robots in alien the alien series and whatever there's plenty of examples where the robot turns out to be an enemy for some reason. Then you shouldn't trust it. And i feel like that should have subsumed into our culture over the last fifty years but it doesn't seem like more of a reflection of our our desire to trust them rather than a reflection of our distrust. Well yeah and we have for almost every bad robot there is. There's good robot like c. Three po or r. Two d. two or my case like bender is an exactly moral. But i would love him as a best friend so you. That's the thing is we always match kind of the good with the bad and it comes down to you know. Robots are as varied as humans. They come in so many shapes so many different types different thought processes different skills. And you know when we make a decision on a particular robot comes down to again. Context environment What the robot does why we think it does. It does an all sorts of these complex variables that go into one value of trust with respect to your example about people being hesitant to intervene in emergencies. There is also research to show that if you have any training at all if you if people are trained to be responders not even formally trained but even the community. Emergency response teams Where it's a low level of training. They do tend to step up. Do we need to train people to be like no. Don't follow the robot or how do we. How do we get out of this. Because i don't really wanna lose the person ability of my my room by. I like google's yeah. I'm happy to hear that gives me a lot of joy And i think a lot of what we need to do is just be aware be aware that a robot could be collecting information on you and a lot of information that you don't necessarily know Like a lot of the manuals on robots. Don't actually give you all the details. About what robot is doing. Or what is collecting or where it's information goes or how it's information is stored so it's kind of exhausting but having the awareness and vigilance to think about robots in depth when you interact with them is what we need to do And yet training could help with that. I'm hoping that as a write more papers get more talks. A kind of gives people that low level of training But yet it's a really hard problem to defend against robots social engineering As it is to defend against regular social engineering right more papers You have master's degree But you are starting to phd this fall. Yeah i'm actually switching from cis to electrical and computer engineering where i will be doing a phd. With a bunch of other great robotics people and one of them actually started working on robots social engineering. This same time did but they were living in italy So we will actually be in the same place at the same time researching the same thing. So i am burgle excited about the research. That's going to come out of our lab and is it. Is it going to be on robotic social engineering robot. As whole or do you have a an area of concentration. Yeah i've been really inspired by whitney merrill to focus a lot more on privacy and so i've always had this question in my head of like water are people's public perceptions of robots in public spaces and i have a story on that actually So my partner. And i were in an airport and we saw a robot around and i was like take my bags trek us in. I must go and look at this robot. And so i grabbed my phone start recording because i never seen this robot before and it had the airport symbol on the side of it. And you could scan your boarding pass and we'll tell you where to go and where to check in or where stores were or you could search for restaurants or it would turn its head around and take a selfie for you and email. you selfie. And i'm like wait. That robot is collecting a ton of information and unlike and the only reason people are trusting it is because it has a sticker on the side of it. And so i can just like i wanna see if i could just drop a robot somewhere throw a sticker on it and see if people give their information you know so This is a lot of what i want to look at in my. Phd is how little context to we need to give On the robot for people to give it high levels of trust. Are you going to put stickers at people recognize things that just look like something that his trustworthy googly eyes. I'm telling you the lowest bar While i'm thinking things like you know i'll be at the university of waterloo. So can i throw university of waterloo stickers on a robot have wander around and ask people enter sweepstakes and get their personal information. Or you know if i could drop it at a restaurant. And how long would it take for the restaurant to kick my robot out you know. Creating a robot is expensive still and likely to remain expensive for a while so this level of interaction usually is related to accompany. I robot The airport places that have that are big enough Even boston dynamics the they have funding. And so if the robot is wandering around doing various things with people's data you can make a fuss. I guess if anybody makes a fuss but yeah if you know that it's collecting the data at if you know. There's something to make a fuss about. And i think people don't know that there they should be making fuss about some of these robots Like there're i will absolutely walk the other direction if i ever come into contact with them like Like the knights scope robot personally with their security robot dialects. They do oh my gosh do they ever. I mean is it just because it has a bunch of cameras. Does it have a laser does it. Why are these bad. Does it have googly. Eyes no I'm kind of happy. These funds don't have googly eyes. Because i think it's bad personify these ones because i don't think they're good for the public But if you go through their documentation you can see that. They have thermal imaging that they have licensed plate cameras that they collect the mac addresses of any devices near them. That they have I mean they have wireless access points on them. That collect whatever access points your devices are trying to connect to certain knows what Networks you usually try to connect to. They have cameras. They have audio and they're collecting all of this data and even if a company is the one that has set this out in their parking lot. You don't have noticed that it's collecting all this data and know where it's going and Based on the documentation. I've read it. Looks like even if you think it's just going to the company all the data's tonight's scope as well so all of a sudden you have to companies using data A night scope has done things like partnered with various law enforcement agencies. That people don't really respect and that Make a lot of people's lives worse and It makes me uncomfortable to think that you know these robots are you know breaking apart families and things like that and wow i mean there's there's so much here elevated body temperature that is not something i want people to be able to to know because that indicates that i'm stressed although on the other hand part of me is like oh yeah you put that in an airport and made has a fever. Maybe we don't spread disease quite as fast but the balance there is just impossible and these robots. I can if there isn't already a cell tower in them. In order to collect the base sell data. there will be in about a month. It's just these are the robots. I didn't realize that. I spend so much time thinking about the good robots that i don't really think about these other kinds because they don't see them very often And they're mostly used in larger cities and airports more as time goes on or do you think that there has already been some backlash and there will be continued. There will continue to be right. Now of the opinion that yes we are getting more and more robots in public especially over the pandemic. There is kind of an explosion of robot use like you know people putting robots in public spaces to take. Your temperature was a thing. We saw a lot of over the last few months Also robots that would be in public spaces Asking people to step apart if you're too close Like there are some public parks. I think in korea used these robots to say you're sending too close together please separate but the thing is the is. The robot couldn't tell whether you were living together or not and whether it was okay for you to be walking together so is making these crew judgments on what should be allowed in public without. Actually knowing the context of the situation are finding out more but because it was you know big robot the spot robot and they are clunky. They are big. They seem like they have authority again. They hap- they were given vests in stickers that make them made People know that they were part of the park. And so all of a sudden these robots have authority to tell people living together that she chaired germs. Anyway to separate Which seems excessive in incorrect. Like we're sliding down some sort of bad path. So they they're around. And i think they'll continue to be around especially as big corporations that have money continue to push the robots without thinking about the privacy and security and without the average person Raising their voice against the context in which robots are used. It sounds like a lot of things are being delegated to them that should not be delegated to them because they're idiots. I mean they're not they're not is but they say artificial intelligence on the side to some of them. Yeah actually they really do. That's ridiculous but okay. But yeah. I mean they're they're they're you know they're they're terroristic things that just go out there and say okay. Here's here's a bunch of people tells them to separate that's all it knows so it's kind of yeah i mean delegating decisions to about seems very fraught and yet which is a place where security is primarily is one of the big areas where you want human judgement but if we could make ethical. Aai more of a thing than maybe the robots would be more fair than humans who have biases is will always have biases though because they're made by people but if we if we start working on that piece which is a totally separate peace that we need. Our is to go through some path of certification towards Equity and. I think we will get there eventually eventually but there are benefits to having someone who is less likely to be cranky hungry to do some of the enforcement of traffic parking enforcement. Yeah yeah. I don't know. I like having a human who could be responsible for misdeeds and there are also sometimes like humans. Let things slide like. I could give this person a parking ticket. But and it's those counter Positive scenarios like opposite from those cranky scenarios that are also human. But if you have a robot it's never gonna let someone slide like if it's if you're minute late getting back to your car and it's normally not when a the parking meter. People combine like he usually slide by minute but rope. Robots is hold up the rules because that's all they can do and they don't know how to let things slide for positive reasons. And i think that's a show for humanity as well in a show show of compassion and something. We don't wanna lose by delegating things. I'm i'm still on the fence about that. But i am willing to to to go either way so As chris said one of these looks like a dollar another one of these looks like the the kind of cool robot i think from interstellar the square ones. Yeah but as you said. Stray they're intimidating. There they look authoritative and they are intimidating. It seems like if you really wanted people to be more interactive you would put a fluffy bunny sticker on it instead of making scary And that's a big part of robots social engineering. Do you think that they look scary because they wanted them to scary or that. They look scary because nobody realized that they would be friendlier if you made them look friendlier. Hundred percent both I think the nightscopes scope robots to look scary And it does look exactly like a dog. And i've seen pictures of people taping a plunger in a whisks so so they are definitely meant to look scary but a number of other robots being like. I think this looks cool. And then they make it and people are scared of it or don't understand why people are unhappy with it like why's my robot failing like because it looks like it's gonna cut my knees off So it's a little Difficult and that's one thing that a lotta robot designers could do better is hiring. Human robot interaction specialists who've done research into the shape outfits heights and all sorts of other interaction variables That could help them design the robots better but so far. That's not a common thing. I mean of the first bullet points on. Your robot is force multiplying physical deterrents. I don't think the goal to make something that looks fun. I mean it's going to be a pretty interesting research project. Do you think you'll be able to get one of these scariest robots and see just how friendly you have to make it before people will interact so there are things like i probably throw an apron on it like a further apron with some flowers on it and all of a sudden it would look more. Maybe like rosie from the jetsons apps. And so these these things like outfits that can make things a lot easier or Colors like stop choosing scary colors and may be used more yellows or purples were to By ad that's not necessarily my a specific area research at. I would love to talk more with people who do really focus on that in depth. Don't put an offer on robots. I was thinking that if you put a pink. Leather collar on one of the boston dynamics terrors. It would be pretty cool. People would be like okay. It's another set of company. It's like are they doing this on purpose because these look like hell hounds And so you wanna see more about people interacting with robots and try to figure out a how kind how nice how personable you need it to look before people begin to fall for social engineering is at right. No my focus is going to be on Whether people understand what sensors inabilities robots have how those sensors abilities can be used to collect data and where their privacy insecurity might come risk. And i want to demonstrate that through using robots to social engineer. People do you think that robots that interact with us take more dated than just walking through with a cell phone. that isn't well protected. yes no Has they're not a higher percent certain on this but like you could always say someone else had my cell phone that day but if a robot is there in it's also got video and audio of you. You're a little bit more in trouble or if it has your body temperature or other things like that. They're just so many other pieces of data that may be. Your phone is in collecting that robots are definitely collecting own people. At least theoretically are in some control of their cell phone you could leave it at home. You could turn it off. You can adjust the privacy settings and the location tracking settings night box you could throw in the ocean but robot is not under your control. It's environment that you happen to want her into and going to collect stuff passable the same issue with facial tracking right then and things like that where you don't get to opt out even if it's hard opt out those with cellphone sometimes there's no option to opt out with something that's just ambien. Leeann the environment. Yes especially when it's walking and moving at could follow you like if you go around a corner to not be in its cameras and it follows you because of that suspicious that adds a lot of stress to your interactions and walking around and just existing is like if you try to get away from a robot and it will leave you alone plague. How uncomfortable okay. So it's really about the robots being able to you gather data about us that we don't want as opposed to the robots that we find attractive. That's not the right word. But i'm going to go with it. Attractive enough to engage in a social manner in which we give up our data purposefully or get tricked into. Yeah like private. Privacy is just you know being able to control who you give your data to when and why and so like we said like with a cell phone control that but with these robots especially in public spaces they are someone else's property and You know there is questions About laws like if you put a sticker on a robot to take away some of its abilities like what laws are you breaking So even if you try and do small fixes to increase your own privacy and increase the privacy of others. What laws are you breaking. i. I have removable vinyl and i could imagine using that to disabled cameras but that even if it's not permanent. Is that some sort of misdemeanor. Because amb disabling their ability to track me but i never agreed to be tracked so why there are some pretty gnarly legal aspects. Here aren't there so you're not starting your phd program into fall But you are working now at great scott catches yet. That's correct believe. We talked to kate. Timken from there about usb Things earlier in the year or possibly last year possibly a decade ago. I don't remember What team do there. I am the community manager. So i have the fun job of dealing with all of the get hub. Tickets interacting Being first point of contact for anyone who wants to Talk to great scott gadgets or get customer support help I also will eventually help run events when we're out of the pandemic and give talks and you know focus on giveaways and also be making swag including stickers. What are you gonna do with your stickers. What what are the things that you find most important that you're like okay on a sticker. I do. it's going to have these thanks. Well it's so it's a little bit different for things that create my own time versus things i would make a company But you know. I really love lot of the great scott gadgets. Ethos which is making everything as transparent and open as possible. Even the tagline for company for the company is making tools for innovative people. And i i love how you freely the company shares knowledge and One of my favorite things is looking at the different layouts for all the different pieces of hardware. I really wanna make some stickers and t shirts and stuff that really like that hardware since you know. It's open it's available but i think Throwing that on a black t. Shirt looks really cool as part of being community manager. You you do get heb issues. Do you also work with software. Engineers who are contributing to the open source. Parts of great scott gadgets. Yeah absolutely so. I help review paul requests. I try to ask questions to make. Sure we're talking about the same thing and a lot of the get hub issues up turning into you know. Maybe you could try and fix this and people submitting their i pull request so I definitely love when people open issues. And paul requests because it gives me another opportunity to interact with End support people and see new ways to use the things that we've already made getting people to do open source. It's still hard. How do you get them to engage. One of the things that i've been trying to do in the company is respond to issues quicker Tried to put a service level agreement. In that i'm gonna respond quick So people know that we care and that We wanna hear their feedback. We want to hear what they're having issues with so we can make everything better So i would count issues as contributing to source because it does affect How we think about what we're making products wanna make it in the future So you know when people think about contributing to open source they normally think of only contributing code but you know contributing documentation writing down the issues Joining the discord and like interacting with us. And telling us what you want is always to contribute to open source. And i really want people to focus on some other things other than contributing just software because there are so many ways to be involved. Seems like there's a real mix in the quality of various open source projects. In how welcoming they are what do you think are some of the keys to getting people to feel comfortable submitting first. Pr or her an issue or something without fearing that they're gonna be yelled at or or made fun of because that happens sometimes. Yeah definitely been in that scenario and It's what turned me off of open source for so long as you know people just being outright rude or saying like this is too simple of an issue to contribute. Were not gonna murdered someone else's stuff when we can do this in a line like was just antagonistic and rude But with great sky gadgets the fact that the company constantly went to conferences that i saw everyone Constantly all the world at all these places and that they were giving back through talks through giving away hardware through making sure everything was open source and released toting that And you know having a tons of videos and write ups and stuff out there for people to learn from it. It was obvious that was more than just a pet project. It was kind of like a labor of love and so that's one of the reasons i joined. the company was just how positive All of these things were and so You know that's something. I look for when i Try to contribute to open source. Now is how much of the giving back to the community and accepting the community. I was talking to a person who wanted to contribute to an open source project. A big one not lennox but a big fun And didn't understand why no one would help set up the computer in the right way and i was like okay. They have a getting started guide. I don't understand what your problem is. And the problem was that it took a long time to compile and they wanted help understanding how to get faster compiles and i tried to explain. They have a lot of people who want to do a small change who wants to do a small change none of people who actually do a poll requests but to many people to help every single one. Just get set up. Do you see that problem is. I'm not sure. I handled it well. other than trying to explain from the other side. Is there some way to say yes. We really want you to contribute. But could you please not waste our time. Dot is something are honestly. I've been struggling with now. I am you know. First point of contact for the us. Is that before me. There wasn't anyone dedicated to this was know software engineers who had a bit of a spare time or you know other things like that but it slows down the open source project every time We need to help someone. And so you know i'm really happy. That great scott gadgets grew enough that they were able to pay higher me Because the company's doing well enough So now i can go in and do that. But not every open source company can afford to hire someone and so Another way to contribute to open source and help other people is to be part of the community and wash projects that you like for how they do. Try to solve issues and try to help other people And so right now. I'm doing that by looking at old issues. And how they were solved seeing new issues matchup and be like okay. Well we've tried these sort of solutions in the past on these issues. Let's try that again over here and Using those Issues and going back and forth this way people can contribute to open source. Help other people free up open source developers time to do other things. So it's it's definitely hard and every time somebody asks in issue is taking up time But hopefully you know contributing to projects either with money or buying the products related to Can help open source companies. Hire more people that can do this type of work. I guess probably because of being around with the dinosaurs. I still don't understand how open source companies can make money. Do you have any insight into that. Yeah so one of the things with great. Scott gadgets is that we do Products like the hacker f or the uber tubes or soon will be coming out with luna which is something that kate temp kinsman putting lot of time into and hardware that really supports the company And so anytime anyone buys one of the actual great scott gadgets pieces of hardware. It is funding things like creating new hardware or meek helping with these poor requests or get hub issue And so that's the number one way people can support us and we hope that our hardware is What people buy instead of the knockoffs because Of the customer support we provide and some the guarantees that our Resellers provide as well. And so you know it's part of that ecosystem and giving back to the community and if people wanna give back to our company buyer hardware. It's really hopeful on this luna board looking at it it's a does protocol analysis for usb. it it works on creating your own usb device. It has an f. Pga to help all of this. I wouldn't want to create that board. I mean if i if i wanted to use that word i would not. I want to build it. I would just want to use it. So i understand why people would buy the hardware instead of making it and then that pays partially for the software as well as the hardware cool i can. Yeah and hopefully another part of job since they've come onto the company is Creating interesting types of swag which hopefully You know we will give some away at conferences. But maybe some people might be interested in buying so Hopefully i will get all of that up and running soon and People have an option to support us by buying cool things. that aren't just hardware. Well as long as you're going to say that. I should point out that we have new swag new merch in our store. I did this talk with the the map. File the talks about map files and now you can get you can get somebody actually printed a poster and sent me a picture of it on their wall and somebody asked for mouse pads and sarwan ahead made bows pads in new mugs and be wanting to buy. The stuff is really weird. I thought you had to give this away. Didn't realize people would buy it. It's a great opportunity to you know. Support the things you love. Yeah it is Even if you know you're not trying to make a lot of money off of it. It's also away as you said with stickers. Somebody will come in and say what's that and if you've got a neat magdeburg and embedded sticker or poster. I can totally see. It can't go well i think. I think it's about time to get back to our weekend. Do you have any thoughts. You'd like to leave us with on the topic of open source contribute. I've been doing so much for the great scott gadgets repositories and with love to see people open more issue's open more poll requests or even reach out to me. If you wanna talk to me about anything. A great scott gadgets. I am always here and happy to hear from new people against has been strength. Britney posner gov you can find her at strength dot com that is s. t. r. a. T. h. e. dot com. And of course they'll be at lincoln this show notes. Thanks thank you. Thank you to christopher for using and co hosting and thank you for listening you can always contact us at show at embedded. Fm hit the contact link on embedded fm. And now a quote to leave you with. This is from william gibson time in one direction memory another. We're that strange species that constructs artifacts intended to counter the natural flow of forgetting.

sarah peckish Ben kraus matt godbolt university of waterloo youtube whitney merrill scott gadgets nimmo scott amina yamazaki Google roomba britney Kazaa turner christie christopher Pcb oliver
Bob Lazar, UFOs and Aliens!

That’s Strange

1:10:36 hr | 1 year ago

Bob Lazar, UFOs and Aliens!

"That strange where we dive deep into the Internet uncovering anything we think is weird strange controversial or makes you think On your host Alex alongside Chad and Ryan. Take the dive with us down a rabbit hole of secret government projects, hidden research facilities, alien technology, and the man shed light on. Baba's czar is blowing the whistle on mysteries inside of a top secret research facility in Alien Technology House there come with us as we unpack his story but be warned. You may not be the same after listening. In May of Nineteen, eighty-nine and interview with investigative reporter George knapp appeared on Las Vegas, News Channel K. L. A. S. a shadowy figure under the alias of dentists explained exactly what was a secret facility south of Groom Lake in the Nevada desert. Nine flying saucers of extraterrestrial or are being stored, analyzed, and Tesla. The subject explains that he was tasked with reverse engineering, the propulsion systems of the crash and did not know how the government had gotten hold of these crafts. The shadowy figure was eventually revealed to be Bob Lazar in a subsequent interview where he revealed his identity. Bob Lazar who has a bachelor's degree in physics and electronic technology from PACIFICA UNIVERSITY? And he continued his Masters at, MIT? He's a very, very, very interesting figure. Did you know before we started this researching into this? Did you know about him? I did I watched the Netflix documentary, just a super interesting individual and I ended up going back in like watching his interview with Koa, and and seem like how all that played out in the incredible. Reach that it had after the fact you know it was translated into multiple languages played over the entire world and people were gripped by by this man's story in what he had to say because he he seems so credible. It's seems like everything he's saying really has weight in is truthful. The fact that he started this with not really seeking the the attention or seeking the ACCOLADE. But actually just seeking to get the information out there even hiding his identity. That some might say that that would be the the behavior of someone trying to hide something but I see it as behavior of someone who is trying to protect themselves because they're saying something that that may actually be factual dude I bet he is phone calls every single day people trying to get a hold of this guy people trying to email him and all kinds of stuff and back when this verse. Back when this first came out, I mean think about that the technology and the communication that they had. Then you know people people today are used to getting like notifications every single day. But think about how he felt getting all these phone calls when I mean he's just a regular guy he he was picked up because he has a Kuwanda and now he's this huge figure even thirty years ago I mean. It's just insane. Yeah I mean he said he used to have people camping on his lawn and stuff and you you gotta remember that within the Ufo community. There are a lot of people that are. I really know how to say it. A lot of people that are a little strange. So for those people to becoming to Bob Lazar and it's got to be slightly terrifying and you'll see as we kind of dive into his story that. I find him very credible I find everything that he says very, very credible in a lot of the stuff that he has said in the past. eventually comes true. So. Basically he gets. His degrees from MIT. and. Pacific at University. He starts working at a Los Alamos. Research. Lab and I believe Los Alamos. And working on physics and nuclear weapon research, which is what what the lab does. Obviously. And then during his employment there Alex, you kind of set it he builds a jet powered. Honda, it's. Kind of extravagant thing that he drives to work every day. It's literally a jet on a Honda Civic. Nazi looks like something out of the future and he built this thing I mean he built us thing in eighty nine. I think it might have eighty nine was one he actually worked. As for so yeah, it was it was probably around eighty four. I think So that gets the attention of the Los Alamos. Local newspaper who put him on the front cover. With his jet cars, jet Honda that he built. And that. That's a little bit important to the story later on. So kind of put a pin in that. So he's working at Los Alamos. And he says that he leaves Los Alamos and goes off to start other businesses that that turn out to fail. Now, he never really goes into detail or at least I couldn't find. What those other businesses were, but he a couple years later wants to get back into the science community. So. At Los Alamos Edward Taylor who's known as the father of the hydrogen bomb is giving a lecture at the lab. Lazar once where Lazar worked cracked. Yes. And Lazar obviously with a with a major passion for science wants to see this guy talk because he's a, he's a huge scientific figure. So he goes goes to the. To the lecture and actually encounters him outside of the lecture. Prior to Prior. To. Edward Teller going live and doing the actual lecture and he's reading the newspaper. that. Has Bob Lazar on the front page and he's which is wild when you really yeah what are the odds and and he's like? He's this guy is probably a celebrity to him. You know he's a celebrity in the science community so to to Bob he's like he's reading my news article I gotta go introduce myself. So he goes introduces himself they Chit Chat for a little bit and that's really end of it. He goes to his lecture. And If you fast forward a couple years after that. Bottles are start sending out resumes in an attempt to get back into the science community, and one of these resumes goes out to Edward Teller and references this meeting. References on the guy that you talk to. The had the jet powered car and Edward Teller remembered him and gave him a contact to e g and G, which is a national defense contractor. He gave not only that he gave him a great reference, right? I mean you got this big big name guy that that he sees Bob Lazar. In a frigging newspaper and. It's kind of one of those things that you're like due to every single star was aligned that day you know right and absolute in for for Bob. Lazar, crazy in an innocent stuff like that happens all the time that leads to. This kind of stuff. So it's not that it's not unbelievable that all this stuff happened right? So He sends out his resume to G and G. And this is the company. National Defense contractor that hire scientists for area fifty, one s four, and that is how bob gets the job at us for he starts at facility in December of nineteen eighty eight and this is pretty much where. His entire life changes Lazaro begun work at a test facility in the Nevada desert under the pretense that he would be working on advanced propulsion. He had no idea how advanced the technology would turn out to be after a mountain of paperwork and security clearances. He began his job at the remote facilities south of groom. Lake when he learned what he would be working on Lazar was thrilled as we all would be it wasn't every day that someone got to work on technology not even from this planet Lazaro along with the other scientists they I mean they had a really strange schedule. You've got. Sometimes, they're being called in as late as eleven and being told to be apart to be at the airport at a specific time. So it's it's a lot of back and forth it's a lot of them having to kind of change things on the fly and then. When they were at the airport, their flight would then take them from Las Vegas into area fifty one and obviously everybody knows area fifty one, it became a cultural icon in terms of a of a an actual location. And still is so yeah, it's it's. It's definitely been something that a lot of people have had interest in because it's a secret government facility. I mean, it's Kinda inherently. You want to know what's going on in there. I mean it's like that. They had that raid and and all. That was forever ago. Now, the best part of that is if you look up the actual facebook. Invite. It says that they will gather and then no rudo run to to area fifty one, which which are you kidding me like that's such a terrible plan like I remember reading that at the time thinking you all are about to get shot dead in the lizzy after really there's really no other. Way that it would that right right and it says, it says they're going to Naruto run and they'll be faster than their bullets to to me I'm like, what are these people talking about? Like? That's absurd. Someone spending way too much time watching anime and not enough time reading physics books. Yeah absolutely. Absolutely great way to put it. So yeah, they did. They did have really bizarre schedules and Bob's mentioned multiple times they get called at like four fifteen. Hey, you gotta be at the airport at four, forty five you're playing leaves five, and that's that's kind of hard have work scheduled like that when you don't know when you're GONNA get called. But when you balance it off a what you're going to work to do I, mean I'm fine with a call me five minutes before to be there I don't care definitely I sleep there. I would just camp out right outside a call me when Niemann and he said and he said that some of the scientists did actually stay there and they were caught on like two week. On one week off type of deal depend dependent on the. imagine what section of the of s four you're actually working at. Once they got into. Area Fifty one the flight tastes in there and. Typically when you got there, the hangar doors were usually closed. Going into the entrance to the facility and Bob Actually tells of a time when they were not closed. So he's looking and he finally got a glimpse into the hangars, he sees one of nine flying saucers inside the day. I mean. You're walking around in this bay and you're like, dude, this is typically. Than shut off completely private and then you're like, okay, fine. It's it's open whatever you're still walking through and then you see a flying saucer. So. So it's it. Yeah Right. It's actually interesting because when he mentioned this story, he says that he doesn't think they're alien aircraft. He thinks this finally explains why everybody's seeing ufo's because this is the new fighter plane working on so In and I think he said it had an American flag on it too. So. He's not thinking even at this time that these that these ships our off world ships that were built there. Are, the next. In the lineage of you know however many fighter planes that we have throughout history. So he thinks it's hilarious. He thinks it's You know finally explains all these stories. It's the government test flying these new fighter plot. which I think is hilarious. And then he has no idea. Right, he's kidding himself into A. And all I can think of Independence Day in like that slow walk through the through the lab like third however many layers below the below the earth. That's all I can think of is like you know what kind of facilities are actually underneath their you know, right? Right So, sometime later after meeting his partner who will throughout he refers to his berry. Was Our was shown what he would be then working on. Lazar describes being a reactor of some sort half a spear with a hemisphere, roughly the size of a basketball as he describes which which when turned on. An anti gravitational field around it, which is insane to I for him to even be describing something like this that he saw, I mean. Anybody I mean I can I can see why people were like Yao gay dude whatever right because of the technology that the technology that they're referring to is is insane absolutely insane. We have nothing even remotely close to doing the stuff that this thing does. and. It doesn't produce any kind of. Heat it doesn't get above ambient temperature is producing A. Absurd amount of energy absolutely absurd. Amount of energy something we can't even comprehend. No. So. Then Berry tells Bob to try to touch the sphere in he describes attempting to do it and he explains that it's almost the same as pushing repelling magnets together except there's no medal involved. Who simply as hand being forced away So I. Mean it's it's got that's gotta be shocking to to put your hand toward something and feeling that feeling of the magnets. But knowing that there's no involvement in any metal, there's nothing it's basically creating a force field around this thing which doesn't exist right nothing nothing that we have exist and if you think about the Even, the military applications in something like that. If you put up force field around at tank, you could put a force field around soldiers. This thing isn't that big this reactor, it's a hemisphere of a basketball. So it's not massive by any stretch right? Also, this was thirty years ago right? Was Our side couple with some of his briefings that he had read getting a glimpse into the space craft in the hangar? Is when it all clicked? His job was to reverse engineer apparent alien, technology. The briefings he had read explained that the project was to back engineer the alien craft and specifically to replicate it with available materials. Classified projects often are very compartmentalized so that the researchers have just enough what? Just enough information to do the job that they are tasked with, but they don't know the whole picture Lazar was tasked with Propulsion Unit of the craft and I mean, you know that is not uncommon like even in the technology world, you know you've got all these companies working on secret projects all the time, and if you think about it, you've got all these different areas like let's take a cell phone. For example, you're working on the cellular technology. Then you're working on the operating system that you're working on the camera you're working on the screen you've got all these different areas of. Of. Focus where everybody can work separately. But then when the project comes together, that's when you actually see the fruition of. This is not uncommon. This would actually be very common way to accomplish this goal because it means that the information the real information about what's trying to be accomplished doesn't get out into the wrong hands. You only. Want you only want the the right people to know the right stuff and you don't need. You know. Some random guy like. At the time to no more than a needs to rhyme and it makes it makes perfect sense. So he goes on to explain the bizarreness of the reactor. When it's powered off if you lift the dome. Off The the hemisphere. Nothing is connected with any kind of wires. The components aren't connected in any way they just seem to work by being in the vicinity of it of each other. The other oddity is that this machine is producing a large amount of energy and it never raises temperature like I said earlier, there's no off gas there's no exhaust it's not even raising in temperature. So it's literally working at one hundred percent efficiency. So you've got this crazy machine producing insane amounts of energy and not producing any sort of Gasser. He just like you said. So you know being that you know nothing on our planet can do that at the same as this reactor with little or no side effects it is. It just instantly gets was ours attention which I would understand entirely. He continues to work on this project for what he says must have been around six months before the incident that caused him to actually come back occurred. So Lazar discovered that test flights of the Intact would occur on Wednesday night around Papooses Lake and the explanation that he he's given is the area the area on Wednesday nights has the lowest amount of traffic. So it's the lowest chance at anybody's going to see this thing flying around in the night sky. So by this point, he's like he's kind of like making a plan he's pre-planning he's analyzing and Kind of figuring out. When this stuff's going to happen and when he can get a glimpse and really see what's going on, which is really cool. Right Shoulder. He's like Sherlock Sherlock Holmes and. So he does probably what any of us would do at the time, which is like, let's bring some friends and show him the spacecraft craft around in the night sky right make sense everybody wants to see that. So. He brings his friends once twice on the third time they get a little careless. They bring like an Rv they're probably barbecue and drink in. And they actually get encountered by guards from the base. So he's detained. In. Lazar. Own Words they brought him into the Facility for debriefing. And they had presented him with transcripts from his home phone. Now, at the time, his wife was actually having an affair and that's what was on the briefing. So now he knows that. They're listening to him on his home phone. He knows that he's probably a good amount of trouble because Awadhi just did. And they joke around with them at first and say you know When you when we told you, you couldn't tell anybody about this. We met your friends. Do you know that right? Now joking thing to do and he says that he doesn't even know that they were sure. What to do with them because they let him go that night. So now like I said he's Starting to get a little worried because he knows that he's in trouble he knows that he's being monitored. And this is the point where he never returned to work at us for now. Some of the things that I found in his story. All seemed to be the same except for a couple of things in this is one of the couple of things sometimes he says. They took his clearance away and that's why he never returned to work, and then sometimes he said he was scared to return to work because. Of, what had happened and he know honestly couldn't those both be the same like Maybe they did take his clearance away but at the same time like maybe he never returned to the base because he was scared as I mean it could be both in all reality think about it. Right. So what what are you guys thinking about this guy? I mean so far I mean I think he he seems credible. You know. I'm a person who believes in aliens and I'm a natural skeptic. which we've discussed before on the show but. I think that. You know aliens have to exist in the universe is just too big for their not to be something out there. So believe it exists. Do I believe this guy's story necessarily I don't know because I'm a natural skeptic I like to see physical evidence and I like to see things that are that are laid out in front of me rather than than the testimony of someone else and especially you know this this last thing that we talked about, you know he gets caught and in the moment of getting caught. You know you Kinda get your security clearances taken away. What happens when people you know who who are doing a job get get released from their job without them really wanting that to happen. They get they get angry and they tried to lash back out eke out they speak out. So in that that that I think explain your exactly explains why he would come forward with something like this because it was relatively soon after he left that he came forward. And did the interview that we discussed earlier on in the episode. So I think you nailed that perfectly right there Ryan actually and as far as the as far as any kind of like it's just a mathematics. It's almost a mathematical certainty that there's a life out there somewhere else. Out there. Has To be when you look at when you look at some of the numbers. involved. In space. It's just it's it's a no brainer I really think so I I really have a hard time listening to people that think were alone. And this stuff is all fake and it's never going to happen and that kind of stuff because it's just it's just not plausible in my opinion. When I was younger, I wanted to be I wanted so bad to be an to be an astronaut and I think a lot of kids did. But then as I got older, I realized I don't know if I want to fly to space because that seems dangerous I watched the Challenger explode. I'm of that I was born in the year the Challenger exploded. So think about that in any think that's a little dangerous maybe astrophysics it'd be a good place to go. I ended up going into it but astrophysics I would have loved to have done that and this. So this area is, is something that I'm very interested in it I mean like you said, the math of it has to say there's there's life there's something out there whether it's Protozoa, you know little amoeba of a of a thing. That's one thing but you know if it is intelligent life if it is something that we can that we can reason with you know if you've ever seen a rival if it's something that we can communicate with and figure out the language of that changes human history entirely, right absolutely that would absolutely be the biggest discovery and will remain the biggest discovery. Of Human History Without A. Because ever in the and it's almost like one hundred percent certainty in my mind that there are. A me buzz in that kind of stuff out there I'm talking intelligent life. Specifically it's a very, very high probability that it's out there. Also I would agree with you on that there's gotta be something I. Don't know the level of intelligence I mean are we looking at a situation I? If you've ever seen the day, the earth stood still. I watch a lot of fi like. I watch a lot of movies. All do so so I mean. Think about it like any in a way of of the day, the Earth stood Celio this per- this alien comes to Earth takes on the form of a human and tries to deal with with leadership. Of course, leadership on the world is is infinitely stupid and makes a lot of really horrible mistakes and we ended up where we end up in that movie. If if you've never seen it, I highly suggest you go watch it. Are we talking about that level, right? Not Right now wait until the podcast is over please and if you're listening to this in the car, definitely, don't watch it because that's a horrible idea. Stop looking up right now right Google this at a stop because someone's going to Honky you, you should probably keep going. So I. Think the cool thing about Bob, Lazar, specifically, as that maybe this is exactly what this. Research, facility needed at the time. He's he's a guy that put a jet engine on his Honda. They need somebody that thinks out of the box and. He says Multiple Times that the way that they operate at this facility, nobody's allowed to talk to anybody you're only allowed to talk to your partner and that for science is absolutely. I, mean, it's a tragedy for science because you science is about free ideas and speaking and talking and bouncing ideas off of each other if you can't do that. That's why this. This team has been stagnant for so long. So they need a Bob Lazar, they need somebody that's GonNa put a janitor and on their Honda because he can. Probably. Did he probably put a? In on all the employees cars. Right, part of the deal. Yes. Hey, you want top secret clearance, put a jet engine it on my card Yup I actually came across the name of the clearance that that he claims he had was majestic and it was like thirty six levels over q clearance, which is the civilian. Top secret clearance after unveiling his identity and telling a story to the public. There were many attempts to discredit and dehumanize him as would be the norm George KNAPP, the investigative reporter who initially broke Lazar story began having a difficult time proving any of Lazar history. Caltech and MIT had no record of a Bob Lazar attending or graduating Los Alamos National Laboratory had no record of him ever being employed at the facility furthermore, an attempt to get Lazar birth certificate proved impossible as they had no record of him being born nor did the hospital he was born at while some say. This completely discredits this story others say is a clear attempt to erase his past and if you think about it. Isn't that exactly what this government would do in that situation it would absolutely absolutely sat and I think that. What really kind of leads to that thinking is that they are race his birth certificate I think they should have not erased disperse certificate because that makes it a little obvious right his mom saying, no, he exists. His wife is saying, no, he exists. So. They just went one step too far if they just erased his schooling. Then that would probably discredited a store and completely. Right I would agree with anybody can say, exactly I mean think about it like anybody can say they go to a school and then you find out that they don't go to that school but not everybody can say, Hey, I exist and then be proven to not exist that doesn't really work. That doesn't really make any sense. It's almost like saying, Hey, this computer in front of me exists or it doesn't Right obviously exists I'm using. It doesn't really that doesn't really hold water as an argument. Right. So so in an attempt to find any piece of Lazar History George KNAPP gets his hands on a couple of things that are very important I think to proving his schooling and proving his past he gets the news article. That, we talked about earlier about the jet powered Honda that he had built in the article. It says that he's a physicist at Los. Alamos National Laboratory. They also get a phone book, the phone directory from the lab that shows his name and phone number amongst the other scientists and physicists at the facility. They also go george goes in questions, some of La's older friends. And they say. They used to derive Bob all the time to Caltech back in the day. So if he wasn't going to school there, he sure was putting on a good show back in the day of it because they drove there are a lot now would this guy? If, you think about this somebody could say, Oh, well, he was just probably putting that show on. So he could tell the story later is he really putting on a show ten years before he comes out and tells the story right that doesn't sound plausible to I. Don't know what you think about it. But so the thing is, is that you know to kind of bounce off what you just said Chad is is Bob didn't have the yeah. Sure Bob walked up to Edward, teller usery magazine or the newspaper and and they had that conversation but. Bob Was. Know he was walking up to somebody that respected just like any of us would in having a conversation with him and. He didn't have the the say-so or the power to. Then give him reference, refer him to this position and it was tie so much time later that. That that even happened. So for people even speculate that he had this big plan that he was going to you know. Get this government level top secret clearance. I mean that would be the worst plan in the world especially for somebody who's so calculated like a physicist would be right. Yeah. It's and it's also when he goes to. Come forward. There's he has to know that. George KNAPP at the time was a huge investigative reporter and Las Vegas, which is not a tiny little town. So he's a major investigator reporter. He has to know that this guy's GonNa dig deep and try to find improve the story or disprove it, and that's exactly what he does. He makes Lazar take multiple polygraphs. He's gone under hypnosis to try and remember some of the science that he learned. While he was working there. He's passed all the polygraph so. It's I know I just find this guy very, very compelling. Very compelling. I mean I would agree I think that I think there's a lot that's a place and a lot of things that Kinda, lineup and. It would be the. Evil Scheme of a lifetime you know to be pulled off. For him to do something like this, and then to to try to you know For the the fact is he didn't want. Like you said, he didn't want any of this fame popularity. He didn't want the people contacting him all the time I mean. Right, he wants to live his life. Losers. Yeah he wants to live his life. He didn't. He's from what I've found is never take any kind of money or anything like that his. And he doesn't even care about the aliens really. He doesn't care about that. He cares about the technology and the science, right? That's what drives him. That's what drove him to get the job. That's what drove him while working there was the science behind it because he's mentioned multiple times that it was a horrible place to work. People were always yelling and screaming was just it's a government place right I mean it's not the most efficiently run place so. He really is not gaining anything from this if anything. I mean he's probably made his life significantly harder than would have been if he just would have never said anything right because for him family friends, right? Right and his wife even even has commented and it might have been in the documentary. Bob Doesn't lie. He's he doesn't lie. He he's not somebody that just makes up stories. He's not going to make this up and he's not GonNa go to the lengths. That he did if he did make it up, he's not going to have his. Friends drive them to a fake school. He's not going to ten years before hand he's not going to make up all these. You know what? I mean. It just doesn't make sense and you know I think that you know something to consider is that you what if what if he started in this is purely a devil's advocate position what if he started this, not knowing the level that he would actually achieve you know what if he started this with like? Well, you know I'm Gonna I'm going to mess with everybody a little bit but not really understanding the level to which people would take him seriously and then at what point in that response do you actually say? I was actually joking the entire time. Point you actually say that you know. That doesn't really it doesn't really add up if you if you really think about it if you like if you really really really think about it if he did make this up if he did push it. At what point would he say he's not. At what point would you say that he's not serious that he rush? Right I think at the point that he's at if that's True Ryan, just to go off the story let's assume that's true. He made this entire thing up i. don't think he ever says. Right 'cause. It's not like he's lying to his friends his family he's lied to his wife for me years. All best friends he's lied to a you know major people, investigative reporters, all kinds of stuff I don't think he ever says it right exactly I mean even even if it was all lie and you know in here here on this podcast, I think that we one thing we strive to do is we never want to say Oh yeah, this is definitely true. Because we don't want to to look at the the odd parts of life and say, Oh yeah that's absolutely true. We want to leave some interpretation open I at least in my opinion an you know right to me there is an interpretation level that you could take with this where you can say, okay well, this dude, you know he he you know he got he got drunk with some friends and he had an idea and then he called this dude he. Did an interview was like you know what this is going to be completely off the record no. One's going to know who I am and then people found out who he was and that changed everything. Now, not to say that his story isn't true. I'm not saying that but you know at what point as a as a human being in the planet. At what point in in his history would you actually stop and Satan I was actually joking the whole time? I don't know that I would I really don't know right and I think I think it's It's probably scary for him in a way. To think about that because. Maybe he's lying everybody and he actually does Kinda like the fame a little bit. He likes the attention he's getting now some of the attention like the the FBI's rating has places and stuff some of that attention. There's no way you could like it right sure. But maybe maybe let's just play devil's advocate he loves it. He loves people are chasing him. He loves whatever it is it scary for him to come out and say you know and discredits everybody that has tried to prove from right to George KNAPP, who's a very, well renowned investigator reporter that would totally ruin his career probably. So at a point, it's not just about yourself anymore it's about the people. You Talk to the people that believed you the people that went to bat for you. The people that made a documentary by there's so many different people that you'd be screwing over by coming out right I mean, it's You know I was just going to say for instance. Jeremy. Cordell. This guy has gone great lengths to. Just. Make a documentary about Bob Lazar. He has been an advocate for Bob Lazar to try to get. His story out there and his story legitimized. There are obviously tons of people that are skeptics and and he I you know in my opinion I. Think He Really Feels for the guy he he's like, he's like you know this the. Disguise live normal life, right? He's he's got all these people On his back he's got. It's it goes. It goes above. Somebody. Just saying. Hey this thing happened and and people being like okay. Yeah. So we are going to get too much more of this story. But I Here is an addict from myth story. Hey Me Hey Brian. What do Hood Vlad The impaler in Mothman have in Common Educa- what well, they're all topics on our podcast mystery where each week we discuss a new myth and the history behind it. That's myth story with an I. E. C. Then Oh. During his employment at s four, Lazar claims to have read briefing documents explaining Earth's ten thousand year old involvement with extraterrestrial entities referred to as grey lands. In the documents stated that these aliens came from a planet orbiting the Zeta Ridiculous Star System. More specifically CR three or the third planet in the system. Zeta routinely. Binary Star system approximately forty light years away from Earth and it's visible only in the southern hemisphere. This isn't the only time that data reticulation has been mentioned as it relates to ufo stories. While as our states, he does not know how the government choir the ships for certain. He does recall a story Berry had mentioned briefly so. To Lazar that he thinks at least one of the ships came from an archaeological dig. No location was given to the story by Berry. But this maintains that some of these ships might be not only old but ancient right. So these these these if it comes from an archaeological dig than it's got to be very, very old, which is insane it Kinda proves that these. that. These species are aliens are you WanNa put it that that are Being discovered through this technology is. That, they are ancient that they are from from behind. Comprehend right and they've been here for a long time if we got one of their ships from an archaeological dig. So, Zeta particularly can only be seen with the naked eye on dark night in the Southern Hemisphere and as of two thousand twenty. There's no such thing as the are three there are no EXO planets that. That orbit, this binary star system. So. You can take that. Now I think he mentioned before that. Sometimes. They put wild stuff in these in these briefings that way if he were to leak it Maybe he reads that it came from. Zeta. Maybe the next guy reads it comes from a different star system when you leaks it he they know that it was Lazar that leaked it because it came from, you know what? I mean. So it's not out of the realm of possibility but has been mentioned before and I know I knew when I was doing the research on this that I had heard Zeta ridicule before. So in my mind, I remember Zeta particularly being the star that they go to the movie Alien Ryan have. You seen the movie alien I of Course I have come on. Yeah. So I turned it turned out that I was right they do get a distress call from Zeta particularly in the movie so that instantly while I'm doing this research like Oh, this guy's just trying you know he's saying that it comes from the same star system that the aliens do in the eighties movie that probably super-popular when he's telling the story. But then as done as I dug deeper into it. There was actually an abduction story in nineteen, sixty, one September of nineteen, sixty, one, Barney and Betty Hill. They live in New Hampshire and they were traveling back from vacation when they saw a bright light in the sky, just like every single abduction story, you ever heard they pull over to observe it and we can really do probably an entire episode on this thing. So I'm not going to touch on it too much but now they lose hours worth of time and end up. Miles away from where they remember being. And through all the different hypnosis and stuff that betty went to try to remember stuff she actually draw drew a Star Map. In the Star Map. Nobody could place it. Nobody had any idea there's like that it doesn't even exist. except I think it was like an. Maybe, an English teacher something got a hold of it and she discovered that it's actually what? The stars would look like from Zeta ridiculously, and one of the stars in that looking out is our son. So that's where it went even further back on like now you know you've got the alien thing which I which I thought is where Bob got this from. and. Now we go back to this and Betty still refers to the grey aliens that she met that night as Zeta. So I thought it was kind of off topic a little bit but I thought it was a little interesting to put in here because definitely, oh, for sure out. Agree I. Mean You look at the the grace you know like let's will start using the grey aliens because everyone knows the grace right? If you've ever seen the the movie Paul or if you've ever seen. Close encounters of the third kind you understand Mars tax they're all the same idea there. The idea of this this alien that is gray appearance big head big is. Really no mouth. Communicating through some sort of telekinesis. This is a very commonly held experience of aliens. So it makes perfect sense that this would be the the explanation now does that mean that he is right and that he actually is making sense or is he just feeding into the populist nature of alien? biography. The there's a history of alien here. Whether you know whichever way you want to cut it. That is he just feeding into that same That seemed shared belief that same shared understanding is he just feeding into that or is he actually showing something different right? I think I think it could really go either way when I first saw the the alien specifically from the movie I was like. Yeah I think that the movie came out in nineteen seventy nine, he's telling a story ten years later it's probably it's still popular today. So it had to be popular wreck then. So he's just talking about the aliens in that movie. And that's the star system that pops. into his mind. And then, and then I found the betty story in the Barney's Barney and Betty Hill story and it was like Oh. That's kind of interesting because it seems like I couldn't really find any other. Substantial stories where they said that these graves or from Zeta retired. But I mean I guess it could happened that the the fact that there's no exo planets around the binary star I think kind of disproves that a little bit. But that doesn't mean that aren't any exo planets around the star. We might not have seen him yet obviously many of set out to disprove Bob in his story time and time again, what he has said is actually eventually come out is true. The hand scanner for instance, he tried to describe that was used to get into as for was revealed years. Later, the same scanner us to get into the self program was are explained that the alien craft uses a reactor in an alien element known as element one fifteen to affect gravity waves up until recently, gravity was thought to be produced by theoretical particles known as gravitons. British. Scientists have sensed detected gravity waves seemingly proving Lazar was correct again once again, the recent news that the Pentagon's UFO unit will no longer hide in the shadows and we'll make some findings. Public was accompanied with a classified briefing that astrophysicists and Pentagon contractor Eric W Davis gave to government officials in the briefing. He discusses the retrievable of an off world vehicle not made on this earth and I'm very intrigued by the UFO unit I can't wait. I'm going to be like a little kid on Christmas morning every time that they release something because I find this stuff very, very, very exciting if you even look at. Some of the Pentagon releases the videos that the Navy pilots had. Bob Lazar always stated that these ships don't fly like they do in sci fi movies straight across they actually turn their belly to their destination and fly that way down in like in star wars one of the videos, NCI? Boba Fett ship and star. Wars Zach clicked way of winning it so. He. The video that was released. Actually shows that ship turning its belly before going off the screen. So I found it I was like, Oh, my goodness is just another thing that proves him right and then the element one, fifteen thing. I mean we could probably do a you know that's why. Bob Lazar was raided by the FBI and the documentary they think that he stole a piece of this element one, fifteen, this fuel. and. It's actually on the periodic table now. I think two thousand and was either two, thousand and five or two, thousand fifteen it was put onto the. Periodic table and I think it's like McCoy neom or something Mosconi or something like that but it's actually a non stable. It's a non stable. Version of element one fifteen and he explains in the movie how element one fifteen is made but it I mean, it's way beyond my powered understand what he's saying so. what do you? What do you guys think about this Ufo Unit? You guys excited to hear what they say or what course. I mean you know? What other time in history can you think of that? You know the government actually? Said Hey. Yeah. UFO's exist. Here's some information about them. I mean. That's that's kind of unprecedented if you really think about it in our modern history. I don't want any that we are. A it kind of goes in line with what I was saying like. People are becoming more aware and it's almost like they have to. At this point they have to give us something right and you know with all the digging that not just were doing everybody. You know we have now this this documentary that was released a obviously about Baba Czar. and. After people are watching this. I. Mean This Guy Million Obviously Netflix's it. Got Me. Of Us and you can't just. Give people that kind of information along with all the other stuff that was released the interviews and all that kind of stuff like you you can't just. That can't just be public and then and then give people nothing. So so it is very exciting. It's obviously that we're all looking forward to seeing and I'm sure that we will definitely post an update on the blog. When that is released. Oh. Yeah. Absolutely I will be all over the blog posts for every single UEFA released from this unit and I and I'm kind of hoping I kind of think I already know it's going to I. Think it's going to probably disprove lobster or I'm sorry proved Bob. Story. More and more is more and more gets released because he's already got. It seems like everything that he said so far nothing has really been disproved. You know what I mean. It's always it's always the stuff that he says like this wild hand scanner, it's a hand scanner. He tried to explain to people in the eighties that pretty much looked at him like he was crazy. It's like a it's got pins in it on your hand and say. Own Bone, densities. Bone. People tried to really like be like dude, you're absolutely crazy because nothing like this exists and now there's releases that say we actually use that in the stealth program and there's pictures of it and it's exactly what Bob Describes so And then the gravity thing, I mean it it's been thought for for a significant amount of time that gravity was caused by these theoretical particles known as Gravitons, and now now they actually know that it's a wave, which is another thing that Bob Lazar said the ship's affect gravity waves. So it's just you know and it's all like really. Guest any of this stuff all. Rightly. So what what have you read in his in his lineage in the information that he has provided that you think might be suspect they're just just specifically attack that angle what do you think might be suspect of what he has actually brought to light. I think what is suspect to me from doing all this research was the Zeta. Thing that was really the only thing that I came across that was Kinda like. I don't know, and then there's another thing where he states back in the original interview and might not be the absolute first interview that he did because I think it was after he got his shadow removed and he was out in the public. But he states that he walked past a window in s four and took a quick glance in just a small door window. And saw what appeared to be two. Men In lab. Coats. And a Grey Alien Chair little a little alien in the chair now years later he he he comes out and says, I, don't think I actually saw alien I, think they had a doll or a dummy of some sort and they were measuring. measurements for the inside of the ship. So. Those are the only two things that I really came across that I thought were. Kind of suspect. So during my research. As well, doing doing a little bit. Here and there throughout the preparation I came across A. a youtube channel called the behavior panel. and. I'm going to share this side of it because I think it is important for you to get both sides. This particular video was a panel of. Body language analysts and they claim to be experts in in their in their field and. They analyzed. Multiple interviews from. Bob Lazar. Some from when he started and then the latest one on the Joe Rogan podcast. and. The one thing that I thought to be kind of skeptical or something that that I thought that was compelling to share the the opposite side is. Their argument. First of all, they thought that he was. Being deceitful, and while I don't fully agree with that at all I think that. One interesting point is that they thought that. He had time to create this theory over thirty years of doing interviews and that he had time to. to kind of perfect his story you had told me about this video. And I went onto the Internet trying to find it but I don't remember you telling me the exact the Yoda fine. So I actually found a different one and I found one by Derek van strike or something like that said hour long video and he's the same Guy Body language guy and he doesn't find anything deceitful on any of his videos so when you told me Go, watch this video they think he's lying was like, wow, this is weird because this video saying the exact opposite, right? Right. Right I think. He's a very eccentric. and. So I definitely want to look up that other one and I think that's important to say because body language is definitely something that is I don't want to say it's easy to tell somebody's lying with body language but there are experts out there that can make it easy, right? Yeah. You're absolutely absolutely right about that. I mean there's So much science behind trying to find the. Source of a lie. That that makes it very interesting to actually pay attention to the body language of somebody who is trying to give you a story right and the in it's an it's really it's the same thing. It's the Joe Rogan interview and it's some of his older interviews. And I I I just thought. It was fantastic because he's he doesn't really do anything that this guy thinks is you know there's like comforting movements you make and. EXP- over explaining things, I can't remember how he said it. explaining not conveying or something like that. But I I thought it was interesting. It's definitely worth looking into fear into stopping those videos because what I found interesting in those videos. This guy does guy has not changed the story. Like from his order interviews to Joe Rogan which to my knowledge is the the newest interview that he's done. It's the same. It's the same there snippets here, and they are like the alien thing that he recanted on where he saw the alien in the window. And The Zeta particularly thing but he says that in the Joe Rogan thing too. So he does not change his story which I find very. Would think. They always say if you never lie, you never have to remember anything. I would think after thirty years some of the stuff would be slipping his mind, right? Yes. So let's just go down the line and we'll start. With. Roy. Ryan. What is your? What's your opinion? What do you think is is this legit or not? So for me what he's saying sounds very legitimate. However have to have to lean back on the idea that you know what it, what if he is actually making it up what if he made up that that initial interaction where he was quote Unquote Dennis. What if he then had back that information up and like I said earlier, you know what at what point do you say? Well, I was actually lying about all that you probably don't so to me. At what point do you do you hit that wall where you say okay yeah, I was lying. About all that you know really, I wasn't really being truthful about it. You know in all reality I worked at their front desk and I allowed people into the facility in maybe I didn't know anything. But at the same time. What are the likely? What is the likelihood I guess of him being truthful and if he is being truthful, what does that mean for for what we understand about the universe and what's out there does that mean that we have already experienced something that we can't really explain or does it mean that he has described something we can't explain and we still can't explain it because we don't have all the details I'm not I'm not one hundred percent sure on either either side of that at this point, I think it's my opinion. I am often very skeptical on things like Ryan is but through doing the research and I really went in initially because I had I had seen this documentary. Probably when it came out and I had listened to the Joe Rogaine was super into it and I was super skeptical back then. But at the end of the documentary and at the end of the interviews me, I was very convinced. With him and then the research for this episode just made me even more convinced. I think that he's not lying I. Think. Just the stuff that has been proved right over and over again. I guess you can say you think he might be guessing but he's a really good gasser if he's if he's guessing so it's my opinion that. This guy holds some weight and I think he's going to continue holding wait as soon as. UFO. Briefings come out. Because It's just little snippets here and there that keep proving his story. And really not anything substantial that disproves it. So what does that mean for the history of our of our society? What? What does that mean like if if he's one hundred percent correct. What does that mean for our overall understanding of the world and in the universe really and how we in place actually is in I think it's Alex you want to answer that one I mean. So. If he's right and to be honest to row quick to to share my opinion I I think that I do think he's telling the truth I think that he's a Between the. Between the fact that. He doesn't really have much to gain. He doesn't really want much gain I i. do I think he's telling the truth so to answer your question. If he is telling the truth and if he was right about all these things. then. What do we have to gain as a society as a You know in especially in the technological industry I don't think we have to gain anything and I'll tell you why. because. There are lots of scientists. There are lots of physicists. There are lots of doctors who do years and years of research with anything. And none of it comes out. Because there is there is there is a line, it's linear there. There's a line. That we are taking as a as a nation, not not even just as a nation as A. As a people. that. This is how things go. These these specific The specific population is is meant to do this specific thing, and we will be gained by having these things at this period of time in the timeline and. Saying that we have alien technology even if it is released I mean I don't honestly see us. doing much with it at all I mean look at the humming this is really jumping away but but look at the like for instance, the moon landing and we could get into whole discussion with that but that was completely revolutionary. You know. for for you know for its time and went and it was publicized. We're ready to get us. I can. See what you're saying I think there's a lot to be gained from this story of the story is true. Technologically, there is a lot to be gained here I think this stuff should be in the hands of the government I. Think it should have. A much more substantial amount of what it is in the hands of the government is racing. Oh so with you're saying just never gonNA. Yeah. Okay. With being in the hands. Yeah. With it being in the hands of the government. Nothing's GonNa come of it right because because it is not be something being in the hands of the government is not meant to. Benefit the people in the society. It has meant to benefit the military and the government and and and their means of using that technology. It's just the same as thirty years ago he was talking about transparent glass that on command would would go from a opaque to transparent and we see that inside movies and that's a now he sees like smart glass and stuff like that. But Right Now, that's thirty years after the fact, right? So so it's And that's an inherent thing I. think like you're saying the government having it is is there They don't care about us. They don't care about anything that we could use that stuff for the amount of good. We could do with that technology they care about militarising it they care about protecting their tanks and the government is always to act in its own self interest. So if they find a way to to utilize. Whatever technology where we're talking about here? No matter which which angle or form that it takes. If it benefits, the government overall. There their their overall investment in this conversation is to suppress that information so that they no longer have to deal with how it's going to affect the rest of the world as far as our conversation with them. Right and I think that I think. That's why. I personally believe that. The story is true like I said. So I think that the government knows that there is other life out there and I don't know that we will see in our lifetime where they come out and say it because if you think about what kind of mass chaos that could really produce and what kind of ripple effects that could have through religion religious tax and everything that that the ripple effect it would have. It's easier to suppress it right just like it's easier to say that Bob was ours lying. It's easier to say that he's lying. It's easier to do that than it is to go out and try to prove his story. So I don't think that. As, much as I want them to I don't think this UFO units Ghana's mention anything of other life I think it's going to be just these just these. Odd occurrences of these. In there are probably not even gonNA say their crafts are probably going to say they're something else but we'll see. But I I which is why things like perseverance are so incredibly important. Keeping, an eye on the things that NASA is actually doing and how they're actually landing these craft on Mars, for example. They're going to have an entire helicopter that's GONNA lift off and do different things on this planet. In an environment that we have no idea how it's going to react to this information. seem that information come back is going to be a wildly. I don't even know like a revolutionary moment. For us as as human beings on this planet to understand like how does how does it? I know it sounds so menial in so many ways, but how a helicopter deals with the atmosphere of Mars. Is is a very, very different conversation to how do we deal with with the Moon the moon. So close that we understand so much the Mars. But Mars so far that we understand. So little and that that is a fundamental difference in the conversation there and then. That goes back to the fear thing people if you if you really and I think I mentioned this earlier but if you think about it if this, if this story is true, these aliens are here they've come here that's horrifying and I'll explain why because if they're able to come to us, we can barely get to the moon. Hard time, we have months of planning to get to the space station if they're able to freely come to another galaxy. That's scary. The. We are the Stone Age to them. They're able to interstellar travel that's horrifying to know that they're out there. and. The government probably doesn't want to release that because that would probably in some sections of the world cause mass chaos knowing that these things are out there. I. Keep back to the fact that this was thirty years ago and he's talking about technology that we still consider advanced that they had then right. I in this top secret government facility, I mean in the in thirty years technology I mean, we all know this in thirty years technology can skyrocket. Yeah. Yeah. It's absolutely because actually at a government military level or you kidding, yeah they say, they say that the that are smartphones have more technology in it than the moon landing ship had. At the time Bob told his story. They didn't seem to know how this thing worked. He didn't seem to figure out how it worked is not out of the realm of possibility that in this thirty years, they know how this thing works. And they've now replicated. This thing will never know that right? Maybe maybe fifty years they'll come out with a press release that said and two, thousand and twenty. We started putting force fields around our tank. We've got smartphones just becoming more and more prevalent with incredible cameras in incredible video recording capability. We've got this history of all of these video of UFO's and whatever else why don't we have that now? Any ideas on that because it seems like if I can record four K. at sixty frames per second, there's no reason why we shouldn't have more of this. What do you guys think about that? Just. Like I said, I think that we're getting just as much as we. It's the same as as the the personnel inside the top secret government facility. They were given just as much clearance as they needed, and we are being given just as much technology as we need and nothing more and probably less one hundred percent agree with you Alex Yeah I think that perfectly there. I did think it was kind of kind of 'cause he goes into a little bit of detail of looking in the ship. And he said there's no bathrooms. There's now anything that's that's recognizable to us. There's no computers. There's no computer screens which was relating to to saying that these the Pew whoever needs to sit in that is not human right? Right. Because they're small any any points out there smaller seats he said child side seats so it's not like. If our government did make this. Let's assume Bob Lazar is is lying, and this is just the new fighter pilot that we're working on. They wouldn't put childlike seats in it. Right. I mean ultimately as our probably our longest and most in-depth episode. I think that. We're going to leave a lot of things to to to to question and I think that that's really where it comes down to is that. This seems like okay. Well, we can totally take this as you know with no grain of salt. This is what it is and we're gonNA presented as it is but then they're also parts of it where it's a little bit more of a question and I think that that's where we where we find ourselves. So often in this show is in that question in that in that moment where we can say okay, well, yeah, there's a whole bunch evidence for this butts so. We encourage you to do your research we encourage you to. Look into this for yourself you know. Find out what you think. Do you think he's telling the truth after this. Do you think this is all completely made up and and honestly if skeptic before and this was. Something that was compelling to you, and now you WANNA look further. Let us know. A hop onto facebook at that strange podcasts and send us a message. Let us know talk to us or email us at contact at that strange dot net. I mean we love to hear from you honestly in any way that you that you choose to reach out. That is true. We just got a new. Website. Thanks to Ryan. Ryan you WANNA, share some of that stuff to absolutely so. I changed a couple of things. So if you go to that strange dot net, that's GonNa take you to our block. Now on that blog, you're actually gonNA find a number of links to all the different places where you can find and listen to our podcast and as we continue to experiment with different ideas. It's good to kind of check back there from time to time and see what we're up to. Now if you do have an idea contact at that strange dot net. It's super super easy, and if you do have an idea, please reach out to us. All right. Well, thank you for tuning in and checking us out and we will see you on the next one. Alex Chat. And we are that street.

Bob Lazar Bob Earth Ryan investigative reporter Las Vegas Honda George knapp Multiple Times alien technology Bob Actually Netflix Los Alamos Zeta MIT Tesla Edward Teller FBI Pacific at University
How to Use Clubhouse with Monique Howard, Tyler Crowley, and Adriana Freitas - Voicebot Podcast Ep 198

The Voicebot Podcast

55:43 min | 6 months ago

How to Use Clubhouse with Monique Howard, Tyler Crowley, and Adriana Freitas - Voicebot Podcast Ep 198

"This is episode one ninety eight of voice by podcast my guest there three more clubhouse power users education voice tech- founder. Monique howard stockholm tech fest. Organizer tyler crowley and v. investor adrian afraid us l. again voiced by nation brechin sela hosted the voice by podcast. Today we have the third in a four part series on the social audio platform clubhouse. It's a place where you can be heard and only seen in static image no larger than a penny an episode one ninety five we had tech analyst jeremiah yang who broke down the business models. Features product categories the monetization angles and some predictions for the social audio market at large that was filed by episode. One ninety-six three power users clubhouse from the analyst author media perspective. Today we add more voices to our clubhouse series. It includes a text star. Founder event organizers and venture capital investor and. this isn't it. We did ten interviews. All this reflects interviews five six and seven c really going to enjoy the next three. We have coming up but you will also get a lot out of all we have on tap for you today for we get started. I should let you know that. The third and final voiced by live for q one. Two thousand twenty one will take place on wednesday march tenth. The topic is voice assistance in mobile apps. I guess are two people that know a lot about this. Barris go tell. Kim and kathy pearl product management director for google assistant kathy. Parole is the design manager for google system and the author of the popular book designing interfaces there over five hundred million monthly active users google assistant and most of those around smartphones so team. Google knows a whole lot about voice assistance and mobile and with app actions. Bring the technology directly into the apps. It's not often. You get a google product manager and a live interview so this should be a great opportunity for the community to learn more and registered voice. Buddy i ford slash live voiced by forward slash live. This is not another talking head online conference and it's not a webinar voiced. By live is more like tv. That moves along with fast pace. We also share some unique data that you won't find elsewhere so i hope you can join us. Live register. get the link at voiced by dot four slash live. Also i have a shout out for this week. Sponsor my friends at voice flow are dedicated. Listeners the voice about podcast we appreciate that and they just had a big product launch last month. If you're not familiar voice flow. It's a conversation designed platform. People use it for designing prototyping launching conversational experiences. The company got started as easy to use code voice app builder and they've added an enormous number features over the past three years particularly those for team. Collaboration voice will be to extend that includes new decay. That allows you to work with any tech stack conversational platform and integrate with any t t s s. Or that's texas beach. Automated speech recognition and natural language understanding for those catching up with the lingo all components of a voice experience. Voice flow is vendor agnostic and they're focused on enabling you to be able to choose your own text stack components and you can now even build a custom assistant with the new voice flow. They're over sixty thousand users of the platform. So you know it's popular but you also know it's mature so they've worked out the kinks you can sign up for free at voice flow dot com. That's voice flow dot com get started designing and building your conversational experience okay. Now this week's gas we start off with voice industry company founder. Monique howard who necas. Ceo smarter and has been hosting classroom since the fall of twenty twenty to help people learn how to build voice apps. Interestingly enough smarts builds voice applications that support the socio emotional and conversation skills of neuro diverse learners. Mrs such an important for right now particularly with so many students unable to attend school where they can work on these skills directly with educators so really exciting there and very happy to tell you also how monique is using clubhouse today after a talk with muni. We're joined by tyler. Crowley tyler runs the largest up in europe. The stockholm tech up. You also organizes the popular dot com tech fast and dot com tech week which engages the entire nordics. He's also very experienced has a lot of hours on clubhouse and you'll hear his perspective on it. Which is i think very insightful. We finish up today's interviews speaking with adriana rightous adriana as a partner at muster ventures and deep impact ventures invests at the precede in seed stage in its focus on impact investing she uses clubhouse and even a different way so all three guests are active on clubhouse and they each use the app in a different way. That's what we'll discuss today. Three more models and how to use clubhouse coming to you now i is. Monique howard followed by tyler. Crowley adriana francis. Let's get started coward. Welcome to the voice by podcast. Hi thank you brett fridge. Finding me here yeah. I'm excited have you. So i've noticed that you have been very active on clubhouse. I'm looking forward to getting your perspective on it but before we get into that. Why don't you tell the listeners. A little bit about you and your role in the voice industry great so i am the ceo and founder of smart goals. And what we do. Is we create voice apps in the tech space specifically geared toward helping the supporting kids with social emotional learning conversations skills. So we've been doing that. We actually got into it around right before the pandemic on a small team of women got together on very focused. And we're really intentional. When we create those apps because we think about things like fine motor skills. We think about things like reciprocal communication and we think about things like building vocabulary. So it really really intention. We create the apps. That's amazing it's like voice tech- for good yes. Yes yes yes. So we are really excited about it. we partner with schools as well as non profits to kind of get those Apps within the to to the kids who have been need them the most and the one thing that we find that they're fun right. They don't really know that they're learning. So i was really really fun and then it also gives something different from just looking at a screen all day of pink playing a computer game so the people that we partner with a really excited about goes apps created. Yeah what time to launch it is. Everyone is remote learning from home. Now they're looking for tools precisely like what you're offering exactly in the big thing about it. Is that his exposure for us. We understand that yes. Most people have a device on. But they're only using it the weather or directions or to order something and so this exposes the kids to something different especially for those in underserved community who may not have a device at home it gives them extra exposure to understand it. Hey this is something that i can do. Which has led us to start creating courses or classes for young kids so that not only they're exposed to it but also learn how to create apps of their own great all right so i'm really glad to have that background. I'm sure there's you've piqued the interest of a lot of listeners. Who are probably going to check out some articles which will get into it at the end. We'll give give everybody to see. Ta that they can go and check it out today. We're talking about clubhouse. I would say we're clubhouse friends. We've been at a lot of room together. We spoke together on which has been great because we didn't really have any interaction before that maybe a couple of times twitter or something like that but We hadn't had a chance to formally so this is extending it further. We're at the podcast together. I would say someone in the voice industry. Why don't you start out by telling us a little bit about when you joined and what your first experiences were on the on the network so i joined in november. Maybe kind of late november noel. Silver is actually invited me so she myself and another friend of ours. We actually met at the conference in new jersey. The first voice conference there. So that's where we met and we kept in touch on Motive exactly And so that's where we met. She invited myself. And another lady denise to the platform my initial experience was that it was a great place for really rich conversation. So i can just bounce from room to room here with people are saying and joining i likes. I really really enjoy the fact that i can either be just a listener and just soak all the information or i can actually be involved in the conversation and i think that's the point that we miss a lot in that when we're listening you we love podcast but we would love to acts that person who's leading the podcasts or the host to just ask one question so that was the big thing for me and besides not having to get on video all the time so it's always a great bonus but my first day was like a twenty four hour marathon twenty four hours twelve or twelve hour marathon just really feeling the full of a voice what clubhouse actually causes people to feel and But then i kind of sell the into. Where the niche did i wanted to actually start participating in which was tech. I'm still around businesses startups. And so those were the main room said i really gravitated to so it. Sounds like you started out mostly as a listener but you've become increasingly more active. And i think you're you're hosting rooms now. So what did you talk about what your evolution was like. Why you sort of moved to where you are today and how you're using it today. Yes so that was one of our goals would know out in these night got onto. The platform is to educate bis small businesses about voice So obviously we had to get acclimated to the environment. What was going on. But we quickly schedule rome every friday at two central to just have it introduction to 'em where we saw amazon alexa right just as most people know about that missile. We hosted those roads every friday little small sided with a small group than it grew a little bit larger. We don't have large I would say has gotten large over time. But it's not like hundreds and hundreds of people but we often get a lot of people who kinda combat time after time and that was great experience because most of the people we even though we're talking in the stages there was so much can come up. Ask questions. It was still shy of asking us questions. Yeah so it was really interesting. We had to tweet a couple of things. We have to change our language a little bit just so that they felt welcomed to the stage and we started getting people onto stage and kind of grew a little bit of a. Yeah that's great and so you tell me. In terms of those of those events that led to the ones that you're hosting the rooms that you're hosting is that led you to be. Do people make new business relationships. What has come out of it for you. So we because purpose was to educate. We did actually do a workshop. They kept asking who her the hours the asking or so we did a workshop. Maybe either january. I believe it was in january. We did a saturday. One saturday to workshop and the goal was for individuals who wanted the skill to actually the class with the skill. It was a wonderful workshop. I mean it was a lot of back and forth questions and really diving deep and so that for us was kind of the icing on the top or kind of solidify the fact that hey people really want to know about this how to use it in their business. So that's one thing that came out of it and we plan on doing more workshops. How often we don't know maybe once a month with on his trial right but but individuals have been asking about that because they want to know how to create it in how to use it in their business for me personally Because i ran those rooms and because of my bio it does talk about voice. Tech- been accident on more than a medical side of things asking about how voice can be used in those industries And then i'm talking right now with an individual who is in pakistan Who wants to who has a platform for learning there and is interested in seeing how voice can actually be used there in that particular industry platform so some conversations around that have come out also because of what. I do is smart goals. We do partner with authors children authors publishers. Who are interested in how voice can actually be used to extend along. Jeremy up in author's book so not just one read a couple of reasons put on the shelf but actually have something that is you know a companion to the book got it so it sounds like it has definitely expanded your circle a bit in terms of the number of people you're connected with like were connected right now and and so it may be. There's some business benefits out of it. Maybe we'll see but it seems like to me that you're doing this you you maybe do this. Even if there were no business upside potentially exactly exactly the one thing like i said before it's just exposure education and because my background is i've been in it for twenty plus years with fortune five hundred companies and those companies are always on the pulse. Right they have the money to actually invest in see what's going on but as always a smaller businesses who get left behind and so that's my main goal is that as long as they're exposed to. They can make the decision on what to do about it. But i don't want them to feel as though kate five ten years on the line everything blows up and you're looking around like okay. What do i do. What's going on kinda like right the internet and the the having a web page and doing all of these other things social media. They really don't sometimes. I'll have the time but i think because of those clubhouse are seeking those things and so you're right if there was a business benefit to clubhouse it wouldn't matter i would still be there to educate great now. Those workshops needed to follow up on that. Did you host those workshops on clubhouse or was that online in a different channel. Now we it was through sue. Obviously because they had to see our screen. That's what i was thinking. We yeah exactly so it was off a clubhouse. I do try. Sometimes during our friday meetings to kind of guide people with through aware to find skills how to actually you know Seek out your competition whether people are doing But obviously it's harder so no. It was definitely on soon. Yeah so it's like channel switching. And i think a lot of people haven't figured that out yet if it's business it's top of funnel but it doesn't it doesn't have to be business-oriented could just be another way to connected zoom as a better better option for helping people build a skill for sure so so that's That's really interesting. So you're out in in november and in november there. I believe fewer than a million people. So let's say somewhere between five hundred thousand and a million people in november and i believe on the thirteenth of this month surpassed ten million people how things changed. Yes i. I haven't felt a difference. I guess because of the way the algorithm works you the people you follow the most of the rooms that you see and then the room's that you frequent our topics that you frequent rooms that you see and so i still see those those same grooms i those same topics And because i was on a platform early i did explore ways of how to find other people other rooms so i know that but for me it really hasn't felt any different on which is great because that's the worry it gets bigger and bigger and we lose the feeling that we i had when we were there we don't want to go anymore But yeah for me. It has not changed. So you're in the voice community. The listeners are largely in the voice. Ai community what tip would you give them. If they're new to the platform and are trying to figure out like how to make their way clubhouse definitely it's usually first couple awakes to explore and just not outside of your nisha as well because we definitely gravitate towards what we like but definitely look for other areas that you might be interested in or may not be interested in in just helps you to see what's out there and get us outside of bubble so i think that's for me. The biggest thing is not to bring my bubble with me on clubhouse because so many rich conversations i've been conversations with music people the music industry which i even i listen to music here and there but i'm not being in the music industry So i've been in rooms where they've just been people who actually do readings and chop talk about chocolate energy and so i probably would not gravitate to those rooms. I would stay in tech or st and business But because i did that early on. I still have an interest in that and so my rome is not just about Or voice tech or business. I have a little bit of mixture of that would be the main thing that i would say. Explore outside of your bubble awesome. How can the listeners find out more about what you're doing with some articles. Great so if you go to my smart M wise markle's s. m. a. r. t. i c. e. s. dot com. You go there and you will see everything about what we're doing. Awesome money coward. Thanks so much for sharing your perspective today. Thank you so much breath for happening tyler. Crowley welcome to the voice by podcast. Having to be with ya okay great. I think you know the drill. We're talking to people who i think are using clubhouse in interesting ways making good contributions and i just wanted to reach out to you and have you share some of your thoughts and experiences on the platform. Maybe the first thing you can do is tell the audience a little bit more about you. And what you do for your day job when you're not clubhouse when i'm well no i'm i'm officially a fulltime clubhouse are now but The the one hour of the month the actually do any of real work is An event in stockholm called the stockholm tech meet up which is in fact the largest tech technip in europe. And then. we've been doing that every month for just over eight years. It's live in person it's It's five hundred people in a in a crowded auditorium every month but since covert we've been doing it virtually and For the past nine months or so and then hopefully in the next three months from now. We'll go back to doing it live i. I'm i'm very much missing. Doing the event in stockholm make sense now. How has your audience changed. Essentially gone virtual bigger smaller different composition. A little bit bigger a little more international. The guests are more international because When we do it live with the guests are live in. it's usually london. it's always investors. The the format of the show is like shark tank with investors but we do an interview before the pitches so it's like you know the big investment from all around europe fly in and i interviewed him on stage for twenty minutes in play psychotherapists with them and then i bring out three startups. Who pitched them live on stage and try and get their money. It's essentially that And now during the virtual versions it affords me an opportunity to invite american investors chinese investors. You know all over asia all over the us South america who who of course would never be you know or very rarely be able to fly in and do them live as we do so. I'm kind of keeping all my nordic investor friends. You know in the safety box for when we go back to doing them live right. So would you go back to doing it live. Are you thinking about having a a mix of virtual impersonator. You just gonna go back to in person like you. Best look at you. Look at you. Smarty pants Exactly right so. I've gotten bit by the benefits of the virtual ness and it's there's now a new audience that never could watch it before because of righteousness and i'll i'll share with you. My latest thoughts were. Here's what i'm thinking of doing. Tell me what you think this. Why not have the investors onstage and the pictures instead of having the microphone that they normally use on stage. Don't they use their phone connected to their club. House account log another clubhouse account they plug in their phone maybe via earbuds and leave the mic. Open you know and the phone will be there. Microphone and then. I'll have a phone back at the sound desk. You know and that will be hearing everything and non anybody can be in clubhouse watching a clubhouse interview with speakers on stage that is actually in fact real speakers on unreal stage and so you basically could do a simulcast and three medium. So you've got in person video which you're doing already and then basically just piping that into clubhouse simultaneously right make the clubhouse event for all the club houses and then your audience could choose whatever's more convenient for them and i can imagine i liked to go out and run maybe listened to clubhouse maybe listened to your event Through clubhouse is opposed to being tethered to some streaming videos service. yeah. I think that is the surprise. One of the many surprising Kind of lists capabilities that make clubhouse You know they really make it very easy to jump in and out and feel like very low commitment and allows you to keep this very exploring mindset so that you don't feel overly invested into any particular conversation in unless you choose to and where if you sit down and listen to a podcast you start to feel invested in it right. You almost feel. Like i gotta finish this damn by after there. That's right and all you listeners. Out there definitely fanned. Especially yes. So i mean but that's one of the weird differences that it's a psychological thing isn't it it's like abilene your club. I don't have to finish this. I have. I can jump out if it gets boring and i won't feel like at all like i miss. You know needed to feel bad about that. So it's there's a bunch of weird little human psychology tricks that are happening when you you know this idea of an essence in many ways it is tech conference clubhouse it's a lot of different stages in the idea very big conference every september with multiple stages and dozens of panels going on simultaneously. That's what clubhouses twenty four hours. A day seven days a week with some of the best speakers in the tech world. You know if you were to try and go to a conference with elon. Musk and marc andriessen and zach and drew from dropbox and on and on that would be one of the best tech conferences. Going on anywhere right so it would. It would not be cheap and you might not get a seat to sit in when they're on stage and you know and and and and but i'm getting an incredible amount of value out of clubhouse in that way and it functions like an never ending tech conference you know yeah that's created magical that way. I like that analogy to. It almost reminds me of like all things. D or The the recode conference when they would get all the top people but it was limited to just a couple of thousand attendees and it was like eight to ten thousand. Tickets was yes well. They got bigger used to go Because when i was going they were in san diego. As in fact jason and i is. That's where we launched the the malo brand at all things d six. Where when steve jobs and bill gates were on stage together live for the last time and That's magical that's a. You can watch that you video. My god. that's one of texts. Special moments costs. amazing We what a great conversation. I can tell you that the one of the things that you don't notice when you're watching that video The audiences in tears for the second half of it and i was sitting next to her. It's very vip event. Nearly everybody in the audience. Is you know notable right and and there's some incredible vip's in the audience right and for the second half of that for the last quarter of it. 'cause it was like an hour long so for like the last fifteen minutes. There was very few dry is in that room. I remember myself. I i was. It's it's it's an amazing interview. I think it's one of the great ones. But let's get back to clubhouse so i see you on a lot of stages so tell me how you use mostly going into rooms where you're you're in stages i've seen you in ones which are nordics focus. In fact i jumped into one. I think i was. The only non person in there was actually really fun for me to get that or you. Are there other other places where you're just like you're sitting in the audience and you're just absorbing what's going on i look at i mean for me. I look at the names of the rooms. I look for the one. That seems the most interesting Jump in there and or if there's a friend of mine in the room even if it's not interesting i give them the benefit of the doubt that you know. Well maybe it's interesting. They know something. I don't you know and that happens sometimes for sure. And then if i if i feel i've got something to contribute. I raised my hand. You know and and try and get up on stage and share i to me. I think that's a big part of it is having a unique point to raise on the topic And because i'm when you know going back to my events at my events i'm the moderator at my events right and have speakers so i understand the moderators role better than they do. Most of the time. Because i've been doing it for ten years right. You know so if if there's an audience member who's got a really good point you know that's great if they have if they some audience members have terrible points and that's bad but if i'm empathizing with the moderator in the speakers and if i have a question that i think will be added to the conversation. I know it's helping everyone in that whole room. So i don't hesitate to think while i'll sit and listen. Pay attention com. Also googling while they're talking about whatever they're talking about learning in real time and try and come up with the most value added question. I can come up with or point of you know. Maybe i know something. They don't and i can add a little more context to the conversation or i just bring a question and i think from my from my position. It's a little easier to do that. Because i have some such varied interests by being a conference organizer. I'd get exposed to a lot of different topics and the cutting edge of a lot of different topics. But i'm also an american who lives in asia and works in europe so i have a sort of pan global perspective that i can. I can bring you know the asian point to any non asian room and the nordic point to any non nordic room and etcetera. So i find it quite easy to bring up good points and then generally i find that that gets a lot of reaction from people in the room you know and i it's for me. It's fun because it's related to my normal work anyways hosting events and and in some ways if the future of events so I'm watching it very carefully and It's i find fascinating. Well this is a great lesson for people who are new to clubhouse or actually people who've been on for a while that if you think about serving the room and not serving yourself helping out the moderator helping out the experts. They're driving the conversation forward. You're going to get brought up on stage a lot. But i've moderated a number of rooms and you quickly realize the people who are just gonna come up in order to preen and to hopefully get some airtime is opposed is opposed to actually contribute to the conversation. And there's some people who are great right some rooms and they want to be in there. It's a different topic a different room and they wanna be on stage like they are in these other rooms and they shouldn't be they have to understand that in some places they're going to be a great contributor and other places they should listen and maybe a few weeks from now a contributor but today they might not be right okay so is calm and i was gonna say some questions are very selfish. You know it's just like i don't know anything. Can somebody help me like i. Don't come with those questions. You know what i mean. Come with like hey you said this and i just googled it in turns out This what about this element that you seem to have avoided. Is there a reason. You're avoiding that and or does this journalist. I'm reading online. Have it wrong you know. And and what it does is that in introduces drama into the conversation. Because now it's like. I'm putting that the speaker in the hot seat for a second in a way that i'm expecting them to get out of like i'm i'm expecting to be like show their real expertise like actually that journalists You know we spoke two weeks ago in you know. And here's why they have that perspective. And here's why i have this perspective and baba and it and it just makes the conversation stronger but the the real magic in that moment is when i put that person on for a second and the audience gasps silently. And they're like oh shit. Somebody's calling out this speaker you know. And it's like shits about to get real you know and I like that that slight friendly confrontation you know. Done with a handout. I'm not trying to hurt anybody. I like the some people try and do their rooms like oprah. Right matter of fact. I would say by default most Moderators i default. Just a take the oprah approach of just. We're going to be very kind to everybody. No one's going to interrupt anybody else and then there was this process. And you're not gonna you know who's next. Okay i'm bringing them up and thank you for that contribution and you know it's like it's worse than npr a lot of times. And then. i like bill maher. You know politically incorrect. Where some we don't wait for necessarily for one person to come to the complete end of their statement like i. I know when you're winding down your point. I know where to enter where it's not rude and it keeps the energy level up and like you and i are doing on this talk now right right there. You just did it right there. You're just you know we don't have to have this written like house of lords Okay five minutes to the speaker go. You know it's not like The us congress. You know like madam speaker I i i the rest of my time to the next speaker. We don't need that. So okay well let me let me ask you. One final question is gone. Final question so in terms of your business you talked about. You could actually run the conference through simultaneously clubhouse they would give you more reach. Maybe create more convenience and flexibility for your audience. All really great things. Is there anything else from your business standpoint that you found valuable clubhouse so far. Yeah oh my god as a conference organizer. I'm an and really any business. I think this applies to support anyone listening. Go into the rooms that are relevant to your business. in my case. It's experts on tech topics. I want experts on a i machine learning and self driving cars on green tech food tech etc. I go into those rooms. I listened to who the real experts are. I look at their bios. I get direct. Con- you know i now and even better as a conference organizer in twenty twenty twenty twenty one. You know. it's very easy. Normally my job is. I have to find the experts via twitter. Which is not easy. Because if you're being good at tweeting does not mean you're a good speaker and vice versa. Clubhouse i can hear them how they speak how they manage the conversation. And i'm it's it's it's the new challenges finding the women and black americans. Latino americans a all of the colors of the rainbow all you know. Every i need to get a very diverse set of perspectives on stage. Right so clubhouses amazing for that. Because i can go into the room. I can see. You know the demographics in the room. If i see you know some speakers Female i can click on her right away. Her bio gets and speak to her through twitter. I have found countless speakers. This way i find a dozen speakers every day doing that right intimating for me. It's invaluable that would normally take me so much work that i do it. The old way was just like you. Just beg your friends and your email list. Does anyone know a great speaker on these topics. And now my god i mean. Today i found the the gold mine of ethics The people who the ethics ai. People you know who calibrate the algorithm does folks. Yeah yeah it was his his room. In fact yeah he had been tastic. Panel going of a very diverse panel. Everyone on that was fantastic. And you know that. Just what a beautiful thing. So i think the valuable point for everyone listening if you were into in fact i mean i separately just because i can use my own example. Again resort in thailand. Where am here and it's a fully solar-powered resort. So there's there's lots of conversations that come there was a conversation. Today was fantastic bellagio Being a sovereign citizen and how sovereign citizens are gonna be all did you. Did you hear that one. That was fantastic. So i did. It was it was very interesting. I don't agree with have said. But i think it's fascinating. He broke the. They boosted the room. Up to seven thousand people by the end of that. It's a new Room room record so that broke off into splinter rooms at sometimes the good conversations do and you know there's tons of people who are it. Got their wheels spinning. I'm like i'm on my. I have a fully off grid my own water my own food. My own energy resort. And i'm guiquan of gigabit internet. Come on over you know. Let's turn this into a geek. Utopia and i am now building up a huge demand. People who want to come here. So if if if i can service both of my two very very different businesses you know my resort and my grandparents then imagine anyone could do the same because everyone falls somewhere in between those two whether you're selling cars or whatever you know you're gonna be able to find although i don't encourage people going in there utterly focused on trying to sell cars to people or selling anything really. I mean. Come out with the right context. Beat you take it. You'll probably do it wrong first. Time then learn how to figure out the subtleties of how to do it. And then i'll give you an example. What i do with the speakers if i find a really good speaker i'll say hey by the way you know i have this resort down here. You're welcome to come as my guest. You know which i do. I genuinely mean that. I would love to come. Stay here as my guest next thing. You know the whole rooms clicking on my bio to find out link you know so that's just the the nuances of how to promote your interests in clubhouse you know your bio is a very big part of it but how you reference your bio is another you have to do it subtly if you do it too abrasive guys just trying to sell stuff so well this is gold clubhouse gold for our listeners here how to get the most out of the platform tyler. How can the listeners. Learn more about what you're doing and maybe check out your next meet up. Yeah the meet up. And my events are always at stockholm. Tech and in stockholm. We we abbreviate it. S t h m as every stockholmer nose and stockholm tech dot com. I always have a new event coming. their monthly and now they're virtual you can join those and then they lie as you hinted yeah the idea is to keep them virtual even once we go back to doing them. Live and then Maybe we'll even have some of the guests be live and virtual simultaneously. You could the benefit of clubhouse could invite a speaker to appear in clubhouse and then Maybe someday we'll even have a hologram projection of having the perfect all right. I did that you did. Hey thanks so much for your time. Today cheers adrienne afraid to us. Welcome to the voice by podcast. Okay so we've been out a couple of clubhouse stages together we've interacted a little bit and then we. We had some opportunity to exchange messages on twitter as well. So this is one of the serendipitous moments of clubhouse that it brings people together particularly at a time when most of us aren't getting together places like bubble world congress which would be happening right about now. I think normally So as you don't we're just talking about clubhouse a little bit. I'm really interested. I i maybe to start out. When did you first join clubhouse. And what was your first experience like when you just got on your initial impressions. So i need to check that. That is a tricky question. So i joined house on twenty seven december. An was truly a friend of mine. He into like no blogger from new york. And and i never i was able to be with him in the same room that is he. He didn't he wasn't able to to create like this. Create my welcome room. But i did. A new hukou Is you know a ritual. Welcome ron said. I think it was like a ten second window or something like that is very fast. I was able to do some on from from people and that the way they're rival up was like in a in a very. I find a little weird this thing. putting your number in like you know getting the code and then download and so is interesting. The fact that there is like no may walk. Front in enough for me was like now. Now make this entire thing about like an old. Should i give my number not But other than that I answering rooms. And maybe i did what everybody did on those times in december like no follow. Start falling people so you could see rooms nine. I took that can all too extreme. I reached my limit Four weeks ago. So i can hardly anybody anymore so i had like two thousand five hundred like i spent night leading people so i can you know at least affect on finding new people today that i wanna follow. I could but it it it also like. Have this serendipity of like you know you are creating your content for me is important because i can. Sometimes you so much like a nice in depressed during the on any other things that affect that you can allow to create a trick rate very badly in the beginning so i'm starting together like no little better. Yeah that's great okay. So that's great. When i started following people that's makes a lot of sense. So what did you find. That was most interesting to you early on. Did you find rooms with people that you knew. They were talking or people. You didn't know that were covering topics that were of interest to you I i thought. I thought about like you know using as a radio insane different contents and go like you know in checking out loud. How people were using the toes in different ways so so i saw an audition for wisdom of us. I thought like just just chupin in n. Out of from rose. I saw people like you know Shark tank stitching or dad. People like doing different things. I have been organizing events for the past five years more. Centralizing is that science is called like beers. So this part of like you know cooperating events. In dynamics of events i have been saying quite a lot so and since i'm like no early into the impact investing arena. Everybody's learning to that. So my first idea was to create to learn from other acting jobs so i pretty much like search. Impacting vasic solid photo for the phone. Everybody dan i create my first room. I thank in in the second or toward weights. So i have like seven rooms seven weeks. I have been in rome in fact investing but again what i tried to do is connect with people that i already knew if they were not in the i try to bring them to the and and bring people that i knew that i was falling back. Investing petrole add on into that. So i think going to have like a little is year But the their idea so with those rooms from me was to learn about in fact investing in having you know startups also coming up corporations and in more like in in in a very open manner and after some of the people that So you know. Investors from oslo from berlin from a london the last one from the west so the variety of investors all talking into impact investing so. I tried to narrow down light. My my even like my bio very simple. It has like wet investing. No emojis. no three pages. And i just found out. There is like Aai that can like you know Do you bios front for club house. They venture those things are really yet in outer generated can make crave app. Things like crazy. You know just crazy bios and i tried to go very simple on that and i i also like it is also feel like out who you bring in who can tackle into that because it is a very open arena sao. If you don't try to narrow yourself is used as collateral protection also ended up to be narrow on that. I i do other things. But i i don't put running i don't vote is doesn't for me doesn't make sense. Yeah no. I understand so so this is interesting. So you're an impact investor. What she you tell the listeners. What an impact investor is in your mission around impact investing. So they'll have that context so they the idea we are doing impact investing and again we are doing A learning process here so our fund is a fund that is like towards investing in areas. That we think is is is is solving a biggest problems so we are approaching a attack Healthcare mar like into like additional health and Also sustainability sustainability to carry for air water. All the things we guiding like industrial processes sowing the industries and the new area. That i'm running roared these days. It's like social tack or humanity and the idea is to invest in it starts out from the precedes you know a stage Our focus focuses 'europe in even more focusing portugal and spain. Where i have a bigger network. And we we have a a network of the spurs that will will hold hands we very hands on startups to carry them through the seed series. So we will precede in week follow on some some of the siege and then we do like a and probably we can leave in. The series are in the series. We we are like that. I investors that will help creating the company helping on on like no tackle customers and are there so is your objective it using clubhouse to find new startups that you can invest in to encourage people to found businesses in these areas has to educate to to connect with venture capitalists who might be participate in the funding of of your portfolio as they hit that a and b round phase correct. So so the idea is to some up into you. Know anything that is related to the aca system. Solid ideas in some way Trying to do is is to help. Even founders investors or corporations to collaborate in and tried to support what is call like the impact that could system and the hope is like the share stories fraternities and in some way with could help or inspire. Anyone that is in the room on creating the next. You know you know start off of what we perceived as days as i can some way technology bring breida's into this crime. Climate crisis and technology will be the ones that will take us out so that there is like they got you know a agenda that exists around the impact investing and that. I'm more technology driven because of my background. So non They start up needs to be like you know one hundred percent commitment to gies or yesterday's or anything like that but while we can help this startup is to to see you know what. Kpi's they can they can go through what is called like the the changed path and like fine Water day impact. They're having in quantified that in fact because like s soon as they start like try tracing data impact the better will be on on the history in while are trying to do now for the next week is like to hold a more narrow down rooms. So we're going to narrow for ask the g so we can know poverty. So we have like investors corporations in startups. They are into nope opportunity. Because we sometimes in israel's it was great to get an introduction inside the clubhouse is a good like stand you know a to broader view and people were like you know questioning why did sustainability. What is an and. I think that there that there is other rooms. Don't act and reporting and and doing a more broader view but we are trying to achieve. This is maybe be more effective on the rooms. Got it so so daring the focus or the scope of the room so this does topical discussions are are more on point. I it has it been successful. You've been doing this for six weeks. Now i guess do you. Do you feel like it's been a good use of time. If made the connections that are useful if you found an investment any of those types of things or as a to still too early to tell now for me was amazing because i can cannot even getting you know ananta so the one of the biggest baggage fund in in in europe like you know in the room sharing their expertise. I think that that was unique. Things that you could have an income house. Just give you this very like friction last like you know a way of getting people on board in in and being open to share so their results for me personally is is having very positive We're gonna start next week with his more focus at we. Hope is gonna work. I'm not gonna say that that it will be like hundred work we we. We are having like an open question. Areas of people can apply We're going to have the help of like no shifted. That is like no the depressed from from financial times in startups in your south I'm casting hal. Because i always not easy to create events and diane even sometimes can feel like you know someone would feel that you know they. They need to talk. Because there's a start up is the best one that exists. I can while we're trying to do is much more share space. Diana come houses not an end. You go rhino club house Tweeter you go lincoln and there you go you may politics through that is like the the different steps to go through and as Before it actually got a you know ready to start apps that i received some tax and that we we are analyzing couple of them So so i'm seeing it as a positive to outstanding. Okay well this has been great. How can the listeners. Learn more about what you're doing. Keep track of your efforts either on clubhouse or your business in the real world. I'm very tweeter addicted so And i use my twitter as a note fed so yesterday i was listening ganja and you can see all these live from ghana events of traceability south tweeter used as display night. My deums are opened in is if for me like the best buy into people's might think chaos but you can also go in. My lincoln might same name and zadie unafraid. Lincolnian has wet. Everybody knows than run. I but i do have a problem. Trading that is. I can five hundred. You know people there waiting for me to get a I'm a little better link but big twitter. Yes yes because my notepad is you know how i track my day though. That's great if you had a phrase it's thank you so much for share your thoughts today. I appreciate you spending some time with us. Okay thank you. Okay voiced by nation. I hope you learned a lot today. I'm brechin sela hosted the voice about podcast you can follow me on the twitter and in clubhouse labral casella zella. We have a conversational innovative show at three. Pm eastern standard time and conversational a happy hour at the same time on friday three pm eastern standard time. Stop by and check it out. If you're lurking around the clubhouse i recommend you also check out voiced by podcast episode one ninety five one ninety-six for more information on social audio and in an upcoming episode will return to this topic with three more interviews of clubhouse users. You're going to like that. Clubhouse is our first model of social audio. There will be more to come. Hopefully these interviews service some cultural anthropology as we feel out this new mash up of conversational interaction. Thanks go out today to our sponsor voice flow. thank you so much for sponsoring independent. Media lake voiced by podcast. Voice blows the biggest no code conversational design and development platform enables us build entire voice experiences. Just do the design and build elsewhere or mix and match components with the fee to. Tk check it out at voice flow dot com. That's voice flow dot com until the next show which will be just a few days enjoy our conversations wherever they may occur bye bye.

Monique howard google stockholm tyler crowley adrian afraid brechin sela tyler jeremiah yang kathy pearl texas beach necas Crowley tyler adriana rightous adriana muster ventures deep impact ventures Crowley adriana francis brett fridge europe stockholm tech Barris
1.8.19 LIVE from CES: Clark discusses self-driving cars, delivery robots, healthcare advancements, and more!

Clark Howard Show

1:06:20 hr | 2 years ago

1.8.19 LIVE from CES: Clark discusses self-driving cars, delivery robots, healthcare advancements, and more!

"I'm so excited to welcome. You to a special edition of the Clark Howard show is we broadcast to you from Las Vegas ninth year at the consumer electronic show. That's what used to be called. Now, they like it to be called c e s it's the world's largest trade show mandatory cap of hundred seventy five thousand attendees than you take all the periphery people in the couple of hundred thousands of people here in Las Vegas as exhibitors worldwide, come to Las Vegas to show their ideas of how to make life easier at the same time make themselves some money the categories that things are in our changing over the years as an example. And I'll talk about this and our broadcast either today or tomorrow, motive sector didn't even exist. When I first started. Coming to this show. And now is a huge part of it is vehicles that you buy today where they run on gasoline or diesel or some form of hybrid or electric, they are rolling computers, and the thing on with automobiles are huge changes and how they operate and I'll talk about that more later. There's a lot of buzz about five G, but five G is something that is coming into your life in ways that we can't even grasp from the most basic standpoint what five G does is. It allows wireless networks Dopp rate at much faster speeds with much greater coverage than you might have with wired home internet connection from the cable company or the phone company. But it's much more than that. Now on talk about that later when? I wanna talk about right now is something that is. I pop ING, and I've got to bring it alive to you on the radio dial. And that is the new televisions? Oh my goodness. Now, what's going on with TV at sea switz- being shown here is so startling and the breakthroughs in the technology. So extreme that it's kind of like using supersonic to commute to work because the television and movies being shot, the sports programming being shown aren't ready for the hardware. That's now available and on display to be available later this year in the television area. But what's coming is? Is resolutions for TV's that feel like you're looking through a pain of glass instead of watching the screen, you watch right now a lot of buzz here about eight K, which is funny because you think about television's most people almost everything you watch is in HD, even though you might have bought a four K television. If you bought a TV in the last thirty six months, the four K TV sits there just. Waiting just warning that opportunity to show you what four K looks like, but there's very little programming. The most the programming available in four K is either from Amazon prime or it's from net flicks with net flicks. Do you have to pay a little bit extra each month to be able to watch the four Cape Ideo and the picture, particularly with certain kinds of action venture and things that show scenery unbelievable in four K. But most everything I'm saying here is double that the eight k televisions. The screen sizes getting larger and larger and larger imagine a television screen that takes up most of the wall. They you watch TV on now if you've ever had a projection TV. With movie screen and like a theater room in your home. Imagine instead of that the actual TV being that size. And that's not something that's going to be only for people who have really fat wallet's right now, it will be but within roughly about thirty months. So when we look at Christmas season would that be twenty twenty one you're going to see these massive screen televisions that are widely available and accessible from a price standpoint. I mean think about what's happened with the seventy five inch screen sizes when seventy five inch screens were first being shown here at C S. Guess I was three years ago. The cost of those TV's were more than buying a European luxury car and now you can buy them when they go on sale. His lowest seven hundred ninety nine dollars for seventy five inch TV. So now, we're saying the price points compress for over eighty screens with magnificent pictures, but what I'm seeing here or screens over two hundred inches try to picture that in your living room or a den where you're totally immersed in the video content and over time the resolution that will be available to you from streaming services likely not from cable providers or from satellite. But from streaming services will be able to take advantage of the capabilities that these new screens are appearing with. But here's my strategy for twenty nineteen for buying TV. Let people who just have to have the latest greatest be. The beta testers for all these phenomenal new televisions like one that is available here that rolls up that acts like almost like piece of poster board. I guess and so it comes out of a retract her thing and goes up and becomes a solid shape. Informs who you to be able to watch when you're done watching TV, you press a button on the remote. And that thing retracts and disappears. So let people who have too much money by stuff like that. Right people who have to be the first one paid the ridiculous amount of money for that in people who have to have a two hundred inch screen this year by that for. Obscene amount of money for you and me this year with television in for me. It's all about football being able to watch football game on a magnificent large screen, the sweet spot with TV's the average TV in the states that people have is around fifty inches is what they're buying now. But the real deals on TV's or fifty five inch sixty five inch and seventy five inch screens and the price points for the fifty five's is you saw over black Friday dropped as low as two hundred dollars today routinely around three hundred dollars the change that you're going to see with the next wave of TV's coming out in the spring is that the quality of the picture on those screens at extremely low prices is going to be so much better. And so you're going to be looking at. Maybe three hundred four the lead price on the fifty five five fifty on the sixty five inch TV's and the cheapest of the seventy five's again right at eight hundred dollars. So when you look at what I see here at the show, I see the future, and I see what's coming with video. And for most people what's coming is not what's relevant to your wallet today. But because that stuff is coming the sweet spots, a fifty five sixty five seventy five or the ones that are the approachable prices all available at under a thousand dollars on sale. But something else, do, you know, all the TV's when you go into an electronic store, they talk about being connected, and that's so key because subscriptions to cable providers and to satellite. Light going down down down for years. There's been a lot of talk about court cutting. We're past talk. Now, it's happening. So when you look at buying TV you wanna make the platform for watching streaming the easiest it can be and on that score. I have a big bias for Roku, roughly a fourth of TV's. You buy today have Roku built it. You can buy a separate Roku device, but I can tell you it works much better than the interface. That Samsung offers on its connected TV's video off on their the Google Chrome caste system. None of those are as easy to use or as well thought out as Roku, and as you're looking at TV's look for the Roku built in. Because if you ready to dump your cable or satellite subscription and go to lower. Television. You're going to find that the transitions the smoothest and easiest if you go to Roku versus any of the other platforms that are available now at some point people will come up with other great platform, a lot of people like the Amazon fire stick for TV, the Amazon fire system built into a TV, and it is a very workable system. But again, my preference is for the Roku you'll have to make your own decision. The changes coming this year. With streaming products is Disney having specialized programming available to you. If you really into the Disney stuff and ESPN finally making a clean break with the cable and satellite providers and offering standalone ESPN if you. Choose not to be with satellite or cable, so satellite and cable, you're going to find or going to push their prices up heavily on people who remain incumbents doing business watching TV the old way with cable or satellite is time for our roving reporter also known as our executive producer Kim. Droves who wanders the four it CS looking for smaller companies inventors they'd have come up with that. No one else has been able really to this point to bring market in a way, that'll make you happy or benefit your life succumb. What have you found right now? Hey car on the floor with Carina. She is with link link is L Y N Q. And I love this device. Can you tell us about it? Sure. So link is a people compass is lousy to find equal anywhere in the world without cell phone surveys sending for structure whatsoever. Say connects you're more devices, and then I find each other your friends anywhere in the world and anywhere in the world. This is designed for like, maybe like a music festival or something like that. Like my cell. Phone's not working, but I know my friends are out there. How does it actually navigate to them? You just actually pointed out to use case. Right. So like for festivals or ski resorts Wynn. You are key. It's. Anywhere. We need to find your family and friends ride. You kinda like want the group to keep each other together, so linked Wade works just basically bear toward more together. I can have up to twelve devices shelf people in your party, and then it's very intuitive. It shows you a narrow and distance. Right. Someone else in your group. That's it. I just follow the Aerojet speaker when you got closer. So it's super into it. If to find out also there's one button interface. So you literally you only need to scrawl through the people in your party to find where everybody else's instances radio, can you physically describe this for listeners? So it's like an h shape or being shaped Caribbean. It's it's vertically. So he kinda like flip it on the outside of your person, your gear and your clothes. It's meant to be where outside right? So that you can just flip it up, and it's a very quick reference to someone else in your groups. You can literally be skiing super fast, and you can look at the screen, and it tells you where your friends are. He has a customer and right here that see it's vertically. Building this ways that the radio waves propagate the best win sparkley. And what else there's a sunlight readable screen? So, you know in where you like super easy to reference I also made for may be used gloves. So the reason for the form factor ovo Carribean, obviously. 'cause like, you know, it's modular can use it everywhere. The, you know, very easy to use or you know, in like, really harsh environments like climbing Kilimanjaro or skiing varies. It's us absolutely killer. Can you tell me how much you think it's going to cost for people to two or nine? And is it readily available? We did a pre-sale sold one point six million while to twenty thousand units in we are just getting ready to ship, and yeah, it's our first addition of our technology and now looking forward to putting heads of customers release. Well, congratulations, and where can people go if they wanna learn more link me dot com. All right Clark. No one great use. Of link would be right here at C S, considering they don't have WI fi. And sometimes sell is spotty. It would be really cool to be able to find you. If you are on the show floor, and we weren't together. You know, you're so right. We can never find each other c- because it's impossible so magnificently large. And so the cell phones never seem to work. And I think about how often 'cause I loved to snow ski that I can't find the other folks, and my party, and this is such a neat way to be able to do it. Also think about the uses if people are on a wilderness height and people get lost. This could be a huge safety thing that could be the difference between somebody being stranded in the wilderness danger and being found safe Kim. Thank you. I can't wait to hear your next segment. It's great to have you here on the Clark Howard show where it's all about you learning ways. To keep more of what you make. But this is a special edition of the Clark Howard show, our ninth year on the floor of SIA sporty known is the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, the world's largest trade show each year, and I've seen how what the focus is on changes over the years and this year, the top focus. CBS is on something that I looked to earlier and also back in December. And that is five G five G is terribly misunderstood over the next several months, but is going to change so much about how our lives work day to day. And so I want to explain how this fits in your life and start with something that was a real unforced error from AT and T AT and T for some reason the marketing brainiacs. There are relabelling. A lot of the cell phones. They have with a five gene logo, even though they're not five, gene. And it's going to confuse you as to what this is all about. So I want you to know that g is is a huge change in how you're able. To connect. And how so much of what is around us in life is able to be always on always connected. It is a new wireless technology that people are spending around the world trillions of dollars on. And what it will do is it will allow networks to run wirelessly at a massive speed and with far more capacity than what exists today, we will have billions and billions and billions of devices of all shapes and sizes and forms that will be connected to these five G networks. Ultimately, probably you'll see this in a meaningful way in twenty twenty. You'll be able to have an always on home internet connection that will be wireless that will move at. Perhaps one hundred times the speed of what you have right now from a cable company or a phone company for internet in your home, but it will travel with you in speaking of travel five G is going to make what are known as smart cities available. Where is an example, let's say an emergency vehicles coming down the road. And one of the problems are these mid intersection accidents when an ambulance a police officer fire truck is trying to get to someone provide help or get someone in the case of an ambulance to a hospital. Well with this five G technology dash of your car or on your phone that will tell you. There's an emergency vehicle coming which direction it's coming from. And in some smart cities cities that adopt. The technology. The red light will turn green instantly for the emergency v. Vehicle clearing. The intersection for them to go through. There are so many different ways and uses that five G will be available to you including smartphones. And some are here at CSL Las Vegas showing five G smartphones that are ready to run at ultra ultra ultra high-speed with no latency. Meaning that if you put in on an app for the information on an app to present itself or you go on the chrome browser browser, whatever. And you wanna see something it will represent before your eyes? Can register that the information is there, but it's way beyond that. Because what I've been seeing at the the first two days, I've seen exhibitors is so many different devices that are designed from the ground up to operate on ultrafast wireless. So that. You can do so many different functions in your life. So many different things that will improve your life and one of the areas that is ready to take advantage of it or very approachable very easy to use direct to consumer health and wellness devices of all different time types that will make an enormous difference in your life, an example. So there are a number of things being shown here that are designed to deal with the silent killer strokes. You know, the problem with strokes so often by the time the damage is done, and maybe irreversible. You didn't have symptoms. It was symptomless till bam. It happened. Well, because of this intersection of ultrafast, wireless networks and various monitoring devices, you will no way or the the point of no return that all the symptoms are lining up under the surface leading to stroke. Just one example where the ability to do real time medical monitoring makes a difference. Another one how about with diabetes. There are any of number of devices that will take advantage of these networks that will allow for real time monitoring of your blood sugar level for diabetics no pinprick necessary. And these electronic devices are able to monitor real-time many of these devices once. The medical industry catches up because this is one of the craziest things about ceus is that the electron IX folks are light years ahead of the way mainstream medical practice operates in the United States. So they are they are developing all these diagnostic tools that can be made available to your doctor, but in so many medical practices. They're not set up yet to receive the information. Hey, what's involved is? You'll see something that says you're having a problem that may be leading to a stroke or you'll have something with diabetes or even number of other medical conditions, and you have to today pick up the phone and call a doctor's office who then will maybe put you on with the nurse and on like that the link that's missing right now, and we're mainstream medical practice is going to have to. Up is this idea of the information is now going to be in the hands of you as a consumer the medical practices are going to have to be able to connect to that and be willing to modify their practices. So they get that information real time because what we're looking towards is instead of having to men people prevent that in the first place prevention so much better than having to do here. Roic work in an operating room or whatever to try to save somebody's life instead to have early warning of various medical conditions. And that's where all this ties together is just one example of where the five G networks coming live and bits and pieces this year coming live in big ways in twenty twenty. Or going to improve people's life spans and their health one other thing, I was fascinated by does not require any of this is there is one of the large. Companies that make blood pressure cuffs his developed smartwatch. That the watch itself will take continuous. And apparently a one hundred percent accurate blood pressure, readings all you do raise your hand to heart level and in just a couple of seconds. It gets a completely accurate health reading. If your doctor is a quip to receive that information, it will transmit to your doctor if there's a bad reading, otherwise the information good and bad tracks on an app to your smartphone. When you go to see your doctor, you're able to show him or her your pattern with your blood pressure instead of them taking just a snap reading when you're in an office. They're able to see that continually just one area where the way medicine works is going. Through a radical transformation because of the breakthroughs of wearables and also the high speed networks that are coming available with the information tracked on your Android or I phone and the things that people show. It's so weird. Do you know what the impossible burger is? It has been a huge hit around the country. It is a real traditional red meat eater. But if I go to a restaurant and they haven't impossible burger, I actually like it better than a traditional beefburger. And so eliminates the health risk of red meat and possible merger is showing impossible burger two point. Oh, I didn't get to have sample because people were surrounded around it like these Honey, but they have been able to use deep computer analysis. Deep data. To develop a better nine Berger. Tom is with us on the Clark Howard show. Tom. You have a question for me about CAS is that right? Right clark. I went to see of Hugh years ago, and we snuck in on while they were study at around and then and military friends are coming back to Vegas. And after I heard when years shows, I said is some quite they would acquaint to be allowing the public to come in one day or something of that nature, and right, friends and different media thought that they had with say that expertise taste. So I talked to update I was station. What are one of your broadcast about opening up the public and I'm here in bay? So it's a great question you're asking, and I asked one of the folks with the consumer Technology Association about that two days ago, and they have no plans. And that's all they said, no plans to make any part of CIA's available to the general public that they have trouble just already turning so many tens of thousands of people away from the electron IX industry who can't get in. So unfortunately, for now, they're not opening it up to the general public. And so you're not going to be able to come in, except I love that that you figured out how to sneak in one time that was very impressive that you were able to do that with all the security here. I landed when I got there. I would immediately over to one of these TV TES. ES location, and whether they give out the badges so I've decided to stick around and hold the door for them and seasonable going in. So that was fun. You know, it's huge, and I wear one of those fitness trackers where I track how many steps that. I walk every day. And at see us, I walk as many as thirty thousand steps in a single day because the amount of territory, this covers is the world's largest straight show is absolutely amazing. I will do the best I can to bring you up to date on everything going on. But if you're interested in specific breakthroughs product categories and the rest, the tech bloggers are all over the Las Vegas convention center and the out facilities as well shooting. Video putting updates putting up articles about the latest greatest new items that they believe are great. And we will do the best. We can to bring you up to date as well with audio and video of the newest latest greatest. Stuff here in Las Vegas at the world's largest trade show CAS it's time to check in with Kim our producer extraordinaire, who at C E S wanders the floor for days looking for really really cool ideas excite her and she believes may benefit your life or just sound really cool to you Kim. What you got? I clark. I'm here with Curtis is with up. No, did I say that. Right. That sounds right. Up knows his Greek for sleep this sleep product. What I've read about it. It can help you. If you're snore. Can teach you to stop. How does that work? So we're solving the number one problem in bedrooms today, we silence, your spouse, and the way it works is it looks just like an eye mask that you'd wear to blackout white, and it does block out light. But your phone listens for your snoring, and we have a little machine learning. Algorithm running and if it hears snoring than it checked if you're on your back if you're. On your back and gently vibrate you? So that you turn over on your side and that helps reduce snoring. If you still snoring than it starts to increase your explanation pressure at so that inflates your nasal cavity inflates, you throats and even your lungs and with that inflation than the vibration can't happen elaborate on that for me on a little bit about how it increases the pressure. Yeah. The as you breathe out a valve closes. So it'd be almost like holding your nose in trying to read out your nose, and when you breathe in then it opens, and you can breathe in completely. And so it's only on the exhibition that you have the pressure which then increases the the dilate cheer Airways. Amazing. And how has it done with testing? That's done great my wife, let me sleep in the room without it. Good. I'm glad to people's marriages down. Well, we are very price center program. Do you know how much it's gonna cost or Ps one hundred seventy nine dollars and we've got five hundred units out in a field. It's available now on indie. Gogo and so you can get shipped immediately. If people wanna learn more, where do they go? They would go to H UP and OS dot com. Perfect. Thank you so much. So what do you think about that Noreen is a really really big deal for people? I don't have a snore in my life. But I know a lot of people do. Yeah. Well, how about me as a snow her? I think some point if I don't deal with it lanes going to kick me out of the house. So this is something that I'm really intrigued by and going to go buy and try it at the show myself. So Kim thank you for solving my own personal problems on the floor of CIA's. It's great to welcome you to the Clark Howard show where we have an unusual day for you. We're broadcasting for the ninth consecutive year at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas now called CAS for some odd reason instead of consumer electronic show, but it is the world's largest trade show each year with a mandatory cap of attendees that somewhere around one hundred eighty thousand people. It's like a city in itself. And it gives me a chance each year to see what's happening with the electron IX world, and how it's going to influence your life. What products are coming? That are going to be available for you in weeks or months. What trends are there that are going to change how your life works, and I have a great privilege to have with me. Ashley a scatter. Who is your job was seen it? You are the chief eloquent senior editor senior editor host couple shows on scene it, and then now general technology those east I love coming to this show. And so you, and I have this Keith fest before we go on the air talking about all the things that we got more and more excited about talking about him and other people would look at us and think what losers. We are. I know they're like nerds. Hey, hey, nerds, calm down. But we have seen this year already with the with only the pre stuff going on the real actions starting today to me a real inflection point that last three years. It seemed like there were only incremental changes in this year. Feels like this is a breakthrough year where there are a lot of things that have been talked about that are actually going to happen that are going to directly improve people's lives. Yeah. This the big theme of the year is seasoning of five G. Right. So everybody's talking about five G all gonna have this beautiful utopian world in which we're all connected all the time, and our cars are gonna hit and everything's connected. But at the like, but no one has announced like products. So I think we've gotten maybe one product maybe a phone from Verizon that's five G. So it's slow going, but we'll get there. We always do another thing. Don't even have a four K TV yet. But we got eight k now, and so everybody's talking about these beautiful eight KTV's some of them are role. -able LG has this wallpaper TV that can get down into it. Rolls into a box, basically. So I told them you should put a lock on it like a like a tech lock of an Apso that way if your kids misbehave, and you're like just literally taking the TV away. It's got like I'm putting it in the box. And you don't get it back becomes a piece of furniture. It does. Yeah. Exactly. So yeah. It becomes a piece of furniture. It's I'm the person who would put a drink on top of that box. And then it would spill and the whole TV would be ruined, Mike. Yeah. That that's a bad idea. Like don't put just put a little sticker on those liquids sleeve. It allowed. We've also seen all kinds of robots a lot of robots really fascinate you. Yeah. I love robotics. I find them terribly interesting. They've really come a long way since it's funny. You said this is your ninth year here. Broadcasting from c. Ss my ninth year here at CS as well. And they've come a long way. Now, we've got these a lot of robots that are designed not just to be virtual assistant. Right. So you've got your Alexis Google's in Cortana and series and everything. But now we're starting to see these third party robots that are self contained, and they are there to help you. So one of the things I saw last night added vet called pep com. Was this rope called L E Q and Ellie Q is a robot that was designed to be a companion. But also an assistant for the elderly who live alone, anybody who lives alone, but still wants to be independent and can be independent. She does things like there's a tablet on the right next to her. And she's got like a kind of an upset goblet shaped head, and and then there's just the light pulse. When she talks like there's no face, which we've seen some of that. But there's just a light pulsing and the way she MU. Moves is very Pixar. Like, it reminds me of that lamp, the Pixar lamp, the cute little Pixar lamp, and she does things like if I were to send a message to my grandpa, for example, who who had Elliott Kyun his home. There would all of a sudden a message would come through and say you have you have a new video from your granddaughter? Like, would you like to watch it, and then you can interact with her? And apparently, she will remind you to take your medication and say good morning to you and suggest that maybe you go out for a walk because it's such a nice day because she can look at the weather, and and that kind of stuff is stuff that I think we haven't really had the technology to see like developed and now this is very early. It's a prototype. We're not really sure if we're going to sell it and Ellie Q is available for preorder you buy this year. Like, it's so that's how many zeros only a couple. So it's fourteen hundred fifteen hundred bucks. So if which is expensive, but it's also only a couple hundred dollars more than the full. Iphone so it's not terribly expensive in the grand scheme of if you wanna robotic companion for somebody that you love that. You're you know, who may be a little bit lonelier than then you'd like them to be then maybe it's a good investment. And and that's that's actually a theme. I'm seeing Intech west. We love tech west because explain. See is divided up with the big shots who spend tens of millions of dollars on their displays for just a week. And they take massive square footage in the main less biggest convention center. And then there are the one Abe's that are typically entrepreneurial they may have private equity money. They have an idea that the marketplace isn't serving and we're in one of those areas because that's where I enjoy being what you see the creative kind of energy that you see from people. So I think that's really really cool to see the things like the robot will this robot. Do what some other things I saw will do is that if there's a lack of motion or activity from the person, they're the companion of will send alerts to like a list of trusted people. There are definitely some features in it that enable it to if it talks to you or maybe. Does like a check for you. Then if it does if you don't respond or you can ask it for help. So if you fall down, you can say like L E helped me, or you know, and then it will send out an alert, but it's not the same as as some of the stuff, you're describing which is you know, these are sensors and AAI that's being put in nursing homes to help healthcare providers understand when kind of do the more mundane things, right? So we see help people like astronauts healthcare providers and others finish the mundane task the really easy stuff. Maybe you go into a room and you say good morning. A robot says good morning. Here's your medication this morning. How are you feeling? You can tap the screen and show me like how are you feeling from scale one to ten and how's your mood and things like that? And then that can be given your healthcare provider allowing your healthcare provider to focus on the most important parts of your health and the things that robots can't do and give more time to that. As opposed to those like, really, so. Small mundane tasks every day in the speaking of the medical field, something I've mentioned before that the number of people exhibiting medical products has skyrocketed this year. What other trends are you seeing because I think about would you and I talked to years ago it was drone drone drone drone drum VR the ours VR and drones that was like the big thing. But I'm not hearing a word about drones this year. Yeah, that's strange. So what does that mean? Does that mean drones are now so mainstream? They're not a topic or they haven't led to the promise that people expect it from them. It's a little of both. I think these promises of tro delivery from Amazon, and and all these other things that people are really touting as like the biggest features of drones. Here's what they can do for. You are really just it's not there yet. And we have so many laws and things that have to be cleared before we can even think about using things like that. Plus, there's a safe. Safety factor that a lot of people don't want drones flying around the sky with your Amazon package in it. Because what if it fails? Then all of a sudden it lands on your car, and you get an car accident. So flying around in the sky is pretty dangerous. And so I think I think it's a little bit of both there and now with with all of the health tech out there. I think a big component of it. Really? Skyrocketing has been the rise of AI. And so and these chips that allow developers people here they hear artificial intelligence, but they don't really know her grasp what that means. And why it actually is something that could be beneficial to them, right? There's definitely a component of. It's a little scary. We always think of like Terminator with AI. But there are a lot of ways that already makes our lives better. Right. So if you use Google assistant to have it help you keep your schedule on track. We use. I for a lot of different things. It's just very subtle. And now we're starting to see a more overt use of the technology through things like direct communication with robots who learn about you can look at the surroundings who can who can say okay today. It's a really nice day. That's really exciting. Because that's when we start getting robots that feel a little bit more natural to use an and interfaces that feel more natural to us actually with the thing is there's this dark side to it. That is really the kind of thing from scifi movies. Where are we on that? Because I worry about this stuff because of what happens with teenagers video games. And all that. How do we make sure this is a good thing? Not a bad thing. I think that I think that it's definitely there was really interesting thread that I read a while back on Twitter and. Oddly enough, something valuable on Twitter mazing, right? But it was it was this guy who had been a physicist, and then he got into computer programming, and he talked about how the computer programming industry all of tech really has not had an ethical reckoning about what they're doing. And what they're creating compared to say the physics community who had to reckon with the ethics of the bomb back in the back in the day and the chemistry community who had a record with dynamite and chemical warfare. And now when you come up in those disciplines, you have to think about those things those that's part of your curriculum as the ethical ramifications of what you do as a physicist as a chemist a really good point. Because we see things all the time like Cambridge Analytica with Facebook leaking your data, and we see all kinds of other things where our information. Our data is used against us to weaponize to spread disc. Information to do all kinds of not good things. And so I think a I hope that Dino you said, let's look at the dark side of things. They're always going to be people out there who want to use that information that data in a bad way. And I think that these manufacturers these programmers all of these people who are involved all the way up to a CEO or founder of a company and safe and secure because there's always some company who cut some corners. And then inevitably you always hear about it. Yet. So thirty seconds hit me with your favorite thing. Personally, you've gotten buzz about are seen so far. I think my favorite thing is I've been really into self driving cars, I really love Biden's Biden's vehicle that they showed off a Biton is car company. I've never heard of they showed off basically, a super high tech car that has a massive screen. It's like four I pads like back to just say, it's the future. You look at it you go death the future. And that's the stuff. I love to see it. See? Yes. So the idea of having the vehicle drive it self has been talked about now for probably ten years. It's happening. It's getting there. It's cl- closer. Well, actually a scatter. How close do each time with your name ninety nine point nine percent. So that's the best I've ever done it all these years. Thank you so much for joining us again on the Clark Howard show as we broadcast live from the four of CEA. The Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas. Great to have you on this special edition of the Clark Howard show. One of the really neat things is wandering around seeing the brilliance of different people the solutions. They see to problems that others have not been able to address Kim specifically target smaller organizations that have come up with a new way of solving problems Cam. What have you found for us now? Hey clark. I am here. What Jennifer she is with clear up, and this is a way to help with sinus Hain without having to take drugs, which is something we've all been looking for how does this work since a candy at it's a small handheld device that shaped like a pair and the tip of the pair you apply to the sinus passages along your cheek along your nose on along the brow bone area. And we use a proprietary electrical stimulation very tiny tiny tiny amount of electrical current and a specialized wave form that stimuli. It's the nerves and the biological responses to relieve the sinus pain, and this is a class of medicine growing class of medicine called electrical medicine or bio electric medicine number companies in the field have done implantable devices. So if we think we're taking technology like you would find a deep brain stimulator or in a spinal implant that we brought out into a home use hand-held device over the counter to make it available to mass market interesting too. When I'm holding it to my face, and my feeling anything some people do some people don't you'll feel a little bit of brazen that is used to tell you that you've located and optimal treatment point. And then the microcurrent stimulation some people feel that some people don't really notice it at all. And how long does it take for you to feel the effects? So we did a double blind randomized control study at Stanford sinus center in that study three out of four people with a five minute treatment felt relief. Eighty two percent of them preferred it to their current treatment methods. So that was pretty cool and with that one treatment with on average of thirty percent reduction in. Pain at about twice as much as over the placebo the sham. So when the doctors see that number because this is something that they've been trying to treat for years often without really any effective mechanisms they get really excited men are patients patients actually are consumers who are using it and have been really excited in here at the show that people are trying going. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Just feel so good. That's amazing. And can you tell me how much it's going to cost? Absolutely be available midyear one hundred and forty nine dollars one time purchase. So there's no refills subscriptions associated. That's just wonderful. And where do people go if they want to learn more? So the company is typic- health T V, I C health L T H, so typic- health dot com. And you can find more information there about clear up sinus pain relief. That's fantastic. Thank you so much Clark. This might be a good one for you. You've had sinus issues in your life. Right. I have an for some reason I have not in recent years. So I don't know what's cured mine. It's not been electric currents. But maybe it's the cure for you. And Kim this is a theme this year at more. So than in prior years, how many medical devices or available and some of them just are absolutely lifesaving things if they work as their pitched here. I can't wait to hear more from you. I'm so glad to have you. Join us here on the Clark Howard show where it's about your impoundment with knowledge. So you can keep more of what you make. But this is a special edition of the Clark Howard show of you're just tuning and we are for the ninth year in a row CIA's, formerly known as the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas where I get to see some of the most brilliant people on planet earth who come up with the craziest ideas most of which will fail in the marketplace. But ultimately plant the seeds for new things coming now, there are products, and ideas and technologies and all different phases of our lives. One area. That is starting to make a big difference is on the athlete field. There's more and more people exhibiting devices that are specifically geared toward. Towards improving athletic performance in various forms of sport. And at the same time, reducing injury rates in athletes, and that's just one odd category that has grown over the last probably three years at CS, but something that did not even exist. Here did not exist is now one of the most dominant areas of ceus and that is automotive. Technology cars is at mentioned to you before are basically rolling computers now, and the technology going on with cars is so extrordinary and I've gotten to experience it firsthand I've gotten to do to rides in various various technologies, very different ones that are fully autonomous vehicles. No. No driver necessary one of the vehicles. I wrote in. Is one that has no traditional automotive components at all. You get into this pod. It is able to with artificial intelligence figure out when there's something in the road. That's a problem when it needs to stop when it needs to avoid impact with something wouldn't say flawlessly down the road because when it senses object like somebody on a bike, or whatever it gets a little herky-jerky. But it is so clear that so many sources of transportation now that require a human behind the steering wheel. That's not going to be in companies are trying to get this done different ways. I got to ride in a demonstration vehicle done by Esa. Used to be called society of automotive engineers. I don't know if that's what it stands for now. But anyway, in this SUV, there's still a steering wheel. But is not used. There's a break. It's not used an accelerator not used because vehicle does all the driving. You just put in where you want it to go. It figures out the route to go and just drives there, and it was flawless and can handle surface streets. Secondary roads neighborhood roads highways freeways recognizes stop signs, red lights. It is absolutely stunning. What's going on with the technology involved with automotive? And it's very clear that the. Technology is right at the cusp of being ready for prime time. I mentioned to you last month about what Google is doing. Will. They call the parent company alphabet with the way Motoo service in a suburb of Phoenix where people are paying to ride in these Thomas vehicles that are able to drive you to your destination and charge you like an Uber lift, but without a driver being necessary. And that this is happening. A very awkward phase probably for as long as the next ten years while we go through the transition of vehicles that because of five G, which if you heard me talk about it prior in this special broadcast from ceus with five G vehicles real time or going. To be able to talk to each other and stay out of each other's way, even vehicles that still have a human driver or going to be able to be alerted through five G to avoid being in a collision to avoid impact. But there will be this very awkward phase the average age of vehicle on the road in the United States is about eleven and a half years. So even as fully autonomous vehicles become first years, and then commonplace we're still going to have hundred million vehicles on the road that still are old technology vehicles that require a human driver. And so that interaction of vehicle with a human driver and vehicle. That's completely autonomous will be messy. But I think about how I was wrong about something. My thirteen year old. Son. I predicted years ago that he would never learn to drive that Thomas vehicles would be ready by the time. He would be going for drivers license. I was wrong. We're still going to have people for the next several years at least buying vehicles that require a human driver in. He'll have to learn to drive when I think about my oldest daughter Rebecca who's twenty nine she and her husband are probably going to have kids in the next couple of years. Their kids will never learn to drive. That's not they may not learn to drive they will not learn to dry because they will grow up at a time where by the time they would be driving age. They will never have a vehicle to learn at because that will be so over there are people love the idea the open road and all that. And there will be. Legacy vehicles. Just like when the automobile started. Early last century to start to appear in meaningful numbers and the automobile was on the road with people on horses. And with buggies being pulled by horses. And then they hit that point where they became obsolete that same thing is coming with automobiles. I don't predict it. I guarantee it. So trust me on this having experienced it. The changes coming in how you get around. And it's just one example. And we are speaking now with Mike, Mike, it's my pleasure to welcome you to our special broadcast from Las Vegas CIA's. How you doing Mike? Okay. Are you great? I want to hear that. You're fantastic. Vange talking you. Well. Let's hope back can give you a fantastic answer. How can I be of service to you? He is I'm currently, but they live among phone that worked off of its service that were of sprints net word, which is CD may and phone. You know, according to FCC supposed to be a little unlock your phone prepaid service, and I've had it for over year. And I'm wanting to change the sayings on my device to where it will run off of a GM at work p Mobile's. So I can change areas which really for someone who knows what you're doing shouldn't be a very hard task. I'm just novice when it comes to this. So basically what I'm trying to find out? How to convert how reprogram the phone to work the GSM? Work instead of CDMA most phones that work on the obsolete networks that sprint and Verizon use the code division. Multiple access network CD phones, generally do not have the capability of working on. GSM network. The CD phones are captives of the network. They operate on in most cases. So if you had a phone that could operate both CD GSM, which is the dominant world standard. If you have if you paid for the phone you've had service for enough months. Sprint will unlock that phone for you. That's my. Comes in because I'm not actually whispering. I'm with a company called Tex now uses Sprint's network, and I'm John which to mobile which uses T Mobile's network. So near your phone is your phone locked anyway. Well, when I bought the phone is to company, you know, because pay for it all front, and they said, it's technically unlocked that they programmed it to run on the way it runs. So it should be a factory unlock. Because when it comes on the factory run off either network. It's just whatever the programming states actually, Google has found out. I believe that runs off of both network. But a lot of phones run on both technologies, and I despaired actually found this service through an app in Google play store. You know? So I really it was a second line. That's why it's Boyd service vote voice over internet provider. Phone service and. From my understanding the phone is phone that who I have an idea. I haven't idea I don't know Mike that it will solve the problem. But it's my idea of what I would do I would go into metro by T mobile store. What you speak called metro PCS, which is an old prepaid carrier asked them if they can check to see if. Eight if a metro chip they can put one in your phone in see if it will get dial tone and be able to place a call and be able to function on their network. They are used to people bringing phones, and I think that would be the best diagnostic because if you're going from one virtual network operator that you only approach through a website to another one you only approach the website. You're not gonna be able to get that diagnostic. But if you go straight into metro by t mobile store, they'll be able to check it for you. And you'll be able to see is your phone able to operate on GSM. And that would be the way that I would approach it. And this alphabet soup with networks is really in its last fades. We're not going. To have this problem anymore is the networks. Migrate to the new technology. The five G that I was telling you about earlier, and so you won't have to worry about transitioning phone from one provider to another if the phone is ready for networks from outer networks, you'll be fine being able to use it, and it shouldn't be this hard. We are one of only two countries in the world where this is an issue with having a technology companies again sprint and Verizon everywhere else in the world almost the networks work on global system for mobile, communication, GSM and phones are completely portable. I wish I could give you just a simpler answer go into metro. But that's what I would do. It's time for Kim. Droves to hit us with something. She's found hot on the floor. Kim every year. Roams around looking for things that really intrigued her that she thinks will intrigue you I Clark I'm back on the floor. And I am with Steve he is with babe is I gotta tell you. I check this one out online before seeing you here, and it's very simple. But also, very futuristic to me. Can you explain to people what's going on? Yes. In fact, oh memories between the edge of zero and three years old, someway, no Brin, but we can memorize them. Because when you don't have the language is very difficult to keep your memories. So what we have developed a device where you you save. You record. And you save all these memories between zero entries three years old. And it's what is very specific. From the baby's put of you. Everybody has a smartphone camera. But from the baby's view is very special, and then you have these videos for life. I mean when you have twenty thirty fifty you can relieve disbursements the first time your parents. So you defense at first time jumper, and so you. We're selling emotion here. Very cool. So for people who are in hearing can't see the device, this is something that instead of you taking pictures of your baby your baby would actually wear this device. So it's a very small camera put on the baby or close to the baby. There's no way from the wifi. So is it your thought that when an adult would view this would trigger a memory from when they were to exactly let's say how much would be ready to pay to see your first memories. The first time you apparent so too. So you the first time you'll grandparents so you, but he's somewhere, I know grain. So we were ready to lot to get back this memories, man. Now, we if you for someone these device to someone it would be able to have been Roy's forever. His first memories forever. Very cool. Can you tell me how much cost one forty nine dollars? And is it available right now. Yes. Right now, and it will be delivered. February next month, and you can go to the bay dot com website. There's it's you have a fool of mission. All right Clark. What do you think about that? It's incredibly simple because it's really just a camera that the baby's wearing. But it's really a thought that never crossed my mind before. Yeah. I'm kind of stunned because I'm daydreaming about the fact that there are less than ten pictures of me in existence between zero and five years old. There's like nothing at all of me as a small child into think today that people take pictures constantly, but never from the perspective of the very young infant. And this is crazy weird. And may be ingenious to you'll decide if it's worth hundred and fifty bucks. You're listening to the Clark Howard show. Thanks for joining us today. The Clark Howard show is produced by Kim droves. Joel LARs guard, Debra Reese, and Jim airs and remember twenty four hours a day where there to serve you at Clark dot com and Clark deals dot com.

Clark Howard Las Vegas Kim Roku CIA Google Amazon diabetes Mike United States Verizon Amazon Droves Samsung football
Bob Lazar, UFOs and Aliens!

That’s Strange

1:10:36 hr | 1 year ago

Bob Lazar, UFOs and Aliens!

"That strange where we dive deep into the Internet uncovering anything we think is weird strange controversial or makes you think? On your host Alex alongside Chad and Ryan. Take the dive with us down a rabbit hole of secret government projects, hidden research facilities, alien technology, and the man shed light on. Baba's czar is blowing the whistle on mysteries inside of a top secret research facility in Alien Technology House there come with us as we unpack his story but be warned. You may not be the same after listening. In May, of Nineteen, eighty-nine and interview with investigative reporter George knapp appeared on Las Vegas News Channel K. L. A. S. a shadowy figure under the alias of dentists explained exactly what was a secret facility south of Groom Lake in the Nevada desert. Nine flying saucers of extraterrestrial origin are being stored, analyzed, and Tesla. The subject explains that he was tasked with reverse engineering, the propulsion systems of the crash and did not know how the government had gotten hold of these crafts. The shadowy figure was eventually revealed to be Bob Lazar in a subsequent interview where he revealed his identity. Bob Lazar, who has a bachelor's degree in physics and electronic technology from PACIFICA University. And he continued his masters at Mit. He's a very, very, very interesting figure. Did you know before we started this researching into this? Did you know about him? I did I watched the Netflix documentary just a super interesting individual and I ended up going back in like watching his interview with Koa and and seem like how all that played out in the incredible. Reach that it had after the fact you know it was translated into multiple languages played over the entire world and people were gripped by by this man's story in what he had to say because he he seems so credible. It's seems like everything he's saying really has weight in is truthful. The fact that he started this with not really seeking the the attention or seeking the ACCOLADE. But actually just seeking to get the information out there even hiding his identity. That some might say that that would be the the behavior of someone trying to hide something but I see it as behavior of someone who is trying to protect themselves because they're saying something that that may actually be factual dude I bet he is phone calls every single day people trying to get a hold of this guy people trying to email him and all kinds of stuff and back when this verse back. When this first came out I mean think about that the technology and the communication that they had. Then you know people people today are used to getting like notifications every single day but think about how he felt getting all these phone calls when I mean he's just a regular guy he he was picked up because he has like a coup Wanda and now he's this huge figure even thirty years ago I mean. It's just insane. Yeah I mean, he said he used to have people camping on his lawn and stuff and you you gotta remember that within the Ufo community. There are a lot of people that are. I really know how to say it. A lot of people that are a little strange. So for those people to becoming too Bob Lazar and it's got to be slightly terrifying and you'll see as we kind of dive into his story that. I find him very credible i. find everything that he says very, very credible in a lot of the stuff that he has said in the past. eventually comes true. So. Basically he gets. His degrees from MIT. And Pacific at University. He starts working at a Los Alamos. Research lab and I believe Los Alamos. And working on physics and nuclear weapon research, which is what what the lab does. Obviously. And then during his employment there Alex. you kind of set it. He builds a jet powered Honda. It's. Kind of extravagant thing that he drives to work every day. It's literally a jet on a Honda. Civic. Nazi looks like something out of the future and he built this thing i. mean he built US thing in eighty nine I think it might have eighty nine was one he actually worked. As for so yeah, it was. It was probably around eighty four I think So that gets the attention of the Los Alamos. Local newspaper who put him on the Front Cover With. His Jet Cars Jet Honda that he built. And that. That's a little bit important to the story later on. So a pin in that. So He's working, at Los, Alamos. And he says that he leaves Los Alamos and goes off to start other businesses that that turn out to fail. Now, he never really goes into detail or at least I couldn't find. What those other businesses were, but he a couple years later wants to get back into the science community so At Los Alamos Edward Taylor who's known as the father of the hydrogen bomb is giving a lecture at the lab. Lazar once where Lazar worked cracked. Yes. And Lazar, obviously with a with a major passion for science wants to see this guy talk because he's a, he's a huge scientific figure. So he goes goes to the. To the lecture and actually encounter some outside of the lecture. Prior to Prior to. Edward Teller going live and doing the actual lecture and he's reading the newspaper. that. Has Bob Lazar on the front page and he's which is wild when you really yeah what are the odds and and he's like? He's this guy is probably a celebrity to him. You know he's a celebrity in the science community. So to to Bob, he's like he's reading my news article I gotTa go introduce myself. So he goes introduces himself they Chit Chat for a little bit and that's really end of it. He goes to his lecture. and. If you fast forward a couple years after that. Bottles are start sending out resumes in an attempt to get back into the science community, and one of these resumes goes out to Edward Teller and references this meeting. References on the guy that you talk to the had the jet powered car and Edward Teller remembered him and gave him a contact to e g and G, which is a national defense contractor. He gave not only that he gave him a great reference right I. Mean You got this big big name guy that that he sees Bob Lazar. A frigging newspaper and It's kind of one of those things that you're like due to every single star was aligned that day you know right and absolute in for for Bob. Lazar. Is Crazy in an innocent stuff like that happens all the time that leads to. This kind of stuff. So it's not that it's not unbelievable that all this stuff happened right so he sends out his resume to G and G. And this is the company. National Defense contractor that hire scientists for area fifty, one s four, and that is how bob gets the job at us for he starts at facility in December of nineteen, eighty eight, and this is pretty much where. His entire life changes, Lazaro begun work at a test facility in the Nevada desert under the pretense that he would be working on advanced propulsion. He had no idea how advanced the technology would turn out to be after a mountain of paperwork and security clearances. He began his job at the remote facility south of groom. Lake when he learned what he would be working on Lazar was thrilled as we all would be it wasn't every day that someone got to work on technology not even from this planet Lazaro along with the other scientists they I mean they had a really strange schedule. You've got. Sometimes, they're being called in as late as eleven and being told to be apart to be at the airport at a specific time. So it's it's a lot of back and forth it's a lot of them having to kind of change things on the fly and then. When they were at the airport, their flight would then take them from Las Vegas into area fifty one and obviously everybody knows area fifty one it became a cultural icon in terms of a of a an actual location. And still is so yeah, it's it's. It's definitely been something that a lot of people have had interest in because it's a secret government facility. I mean it's Kinda inherently. You want to know what's going on in there. I. Mean it's like that. They had that raid and and all. That was forever ago. Now, the best part of that is if you look up the actual facebook. Invite. It says that they will gather and then new rudo run to to area fifty one, which which are you kidding me like that's such a terrible plan like I remember reading that at the time thinking you all are about to get shot dead in the lizzy after really there's really no other. Way that it would that right right and it says, it says they're gonNA know Rudo run and they'll be faster than their bullets to to me. I'm like, what are these people talking about? Like? That's absurd. Someone spending way too much time watching anime and not enough time reading physics books. Yeah absolutely. Absolutely great way to put it. So yeah, they did. They did have really bizarre schedules and Bob's mentioned multiple times they get called at like four fifteen. Hey, you gotta be at the airport at four, forty five you're playing leaves five, and that's that's kind of hard have work scheduled like that when you don't know when you're GONNA get called. But when you balance it off a what you're going to work to do I mean I'm fine with a call me five minutes before to be there I don't care definitely I there. I would just camp out right outside a call me when Niemann and he said and he said that some of the scientists did actually stay there and they were caught on like two week. On one week off type of deal. Depend depending on the. imagine what section of the of s four you're actually working at. Once they got into. Area Fifty, one, the flight tasting there and. Typically. When you got there, the hangar doors were usually closed. Going into the entrance to the facility and Bob Actually tells of a time when they were not closed. So he's looking and he finally got a glimpse into the hangars. He sees one of nine flying saucers inside the day I mean. You're walking around in this bay and you're like, dude, this is typically. Than shut off completely private, and then you're like, okay, fine. It's it's open whatever you're still walking through and then you see a flying saucer. So. So it's it. Yeah Right. It's actually interesting because when he mentioned this story, he says that he doesn't think they're alien aircraft. He thinks this finally explains why everybody's seeing ufo's because this is the new fighter plane working on so In and I think he said it had an American flag on it too. So he's not thinking even at this time that these that these ships our off world ships that were built there. Are the next. In the lineage of you know however many fighter planes that we have throughout history. So he thinks it's hilarious. He thinks it's. You know finally explains all these stories. It's the government test flying these new fighter plot. Which I think. Is hilarious. And then he has no idea. Right, he's kidding himself into A. And All I. can think of Independence Day in like that slow walk through the through the lab. Third however many layers below the below the earth. That's all I can think of is like you know what kind of facilities are actually underneath their you know, right? Right So sometime later after meeting his partner, who will throughout he refers to his berry. Was Our was shown what he would be then working on. Lazar describes being a reactor of some sort half a sphere with a hemisphere, roughly the size of a basketball as he describes, which which when turned on would generate an anti gravitational field around it, which is insane to I for him to even be describing something like this that he saw I, mean. Anybody I mean I can. I can see why people were like Yao gay dude whatever right because of the technology that the technology that they're referring to is is insane absolutely insane. We have nothing even remotely close to doing the stuff that this thing does. And it doesn't produce any kind of. Heat, it doesn't get above ambient temperature is producing A. Absurd amount of energy absolutely absurd amount of energy something we can't even comprehend. No. So then Berry tells Bob to try to touch the sphere in he describes attempting to do it and he explains that it's almost the same as pushing repelling magnets together except there's no medal involved. Who simply as hand being forced away So I mean, it's it's got that's gotta be shocking to to put your hand toward something and feeling that feeling of the magnets. But knowing that there's no involvement in any metal, there's nothing it's basically creating a force field around this thing which doesn't exist right nothing nothing that we have exist and if you think about the Even, the military applications in something like that. If you put up force field around at tank, you could put a force field around soldiers. This thing isn't that big this reactor, it's a hemisphere of a basketball. So, it's not massive by any stretch right? Also, this was thirty years ago right? Was Our side coupled with some of his briefings that he had read getting a glimpse into the space craft in the hangar is when it all clicked. Job was to reverse engineer apparent alien technology. The briefings he had read explained that the project was to back engineer the alien craft and specifically replicate it with available materials. Classified projects often are very compartmentalized so that the researchers have just enough what? Just, enough information to do the job that they are tasked with, but they don't know the whole picture Lazar was tasked with Propulsion Unit of the craft and I mean, you know that is not uncommon like even in the technology world, you know you've got all these companies working on secret projects all the time, and if you think about it, you've got all these different areas like let's take a cell phone. For example, you're working on the cellular technology. Then you're working on the operating system that you're working on the camera you're working on the screen you've got all these different areas of. Of. Focus where everybody can work separately. But then when the project comes together, that's when you actually see the fruition of. Not Uncommon. This would actually be very common way to accomplish this goal because it means that the information the real information about what's trying to be accomplished doesn't get out into the wrong hands. You only want you only want the the right people to know the right stuff and you don't need. You know. Some random guy like Bob, Lazar at the time to no more than needs to rhyme and it makes it makes perfect sense. So he goes on to explain the bizarreness of the reactor. When it's powered off if you lift the dome off the the Hemisphere. Nothing is connected with any kind of wires. The components aren't connected in any way they just seem to work by being in the vicinity of it of each other. The other oddity is that this machine is producing a large amount of money and it never raises temperature like I said earlier, there's no off gas there's no exhaust it's not even raising in temperature. So it's literally working at one hundred percent efficiency. So you've got this crazy machine producing insane amounts of energy and not producing any sort of Gasser. He'd just like you said. So you know being that you know nothing on our planet can do that at the same as this reactor with little or no side effects it is. It just instantly gets was ours attention which I would understand entirely. Continues to work on this project for what he says must have been around six months before the incident that caused him to actually come back occurred. So Lazar discovered that test flights of the. Intact crafts would occur on Wednesday night around Papooses Lake and the explanation that he he's given is the area the area on Wednesday nights has the lowest amount of traffic. So it's the lowest chance at anybody's going to see this thing flying around in the night sky. So by this point, he's like he's kind of like making a plan he's pre-planning he's analyzing and. Kind of figuring out. When this stuff's going to happen and when he can get a glimpse and really see what's going on, which is really cool. Right like he's like Sherlock Sherlock, Holmes and. So he does probably what any of us would do at the time, which is like, let's bring some friends and show him the spacecraft lying around in the night sky right make sense everybody wants to see that. So he brings his friends once twice on the third time they get a little careless. They bring like an Rv they're probably barbecue and drink in. And they actually get encountered by guards from the base. So he's detained. In Lazar own words, they brought him into the Facility for debriefing. And they had presented him with transcripts from his home phone. Now, at the time, his wife was actually having an affair and that's what was on the briefing. So now he knows that. They're listening to him on his home phone. He knows that he's probably a good amount of trouble because Awadhi just did. And they joke around with them at first and say you know When you when we told you, you couldn't tell anybody about this. We met your friends. Do you know that right? which is a little joking thing to do and he says that he doesn't even know that they were sure. What to do with them because they let him go that night. So now like I said, he's Starting to get a little worried because he knows that he's in trouble, he knows that he's being monitored. And this is the point where he never returned to work at us for now. Some of the things that I found in his story. All seemed to be the same except for a couple of things in this is one of the couple of things sometimes he says. They took his clearance away and that's why he never returned to work, and then sometimes he said he was scared to return to work because. Of what had happened and he know honestly couldn't those both be the same like. They did take his clearance away but at the same time like maybe he never returned to the base because he was scared as I mean it could be both in all reality think about it. Right. So what what are you guys thinking about this guy? I mean so far I mean I think he he seems credible. You know. I'm a person who believes in aliens and I'm a natural skeptic. which we've discussed before on the show but. I think that. You know aliens have to exist in the universe is just too big for their not to be something out there. So believe it exists. Do I believe this guy's story necessarily I don't know because I'm a natural skeptic I like to see physical evidence and I like to see things that are that are laid out in front of me rather than than the testimony of someone else and especially you know this this last thing that we talked about, you know he gets caught and in the moment of getting caught. You know you you Kinda get your security clearances taken away. What happens when people you know who who are doing a job get get released from their job without them really wanting that to happen. They get they get angry and they tried to lash back out eke out they speak out. So in that that that I think explain your exactly explains why he would come forward with something like this because it was relatively soon after he left that he came forward. And did the interview that we discussed earlier on in the episode. So I think you nailed that perfectly right there Ryan actually and as far as the as far as any kind of like it's just a mathematics. It's almost a mathematical certainty that there's a life out there somewhere else. The out there. Has To be when you look at when you look at some of the numbers. Involved in space it's just it's it's a no brainer I really think. So I I really have a hard time listening to people that think were alone. And this stuff is all fake and it's never going to happen and that kind of stuff because it's just it's just not plausible in my opinion. When I was younger I wanted to be I wanted so bad to be an to be an astronaut and I think a lot of kids did. But then as I got older I realized I don't know if I want to fly to space because that seems dangerous I watched the Challenger explode. I'm of that I was born in the year the Challenger exploded. So think about that in any think that's a little dangerous maybe astrophysics it'd be a good place to go I ended up going into it but astrophysics I I would have loved to have done that and this. So this area is, is something that I'm very interested in it. I mean like you said, the math of it has to say there's there's life there's something out there whether it's Protozoa ick little amoeba of a thing. That's one thing but you know if it is intelligent life if it is something that we can that we can reason with you know if you've ever seen a rival. That we can communicate with and figure out the language of that changes human history entirely right? Absolutely. That would absolutely be the biggest discovery and will remain the biggest discovery. Of Human History Without A. Because ever in the and it's almost like one hundred percent certainty in my mind that there are. A me buzz in that kind of stuff there I'm talking intelligent life. Specifically, it's a very, very high probability that it's out there. Also, I would agree with you on that, there's gotta be something I don't know the level of intelligence I mean, are we looking at a situation I if you've ever seen the day, the earth stood still. I watch a lot of SCI fi like. I watch a lot of movies. All do so so I mean. Think about it like any in a way of of the day the Earth stood Celio this per- this alien comes to Earth takes on the form of a human and tries to deal with with leadership of course, leadership on the world is is infinitely stupid and makes a lot of really horrible mistakes and we ended up where we end up in that movie. If if you've never seen it I highly suggest you go watch it. Are we talking about that level, right? Not Right now wait until the podcast is over please and if you're listening to this in the car, definitely, don't watch it because that's a horrible idea. Stop looking up right now right Google this at a stop because someone's going to Honky you you should probably keep going. So I think the cool thing about Bob Lazar. Specifically as that maybe this is exactly what this. Research facility needed at the time. He's he's a guy that put a jet engine on his Honda they need somebody that thinks out of the box and. He says Multiple Times that the way that they operate at this facility. Nobody's allowed to talk to anybody. You're only allowed to talk to your partner and that for science is absolutely. I. I mean it's a tragedy for science because you science is about free ideas and speaking and talking and bouncing ideas off of each other if you can't do that. That's why this. This team has been stagnant for so long. So they need a Bob Lazar they need somebody. That's GONNA put a janitor and on their Honda because he can. Probably. Did he probably put Jenin in on all the employees cars? Right part of the deal. Yes. Hey, you want top secret clearance, put a jet engine it on my card, Yup I actually came across the name of the clearance that that he claims he had was majestic and it was like thirty six levels over q clearance, which is the civilian Top secret clearance after unveiling his identity and telling a story to the public there were many attempts to discredit and dehumanize him as would be the norm. George. KNAPP, the investigative reporter who initially broke Lazar story began having a difficult time proving any of Lazar history. Caltech and MIT had no record of a Bob Lazar attending or graduating Los Alamos National Laboratory had no record of him ever being employed at the facility furthermore, an attempt to get Lazar birth certificate proved impossible as they had no record of him being born nor did the hospital he was born at while some say. This completely discredits this story others say is a clear attempt to erase his past and if you think about it. Isn't that exactly what this government would do in that situation, it would absolutely absolutely sat and I think that. What really kind of leads to that thinking is that they are race his birth certificate I think they should have not erased disperse certificate because that makes it a little obvious right his mom saying, no, he exists. His wife is saying, no, he exists. So they just went one step too far if they just erased his schooling. Then that would probably discredited a store and completely. Right. I would agree with anybody can say, exactly I mean think about it like anybody can say they go to a school and then you find out that they don't go to that school but not everybody can say, Hey, I exist and then be proven to not exist that doesn't really work. That doesn't really make any sense. It's almost like saying, Hey, this computer in front of me exists or it doesn't. Right obviously exists. I'm using. It doesn't really that doesn't really hold water as an argument you know. Right. So so in an attempt to find any piece of Lazar History, George, KNAPP gets his hands on a couple of things that are very important I think to proving his schooling and proving his past he gets the news article. That we talked about earlier about the jet powered Honda that he had built in the article. It says that he's a physicist at Los Alamos National Laboratory. They also get a phone book, the phone directory from the lab that shows his name and phone number amongst the other scientists and physicists at the facility. They also go george goes in questions some of La's older friends. And they say. They used to derive Bob all the time to Caltech back in the day. So if he wasn't going to school there, he sure was putting on a good show back in the day of it because they drove there are a lot now would this guy? If you think about this somebody could say. He just proud probably putting that show on. So he could tell the story later is he really putting on a show ten years before he comes out and tells the story right that doesn't sound plausible to I. Don't know what you think about it. But so the thing is, is that you know to kind of bounce off what you just said Chad is is Bob didn't have the yeah. Sure. Bob Walked up to Edward Teller usery magazine or the newspaper and and they had that conversation but. Bob was just he was walking up to somebody that respected just like any of us would in having a conversation with him and. He didn't have the the say-so or the power to. Then, give him reference refer him to this position and it was tie so much time later that. That that even happened. So for people even speculate that he had this big plan that he was going to you know. Get this government level top secret clearance I. Mean that would be the worst plan in the world especially for somebody who's so calculated like a physicist would be right yeah. It's and it's also when he goes to. Come forward there's he has to know that. George KNAPP at the time was a huge investigative reporter and Las Vegas, which is not a tiny little town. So he's a major investigator reporter. He has to know that this guy's GonNa dig deep and try to find improve the story or disprove it, and that's exactly what he does. He makes Lazar take multiple polygraphs. He's gone under hypnosis to try and remember some of the science that he learned while he was working there. He's passed all the polygraph so. It's I know I just find this guy very, very compelling. Very compelling. I. Mean I would agree I think that I think there's a lot that's a place and a lot of things that Kinda lineup and It would be the. Evil Scheme of a lifetime you know to be pulled off. For him to do something like this, and then to to try to you know For the the fact is he didn't want. Like you said, he didn't want any of this fame popularity. He didn't want the people contacting him all the time I mean. Right he wants to live his life. Losers. Live is life. He didn't. He's from what I've found is never take any kind of money or anything like that his. And he doesn't even care about the aliens. Really. He doesn't care about that. He cares about the technology and the science, right? That's what drives him. That's what drove him to get the job. That's what drove him while working there was the science behind it because he's mentioned multiple times that it was a horrible place to work. People were always yelling and screaming is just it's a government place right? I mean it's not the most efficiently run place so. He really is not gaining anything from this if anything. I mean he's probably made his life significantly harder than would have been if he just would have never said anything right because for him family friends, right? Right and his wife even even has commented and it might have been in the documentary. Bob Doesn't lie. He's he doesn't lie. He he's not somebody that just makes up stories. He's not going to make this up and he's not GonNa, go to the lengths. That he did if he did make it up, he's not going to have his. Friends drive them to a fake school. He's not going to ten years before hand he's not going to make up all these. You know what I mean. It just doesn't make sense and you know I think that you know something to consider is that you what if what if he started in this is purely a devil's advocate position what if he started this, not knowing the level that he would actually achieve you know what if he started this with like well, you know I'm Gonna I'm going to mess with everybody a little bit but not really understanding the level to which people would take him seriously and then at what point in that response do you actually say? I was actually joking the entire time. Point you actually say that you know. That doesn't really it doesn't really add up if you if you really think about it if you like if you really really really think about it if he did make this up if he did push it. At what point would he say he's not At what point would you say that he's not serious that he rushed Right I think at the point that he's at if that's true. Ryan just to go off the story let's assume that's true. He made this entire thing I don't think he ever says. Right 'cause it's not like he's lying to his friends his family he's lied to his wife for me years. All best friends he's lied to a you know major people, investigative reporters, all kinds of stuff I don't think he ever says it right exactly I mean even even if it was all lie and you know in here here on this podcast I think that one thing we strive to do is we never want to say oh. Yeah this is definitely true. because. We don't want to to look at the the odd parts of life and say Oh yeah, that's absolutely true. We WanNa we want to leave some interpretation open I at least in my opinion and you know right to me there is an interpretation level that you could take with this where you can say, okay well, this dude, you know he he you know he got he got drunk with some friends and. He had an idea and then he called this dude he did an interview was like you know what? This is going to be completely off the record. No one's going to know who I am and then people found out who he was and that changed everything now not to say that his story isn't true. I'm not saying that but you know at what point as a as a human being in the planet. At, what point in his history would you actually stop and Satan? I was actually joking the whole time. I don't know that I would i. really don't know right and I think I think it's It's probably scary for him in a way. To think about that because maybe he's lying everybody and he actually does Kinda like the fame a little bit. He likes the attention he's getting now some of the attention like the the FBI's rating has places and stuff some of that attention. There's no way you could like it right sure. But maybe maybe let's just play devil's advocate he loves it. He loves people are chasing him. He loves whatever it is it scary for him to come out and say you know and discredits everybody that has tried to prove from right to George KNAPP WHO's a very, well renowned investigator reporter that would totally ruin his career probably. So. At a point, it's not just about yourself anymore it's about the people. You Talk to the people that believed you the people that went to bat for you. The people that made a documentary by there's so many different people that you'd be screwing over by coming out right I mean it's You know I was just going to say for instance, you know Jeremy Cordell. This guy has gone great lengths to he didn't just make a documentary about Bob Lazar. He has been an advocate for Bob Lazar to try to get. His story out there and his story legitimized. There are obviously tons of people that are skeptics and and he I you know in my opinion I think he really Feels for the guy he he's like, he's like you know this the. Disguise, live normal life, right? He's he's got all these people On his back he's got. It, it's it goes. It goes above. Somebody just saying. Hey. This thing happened and and people being like, okay. Yeah. So we are going to get too much more of this story. But I here is an addict from Myth Story Hey Gimme Hey Brian. What do Hood Vlad The impaler in Mothman have in common EDUCA- what well they're all topics on our podcast mystery where each week we discuss a new myth and the history behind it. That's myth story with an I. E. C. Then Oh During his employment at s four Lazar claims to have read briefing documents explaining Earth's ten thousand year old involvement with extraterrestrial entities referred to as lands. In the documents stated that these aliens came from a planet orbiting the Zeta Ridiculous Star System. More specifically CR three or the third planet in the system. Zeta routinely. Binary Star system approximately forty light years away from Earth and it's visible only in the southern. Hemisphere. This isn't the only time that data. has been mentioned as it relates to ufo stories. While as our states, he does not know how the government choir the ships for certain. He does recall a story Berry had mentioned briefly. So Barry mentioned to Lazar that he thinks at least one of the ships came from an archaeological dig. No location was given to the story by Berry. But this maintains that some of these ships might be not only old but ancient right. So these these these if it comes from an archaeological dig than it's got to be very, very old, which is insane. It kinda proves that these. that. These species are aliens are you WanNa? Put it that that are. Being discovered through this technology is. That they are ancient that they are from from behind. Comprehend right and they've been here for a long time if we got one of their ships from an archaeological dig. So Zeta particularly can only be seen with the naked eye on dark night in the Southern Hemisphere and as of two thousand twenty. There's no such thing as the are three there are no EXO planets. That orbit this binary star system. So. You can take that now I think he mentioned before that. Sometimes they put wild stuff in these in these briefings that way if he were to leak it. Maybe, he reads that it came from Zeta. Maybe the next guy reads it comes from a different star system when you leaks it he they know that it was Lazar that leaked at because it came from, you know what I mean. So it's not out of the realm of possibility but has been mentioned before and I know I knew when I was doing the research on this that I had heard Zeta ridicule before. So in my mind I, remember Zeta particularly being the star that they go to the movie Alien Ryan Have you seen the movie alien I of. Course I have come on. Yeah. So I turned it turned out that I was right they do get a distress call from Zeta particularly in the movie so that instantly while I'm doing this research like all this guy's just trying you know he's saying that it comes from the same star system that the airlines do the eighties movie that probably super-popular when he's telling the story. But then as done as I dug deeper into it. There was actually an abduction story in nineteen, sixty, one, September of Nineteen, sixty, one, Barney and Betty Hill. They live in New Hampshire and they were traveling back from vacation when they saw a bright light in the sky just like every single abduction story ever heard they pull over to observe it and we can really do probably an entire episode on this thing. So I'm not going to touch on it too much. But now they lose hours worth of time and end up. Miles away from where they remember being. And through all the different hypnosis and stuff that betty went to try to remember stuff she actually draw drew A. Star Map. In the Star Map. Nobody could place it. Nobody had any idea there's like that it doesn't even exist. except I think it was like an. Maybe an English teacher something got a hold of it and she discovered that it's actually what? The, stars would look like from. Zeta ridiculously, and one of the stars in that looking out is our son. So that's where it went even further back on like now you know you've got the alien thing which I which I thought is where Bob got this from. And now we go back to this and Betty still refers to the grey aliens that she met that night as Zeta. So I thought it was kind of off topic a little bit. But I thought it was a little interesting to put in here because definitely Oh, for sure out agree I mean you look at the the grace you know let's will start using the grey aliens because everyone knows the grace right? If you've ever seen the the movie, Paul, or if you've ever seen Close encounters of the third kind you understand Mars tax they're all the same idea there. The idea of this, this alien that is gray and appearance big head big is. Really no mouth communicating through some sort of telekinesis. This is a very commonly held experience of aliens. So it makes perfect sense that this would be the the explanation now does that mean that he is right and that he actually is making sense or is he just feeding into the populist nature of alien? biography. The, there's a history of alien here. Whether you know what ever way you WanNa cut it. That is he just feeding into that same? That seemed shared belief that same shared understanding is he just feeding into that or is he actually showing something different right? I think I think it could really go either way when I first saw the the alien specifically from the movie I was like. Yeah I mean I think that the movie came out in nineteen seventy nine he's telling a story ten years later it's probably it's still popular today. So it had to be popular wreck then. So he's just talking about the aliens in that movie. and. That's the star system that pops into his mind. And then and then I found the betty story in the Barney's Barney and Betty Hill story and it was like Oh. That's kind of interesting because it seems like I couldn't really find any other. Substantial. Stories where they said that these graves or from Zeta ridiculous. But I mean I guess it could happened that the the fact that there's no exo planets around the binary star I think kind of disproves that a little bit. But that doesn't mean that aren't any exo planets around the star. We might not have seen him yet obviously many of set out to disprove Bob in his story time and time again, what he has said is actually eventually come out is true. The hand scanner. For instance, he tried to describe that was used to get into as for was revealed years. Later, the same scanner us to get into the self program was are explained that the alien craft uses a reactor in an alien element known as element one fifteen to affect gravity waves up until recently, gravity was thought to be produced by theoretical particles known as gravitons. British scientists have sensed detected gravity waves seemingly proving Lazar was correct again once again, the recent news that the Pentagon's UFO, unit will no longer hide in the shadows and we'll make some findings. Public was accompanied with a classified briefing that asked for physicists and Pentagon contractor Eric W Davis gave to government officials in the briefing. He discusses the retrievable of an off world vehicle not made on this earth and I'm very intrigued by the UFO unit I can't wait I'm going to be like a little kid on Christmas morning every time that they release something because I find this stuff very, very, very exciting if you even look at. Some of the Pentagon releases the videos that the Navy pilots had. Bob Lazar always stated that these ships don't fly like they do in sci fi movies straight across they actually turn their belly to their destination and fly that way down in like in star wars one of the videos NCI. Like Boba Fett ship and star. Wars Zach clicked way of winning it so. He. The video that was released. Actually shows that ship turning its belly before going off the screen. So I found it. I was like, Oh, my goodness is just another thing that proved him right and then the element one, fifteen thing. I mean we could probably do a you know that's why. Bob Lazar was raided by the FBI and the documentary they think that he stole a piece of this element one, fifteen, this fuel. And it's actually on the periodic table. Now I think two thousand was either two thousand and five or two, thousand fifteen it was put onto the. Periodic table and I think it's like Makoni neom or something Mosconi or something like that but it's actually a non stable. It's a non stable. Version of element one fifteen and he explains in the movie how element one fifteen is made but it I mean it's way beyond my brain powered understand what he's saying so. what do you? What do you guys think about this Ufo Unit? You guys excited to hear what they say or what course I mean you know. What other time in history can you think of that? You know the government actually said. Hey. Yeah. UFO'S EXIST Here's some information about them I mean that's that's kind of unprecedented if you really think about it in our modern history. I don't want any that I mean we are. A it kind of goes. With what I was saying like. People are becoming more aware and it's almost like they have to. At this point they have to give us something right and you know with all the digging that not just were doing everybody. You know we have now this this documentary that was released of obviously about Baba Czar. and. After. People are watching this I. Mean this Guy Million Obviously Netflix's it got millions of views and you can't just. Give people that kind of information along with all the other stuff that was released the interviews and all that kind of stuff like you. You can't just. That can't just be public and then and then give people nothing. So so it is very exciting. It's obviously that we're all looking forward to seeing and I'm sure that we will definitely post an update on the blog. When that is released. Oh. Yeah. Absolutely. I will be all over the blog posts for every single. UEFA released from this unit and I, and I'm kind of hoping I kind of think. I already know it's going to I think it's going to probably disprove lobster or I'm sorry proved story. More and more is more and more gets released because he's already got. It seems like everything that he said so far nothing has really been disproved. You know what I mean. It's always it's always the stuff that he says like this wild hand scanner, it's a hand scanner. He tried to explain to people in the eighties that that pretty much looked at him like he was crazy it's like a it's got pins in it on your hand and says. Own Bone densities, it's a bone. People tried to really like be like dude you're absolutely crazy because nothing like this exists and now there's releases that say we actually use that in the stealth program and there's pictures of it and it's exactly what Bob Describes so. and. Then the gravity thing I mean it it's been thought for for a significant amount of time that gravity was caused by these theoretical particles known as Gravitons, and now now they actually know that it's a wave, which is another thing that Bob Lazar said the ship's affect gravity waves. So it's just you know and it's all like really. There's no way he guest any of this stuff all. Rightly. So what what have you read in his in his lineage in the information that he has provided that you think might be suspect they're just just specifically attack that angle what do you think might be suspect of what he has actually brought to light. I think what is suspect to me from doing all this research was the Zeta. Thing. That was really the only thing that I came across. That was Kinda like. I don't know, and then there's another thing where he states back in the original interview and might not be the absolute first interview that he did because I think it was after he got his shadow removed and he was out in the public. But he states that he walked past a window in s four and took a quick glance in just a small door window. And saw what appeared to be two. Men In lab, Coats. And a grey alien. Chair little a little alien in the chair now years later he he he comes out and says, I don't think I. Actually saw alien I think they had a doll or a dummy of some sort and they were measuring. For the inside of the ship. So those are the only two things that I really came across that I thought were. Kind, of suspect. So during my research. As well doing doing a little bit. Here and there throughout the preparation I came across A. a youtube channel called the behavior panel. and. Share. This side of it because I think it is important for you to get both sides. This particular video was a panel of. Language analysts, and they claim to be experts in in their in their field and. They analyzed. Multiple interviews. From. Bob Lazar. Some from when he started and then the latest one the Joe Rogan podcast. And the one thing that I thought to be kind of skeptical or something that that I thought that was compelling to share the the opposite side is. Their argument. First of all, they thought that he was. Being deceitful, and while I don't fully agree with that at all, I think that. One interesting point is that they thought that. He had time to create this theory over thirty years of doing interviews and that he had time to. to kind of perfect his story you had told me about this video. And I went onto the Internet trying to find it but I don't remember you telling me the exact the Yoda fine. So I actually found a different one and I found one by Derek van strike or something like that said hour long video and he's the same Guy Body language guy and he doesn't find anything deceitful on any of his videos so when you told me Go, watch this video they think he's lying was like, wow, this is weird because this video saying the exact opposite, right? Right. Right. He's a very eccentric. And So I definitely want to look up that other one and I think that's important to say because. Is definitely something that is I. Don't want to say it's easy to tell somebody's lying with body language, but there are experts out there that can make it easy, right? Yeah. You're absolutely absolutely right about that I mean there's So much science behind trying to find the source of a lie. That that makes it very interesting to actually pay attention to the body language of somebody who is trying to give you a story right and the in it's an it's really it's the same thing. It's the Joe Rogan interview and it's some of his older interviews. And I I. I just thought it was fantastic because he's he doesn't really do anything that this guy thinks is you know there's like comforting movements you make and. EXP- over explaining things I can't remember how he said it like. Explaining not conveying or something like that. But I I thought it was interesting. It's definitely worth looking into fear into stopping those videos because what I found interesting in those videos. This guy does this guy has not changed the story. Like. From his order interviews to Joe Rogan which to my knowledge is the the newest interview that he's done. It's the same. It's the same there snippets here, and they are like the alien thing that he recanted on where he saw the alien in the window. and. The Zeta ridiculous thing. But he says that in the Joe Rogan thing too. So he does not change his story which I find very. Would think. They always say if you never lie, you never have to remember anything. I would think after thirty years some of the stuff would be slipping his mind, right? Yes. So let's just go down the line and we'll start with. Roy Ryan what is your? What's your opinion? What do you think is this is this legit or not. So for me what he's saying sounds of very legitimate. However have to have to lean back on the idea that you know what it, what if he is actually making it up what if he made up that that initial interaction where he was quote Unquote Dennis. What if he then had back that information up and like I said earlier, you know what at what point do you say? Well, I was actually lying about all that you probably don't so to me. At what point do you do you hit that wall where you say okay yeah, I was lying. About all that you know. Really I. Wasn't really being truthful about it. You know in all reality I worked at their front desk and I allowed people into the facility in maybe I didn't know anything. But at the same time. What are the likely? What is the likelihood I guess of him being truthful and if he is being truthful, what does that mean for for what we understand about the universe and what's out there does that mean that we have already experienced something that we can't really explain or does it mean that he has described something we can't explain and we still can't explain it because we don't have all the details I'm not I'm not one hundred percent sure on either either side of that at this point I think it's my opinion. I am often very skeptical on things like Ryan is but through doing the research and I really went in initially because I had I had seen this documentary. Probably when it came out and I had listened to the Joe. Rogan was super into it and I was super skeptical back then. But at the end of the documentary and at the end of the interviews me, I was very convinced. With him and then the research for this episode just made me even more convinced. I think that he's not lying I think. Just, the stuff that has been proved right over and over again. I guess. You can say you think he might be guessing but he's a really good gasser if he's if he's guessing so it's my opinion that. This guy holds some weight and I think he's going to continue holding wait as soon as he's UFO. Briefings come out. because. It's just little snippets here and there that keep proving his story. And really not anything substantial that disproves it. So what does that mean for the history of our of our society? You know what? What does that mean like if if he's one hundred percent correct. What does that mean for our overall understanding of the world and in the universe? Really and how we in place actually is in I think it's Alex you want to answer that one I mean. So. If he's right and to be honest to row quick to to share My opinion I I think that I do think he's telling the truth I think that he's A. Between the. Between the fact that you know he doesn't really have much to gain. He doesn't really want much gain I do I think he's telling the truth. So to answer your question. If he is telling the truth and if he was right about all these things. Then What do we have to gain as a society as a You know in especially in the technological industry I don't think we have to gain anything and I'll tell you why. because. There are lots of scientists. There are lots of physicists. There are lots of doctors who do years and years of research with anything. and. None of it comes out. because. There is there is there is a line it's linear there. There's a line. That we are taking as a as a nation, not not even just as a nation as A. As a people. That this is how things go. These these specific The specific population is is meant to do this specific thing, and we will be gained by having these things at this period of time in the timeline and. Saying that. We have alien technology even if it is released I mean I don't honestly see us doing much with it at all I mean look at the humming this is really jumping away but but look at the like for instance, the moon landing and we could get into whole discussion with that but that was completely revolutionary. You know. for for you know for its time and went and it was publicized. We're ready to get. US. I can. See what you're saying I. Think there's a lot to be gained from this story of the story is true technologically, there is a lot to be gained here I. Think this stuff should be in the hands of the government I think it should have. A much more substantial amount of what it is in the hands of the government is racing. Oh so with you're saying just never gonNA. Yeah. Okay. With being in the hands. Yeah. With it being in the hands of the government. Nothing's GonNa come of it right because because it is not be something being in the hands of the government is not meant to. Benefit the people in the society it has meant to benefit the military and the government and and and their means of using that technology. It's just the same as thirty years ago he was talking about transparent the. That on command would would go from a opaque to transparent and we see that inside movies and that's a now he sees like smart glass and stuff like that. But Right Now that's thirty years after the fact, right? So so it's and. That's an inherent thing. I think like you're saying the government having it is is there They don't care about us. They don't care about anything that we could use that stuff for the amount of good. We could do with that technology they care about militarising it they care about protecting their tanks and the government is always to act in its own self interest. So if they find a way to to utilize. Whatever technology where we're talking about here? No matter which which angle or form that it takes. If it benefits the government. Overall. There their their overall investment in this conversation is to suppress that information so that they no longer have to deal with how it's going to affect the rest of the world as far as our conversation with them right and I think that I think. That's why. I personally believe that. The story is true like I said. So I, think that the government knows that there is other life out there and I don't know that we will see in our lifetime where they come out and say it because if you think about what kind of mass chaos that could really produce and what kind of ripple effects that could have through religion religious tax and everything that that the ripple effect it would have. It's easier to suppress it right just like it's easier to say that Bob was ours lying. It's easier to say that he's lying. It's easier to do that than it is to go out and try to prove his story. So, I don't think that. As much as I want them to I don't think this UFO units. Ghana's mention anything of other life I. Think it's going to be just these just these. Odd occurrences of these. In there are probably not even gonNA say their crafts are probably going to say they're something else, but we'll see. But I I, which is why things like perseverance are so incredibly important. Keeping an eye on the things that NASA is actually doing and how they're actually landing these craft on. Mars for example. They're going to have an entire helicopter that's GONNA lift off and do different things on this planet. In an environment that we have no idea how it's going to react to this information. seem that information come back is going to be a wildly. I don't even know like a revolutionary moment. For us as as human beings on this planet to understand like how does how does it I know it sounds so menial in so many ways, but how a helicopter deals with the atmosphere of Mars. Is, is a very, very different conversation to how do we deal with with the Moon the moon. So close that we understand so much the Mars. But Mars so far that we understand. So little and that that is a fundamental difference in the conversation there and then. That goes back to the fear thing people if you if you really and I think I mentioned this earlier. But if you think about it if this, if this story is true, these aliens are here they've come here that's horrifying and I'll explain why because if they're able to come to us, we can barely get to the moon. Hard time we have months of planning to get to the space station if they're able to freely come to another galaxy. That's scary. The. We are the Stone Age to them. They're able to interstellar travel that's horrifying to know that they're out there. and. The government probably doesn't want to release that because that would probably some sections of the world cause mass chaos knowing that these things are out there I keep back to the fact that this was thirty years ago and he's talking about technology that we still consider advanced that they had then right. I in this top secret government facility I mean in the in thirty years technology I mean, we all know this in thirty years technology can skyrocket. Yeah. Yeah. It's absolutely because actually at a government military level or you kidding, yeah they say, they say that the that are smartphones have more technology in it than the moon landing ship had. At the time Bob told his story, they didn't seem to know how this thing worked. He didn't seem to figure out how it worked is not out of the realm of possibility that in this thirty years, they know how this thing works. And they've now replicated, this thing will never know that right? Maybe maybe fifty years they'll come out with a press release that said and two, thousand and twenty. We started putting force fields around our tank. We've got smartphones just becoming more and more prevalent with incredible cameras in incredible video recording capability. We've got this history of all of these video of UFO's and whatever else why don't we have that now? Any ideas on that because it seems like if I can record four K. at sixty frames per second, there's no reason why we shouldn't have more of this. What do you guys think about that? Just like I said I, think that we're getting just as much as we. It's the same as as the personnel inside the top secret government facility. They were given just as much clearance as they needed, and we are being given just as much technology as we need and nothing more and probably less one hundred percent agree with you Alex Yeah I think you that perfectly there. I did think it was kind of kind of 'cause he goes into a little bit of detail of looking in the ship. and. He said there's no bathrooms. There's now anything that's that's recognizable to us. There's no computers. There's no computer screens which was relating to to saying that these. The Pew whoever needs to sit in that is not human, right? Right. Because they're small any any points out there smaller seats he said child side seats so it's not like. If our government did make this. Let's assume Bob Lazar is. Is Lying and this is just the new fighter pilot that we're working on. They wouldn't put childlike seats in it. Right. I mean, ultimately as our probably our longest and most in-depth episode. I think that. We're going to leave a lot of things to to to to question and I think that that's really where it comes down to is that. This seems like okay. Well, we can totally take this as you know with no grain of salt. This is what it is and we're gonNA presented as it is but then they're also parts of it where it's a little bit more of a question and I think that that's where we where we find ourselves. So often in this show is in that question in that in that moment where we can say, okay, well, yeah, there's a whole bunch evidence for this butts so. We encourage you to do your research we encourage you to. Look into this for yourself. You know. Find out what you think. Do you think he's telling the truth after this? Do you think this is all completely made up and and honestly if skeptic before and this was. Something that was compelling to you, and now you WANNA. Look further. Let us know. A hop onto facebook at that strange podcasts and send us a message. Let us know talk to us or email us at contact at that strange dot net I. Mean we love to hear from you honestly in any way that you that you choose to reach out. That is true. We just got a new. Website. Thanks to Ryan. Ryan you WANNA. Share some of that stuff to absolutely so. I changed a couple of things. So if you go to that strange dot net, that's GonNa take you to our block. Now on that blog, you're actually gonNA find a number of links to all the different places where you can find and listen to our podcast and as we continue to experiment with different ideas. It's good to kind of check back there from time to time and see what we're up to. Now, if you do have an idea contact at that strange dot net. It's super super easy, and if you do have an idea, please reach out to us. All right. Well, thank you for tuning in and checking us out and we will see you on the next one. Alex, Chat. And we are that street.

Bob Lazar Bob Earth George knapp Roy Ryan investigative reporter Las Vegas Honda Multiple Times Bob Actually alien technology Edward Teller physicist MIT Netflix UFO Los Alamos US Zeta Tesla