FTP119: Bonnitta Roy - Ego & Group Practices
Hey guys welcome back. Our guest today is Benita Roy. She's an author philosopher and teacher WHO's focusing on building greater capacities for human sense making. She has a wealth of experience working with groups and in her work. She integrates cognitive science phenomenology and she gone with emergent themes and transformative education leadership self organization in complexity science in part one of our interview. We talk about group processes deconstructing the EGO and shadow work group settings. You'll find all the links and show notes for this episode at future thinkers dot org slash one hundred eighteen now. Let's dive into the interview. Hey this future thinkers where we talk about how to adapt to a changing world build more resilience upgrade culture and society and create meaning and purpose with your hosts. Mike it'll end Elva so Benita. Welcome thanks for joining us. This is we've been watching a lot of your content lately so we're excited to be talking today. Yeah congratulations I feel like I'm a little bit part of your family now. Yeah yeah we were just talking before we started. We don't know what to do with with our kids. When we do these podcasts episodes. We've got nowhere to put them. So if you hear some squawking in this episode then it's not. It's the baby always me. Yes so yeah. There is an example. So my first question for you is. How do you deal with the tendency of groups to get trapped in this never ending cycle of creation and deconstruction of personal and interpersonal problems? So I don't go there directly one of the things that I've noticed it depends like what situations I already created a scenario in my head. So it's different if I know that. Sometimes you guys actually have courses. That's different than if you're doing group process right because when you have a course you become more of I have knowledge on going to give you some Suggestions whereas when you truly joint bid process you're inside culture itself and so everything you say is up for deconstruction by the group right. So so the scenario. I'm getting answer in his. When you're actually trying to be participate in the group process itself and one of the things is I tend to. I don't think you should go there directly. I don't think you should point out that. Someone's Egos talking or point out this. I've always had this problem with the traditions because they keep yelling at the ego and every time you talk to the EGO. You're actually rarefied yet. So a lot of group process has to do with performance. We're always trying to avoid performance contradiction. You know so. For example. We don't want to England obviously to yell at any girl but we also don't want to ratify the EGO by confronting and the question. The question is who are you talking to? Who Are you act what? Who Are you speaking with? When you're when you're goal is to maybe dissolve some of the round resolve that the ego structure. And what are the kind of moves that you can do where You know g move where you are actually working with the forces that dissolve the Eagle itself like the EGO is a stable construction under certain conditions. And it's not a stable structure under other conditions and you're actually just trying to cultivate conditions in which the EGO is not as able structure and or what other types of south can someone anger themselves in but if you directly go to deconstructing the ego and then you can do that But I think you'll find that it can be very frustrating and yeah so. That's kind of a meadow view. You can make more particle question out of that. Actually my question would be. Do you have any direct tips for kind of bypassing the ego win it comes up Or or bringing it to someone's attention suffers to have imagine. What am I speaking with? I see the the ego as energy arising and then I say what am I speaking with? If there's no ego than what is is not a structure like what is arising that. I'm trying to dance with And I tried to really visualize in that so much of you know image but talk to enter in to the felt sense that there is something beyond or beneath something else. That's happening in this dance so I'm not even going there. It's like it's like a whole approach. The Eagle comes to be sliding context. It's like it's like yes. I address that like sometimes. There's a hundred different ways your responses than become spontaneous. But like one time I was teaching in something. This one man was quite aggressive. This young guy and then he just starts downloading the all. This stuff is coming at you know instead of getting addressing what he was saying. I was just like wow. That's a lot of energy and I just kind of sat back. I don't even know what he said I was like. Wow that energy really had come up so when he was finished Do you feel better now an inept. I thought it was a joke question but really and then he reflected. He's like yeah. I feel better now. You see I didn't. It wasn't like I even I wasn't bothered with what the construction the EGO was making us trying to figure out like. Where's that coming from? What what function is it serving in the organism? A you know and and Working trying to work at that level And actually what came out of those? He you know he reflected he said yeah and then a little while later we had a break and he came back and he said. I know why that happens. You see so. Every people have reflexive aspect organism will be self reflective but under certain conditions you create more potential for that and other other conditions. You're actually Raya finding the very structures You're trying to dissolve. And you know this is really tricky work but I know that you guys have a lot of experience and you can perhaps play around. We've got MU. That's that's one example My own journey a have to admit Was helped by training horses because when you train horses a lot of energy a lot of what can look like aggression or this or that you know you you you start when you're young training you ask. Why is that Horse Mad at me? Or why are they stubborn? Or why this and then you realized they don't have a story this just kind of a dance of energy and sometimes the energies and up in sometimes it's confused or sometimes it's free flowing and so even by the time. I started Trading stallions you know really you see all this energy coming at you and it's just energy you know in your cell because I will. People will project an ego structure and story on onto horses. And then they resort abusive techniques because they're fighting with a structure. That's not fair. That's not in the horses experience but I did A. I DID A horse workshop. Once with a group of people who then some of them went right into group process and this one woman was having a difficult time in her new boyfriend happens to be very. They're very disruptive she was having a very difficult time and then on the second day she was like. Wow they're just horses and she didn't need it to dehumanize people she was using what she had learned and so like even this notion of the Eagle has to be distraught can deconstruct. The these are stories that are eagles make meaning out of other people out of the energy of tensions to actually caught in. Recombinant recombination recumbent. Ego is stop you know. So That's how I've avoided I've I've tried not to even if I don't see. See the Eagle in. Yeah I see the energy I can. Talented structure can feel that it's contraction. But I try not to speak to it or speak about it because tends to ratify that. It's real you know. Now that's different than when I naturally doing courses on The I ne- mind complex when it's online how's IT PRE constituted phenomenologically. Then we talk about it as a holistic system and then so then. We're actually talking about how it's constructed how it arises naturally. How you know how we can talk about this. Maybe in very early childhood experience how these primary schemers primitive Egos and you know we can talk about it in a kind of instruction to instructive way but in group process I try not to shine a light on it either. Positively or negatively. I just don't talk to and I sit back and I try to say what's arising here. Energetically felt sense or I don't even try to. Psychology is it. Oh the eagles wounded or you know I because that's also a little bit. It's more subtle but I try to kind of dance with the Energy. And visualize a spacious nece or a state out where those energies are pleasant and in let myself speak from their whatever comes out or maybe sometimes nothing comes out a. Lotta Times surprising. Wow where did that come true? Even that's an appropriate response. 'cause you just surprise your genuinely surprised you know like there's a spike in energy. Oh my God you know. And then Yeah and kind of taking it from there. So one thing. I noticed at the beginning of the story. That you're telling about the guy who just downloaded all of that energy onto you Was the way you addressed. It seemed to be first of all. You seem to have a knowledge of where it was coming from and that it wasn't about the content of what he was talking about. It was more of the emotional center and then it seemed like you only address the emotional part and that stood out to me is is a good technique. Even though he didn't explicitly stated. Yeah so here. I want to be a little pedantic and make a distinction. We make it my courses and that is the difference between affect which is what the body's doing and emotion and emotion is a story on top of what the body's doing so with this distinction semantic distinction. I wasn't paying attention to his emotion. I noticed that the body was doing something different. I mean his literally physically outside inside and there was kind of a spike in in energy happening and Yeah so one of the things we did when he came back and he said. I think I know why that happened in. We have been working together for a while. He 'cause I imported that story about what she was saying and I was mad at the story. He you know he let some energy. That was like a little difficult. The woman did have some kind of emotional energy and he made a big story The story was like I gave her. I gave her more space than he fought I should have because she was kind of. I knew what she was kind of saying was new agey so he had the story that I was being a favourite to him. Knocked her out what he was fighting with. Nothing in the wrong. He was fighting with the story. That was imported. See his body got him comfortable. And what the mind does is. It serves Reasons for why you might become so all right. It's evolved to say you know is it? This is at and a Lotta Times. Those reasons are just these stories so in storied and so then he started fighting with the with the story instead of just paying attention to what the body was doing and processing that so when I say affects is they're just like everything else they come and they go and they take time they take right there like the like the breast in the heartbeat and if he had stayed at that level it would have just been a rhythm in the space but he jumped the miners up a story. He didn't notice he got into the story really fast. And then then you have more than just the affect. You have kind of a vicious cycle between the story that then then then then turns up the Unpleasant tree in the body so that Stab we we tried to We tried to Do exercises in my course to try to get closer to the Tago when the when the feeling in your body toggles into a story so you get better at better noticing just before that happens you can deal with it at its origin and that's an exercise that people get very very good at a done it and then some people be like. Wow there's proto thoughts I can tell even before it's thought the quality of the The sensation starts to get a little like a little bit like indigestion in. I know that that's GonNa turn into our thoughts so I swallow it then at this really you know you can get really good at this and so you see everything. I'm talking about deconstruct the EGO. But none of the practices talk about the EGO. They just say this is what happens. Can we noticed that you know these are the conditions under which the structures are dissolved? Come you know one thing. I'm noticing a lot in group practices and it happened quite a bit earlier on last year. And we've we've kind of accepted the conversation from that point and I don't think we've really brought it up but there's this question of of when am I done processing my trauma and especially in that group setting like when is it time to put that to bed if that's even necessary and then go out there in the world and do something so this is a really good question and it So get us. Some of the language from rea- Back System. You know she says that there's there's socal of presence where you're learning how to be present with each other to not have so many triggers not have your ego involved not you know all these biases and all these these inadequate ways of discourse conversation. That's a circle of presence. How can we just be five people in a room and start from square one? You know there is no square one. We all have all this baggage and all these reforms ideas all his condition but basically she calls it. The Circle of presence in. We can argue. There is some argument That this is actually a skill at were reclaiming from our past that. We actually used to know how to do this. It's hypothetical but you do see that. A lot of them are employing skills like ritual and some of these older structures to make this happen so understanding that. There's that at one face. And then she says the purpose of circle of presence is to be able to create a circle of creation where you are coming which is what. I call insight practice where the group is coming up with insights in awareness and orientations perspectives. That were not held by anyone in that space before And so your question is when do we went is our have we done enough in. I as to get to the second phase now I think that some people I don't think you have to do the first phase one hundred percent. I think that some people have this idea of people becoming you know one hundred percent clean and then we can get onto things. I think. That's that's really a mistake and the other reason why it's mistake is because If you're spending too much time investigating your psyche as a group that psyche will invent new territory as you explore. It's an infinite game Is What does psyche does so So you know I know. People who do internal family systems. And they're like you know and then the parts create parts in themselves in the. They're they're mapping out this territory of and so that's what the psychic does the psyche is like a fission reactor. It creates early early. On in the child's life it creates primary Schema and then internal working models then the eagles structure and this is what I e does so It can be an endless endlessly cursive so So I think that there is a real phenomenon happening in some of these circles with were especially in the west week over psychologists stuff so where that's happening it's the same with when a circle gets like a you projecting or am I interacting or. Is that real you know? And and those kinds of conversations are crazy they're crazy to try to analyze because when the psyche of You transfer is a counter transference. You hear all this nonsense okay So to take a strong stand on that. Those are not Those are not Beneficial performance says to do in group space. I think is is important. And so then the question is what are we. What are we envisioning as the fruition of this first phase And there's comes apart Comes appoint any groups life where you just say what if we put this to a question a real question or a real test or action in the world that both ups the ante but also will give you some sense if that that groups groups going to move I think that I think being very clear. What is what is the goal. What is the fruition of the first phase? What would that look like? What is the minimum adequacy? You need And the other thing is I think that a few you can take a few people who have very good skills and bring them into group where people don't and as long as they're not exponentially exaggerating those skills they can increase the capacity so you can move for example yourselves into a group of experts. We don't really have dialogical skills but you can make a place for them in terms of their expertise and still have A productive session. That's in this case productive. Means you solve the problem or moved up quite inquiry long not song. Everybody's trauma in one of your other interviews. You talked about sort of the three stages of development and I'm not sure what which model is's but you talked about the first stage as people project everything outwards like the problem is outside out there. It's you know other people's crowd are I have to fix something in the world? I have to save people. It's all externally focused. Then something happens on the knee realize. Oh actually all of this stuff is a projection of internal state and so then they start focusing on fixing their internal state than doing healing and constant nasal getting navel-gazing and then the third stage is that they realize. Oh actually none of this is about me at all. And I'm completely inconsequential in this. I'm more of an instrument of something larger. I really love that framework. It's very simple but it really illustrates something quite well. Yeah and so the people that spend too much time. You know trying to heal their trauma. They it's kind of narcissism you start to see there's a kind of narcissism right now the whole point in the world is evolved so that you can heal your drama also want to say something about trauma and that is Which I every year I had with my new cards. We have to make the distinction. You know there's existential reality about about being human and not all of that. Existential pain is trauma. It you know we have to be able to separate what is trauma from you know you. Have you have to individually from your parents as very painful and it leaves memories and it has archetypes or has primary Schema and it's a process you have to go through but that's not trauma. I mean people like hold onto like I've been through. I felt through primary school. I've been through a break up with my boyfriend like they just hold onto this like like you know. Now they're Israel trauma the Israel trauma and the thing is there are fabulous stories of people who've been through awful trauma and they shine they shine as people and so this is kind of like when you're moving from the second phase to the third you realize you've made the whole thing about you. You know so yes. It feels great when you go into the Sonogram and you realize if I myself than my actual reality changes but then you get mesmerized. We've got an and you start to think like that's that that whole that whole thing is about you that your whole spiritual growth is about satisfying. You are getting cracking the code. I call it cracking the code. So that now you're happy and Jerry Field people move out of that. I find I have never been in a group. That's been able to successfully move into the circle of creation which I called collective insight practice which is why I don't do group process because of waiting to to collective insight practice and I can in my students I hear there between some of our between the second one in the third and you can hear people say they used to use phrases like it's not about me on my instrument or spirit is working through me. You start saying that. There's something that's coming through there. It's not something they have to do. And you start seeing. It's not like work I have to do on myself it's Work is being asked of me. You know and of course people with severe trauma shadows. That could be ugly. But in many cases People are coming are moving through that second phase and realizing they're not finished but it doesn't have to be achieved you know. It was on Joe. Brewer was on your. Your movie talked about this on your interview. But he talked about the difference between achievement. Problems in practice problems. You know your psyche isn't something to be achieved. It changed the perfect psyche. It's something to be continuously practiced through the Abbot question. Feel we might as well go there like what is the purpose. What is what is why. Are we all so excited about group process at this time in history? What is the purpose? What are we seeing as the benefits? what other or one of the claims we are making you know. This is a question that I had when I first started. In two thousand twelve the claim was at this was happening in these groups group processes you know people are making claims of group in fighting and all these things in an. I started participating in them and I didn't actually see that they were achieving claims that they were making. And so. That's maybe an interesting question to make a bummer. But well yeah I think I mean. We don't claim a whole lot. Aside from the just being there is a community in there are people who are talking about the set of subjects in doing these set of practices. And maybe you might be interested in doing it. It's not like we're advertising enlightenment or something in in the courses or the group the groups although I think some of the work relates to that question and we've especially been discussing a lot of the jet McKenna Books About Spiritual Enlightenment in the calls which I think is interesting. But it's irrelevant really. It's the community is kind of the sales focused right. Come in me like minded people that kind of thing but there is transformational experiences that individuals are going through. I would say within the groups that are just a matter of doing the work and doing the processes and it's a lot. It's a hell of a lot more individual work then group process work. I mean group. The group seems to just be like okay. You're not insane. I mean you're you're you seem to be on the right track and it's more of a confirmation of what most people seem to intuitively already understand when they're doing the work that's really it. Yeah Ellen show the other part of your question. Why is there sort of society? Wise there is so much addressed in group practice and I don't know what the case is other people and I don't want us you that the same to me. It seems that People are realizing that the sort of individualistic approach. That was really popular in the previous decades. That there is something incomplete about it that we need to earn relearn to relate to each other and actually it seems to me that a lot of these group practices are not inventing anything new there. Just rediscovering what people used to know. How To do intuitively before? Yeah and the and the questions are more sophisticated like the questions we have about ourselves or more sophisticated but the way the group can haul that is is is probably evolutionary old. An embedded in human system Yeah I like to look at these phases of group or community practice as asynchronous transformation of the individual. So it's a synchronous transformation. But every but it's coursing through everybody right so If you if you bleed out the time you could conceivably experience as a simultaneous transformation but it seems to I have a synchronous kind of a rhythm to it and I think that's very helpful for people because if you say you know it's a transformational circle But it has this a synchronous rhythm than people will still feel inside the circle and notice that there's different spotlights of transformation little insights happening here and there that don't necessarily land with everyone but if everyone was participating than that's off like when have shined so I think that's a claim that this were can make the brand new future thinkers members portal is now alive develop your sovereignty and self with our in depth courses get access to our weekly since making calls joined the QNA's with past podcast guests and much more become a future thinkers member today at future thinkers at org slash members. I've never really heard anyone talk specifically about the role of shadow work in group format. It seems to be and I mean the experience that we have with it is. It does seem to be quite heavily individualistic. But there's something to circling that seems to especially as people are watching something arise in each other and in themselves. It seems to point that they're a shadow material but as far as the practice of doing shadow work is that does that have a place in group group dynamic so I'm just gonNA answer by Talking about how Perhaps address shadow work. You know one of the problems with some of these practices is they. They become Like the whole notion of shadow work is already loaded. You know so then at an so what I talk about is I like to look at So when I come into group space one of the things that I think is important is to de emphasize the The individual and look at it more in terms of the group is constantly shaping itself and shaping each other right because this is kind of where we want people to understand and so like when you enter a group space. So I'll talk about it like this when you enter public space immediately. You're going to adopt certain persona. That's when we're going to. It's going to shape. You need it league like When we call people call a collective insight retreat here just calling. It is already shaping. The people it's ringing questions and so the thing is working itself and this is again like it's not about me only about me. It's how do I respond to the process that's underway. How's the process asking me to respond? Oh carry so instead of saying you have shown you have to work on something. Which again puts a spotlight on the carthy unit of inquiry the Unit and inquiries grew and in this present moment. And so what I will say. You know what we'll talk about is how Again I I spend a lot of time talking about how in early childhood you have a me before you have an I and the me is the way your parents look at you. You realize that you're an object for their perception and that what you do without me changes your relationship to that to your caregivers a little later on you realize the me that your father sees us all gendered. Stereotypes is different than my main. Your mother sees and you start to make primary scheme was about gendered roles in the me is online and this becomes the social me. You know so when we're in social space. We're always trying to pick from our little box of tools. The object that's going to in the public sphere so the way I work with that is in if I'm facilitating a novice group. I'll say all be sitting around people with a saying something and then I'll say you noticed a lot of stuff going on your minds is like all the stuff going on your minds and then you have a gatekeeper. That would never say that like there's a whole lot going on the other. There's the gatekeeper. Like what does that gatekeeper. What is its function you know? Let's look at the gatekeeper. And you know our people be quiet and tease them. Like all you people Reich. I know there's a lot going on there you know and So we noticed that there's a whole lot going on the doesn't make it out into public space so we look at that and then So we don't say you have to expose it or anything but you're looking at how what's under the hood here and we all have it you know. And so Yeah so what's what's what's not making. It has something to do with shadow right now. Some people might put it in that frame. So what would not? But I don't really I try to be much more human about it like I say I'll say something. Why not just kicking from different experiences? Something like people were in a pickle because you come to these groups and you want to be seen. I mean everybody really wants to be seen but everybody is terrified to be seen so we hide so we put each other. And that goes 'cause like on that you can't see me on my mother or my partner but I actually get keep who I am. And so how is it possible for me to be seen so we just all stacked talk about like what what how this thing functions? And it's okay. It's okay how it functions we just need to become aware of how the functions and yeah so. That's kind of you know I. I have a different way of languaging different way of working in in spaces than some other Techniques out there it seems your responses. Come from this very embodied like you're you're not looking at anything theoretically almost with my question. It's almost a very theoretical question. That doesn't play out in the way that I framed the question. Yeah it's it's interesting. I know people who are really coaches. They've been through like landmark or Avatar. There's these programs and they work a lot with shadow and then I've worked with them in They come to the point. Where is very sophisticated right? This very high level where they realize I help them realize their shadow is just a structure. You may so we're like we make a structure the concept of shadow and then we spend it all lives trying to get rid of it and I say why making up in the first place. Why take me all about release complexity? Why take that first step? And that's where I think leverages like so you have all these people going around in these groups talking about shadow Sha that it's the it's the actual step that is in the way I want to take that step. It's interesting. How much pain is built up around the structure of of having a past trauma to work through whereas just looking at it without judgment often can just be enough. Yeah it is interesting. How much people build up these structures in their mind before they're able to actually tackle them or whatever you WANNA call it. Construct them exactly so that comes up in space out say if. I'm being really playful shadow shadow. Where is it like is it like where is it but or I'll say if you didn't have the concept of shadow? What would you be experiencing now good question well and then I'll has? That's what you're actually experiencing. Everything else is a thought and is it helpful or is it not helpful to me. That's off the work is literally. It's not easy but that's all it is. Everything else is a hybrid complex vacation of professional skills that sells the price of the ticket. So there that's what I really as a community you know we have to because in. This is to aunt my answer to wise hydro buses because it also has proliferated in an an economic system where complexity in hybrid complexity and the illusion of the priestly professional class to do some direct work on yourself is part of what creates the dummy hand in the interest. And so now. I'm not saying people do this. Consciously this is audited but we need people that can release the complexity and do this level of facilitation. It doesn't mean people. Go ahead yeah. Of course it's still hard but you don't want you WanNa be V it's like you. WanNa be a surgeon the laser you don't WanNa be a surgeon in the confederate army. Where would they would take a a saw? Incorr- off your leg. We we want this technology to be like laser surgery and we need people ball to really understand what works in these spaces and what just increases the complexity infinite complexity of the human condition. I really really glad you were at the south. Because yeah this idea that you can get rid of the or should get rid of the AGO or the shadow is so preposterous to me. Because they are structures you could say evolutionary structures that have a function and they do something and by trying to remove them. Exactly like trying. To sever your limb. It's it's even if it is possible. It's not useful or healthy so it seems to me that just allowing it in observing Accepting it is a much healthier route and you know if you if you have an infection in the hand you just look at it and you deal with the infection rather than chopping off the whole hands. You know that that does bring up something that I'm just noticing now about maybe a incoherence and definitions that we're using like when I hear you talk about what I would term ego deconstruction. Aligns with my idea about it but I. I think I'm using a term that is not clicking with you like you something about the ego deconstruction thing and I think you've is well. It's not really working for you. So what would you call it like this deconstruction of frameworks that make up your identity? That aren't necessarily true. Just like we would say. That's the shadow. What's the term if we're not gonNA use the EGO deconstruction? Maybe I can answer it in in. My case is just observing that something is a structure because that in a way kind of makes it less sticky when when you can quiet the mind enough and just observe that. It's doing something like Oh you know it's engaging in this process are it's like I have this feeling in the triggers. This thought. Oh interesting just observing that Kinda makes less makes less have A. How would I describe it? Have less of a a looping function. Yeah so I think that's a good refunding because we you know we can go off in all directions so I will you know what I guess. I'm pushing back against is problem ties in Ego. I think that's a little bit of what are you saying But I would say that it's important to understand What do we mean by ego what what is like what's undergo heart and there's egoism ego and So so for example we talk. I can talk about primary affect so primate affect my body is. What's what's what you know. My heart goes up or goes down with neurochemical superman. What my hormones are doing What my blood pressure is doing. My program -CEPTION my dizzy. You know like this is days. Some of my muscles are contracted summer expanded. So there's something my body's doing and this is not ego it's free. Egon work potentials of basically inferior Mammalian self. Okay so I can put that aside. That's not what I mean by Ego. And then salt we call those ethics and then there's the perceptual system. You know not which is just your What you see here taste smell. Your Body. Sensations your appropriate option this again. His Carnegie or Mammalian Animal human-animal Nature. That's not ego. So then what is ego right? What is what then. If those those are pre ago Dan what is ego and so to me. It's always seems like the storyteller that builds an identity in attempts to explain. Those things is story this is why Suzanne Cooke grinders work. Everybody that is researching Eagle developing. They has questions their sentence completion tests. Because it's the kind of story will tell so I don't show what I teach is to notice how when the story that mind serves a story. You know something's your babies crying we get a little narrow -tated in mind serves up a story. I I remember once being on a plane and this baby in front of me was literally way off the charts. Some people are last with very difficult children and I could tell the parents. She must've been on two years old and I could tell the parents figuring out their program for when she was having tantrums and on talking about Livid screaming like for twenty thirty minutes and I watch myself go from tolls frigging parents. What they're bad parents. Why don't they do something about it to like? Oh my gods child isn't so much fainter like that stupid child. I would Muslim later. Something and the and I could see these stories. Just come up one after another. You know kind of you know trying to give me some explanation or trying to suggest something I could do. And then once. I realized that I was just watching them. Come up and come up and then slowly. My body wasn't irritated. It was just noise like I was kind of like. Oh listen to listen to the frequencies or something and then you know. The child calmed down. And I have a feeling that like the something that like. I was like probably got caught until like energizing that energy or something you know and so literally the body just serves up all these even more happy you know the body serves up this story like. Oh maybe you spend more time with him. There is a story right. You have a eighties fish on time with him. And then you get in that story and of course you know that's dry goes the first little thought starts to build this whole story about your happily ever life now and then you go to your friends in that story so then the question becomes like a you know once you start working with historic is a couple of interesting thing happens and you realize that you're tortured by the story with a big part of you. That doesn't wanNA live without one. You feel the mind will not be satisfied whittling while like if I said to someone like I said before. Like if you didn't have the concept of shadow what would your experience be and you realize like well I actually would be disappointed because there's not enough drama and now you know now you start to realize oh well that's the function the story has in your life. It's kind of a drama coal. If you want to live like that like the meanest maybe and you can watch TV or something. But I don't probably problema ties it. We want to understand first of all why the mind serves up stories. Are they Profitable beneficial and then if you notice that he actually liked them then you understand your complicit with that's why you keep generating them because you're actually something is satisfied by having the and so a lot of people are in drama. I mean kids do that. You know when you're irritated with your sister when you're a kid you kinda like how to make a fight and then it becomes a Fi and when you look back on it or at the time you realize you talk about is if you didn't WanNA fight but energetically wanted to get in a fight. That's where he kinda provoked it you know in so you start to see. There's up the sum. Total of human condition is is really fascinating end for us to understand. It is more important for us to fight with some of it it. It's here way it is. That's a great distinction between Deconstruction and just becoming aware. I'm I'm glad you made that distinction because I keep using the term ego deconstruction when it actually should be differentiated between those two. That's helpful. It's more like Eagle understanding. What IS THE EGO. And how you can. You can literally learn how to see how there's composing itself. Oh there. It is composing itself. Oh there's a story you know yeah. It seems to the awareness part of it seems to relate to where the egos actually necessarily he. Don't WanNA deconstruct everything. You want to know where some elements are necessary like. I want my child to behave well in public and not disturb other people and that kind of thing so there's this kind of Ego ick element to that of like. Don't embarrassed me kid which is actually kind of useful to help the KID. Behave properly Yeah okay for. Sometimes I'll just I'll see I'll see this story and look at it and I'll say even in groups face on like I'm just going with it. I just feel tugged and sometimes that gets a Lotta push but then it turns out sometimes pushed back has been helpful to move things forward. You know but if you can slow slow what is happening automatically down so you can see how it works. You have more choice and then you do that for five or six years and eventually what shows up is more helpful than not. Somehow you shaved the way it works. You don't have to be so vigilant you know. The whole point is not that I can credibly vigilant your whole life. You know. There's something here that have been trying to pinpoint in. It's coming from experience so I don't I don't haven't figured out how to put words to it yet but there's this thing of actually you know it relates to what you said when people enter into a group practice and they want to appear smart they want to figure out where they rank against everyone in the group so they want to project some ideal version of themselves and there's something of that related to a desire to have an outcome be a certain way. I WANNA be perceived a certain way I want this call to work out a certain way you know a lot of it's to do with ranking but there's also just an attachment to results of there in the world which to me seems to be a basis for the egos storyteller thing and I haven't found much of a basis outside of that. It's like that seems to be centerpoint than I thought so. So the ranking is gus structure that your stories take right so We said the EGO has to do with a story but then you can notice that the stories you tend to that there are some basic structures called there said that there's one mother structure money the other structures so you start to seeing that your stories are helpful even the helpful ones whether they're helpful or not their day. Makita structure so ranking is one of the structures. This is this one really big and One of the keys signs to there's basically six different Structures ranking as one the two biggest ones are ranking and belong belonging people have high belonging needs get very nervous when people rank because it seems like other people being excluded enright guards. It's an instinct you walk into a room. Maybe it's just a big conference in year at dinner. You just look around and you sit with someone. Maybe it's not someone who presented but it turns out to be a big Cahuna like you just have an instinct for the alpha or something you know but and that's not a problem. I think these typologies They actually curiously map onto the six. Buddha bodies. So that's kind of interesting when you tank on and so one of the Davies at the end the you know you find like what. You're kind of archetypal pattern news but the Keita's when you're driven by a subtle sense up it's never enough. It's never enough. So people are ranker's even though they achieve all kinds of things they don't think they've achieved anything and it's never enough and so you become you become First of all neurotic but you know you become aggressive and non ethical almost in your pursuit of something. That's not facial belongers. Same Way they have so many friends and it's never enough is never enough you know. They feel like they're worthless and nobody likes them in from the Outside. You like what so? It's not that the typology is bad. It's when it's driving you with a subtle sense that it's never enough. You never let yourself say wow I have a lot of friends and they step by knee or well and a lot with my life and you know I don't really like being on the circuit but I'm chasing this invitation on that invitation really. What's the real reason why? Because I don't think I've done enough. It's never enough so the typology is not a problem but the and then when you get rid of what's driving that it's not enough then usually your life spreads out a different way and you make much you make much more of a garden variety of choices rather than the same choice so the way that works is the. Eagle has stories the stories if you look at them you'll see their structure there there's a predominant structure it's unconsciously driving you to the sense of. There's never enough. So it's kind of neurosis to get the full episode. Go to members dot feature thinkers dot org for five bucks a month. 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