What Everyone Needs to Know About Design & The Science of Conversation


Today on something, you should know a simple way to spend less of the money in your wallet. Then we all need to know a little bit about design for things like websites brochures. What colors work what fonts to us? So fonts are really interesting. There's a great research which showed that when a fought as hard to leave, people thought that mean of attacks tax was difficult. Don't basically I tell clients don't use foncier hard to read then why you should take your blood pressure readings from both arms, not just one and science and conversation, and why conversations on zoom can be so unsatisfying at the end of Zoom Conversation Glover it might be with. You feel exhausted Qui-. because. You're always on attempting to get into rapport with people that sometimes. You can't see all this today on something you should know. Something, you should know fascinating Intel. The world's torment. And practical advice you can use in your life today. somethingyoushouldknow Mike. Hi and welcome to something you should know episode number. I'm not really sure actually. Four hundred and forty something forty, six or forty seven, and it doesn't really matter. We're GONNA start. The program today by helping you keep more of your own money, and it all has to do with the way that the brain conceptualizes cash. This is according to Forbes Dot Com. We know that you're more likely to spend more with a credit card than a debit card, and you're more likely to spend more with a debit card than with cash so just by using cash instead of plastic. You will spend less money, but it gets more interesting than that. The next time you need cash, skip the and go into the bank and ask for new fifty dollar bills why? Because research says you're more willing to spend older bills than newer bills, and you're much more willing to spend smaller denomination bills than larger ones, so skip the plastic and stuff your wallet with new fifty dollar or even one hundred dollar bills and see if you don't keep more of your own money. And that is something you should know. Every one of us you included has had to design something a resume of Flyer, a website, a logo a brochure. And, even if you didn't design it outright, you were asked your opinion, you know here's your website. What do you think this is happened to me I? I don't know how many times in my career and when people ask me. What do you think? Well what I think is. How the Hell would I know? I'm not a designer I. don't really know what to think. Generally when you have a brochure or a website or a logo, you want to present an image, and often you want to motivate people to act or illicit some sort of response but I don't know what works and what doesn't you probably don't either but Susan wine? Chink does Susan Has A. In Psychology, she is the chief behavioral scientist and CEO at a company called the team w INC, and she is also an adjunct professor at the University of Wisconsin She's the author of a book called. Things. Every designer needs to know about people and she has researched what the science says about what motivates people what gets people to gauge respond and what people think when they look at your logo or your brochure or your website? And here she is hi, Susan Hi. How are you doing I'm great? Thanks so to start by telling me a little bit about how you got into this. And what it is, you do when it comes to designing things how people respond to them. Yeah well. You know I have a PhD in psychology and I've had a career in applying psychology to the design of stuff, primarily the design of technology and software and APPS, but really the design of anything I mean I've worked on on how you should change your museum, so people spend more time looking at paintings, but most of my career has been. Whether we know about people, and how should that affect how we design was? I said in the beginning and I think it's true for a lot of people when somebody designed something for us, or we're trying to design something ourselves. Most of us are just going on, but we think our opinion. Gut feeling well. This sort of looks good this this might work, but it's not based in anything other than a really other than opinion, sometimes what may make sense to you and might feel right to you is not necessarily what's going to work for everybody or not necessarily going to work for your particular target audience, so if you can make those decisions, not is based on a gut feeling. We're not just based on your opinion, but you can actually make it based on what the research shows I. You know you have a better product and more effective product for what you're trying to do. So, let's talk about some of the decisions you have to make when you're designing something like if you're doing a web page or a brochure line length, is it better to have the text? Go all the way across, or should you have little chunky paragraphs? It only go part of the way across, and then you have to scroll down more to read it. I I have no idea what what the science says, so, but my, but my gut would be to. That shorter is better. All right so here's what the research shows. Shorter, most people prefer shorter line length they do. However the research shows that you actually read faster. With a longer line light, and and you can count is called characters per line. A hundred characters per line which I can tell you as a really lot. If if I showed you a page of text that had one hundred characters per line. You'd say to me, Oh. My God nobody's GonNa read that, but hundred characters per line is actually increases reading speed. However when you're you know when you're doing a webpage like. Do you really care that? Someone finishes reading that text in like two seconds faster than than not know because preference is important, because if I look at the screen. And say Oh my God that's too much test text I'm not GonNa read it at all right. You don't want that, so this is a case. And there are several of these cases where there's a preference versus performance, and in this case this most of the time I say to people go with what they prefer. So what are the things that we know work in terms of pulling people in and getting them interested in drawing them in and what are the things that don't work? You know one of the really interesting things. There's too. Too I WANNA. Talk about they're both visual. One is what's called the fuse of form facial area. They FFA. So you have a particular place in your brain sexually deep in your mid brain that is sensitive to faces, so it works largely unconsciously so when you see a face, and that's loosely defined yet looks like two is a nose, no mouth when you see a face, it grabs our attention automatically on consciously, and so especially faces is large enough that you really see it that this face and if the person is looking straight out. At you from the page so anytime you GonNa you grab people's attention. Have have a face and how that person looking right out at you. Also we know that if that faces showing a lot of emotion doesn't even matter whether it's positive or negative doesn't matter if they look happy or fearful, but is just a high emotion that will grab attention, so that's something that will grab attention now. The other thing that I think is really interesting about vision is we really don't understand we don't get enough. Credence to peripheral vision, so you have two kinds of issues. You have the vision when you're looking straight ahead. And that's called Central Vision, but when you are looking straight ahead, there's you can see things out from the corner of Your Eyes. You actually don't see them very clearly, but the research shows us that things in your personal vision have a huge effect on. You will use our personal vision to get emotional information in so if there's a image in the personal vision that you know is scary or Has a high emotion that will grab our attention and make us stay on that page, and also will use our personal vision to tell us whether we're in the right spot, so imagine you're at a restaurant website and you know you're looking straight ahead at the menu in the middle, but it on the sides. There's like pictures of food that unconsciously says Oh. Yeah, I'm on the right page. Page. I WANNA stay here. You know in terms of grabbing attention you WANNA use faces. You want to do something. Don't forget the peripheral vision look at a lot of websites. There's nothing in peripheral vision, the outskirts of the screener, all blank white right. They're not using not using that space to its best advantage, there has long been a phrase that sex selves does the Science back that up? Sex Cells. Research shows I mean I. Not saying that that means you should use that because the other thing obviously that you have to be concerned about is how does that affect your brand? And who does that annoy or who finds it offensive, but from a purely scientific point of view we, we have part of our brain. Called the old brain or the reptilian brain. It's part of our brain. That evolved longest ago. Basically that part of the brain is asking. Can I eat it? Can I have sex with it? Will kill me and because. That's such a strong on conscious filter. It means that we are extremely sensitive to images of food because that's the easy part. Any images of danger something horrible happening you know, a fire flood accident, and then also anything that is gives us an idea of sex. Is it that sex sells or sex? JUST GETS ATTENTION! So sex gets attention. The other thing that happens though you know in psychology, we talk about a heightened state of arousal and we don't mean that sexually. We mean that in any way, so if there's anything that gets your heart rate going you may. There's always like video ads on online or on on TV where the you know, there's like a almost a car accident, and then you find out that they're selling soda. You know doesn't have any. Do the car and route and the goal. There is just get your heart rate up. Because if they get your heart rate up, then you pay attention and the message sticks. We're talking today about how to design things what works what motivates people what what people like to see and we're talking with Susan Wine Chink her. And we're talking with Susan Wine Chink. The name of her book is one hundred things. Every designer needs to know about people. So Susan one of the first things. People think about when they sit down to design. A Web page or a brochure or whatever it is that they're this designing one of the first things they consider is color and font. So can you talk about those so fonts are really interesting first of all, we've been debating funds for literally hundreds of years, and basically these days especially, if you're talking about screens and mobile devices most font as long as it's not overly decorative, most font. Are Readable. People often have a preference for one font or another by that's a very individual preference, however, when the font gets so strange or decorative or to towel size when it gets a very hard to read a couple of things happen, there's a great research done which showed that when a font was hard to read, people thought. The meaning of the text was difficult, so a the example. The research I I really like is they gave people. Instructions for doing physical therapy exercises at home. Right so you go. The physical therapist yet were problem with your back. They exercises you. Go home and do them so for half of the people. They gave them the instructions in a font. That was very easy to read. On for the other half, they gave the instructions in a font that was kind of decorative, and it was harder to read. It wasn't impossible, but it was a little harder. And what they found was two things one was. If. The font was hard to read. People estimated that they asked people how long we'll take you to do these exercises when you get home. When the phone was hard to read, they estimated twice as long. As when the font was easy to read twice as long, they thought it would take them to do the exercise. And then they followed up and found that the people at the hard to read font were half as likely to actually do the exercises when they got home. So hard to read equals hard to do now, but here's something also a really other interesting set of findings about font I don't know if you've heard about system, one and system to thinking and we have a way of thinking that's really easy and intuitive, and then we have another way of thinking where we're thinking really hard concentrating. But when a font is hard to read, it triggers system to thinking. You you automatically unconsciously say Oh, this must be hard, but it sometimes especially, if it's in a learning situation that means you work harder added. You pay more attention to it. You say to yourself. Oh! I can't just skate by on this like this would be especially true if you were studying. If you're a student the research shows that students who had reading material all semester in a font that was harder to read actually worked harder spent more time and got better. It's hard material longer, but it was probably because they looked at it and said Oh man this is this is going to be tougher than I thought I'd better pay more attention and spend more time. So Yeah, it's so interesting things so. I tell clients don't use fonts that are hard to read you know. Make it easy to read especially. If you're doing something like a Berkshire website, you wanted to be inviting. Now in terms of collar color is. Again very individual. And as a lot to do with your brand, but what we know about caller is that if you use too many colors at the same time, then you lose the election again getting affect so the most attention getting like if you had if you had a web page and It was a sign up form, and all you wanted people to do is click on this one button like that was the most important thing on the page then you shouldn't have any other color anywhere. No color no color in images, no caller in the tax and then you just have the one bright button. 'cause that'll grab the most attention. But, in terms of what are there any colors that like you would never use because the science says this is just this makes people's. The science says you should not use in terms of specially you know foreground background like the font on words on top of background color. You should never get gotta be really careful that you have enough contrast if you use like a medium gray letters on a medium blue background than it's just hard to read, you also don't want to use red and blue. Or Red and green like red letters on a green background or read letters on a blue background or reverse that because that calls you on a fancy term is called Chroma, Stereo, APSIS and it actually causes the letters to look like they're vibrating, so that's particularly bad combination to use Yeah, otherwise you gotta pay attention to color meanings, which which are are cultural in nature. You know so. White. The in some cultures white is the yameen sterile, clean or white is what you know. Brides wear the wedding and other cultures. White is what you wear to a funeral. Some cultures red means you know lucky and happy, and another cultures red means stop and danger right, so you need to be careful based on the culture designing for as well. When you're designing something. Website Logo Brochure? Whatever you basically a creative function that you're performing? And, sometimes just getting started like where do is if you say to somebody okay, we're going to create a website well. God Jeez I don't what should that look? I don't even know where to begin. What about the creative process to kind of spur things on and and get people going when they have to basically create something from scratch? Creativity is amazing and the renew research on creativity shows us that there's three. Brain, networks that are involved in creativity and basically. What you do, if went any whenever you're thinking creatively solving a problem. You the best thinks to do our to concentrate on what it is. You're trying to create, or what the problem you wanNA solve. And that engages the first of the of the networks called the executive attention network. Then what you need to do is drop. It is go away. Do something else preferably something that does not require you to think much at all. So you need to give that part of your brain arrests like Gopher Walker work in the garden or you know anything so as long as you're not thinking that gives another part of your brain called the imagination network. Time to. Go through all the scenarios and check everything you know, and that's all happening unconsciously. then. We've all had this right. If you ever like you know our later a day later, you go, oh! I know I should do right. Have that ha moment? Well? That's the third brain network which is called the salient network. It is constantly monitoring what the imagination network is doing, and when it finds, an idea thinks is particularly good. It brings into consciousness and that's really how. How anytime you're being creative. You're going through that process whether you realize it or not, and there's things that you can do to help that process along right like. Like thinking of something very clearly, and then letting it go. And then you. We also know that sleep is important for that process. Even, a nap will help that process. So I I'm really fascinated with what's going on in the brain. When we're being creative I, know you say that using examples is always helpful in trying to motivate people, and it's very easy when you're trying to explain something to get very very abstract in and not be specific and not use examples. Yeah, you got to be concrete. You know we. We're pretty good. It abstract thinking but it. It really is hard work to think abstractly is hard work, so we have evolved to Tan the like to make quick decisions and be able to process information really quickly and examples allow us to do that and they allow us to tie what you're talking about. Tie It to something we already know, and that's very helpful, so yeah anytime. You're trying to get across information or teach someone something. Giving an example is really the best way to go, and if you know if it's appropriate and possible of visual examples great. Let's talk about what motivates people because I think people have opinions and some common practices that they think motivates people, but when you're designing something I mean W-. What do we know? What is the science? Say about what motivates and what doesn't. Yeah if you said Oh. I want people to use my product more. My service more than that you know. How can I do that a lot of times? People say oh. We'll reward them right if they get. Friends could join and give them you know extra something. We think of rewards as being a a really great motivator, and in is sometimes a good motivator. It's especially good. Good with dogs and and toddlers, but there are many more powerful ways to motivate people to take action for instance. One of my favorites is the idea of the self story, so we all have stories about who we are, and why we do the things that we do, and if you can connect your product or service to someone's self story, where if you can help them? Decide to change their self story. That's when you get the really. Deep meaningful. Motivational Change, so give me an example of of the self story of changing someone self story. How would that work? Let's say that I'm someone who has always used apple products. You know I have an Iphone I love my iphone. I have an apple laptop and you are interested in seeing if I will switch to android switch to android phone than I am very resistant because myself, story is that I'm an apostle person. But if you can get me to take a small step a small if you can give me to try and android fun if you can show me something cool that you can do their android fund that I can't do with my iphone. Then, you might be able to make a slight crack, and that's all story, and instead of me thinking of Oh. I'm an apple person. Maybe you can get me to think Oh, I'm a person who likes some of the new technology I'm a person that's open to ideas and then I might be willing to start to change, so you've got to think about. What is the operating self story and speak to that? Well I certainly know a lot more now than I did twenty minutes ago about design what motivates people and what gets them to respond and what doesn't work so I appreciate that Susan? Wine Chink has been my guest and the name of her book is one hundred things. Every designer needs to know about people. You'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Thank Susan Mike It's been great to talk to you, thanks. Every day you engage in conversation with people likely without giving it a whole lot of thought to how it works or how to make it better or how to be a more effective conversationalist. In fact, though there's a lot to it, how people speak to each other has been studied a lot, and there's some interesting science to how conversation works. Here to explain and discuss, it is David Crystal David is a writer editor, lecturer and broadcaster who has written or edited one hundred books. Is. Latest book is Let's Talk. How English conversation works. I David Welcome to something you should know. It's a pleasure. Mike Nice to see what's interesting when you think about it. How important conversation is to everyone I mean that's how we communicate with the world. That's how we present ourselves. We we engage in conversation and yet. I. Never got any formal training and here's how you have a conversation. Yeah, I think that's right I mean take the basic principle of conversation which is turned taking I speak then you speak than I. Speak then you speak, and of course you can overlap a little bit, and that can be interruptions and things, but on the whole. That's the basis of it all now. When does that start well? People have studied the development of communication in infants, and I mean over the first year of life have established that that turn taking principle is there from about three months. Oh of age you notice it when a mum for instance is feeding her little Baba. And while the. Food is being prepared. The mummers chattering away Oh. You're hungry. Yes, I know you well. Wait a minute. It's coming. It's coming and so. When the food is in the mouth whether it's a t tour, bottle or whatever it might be. Then, the bump shuts up. and. There's no sound and then out comes the bottle, and the baby gets wind it in some way and this chatter chatter chatter by the mum, and if the baby then makes a noise like a bird or something like that well, that's equivalent to a whole sentence really. Gets a reaction by the mother. And slowly there is a kind of to-ing and fro-ing, and to and froing. It's basis of interaction and it starts back young. It's always fascinated me how there are some people who are just brilliant conversationalist in the sense that they they hold your attention that that that you know like every word is right where it needs to be, and then there are people on the other end of the spectrum. Who just I mean it. They just bore the death idea. And and I wonder why. Because I'm sure they both think they're doing a pretty good job. And one is got it and the other one has totally missed it. To Be a good speaker you've got to be a good listener can be a ball very very quickly. If you do all the talking there's a lovely story and I can't remember the source of it now. where somebody said next to nothing in the course of this conversation. And afterwards the person he was talking to was observed to say he's. He's really good conversationalist, even though he'd said hardly anything at all because he was listening all the time. Has To be a balance I think if if people are astute listeners as well as quite competent speakers, they somehow are the develop a kind of rapport between themselves, so there's a balanced amount of compensation. You know you and I speaking together. We roughly at the end of the day. Say roughly the same amount to each other, and then we both feel the compensation has been a success. People who. Are Good at compensation I think. Move towards that goal. People who find it difficult to converse while they're in a kind of a downward spiral out they and When the other person senses that they're speaking to somebody who isn't so good at compensation well, they then tend to try to make up for that lack by speaking more, which puts the other person and even worse position, and so he goes on. I think it's the circumstances as much as the personality that's involved in. There does seem though to be some tactics or strategies at a I can hear it in the way you talk I haven't heard you say I'm or Once. I hear people those conversations with people that go. Well the The. Part of the thing that And I WANNA I WANNA scream. You scream when somebody does something. Too Much when they overuse a particular word, even all grammatical construction of sound of hesitation noise. As you mentioned just then, I can make you hate any word in the English language by over using it. You know tall really I can I really really. Really. Really an as soon as I do it more than four or five time just about to scream onto, and it's the same hesitation on these filler phrases as they called the these comment clauses as the grammarians called them like you know you see I. Mean Mind You. They say nothing, but on the other hand they have a very important role in conversation. Is They? Give you time to think if I? If you ask me, a hard question might say well, you know that gives me a moment to think of what I'm GONNA say next. Sometimes being called the oil that makes a conversation grove smoothly, if used judiciously, but if they not, if somebody over uses them of the worst examples of course of the politicians who you ask, a straight question of minister, and the minister says well you see I. Mean like you know an and of course you re not turn. It really gets your backup. But in everyday life, yeah, there are some people who, for whatever personality reason or because they. Haven't got anything to say or because they lack control the subject matter whatever it might be. They overuse a they rely on these FYLLAS, these hesitation noises, and so on, and the conversation becomes very awkward very difficult to continue. How do you solve that situation well, you have to do to analyze it a little bit. I'm one of the things that turns out is that? If the two people in the. Don't share the same background. Don't have the same access to the topic of the conversation. Then the person who hasn't is in a very difficult position. Indeed, that's crucial. That's one of the basic principles of conversation that we both bring something to the conversation, and if one person doesn't really have anything to say, then, of course, you're going to get the situation that you mentioned. I've always thought and you studied this A. You would know better, but I've always thought that there are a lot of people who use those and is and you knows. Kinda slow things down to to try to sound. Smarter or to explain things better. Academics I think do this sometimes where they throw in a lot of arms, and is and to to kind of sound more professorial, you know and I don't think that as a listener, people generally find it helpful, but that's why people do it. It's not just those phases either I've noticed this, too. As the so called academics stutter. Come across that. You asked me a question I go well I. I, think so. You get this kind of false stutter. You mentioned that that that was one of the basic principles of conversation. What are some of the others? Probably the most important is the phenomenon of simultaneous feedback. Now. This is not something that we rely strating in this podcast dialogue because it's not something on the whole, the people online do, but in face to face conversation. It's the all time. What do I mean by simultaneous feedback? I mean that while I'm talking. my listener is simultaneously feeding with all kinds of reactions to show how I'm doing the saying things like. Yeah Yeah. yeah hung no really. Yeah Yeah Yeah and so on. Now you have to have those. And there's an easy experiment that anybody can do to show. How important the? If you having a conversation with somebody and I suggest somebody you know well, not your boss or something like that. Then at a certain point in the conversation when you both speaking quite fluently, stop the feedback. Simply don't do it. Just shut up. Just stare at the floor. Just look at the person do nothing. The other person will not be able to continue the conversation. They will look at you and say he's sorry. David I. You're right, you're right. Hello. Have I, said something to offend. You are puzzled by the lack of simultaneous feedback. This is absolutely crucial critical to the success of a conversation, and that's why for those people who have spent a lot of time over the last few months in forums like zoom and the other strategies that you have to keep compensation going. They find it difficult. Every so many people have told me and I feel felt myself at the end of Zoom conversation whoever it might be with business associates, your friends family. You feel tired, you you. You feel a bit exhausted. Why because you're always on? You're always the attempting to get into rapport with people. Can't see and even if you can see them, there are too many people sometimes in the gallery view to me that you can make report with any of them. And then not giving you the feedback, because even if they were the lag between the time you speak in the time, they go hunt. Can Be enough to mean that it's just doesn't turn up at the appropriate time. And so all of this means that lack of simultaneous feedback results in compensation that is. Valuable, because it's keeping us in touch with people, but it nonetheless is artificial, and so to transfer that back to the face to face situation turns out to be one of the most critical factors in keeping a successful conversation going. While, I wonder if this becomes the new norm. If we're going to have to somehow adjust to that, because that may just be how group meetings get conducted if it does become a kind of new normal, but going to have to develop much more sophisticated strategies. To. Make sure that the conversation goes smoothly I. What do I mean by that? Well, for example, turn taking. Probably anybody who's been an zoom room has had this experience sitting sitting in front of your computer and on the the screen I'll say three or four people. You. Say something you ask a question well. Who's going to respond I? If they haven't UN muted if they haven't muted their microphones there all the Reggie to come in now, what's GonNa Happen? They're gonNA. Have People Speaking Cetane that happens, and then people don't quite know who to defer to. Or, are you going to develop a strategy like I'm going to raise my hand? And then it means I want to speak next or going to take my hat off or something like that. People have devised all kinds of ingenious ways of handling this, but at the moment, because we lack experience of how to do it it always a Beta artificial, and and a bit difficult, and I've lost track of the number of times compensations. I've been involved with the on on A. Pro System like zoom. Have simply broken down. Everybody suddenly stopped stalking and nobody quite knows whether it's their turn to speak next, and if they do then, how long should they wait and all of these difficulties? You know they all come in. It would seem that. Really. Every conversation has the potential. To take a wrong turn to turn into an argument or to to deteriorate in some way, if we're not careful and I know you. Have you talk about the strategies that we tend to use to keep a conversation pleasant to keep it going to keep it moving forward. Interestingly, these are all strategies that people. Have kind of mythical view about I'll give you two examples might. One is. Pretty, as a question, why do you laugh? And the answer is. People will say because you've said something funny. Well, no, that is not why we love in compensations. You might say something funny and get a laugh, but usually the laughter that turns up in the conversation is much more sympathetic. Laugh an empathic laugh I'm. Agreeing with you or something like that, and if you're trying to defuse potentially difficult situation, then wannabe things you can do is introduce kind of empathic, giggle or chuckle. Gesture vocal friendliness to to help the conversation. Get back on track. Another example is interruption. Interruptions get terribly bad press. You know you go online and type interruption in the style guide say never interrupted bad to interrupt well. That's the argument concept of interruption if I'm making a serious point to you and you interrupt me then I feel threatened then I feel. That I had the chance to say what I wanted to say. The and the interruption itself fuels the argument. But in everyday compensation of a kind of informal type. Interruptions there all the time and they're actually appreciated. Because the purpose of the interruption is to help the speaker move onto another point or to add something to the speak has just said in a friendly kind of way. The you interrupt and you say yes, because that's that's what so and so said as well, and the first speaker says yes. I hadn't thought about that Oh. Indeed he did so that kind of interruption is the norm in everyday compensation, and it's positing not a negative thing. And so I was GONNA. Ask you can I have a couple more because those are really good strategies that people probably do them anyway and don't necessarily realize what they're doing, but it's. It's interesting to shine a light on it like this, so if you have some others I'd love to hear him. Let me, give you an example of something from the beginning of a conversation and something at the end. How do you stop to compensation? One of the first things you have to agree? Greet each other. And so something that people don't usually realize what's the difference between the various kinds of greeting and various kinds of farewell. Take Good morning you say good morning, somebody morning, or whatever the phrases that you like to use most and at the end of the end of the day or or when you're leaving something, you might say good night night. Good night all goodbye. You might say hello and goodbye good morning and good night, but a lot of these peds strategies. What's the difference between them? Will the difference is this? That when you greeting somebody you express the greeting to an individual person just wants. If I see you in the morning, Mike? Can I make you for the first time I take morning you morning David. And we get on with our day five minutes later I go back into the room and you're still there now. I don't say morning Mike a second time. If I, did you look very oddly you'd think. Didn't you see me the first time what what's going on? Indeed if I realized that I I've said it a second time I might even apologize and my house. Sorry Mike. Say Good morning to you already haven't i. Now fast forward to the end of the day. I'm leaving your office I say. Can I might an off I go? Oh, forgotten my bag. I go back into the office. I picked up my bag. I see you again, say goodnight Mike. I say the second time, and that's fine. No problem. Indeed I can say as many times I like nine. Go and so and some people do that when they're leaving a friend, so the difference between good morning and good nights or hello and goodbye. Something that people don't really realize until it's pointed out to them, and their most just pointed out and say oh. Yeah, because I knew that. I think when you look at conversations. One of the sloppiest parts of of lots of conversations is the ending it. There's no often neat way to end it well. Yeah, good to see. Though. We noticed it online. If you're having a chat with somebody, how do you end the? More difficult than beginning the chat, isn't it? No, so you sitting in your dining room with? You and your partner and a couple of visitors have come to meet you and you've been. You've had dinner. You're there all evening and you've been chatting away. Todd partners. They visited say it's time to leave, so they say. Oh, we look watch or something and they say oh, really must be going. Time to go. They don't go. At the point. The then you then carry on a conversation for certain period of time, a few minutes may be a bit longer, and then they look waterguns Lo, look I really must go, and at that point, everybody is allowed to stand up and the person. The people leave the room with appropriate farewells, and so on and so forth. Don't teach how strange it would be. If the very first time somebody says looking at they watch I. Really Miss Go. The host says okay. Fine up the get, and you go out wouldn't happen or if it did, it would be a very strange situation indeed. So, we have these unconscious strategies about how to end in a polite comfortable sort of way. That's another example. There have been people in my life and I'm sure everyone or Yeah I'm sure everyone's had this experience where they're just certain people that you really like talking to because they make you feel smart and I've tried to sort of figure out what it is. They're doing to make me feel so smart and make me feel like I really contributed to the conversation and I guess it's many of the things that you've been talking about, but. I still think there's some. There's some kind of June Sekwa I haven't been able to figure it out that there are just some people. people have said that former President Clinton used to Ha- or has this ability that that they make you feel so special. And I don't know what it is, do you? Well. Personality aside. One absolutely cast iron strategy to develop that kind of feeling is. You talk about the person you're talking to not about yourself. I talk about you about you. Don't need a casual sort of how you kind of situation but you keep you keep asking about the other person about their interests about what it is, and occasionally of course referring back to yourself, Oh, to some other circumstance, but the more you ask about the other person. The more the other person feels that you're a really nice guy now if both people are doing this, then both people end up happy because I asked about you Mike about your background, and and everything and things like that. And you think oh hi. Everybody wants to talk about themselves. You See and so I'm giving you the chance to talk about yourself. And then you do the same to me and do we ask each other how things are going and how? How is the lockdown for you and things like that? And so long as each person is eliciting information about the other. Everything's going well. You become a bowl if you elicit information only about yourself. Well it is interesting to pause and take a look at conversation. 'cause it something all of us do all the time without really examining how it functions how it works and and how to make it better. David Crystal has been my guest. He's a writer editor lecturer and he has written or edited over a hundred books is latest. Book is called Let's Talk. How English Conversation Works and there is a link to that book in the show notes for this episode. Hey, thanks for being here, David. Well thanks Mike. That's been a really interesting. Chop thanks for your interest. When you go, get a physical at the doctor's office. He or she will take your blood pressure, but do they take it twice? According to British research, taking blood pressure measurements in both arms is critical because each arm usually has different measurements, and that difference can play a large role in your risk for cardiovascular problems. Those of us who have a significant difference of systolic pressure between the two arms are much more risk of stroke and heart disease. Recommendations to measure both arms actually do exist in blood pressure management guidelines, but it's estimated that fewer than fifty percent of doctors actually do it. Dr Christopher e Clark Lead Author of the study says don't be shy. You need to be proactive and ask your doctor to measure blood pressure in both arms, knowing your risk early and making necessary lifestyle changes could extend or even save your life, and that is something you should know at the end of many episodes I. Ask you to share this podcast with someone you know because well. That's how we grow our audience. And it helps us a lot, so please share this podcast with someone you know I'm Mike carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

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