Unmasking Obamagate (feat. Frank Figlizzui and Mimi Rocah)
Hey all this is Glenn Kirschner and you're listening to muller she wrote be clear. Mr Trump has no financial relationships with any Russian oligarchs shooting. That's that's obviously with our position is. I'm not aware all any of those activities are have been called a surrogate at a time and that campaign and I didn't have not have communications with the Russians on have to get involved with food if I have nothing to do with Putin I've never spoken to him. I don't know anything about a mother than he will. Respect me Russia. If you're listening I hope you're able to find thirty thousand emails. That are missing. Sow It is political. Your Communist know Mr Green. Communism is just a red herring like all members of the oldest profession. I'm a capitalist. Hello and welcome to muller she wrote I'm your host AG and today we're GONNA play for you. Some incredible interviews. We had this past week for our sister. Show the daily beans. That's worth listen. Really really incredible interview so For the Muller Memos this week that came out for the Flynn News. Check out Monday may daily beans. We're GONNA cover it all there so I can bring you these two interviews so today we're bringing you these two interviews one with former assistant director of the FBI for Counterintelligence Frank Caluzzi and the other with former federal prosecutor currently running for District Attorney in Westchester County. New York Mimi Roca so first up is Frankford Caluzzi. So let's have a listen all right everybody. Welcome back Joining me today to discuss the potentially dangerous next steps for the Department of Justice is former assistant director of the FBI for Counter Intelligence and MSNBC analyst. Frank Caluzzi Thank you for speaking with me today. Thank say Gee yesterday. U. Penn to piece for NBC about trump's Obama Gate comments. He just tweeted out. Obama GATE IN ALL CAPS. And you talked about a troubling new pivot at the Department of Justice. In you know we've recently seen unprecedented meddling by bill bar to go easy on trump's friends but where do you think this is leading next so I wanna just share with you a little background on this? Nbc think piece. I did because when I started writing it. I was into what you'll see in the first paragraph. Which is the concept of predictive analysis? Studying someone's behavior in the Intel. You have to predict where their conduct beheaded and I submitted the piece to a number of major platforms and publications all of which came back to me and said Frank. This is a great piece. But it's it's out there. I mean you're you're actually trying to say that the president the president of the United States is going to accuse the former president and vice president of conspiracy. Frank do you remember when we were out there for thinking that Russia was meddling in the election? And then so okay. Look I'm I have a contract with NBC television. I'll submit this to them and have them tell me on crazy. Well in in the course of the twenty four to forty eight hours that transpired while I was getting rejection complex. Of course Lo lo and behold the president of the United States started tweeting and re tweeting the very conspiracy theory. I'm talking about including re tweeting an article from the federalist that claims that Obama and Biden. And you name it. Colmey Brennan Rice. Whoever sent all sit in a room clapper all set in a room? I'm trying to gin up the Russia case For the express purpose of taken trump out. And then he starts tweeting Fox News hosts who are seeing the exact same thing and then we see you know. Dna acting deny Richard Grenell show up with great fanfare with a Satchel in his hand at the front door of the Department of Justice. Because you know. He's going to unmask the terrible people who found. Flynn was the guy on the wiretap talking to Kislyak and then we have a Rose Garden press conference where Phil Rooker Asks Trump. The question what. What kind of crime are you? Are you accusing former president Obama of and trump responds Obama Gate crime? So then we then we then he tells reporters I had call with Putin. This is by the way on the very same day that that DOJ filed the motion to dismiss the Flynn charges. I had a call with Putin. We talked about this. We talked about the Russia hoax and quote a lot of things might happen unquote next few weeks. So my my my point is not just that I'm recovering from my rejection complex. But rather that. What seemed unbelievable. Two or three days ago has actually come to pass bar hinted at that earlier didn't he? I mean when he went on I can't remember it was Fox or ABC and made the comments. You know. Well we're looking into it and if there's crimes you know we're going to hold people accountable. I mean he sort of We call it looming the truth here on this show where you sort of like smoke out. What do they call it? Smoking the jury or something where you know you. You drop what you're about to do so when it hits. It doesn't hit US hard. But he he was. He was sort of laying the groundwork for for this even before trump went on his crazy one hundred and twenty-five tweet every seven minutes mother's Day come the thing so trump has an accomplice in this and that happens to be the Attorney General United States. Who's riding shotgun on this? This travesty train ride that that we're on. And he's the Attorney General. In many ways over the past couple years signalled his willingness to and complicity to help trump out of this mess and two more importantly twist the truth. So and we're talking about everything from that four page summary of the the Muller inquiry in calling a press conference to shape the public perception of it and now appointing John Durham the US Attorney Connecticut to get to the bottom of the vast Russia conspiracy. And and so we're we're going to see and then of course we fast forward to the Flynn filing. And so we're going to see over the next few weeks and months and very conveniently right up to the election this this kind of sort of Damocles hanging over the head of anyone including former President Obama who touched the Russia case and the right wing is eating it up hook line and sinker. Fox News is every night is hitting this hard and I think it's important to the facts on this. I don't WanNa be that guy that that does podcasts and TV appearances and just says Oh this is all bunch I want it. Dig Deeply into the facts of this. What we know. And more importantly what we don't know right because that's how we combat it is to discuss the facts and the details and you know and you're just bringing up all this other stuff with Durham and appointing. Us Attorneys to look into Flynn and look into stone 'cause you say trump is still very sensitive about twenty sixteen. We know from Bob Woodward's book that he kept an electoral map. Maybe still he does on display outside of the Oval Office. So he's still very very you know about trying to unwind this entire Russia investigation. He's been doing it his entire presidency. It goes directly to the heart of how he sees the validity of his own election. So it's much like a baseball season when there's been a strike rate in the record books. There's an asterisk next to that entire season and in parentheses it says you know strike occurred during the season so basically don't pay attention to the stats to him. Not only it's a double whammy. Not only did he not win the popular vote. But now there's this perception that since it's been proven that Russia interfered in the election. Then quote that then Comma. They must have actually got him the win. The reality is a G. There's never been proof that Russia got him the win that that's hard to quantify and qualify. There's been proven evidence including confirmed by the Senate Intelligence Committee controlled by Republicans. That indeed they went all out to do this. And we indicted twenty six Russians for doing it so he in his mind the way you become more valid in terms of the presidency. Is You get rid of this taint. How do you get rid of the tent? You have to get rid of those indictments or at least at least cause a perception that those indictments were tainted and part of a vast conspiracy bar has signed up for that cost. And we're going to see some people absolutely ruined and destroyed in the process. I would not be surprised if you see the attorney. General United States take whatever John comes up with twisted contorted and and issue statements that make people think Yup Obama and more importantly Biden. Who's opposing the President They came up with all of this. And so if you dig deeply into this. Here's the condensed version. What we know so far. Is that the intelligence community came to President Obama during the transition period when when trump had had one and here comes the transition team. The transition team is about to receive very sensitive briefings right. It's that it's crucial time between November and January when you start really informing the incoming team of the world picture and sensitive intelligence and so they come to the White House and they go. Hey serious problems with Flynn. We got him on tape. We we we we we. He's he's he's been paid by Russia for speaking engagements. He's an unregistered foreign agent of Turkey. We've got photos of him and Putin in Russia and by the way you know we've got these greater concerns about Russia now proven Russian assistance to the campaign. What what say you? President Obama and what appears to have happened is by all accounts Obama said Hey I got to know what we can brief brief to the transition team and particularly an incoming national security adviser like flint. Let's get to the bottom of it so that's being turned into this. Smoking gone bombshell proof that Somehow Obama fabricated the Russia evidence. Yeah an unraveling. The Russia investigation has the added benefit of giving a pretext for trump to lift sanctions. The you know the Obama Sanctions for metal for attacking us in the two thousand sixteen election. And I appreciate your Major League Baseball analogy because I am a Cleveland Indians. Fan and the strike in one thousand nine hundred five. We would have won the series. I know but I don't believe have you been. Have you been to the new field at progressive field? I have it's beautiful it's gorgeous. I don't have their season stance standings hanging on my desk outside of my office. You know. That's the point. I'm not that hurt by it. My greatest concern as you just mentioned since I come from the counterintelligence world and see everything through a national security lens is that those twenty-six indictments are Russians. I mean bad ass rushes. Twelve of them are GRU intelligence officers. Yeah if we make people think that those indictments are invalid or that. Nah that never happened. Or even trump just pretends like hey see. The whole thing's tainted fruit of the poisonous tree. Therefore I'm going to. I'm going to overturn the sanctions against Russia for Messing with our democracy that empowers the Russia and Putin and all bets are off in terms of what adversaries will feel like they can do to us. Yeah that's the scary part and I want to ask you about playing the this kind of thing out to its logical conclusion. Let's say we do end up seeing charges against clapper against Brennan Komi etc. The likely won't make it past the first round of the court particularly in the DC circuit. I mean I I imagine that the awesome lawyers that these folks would hire would file motions to dismiss it would likely these cases would be dismissed. So what's the endgame here? Is he just pushing it out to get the charges and then have the election and then they go away like what's the goal? Yeah you don't even need to actually get a grand jury to indict you. Theoretically don't even need to get to the grand jury. What I think is going to happen. Ag is we're going to see some attempts at criminal charges probably at a very low level. The easy one and by the way I can get into this. It's not that easy but the most logical candidate a low level would be the FBI attorney who allegedly fabricated. And I'll get into this in the second allegedly fabricated a an e. Mail in support of the FEIS affidavit against Carter page. That's that's that's the first one you're going to see. That's what I thought too because I mean you know. They say that He was they were trying to determine whether Carter page was an asset to the CIA and it was classified. He was misnamed. It was a misnomer and they've added something to an email. After the fact allegedly we may have even had this discussion before a G I. I've talked about the so much I can't remember who with but look at in the course of my career I can't tell you how many times I've had go around with the CIA properly characterized one of their sources is operatives. Informants context associates Unpaid on contacted and they'll go in circles and look that's the world they live in and you can get three different answers from three different people on three different days about how to characterize someone that they're talking to and so it's what. I'm hearing an by the way I can. I'll stand corrected on this it. This was an outright fabrication. By if I attorney right but my what I'm hearing is that he was trying to get this right. As to how the agency was characterizing Carter page and make it explainable easily to the Pfizer court. And so on. The language was being played with and manipulated to try and figure out what the agency was saying on any given day and portray it correctly. I if that's what happened here. Then there's no way a grand juries going to indict and by the way it's going to see that would require the CIA to come forward and release classified information to a grand jury about what they were doing with with Carter page so even that might not happen but to answer the question of where this is going. You don't have to get to criminality right. I mean even even trump said when asked what the crime was Obama well there's nothing entitled Eighteen. Us Code called Obama Gate so what you have is Bar Through the next six months start to attack folks start to lay seeds of things and then you hear him watch carefully. Listen carefully when reporters asked bar is they're going to be a report from Durham. You get. I don't know maybe we'll see so so wait a minute. Oh you know you know. We'll see yeah so you got a US attorney and an entire team. Tearing apart a case against A campaign president and you might not issue report. Why might you not well because this allows me to spin and insinuate and destroy people so you know just plant the seed? People's mind we're headed to a grand jury. We're thinking about it. We're fixing to get ready or we present it you know. It's like the question. When did you stop beating your wife? What's what's those words are out of somebody's mouth? There's nothing you can do to to deny or dissuade them so once he says grand jury. We're GONNA try. We're GONNA go. We we went and they said No. That's all that matters in certain people's months that he and you're talking about counterintelligence previous patterns behaviors that's what he did with Ukraine just the mere announcement of an investigation without even having to do one Would have an impact so I need to squeeze in a quick break but I do have another question for you. You stick around. Sure okay. Great we'll be right back We are talking to former assistant director of the FBI for Counterintelligence Frank Figliuzzi stick with us. Hey everybody it's ag from the daily beans due to the global pandemic of Kobe. Nineteen the job market has been uncertain for the past couple months. And we don't really know what the future will hold. None of us can predict it. We're all uncharted waters. And as a small business ourselves we understand what employees and employers are going through right now. Employees are worried about their jobs. Still being there when this is over or having to find a new one while employers are concerned about their business surviving and hoping that both customers and employees can come back in the effort to dissuade fears and provide some assistance and comfort in these times. We'd like to relate the following message from our sponsors ziprecruiter. They say can not be overwhelmed. We have to work to keep our loved one safe and protect our communities. We have to work to stay strong to stay connected to stay focused. We have to work to inspire to innovate to build new solutions. But for all this to work we have to work. Together that's Ziprecruiter. We connect employers and people every day but today is different. We're partnering with First Responders Government officials and the medical community the innovators and manufacturing transportation and food distribution industries to make sure we're finding the right people for the jobs right now so let's work together. Ziprecruiter DOT com slash work together. All right everybody. Welcome back. Frank thanks for sticking with me here. I just had a couple more questions for you. What do you think of the notion that by well first of all? Tell me explain to me what this whole thing is with Rick. Grenell and the unmasking Fox News. I believe. Just put out a report that Biden Komi and the Intel chiefs were among those who wanted to unmask. Flynn what does that mean unmask? Flynn Yup. This is really important because again. We're going to get a steady drumbeat of this on Fox News every night. Okay so we saw Grenell with great fanfare. Walking into with a Satchel to Department of Justice Headquarters that was all staged and it was like the Nunez running at midnight or the or the parchment envelope with calligraphy sent to By by Guiliani. They're just so funny with their really lame like staging shows you got you. GotTa give them credit. So here's here's here's some important background on what unmasking means when a certain three letter agency that we shall not mention Intercepts conversations. Let's say you know. And these are by the way all court authorized intercepts almost always a foreign national targets occasionally more than occasionally. Marican citizen will be intercepted and captured. Speaking to. This person could be that this target is ordering pizza from Domino's and the pizza delivery guys saying hey. I'm outside your door that gets intercepted as part of the wiretap on the foreign person right. Well that happened with Mr Michael Flynn who was talking with Russian Ambassador to the United States Kislyak so the way that report shows up on your desk and many of them showed up on my desk when I was a d. A counterintelligence is unnamed. Us person or unnamed US per or unknown person. You then have to go back to that agency with three letters and say I have a valid. I have a valid reason for knowing who that was right and if it's a pizza order you don't have a valid reason for knowing and that agency believe me will tell you take a hike. That's a pizza order but instead what they'll usually come back is they'll currier to you because it's top secret Literally a human will hand you the unmasked name. And because you it's determined you have an intelligence reason and of course if you are. Oh say a president or vice president trying to figure out if you can trust and income transition or who. The hell is undermining my policy by talking to sanctions with the Russian ambassador. Because that's I I need that missing name. Who the hell is doing this to me? And if you're the FBI or CIA or Susan Rice at National Security Advisor or the UN ambassador Susan power to the United Nate tonight American United Nations and someone's talking about undermining sanctions and telling the the ambassador to Russia. Don't don't pay attention to these sanctions. We'll take care of it. You want to know that name so you ask for it to be unmasked. So you're going to see people all the Obama Administration who are saying. I had a valid reason to know and that three letter agency said Yeah. I think you do because they're messing with you and here comes the name. Yeah I mean there's a whole lot about that it's called the Logan Act. I know he never charge anybody with it. But you're not you're not supposed to act as an agent of the federal government. If you're not one by the way I get Logan Act is a crime. That's almost never charged. I get that but I'm saying understand the bigger picture. It's an intelligence counter intelligence threat picture. Of course. Of course I don't think I don't think Susan Powers Susan. Rice is sitting there going I want to charge the Logan Act. Going who the hell is telling the Russian ambassador not to pay attention to our sanctions and the President Obama likely saying I need to figure out if I can trust to brief at the tes level to the incoming trump team. Who is doing this? And that's a valid purpose. Now what do you think of the notion that by investigating and possibly trying to charge folks but even just investigating folks like Brennan Biden? Maybe even Obama that Trump could knowingly or inadvertently bad taste for going after a preceding administration as he faces losing the election in November. I thought about Somebody mentioned that on twitter like I don't know that's probably just a a benefit aside benefit a be careful what you ask for. You might get it so you want you. WanNa previous administration investigated for for for little or nothing. Then you better be prepared that it's going to happen to you There's there's a lot of iron here. Don't forget we have a president and his lawyers as recently as this week in Supreme Court claiming that the president has vast powers to do whatever the hell he wants. Yeah now what's the president saying? Obama should not have had had briefings from the intelligence community on on the Russia case which which is. Think a lot like me. My very next question was given the arguments that Scotus yesterday. How does this square? With trump? In the Department of Justice arguing the presidents are immune from investigation and prosecution down down his up. This isn't the only dissonance by the administration. They fight for pre existing conditions while litigating against obamacare. They say they're trying to save social security while cutting it in their budget. That's why you know I I believe Matto always says you know. Watch what they do. Not what they say but yeah. I really appreciate you explaining that to us because I know you're counterintelligence expert and I just wasn't sure what the unmasking thing meant so now it's clear It's much more clear to me that There were senior officials within the Obama Administration. Who wanted to know the name of the person talking to Kislyak in an intercepted Call from three letter agency talking about. Don't freak out over the sanctions. We'll take care of. It makes total sense because then we had you know what it Sally Yates Do. And what the two things. Obama warned the incoming President about Flynn and North Korea. Well you and that Flynn is compromisable. The moment the moment the White House came out and said Hey. Flynn never talked about sanctions with the Russians. The Russians own you now they own flint and that's what's Elliott's was trying to tell them. Hey wait a minute. We have when on tape saying this so they own him because they know he's lying to you and now you said it publicly. They can screw him over at any time and that's what she was trying to say. He poses a threat. And that's with those FBI agents. Were trying to get to the bottom of when they showed up at the White House to interview fling and just real quick before. I let you go explain what that would look like a compromised. Flynn Russians know. He lied. How could the Russians screw him? I don't I don't know if there is a lot like I feel like there's some people out there who don't quite understand how that makes someone compromised. Well if you so the bottom line is when someone if you're in a position of trust top secret clearance close to the president doesn't matter you could be anywhere in the intelligence community quite frankly And if the bad guys have something on you that you're keeping secret and keeping secret is defined by you. Lie to your boss about it and that boss embarrassingly has gone public with what you've told him which is a lie. They come back at you and go. Hey General Flynn You know we need you to side with us on this issue. We need you to convince the president of Xyz and you know what if you don't give us this piece of information this Position Paper this classified until We're GonNa tell folks that you did commit a violation of the Logan. Act THAT YOU DID. Tell us to stand down on anything regarding sanctions and oh by the way when you got paid thirty thousand dollars to show up at dinner in Russia and sit with Putin and you claim you don't know how that was paid and all of that will expose that to straight up blackmail. Why wouldn't a general a Patriot quote unquote? Just call it out. Just go public with being blackmailed by the Russians. Or or I mean I don't understand I is it just desire for power and money that over. Take somebody's duty. I don't know how you make it that far in that kind of position and and sell out the country which is what Sullivan was saying when he said in his courtroom December Eighteenth and twenty thousand eighteen when he was about to sentence him any talked. Flynn out of it. Saying you need to go forth and cooperate more because I hate your face right now and pointed the flag behind him. You and I've talked about this and said you've betrayed everything that stands for asked the prosecutors if they'd looked into treason that is sort of the crux. It isn't it. Yeah the the Behavioral Studies of folks. Who actually do these really stupid things Is Fascinating to me. But it requires you to understand the history of Flynn and where he's coming from. Let's not forget He was the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency. It's it sounds like a really cool position and it is. If you're one of the until nerds like me. I remember visiting the Pentagon walking past that their office and I was like ooh. It's a very important institution but in the in the scheme of things in the US military. It's not the cool kids department. It's not you're not. You're not leading battle. You're not in combat theater. And he even worse. He develops a reputation as a rogue cowboy that Causes Obama to feel. He's insubordinate answer recommend that he not get anywhere near an important position. Even Chris Christie was recommending against the hiring of General Flynn because of his cowboy reputation and the fact that people didn't like him or care for an Obama removed him from the dia position so he has a huge chip on his shoulder. His his career is essentially ended. He's not going to get where he wants to be and so in retirement. He's looking to get some posture and some cash. And where does that come from? Well I can give speeches for thirty thousand dollars a pop even if they're in Russia really bad judgment but I've seen it before well as a veteran it. I'm disgusted by it and you know I mean I. I was a support position In the military I was navy nuke under Clinton so it wasn't you know I wasn't one of the cool kids either but You know it's it's just and and then to take the position of being the Patriot is just it's disgusting. It's gas lighting and we'RE GONNA WE'RE GONNA see a lot of this just like you said in your piece we're going to see His base falling for these charges. If there are any or at least the attempt to make them fall for it hook line and sinker and they'll all come after US and gaslight for being part of the deep state. We are going to get worse where we're going to see. Flynn rolled out at campaign rallies. We're going to see Navy seal former navy SEAL CHIEF. Gallagher accused of war crimes but for Trump's meddling in that rolled out as campaign surrogates. And it's going to be disgusting. Well let's all prepare for it because it's going to happen and thank you very much for joining us today everybody former assistant director of the FBI FOR COUNTERINTELLIGENCE MSNBC analyst Frank Figliuzzi. Thank you again so much for speaking with me today. I appreciate it. Stay EDGY BY THIS IS AG. And you're listening to me. She wrote and now. Let's hear the interview with me. Rocca all right everybody. Welcome back Joining me today is former federal prosecutor from the Southern District of New York law professor. Msnbc legal analyst and candidate for District Attorney for Westchester County. New York Mimi Rocca Mimi. Thanks for speaking with me today. Thanks they did so good to be back with you. It's been a long time. We've we had a little bit of a i. Guess Hiatus doing all all this stuff that we're trying to accomplish right now but I'm really really glad to speak to you again and I'm glad to be here. There's certainly a lot to discuss right now on the legal front. Yes and I want to just give you a heads up. Our listeners are pretty. Well caught up on. What's going on with? Flynn all the way up to the minute. Order asking for amicus Curie But I wanted to speak with you today about first of all. Here's a brief time line with this order. So the Department of Justice we know filed a week sauce motion to dismiss the case against the case against Flynn and then may eleventh retired judge. John Gleeson I believe is a John penned an op Ed he pendant op. Ed in Washington Post saying evidentiary hearings. An amicus curiae were needed. In this case since neither side was opposing the motion to dismiss like it's now it's bar versus. Flynn and their friends. You know Eh But then Judge Sullivan issued a minute order asking for amicus briefs and then yesterday he issued an order that Judge Gleeson retired. Judge would be assisting the court Under amicus curiae. He's got you know things that he can information he can provide the court that the party's representatives aren't providing And he want. He's GonNa assist in weighing the motion for the depart from the Department of Justice. So first of all I put out a tweet there and you. You've had responded and that's why I wanted to talk to any. Have you ever seen anything like this? Have you ever seen anything like this? Yeah no and I I jumped right in there because to me the the answer seems so Kind of obvious but also important which is no. I can't I mean doesn't mean it's never ever happened but in in my experience sixteen years as federal prosecutor And a watcher you know for the past couple of years very closely you know I. It is unusual to see a judge in a criminal proceeding invite amicus briefs And even more unusual I think to sort of say That they're appointing one one person in particular to do that. But we've never seen anything like what has happened here with Bill Bar and the Department of Justice dismissing a perfectly legitimate and even important criminal prosecution after the person's plead guilty twice. Oh You know it is it is. The answer is haven't really seen anything like this but have never seen anything like this attorney general. I think what the judge is doing is recognizing that the interests of the Department of Justice as an independent institution with a political motivations is not being represented by bill bar. And and so you know you. You bring in People for you invite amicus briefs You you allow briefs when Friends of court when when all the interests are not being represented and and you know I I know that the Trumpian disagree with this but any objective observer bar over the past couple of years cannot say that he is representing the Interest Department of Justice he is representing the interests of Donald Trump And not what his job is supposed to be. And I think this is the first time. Missus someone empower mainly judge. Said you know what there's something I can do about that. Yeah and you know. I think you're exactly right. An unprecedented motion to dismiss calls for an unprecedented reaction right. And so in. And just I mean I guess I would say one other thing while I think what the judge is on here is highly unusual. It's there are similar Procedures in other cases that are now against so. It's not like he just made this up. I mean we have amicus briefs in as you know well and you know Supreme Court cases dealing with all sorts of issues. I mean it it it. It's not foreign to It's not unusual to have these kinds of briefs filed is somewhat unusual an individual criminal cases. But not but not where there are bigger legal principles at stake. Which I think is really what's going on here. This isn't just about Flynn anymore. It's about the principle of an independent department of Justice making lawless decisions. Yeah and the beauty of it is. We have seen like you said in the past few years we've seen the Department of Justice under bill bar weigh in with amicus briefs in Supreme Court cases on multiple occasions. And so it's not an argument. It's it's nothing that bill bar can stop and we'll get into that in a in a second but I wanted you to tell us who is judge. Gleeson because I feel like our listeners. Have a little bit of an indication. They know some of the cases. He's prosecuted some of the people he's brought down In his in or you know presided over. I shouldn't say brought down in his years as a judge. Who can you just who give us a picture of who he is so judge? Gleeson on was a federal judge for many years. I actually Clerked for him meaning. I was one of his law clerks back in one thousand nine hundred ninety seven right when I was fresh out of law school and he had been on the bench. I think for two years or so so it was a very young judge. He was a judge in Brooklyn. I'm United States Eastern District Court for the Eastern District of New York and he had been a federal prosecutor for many years before that in the Eastern District Us Attorney's office and You know did kind of cases federal prosecutors like like him like me you know do but his claim to fame. I think the thing that he's most well known for is that he successfully prosecuted John Gotti senior who was known as the top lawn. Because you so many times had been prosecuted and was not convicted but then a judge Gleeson Very well tried case Was able to successfully prosecute him and and that one man crime spree with the Gambino family And so He after that I think he was acting. Us Attorney for a little bit of time but then he was appointed I believe by President Clinton to be a federal judge. He was a pretty young for his You not to be appointed a federal judge and I will tell you though Both from my experience working with him for a year which means I was with him every single day. Every minute of the day in court outside of court eating lunch with him talking with him and he has remained a friend and a mentor onto the stay He is one of the most brilliant people not just lawyers but but also a brilliant lawyer that I know I mean truly has a brilliant mind. is Really not sort of a cookie cutter Person in other words I I. It's hard to fit him into one mold or another. So he was a prosecutor for many years I think him to the bench without experience but pretty quickly as a federal judge became very defense oriented and actually became very involved with The Criminal Defense Organizations Federal Defenders in particular and really kind of before criminal justice reform was a of popular thing or even a term that people you know talked about in the way that they do. Now he he was really at the forefront of that and and Really tried to Help reform sentencing federal sentencing guidelines. When she thought were too high he really was a judge who looked out for Sort of the the most vulnerable people in the criminal justice system and and tried to work on early reforms To you know thought our laws and sentences were were too harsh too high at the federal level amongst others. So he's kind of a a really independent thinker. He doesn't fit neatly and sort of one box or the other. I think he really knows the Department of Justice inside and out in news what it is supposed to be at its best But also knows the dangers of it and and overreach and how that can work in not been afraid to stand up to that even in the in the past as as A judge and now he's a practicing I would call on sort of a white collar criminal defense lawyer at a law firm in New York. He did step down from the brunch recently But he's he's a well-known voice in terms of You know speaking out for what. He believes When he was a judge he did several Political redistricting cases that that made a lot of headlines He's just a very kind of smart and independent banker. Who Does what I think he thinks is right. What whatever box it's into or doesn't fit into and so I think that's part of why he's the perfect choice for this. Yeah seems like his. Experience? advocating for the everyman Seems to be relevant in in his OP. Ed In glazes op ED. That came out before Sullivan asked him to join the case he was urging Sullivan. Seems to to you. Know think twice. About just dismissing this case and talked about having evidentiary hearings. Perhaps listening questioning calling into question you know bringing the guys from Covington burling which is Flynn's original lawyers reponsible bringing in former prosecutors. Who worked on the case? Who have since left like Kravis. I would assume So it was it ban. It was Kravis Van van bracket was. Yeah but who? But he still works for Department of Justice as far as I know van crack does So it I think and this is what I was personally hoping for. When when Flynn filed his motion to dismiss we were all sitting around me and Kirschner and we were sitting around saying. Gosh I hope he has evidentiary hearings. I hope he just doesn't dismiss this case and so now I think we're we're kind of see what where gleason stands what his background is in. I think we can sort of see where this is going. And it's is it fair to say that the Justice Department trump can't do anything about this? This isn't something they can ask for a stay for or oppose or Filo. I mean they can file a motion to disagree with it. Yeah and I think if I'm keeping up on this fast moving news. I think that he has. I think Flynn has filed something saying basically. You can't do this you can't you invite Amicus briefs in A criminal case You know that's that's not gonna go very far. Well no and it explains why Sullivan put in his minute order. I was like why is he putting k? Citing case law about amicus curiae in his minute order. Oh it's because he knows he say hey I have sole discretion Mo- foes and so come at me. It's not a free for all though quoting judger Jesse Jackson. I'm like what is he getting out. What does he getting at now? We Know Yeah. Yeah exactly no. He's he's I mean this John Jay. It's it's very smart and very independent himself and And which is not unusual. I mean most federal churches. A lot of them are and they don't like being told what they can and can't do. They have a lot of discussion for a reason and how to run their cases in their courtroom. And I think here You know I I don't I mean I know Fox News is going to be screaming about how the judge should be shouldn't do this but I don't know what basis they have to say that And if you look at the history of of federal judges having discretion in sentencing in motion practice I mean the dots their job And of course he shouldn't just rubber stamp us so halls Rod Rosenstein. Frankly I mean yes you can call from other people but you know rose I mean Rosenstein was the member of this administration that signed off on this prosecution. I know he wasn't there at the beginning but he absolutely approved it and he's completely I'm at now. You know as as they say that this was all a big political conspiracy by quote the Obama Administration. Yeah and it's going to be interesting too because by now normally we would've heard tweeting a biased Obama judge Blah Blah Blah. But here judge Sullivan was appointed by H. W and so yes. Yes exactly and so but I. I don't know that that necessarily has stopped trump from going after people before and calling them bias so I. I'm assuming that we're going to start getting some misinformation propaganda about gleason and Sullivan being biased judges and badges. I'm assuming we'll start seeing that sort of thing come to light. I'm surprised it hasn't already happened. We'll tell us before I let you go. Tell us a little bit about your campaign where people can find you where people can donate to you. I don't work for the government anymore so I don't have to go down the Hatch Act I can ask for donations for your campaign They give thanks for asking. Yeah so I'm running for Westchester District. Attorney. Westchester is right outside of New York City So you know Important and big District Attorney's office that has cases that can affect the you know even far beyond Westchester County And my campaign is going really. Well I'm running on a platform of Bringing ethics reform and integrity to. Da's office. Something that I think. Your listeners will appreciate wherever they are and Really the need for building institutions at the local level that are counterweights to what's going on in Washington to the trump administration and particularly when it comes to the Criminal Dotson system keeping the politics out of our justice system. That's something I'm really been talking about in. The people really respond to and also pursuing public corruption cases conviction integrity. Making sure that we are not prosecuting. The wrong people and that we are having Not having wrongful convictions and I have platforms about that about human trafficking. That's a big priority for me gun safety and all this people can find on my website. You know all of my issue papers. I'm kind of listed out. It's Mimi Rocca. Rotc eight H for a DA dot. Com You me Rocca four DOT COM and You know hopefully people can look it up and happy to have people help. Make a phone baking. Can you anywhere in the country and make donations and you got on our mailing list. We do weekly updates where I interview people On Zoom about important issues so Yeah that's that's pretty much a summary but I hope people check it out. Thank you thank you so much because these these are the steps. These are the crucial steps. That we're going to need to start taking to rebuild Integrity in in our institution equal justice under the law ethical guidelines. Giving some teeth to these things and in moving forward to to put back what? Trump is taken away in being able to trust our our legal system. So thank you so much for joining me today. You lose two of credits is too long but law professor. Msnbc legal analyst former prosecutor from Southern District of New York and candidate for Westchester Da. Thank you so much Mimi. I appreciate you coming on today. Thanks great to talk to. Y'All that's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you haven't already please. 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