#243: The Mind of Charlie Kaufman Pt. 2 I'm Thinking of Ending Things

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Hello next pitcher show listeners. Recently, we've told you about a couple of different PODCASTS and websites. You can try out to get some insight into the behind the scenes processes that go into making movies, television and other art. Here's a new recommendation for you slates podcast working, which asks creative people how they do their jobs. To Nana's hosts Ramana lomb Isaac Butler in June Thomas talked to Jordan peels composer on get out and us about what goes into composing music for terrifying moments or as they talked to American pickles costume designer about how she dressed two different. Both played by Seth Rogan. Learn how a writer outlines a novel how a museum curator chooses art how a publisher works to amplify black voices and how youtube creator learns to talk comfortably into the Camera Lens listened to working from slate every Sunday on apple podcasts, spotify or your podcast of choice. Do we. Keep the line between the past. Believes or someone passed. Enter take possession of living. We may be through with the past. Is Not through with us. Welcome back to the next pitcher show a movie of the week podcast devoted to a classic film and the way its shaped our thoughts on a recent release. I'm Tasha Robinson here again with Scott Tobias, and once again, we have a film spotting Svu and dissolve veteran and crush writer and editor. Matt Singer here with US substituting in for Absent Friends genevieve Kaczynski and Keith Phipps welcomed the Scorch Matt. Thanks for having me back. Guys away. Now I'm old me Oh now I'm young me which Myemma, I? Guy Too many me's and I can't tell which one is the one that we should be talking to are any of these US smarter about film than any of the rest of them. Let's hope. So otherwise we are in for a long conversation usually are in our last episode, we look back at Spike Jones being John Malkovich. The Surreal Nineteen, ninety, nine feature about love among famous actors and body fees is also the first produced screenplay from Charlie Kaufman at the time TV writer after being. John Malkovich became a modest hit Kaufman went on descript the Movies Eternal Sunshine of the spotless. Mind adaptation, but then he branched out into directing his own work with two thousand Schenectady, New York Twenty fifteen's anomalies, and now the new film I'm thinking of things starring Jessie Buckley as Lucia, a young painter who's contemplating breaking up with her solicitous boyfriend jake played by Jesse, plummets even she's headed out into deep farm country with him in a snowstorm to me his gawky awkward parents played by David vs Toni Collette except wait is any of that plot description actually true were given several different names for the Chia and several different job descriptions when she sits down to dinner with Jake's mom. And Dad, things keep changing her hair enclose subtle details like a bandage on his face and eventually much larger things. Jake's parents age and his relationship to them does the basement she's not allowed to enter. There's a dog never stopped shaking itself and she keeps pushing to leave the house. No one will acknowledge her everything keeps changing. What's going on Kaufman is adapting a fairly celebrated novel by in read and it's a book that plays into some coffins favourite preoccupations, surrealism questions about identity in the self desperately quiet men who largely live inside their on minds and the breakdown of order that. May explain some of the films, more literary pretensions like the scene where the Chia, or whatever. We're going to call her recites lengthy poem by FM HD and claims it as around but it doesn't fully explain the ending as the world opens up into a literal dance number and stage song for out we're going to have to talk through the movie. It's possible to Suss out what's going on and I'm thinking of anything's, but it helps to know the book's plot and it helps to look to that title for clues like so much of this movie, it's more than one thing at once. Support for this podcast come from CDW and Dell. Technologies. At cdw Gee we get the migrating your agency to a hyper converged infrastructure is challenging. DECAF got gotta do it to want to do it but got to do it. Slowdown friend CDW JEEZ experts can help simplify your transition from legacy to hyper converged infrastructure with Dell technology solutions that offer speed and agility. Have you done it is it done yet? Why isn't it done yet rt orchestration by cdw. People who get it find out more at cdw, dot com slash del Tech. In yearly. Much about you. told me so much about both of you to and game. Tells me you're studying quantum psychics Physics. There's something. Profoundly wrong. Yeah. I came endings him. Off. No it was me I tell you I was play my own head. If it wasn't screwed onto my head, I feel like. Seeing. Seeing them after their. Thank you stay here. Excuse me. You don't have to go. To go where forward Our guys. How did you take I'm thinking of endings well, I think, I, know for a fact that there's GonNa be a little bit of contrast on this podcast because I quite liked it at home hatfields I actually do. But I like you quite a bit. I've seen it probably like two and a half times now. The half time. Just trying to be trying to sort it out it is it is least accessible film I think by a pretty significant margin, which is really saying something just saying council meeting. People talk about it. I. Think someone had mentioned how it's like, what if the whole movie where like the last third of? New York which is true in. So you know you Kinda have to adjust yourself to what it's doing. I mean another comparison I heard made to it was like it's it's like an Alan Rene film it's like a the L.. E.. Last year Marian bad type of experience, which is also pretty true. It's just fascinating compelling to me and I felt like I wanted to kind of keep going back. To figure it out and to kind of get into the mood of the thing, which is really what it's all about here because this is so much about trying to find a way to express interior life and exterior fashion, which is so much of what coffin does anyway and very much what he does here and I was grateful for it's a more dour film than he's that he tends to even by his standards but also was grateful for little moments of humor and absurdity that he packed in there is well in surprise and transcendence. So I I found it a very rich text have very difficult film but a film that I. Found rewarding so matt. Scott says that you have to adapt yourself to this film. Do you want to adapt yourself to this film? When let's put it this way when he said he'd seen it two and a half times already I started to sweat profusely. Of subjecting myself to this movie, which you know everything that's got says about it is true in the comparisons he makes our I think very fair and apt, and it's a very skillfully made movie and well put together and I was miserable watching a lot of it and The. Thought of a subjecting myself to it again is. Since chills up and down my spine I. I think in the first episode someone used the phrase quarantine moment and I don't know if I've seen a worse piece of quarantine meant than this in terms of not in terms of it being bad. But in terms of being ill suited to my mood and what I want right now and also the venue I having a hard time sort of like breaking this movie apart from its Netflix's meanness and the fact that you know if I had gotten to see this movie in a movie theater I, think the odds are are pretty good. I would I don't know if enjoy is the right word but I think I would have gotten more. And I think I would have been happier wrestling with it seeing it at home i. just I don't know it was not the best place for me to watch it feeling like we talked to in the previous episode about how claustrophobic movies that I liked Charlie Kaufman's can make me and this one when I'm already feeling kind of trapped and Claustrophobic it's almost overwhelming and I'm not by nature claustrophobic person that's not really a that I generally experience but I did. This movie. I don't know I envision, and this isn't necessarily a Christmas my. Just envision a lot of people turning this movie on on Net flicks after eighteen minutes being like I am GonNa Watch anything else I'm going to do anything else with my time and I kind of empathize with them because if this if I wasn't doing this for my job for this and I might turned it off to. And by the end of it I, I feel like I got more out of it but. I. Feel like calling it. A difficult film is almost an understatement is just confounding and challenging and it just doesn't give a lot back. You have to really work for you have to adapt I guess as Scott said you really you have to really adapt for this movie. So I guess my question there would be I mean there is a literal Claustrophobia to it in that a significant chunk of this movie takes place a small car in a snowstorm and the character the Lucia or Lucy various other names character is literally trapped she's not driving she doesn't WanNa be going where. She's going she gets later in the film driven somewhere. She doesn't WanNa go by someone who won't listen to her. So like all of that and the house stuff where she's ready to leave and she keeps saying, let's go. Let's go and no one will listen to. Her is very like literally narrative claustrophobic. I'm curious if you felt that same feeling of oppression and Claustrophobia when the physical spaces open up, but you're still kind of dealing with the mental implications of being stuck inside a certain person's body and perspective I mean, I. Don't think you really ever offered a whole lot of relief. It is tense I mean I it's a wonder. It's kind of a thing. I feel like with Netflix's almost these like levels in which they make these movies I mean because there's so much that they put on that service that. So kind of disposable and they look look the same but then there's just a craving on the company's part to. Have Tours on board the tourist responses like I am going to take that ball and I'm going to run with it and produced by most impenetrable work yet it's like. So in that sense, you know Kaufman takes advantage in makes the kind of movie that maybe he couldn't have made anywhere else which is relieving and it is it is really resistant to home viewing and I think matters absolutely right about that. It is not sort of like I'm casually flipping around Netflix's and I'm clicking on. This thing and I'm actually going to pay attention for two hours ten minutes every minute of what you feel quite intensely. But I think again, if you make the adjustment to it, the atmosphere of it is so tactile in new. I mean that Claustrophobia is there and you know just the snow globe there's sort of this oppressive sort of snow globe that the driving through is a really vivid the house where she meets Jake's parents and they're in the they're so strange and funny and tragic. Of those are so in the high school because really just foresee there's really for long stretches. There's driving there. There's the house there's driving away from the house and there's a high school and that's the movie But I think I think those spaces are all rendered with tremendous patients obviously in require a lot of patients but they're vivid I. Think. We have not even heard your opinion what do you think of it? Well, I'm not going to get to that just yet that question was intended for marijuana here Matt to answer to it since he's the one. Stuck within this movie and now stuck within this room with US asking questions I mean it's this is one of those interesting films and it is an interesting film even if I didn't really like it where I'm listening to Scott, describe it and it everything he says is true and you can see and feel the amount of care that's been put into this movie and like when I say I've felt claustrophobic and I, you know like I understand why anyone would want to. Turn off the movie especially at home I mean it's it's almost like the movie is daring you to turn it off. It is pushing prodding you all along where you are trapped in this car with these people who don't seem to like each other very much and making just the most kind of all rambling strange conversations that take these bizarre detours. But again, like that is the conceit that is designed to me I, guess where I struggled was it was like I don't mind. A movie. That's GonNa make me feel claustrophobic that wants me to feel anxiety that wants me feel discomfort to to feel the isolation in these characters and their scenario and I don't I don't mind working for it or adapting or whatever you WANNA call it. But I I guess I want something back and I I think that's maybe where the movie kind of fell short for me. It's like I wanNA care about the characters and I really never did at a certain point the characters you know the characters like we already said they. Have all these different names they mutate before our eyes they get older and younger in vanish and reappear, and they change forms they the further away got from any sort of like decks ical reality any sort of thing that I could kind of cling to it to me it just became kind of exercise and it was an exercise that I could sort of admire the craft of and appreciate what was going on. But at the end of it, I just didn't feel like I got much more out of it than that and it was. Kind of hate to harp on the netflixing. Thing too much. But you know the other thing it kind of reminded me of in some ways was like the way people describe like Netflix TV shows where it's like well, if you sit through the first six and a half hours. Right, around the midpoint of episode seven, it gets really good and that's you know that was almost how I would I could imagine someone describing this movie where it's like. Well, the first part is really long and not much happens, but then they get to the house. That part is really long and not a whole lot happens that when they get back in the car and you really begin to see the whole arc of this thing. Will that part is really slow to but then at the end in the in the high school, you'll really begin to understand how it all fits together and you do, and there are some lovely little notes at the end but it didn't feel like an awful lot of of a journey to a discovery that I didn't feel entirely worth it to me. See I think I think you would have been the journey for you? I would have thought was to get to that forget Paris joke I thought that was like that's that's the payoff that drop in that set it I absolutely like burst out loud. What I got to that part of the movie because they'd been so dry and absurdist before then suddenly. Forget Paris comes off up and David. Villa's calls billy crystal a Nancy. Just like this is absolutely brilliant. Tasha. Are you ready to tell us what you thought of this film I mean I think ultimately if if it's a flat scale, I'm probably somewhere between the two of you. Ultimately, my feeling was I thought it was a visually beautiful movie I was engaged with the conversations even as I wasn't terribly engaged with the characters. I. Mean I think Matt is absolutely right in saying that their functions rather than characters you know their interactions past a. Certain point are representative of ideas but not really representative of people anymore, and that's in keeping with Kaufman's questions about identity and his interest in the life of the mind and his big symbolism in his Meta story design. But on some level, you know Ebert, said that movies are machines for generating empathy and this is expressly a movie for generating no empathy. It's expressed the a movie for expressing a complicated and fairly abstract idea and want I like. And abstract ideas they don't feel emotionally satisfying they don't feel emotionally gripping so that last act at the school where everything breaks down into an extended Oklahoma ONA's with a fantasy ballet expressing characters like inner longing and desire, and it's snowing inside the high school, and then eventually it gives way to a literal performance of a song from Oklahoma. I thought of that was beautifully shot but just not very engaging on an actual character level. At that point, we've kind of a second, the physical or emotional existence of the character that the movies spent the most time working on and establishing. The tension that we've set up is she's in a place she's in a relationship. She doesn't think she wants to be in she doesn't see a future for it, but she's putting herself through all of these things for it, and then the movie just sort of let that go there is a huge interesting irony I think in the idea that the story is as I understand it and particularly from reading descriptions of the book that we can talk about this is a huge spoiler I guess. But the fundamental action of the film is that she doesn't exist jake doesn't exist. They're all their characters, imaginary characters in the mind of this aged and very janitor who is dying and experiences this sort of like psychotic breakdown in a way before he dies. And the idea of these characters not being characters means they're not people, and at that point, it becomes hard to relate to them and one wonders why we've spent so much time with them. I had a little bit of the same problem with anomaly. Saga. In that, you spent so much time on this specific humanity of these characters but they're really just kind of representative on idea and in the end, the movie does come back to Lisa but before that it kind. Of abandons both of their humanity and your left in this symbolic space that just isn't really about people anymore. But I feel like the performances give you that though especially Jessie Buckley, it's interesting. That is a composite of so many different things and everything that she is is borrowed from other. You know she has a palm that's not hers in paintings aren't hers and you know she's quoting at length from a Pauline Kale review of a woman under the influence it's not hers. It's so yeah. So the character is not real or is this composite of other things and yet? Jessie Buckley the actresses so powerful in the role, she's the one who kind of takes the reins here and kind of grounds, the movie and some recognizable emotion. I mean I it sort of plays with those ideas of artifice and construction, and then realness they I mean there's some real emotion in this movie, there is real emotion, but ultimately, it's the real emotion of a character that you barely get to now and I think. There's something very clever and very smart and very ambitious in building this story. Basically, you never get to know the janitor, but you know him through the figments in his mind you know you know he's insecure because Jake is perpetually trying to impress the Lucia character. He's perpetually trying to offer her things and comfort her and like even in his own fantasy of himself, even his own fantasy relationship even with this woman that he's invented that he keeps kind of losing the details honor changing the details on he still can't. Quite. A woman that's attracted to what he has to offer attracted to his intellect attracted to his obsessions I. think There's a realism to that. That's tremendously sad and I think it's very interesting to kind of puzzle pieces of the movie to see what we can assemble about the real character in the story from all of these artificial things but at the same time. I like a puzzle can only get me so far in art and emotion, and I'm seeing a lot of the a lot of people saying the same things about ten at right now it's like if a movie is exciting and ambitious and visually engaging, but you don't care about the characters at all or you can't engage with the characters because they don't fundamentally matter if the entirety of the focus of the movie is on. Can you piece these pieces together? Can you read the filmmakers? mind is a satisfying experience, and in this case I enjoyed the experience of it. I can't see myself returning to this movie. I can't see myself volunteering to watch it again the way I would watch being John Malkovich, eternal sunshine, or is Schenectady New York yes. I guess that's the difference I've seen two and a half times and and it just because it's just A puzzle I do feel compelled to try to figure out and it is well realized world that I don't mind spending time in is as oppressive and difficult as can be I like being in the car with those two those two crazy kids talking about cavities in. In poetry see I didn't see it as a puzzle. Could tease out a solution and I think Tasha had some interesting things to say about that in terms of like. Piecing together, the person who's theoretically imagining all of these things I guess the sort of the solution or the answer that you could be finding here. But when I was watching it, it felt to me more like someone had given me a piece of furniture to assemble from. Ikea. Without giving any instructions and I was sitting there going Oh this is a lovely part but I don't see how it fits to this piece over here and I don't know how I'm going to connect it to this one over here, and even while I was admiring the craftsmanship pieces I wasn't really seeing how they fit together and I was more than anything. I was just kind of frustrated that I was the one. Having to put it all. I was having to do so much work and I guess, I don't I'm not saying that I need a movie with an instruction manual necessarily but I think Tasha and I are actually closer on the movie that maybe I'm maybe I'm sounding too negative. But like every a lot of finding myself agreeing with a lot of what she was saying right down to the fact that you know even as you were saying, Scott like the Jessie Buckley performance here is is lovely at. And very true. It's like following her in the beginning of this movie, and then by the end of the movie, the quote unquote revelations or the moments of insight or whatever they might be in that high school you know that her character is the one that is the one that seems to most kind of vanish and it's like if we have invested anything in her. You know she's barely onscreen. She's sitting in the audience as Jesse. Plemmons is performing his big number on the stage and you know it's like if she is giving the most interesting performance, that's the one that's the least involved in that ending in some ways and so to me that was another kind of. Frustration or disappointment, and so yeah again would I see myself getting more out of it if I went back and watched it again and wasn't so focused on the mystery or the plot or trying to. Understand what was happening I'm probably I would do I find myself wanting to go back and experience it. not, especially, no silly here's a thing as I was watching the sequences in the house I kept coming back to David Lynch's eraserhead the whole interaction with the parents and the way everything keeps shifting the dreamlike logic of it. All just reminded me a lot of kind of the nightmare visions of David Lynch and those. Just. Really oppressive stories that he tells where nothing seems fixed in place and everything does seem like a dream but as the film went on particularly at the high school, I started to think about Darren Aronovski mother and that movie was so polarizing and I feel like this movie lives in the exact same place where you can be impressed with the performances you can be impressed with the the puzzle aspect of all you can be impressed with teasing out the meaning but. Because there is no center, there is no kind of fixed point in space for the characters you have to not be there for the characters in the story you have to be there for the larger puzzle and I think some people are going to be in some people aren't just as they weren't with mother it's a clear F cinema score. Lack of a theatrical release as it not a particular lovable film and film they'll a lot of people are gonNA latch onto that aren't really self selected Charlie Kaufman, enjoy irs but you know good you know sometimes movies are made for those made for different types of people. But I, I do like the David Lynch comparison I mean I think and I think there's a kind of this Americana aspect to it to that was also. It's something that Lynch's attracted to that some of that the iconography of being on a farm and with all of that entails something that we might see a Lynch Lynch movie to mother was definitely on my mind watching it to the Serbs divisiveness the. Trapped in this farmhouse with these eccentric people, you can't leave. I think the reason that I enjoyed mother a little bit more than this movie is just because I don't know that movie got so wild and frenetic and crazed, and it was at least kind of if people don't change the channel or turn off their netflix's watching it at home, it's the kind of movie that could easily low you to sleep with those long. Car Rides through the snow. It's dark Movie that I could imagine loved ones of mine. I'm saying this is why a lot of love and respect my heart like this is a movie that would put them to sleep. You know parents I know and relatives of mine they would just say Oh yeah. We can watch that and then you'd look over like forty minutes in and they would just be. Doing the doing the dip in. For sure low pressure. You know even the moments of quote unquote excitement You don't really get that Cathartic kind of those eruptions that are at least in mother so that even if it is kind of all one giant puzzle or allegory there or the characters aren't quite real or fully realized or dimensional, there's at least some you know some. There that this movie is all kind of it's not an. It needed a sad person in the landscape though it's just. That whole exchange again I mean he could still write that kind of thing and just So. Funny of just. People knock comprehending. Eddie the other than you know our that's like a photograph of. Kind. Of blowing my mind a little bit Scott because I didn't necessarily see that as a mission statement for this movie but that is exactly what Matt Meyer complaining about here is the the last act of the movie takes the sad person out of the landscape and replaces them with the sort of vague image of a sad person that you don't know. This ad person, which is sort of what she says where we are. Looking at the landscape perhaps. One of the things I thought I was watching this movie is just I don't know what's important here probably because it's Kaufman everything is important but I feel like you could go through it and pick out a dozen seemingly random lines from a lot of these conversations and take them away as a big thesis statement i. get the feeling that this is one of these fractional films where everything has significance and particularly everything has significance in terms of the kind of the unseen character, the janitor character, the character whose experiencing all of us, I feel like every moment that we have. With the parents probably represent something that happened to him with his parents as they aged you know is he was interacting with them like from youth to eventually their death because he's an older man and they're almost certainly gone I feel like all of it is probably significant but is there satisfaction ultimately in picking out the significance of such I'd like opaque images I think it just really comes down to your personal mood, your personal tastes and like how you interact with cinema yeah I. Agree. Though do have this thought much like you know if you compare him to somebody like. Alan Rene that what's GonNa look like in ten years or twenty years the scope of coffins career, and it's going to be one of those texts I think that come back to you because it is so full of moving parts and those parts look like. discombobulated pieces of ikya furniture. But I can see this is a movie that launched. A thousand. Doctoral papers or something, and just has that feeling of of a rich text that we're GonNa be unpacking for quite some time at least I feel compelled to do that if it felt to me like just a very large itch that needed to be scratched, which watched it more than once for this podcast because it was like, wow, this is something else in m not I don't know what it is. So I need to watch it again. Sometimes you have that feeling like I don't know what this is I don't want anything to do with it, which is another response, but that's where I stand. So what you're saying Scott is it's not bad once you stop feeling sorry for yourself because you're just a pig or even worse a pig infested with maggots. Pretty much. Oh. God I forgot the animated stuff See there's all kinds of stuff for that movie, an animated maggot-infested pig how can you not love it? Everything else in the me, it's deeply deeply fanatic. There's a lot to talk about left in this movie, but I think it's all going to be a little more interesting kind of bringing it into focus with being John Malkovich because these movies have so much in common while seemingly having little in common. So we'll be right back after this break to talk about the connections between being, John Malkovich and I'm thinking of ending things. A. Supposedly Fun things you'll never do again. Read Watt. It's a book of essays by Foster. Walls. I HAVE NOT A. Book of essays. I haven't read. The should we should find someplace. Tump these looking to note. At the couple there's all sticky. He's got this say about television. Pretty people tend to feel. Pretty people. Tend to be more pleasing to look at. The non pretty people but were talking about television the combination shear audience is in Quiet Psychic Interport, twenty images and. Start the cycle of an answer is pretty much his appeal roads of viewers on sense of security in the face of gazes. That's from. The Essay. Interesting. He killed them so Yeah. Yeah everybody knows it. Now, it's time for connections when we bring these two films together and talk about all the things they have in common. So here's the here's the thing guys. Recently, Charlie Kaufman came out with his first novel seven, hundred pages, aunt kind handful of people reviewed it, and I got an early copy and I was very excited to dive into it because I thought you know here we get to see what Charlie Kaufman does when he is not in any way constrained by production budget or values where to put the. Camera like what is he going to do with this infinite tapestry that he has and for the hundred pages that I read before? I put it down. Basically what he did was wallow in the depressive mind of a delusional racist sexist obnoxious solid cystic asshole who just goes on and on and on about how basically the world hasn't kowtowed him enough. The world hasn't deferred to him enough. He's not loved in the exact generous way that he wants to be by the world and yet with like every single page, he proves that he's entirely unlovable. And for the first time ever I started seeing this as the Kaufman theme the Kaufman character I started seeing how all of his works are kind of defined by this look at the sad delusional man who thinks he's the most important thing in the world can't escape his own head in the case of I'm thinking of ending things that feels very. Literal I mean we are literally stuck in the perspective of a like this old sad dying man who's trying to put together a fantasy life for himself to sustain himself. A can't even hold that together and being John Malkovich were were wrapped entirely around the the needs and the drives of Crag who is in a marriage that he's bringing nothing to he is in a relationship with a bunch of pets that he doesn't care about he meets a CO worker and immediately decides he has to have her and he has nothing to offer her. You know he's the equivalent of Scott Pilgrim when we recorded that commentary track work and we're hopefully going to get edited and released. Soon, we talked about the fact. That, he has nothing to offer Ramona flowers except a stale joke about the origins of Pacman and it's it feels like the same sort of thing here like he has nothing to offer her until he finds the magic portal. So what is it with Charlie Kaufman and like sad delusional men who want everybody to bench their whims maybe these are personal. It'd be too slight Charlie coffin but I mean I think he has a personality, these other types of characters that he he puts forward these relentlessly self deprecating portraits of potentially who who he thinks. He is maybe his worst image of himself is what ends up on the screen and gets deconstructed in the harshest possible light I mean that that's kind of where these films get their their darkness where these films get their absurdity in their humor to kind of go to the the far ends of depression in Narcissism and pretension, and all of these other. What we've come to know as the Charlie Kaufman character, I mean, it's hard not to read an autobiographical element into it. When the prime example of it is a character whose name is Charlie Kaufman in the movie adaptation like all the things you're describing our president in that character and that character is Charlie. Kaufman now it's not strictly accurate in the sense that he has a twin and all these things, but it's difficult to not read him or at least his fears neuroses about himself into these men when you see something like that. So yeah, I mean again, I don't know whether it is this is who he is or if it is, this is who he fears he is and. There's an awful lot of general anxiety and fears and neuroses in all of his movies that are not just limited to that that I think perhaps we're being more generous to Charlie Kaufman and I do think he's an incredible writer incredibly smart and funny person so I don't want to be like, oh, he's just he's just this terrible schlub whose managed to make these movies like you could charitably or more generously call it. You know soul baring about his fears of how he is or who he seems to be or how he presents himself more than it is his true nature or or how other people see one thing that I really latched onto with both these moves in with coffin and. is his interest in interior already in life of the mind in how the films are a way of giving very clever expression to the abstractions of of that interior it's all in the concedes his films are so have these huge hooks to them. Being John Malkovich certainly does of this portal inside. John. Malkovich's had to be can't get was like Weirdo. Hollywood. The sense like his movies have these unbelievably big. not this new one. Of anything that would surely doesn't have much but the reason why he's like he's able to use these ideas to. Get into almost like into metaphysics in a way I mean just to kind of just take the things that he's thinking about finding expression in those things through plots where everything's external and amy I'm thinking of anything's is a little different than being John Malkovich and more like the next to New York that you do feel like you're almost going deeper and deeper inside the head of these characters particularly. Jesse Buckley's character. You're already start at such an intimate place. You already start with her narrating and telling you how she feels about how thoughts. Thoughts about how thoughts nobody can fake thought or something like that that she says, the beginning I mean i. just you know you feel this immersed inside this person inside these characters and That's extremely important to Charlie Kaufman's work. It's critical that he find some cinematic way to express interior, which is usually the job of a novel. It's not usually something that films do well, but Charlie Kaufman is Kinda cracked that code whether you think he cracks the new one is another question because it's an adaptation of a book that he didn't right but it's something that he is constantly doing his movies. Yeah. I think it's interesting that I mean the the fundamental setup of anomalies. is basically seeing the world from inside the viewpoint of a pretty banal man who just doesn't see the humanity in other people everybody looks and sounds a to him as he's concerned and eternal sunshine is about literally traveling inside somebody's head and seeing his panic as he starts to lose things from inside his head this he tries to hang on to what's important there. So like looking at that particularly with these two films I think it's really interesting that the first several times people travel into Malkovich's head. He is not doing anything that would be interesting to anybody. You know he's eating toast he's putting water in his Coffee Cup before he leaves, he's polishing down his. Own Eyebrows he's taking a shower. He is going through a cadillac like all of these things that are incredibly mundane and are so exciting to everybody who's getting to experience them because they're a different point of view because they're somebody else's body somebody else's world somebody else's life and I think that that's interesting. Really subtle way of really smart and telling observation iconic gives the film I mean it would be so easy for that movie to be about people falling into Malkovich's head while he's banging gorgeous starlets while he is a meeting the Paparazzi while he's hanging out with extremely famous people while he's on stage in the middle of getting a huge standing ovation like all of. These things that stars get to do, and we're not seeing any of those things through his eyes through other people's perspective. It's all just about how even the most mundane thing becomes exciting. If you get to get out of yourself for a change, I think that that's really neat and then in I'm thinking of ending things were similarly we're spending so much time theoretically like in this man's head and we're experiencing all of his anxieties instead of experiencing his his mundane day to day we're experiencing his disillusion and the slow disintegration of his mind, and it becomes so much more interesting than you can imagine like the day to day of being a janitor being it's funny to. Hear like when you hear descriptions of these two movies that are so different in. So many ways that there are a lot of these interesting kind of echoes of one another I mean just even the the very idea when we boil down, I'm thinking of ending things at the end when we see that essentially all of these characters are not who they appear to be. That is kind of a connection to being John Malkovich where we have people who I look like John Malkovich but I'm actually John Cusak inside the body of John Malkovich and that's very much present in this movie in that all of these characters ultimately in I'm thinking of anything's alternately appear to be. You know either fragments of this janitors, personality or fantasies of this janitor or mouthpieces of points of view of this janitor, and so that's an interesting. Another interesting thing that they have connecting them when I wonder if Kaufman just spends a lot of time worrying about getting outside his own head. Because his characters. So often are either trapped in heads, which literally happens at the end of being John Malkovich or are escaping into other heads or being liberated from other heads through often through artistic expression as much as anything else. Think about this. One thing I think about it to assume that all writers feel as why certainly do is you get tired of your own voice it away and you want to transcend it in somewhat it's like I really wish I could write like this person. Writing. Not Ferociously nodding. I WANNA see the world like that person does that incite God I wish i. had that insight right and that's part of the appeal of movies in general is getting to see the world from the perspective of other characters I mean that's one of the key charms of going to the movies is to see the world through the eyes of another character it's he just has. Made that aspect that's kind of buried subtext store that's kind of intrinsic in all movies. He is kind of made that his kind of one of his main focal points one of his main pieces of text he makes it liberal I mean sometimes very literal in the case of some, these movies were describing where it becomes very much the you know the hook of the movie. It certainly isn't being John. Malkovich. See the world through the eyes of another another's. It plays into another kind of idea connection I. Think we should get into which identity and identity shifts identity theft as you have. That is kind of getting outside of yourself. When you're able to slip like that from one personality to another, we see Lodhi baking the transformation. She makes you we see Craig becoming the type of artists that he wants to become. That's liberating in those movies in thinking of anything, it's not fantasy necessarily, which were you who's a fragment of made up things a lot of ways in the case of. Jesse Buckley's character in the sense that the poetry that she's presenting is not around in the art that she's presenting not around the film criticism she's presenting his own, but it's still done the last kind of exciting. To, have the possibility of being able to be in another form to take on aspects of personalities that are not your own to be able to transcend the body and all that other stuff. I think there's a yearning almost at the center of Kaufman's work that kind of comes out in some of these films that can very much desire for kind of freedom and liberation that you're describing that comes with switching to another perspective going into. Someone else's head to me. That's like directly connected to the overwhelming claustrophobia of everything else in movies like that. We were talking about on the last episode in the seven and a half floor and an something we didn't mention I. Don't think and I'm thinking of anything is the whole movie window box. It's four by three. Every single shot in this movie feels more claustrophobic than at theoretically could if he had shot at wide-screen in some way. And so you already like even in the moments where they're not confined to that house or that car the frame never gets very wide and the characters are almost always shown in close up. So there they just seem confined by the frame of the movie itself. So I, think these two things the kind of that liberation side and that Claustrophobia side they go hand in hand in, they're very president and both movies I think both of. These movies also when you're talking about that desire to escape, you're also just talking about that desire to connect like both of moves are very much about loneliness and in being John. Malkovich, everybody kind of tries to escape loneliness through sex through connecting to each other physically even if they always have to be in John Malkovich to do it, they're all looking for a sense of connection I think the most interesting expression of that though comes down. Leicester eventually deciding to spend the rest of his existence in Malkovich's had with like a dozen other people. He talks about how lonely he is because of his imaginary speech impediment which is executive assistant has foisted upon him, but he seemed so happy in the end to be in John Malkovich with all these other people for most of US hell. Is other people. You know the idea of eternally living in a tiny space with a dozen other people sounds like I said, well, like no exit but also just like hell as far as I'm concerned sounds like the ultimate in Claustrophobia. But for the the person in this movie for all of these people together, it's togetherness it's connection it's an end to. The loneliness, they can't escape, and then in I'm thinking of ending things I mean this movie just drips with loneliness. You you get the impression that everything that's happening in it is happening because this the central character, this janitor character is so alone and can't connect to anyone no one will listen to him. No one cares about him. So he's developed. This elaborate interior order to him and it expresses itself through these elaborate fantasies again about Romance About Lust and love and longing and a connection and violence all of these things that are just a way of expressing into himself like all of these rich and vivid things that nobody in his life wants to hear that nobody in his life can relate to. And everything you're describing now connects to another sort of connection that I was really picking up on watching them this week, which is this sort of kind of fascination. But also this like terror about aging and bodies and the breakdown of bodies and I'm thinking of ending things the characters you know in a blink of an eye, go from being middle aged to being on their literal deathbeds and You know I guess that could be a commentary on how time seems to slip away from us so quickly. But when you look at that in conjunction with being done now Quebec there, you have characters like physically in the case of Doctor Lester like. Trying to escape from mortality by jumping from body to body when they get too old like it's this fantasy of not having to get older and being able to remain eternally young or at least you know avoiding the the last bit of of aging you know he's not necessarily young when they take over body their forty four years old or whatever the thing is but just this fantasy of of not having to get super old not having to die being able to live forever and not having to worry about whatever is is happens when you die I, think that's definitely another thing that connects the two movies and is a perpetual source of. Fascination of Charlie Kaufman that I'm sure we can all think of examples from his other movies as well for sure I. think that's really well observed and I think it also chains nicely in Sioux kind of further iteration of that connection. You know as people's bodies are breaking down as they're getting older as their minds are breaking down either under outside influence or because of age everything in the movies is fracturing and both of these films end up being about breakdowns about disjunction where everything falls apart in a really surreal way. Malkovich like going into his own mind and experiencing the Malkovich averse like that's what people remember about the film and it's Hilarious but. It's also just the sort of this terrifying of narcissism where nobody in the world really exist six up to him and you see that exact same idea iterative out again in anomaly saga. But as far as I am thinking anything's the whole movie is a breakdown in the whole movie is missile disillusion of mind and watching it progress from a relatively stable fantasy to kind of an environment where everything is a reference nothing entirely make sense it's all beautiful up, but it doesn't. It doesn't all hang together in a linear or logical kind of way I think both of these movies are about breakdowns of the structure of I'm thinking many things are so hanky. Unusual in kind of an interesting break from what he he usually does his I think about like you know how like Animation movies all kind of just ultimately have a what do they call it like a Rube Goldberg type of ending right? You know. Where everything just kind of kind of syncopated and there's kind of a chase or something, and there's a lot of action going on I mean that's basically how Charlie Kaufman scripts work like they get to a point where things just go haywire in happens in being John Malkovich with there's a lot of frantic action of that. There's a ton of frantic action and the end of eternal sunshine at significantly New York of course gets completely insane I in its final bit but here it's kind of like if I mean I guess you could say that the last fourth of the film, the High School is its own special sorta crazy but it Doesn't progress in the same way as is other from behaves a little differently which is again one of the things that I find intriguing about it that doesn't have any kind of predictable structure to it or escalation that you necessarily can anticipate. It's it's is its own beast I. Feel like we'd be missing out if we didn't at least note that these are both movies about relationships that are falling apart and where a kind of like clingy desperate man hangs onto a woman who is not into the relationship in the same way that he is like even leaving aside Craig's instantaneous lust for maxine and his utter willingness to portray lobby for. The connection between Craig and lobbies from the beginning. Seems they seem like roommates it always feels weird to me in that movie I'm when we get to the point of them being married because there's no chemistry sense connection and they don't quite seem old enough to be having that that movie thing. I mean to some degree that real life thing. But you know the symbolic movie thing of we've been together too long of a spark is dead I this new sense that there was ever a spark there and in the same survey, find yourself asking what Lucia and jake ever had in common. But that becomes part of the taxed as you keep getting different views on how they got together in the first place as the story keeps breaking down and. Maybe it's about her inability to express yourself and step herself or maybe it's about her actual contempt for him or maybe it's about something else entirely the narrative keeps shifting it's hard to tell but either way that male female relationship in both of these movies is just so fraught and so full of all of that loneliness and longing in breakdown we've been talking about and pretty much every other Charlie Kaufman movie that I can come at the moment as well. He really hasn't done I mean his one really romantic movie is about, how is a good thing to live through a break up? Hold onto memories of relationships that don't work. That's the most romantic film that he's made, which is kind of amazing because this, this would not rank for. As far as This would this would rank on the list of all time worst date movies no matter what you think about it. I could. I could see to some degree I feel like any movie that gives you something to talk about after the movie is potentially a good date movie but yes, sure not a an upper. It's sure not a movie that you go home and make out after unless you're just trying to avoid talking about the movie anymore. Well, being John Malkovich is streaming on Netflix and can be rented or purchased via digital outlets. It is also available on criterion DVD and blu-ray. Things in early Netflix exclusive, we'll be right back with your next pitcher shower. Finally, it's time to catch each other up on films or film related items. We've seen in the interim since our last podcast, we call this year next picture show in the hopes, it will put some interesting choices on your radar in keeping with a Charlie Kaufman kind of like Meta, theme of the night I'm going to ask me hey me what the world has been good for you lately. Usually. We don't make the post go first on these, but I wanNA talk about a different Charlie Kaufman film and it just seemed like the best transition point. It is entirely possible that anybody listening to this does not need to be told to see Schenectady New York. It is possible that you either have an you hate it and right now you're laughing at me or that you having you love it you don't need my recommendation but it just. It such an unforeseen film compared to turn sunshine compared to being John Malkovich. It's always felt like an under appreciated film filmed me and to me it's the film that kind of most clearly and thoroughly expresses the Charlie Kaufman mentality the first time I saw this movie un- unlike error absent. Co Host genevieve like I'm not a movie crier but this movie made me cry and it wasn't because of any of the emotional aspects of the film it was. If, you can believe it because of the structure there are very few films that make me cry because the structure is so like clever that in some way I consider kind of like fundamentally. Insightful about the human condition Schenectady. New York Stars Philip Seymour Hoffman as a playwright who embarks on this like ridiculous outsized quest to create this art installation that kind of becomes in a way his whole world maybe the whole world and the movie is just kind of a process of him falling down the rabbit hole of his ambition of his own creativity of his own desire to express art and to me there was just the way that it unfolds captures so much about both how easy it is for artists to fall into their own naval. How easy it is for artists to get lost in the art and how there is a degree to which no art is ever really going to accurately express real life everything that said in I I'm thinking of ending things regarding the difficulty appreciating art that doesn't have somebody standing in at telling you how to feel I feel that all of that is expressed in Schenectady New York in much subtler way through just the attempts to create this outside ambitious art piece and never really be able to to get it under control to to grasp what it's for. Or what it's going to involve because the attempt to create real life within an artwork is. In fundamentally impossible you know life is big and art is small and like the connections that it makes can feel big but it only ever really captures like fragments or parts or aspects of life I. Loved this movie. It's got Catherine Keener in it again, it's always good to see her it's got so many of Kaufman's kind of obsessions and functions again, including the sad man who wants the entire world to kind of bend over backwards and do what his ambitions say that it should and I've of imagine that revisiting it now would be pretty bitter sweet because. Miss Philip Seymour. Hoffman. But I just never think that there's a bad time to revisit Schenectady New York and of course, it's a on all of the usual streaming services. It's pretty accessible these days it's tastic. It's one of those definitely grows on repeat viewings in just Kinda. Grateful that Charlie Kaufman and they Seymour Hoffman got to work together because of course, those to have so much in common I feel like Philip Seymour Hoffman is played that type of character the Charlie Kaufman type so often so they actually do it is great and I think there's kind of a thing with two key in in adaptation in particular that the is revealing of. Process over the artistic process and the difficultly you can think of ending things, but it's hard to actually put an end to what you're what you're doing to put a conclusion to the artwork that you're working on and so it just keeps building and growing and becoming becoming this this unwieldy thing that you can't tame a think it's fantastic mad have you seen it or do you have any thoughts on it? It's a good movie. But. I will say, don't I guess jumping back a little because I did promise people would get into the title of I'm thinking of ending things that we didn't I. You're right the Schenectady. is about someone who doesn't know how to end things arguably, I'm thinking of ending things some about somebody who Doesn't know how to enter relationship. But at the same time is representative of somebody who is ending his life and doesn't exactly know how to go about doing that. Now again, everything in the worlds of Charlie Kaufman's people is falling apart and I. Think if you look kind of the range of you'll find a lot of people who have troubles with closure you know Joel in eternal sunshine is where he is because. He was thinking of ending things by cutting someone out of his life, and then he couldn't seal the deal basically even if you don't think I'm thinking of ended things is the Best Charlie Kaufman movie it's the Best Charlie Kaufman title because it could be the title of all of his movies. You literally call any of his movies I'm thinking of ending things and it would be appropriate. I think you're exactly right on that. Scott I think you're thinking of beginning things by telling us a different movie. Sure. This is all freely room but I I had a chance to revisit the nineteen sixty three. Paul Newman Movie Hud recently and very strongly recommended because again, it's like every other movie I've seen in the last six months it is a pandemic movie. 'cause it's about sick cows, diseases, cows on a ranch. But what was really interesting to me about it in I think it's very interesting about Paul Newman. As an actor like here is a person and this is nineteen, sixty three. This is one of the most. Beautiful Charismatic Stars to ever grace the silver screen and he was determined to push back against that as much as possible in spent career playing. The rascals. Sometimes you know in films like Butch Cassidy I guess are the staying. But here he's just he's an anti hero he plays a guy who is Is, a womanizer sleeps with other men's wives who betrays his father who's very salt of the Earth who was terrible influence on his nephew who? Who has a very tortured relationship with their housekeeper and to behaves dishonourably from the beginning and yet there's complexity to the character and there's vividness to the look of the film. This is a film that was based on a Larry mcmurtry novel. I can't remember the name of the novel but any case it's beautiful to look at Geelong, how a shot in black and white wide-screen the won an Oscar for it. I think it's worth revisiting. Just you know is a really interesting movie and just a good example of a star you'll pushing back against their image and trying to bring layers of sort of darkness and complexity to a face that everybody is inclined to love Hud. Why nineteen sixty three loom. So large in our the next picture show imagination right now, the whole, the throat because Lord of the flies was a another black and white film from nine hundred, sixty three wasn't. Let's funny that you would bring him another movie about somebody. Pushing back against their image to you. Being John Malkovich night I do my best. See you see now suddenly, Hud doesn't seem completely out of nowhere. I feel good about it. It's all. It's all I would watch it with the Hustler to hustlers nine, hundred, sixty one and also black and white. Also him playing a character who is deeply deeply flawed. So watching both it's all connected. All Art is one art. All ambition is all about the pandemic. Every single damn film is about the pandemic. What about you, Matt any is already pandemic related entertainment for us Yeah. My mind works as a good pandemic. Movie to doesn't have any sick cows but I think. The message I don't. Yeah. Sorry. But it I think the message is certainly timely and It's welcome and my move is. I know what this film is. I'm finding this description hilarious. This this movie is most welcome right now is bill and Ted. Face. The music, the third film in the trilogy. I'm sure it was always planned to happen just this way I guess, the the writers, the original writers who was planned maybe they wanted to make a third one for. Taken it's taken them awhile and I? Guess the the benefit of that is I think that they've stumbled into a really. Nice spot for bill and Ted, which is you know in the in the first movies they have their so young and innocent, and they have been told by prophets from the future by George. Carlin that their music is going to change the world, and of course, we now find them thirty years later and it hasn't because how could it really and so we get to see bill and Ted has kind of middle aged. Same guys but you know things just haven't quite worked out hell hell. They wanted they haven't changed the world and brought about Utopia and it's just. Not. To be too personal but it's a relatable relatable physician to be I. Guess to to feel like you're getting older and maybe you haven't achieved all the things you wanted to achieve when you were younger. And it's also a very funny and sweet movie. They kind of do this lovely thing where they they were able to bring back all the things you enjoyed in the first two movies without really rehashing them. You know you you. You travel through time you see famous people of history the grim reaper is involved, but it's not a simple rehash of what they did before and in terms of it as a quarantine quarantine meant or as a pandemic viewing. You know I think where the movie arrives at in a lot of ways is not surprising the solution to the problem that bill and Ted have in this movie, which is that Basically. There's a some sort of. A cataclysm that's going to occur in the length of the movie. It's almost a real time movie. If they don't finally write the song that's going to fix the world that they've been prophesized for all these years to write. And what you comes down to is this kind of suggestion on the movies part that regardless of whether one song could magically fix the world if. People tried to help one another that maybe that is the kind of thing that could start to fix the world and right now that's a i. feel like is beneficial to my own psyche and it's I watched all three movies. This week I had never seen bogus journey before It's really good. It's just as good as the verse movie and I felt like this one is just as good as the other ones. It's very welcome entry in the series and I, I'm sure it's playing in movie theaters. I. Saw it on a screener I. It's going to be available for rental or maybe in drive ins I think it'd be a really fun drive in movie if you have a drive in by you or I would definitely recommend renting it. and seeing it at home maybe enjoy it with a beverage or two would probably be a very Bodet shis way to enjoy it. Up. And Delivers more than I expected, it would and and you know and and connecting it to I'm thinking of ending things there is a fair amount of talk in that movie about time and time moving through you as opposed to you moving through time. And I. Might. Be Repeated Verbatim and bill and Ted face the music is it lightly more profound way dude but it's also kind of a Meta movie I mean on some level, the idea of villain Ted travelling through time meeting different versions of themselves literally trying to steal the idea for the song from their own future like trying to create something and not being able to get a handle on what they want to create knowing that they have the capacity to create something important but not being able to get their these all feel like really strong Charlie Kaufman themes and a lot of the. Movies. Action comes down to how much they love their wives and the fact that their wives are kind of feeling disaffected present disconnected from them, and there's a lot of kind of the body horror about getting older too in the in this movie as well like there's some. Yeah I think Charlie Kaufman would really relate to seeing all the old man makeup wear over the course of the movie as well. Oh, my God pollock we've cracked it wide open dylan ten three is secretly yet another Charlie Kaufman film. Do you feel like Jimmy Stewart might enjoy the? Yeah the Most, excellent Dudes, why'd you? Break down to its. Core. What you know what they are, Scott. Wild stallions. A lot of thoughts on villain Ted and I don't want to follow up on that any slight bit and all maybe we'll talk about bill and Ted a later when more people have seen it, maybe people will have some feedback about that film. In the meantime, I'm just going to see the stage. Jimmy Stewart as one should own deserve as are more I should say Outgrow. I can read you tell me it's your show. I'm just a guest, your your Jimmy go to Washington they need you there. Well that's it. For this edition of next pitcher show our next pairing will come out. September twenty second and twenty ninth Scott You WanNa. Tell me what's coming up next as parents. One of the effects of quarantine is that your children have very little access to people other than you. So you have a lot of control over the inputs they get their day to day life. Now, as a responsible father, I would never use the opportunity of fuck with their heads but not. So the parents and our next pairing. The New Miranda July movie kajillions air. Evan. Rachel. Wood's stars as the only child of a pair of small time gifters played by Richard Jenkins and Debra winger. All she's known her entire life are the schemes they pull the stay afloat. But her worldview changes when a fourth and more normal person played by Gina Rodriguez enters into the picture. The idea of parents who cruelly limit their children's point of view calls to mind Greek Director Yorgos Latham owes two thousand, nine breakthrough dog tooth. The three young adult children and dog tooth are kept penned into a country estate and terrorized by parents who monitor them. So closely, they've invented their own vocabulary words. In both films once a window to the outside cracks, just a little chaos ensues. If you WANNA play along at home could Jillian air is coming to theaters in a limited way on September twenty fifth but will be on Vod, a week after that dog tooth, which we'll discuss I is up on criterion channel among other options in the meantime would love to hear your feedback on this week's discussion of being John Malkovich I'm thinking of ending things Charlie Kaufman in general bill and Ted Three. And anything else film related you'd like to talk about we want include your thoughts on future episodes. You can leave a short voice at seven, seven, three, two, three, four, nine, seven, three zero or email us at comments at next pitcher show dot net, and we may read it on a future episode of the show finally before closing out this week's episode Matt Singer where can people find you and your work I'm the editor and critic at screencrush dot com on twitter at met singer. Think that's about it anywhere else to find me. A lying in a heap of remedies. Jersey docks you on the. I wrote a I wrote a spiderman book you can find that. His fighter man, you can find that on various book-selling platforms. What is the title of this book that they can find? It's Spiderman from amazing to spectacular the definitive comic art collection fantastic rolls off the town. Scott to my, where can people find you these days? You'd you can find me on twitter Scott, underscore tobias. Mostly. grouse about horrible thing is that things are in the world and then and then you can find my work at the New York Times the ringer vulture guardian other fine outlets job you. Tasha. I am on twitter at Tasha Robinson I am the film and TV editor at Polygon Dot com where you can occasionally find me writing about film you can find. Our Co host Keith Phipps Writing About Film at Vulture mel magazine, the Ringer and many other fine outlets. You could find him on twitter at. K.. Phipps three thousand, our producer genevieve is the deputy culture editor at vulture and she's on twitter at genevieve. Koskinen. You can stay updated on the next picture show by visiting next picture show dot net via twitter at next pitcher pod. And via facebook at facebook dot com slash next pitcher show you can contribute to our Patriots and get bonus content patron dot com slash next pitcher show, and if you haven't subscribed show on the podcasts already please consider it were so lonely we're striving every day for connection our minds are disintegrating it's making us go to very Meta places so we want more listeners we want. More prominence and apple podcasts. Descriptions are an important part getting there while you're there, we appreciate every rating review. Every thumbs up helps us find new listeners and keep our sad man lives going. Thanks to Dan the Snake Jake's for his assistance in producing this podcast. The next picture show is proud to be part of the film's fighting family of PODCASTS. Please tune in next time. GonNa, Leave. Outside. Myself, with Ri-. Give me. Too.

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