Grin: A More Private, Lighter Bitcoin - Ep.114
Everyone. Welcome to unchain your life resource for all things crypto. I'm your host Lorsch fit of new on his now on YouTube. You can find the most recent episodes there every week on unchain podcast channel. And we'll soon be getting the full archive. Also, if you're not yet subscribed to my weekly newsletter. Go now to unchain podcasts. Conto sign up within months took her NC anti money laundering relations, global for you. Ready? Avoid stiff penalties or blacklisting by deploying -ffective anti money laundering, tools for exchanges and crypto businesses. The same tools used by regulators Cypris is security crypto economy. My guest today are Daniel Ellsberg and Michael Cordner core team members of grin, welcome Daniel. And michael. Are you? Why don't we start with you? Tell the story of mimbo the technology that spawned grin for listeners who don't know the tail like, bitcoins origin story, it has a mystery at its core that makes technology even more intriguing. Sure, so mimbo is privacy and hand seeing and scalable Porco for blockchain its is name comes from the tongue time curse in Harry Potter that events afflicted from spilling secrets. It was a it was originally proposed in twenty sixteen by Saddam person called the temp Tom Elvis Jetta sore, which is the French equivalent of Lord vulva MAURICE from the Harry Potter series on the it was shared as a text file at on the bitcoin wizards serum through tore link the link to the paper was dropped there. And then this person disappeared. We haven't heard from them again. Michael when it you tell how that led to the development of grin. Sure, while diner said that paper was dropped a few months later in around saves red Massembe of two thousand sixteen someone again appeared on the same channel by the name of Ignatius. Several who is another character in the Harry Potter series suicide ethic you stole the visibility from death. That's enough. Unser? Any study was Brad together? A new information of the middle protocol on it was called grin ninety had the source about builder than ready to go on the the project kind of off from there. Wow. Who ever would have thought? Well, I'm sure JK rolling never would have thought that her creation would be used in this manner. But I do think the names and the technology do go well together, so one you guys describe what grin is or is trying to be sociable grins grins main goal was to be is to be better money. And it's what it is. It also bills itself kind of on our homepage as a lightweight implementation of the minimum photo. So even though I mean, I mean great is an entire block vanity self and on top of just the core credible protocol, they're all sorts of decisions of things that have to go into the building of a working mock Chan, but it aims to be very very very light. And as kind of non prescriptive is also a site with deals with those two has to basically. So so one of the big. Important points of protocol is that it allows you to verify transactions being valid without having to store them tire history of the blockchain unlike previous method symbols of blockchain, I it builds on a previous research a lot of it's made by Gregory Maxwell in confidential transactions one way aggregated signatures coin join an anew in cold cut through and it basically allows you to store much less data on the chain. And in general, much, less information sewing mimbo, there are no amounts. You don't need to have addresses as stored on the chain. And instead what you keep on chain is very minimal set of that. Which is basically a set of input. Sit about puts that are crypto graphically blinded. You could say in don't really mean a lot to anyone aside from the people who are actually. Involved in the transaction this allows for much easier sinking faster sinking and less size of the blockchain itself as well. Which is why you're getting these scalable properties. Yeah. When I was learning about this. There was something really sort of mind blowing. It's just like if you really understand the coin, then you're like, oh, this is kind of a better way to do it. You know, it just with that level of efficacy or kind of the lightweight -ness of of the blockchain it just it just feels like this was built by somebody who deeply understands bitcoin and kind of what the problems are with it. So what about the technology captured your imagination why out of all the different crypto projects? Did you decide to work on this one? I came across the project a few months after after put out there, and I was kind of to the technologies kind of go into Marysville changes elements in cryptography applied publicly rather it's kind of a lot of self Brady kind of that. I like doing this kind of a technical perspective kind of enjoy coding enjoy working on it. And obviously cryptocurrencies are interesting. I was kind of looking around for one of them to join. But I couldn't I didn't really see anything out there. That was kind of thought would be worth joining the time not bump because the projects themselves are joining doing or because rather because maybe they're too far long. There's not much to look I couldn't see myself adding anything to bitcoin itself at this stage. Other pundits out there may be kind of, you know, a clone of big climate the change here and there, but nothing really substantial or when I came across a grin to me. This is really really new in some of the really have a lot of potential. So that that's kind of why I decided to to join it and start getting involved in it. And on my end, I've been following the crypto space since about bitcoin eleven dismissed but first bitcoin twenty thirteen but what always on the was always on the sidelines monitoring paying attention reading catching up project made it through twenty seventeen in all the craziness. There weren't really any projects. Now where peeling speaking to me instead, it was kind of happy being the sidelines and then about a year ago, I found out about this project about mimbo, and I basically fell down the rabbit hole. Just couldn't start stop. Researching it, and I found this, you know, there were seen presentations about the minimum protocol and that led me to grin, and I started lurking in reading up on on the project sell from seeing these developers in development community that was very open was very focused on building. And had no intentions of, you know, making money from it or or a profiteering from it and were purely in it for the technology in early twenty team that felt borderline crazy and also like a complete breath of fresh air that was really appealing to me in really encourage me to get involved in the project and at the same time as well. I was doing some research for my day job back then about bitcoin transactions and the regulatory requirements around that accepting receiving between deposits withdrawals. It was pretty much at the same time. In in had like, a profound impact on Wyatt's going to to grin was that. You would you would see these guidances regulators telling companies not in order for you to accept a payments from from customers you need to go through you need to have the deposits the come in and go through a analysis tool. Also, like third party. Can I see analysis tool like like some of the well-known actors in space in the end based on the score? You can then choose to accept the deposits or otherwise you have to refund it returned back from where you came from. And this was just mind blowing for me because essentially what this means these not used Amish kind of it's almost like a credit score. But it's about score of how good your money it. And that made me think a lot about fungibility in an whites very important to have under -bility on the base layer of the protocol in order for companies to be able to transact in a way that doesn't create a h-. Huge amount of friction. Yeah. In a way, as like, of course, you know, obviously, we do know that when there are crimes that happen with money than often the people who transact with each other are potentially both engaging and something elicit and yet on the other hand, you could also be the recipient of funds that were involved in Elissa transaction and have no idea. So, but I actually I wanted to go back in ask you to expand a little bit more on the philosophy of grin. When you were talking about how it was a breath of fresh air and and stuff like that. Because I do agree that there is something pretty different in striking really about grins approach. An I yeah, I want to kind of pull out more of what differentiates grin from some the other recent projects. Sure. So so Grimm's it was launched on January fifteen this year and before that had been in development for about two and a half years. And from the get-go it's been done as a completely open source project driven by the community funded by the community as well any any development funding received as as been bad based on the nation's there's been no I see. Oh, no pre mine. There's no death tax. There's no anything essentially that allocates funds through the protocol layer to the development team. Instead, it's it was fairly launched. Meaning that anybody who wanted could mine it I approve of work mind coin, and it's open for anybody to us, and there's no incentives on oh, no special circumstances, not benefits early early adopters early contributors more than anybody else. Yeah. We're gonna talk more about that. Because I think I do see how it's inspiring. And yet, I also think it has. Has led to some hurdles I guess I would say that you guys have faced. But one other thing I wanted to expound upon a little bit was the comparison of grin to bitcoin. And we talked about kind of some of the similarities and also some of the differences. But one thing also that's kind of different is that they seem to have different goals. Bitcoin is now being thought of as a store of value while green is aiming to become a medium of exchange. Why did the project decide upon that goal? This refers back to our our emissions schedule. Nomi what we start comparing grid amid a wing, but we have to be a little bit mindful of sorry of comparing ridden in Clement needs mindful that bitcoin was launched ten years ago and was a containing technology at the time. So so some of its original kind of survey general purposes may not have been when it turned out to be. So I mean, the paper self stated the Clinton supposed to be digital cash says it became clear that the emissions are the very limited emission schedule. You know? You know, led to these to mount of of deflation amid the story since been changed sale. Now, what's up? Now. It's the store value in our case in grin be very much. Would like, you know, as as been congress originally match to do, but we would like to be used as Abedian exchange as opposed to a store value, which is why we've decided on various simple emission schedule as one one grin for second sixty grand per block, basically forever instead of having a very Denison schedule. This is something I wanted to ask about because. So obviously, the the emission schedules seem different on the surface because bitcoin has the twenty one million bitcoin cap which incentivizes people to get a piece early like, you know, a bitcoin or a fraction of bitcoin at hold onto that. And that would then drive up the value of all the bitcoins. So grins approach is different because there is no cap, but there's this consistent inflation in perpetuity of one grin per second. But the thing is that they have the same outcome. Like overtime grins emission rate will have the same effect of the block reward having ZIM bitcoin. And what I mean by that is in bitcoin. The inflation was high in the early years were fifty new bitcoins every ten minutes. And that's when the circulating supply was low then dropped at twenty five, and it's now twelve point five soon it'll be six point two five. And then even though in grin there. No having 's the emission rate by sting constant starts out as a high percentage of circulating supply. And then eventually just becomes a smaller percentage over decades, which basically results eventually being somewhat negligible. So in that sense. That's how I'm home confused like how can grin go after this meeting of exchange goal and try to get people to use it. And and I even saw on your documentation that you believe that this monetary policy will discourage hoarding, but I don't understand how that will happen. If the affect of the monetary policies seems to me at least to be the same. Maybe there's just something. I don't understand. No, you're right. My thoughts two points. I mean, it's not so much that there's a hobby is limited number it set the inflation rate is predictable. And so we all many growing concert collection. Now, we can point thirty years. So now said Hamad they're going to be in that. So that that's really what we think the important thing is here as far as, you know, you're right. The inflation rate approaches zero basically, so you get to a point where you might not be mexic- anymore. Britain's because you know, there's basically no appreciable. Inflation going off to while. But let's be honest bonus time. This a going kind of go around saying that the Joyce in Greenwich bacon, in this regard are very conservative. And this is absolutely as far as I know the first major coin to do this as into not to have a having a not to have a limited emission schedule. So I I don't think we've had gone out there at, you know, instead, you know, traces in inflation schedule. I mean, kind of disappointing cryptocurrency development from what we're doing. Now is very very radical approach here, we hear all sorts about it everywhere, we go. So I was about to say, it's great that you the pointed out Mora in it. It really is a conservative approach and personally I would have loved to have in a more flation. But 'cause because these questions I was asking myself as well when I got him most. But the amount of I think the comments commentary on the sidelines from from people can approaching the project, I. I think the narrative has a big role to play here. And with what when grins emission schedule is quote, unquote unlimited. It has a lot of effect on people's minds in how they approach the coin of we've seen that just in the comments. I'm not sure that's gonna last game in tame itself. But it's very much. I think has this effective thinking that the green is not gonna be with much more. Everybody's sitting doomed, you know, the values go down so much which is great in my opinion in if you're trying to build an exotic cash like functionality because then people are not gonna think twice about spending it, which is really what's important in order to drive adoption. I would've loved to see like over time in a much more aggressive. But I think as Michael was pointing at this was already very radical step apparently in the space and. I think at least we're going the right direction and to to be fair to point out. I don't think it would have been possible to to have this. If it wasn't for the success of bitcoin, right in a way, we're standing on the on the shoulders of bitcoin having proven the concept of other cryptocurrency to some degree, and I don't think it would have been possible with with unlimited emission back in two thousand nine, but because of bitcoin we can now take it one step further say, right? This is in her unlimited emission is still very conservative. When other thing that I was wondering, though, is if you say centrally as pointed out the inflation rate, the the way or the emission, you know, at least yet you can push this narrative that it's going to be different from the coin. But like I said ineffective. It is pretty much the same. But the other thing is so with grin unlike with bitcoin. Well, no, actually in this regard. I guess are. Similar because somebody needs a bitcoin address. But but anyway, so to send somebody grin they have to agree to accept it. But like who's going to want to accept a new currency of the narrative is that it's going to quickly depreciate so in that regard like how do you plan? If you if your goal is to get medium of exchange, then how are you going to do that? And is there some plan to get stores to accept grin or like how you know. How are you going to make this medium of exchange goal happen? Sure. I think I think it's very early in the project life cycle at the stage where grain is only a few months old. So this is something that is going to have to take some time to to grow and mature system wells, there are right now say kind of the main use use cases are buying grins and putting them in a wallet rides or you mind, grains, mining pool your cash out from the morning pool in either to change or you put it back into your wallet. I think that those use cases are. Gonna be dominating for awhile. Now over time though, because there are there are more grins minted every every day every seconds in new green put out circulation. There's gonna be a lot of users holding a lot of grin and some businesses are gonna find that attracted in terms of speaking to like a audience where they can sell products to specific doing to us because the except great that's one one way of starting to get some early adoption another another way that will happen over time was is big enough user base. Or even the other way round. You could also be is for businesses and individuals who have needs to transact privately, and this will drive option, and it doesn't in my opinion. It doesn't matter much. Whether there's a depreciating pressure on green Asam cells. If you Mabel to transact. With them and then easily cash in routes to another currency like a bitcoin, for example. So I guess we'll see because obviously bitcoin has the most traction out of any coin. And so maybe said that could simply be the main selling point is in order to use for transaction. Is transactions is that it's like, bitcoin, but private? Yes. Roy just just pointing out there. You can say it's like bitcoin private, but we do have some, you know, technologies coming out like, for instance, geology atomic swamps with Bitcoin's that which we have. So the there is also used face of using at member when are using sorry the gridlock chain as kinda away to to further privatise bitcoin transactions in some of the transaction bitcoin than doesn't Tomek swap with grin on his back. And then there's a greater level of of privacy. There. Yeah. So let's actually talk more about the privacy feature a features of grin. What are the different ways at the protocol enables privacy? Okay. Sure. There's a few. There's a few different things first off amounts on the blockchain or completely dated transaction structure by the time. I guess blockchain is office gated or compressed, basically when I look at you, can you can try this. Now, if you look at at grant blockchain explore on you look at the data that send the in each flock. There's basically there's nothing there densify it basically site random data, and that's down to kind of the the mathematical trickery that happens with nimble. So instead of you know, having one transaction in one signature per output. You kind of have everything kind of put together amalgamated into kind of one one very compact block so to speak. When you talk also a little bit about like coin. Join confidential transactions Danta lion protocol, some of the other features. You're sure. Solving the giant line. Pro dandy lion protocol itself. I mean, stunts not specific particular that something that's kind of on top at stunts. What that does this meant to so high transaction graphs. So if I say, you know, three letter agency, and I have able to monitor, you know, a good portion of the network I can see where transactions went to our faith transaction with suddenly broadcasts wallets peers. I should have I could potentially get a good idea of what machine that transaction came from. So Dan dayline attempts to to these gate that the bit. So instead of eating when a receives transaction it doesn't broadcast to all its peers, but it will send it off to another node which will send it off to another note at random, and that's the standard phase, which was lights Danny line. So one not another another note in that random in some point one of the notable say right in the the fluff face where all day that protected are notable broadcast trans. Action to all its known peers somebody doing that you kind of Yvonne skated the path if you get a transaction your noted you gotta transaction is not necessarily obvious where it came from. And that's what did I is is supposed to do. Other features coyness kind of built into it. There's not like, you know, the coin in decline, this is different. But we kinda use use the term a little bit just kind of more for for cloudy explanation. What happens is is. Because in a member will transaction it's not about signing individual outputs. It's kind of putting all of the outputs in a single transaction together and making sure they some two zero right? So when you if you can do that, you have a notion something else it's called country, which we talked about for we kind of touched on a day earlier. So if all your inputs outputs in transaction equals zero will surely you can start cutting out some of these outputs kind of either side of the equation. So I could potentially do do a transaction that involves, you know, certain inputs, and then without any confirmation to another one another one, and I can cut out, you know, the transactions that happened in the middle on that stunts the notion of cut through and again dots that goes towards adding some some privacy. And that's like if. If I send you a payment, and let's see it's for ten grin, and then part of the inputs that were used Wesley. So how would this work? So okay. So let's say that I sent you ten grin, and then you turn around, and you sent ten grin to Daniel than essentially, what will happen is the cut through will make it look like I just sent ten to Daniel directly is that right? Cut out the middle ones as as you say, Anna gambling, Salo placate. This does not appear the chain that identifies you ties, you're particular address. So it just gives you an extra layer of observation yon, we should say their own addresses, even and the only thing that are on the chain. Are are these on Putin put some link abilities is possible to do their, you know, because you know, one one outvoting mantras action exam being used as an input of inefficient transaction, but it makes it much harder to build up about transaction graph. Especially like monitoring the network if you're if you're analysis for but it's not perfect. We have still a long long way to go and where were constantly looking to make improvements in don't feel like we're finished in terms of office skating data in making the chain more private good lane catnaps type thing. Yeah. And I think, you know, already we're like we're well on our way given what we're doing already has described. And the fact that it's enabled by default for everybody on on the chain. Saw a big a big part of privacy is hiding in crowds and amongst your peers. And because this isn't able by the fault on the core protocol, anybody using a grin is essentially making it harder for for for privacy to be leaked. Tag more about this concept of having no addresses in grin in a moment. But first a quick word from our fabulous sponsors face. It regulations can stall or kill a fast moving crypto business new f af T and e you cryptocurrency AM L laws are coming soon. You could be hit with stiff fines or blacklisted, no matter where your servers are in the world prepare now deploy the same powerful staffer trace tools used by regulators. Protect your assets, streamline your compliance programs and keep your exchange or crypto business out of the regulators crosshairs. Learn how effective anti money laundering tools help keep your crypto business safe entrusted. Learn more at cypher trace dot com slash unchained, cypher traces securing the crypto economy back to my conversation about grin with Daniel. And michael. So as you mentioned there are no addresses in grin that says yet another reason so fascinated by this technology, so how do people send each other money? Then how do I send? Rin to somebody. If I don't have an address or addresses that I call my own. Okay. So you're right. There are no addresses in grin. What all you have basically is is a wallet. Which is essentially a client here assistant for generating private. He's that give you permission to spend out. What's that are on the chain? So norger to build a transaction. There's a there's an interactive element in the protocol as than I have to send some data over to the person. I'm transacting with who has to do something to it. And then send it back amend hosted to the chain. So it's cryptographic standpoint it's known as an interactive protocol as two parties after transact with or interacting to each other rather in order to create the transaction in the the key part of that that means that this has to happen through some communications channel. But it could be any communications channel not the December in the receiver chooses to use. It could be a private. To be in a written message. It could be any form of communication that allows the center to interact with the receiver once and then the receiver to send information back to the sender in. That's not not can be finalized broadcast of shame. Yeah. This was another thing that I thought was so interesting like there's something about this architecture reminding a little bit of Email in the sense that the protocol makes the transaction possible. But then there are many ways you could execute it. So like with Email, you know, you could use your own Email server or you could use g mail and so for grin. What are the different ways in which people can execute Grinch prince actions? Okay. Well, just just a little bit of technical explanation on the the absolute simplest way to send someone a transaction in the core. Just kind of on the mimbo protocol itself is you send them a transaction or partial transaction, and this would contain some private keys that are needed in order to spend the output another important person puts that together there's that creates transactions. So that's the simplest way to do it. But dunce, obviously involves the Senate revealing private keys which causes also whether they don't do that. So in vain granite south. We don't we have something on top of that for the transactions at it. You snore signatures, and it requires one back and forth. So from the this the sender to the receiver and back in order to, you know, for either party developers Schnorr signature, so we can can put together the final signature without any one party having reveal the keys to anybody else. So the short so. From practical standpoint, what comes out of that is the shortest way to former transactions from sender to receiver center and already within the core of that we have there's a few as during that. So obviously, the kind of maybe intuitive way doing this would be by HTTP. So somebody runs a listener on their wallet and listening for for senders to send money to the Wallace directly. So that's an ACT that center. The Senate senate's requests on the responsible contain the rest of the vote agreed the signature at the center concrete the final transaction post led to the chain. We also have a method doing that by Email. So you can send a file to somebody. So you in your wallet, you generate your send file you send that to the recipient end know at their leisure. They receive it imported so to speak into the wallet. Send the result back to the center to finalize it and put it onto the chain. And again, you know, the actual number of ways, you can do this from a technology standpoint are infinite we have dozen experimental key base adopting. Okay base users can send send to other key base users on the system. So, yeah, we'll probably talking more later with what we're doing to facilitate these kinds of transactions because our approaches like I said great is trying to be prescriptive. So instead of saying, you know, provide it one way of doing these these the transaction we provide the tools to enable the community to come up with the best or most appropriate ways to perform this transaction isn't related to with paper as well. You told you could write everything down on a piece of paper and send it to somebody. They can type it all back in. But yeah, absolutely can be somewhat. The dark alley of water paper and say, you know, here's your grits. And and my, you know, part of part of the team that I'm involved with with also about the system called grim box which allows you to it. It's essentially inbox for for your grins is funny that you that you use the Email analogy before Laura so everybody gets an address, but the address is not is not stored on chain or anything derived from your privacy, and then you can exchange messages through the through a relay of servers that are federated just like E mail in all these messages are into end encrypted. So that only the sender and the receiver can actually be privy to the information of the slights it, but but it's the sensually an example of how we envisage layer to solutions to deliver different solutions of the problem of changing message information building these transactions rather than on. The core protocol layer saying this is the one way the two best do this. Instead, of course that many different approaches are experimented with Canada. What one that works? Best is going to be the love usage. And then one other thing that I was just thinking about was with dick lane. A lot of people have said that you could do kind of like fundraising for disaster recovery and stuff like that. You know, people could publicize their bitcoin address than people can just push that out. But is that like Earlier, Michael when you were talking about how you could use H E P? That's always just listening is that a way that that kind of crowd funding could happen as well using grin them. As a matter of fact, we do have except for that going for our for our own fundraising efforts believe there's a there's a nation. She dress can enable couldn't consent to their wallets. And then for this round trip communication that needs to Kurt to make a transaction happen, obviously, we know that ransomware has been a huge trend with bitcoin where they tie check, your computer, whatever and demand, you pay them in bitcoin does the setup of grin make that any either easier or harder or I'm not sure how that would affect that trend. That's the question somebody something I've I've thought about now the bumming the people have used bitcoin is rent somewhere. You know, are not as clever people in the world because using bitcoin these massive trail behind us to where you are. I'd say the minute someone tries to actually spend up be people all over the. So, yeah, I'm already sure I'm innocence. Phase I say, here's places he pianists are. I mean, they could be could be doing this to Torahs Ralph. So yeah, you could make a bitcoin difficult to track them as well sub. Nats interest is not pretty something of thought about tinge. Okay. I guess if they take control of your computer. And then yet initiate the transaction and you wanna get the computer back you would need to complete it. But then maybe it's actually worse because then since it's private the ransom where people will will like grin better than bitcoin. Actually. Yeah. I also didn't know the answer to that. When I asked him but just thinking three right now. There are many use cases for a private transactions that are maybe negative. But there was also many positive use cases for private transactions in the need for private transactions in general. And it seems like example that you raised if we've stylish that ransomware is possible today, it's widely used any works while with bitcoin. I don't think he makes a big difference to the to the spread around somewhere with grin. Maybe they which through it, maybe not. But this seems like there'd been able to to do their carry out their business regardless today, quite well. Yeah. I know it's early in the life of grin. But diva have any sense yet of whether criminals are interested in this form of money because for people who've listened to my previous episodes with fluffy, pony of minero and Zico Z cash. I did ask them a little bit about how they felt about the fact that they're cryptocurrencies did make crimes easier on. No. I mean. It's kind of like with the the defendant that criminals use cash as well. And I'm not sure what the fed thinks about that. I'm sure that is much more focused on kind of the wider economy than specific individual use cases for for for how cash is being used. I I like to think of grin as quite agnostic in that sense. And the protocol itself is not opinionated about use cases. I it shouldn't be just like cash doesn't really care how it's being used is just functional, and then the might be some individuals organizations that are using cashing away that breaks the law, and I definitely think governments in regular should care about that. But it's not up to to the transaction method self to that. Let's also. Now, a kind of apply this same thinking to the just the general uses for the technology. So we've been talking about how this protocol or grin. Requires this round trip communication to make a transaction happen and in the bitcoin worlds, or in the crypto world in general, a lot of people have talked about how legacy systems are pull technology, meaning you have to hand over your information. And then the store or whatever that once the payment from you has to contact your Bank request that that money and that pull technology is sort of prone to fraud. And then people have been talking about how bitcoin is a push technology where you control the money, and like cash, you decide when the money gets sent out from your address. And of course, then puts the burden on users to not lose their private keys. So in this case where mimbo is like different. How would you? How do you think it will affect behaviors around money, and what kinds of financial problems? Do you think could happen or you know, sort of like the push pull thing or do you think that it's sort of resolves all kinds of shoes with that actually improves on the modal with bitcoin from a practical perspective of accepting payments from users again kinda thinking context from like a from like a business one of the problems or challenges should say with accepting bitcoin is that users are prone to do a lot of mistakes by having this interactive protocol where it basically in order for you to receive green transaction you have to actively get involved in order to process, which means that it's not possible for somebody to just send money to to address of yours in the blind. Like, I should address or something you actually have to actively respond in sending formation back to the sender. Which means that it's easy to reject transactions which allows transaction flows to be more robust in a way. So you don't have this issue of some user sending address to address it shouldn't be doing. And now you have to figure out what happened in return the funds back to them or if some unauthorized person sending your cash, which might sound a bit strange. But in a lot of businesses actually are very careful about making sure that they only receive payments that they're supposed to do to receive otherwise their bookkeeping doesn't add up with grin. It becomes easier to do. So because you can basically run checks invalidates. Indeed. You're you're supposed to receive this payments and otherwise rejected any let's talk a little bit more about some of the other features of grin Sagren does not have something called scripting, which at the coin has. So what are some examples of things? You can do with scripts in bitcoin but not in grin. But then I, you know, Michael, I think also did mention now you guys still have features like atomic swaps, and I think there are a few other. So what are some of the other features that you were still able to retain anyway. Atomics is one example gum. There's something that's been kicking around in minimal circles with the notion of scrimp descript, and what that means is it means kind of cryptographic tricks that you can do to enable kinda scrimp light functionality without actually having to go through, you know, without having to include a script. So one example of that I made and again, this is all kind of radical stuff that we kind of have list for research a lot of stuff like lightning. We take them to enable that at some point after some research using scrimp a script tricks does the atomic swaps mentioned there is know time law to relative time transactions vol switch, you know, at or kind of user security, so like annoying rain like meaning if I wanted to transaction effort, I large out or something then there's a delay Bilton. So that people. Can't rob me. Absolutely. Yep. If someone tries to you know, there's a case where nobody gets the money. So there's litters there's less incentive for people to even try in the first place, and so what are scripless scripts? So I won't let's can you describe what scripting is. And then what's crippling Crips are? I think in terms of saying what script scripts are is. It's not as if there's a, you know. You know, it's a scripted script is a particular anything. It's more of a warm trick than stone to enable somebody could do as script. So for instance, that, you know, a kind of mathematical level, it would be some trickery about adding one to something using the number one kind of creative way. So I couldn't to, you know, a set of things and say these are script the script since it's very much about, you know, tricks to enable to enable scripting behavior scripting is a way of making bitcoin programmable yards. It's basically, a smart some very, basic smart contracts, functional. Yeah. Than in bitcoin. Like, I don't think it's us all extensively of the kind of the standard exchan- script stuff on you'd see a theory. You know, the biggest case per theory is to have, you know, smart contract enablement or the abilities developed, Mark contracts. Unfortunately that doesn't fit in with mental in the protocol. Because it's such a kind of. Compact form of blockchain there's no room for it anywhere. And so in the Cotonou could the notion concept of his scripts is triggered to Andhra polls who was doing the when the research early on and just basically allows you to implement some simple smart contract functionality that is of chain in a way in you. Don't need to base it. It's you don't only check signatures president, correct? And it's thrived for using snort signatures in what are snore signatures? A nor signature is is basically it's a multi multi user signature. So I can I can sign something. I can create a second chair for something and someone else can create a signature for the same thing and waking combine the two signatures. Yeah. The basically out them together to get kind of one signature that's taken from. Although a partial signatures involved. So it's it's it's how we do the basic transaction in in grid. The moment is instead of everyone reviewing private keys. I just sign apart signature with private keys another person signs part of their partial signature with the ride mckee's at put that altogether on you, can you can add the public of the companies will be able to verify the signature somebody the added private keys was the the added public keys, and it all works. If it was just one person the signature, and if you do script scripts you're basically or adopter signatures as they call it. You're basically away hacking this by putting some, you know, these signatures private information could be could be random, but you can also make you know, putting some delivered information not than can be used in your off chain smart contracting quotes, let's talk about your launch. What were some of the different features of your launch in? Why did you choose those features? So I think the notion of like a fair launch in the sense that it wasn't any pre mine or or death tax or any design around the incident incentivizing or rewarding development team. I think that was taking quite early in the project. I think a lot of it has to do with just keeping things simple straightforward and also making things fair and transparent. And it wasn't. It's just you know, way, I think, you know, the more I've been involved in the project more, I think about it. It's it's what really makes sense if if you're looking at the big picture on thinking about what the end goal is. If angle is to, you know, get funded and how small development team working on a project, you probably would do it in a different way. But if you're trying to build the almost something that could be a public good, and you want to see like big picture long game thinking and one at naval other healthy and finding eco-system as surrounding your project you need to allow equal access to getting involved in make it as easy as possible. And because there's no incentives for me to kinda I'm not getting rewarded if more people are joining the project alone as relatively I guess a relatively early user, but the somebody chooses to get involved in England today, they have the same. Conditions as I do it makes it very easy to contribute because you're not feeling when you contributing that somebody else's profiting as a result of that. And it also allows us as a group, and as a community to be very open and honest about about the project for not necessarily selling anything because we have nothing to sell. We have no upside from it either. And I think that that is great in the sense that it keeps us very honest, and it allows also community to build around the project. Well, so then how do you feel about the fact that in the end the early miners were these like special purpose investment vehicles devoted to mining grin in they were funded by I guess, people were saying one hundred million dollars in VC money shorter. I mean that may be the case I I haven't seen one hundred dollars attributed to the what I've been speaking to some groups and individuals, it seems like a lot of. Investment vehicles didn't participant in mining immediately. I don't know if they're doing it. Now, there's a lot of mining happening in China. But generally speaking equal opportunity doesn't equal that doesn't mean equal outcome. If there were we welcome ended buddy to to use grim to mind grim into participate in the project. Now, if it were a groups that felt that the project was really exciting, and they really wanted to mind grin, and they wanted to devote a lot of resources into doing that the free to do that. And I guess that's just good in general where nothing project again, we don't really think about these things too much. I don't really see it as necessary. And how did nations of fairness play a role in your decision? Have those two different consensus toward them with one of them becoming more dominant over time. Right. So so just from background. I. Before going to answer that Greenwich performed mind as we said, and there are two proofs of work. They're all from the same family of four works. Call the critical cycle family was created by John Trump while also part of the court court team grin end the we have we launched with two different algorithms to creation of of the cycle family. The first one is specifically tuned for a sick manufacturing and make it making it as easy as possible to develop a sport as specialized chips that could be at built specifically to mind grin. Exactly there are specifically to do anything. But then you can have ones that are grin. Exotic saw GP is a type of sick. But it's very generalized type of six, but you can also make specialized sick that only. One thing really really well efficiently, for example, mining this could to a secure algorithm. So that's one of the prefer works. The second prefer work is a sick resistance. Meaning that it's designed to be a more GPO friendly incentivize depew mining rather than something to develop a six four. And when we launched the reward for the Essex tuned work was ten percent and their ward Ford is resistant before work was ninety percents. Meaning that ninety percents on average of all rewards would go to the miners who are minding the GPO friendly from work and this over time at the balance here between ten percents ninety percents changes linearly up until the second once grin has a two year anniversary. It was switched to being completely hundred percent. On the ace attuned proof of work. So what we're saying is that we strapped network giving a heavier away towards the GPO friendly algorithm. And then over time that will only be rewards after two years for the ACC tuned algorithm in the logic for that is essentially that there was when when was in development, we noticed that. There was have a lot of tension being put to put to the project, and there were already we had rumors of a six being manufactured in salon. And we were worried about the the centralization of the network in a way to bootstrap the network was basically to devise this dual work system, which is only temporary in a way to increase the central. Asian. Also, not incentivize one or two big Eysenck manufacturers with a lot of resources to jump. The queue have basic minor ready from day one take control of all. The hash Palmer on the network. But instead to have a gradual increase of this a friendly proof of work, and as a result, build healthy, hopefully, hopefully, healthy a sick Akwa system where you have many different factors competing and offering parts to the market. And let's go back to of the comments made earlier about how grin does not have a Dev tax. Meaning that part of the block reward does not go to the developers. And so for instance, especially like, I know you Michael who go by the the name yeast plume you were trying to raise funds for at pay for your time on developing grin from the community. And I saw that at first at least the campaign was not going very, well, you weren't even trying to raise like a huge. Of money. And I think it was like was it fifty five pounds per year. Sorry fifty thousand pounds a year. Variant a the rates actually the where we're using house about nine thousand euro so testing around ten thousand USD would be our standard, but with lovey standardized on month of developers time. Yeah. Yeah. And. Kids includes taxes we have to pay zone. It's like a the salary payment. Basically go. Oh, yeah. And at first I think you only raised like roughly a fifth or something and then ignored sorry. Keep going. No, you're you're right about that. That was that was also the fourth time the fourth campaign as well. So I mean, I I've been working fulltime grant since about two February of last year, and since then I've done four hundred campaigns all of which were successful some of them in the first film in the height of the the bitcoin bumble. So everyone was feeling about tonight. And I may not campaign funded in about in today's the next one bit longer than the longer the last one which was done just around launches it stalled a little bit. But also, the there are a lot of companies out there who to support great over the long term as in, you know, put a mining pool might decide to give a donation of the proceeds into the grim general development. I think a lot of that. Was being set up as well at the same time. So tonight communities been absolutely great, very, supportive and has have allowed me to be able to to work on this phone time. But actually because that one at fundraising attempt, at least did not go very, well, I know that it notice wrote a post expressing his or their disappointment with the lack of funding for for your work, and they also agreed and the creek community. But I just wonder, you know, another looked at another way could also be seen as a problem of incentives. And I like do you feel like if he were to do it again, would you try to raise funds at different way that kind of harnesses incentives more care? I don't think trying to I don't think raising monies inherently evil or structuring yourself in such a way that that you know, injecting capital into your project. Terry wanna do is not necessarily a bad thing. As a matter of factors may conceal out. It's challenging to do things the way we were doing. But I mean, this wouldn't necessarily be true for all projects that Dino ever work on ever, but in this case, drain. I mean, it's the first implementation mimbo, and we thank if you know, if the product is run in such a way that it's it's obviously to benefit a small group of people, even if it's just you know for a. You know, supposedly, Justin. Hey developers. Nothing else. It's still kind of diminishes from the notion of grim, but mommy to everybody. If there's a depth tax N, developers are only paid out of the debt tax defense incentive for other developers to come along enjoying know make contributions as you tune open-source project because you know, they're all getting paid out of it. I'm not why would I do this? So it's it's challenging is not the only answer. But it is. I mean, it's the one that grin. It's kind of the Greenwich Osen and we intend to stick to yon. I mean, I've been kinda call the fanatical incredibly naive when when I say, but the way of thinking about it. I don't really see another way of doing it. That's make sense, essentially, I think this is hard. We're we're not we're very frugal which also think is a good thing and raising money in a different way. While you solve the funding problem, perhaps you also open up the door for a bunch of other problems. As Michael was saying other developers might be less incentive is to join if they're not getting paid Howdy allocates funds. How how do you handle all this administration of it's one thing we have some administration now for the modest funds of receiving the nation, but he becomes a complete different game. If you having hundreds of thousands or millions even of dollars he's supposed to administer in do it in the right way hotting ensure that funds get allocated to the right place that they're used efficiently. And that all of this ultimately is actually benefiting your long term goal. It's it's not obvious. And I don't think actually it's been proven in the space that having more money yields to better results. I haven't actually seen a single example of after the stage yet, this is one of those things where when you look at it one way, you know, you can see kind of one side, which it another way you. See the other side. I definitely. Maybe because you know, we we've seen that socialism. Maybe hasn't worked out super well and a lot of places, and maybe it's because going up here in the US, you kind of see like, okay. Here's how capitalism works, and you sort of think. Okay. It works. Well, but at the same time, you can live in a capitalist society, and sort of kind of be into minimalism and be like, well, I don't want to buy a ton of things all the time because that's not a very satisfying way to live. So I just I look at it. And I kind of go back and forth. You know, I do. And there is something. I it's like, I don't wanna talk. I don't wanna mention who this person was. But it was talking with somebody about see cash and about the the developer rewards that that they have. And you know, that person kind of had of you that was like negative on the creators. Earning money from it. And I was a little bit confused at first I just thought well, they created they should be rewarded. But I know what you're talking about. If you're trying to build something that's for the community. It's just that. Like, I said when I see also that then you struggle a little bit to raise funds for the development. It just makes me wonder well, could it have been done better? But anyway, as for your points, I actually wanted X expound on that a little bit more you decided not to do a foundation for the governance of grin. Why not and how do you guys plan a govern grin? Royden? So so one of their league Confucius, I did was to have a look at foundations into research around at seen what the use cases full fundation. Our holiday applied to grit in the context, and whether we we should have on as it was going forwards. I couldn't really find any compelling arguments to why would need a foundation, especially if you're trying to be the centralized there. I think the main point was to protect the trademark to have a an entity that registers trademark protection. We didn't see any point four study. And otherwise, I don't really see that they use as an official undoing these quotes again, but like his official from nation. It becomes the centralizing entity which now needs administration on organization in the Bronx for it. And then this centralized foundation is going to be making decisions in even if you on these. Support fund projects. You're you're effectively you're doing union taking these decisions, and it creates structure where I'm not sure it actually adds any benefit in the research. However, we did conclude that in foundations great in the sense that if other people wanted to put together information and say, you have a passionate individual on the really wants to further win the government and say, hey, I'm gonna put together a grandpa. They should now the structure on I'm gonna give it a grant handouts money to development projects center, I'm targeting win. That's great. We encourage encourage many foundations to be founded on the principles. However, they won't be official foundation and rather instead on how Hollick grin wins governance has volt has instead been from from having just ignored as the main founder individuals group entity bunch of robots. Really knows who notices or on buds. Now. Also, having a technocratic council that essentially was created for the main that the main purpose was to manage the motivation keys, winner funds. The nations are being kept to censor them. Only start accepting donations funds. You create a layer of hierarchy. I think it's way Neville. You. Can't do it in a different way side few you start like going into, you know, governance research like distributed autonomous organization, salon which I think is very much when proven very difficult where we wanna stay focused on really working on grin and not trying to complicate things. So so instead, there's this subset of individuals nine nine people. Michael, I apply that are part of initially was part of managing. The case. But the general way of how governance decisions are being made today is a very transparent fat fashion where we have biweekly meetings. So every other week there's a development rather than meeting and the other week, there's a governance focused meeting and anybody's free to add points to their gender, and these will be discussing the meeting, which is are happening marketer. Chats. Everybody's free tool to to join in and points are discussed them that end decisions are being made out in the open, transparent fashion and that philosophy. I think in general is to just keep things minimal minimum transparent and open as far as we can for as long as we can. And if there's no reason to change it. We wouldn't want to do that. Array. So let's close out with one last question since launch which was not that long ago. What are some of the things you guys have been working on? And what can we expect from grin going forward? Sure. A little bit earlier. But we're trying to do is is support the community in building tools on top of grin. So from from my perspective anyhow during a lot of work on the the Wallops suffer itself. But rather than trying to create, you know, the nicest author as I'm spending all my time focused on putting out or a Senate tools for other developers pickup and builds their their fancy gooey wallets on top of so in one sentence very much support the community, you know, let them come up with with sedition to some of the problems. They talked about that experimental Sima happens from there on top of that I may have some of the additions to the core protocol, the we've talked about, and I kinda described as very kind of carefully considered introduction of new technologies into grim because while we have a long list things that we think we know how to do that we can't guarantee, you know, when we're going to kind of have all the other research worked out in order. Today, so naval. So when we kind of Sony measurably adding features to to the core grin protocol as they go one of the things I'm very much excited about his recent. Work by notice to see the explore the potential of item P integration onto Grandin. Support more anonymous. Of. Yeah. Yeah. I think you guys have a very very very interesting projects. So we will have to check back in to see what happens. I will think you both so much for joining us today where can people learn more about you and grin? If you wanna learn more about Gwen good start this on a website grim. Dash tech dot org. There's also a grin newsletter every week that curates, and if you wanna which to me, you can always sell via key base or Twitter at landmark in my county. Have a Twitter handle have earlier. Maybe at boom is by Twitter handle again, if somebody wants to find mates very easy to do. So the through to the gator channel or or the forum anything anything related, I should be should be defined me. There. Anyhow Yano should also have that, you know, chip questions wanna find out more about grin joined the channel that community is very welcoming receptive for anyone. Getting. Great. Well, thanks so much for coming on chained. Thank you think. Similar joining us today. Learn more about granite Daniel. And Michael check out the shadows. Inside your podcast player. If you are not yet. Sign up for my Email newsletter code unchained podcast dot com right now to get my thoughts on the top crypto stories of the week. Plus, a preview of exclusive podcast content and be sure to check us out on YouTube. I'm changes produced. I me Mauritian with help railing. Polly proxy recording Jenny jobs. Senate Daniel Ness and Richard struggling, thanks for listening.