Do You Have Pink Around the Collar? Kelly Paxton Discusses How Pink Collar Criminals are becoming the New Threat to Your Business.
Welcome to ruin a bad guys day radio podcast with fraud experts skip buyers this is your guide to fighting fraud and chargebacks learn the best fraud prevention solutions and strategies how to enhance your fraud prevention team and how to prosecute criminals now. Here's your host skip buyers coming to you from Atlanta Georgia. This is the broadcast it gives you the knowledge in tools to help you ruin a bad guys day before they ruin yours. Hey thanks so much for tuning in to real bad guys day radio PODCASTS. I thank you so much payoffs. Let's get Myers. I'm the host of ruin the bad guys day radio and I want to start off by thanking everyone who continues to support the show and especially those loyal listeners keep sending in all that great good feedback and all those terrific emails. Thank you very much everyone we have a great show lined up this week including a very very special guest in recognized workplace dishonesty tamp date polar crime expert galaxy that again a pink collar crime expert so me a great show votes and Mrs Kelly Paxton who will discuss her research into criminal behavior her investigations into trusted employees that committed fraud against their employers but I as always like to start the show with some good news and bad news and updates involving all being some very stupid criminals. Hey this just in from the HUFFINGTON post suspects wowed release of gas. You heard that loud suspects loud release a gas it helps beliefs sniff out his hiding place well the Liberty Police Department and Missouri said no one was hurt by the blast a man trying to loot police in Missouri ended up being betrayed by his own backside Liberty Police Department officers over the weekend where searching vainly for a man wanted on warrant charging possession of a controlled substance according according to Kansas City Star newspaper however the suspect may have gotten away if it hadn't been betrayed by his own backside will explain further it seems that the man let out a large yet your guess a large flagellants and sound fell far in the south right the wrong time allowed the officers to sniff out where he was hiding according according to local police fortunately for the bad guy the cops have not released his identity at this time so the nearby Clay County Sheriff's Office got wind of the arrests and decided to turn and it into a cautionary tale on twitter presumably to discourage others from engaging in criminal behavior or in this case little humor from the police department at least avoiding beans and other foods or high fiber before committing any illegal activity make this stuff up hey so this is what the sheriff's department said on in posted on twitter. Hey If you have a felony warrant for your arrest and the cops are looking for you in you. Pass gas so loud that gives up. You're hiding spot while you're probably having a crappy day. Ah The liberty place apartment apparently appreciated the tweet nearby and just for the publicity wanted to add some more wisecracks about the loud noise and yes they did let that twitter tweet rip and one response went like this so hey thanks to the local sheriff's Department for airing out a one person's dirty laundry in fanning the flames James the Liberty Police Department was surprised to see this incident oil slip out with stinks for the arrest e in fortunately no one was injured Darren this arrest so guys. You can't make this stuff up another stupid criminal. You probably need to watch his diet so hey got another great story want to talk about and this is a great lead in a little bit more serious. You're stuck on a serious note but this story rate lead into our guest forthcoming here in it's a story comes out of Martha's Vineyard and pay really close attention this because the stories titled Woman An accused of embezzling three million dollars and so some of these funds apparently were allegedly used to purchase a mark the Vineyard House in Massachusetts so here goes the story a woman who allegedly embezzled three Million Dollars From Waltham base employer use some of that money to buy a home in Vineyard Haven Massachusetts near Martha's vineyard. The suspect aspect of in your haven was arrested recently in charge of one count of bank fraud in the U._S.. District Court in Boston according to the affidavit the suspect was an executive assistant to the Chief Financial Officer of Waltham based Technology Company. The company was not named in the court records but looks like the duties of this suspect included retrieving incoming mail containing customer checks made payable to her employer all you in the provincial visits probably for the store before this the seems to be repeated problem with people in positions of trust so this suspect will also record the checks into the payment system of the company in depositing checks into her employers. Here's bank account a press release said by the U._S.. District Attorney so between February two thousand twelve in July two thousand seventeen the suspect allegedly stole funds from your employer in used the funds to buy a car as well as a really nice house in Vineyard Haven Massachusetts in two thousand fifteen she allegedly created a sham company with a similar name of her employer but added an s to the end of the day the affidavit states so the suspect took the checks made them out to to her Sham Company and deposit them in tuna campus. She made up with a local credit union sound familiar. Hey according to the affidavit. The company discovered discrepancies discrepancies during a two thousand seventeen audit that uncovered that a number of the checks despite appearance paid in there billie system could not be reconciled within the company's bank accounts so in total the suspect embezzled approximately get this embezzled approximately three million seventy six thousand dollars from her former employer this suspect in this particular case up there. Martha's vineyard could face up to thirty years in prison and a fine up to one million dollars according to the U._S. Attorney's office hey well. I guess sometimes you know. Crime doesn't pay after after all does it in this particular case sounds like it was so easy or at least the suspect thought it was so easy to commit fraud awed against their employers so hey guys hey. There's some great news and information hope you got a little chuckle out of that. Make sure you watch your fiber in what you eat especially if you're GONNA go out and commit a crime so just this kidding anyway. I thought I heard somebody laughing in the background so anyway hey today guys as promise running back guys day radio BA- featuring some of the top fraud fighters in the industry and industry experts in two thousand nineteen in today. I especially excited to introduce to you. Kelly Paxton Kelly Paxon's with pink collar crime dot Com Kelly's a nationally recognized expert and speaker on pink collar crime. Hey Kelly is one of the good guys she spent an entire career investigating hundreds of cases ranging from from money laundering to conflict of interest to embezzlement schemes so hey Kelly how you doing. I'm so glad you could join us today. I am doing great and I I love your <hes>. <hes> stupid criminal stories had not heard that fiber heavy story that was me you her chuckling in the back back make this stuff up that's right. I searched high and low for those stories. Are you are you doing. I'm doing great three and I'm actually the story the second story this three million dollars over five years just to give it a little bit of context. That's an extra six eight hundred thousand dollars tax free so you're talking a lot of extra money in five years but if I looked at had a chance let's look at it yet. It wasn't one check for three million dollars. It was you know over five years and I would guess in my experience the first your plumbing wasn't quite as much as the last year to probably start at a little bit smaller and it just increased over time so yeah it's a fascinating case and that's great had feedback and advice there Kelly but you know for new listeners here and especially our loyal listeners. I have to ask you know with pink collar crime. How'd you come up with your website named Pink Color Crime Crime Dot Com? That's that's awesome so peak. I did not make the term pink color crime criminologists a lot smarter than me came up with the term earn it was popularized in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine by Dr Kathleen Daly who's actually down in Australia now but emailed her because I was a little sheet saying hey I got <hes> collar crime. Dot Com was delightful had no issue. She actually doesn't do this type of work anymore. I mean she's still pulmonologist at her. Focus has changed in one thousand nine hundred ninety criminal nagazine she did a she wrote an article and it was based on a study and basically pink color crime is lower level. All Employees Think Accounts Receivable Accounts Payable Office Manager who steal petty amounts from the workplace so it's pink because that's kind of an again. This is my turn the pink color ghetto which actually the Wall Street Journal came up with that terms those physicians are primarily filled by women but one something for anyone who checks the out afterwards is I love hashtags and one of my hashtags is it's physician not gender. I am equal opportunity opportunity. If you're a man whose accounts receivable or a peak physicians in new steal your color criminal so it's position not gender. It's just you know over. Ninety percent of those positions are held by women right. We got caught in that trap especially watching the news or television and movies. I mean Takes Care of everything out the day doctors are medical professionals referred to that Office Manager Executive Assistant is the day that McHugh was picking up the mail. She was doing the computer entry she was going to the bank. You can't have one person do all of that. In this goes goes to the whole people think it can't happen to me because my daughter or my sister or my wife does my blocks no fifty percent of all marriages end in divorce so if you're going to count your books on your spouse going in with that statistic and I can show you stories of the children wives you know so he Kelly Kelly we're going to get deep into this folks and everyone thank you for tuning in today and Kelly is such a wealth of knowledge but I think it it would be a disservice if we didn't talk about the the background and the breadth of her entire experience in this business so Kelly. Tell our listeners a little bit about your background how you got in the business. Yeah I know you're a private investigator your see but I think the listeners really like to know about the level experience and knowledge that you have in this business sure so I started off in traditional finding it's <hes> I started my career. At the Chicago Board of Trade. I became a stockbroker and moved back to Portland and we had a client to this was back before know your customer customer so nothing you know He. He just didn't know where his money came from. We have ideas when day a special agent from U._S.. Customs called in answer the <unk> own and she asked if he knew Alan Taylor was this is all public record and I kinda giggled you know as in my mid to late twenties and so he had you'd stolen money and he was arrested for wire fraud and I have no problem picking up the phone sending out an email or text when I'm curious and so about a year and a half later I get your phone number and I called her up and I said Hey I'm GonNa do what you do so I became a special agent. I've never touched a gun in my life until I was actually till I was thirty years old or maybe it was twenty nine. I became a special agent in a specialized lifetime money laundering white collar crime. I did the undercover books for our district and arrested your typical and I'm going to air quote bad guys. You know guys you were scared about you. Cross the street for and then life happened. My husband got a job in the middle of the country. I had to leave custos and I kind of hung around on the periphery of law enforcement. I did security clearances for the office of Personnel Management. I came back to Portland with my family and I started working at the local sheriff's Office. I I got my certified product. Damanour designation ninety Kim there fraud analysts but I realized we were doing lower level embezzling cases ninety they were you know six seven figure embezzlement cases and when they I'm like all my suspects with the exception of one were female and so I googled female investigators came across the term peak color crime and then about a year and a half after that I went out on my own and I got the domain name and I've been speaking in training on ever since awesome well those are some great steps to get to where you are today to fight fraud and the criminals but hey what are some of your superpowers though I mean you're so talented inexperience. What we're the super powers go back to to fight the bad guys you know I love to make connections so a connection might be in the salary doesn't match the car? The salary doesn't match the house or I say Portland's a small town in there's only two degrees of separation instead of Kevin Bacon sets so making those connections in kind of drawing lines between things that just don't make sense and you know one thing is you can when I can subpoena powering could get bank records. It would be like me at Christmas. My boss would come into the office and I'd be sitting on the floor and then had boxes of keeper deeper and I loved it because if I look at someone's checkbook I can pretty much tell you what their priorities are what they liked to do. It's like a window into into the same. Give me a checkbook and I can. I can tell a lot about a person. This business needs people like you. There's so many people in our business that we're probably you know maybe sometimes thrown into into the position or they took over for somebody that left but knows hard for them to connect the dots and it takes a special personality someone who can really find that needle in the haystack especially when you're looking for fraudsters. You're trying to keep their scheme hidden. Yeah you know my dad always said I was snoopy. I kind of liked to say I'm curious when when things it just don't make sense it's like I had a dentist who got reduction. He's like well. Maybe I should have known what she had a newer model B._M._W.. Than me I know you're kidding anyway but you're not that yeah you eight hundred dollars an hour and she you know fifty thousand dollar car in yours is only twenty five thousand like it. It doesn't make sense <hes> yeah take a high level of common sense common so hey anyway let you know there's a lot got a good listeners out there that have a lot of great questions with topics. We're talking about and why certain people in companies the the employees that really do the hard work every single day. Why are they go bad and you know a lot of a lot of those questions and in some of the questions of preparing for this podcast you know we know that a lot of fraudsters are sometimes those long determined trusted employees just like we talked about in this case just like this woman and then embezzlement case a why do good employees go bad and that's a big question? I get all the time especially when I'm working in an internal theft case now why do good employees go bad and what can we do to prevent it so the people who aren't aware of it. There's the front triangle which is opportunity pressure rationalization. The only thing you can control for is opportunity and you know what people's lives change so you can have someone who's been star employees forever her something changes in their life and they make a bad decision and I just was at the A._C._p.. Global Conference in John Herlin gave this great presentation Asian and one of the things are once it starts. It never stops so once they make once they crossed the line they don't stop so you can only control for the opportunity you could pay you know your office manager a million dollars a year and if they need a two million dollar paycheck they're gonNA steal if there is opportunity so you can't control for the pressures in the rationalizations. It's just it's in their head right. You know so many companies they really we focus on you know what their version of that opportunity through thrown out more and more controls and policies and and it creates a work environment as very stressful and instead of thinking and sometimes and I think we talked about this the other day said a billion a culture of compliance. How about a culture of commitment where you get the buy in of your employees employees who believed the greater vision in how they can add value and I think sometimes accompanies focus on you know that compliance piece a little too hard in that extra pressure that you're talking about can really drive someone nuts and do things that they shouldn't do? You know this is that so I'm the pink Collar Crime Radi but I also do a presentation called honestly dishonest us you know have good people make jokes of it goes to tone at the top and I can't stress. This enough is tone at the top. Don't give your employees <unk> any sort of rationalization that you've got you shouldn't give him the rationalization and you know sixty percent of all dentists. It's crazy get embezzle and I will get a dentist and he'll say a K._M.. Better than average and still talk a lot about it but then something will slip out like you know well I took my wife and kids to Key West for a continuing ed course and I came back. I gave the bill to my office manager the Twenty Twenty Thousand Dollars Bill and she said well. How do you want me to bring it out? I know you to the white begins the dentist just pay it now. The office manager doesn't Know Oh. He's GonNa do a journal entry at the end of the year to adjust for it but at that moment it might happen then it might not happen six weeks six months six years. They're going and you know what he didn't pay taxes on that next family vacation how come he gets to do that and I can't even take my kids to the shore for the weekend okay and so I say never give them that appearance that your not toeing the line like it's just not worth it because they're going to rationalize that behavior behavior like well he did it didn't pay taxes so what's two hundred dollars for me sure and you're right about that corporate culture you know what was the culture. You're trying to create his is it solely just <unk> based on trying to you know make profits and in revenue or you really taking care of the people that are actually helping you grow the business and that's where a lot of companies get in trouble yeah yeah. It's just I can't pound it in enough is a tone at the top and you know it's ethics is a muscle and we use it. We need to use it every single day. You can't just I mean and there's lots of you know again smarter people the academics who do this. You can't just once a year happier employees signed. I'm going behaved. You need to continue late. Remind that exactly and it was interesting a lot of times investigations that I've done and talking to some some the high level level executives at some companies. Sometimes they focus on the wrong. Things are focused on well the computer equipment you know the smartphones in the workplace. These are the To do it and you won't find the fraud until it's just huge and they probably did an audit because something was a balancing in they went and said let's take a look Gavitt and maybe it was because she was the executive assistance and they were too scared to go to the C._E._o.. Rally in the past maybe that had happened in there had been retaliation taliation so you need to empower your employees to if you see something say something and don't don't ever retaliate people that have the alert lines or whistle blower lines. If it's quiet that's not a good sign. People are too scared to call it and you know that from Your Business. It's a false sense of security. You know it's like Oh. We're not getting calls. Where a great meanwhile? You're trying to figure out how come I had six internal cases last month right and no one's Callin me but you're yet is that environment airman culture setup whether or not you're always feel that they there's trust in is really anonymous. I mean so is the communication of that line and how you presented that trust you built within your organization -ation absolutely crazy so hey if this great time great segue to discuss really what pink collar crime really is in. Can you explain Kelly to our listeners. What Pink Pink Collar crime is you? You've touched on it so far but really how's it different than white collar cry so white collar crime did term came out in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine by Edwin Sutherland and and it's a it's a crime committed by a person of high social status in their position so and there's been a lot of debate over the years is it based on the offender or the offense but when people seek of white collar crime the vision they get it's Bernie madoff or it's a you know a young Hot Wall Street trader and a hedge. That's white collar crime is just it's The Wall Street Journal sort of you know above the fold stories whereas the color crime crime is I call it. The relatable crime don't relate to Bernie madoff. No most people didn't invest with him. Regular people didn't and to be perfectly honest honest a lot of people don't even feel sorry for the people who lost money with Bernie which is totally wrong completely wrong but we do relate to the dental office to the soccer team into the water district the crimes that happened in our neighborhoods in their committed by people that we know like we see them at the store our kids to school with their kids so I call him relatable crime or the everywhere crime everywhere I go and people find out what I do. They're like let me tell you about my embezzlement. Exactly clammy white collar crime. I guess my version is it made for Hollywood or made for TV and that's what it is in the general public. That's what they see. The the most salacious you know frauds and Bernie Madoff so the world that make the news and make the headlines and make movies and the general public <hes> forgets about those bad guys are the people in in that bookkeeper's office or the people the Treasurer for the P._T._a.. Absolutely crazy so again we're back to you know people in positions of trust or violating these these positions and using a position to embezzle their company so are there typical white collar crime criminals out there reserves sorta like a <hes> a group of people that you would classify as someone you would really look for in you know in what are some of those traits if there are such a thing of of a true pink color criminal sure so there's I've got several traits one of them is. They're not the disgruntled employees generally. It's Kinda like you know your go to person and they're the Go-to a two person who never takes vacation so could make your employees take vacations and I was just listening to like marketplace money about Mike rotations and and those are like two or three days so millennials are taking micro patient will if someone's gone two or three days. No one's GONNA cover their responsibilities in there and the F._d._i._C. at the I._C.. Actually has a daily death started because if you're not at work you can't cover it up so employees that are taking vacations that the pink flag I call Him Ping fights instead of red plots but I had a dentist who got ripped off nicest young woman ever and we have the seed when her office manager was in the office in six and a half if you're she only took one and a half days vacation her husband had surgery for cancer <unk> today she got in a car accident. She came in with like the whiplash. You know you see on T._v.. Order he couldn't miss work because she had to answer the phone. She had to get the statements so yeah so employs. The don't take vacations in actually I gotta write a blog likeness. Mike rotations don't count because if you're only gone two or three days people are GonNa say oh. They're going to be back. We don't need to look at their stuff now. You need to look at the stuff I know you're right and and other people that are in the office. I mean they don't WanNa do someone else's work to so so it's it's a part of the whole culture of the problem <hes> as well as so that bad guy I pink collar criminal will take advantage of that culture that company knowing no one's on a really come over and do Kelly's job. Why Kellie Kellie does a lot of stuff is really difficult? I don't want any part of that that so they're hoping you get back so you do it so they. They don't WanNa touch your your side of the business right yeah yeah. There was actually this week. There's a prince to cut <hes> in a car accident and he you know the police came. We had over nine hundred thousand dollars in cash. It turns out he'd been investing for years so he he literally was in a car accident. They found a bag of money and at all unravel to find out his embezzlement so not being able to get into work is a big thing if you have an employee that has a garnishment aline their financial circumstances have changed in you know it I kind of like you know. Take off the blinders open up ears in start paying attention. I have a friend who had a manufacturing this. She's like we garnishments for child support or gentleman's all the time and I said what do those employees touch money she just now and I said okay. What about your office employees? Do those employees garnishments like now. I said well if your office manager gets a garnishment or judgment you need to pay attention and and then he gets on this story that you mentioned but there was a woman who is caught this week in literally when after they terminated hurts they went through her desk in underneath. You know the sort of cover that your computer computer sits on that. She had a bunch of checks underneath her desk that she was those. Were like checked. She was gonNA steal like make this so now. I'm like maybe I should like an office cleaning once a month I kinda joking up that your cases where like you know they've had the records in their debts so if you do find out at someone's terminating first of all is to an attorney. I never liked to stay hiring attorney bet you've got to hire an attorney. Check their desks shocking that a lot of people get sloppy and lazy and you'll find all sorts of stuff in their ask and that's a common trait on get into this next question was uncover some of that but in my experience clutter disorganization I mean a messy desk. This isn't your your closet. Genius people that this is somebody most likely trying to cover the tracks or they got some other serious problems but if you're a manager of an organization a leader and so forth unless like l._S._i.. And that's a sign in why wouldn't you want your organizational your workspace to be clean and tidy and Organiz so especially if you're in the bookkeeping or financial side of the business in my office well you got a little O._C._D.. And so and people in our business we are right little you know little. I want things in the right place. You can have disorganization if I'm going to be able to do my job right in the vessel that these are great warning signs so you know Kelly. We're talking about these traits in these characteristics so you know white white collar crime or in this case pink colored grime criminals in we're talking about the fraud triangles any of those traits or characteristics fit in that triangle our listeners may control roll or help prevent the fraud from occurring in the first place. Maybe outside of <hes> reducing that opportunity so one of the first things these are all like easy going to call embezzlement settlement is like nail your bank statements home or male into mailbox that only you can control so so many people don't do that you know but <unk>. Why would you nail him to the office where someone could inter- sucks outbreak yeah so that's like the easiest thing to do is to do that? You know another using if someone's financial circumstances have changed again. I say I got this great term parking lot audit. Does the car match the salary so I mean I had I had a guy it's just a couple hours south of me and the story was he showed up at work. One day in there is an escalade in the parking you want and he's like what I came her and then he starts like paying attention to what she's saying. She's talking about horses and so he starts snooping around eight eight hundred thousand dollars later and unfortunately for him she stole from his personal accounts because he ran inc in if she would stole from the corporate accounts it would have been covered by insurance shrimp like literally look outside. You know good style matched the salary so what to look the other way though I don't WanNa get involved or hey Kelly is the hardest worker worker I've ever seen. She comes in early. Everyday's leaves lay never takes a vacation she heck. She never leaves her desk. You know and in his like I that's yeah that's a great trait but Kelly what we're sort of talking about earlier with some of these characteristics you know trust but verify folks and do some of the things Kelly's talking talking about some of the things that really obvious you have somebody that may be is an hourly worker in cruises up with a brand new escalate that that The two hundred and fifty thousand dollar case Kelly were this bookkeeper created bogus companies vendors and service related companies in one wasn't extermination company company they would come in and spray the building but in the in he would send out the payment will long story short this business <hes> got an audit from the state where they weren't paying taxes for the last three or four years s when they called the financial crimes unit in s are looking at the books and discover a lot of these companies that were service related the company's never existed he was actually mailing them to himself and no one at the business ever realized that though that address was his home and <hes> and then what they did notice to they had a pretty bad bug problem you know so these are the things that Kelly's talking about folks is the Common Sense One and one equals two if it doesn't look right right it doesn't smell right. You know it's worth a little bit more investigation or another look at that so no he Kelly. Is there any other great tips or tricks. You know that you use for investigating interview knit pink color criminal so you know if you think it's happening and I'm GonNa tell you to trust your gut because because most people it's you know if you think it's probably happening the you've got assemble a fraud team and the coach. It's GonNa be an attorney. I have to be hired via an attorney because you know attorney client privilege. You need to deal with insurance. Hopefully lead you have insurance. You may decide to contact law enforcement. If you have insurance. They're going to make sure that police report is you may need a computer forensics spokesperson and then the most important. I've had a couple of victims. Tell me this now. Is You need a therapist and I don't think that jokingly at all because money's replaceable <unk>. It's tangible you can is a dentist. You can fill in drill more as a business owner. You can make in some more widgets but you've been ripped John's that feeling of just disappointment shame guilt like how did I not see this happening is immense and like I said and when people find out what I do I mean I I met a guy about two months ago and he heard when I did. He immediately spilled out his story without <music> out you know and it it took place over ten years ago. It is still fresh in his mind. You won't ever forget it so I always tell business. Owners get back active business leaving it to the professionals. You absolutely do not want to confront someone without good legal counsel because if you mistakenly we accused someone of embezzlement you're looking at a lawsuit and CHAPULTEPEC did that recently and it costs them eight million dollars for using a worker. Don't let true emotions. Overrule your your because this is incredibly emotional. I mean I had a woman last week crying on the phone to League and I met her yesterday teared up again yesterday because the shame that didn't happen and I trusted her. It's not money's he's just money and all this other stuff is so much harder to get pass through personal yeah exactly and that that's a big. That's a big difference between pink color white collar white collar crime very hands off. It's like Oh it's financial statement fraud or Ponzi steeds that pink colored these people that have been in your business. They have have come into your home a lot of times their family members sometimes they have violated you possibly every day for maybe even decades nights and can you imagine that feeling or everyday line straight to your face babysitting their kids or I mean yeah. It's it's so sad and in what's was interesting. We sort of talked about this pre podcast but you know we feel for the victims and victims should not feel shame. We understand that heck a lot of people in the fraud prevention in business. We've been victims of crimes ourselves. Maybe that's why we're pretty good at what we do but we know what to look for and we we've been hit before and we know that feeling an impact that it that it has hasn't the emotions at well up inside you about the personal vendetta. Basically you won't have in your house. Sometimes you don't WanNa share that information but it is so important. Isn't it Kelly to share sure that information and support those victims so we can help them and help share that information with others so others. Oh fall victims to the same scam yeah. I mean when I was this year. I got banned from same press release because I wanted to press release on every single case and the public information officer. He's like these cases are boring. No one wants to hear about this one that I met with yesterday. She's just like I wanted to make it so law. Enforcement has to do this because I want people to understand. It happens all the time and yeah so you've gotta get the word out ride. The fraud cannot be watered down because is not bleeding to death on the side of the road or a gunshot. You know homicide. I'm aside at the mall. I mean it's this is still important enough to build awareness and education with the general public so they don't become victims of of fraud schemes and so forth so a a Lotta the loudest information has been watered down in our society and with the news and you know people like Kelly folks are really trying to do a great job. Get the word out so you raise that awareness in its front sooner hopefully more so with more news releases yeah absolutely maybe that bad guys on be running down the road from the police one day after he left A. Ah Restaurant that a lot of high fiber or analysis on talk about that so we'll <hes> we'll think about that but <hes> so hey thanks so much to Kelly leave for being a great guest today. I can't say enough what a pleasure it has been talking fraud and learn about pink collar criminals today. Kelly thank you so much and do you have any other final thoughts or takeaways takeaways listeners. You know optimism bias. We always think it can't happen to us but it can. I mean I'm a victim of a tangentially from a piece of property. I unworthy water district was stolen from actually. The woman ended up committing suicide but it can happen to anyone. I don't care if you're an astronaut astronaut. There's an astronaut in Seattle who seven hundred fifty thousand dollars to a brain surgeon. It doesn't matter how smart you are. It's like it's something you have to give up control and you have to trust but just because you trust doesn't mean you don't verify that's exactly right yeah trust but always always verify and if in your particular environment do something that creates that level and and what we call in criminology one a one and Kelly and you can start laughing that perception of detection Asian. Someone's got to know that you're GONNA follow up. Someone's gotTa Know Your own double. Check on them and because as a manager or leader in your organization that's part of your job whether or not is dealing with someone the one that has potential to commit fraud so crater perception of detection where you're doing something extra in that lot of times that's just building relationships understanding the People's family situation known the names of their kids in understanding when they go from a nineteen eighty five <hes> Ford escort to nine thousand in Nineteen Escalade Vanessa problem in the parking lot audit. I love that and that's what a great takeaway so hey Kelly helping our listeners contact you for more help and advice so I have the website pink color crime dot com. I also have Kelly passing DOT com. I'm on linked in. I tweet my twitter one analyst T._V. X. C. E. hip hop on email Lincoln twitter. I love to talk to victims. I also talked onto the perpetrators. I get a lot of people who have committed these crimes. Find out about me and they want to tell me their story. I love that yeah. It's awesome so the just my websites are linked in or twitter. I'm all over. That's why we got this yeah. That's a great point what I was thinking about it earlier and you just mentioned it a lot of times in our people in our business. We have to new better job of listening to the bad guys sometimes. We don't always get to interview them. Interrogate them but listen to those behaviors and if we do get a chance to talk to them explain to the victims or potential victims out there why that bag. I thought it was easy to commit fraud against your company or against against you a lot of times. Those criminals believe it was just too easy. Oh Yeah No. I love talking to the guys and I you know I have totally doesn't like to talk to listen to the bad guys and I'm like you're not gonNA learn if you don't listen to what exhausting and most of the browsers win that they're in that situation and maybe not murderers and robbers but a lot of the financial fraudsters out there like after they've been busted. They liked to brag about their case. They they like to talk about it. Because it's a big deal. They think they're the genius in the room that outsmart everybody. They did for a while but somebody somebody smarter like Kelly to them but that's that's so important always if you get a chance to take that opportunity to learn from the firms or learn from what they're writing white papers into podcasts. S. Just like ruined the bad guys day so hey Greg Kelly great so much hey everyone all achilles contact information that she spoke about listen to podcasts notes with links links to a website linked in pages and twitter accounts. Please reach out to Kelly for some more information and advice. Kelly's a great resource on Fighting Pete caller criminal so you guys as always always please subscribe to and like Rim bag is a radio on apple itunes Youtube spotify and all those other free download services. We really appreciate your feedback feedback and continued support in. Hey thanks again in stay tuned for another great episode from Roosevelt Guys Day. Radio had a great week. Thanks for listening to ruin a bad guys day radio PODCAST WITH SKIP Myers. If you liked our show these tell your friends fans and colleagues you can learn more about us at Ruina bad guys day dot com or visit us on twitter and facebook at Ruina bad guys day join us for another episode <music> out ruin a bad guys day radio podcast the information provided and ruin a bad guys day. Radio podcast is for informational purposes. Only it should not be considered legal or financial advice. 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