562: Arrow S7E20 Review: "Confessions"

Automatic TRANSCRIPT

Welcome back to the speedy. Aero cast. I'm Rick Ojos, Dan, Morin, and I am joined by my co hosts in separate interrogation rooms, John Moulton is here. Did you do it? John molds, Dan. I just want you to know because I don't know if everybody who reads, this podcast knows. But I'm incredible park were. I did know that actually. Also here guy English. Stop lines me guy. Tell me the whole story. Well, you know what I look at my friend John Moulton. I just think we have to protect him. I like hearing that. Himself. Mainly we are, of course, year to talk about ERO season. Seven episode twenty entitled confessions which is a pretty good title for this episode since there are many confessions in this episode. Some of them real false. And I believe that guy has chosen to do the recap of this interesting and different episode. I have, and I think just lied to you guys. John before the show, we were saying that this would benefit from, like a thirty mile view. And I guess, sure I got I got little notes, and I did it. We're counting six hundred and eighty five words, so many not as bad as usual, but still not that six hundred drive. See if that's more or less than a number of words in my notes. I have more than that. But that's because. Right, right. Like sentences. And then just that's it. Yeah. Full anyway. Whatever who cares? Nobody gives out this. So everyone cares for you know what, what's really making me hot turn onto the speedy IRA is, how do they take those notes? Anyway. So we opened on a crime scene with two dead guards Ollie, Ollie, and the team were on sight in a separate colored flashback. The gang is discussing how to get the lost chemical weapons bag digging Ali, visit this guy, Mr. Toft at aerodyne industries, he does not seem to want to help at all. So Felicity hacks into this is accounted in interviews and stuff. But basically, the floor vents. Turns out in the fastback Felicity has hacked into toss accounts and determined that he was on the take from the ninth circle. And it turns out somebody else was on the scene. Not just all the team, and it turns out that somebody was a boy, boy, which is awesome. Yeah. You worry park or boy? So, Dan, what's actual name pourquoi? Yeah. Only gets to call them that though. Weird. Do you know what I almost started bidding on that? And I'm like you know what? Just leave that. Dining wants to know where it was after he went missing, and what he was up to but know there's all these cancers, because he was traveling the world thea has it back in the flashbacks, turn the worry tells Ali, that has finally passion which from the sound of it sounds like killing ninjas. Is your passion and destroying Lazarus pits? But whatever it's better, the dating Alex. Moving up in the world. If you're gonna live your best life, it's not going to be with Alex. Voy does. So they've got to infiltrate dine industries to get some McGovern. And so does our court and it is pretty awesome. And then he doesn't even more awesome thing where we flips so down and does a like an arrow trick shot. And then slips through the spinning fan that he just got through and it's a big fight fight fight with a three guys in hoods. In the control room Felicity lies at she didn't see any guards, but she had and leaves to go check things out and saying, we can't just leave them there. She claims not to know where was when the guards were killed. This is all happening in the interview room in SAP boy, getting into by the cops, just like the good old days. And he says he was attacked by ninth circle hoods and in another big fight fight fight. He beats up a bunch of them doing some awesome Perko were fighting. But gets knocked up. During his interview, Diggle says was unconscious when he found him on the floor. They notice that he has blood on his sleeve, and that's not a good sign that people interviewing him I should say Dina and our our biff for this season. I think the hardest, the hardest working constable patrol sergeant being Li things is, is real bad, man. This guy's on the case this it's true. Sensory biff things Li Google that invited out that it's like some classic VC character should too. Pretty good. Anyway. Diggle claims it Vinnie split offer him when he saw it and make it run for it when he chased after her Diggle went to went and found boy, Dan he heard gunshots. Ring out Diggle investigated to find t- dead. Guards Diggle, then looks up sees Renee standing over the bodies holding pipe when be cut to being interviewed, and the cops want to know whether MRs, where his missing glove is that's seems to go nowhere. But whenever in a flashback. Ali checks on venite to make sure he's okay before they go off on this mission that the where things went south on saying that hit become close Emiko kind of a good talk. But basically just setting them up as they both care about Emiko, but. Vinnie has it Real Sociedad on Ali at this point things that she's just like a liar? Wants to be wary of her. As version of the story on interview is that he went after Emiko, and that he didn't catch up to her in reality did, and she holds them at our point, he tries to turn her onto the light sort of the force and she admits the cheap Mr. being the, the lead of the night circle and tells her your mother wouldn't hate what you've become. So she grazes him with an arrow and takes off. Then finds Oliver on the platform over the two dead bodies holding a pipe. Ali says not a smoking pipe smoking. Yeah. Like all the in the conservatory with the lead pipe. Vigilante pipe pretty much that kind of play. If you beat somebody over the head with the pipe. Where did they get that pipe from anyway? Whatever. Pipes dummy. Anyway. On his interview, Oliver says that he book into the ventilation room did a fight fight fight, then he disarmed, the device hurt the shots and then upon arriving on the scene. He says he found his sister Emiko had killed the two guards. We don't see him see that. Back in the in the cave through all having little book club and diner rise. And it is revealed that it has all been a scam. They'd lied and that got away with it because of being xlii as all biff ever turns out to have had the right idea to stymied by superiors. The real story. So now we get to see the whole thing, sort of thing from beginning to end. Dinah is with the team as they go into the subway station, all Ian Dina gets the ventilation moon, voice fights the hoods in the corridor as we saw earlier. But he gets knocked out for a second and then gets up and he goes into a full miracle ridge when the transit officers tried to stop him, he attacks and beats them to death with a pipe that he found on the ground because it's clue. It is clue. Yeah. Mira cooter Rancho. Yeah. But that's what you're reading my notes in time. I have not. You make wrong. This is all in folding you may be surprised did not do an editing pass on this happened before exactly the team arise and ROY is a broken man. They stop from beating on the guy and he's sort of. Can wild-eyed and killed up in a ball. Which is where all he says, we have to protect them all also looking pretty shaken. And then. My nights. I was hoping to just roll into this one, but now you're gonna have to beat it. Oh, shoot that wasn't. Sorry. Shoots turns that wasn't Mira Q. How did that? How did you die is what all he has to ask voi-? I did not see that coming. I actually I got it right before like as right as they're talking about it. I got it. But he says, I think I know what it was. I think right. When he says, I think I yeah, right around the time of that. I think I got there just about the same time all he did. It must be something. I didn't really quite get it. But. I can't remember I think I think before he admits, I think I got it to. But because they were talking if they spent a lot of time talking about the laws, but that was a tip. But like it was it was right around the time. All he says, I, I know what it was like. Yeah. Me too. I did not. I really just thought it was quite then. But anyway, that's my note. Say, oh, shoot. So it turns out during a on the Lazarus ROY took an arrow which is ironic. He says then the're resurrected him in the lasers fit, and then destroyed it. They were trying to keep his, his murderous rage under control. But. Oops, I don't know. He said something about Mira q, who cares doesn't matter which machine. They find emiko's. Luckily, somehow they find although now in hindsight, I guess, it's a set of defined MacOS Hitler. And in what appears to be the dumbest thing dumdum all the his ever done. He tells ROY to come along, because they're a team they just killed innocent. I question that decision as well. All these like you're brother to me come along. And let's put you in another situation where you make people. When he's not being at Dickey's being dumped on. Anyway. All basically manages to confront Emiko, but she's in a glass booth which seems like an obvious. Gimme that I don't know why. Every other villain hasn't thought of that. I. Emiko tells Ali that she didn't warn their father about the bombs on the gambit when she had the chance then she blows all. Yup. Which have to say after all of these years is pretty good. Villain move Ali looks pretty much done for. He's got like a big heavy love on them. So there one one additional detail. He we also have the brief scene where Felicity. Thanks Dina for getting rid of the footage at the subway. Yeah. Right. She says that wasn't me and then Emiko reveals of course, she sent it to fifty fifty Li. Early. So they're going to be in trouble. Yes. They'll get me in trouble. Yeah, I miss that him. And it was actually pretty engaged in the episode vitamin there. Well. It'd be different than I thought exactly. And that's basically the end of the episode little bit of a cliffhanger or cliff follower, cliff cliff, basically, I'm pretty sure they'd just they blew up slabs it again. It's a real big hang. I, I thought this was a really interesting structure to an episode like having the intertwining stories it has like a usual suspects by two it, right. Like, I think that's kind of shooting, or like even the beginning like is Dina says, once he's brought in on the scene where the suspects or something. And so we each get filtered through each of their different perspectives, even though like the thing, that's sort of raised my eyebrows about it was like, why is tying to being so hard on them like this seems really out of character? But when you view it in retrospect, of course, as April, it makes perfect sense that she's trying to distance herself and provide credibility to their stories by grilling them. I think the one thing you really have to. Just get over it except I mean, more than recoup hit some people coming back from the dead. Is that these people kill people every day, like every every week, there's, like just dead bodies everywhere. So. It's a little weird. These guys are being leaving says that's all of it, right. Like you says you killed before, like a lot. But he doesn't mean last week, he means like prior to going jail. Yes. Which is true like you have to get over the conceit of the show, which is when they shoot people and stick them with arrows, they're actually okay or their ninjas in it doesn't matter. Yeah, they're not actual people. There. Yeah. I think that's a bit racist. Well, let me rephrase that they're henchman and they don't count. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But so I, I really like this didn't go the way expected it to go. Just from the even from this coloring on the, the flashbacks thought was good. I. It was well-structured. It was interesting. It kept me engaged. I didn't see. While it sort of played out not alien to what I was expect any of the characters to do. I, I wasn't sure what was going to happen. And the, the big switch, which we already talked about. I really didn't see coming good on them the so in couple. Interesting things to me. One is the. The reviews where I had a couple of things. Minor le- spoiled for me in that I saw a headline like last night. That was like, I knew ROY was coming back because I had seen the announcement that, that he was going to appear in the present. And then I saw briefly just the the headline of a recap. And it's like Roy's back, and here's a crazy secret or something. And I was like, oh, all right. Well, he's got a crazy secret. There's limited I didn't immediately jumped to he died because, but I was pretty sure that they did a nice job because even though I was kinda convinced going into, like, okay, he must have done something. They deflected enough attention from him that I was willing to buy that, like he wasn't directly involved. And so it ended up being a nice sort of double twist. There I was actually pity showed that he had been the one to murder them. But because we saw him crack earlier this season. And I can't I thought it was just a mirror cuvee laps. And I took it to me that, that's why he's hiding out on the island the beginning, right? Yeah. No. I agree with that. Why did we see him in the flash forwards he flips out or something? Yes. Yeah. You say that I, I didn't think of it during the episode. But now you say I think you're right. Yeah, because it was never clear why he was on the island. Yes. Agreed. Right. Perfect sense agree. Yeah. The other thing I was going to compare it to this, because it was something we talked about totally off topic. A while back was the reminds me of an attempt at doing something like the nine episode in the pale moonlight, where it's a very questionable narrator and be you have our characters making a decision that is actually morally very questionable, right? Like there's a discussion briefly at the end like should we he's like I should turn myself in or something. And they're like, well, then we are going to have to rehash the whole our vigilance, these are bad from the city and we have, like an active threat running around that the are not gonna be able to deal with which is a very practical answer. But yeah, you just covered up your buddy murdering two. Totally in his people. That is not a very heroic thing to do. And it looks like it's backfired on. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. It does. It seems like they're all going to jail, which is. Because it should they should get them in trouble based on, like, yeah, I guess. Yeah. I mean, I guess so, you know, we, we've watched the show for so many years now and let them in let you know and. In order to root for the hero, you have to sort of decide that he can get away with a lot of stuff that I don't think in real life, we would want someone getting away with right. But I think that's the whole purpose of the first six months of the season of putting him in prison was trying to establish, like, there are real stakes now because we like you know, in this that we the shows ending, what if we know we're near the end of the season, all this stuff, we're taking the meta, you know out of it like it should have some level of fear to it. And we also know what happens in the future in that, like vigilantes are really looked down on. And I think we're starting to get to the point of realizing why that is. And huge props to Emiko for not saying that she was twenty steps ahead Develey? I also appreciate that. She's just really effective. She blew him up. She didn't both that much. She stuck with, like an emotional thing. And then just left the scene. Yeah. She doesn't she got she got lucky. Right. Because because the she didn't like they've brought ROY into this, and she just capitalized on it, right. Yeah. That's a great point. And we also haven't seen her. We really haven't seen her morally waffle, like everything, I think, in which that was the case was kind of for show earlier in the season, where we think she's, she all ear, like sort of getting along and breaking down barriers. I think we establish that basically all of that was kind of an act. Like I mean, I think she, I think she could have gone either way when she'd Esther dead for money to start her company. Oh, yeah. But that was well before the events of the season. Yes, yes, that was like the moral turning point, when she burns, the looney tunes plans for the boat think that's. The only thing that I think she is somewhat soft on is Rene. Because I think she could easily have killed him with that shot. Oh, yeah. And she doesn't, I think she very deliberately shoots wound him. I think she does have a soft spot for him. But that's not going to change her mind about, you know, her agenda. No, right. There's not an again. Yeah. Well, I don't think she's not morally wealth there, either no point. She wants to save him. She's like she doesn't want to kill him. She has she postures that he is in danger when he's not really. Yeah. Like she even says, I'm gonna kill you this time. But like it's never gonna happen. Yeah. Yeah. But she's never like she's not a character that we've at this point. I don't think that anybody would think there's any chance of redemption. Right. It's not like laurels situation where it's like, well maybe he'll come around. Right. Like I don't think so. I think wasn't Vince that she she's bad guy. She's convinced Malcolm Merlyn Slade, even slow back around Slade sleigh was different. Yeah. I mean sleep is crazy. And even Malcolm, actually, was that whole thing when he's trying to explain it to, to his son on the good guy. Tommy. When he's trying to explain it to. Tommy is basically a crisis of his own conscience. Right. Like he wants his son to understand go along with him, so that he could feel better about the course of action. He's taken. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So he's trying to convince himself even Malcolm does to have some sort of moral come because he goes back and forth, where he has his kids that he wants to protect and all that. Whereas Elliot, I just mean in the first season when he a big I mean after that. Yeah, but I think Emiko really has like she's just out for revenge. And that point you're totally right. She's a lot like Malcolm in season one. So, yeah, I, I thought that was an interesting conclusion in like like you said, like, John, she's just she's good. She's really good. She's really thought this through. Yeah. Yeah. You know, in thinking back, then it was like I was like, wait a minute, like this seems seems preposterous. How could she have set that whole thing, and then I realize, no, she didn't set the whole thing up. She only took advantage of leader. She grew after they screwed up right? I agree with guys Sussmuth a drink bringing ROY along the end makes zero sense. I don't understand why they don't leave him in the bunker with Felicity. Yeah. Because he's gonna lift up giant, welcome something. There's going to be some drink. He invites him along. And then we don't see any of the team right? They run off in different directions. But, like there's no there's no repercussions for him being invited long. So I imagine the next episode it's going to start. I feel like this is I can't count how many there were this season but I mean, I wanna see, like four where I was watching the episode. And I was thinking, oh, no. This is another one like this. I keep doing it where I think, oh, this is another classic aero episode which I'm not gonna like because it's too plug convenience ploughs, and some of it's still was blocking means but still. When the twist came I was like, okay now this. Okay. Now, this makes sense. Now, this is much better. Yeah. Home until, like three quarters of the way through the episode which is nice. It's nice. Yeah. Yeah. Did so good. So to your point, I did like the change of foam at, like the usual suspects kind of thing because at least that's mixing, it up a little. But you're right. I did feel like it was playing out more or less a standard arrow episode with an ice twist to the, the presentation. And then we got something pretty great out of it. So very happy. Yeah. Couple things. We'll do this. We'll do we'll do the, the ritual wanted to call out a couple of things that I liked in here. One I do. Enjoy ROY coming back down and meeting people in the bunker and Felicity like freaking out. And I think she and Emily records and called Hanes are like, really good friends. Like they haven't had I guess, they, they have a scene together in the flash, forwards, probably at some point. But still, it was very acute moment that, I liked the comment about ROY being incredible Parker which feels like a thing that, everybody, I mean, that was the thing I started reading in one of the reviews might have been on the av club or something. They talked about ROY Parker wearing all the time, and I kind of feel like that was a, a writers, reading those reviews moment and just be like, yeah, let's just like let's throw it out there to say it. Getting to which the fight fights great, but take you voice. Yep. Yeah. Was good. All these in the room with the bomb was pretty solid and within without Dina, the guy with the crazy shock staff that was kind of by the way, you've stumbled upon our sponsor. Oh. I said lecture Steph. Electric's ten percent off electric staff. Yeah, it's, it's a big Longstaff with spoke bits at the end and it's used by bad guys. We all we all get one for free. We did we did from battle droids on separatists who's using cluding general from cells. Share? And now it's available to wash outs from the league of essence. So if you order now thrown about it is, it's really great for jump starting your Spartan helmet. Got a heads up helmet. That works. I really liked all of verse thing at the end where even though misguided as it might be when Oliver tells ROY that they've covered for him. And ROY says you didn't you didn't have to do that, or didn't ask you to do that. You Oliver says you never have to ask me ever. Like I really liked to that. And I liked Stephen mel's delivery and performance on that line because I thought really sold it for me, like he knows everything that he owes ROY, even if ROY has not been on the team for a long time, broil went to prison and faked his death for all of really like that history is all encapsulated in that one exchange. And I thought that was a really really nicely done. I kind of even like the way as like he's on the team. And. In the old school. They would have been like just going to shoot an arrow and your leg. A new school Elliot's like a little bit more politics. No, he's always on the team, but that's it. It's end of discussion. But I really love that ended hearken back to me for to some of the more tender moment them, one or two kind of thing. Yeah. We're all he was basically just at dick all the time. But when it you know. Every now and then he would say something kind to either the or Tommy, or even even what's his name. At times. True. Yeah. Like like oh, yeah. After he shoots lawyer in the leg, and he goes to be moves it in his at the mansion and goes and takes the arrow out and fixes them up, and he says, look stay away from him. It's bad news. He's always had been. He's always tried to take care of him in kind of way and I this fit into that relationship in a great way that I felt satisfied with. Yeah, I if anything, my only disppointment with ROY has been, this is the only time we get to interacting in the present. If. Yeah. I think I think he'll, I think given that we're, I think the next episode basically picks up where this leaves off, it seems like called the Hanes at least six around for that, but we'll have to see what happens after that. One more thing that I liked about this was that the previous to have been sort of character like big character episodes. We had the Canaries in that we had Diggle underneath the Diggle intern show, this one, I did not know was going to be about Louis. Yeah. And I loved it. It's, it's nice to because you also get the feeling. I don't know what the situation is. There's a lot of questions hovering around next season, and how that's gonna work with a shorter episode count. And with Felicity leaving among other things, I think it's nice to bring back some characters so you can kind of put a bow on their stories, which I think is what's happening between this and the fast forwards for ROY, so that's that is a nice move to because it's not it's not quite a character study ROY but he does get a lot of moments here. I mean overall, I think it is really nice team episode as well, just because we get to go through all of their different stories and stuff like that. So a lot of good moments for the team. But yeah, it's, it's nice to sort of sort of tie up where ROY is going from here. I think. Yeah, and just to the fighting again voi-, engages two of these two guys wrapping himself around one guy's neck and grab any other guy forming like a some kind of like like the number pie. Shape. That was awesome. I loved it also. That's typically the kind of move. Like a woman fighter do. And it just loves it. It's called Stonehenge. Yeah. Exactly. Thank you. Once I got letter the number pi in my head, I couldn't get stone. And then the other thing dimension, which just sort of minded looking at this as that emiko's plan is not as with so many villains plants, not just to kill all over, but to basically ruined his reputation, and as she puts it tournament to a villain like their father, which I thought was also an interesting point, given the so much of what we've seen about Robert, especially after his death as not been super complementary. Yeah. So yeah, there's a real threat there. And again, as we've seen in the future. Vigilantes things are not great. But she doesn't spend all her time vetting about it either. No. She's, she's here too. She's here to not make friends and blow up bombs. Well, it's like pretend to make friends in and yeah, yes, she's just got him. She drops like an emotional bomb on him and then just blows them up. Actual. All right. Any last thoughts before we ritual the sucker? Sounds like a no, John, once they you. Well, okay. So I had been prepared coming into this discussion to give it a John junior because I was I was a little bit annoyed about the beginning. I and I still had that feeling even if they managed to turn it around at the end. And I also feel like some of it was still like, bringing ROY along at the end doesn't make a lot of sense. And that seemed a little black convenes play house to me. But and talking about it with you guys. I think I've decided to go with, with biff because there's enough about it. That's that was really good. It turned out that turn at the end was really good. I do even though I found some of the, the, the repetition kind of annoying as I was going through it, I applaud them for doing something, different and. Yeah. I mean looking back on it, I think it's, it's better than I was giving a credit four. So I'm gonna give. All right. Guy. I agree with John. I was visited to give it a bit. If I was excited I do like it. When I talked to you guys mentioned to change my mind, so glinting classic view. I take all of your points. There was a bunch of stuff like thinking about it that like. Yeah. So it'll be paint by numbers. But the good bits about it. I think really pulled it out for me. Just seeing it was great. Having a park dance over beams. Trick shot through a fan. Upside down, that was great. The fight fighting was aces. The character development was good. Within the. Within this sort of, structure of doing an episode like this. Overall? I thought it was green. It's a bit for me. It's a bit Billingsley. Things Li things let's keep easily. I yeah, I think I had the same sort of feeling as you guys where it's like I was kind of on the fence about this. This is a strange does feel like roads that we've we've traverse before. But what I give them credit for was key. Continually coming up with red herrings that made me question my own theory about what had happened because every time somebody's sauce. Somebody else standing over the body or thought somebody else was involved. I actually was like, was it that person or are they covering for this person? And it just kept me guessing, just enough that even though I wasn't like shocked about the ultimate. Reveal of would kill these people. I wasn't one hundred percent certain going in like, you know, definitely a lot this, what happened I liked the feeling of, of figuring out what happened like right about the time. All he did was kind of a nice reveal like it wasn't something that was telegraphed to early. It was different. It was interesting. There's a lot of good performances said, there's enough here that is good and solid, even when it felt like it was might devolve into sort of dull territory that I it came out as a win for me. So I'm going to greet. It's biff it's not the strongest. So we've had this season, but it's neither is the weakest. So I would I would give it a thumbs up. And it sort of catapults pretty well, it seems like into the last two of the season because I think we're going to kind of not really stopped from here is my guests do want to call it one piece of writing in particular that I just thought of while you were talking. When all he goes to confront ROY about what happened. I thought that was really well done. Yes. Yeah. They have a good scene. It's clinton. Hang did it happen. When did it happen, Wendy yet? So there's no, like I know what Liz, none of that. It's a it's that's a self-assured piece of writing. And that's it's that's exactly it self assured the characters no each other. You're confident that the actress complete off, and they do. I thought that was very clever very well done piece, rebounding, really served the big video. Well, so kudos to Hanes, too, I think I I do miss every time he shows up again. I'm he's really just solid. He's a really good actor on this show, and I miss having him around. But I'm glad that they could bring him back in for some more episodes, same. All right. Well, we have done are due diligence in wrapping up confessions. We have to episodes left in this season. So there's still some. Some final stuff to, to wrap up, but shall we do some superhero sleep? Anything happened this week? Thing. Anybody see any movies this week? Do you wanna talk about that? Or do you wanna talk about? I noticed that guy. Or someone put in our super Swede topics also the Gotham finale was also seen it. You. Okay. So we won't talk about that. What? To sign off. I mean this made the real like hit the spoiler sweep double heart because. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So this will be early. You may not have seen the movie we're going to talk about. It is she's am she's Zan. The movie. Everybody's talking about I. All right. We are going to talk about endgame of interest and game, which came out this past weekend. If you do not want to hear anything about avengers, endgame, you can probably safely, stop the show. Now, we won't say anything interesting what I'll do. I'll even put a chapter marker in at the end of the episode, where we just wrap rep up and sign off. I don't think. If anybody wants to you really finish line stupid stupid last two minutes of the show, you can do that aftermarket for you. But other than that, you have been warmed and we will now take our fire off our spoiler horn, and take our our moment of superhero sweep. Silence and then launch into and game discussion. So that moves with you. All right. They're gone. Can you believe what happened to game of thrones? I can barely see what happened in game. We turn the lights down. It seemed fine anyway. Okay. Okay. Switch spoiled. Superhero show kind of little bit. We'll sort of. This is a big a couple like full on incomparable episodes talking about it, but we should at least spent some time talking about it. This is. Man like if feels like a lot to talk about because it's the three hour movie because all want happens, and even as I've been thinking about it over the last several days, I still am thinking, like I'm gonna need to see this again, at some point, but I actually feel like it's the first marvel movie in a long time where I'm like, but not for a little while like at the like I need to sit with it before I dive right back in because it's like I feel like that. Twice. Oh man. I, I think these last hour is there's so much going on. So motionlessly ringing parts that I've just like I need a little break before. I see you again. So I was thinking of going tonight. And then I realized. Other superhero commitments but I think I'm gonna go tomorrow night, pretty late. Because Dan, you and I are recording on Thursday, leave. Yeah, that's comparable coop. So I wanted to see it twice because I saw Thursday when it came out. I, I don't know. I really enjoyed it. Yeah. But if I'm going to talk about it. I kinda wanna be watching it with a little bit more more of an eye actually, what's happening rather than just getting swept away. But. Yeah. It's interesting because there is there. Yeah, I don't even know. I kinda know where there's just so much in there. I have some nitpicks about some decisions that were made. I've been reading a lot of articles about it in the last couple of days, and I think that there are some really good points about the failures of the marvel movies to date and how some of them are exemplified in game, but that said it did not take away from my ultimate enjoyment of the movie, and, and feeling like it was a fitting capper to these like twenty odd movies. Yeah. And I mean, it certainly certainly for capping Tony. I. Characters. They're, they're in seemed to really fit their whole arc. Yes. Yeah. Despite the somewhat. The plot and mechanics of that plot being kind of nonsensical at times, even like time travel is a difficult concede to work with. And I think that the they hit all the emotional beats even if the logical way that the time travel works is I did not have with really very much of the logic. How does how does back? Well, okay, there's ways to me, there's a lot of ways that you can explain it, and that's really enough for me. Okay. I don't think they need to go into every detail and. Thought that you tell. I think if you make rules you should be consistent with those rules. And there are definitely parts that don't seem to follow the path that they've laid out. I think that's the whole idea of the Infinity since those rules, you just do what you want. They don't even use the news for most of it. The time travel time travel thing has has some issues because. Set up a pop culture, like, oh, it's like these time travel movies, and they're like, no, it's definitely not like those time travel movies because we. Trouble. But then it kind of like, yeah, I don't know. It's a little bit range. Okay. So if you didn't listen to us before for real, now, go away. Seriously? So when does the snap to Illich God knows what he did to the entire existence? Right. That's fair. It'd be like I want to go and have life with Peggy. I'd everything's fine. That's what I wish and that's what's going to happen. And that. And I'm okay with that. But the idea that like, when he snaps people in planes that crash where they materialize realize at home with their loved ones. It's fine. Like, you know that I'm okay with I think the thing the thing with cap and Peggy's a little strange just because he gives specifically goes back in time to return supposedly return all the stones, and then he stayed doesn't go back in time, he goes to parallel universes region. The stones, okay so and, and I guess back in time with a parallel universe then. Well, I think that's, that's what I assume because otherwise he can't he can't come things that because otherwise things that have that he can't change the past. They already said that they can't change the past. She's already, she's already lived a life with somebody else and died. Yeah. Although it's a little vague because the cannon so far they never really talk about. I don't think they ever concretely say who she not one hundred percent but she ends up with Susa the end of. I thought they said like when she was on the deathbed like I married, a good man or something. Okay. So I I really watched. We watch both all three captain America movies this weekend, because we watched endgame, we can't really want it to them. So we watch them all. It's, it's vague. There's never there's a part where pictures of her with her kids, but there is no husband in the picture. I think if the engine Tanic there. She says that that in civil. Winter soldier that he saved her husband's a unit. Yes, he says, she c-. He stopped a hydra blockade which turned out to include the man that that would go on to your husband. But that's also kind of ambiguous, that's less then. And then came back into the picture. Well, no, I mean well, he saved himself like and if he goes. Okay. Yeah. Okay. But I think the whole point is that if they go back in time, they, they create a new timeline. Regardless of anything else. Yeah. I think that was that was pretty consistent throughout the rest of the movies. So I figure he went to back anyone. He started another time line. And he lived he lived a life with peg, and then he talked to hang him or he did something. And he came back to that. Yeah. Specifically say that right there like when you go back in time. Your past is still your pass. So it's still there and then it becomes your future. So it gets like grafted on right? Yeah, I the trick is the trick is him coming back at the very end because that doesn't it's not really explained in its. But I don't I don't care that it's kind of intimated that he just got old in this timeline. So it could just be a difficult in it using it could not be the same cap. This is true. Oh, anyway, I'm not gonna say that, that really like took away, you know, too much of my enjoyment in the film, debating that there was way too much other stuff that I really liked. And so. I did okay spider fish won an Oscar for this hippie. So, so let's just go with it stuff that I absolutely loved. I mean, the moment where everybody comes back is pretty fantastic. Especially when we watched winter soldier right after the Sam on your left thing is like that was great. The chokes me up the thing that the thing that I did not see coming that really made me like yell in the theater was capping meal near like that was I was like, oh my God. I did not think they were going to do this ever. That moment in. As of ultra he goes, he goes pick it up and it moves just. Fine. You could've left it that you could have like well, okay. I think that was it was written for a joke. Yeah. Then but. In so much of this movie, they went back and picked up. Yes. Like little things. Yeah. Yeah. They like, you know, taking all of these the Bank, and guess what two billion dollars? But, like, yeah, yeah, just story wise, took them to the Bank, and it worked great seeing when we see a miniature. Move a little bit. Mio. I thought it was going to come in Concha panels on the head, it self, exactly. Nope. Awesome. That was such a it was a well earned moment. And also Thor Thors. I knew it. And he's right. Like in the John, he looks kind of worried. Right. Like that's my favorite thing is these characters who love each other and are just psyched about all being together. Again. I that's great. I think one of the best things that the marvel universe has done is leaned into Chris Hemsworth, comic shops, which are. He is like there's glimpse of glimpses of it in the first tooth or movies. And then when he's in the. Comfy down more and then in, in ragnarok, obviously, it's like just like what's do this. And they really lean into it again, here, they made some choices that I think we're less good than others about him. But overall, Chris Hemsworth, just his performance is great. Yeah, so, yeah. Full his little seem with his mother. I love it's great. Nice to get closer on that. So many things time travel. Let's do like it's very much back to the future to where like even the point where like, Tony skulking around the edges of the, you know, of his of tower in the first avengers movie like hiding from the rest of them in very back to the future for two. And he says, at the America's asked joke, which is good. Yes. Yes. Tastic. I loved cap famously does not swear. And then he comes around the corner themselves as that you gotta be getting. No. He has that one in ultra onto right at the very beginning of Altron could they make? No, no, no, no. Tony Tony says, and he says he says language. Net net says making fun of that whole fight Cappon cap was awesome. And then he knows just how to play him. Well, well, I thought it was mistake, but anyway, he knows how to play them Fisher. Oh, yeah. He's, he's alive. Yeah. Right. Which is amazing is. Oh, I. Integrating that in filth. And he's like, okay, we'll use this. I love that when he gets knocked down and getting open the other guys goes, I could do this all day. He's I know. I love the cap cap is in Noida by his own goody. Could he just like anybody? He's such a such a boy scout. Because he's involved in he's grown in that over intervening time. Right. He's, he's, he's at I and to go with both of those the scene in the elevator, of course, which was such a fantastic setup and then undercutting where he gets the elevator literally like the scene from winter soldier, and you're like, all right. He's going to have to do the whole elevator. And then he just just a hail hydra thing. Hey, walks to the like people, everybody got bent out of shape about cats being hydra in the comics. And somebody yes, I don't think most people are going to get that. No comment loved it. It's just so smart, right. Like, oh, wait easier. Could win that fight not a problem your father. It was nice. They got they got most of the same like, actually. You got sit. Well, like you've got all the yeah the big bulk guy with the beard. Would've left. I mean, this is impossible, but getting channeling would be a hurt right? Getting Redford back, like, you know, for that scene in the lobby was pretty great bananas that you can get these people to just show up like a little bit. I'm assume an I assume that the Natalie Portman stuff was full that they already felt like footage for me. I agree. But she's credited that was sort of the prized this your credit with everybody else. Contracts. Right. The other had to or they did it have any lines though. So I wondered why also agree. I thought it was probably reused footage, although I mean. Yeah. Case full of money. Plus courtesy plus agent bliss. I wanted I wanted to see rocket try to. Bizarre scene. Who I thought was like? Sort of wouldn't say a hero, but, like as far as an actor goes, like a subtle hero in this is LOKI is Tom Hilton because he comes in and he's, he's dead. But he does a bunch of extra scenes, and it, sorta seems like he's not in the movie because it's all he's all in full in the past but but at the same time he's also setting himself up for TV. With the right. And I wondered if that was the jumping off point for the miniseries. They're doing I think it's gonna be lucky running around with the space stone for a while. Yeah. Yeah. So the cool thing about having those stones, not go the way that they went in our reality, is that it doesn't matter because the Intel that phantoms gets is from, like the updated reality of that. Do you know what I mean? From the like Donald knows it. Loki absconded with the with the stone. So he knows to get it there. Yeah. Yeah. Like the way the way he manages to collect all the stones still kind of legit. Right. Because the gut is, updated along with them having moved. Well except you can't you can't change their time. Okay. So all different timelines any. Okay. Anyway, I've attract my. Timelines man. That one particular time, you know, but I guess maybe the time stone. I don't know if they're infinite if there. Well, I mean they have to go back and how does cap do all that by himself. But so it's okay. He's got he's got a hammer. It's fine. I'm not convinced that plan makes any sense because I don't think the ancient one is that convinced of it either. Yeah. That scene is a little strange because she goes like that scene. You go through a very dated explanation of why you have to be careful about this. And then it never really gets back to that will banish like I'll be right back to me. If you try to go back to being it back, you'll just create a new timeline. Well, don't think she minds I when I heard what she said. I don't think that's the problem. I think she's really. I think she's subtly referencing. The fact that door mama was coming and the time stone in order to stop Dohrmann, oh, and the, you know, like you can't just take this because I need this later because this thing is going to happen. And without without saying that specifically in. That's all they create another. You know, a slightly different time line. That's fine as long as they have the time. Stone people be she could have looked at all the possible futures, like strange it and decide that we're barely didn't so there's one of two things either her time line is condemned to be destroyed. Domo. The dog or. Went snaps his fingers, he decimates all life in his time line. And all of the time. Oh, dear. That's a real. That's a real metaphysical. No, no, no. Because that doesn't that doesn't work because there are different. They're different. Finnity stones in different timelines and because. Well, I mean, okay they've address this in the comics, at least okay? And if I mean, actually, I think, in the comics. Well, these from parallel universes. If you get Infinity stones from different universes. They don't work right in your universe. Okay. So more intense. That makes that makes sense. I've run all of the quantum theory in my head. Sure, it's like when you go to a different country, and you need after for your power. Yeah, there's a. Yeah. It's fine. It's fine. It's not a thing that bears thinking about because so much the comes from, like what's happening right in front of you. Ain't given moment. Am kind of I'm kind of torn about the time travel back to previous movies thing. I like I, I think it's one way it's a nice sort of tip of the hat to the stuff that they've done to date. And then the other aspect is that seems like a clip show. I of interleaving it and also making it a point where like sure it seems a little bit like a clip show, but you get to see like the new stuff. Yeah, the new stuff the new angles, the style, you didn't entirely see into Tony's Tony's time with Howard is Tony time with Howard is great, although it would have been really funny for capterra run into him to enjoy their, their relationship. Yeah. But he would have known who absolutely one hundred percent but it would have been great. And I was gonna say the thing that, like I it's funny, too, 'cause like I spend so much time trying to untangle certain parts of the plot. That, like I get like wrapped up my own head. So I was thinking I got a little boy, because felt like oh, Carol's first appearance, bringing Tony ship-back doesn't like how does it fit with the whole thing, where she shows up in the pagers gone off from the captain marvel and then cat had to point out to me like, no, she shows up then they sent her to go gets, but as a change of format for those for those bumpers? Right. Because usually the bumper in the next movie in this instance, it's actually. No, this is what happens in between the movie you just saw in the movie that you're going to me wondered if it was in and game. And they cut it just be. I mean they. I mean they. Over time. And that you see that you'd have to marvel anyways, so why. But yeah, 'cause it's, it's I kind of missed having that moment of like people being like who the hell are right? Like, yeah, but that would have, you know, that's like two three minutes of screen time minimum. Yeah. Like who are you? What are you doing? How do you know fury? What's going on? Oh santa's. Okay. Who's tony? Why do I care about Tony? Okay. Where do they go? It's a busy. It's exposition. It's all busy work. Whatever let it go. Save Nonni which by the way, Tony and. No. Hanging out with lovely. I liked that so much the way that they get along great playing playing finger football playing football and she's just so which is good. Although it does beg the question of, like I feel like that's those are great scenes, but it soon as he gets back with the rest of the avengers like any bomb that they had totally va- parades. I wish I think they were best. Yeah. Yeah. Like on bonds did evaporate because it was the end of the universe like that was bad. Yeah. Five years passes. I mean he goes off he goes off to the cabinet. Yeah. I mean, that's I thought that was fair. I thought it was fine. I just like to, and I didn't get the sense that they were good friends, they would just both good at tinkering stuff and hanging were hanging out and they. Very nice spec. Where where she like puts? Yeah. Exactly like. Yeah. Right. Gives him the oxygen to public. She doesn't need it. That much something but right? Although somebody pointing out like, you know, she has like this one of the, the one of the place, other places that critiques this movie come into play. And I got a good article from this, I think it was from over on nine about the role of women in this movie in the role of women in the in the entire M C, you at times being relegated to very much relegate the second fiddle and caretaker for the male characters, and nobody notices that when nebula comes back like, the, the fake nebula comes back, like nobody knows is even though she has a totally different arm. Covered it up. Yeah. No, I know. I know. I mean it's, it's yeah. I mean, nobody knows she's the wrong person, right? Yeah. And it's like, well, she's an outsider and nobody knows her that well, but that would have been an interesting moment for Tony tweak, to, for example, because he spent a lot of time with her. Super chatty. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Twenty could've notice. That's true. But caring gillen's performance in this movie's really. She's a veal up stir in this movie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like she carried me like. For being sort of tertiary character in, in a secondary film franchise, she carries a lot of the weight in this one, she's so funny during that football game. And then, and then later when she delivers the line that says that he won't let me. She said trapped in her life. Yeah. It's sort of breaks your heart at the same time. Be think. Yes. Shooter. That's hard acting under all of that prosthetics. Yeah. All of that, whatever the hell is going on with her. She's got act is two different people neither of whom have very likable, but in different ways like how, how did you character progress? Probably don't kill on sight is pretty much as far as she's gone, which is. But she doesn't really joined it. What was your guys feeling on on hulk in this movie? I like Brady Hoke. I missed I missed smash him book, but seeing flow. Like I wanted help to really just go to town on something. And we really miss we miss his transition. I mean he's just there already, and it's kind of weird because it seems like there was so much left from the previous movie emotionally about between him and the whole that. It's all it's just like, yeah, that's all just like. Yeah. That happens. And I think there was, I think I've read an interview where the about that. And, and I mean and you know again they can't do everything in a. Movie that's already three hours nine minutes long so little there where like you know, they're sitting at the diner with these gigantic plates of food. I love. I mean so I-. John you and probably you probably both know the comics expanded the me like there's like it's kinda like a Grayhawk thing. Right. Like isn't Grayhawk cuts? No, because. Teenage you'll. He's all go driven. He's smart. He's smart. But he's more Mr. Heidi's and. This is like an integrated as not banner at all. But there have been instances in the comic book definitely where they've had banner be. The brains in the brunt of the same thing. I did not just the brains. It's like an integrated whole of a character like right? He's got like banners, meek Meakin demure at times when the integrated sort of hook characters off more confident. He's more confident. Yeah. True. I guess some elements but not all I love the favorites with him is still the scene, where when they go back in time, and he's like they're like smash stuff on the way taxi. Yeah. Was really great. Also like the stairs. Yes. His dad vists like he's still wearing clothes. Some of the. Got uniforms, that they put smart, Hawkin bernie'll lookin jumpsuit that? He's okay with the purple yet. Yeah. Yeah. I liked it. He's like still smart. But. Still kind of screwed up the. Time travel device. Just a good gag. Yeah. I mean, that was I don't feel like I feel like that doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean, I guess Tony explanation is like the best you could probably do with time. Time time went through him. Sure that works. But okay, that's fine. And banners reaction to time travel. That's what. Right. Hey. Previous batter wouldn't have done that. But hulk banner's like just going through compare that compare that age of time raise like Tony Tony. No, no, no. This one's like look at work. I consider this a win. Yeah. We get some characters. Get more screen time here than in the previous. Movie, including a couple of people get screen time that didn't didn't even appear in the first INFINITI war movie likes got laying and Clint. I was a little surprised at how much Scott got in this one. I wonder and that was the thing. I wonder going in was how much Scott being stuck in the quantum realm at the end of man. And the wasp was gonna come into play here. I had a strong suspicion that that was going to hit it all. And it did turn out to be, although I thought it was. Yeah. I, I, I bet wrong in that. I thought it was not going to be. But clearly, it did not did not definitively answer my question which was I, I assume not. But part of me had wondered if being stuck in the quantum realm if he had been supposed to be snapped and wasn't because he was like essentially someplace. Yeah. On findable and that going to be the key. I yeah. Some kind of thing. Right. Like brian. Shield against animals rather than being the keys traveling back. But when I saw the movie they. His mom basically time travel, like she was in there for how long her time not long hopes mom, sorry hopes. Mother-in-law whatever. Cat woman was in there for how long time for like every, I think, yeah, I thought it was less. I don't know. I thought it was mostly the same. But maybe but it's I think the whole, you know, like it's the it's the perfect macguffin thing because if it's unpredictable, it could do anything unless you invented do key. Tony. And then and then you can put some predictability around. Right. Right. Yeah. So tony. Kony been saving up all those being power juices, for just just a good moment. I guess, you know, just got they're going to have to rely on cheery from now on also that. Yeah. Kind of an interesting question, which is the where the MC you goes after this. I I'm for one m really glad that. So they've described that, like the next Spiderman movies, kind of a coda in the same way that like Iran was for the phase one or two. I can't remember so you have the big clemency event. And then you still have kind of like the locations, although I loved, I thought this is as many other people did, like how many are there like now a bunch of kids, who were like five years older than their counting their classmates. No, that's the whole thing about my it's like the definitive stones a wish. Everything's back to whatever it should it be. But it is in the future, like I think they like it is technically in twenty twenty three now, so or whatever twenty might take. Did all of those people know that the other people had been missing all that time? Yeah. Yeah, we'll twenty definitely did Tony when you hugs hugs Peter. He's, he's. That's real. Yeah. Tony Tony had been on this side of the, the events that caused it to happen. It wasn't clear to me that people that fight of events, the people that got EBay or the rest of the world. Well, the, the well no Peterson Peter, he didn't know that. I mean, he didn't know himself because he just like he went to sleep woke up right? And but on your stream said five years has passed when he's when he sees Ned to it seems like they know they've been on. It's confusing. Oh. I'm assuming that the there's so many problems with that part of it like logical problems that doesn't bear the real. I will say this the real issue, I think that they come down to is that they wanted to give really only one reason that they don't just go back and try to undo things like in a different way, which is Tony, how Gordon and they don't they don't want to subject that which is at the one hand, very Tony stark and at the other hand like there, there are billions of lifeforms at risk here. We're trading them for, you know, one person. Yeah, but he's the guy that makes a fun guy. Guy who knows Catholic, gut, it probably would have kept his promise. But yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I think that, that they also more minutes. The other thing is given the rules of the Univer, given the rules of time travel, as they set them up if they did that weren't they just creating another parallel universe go live in that parallel universe. But then, but then there would still be one where everybody would be well, yeah, you can't fix all the universes. I know I want to make an omelet you gotta break some universes. Not even not even with the finished stones. But I was gonna say, I think they also from a meta perspective from writing perspective. They wanted Tony to have that growth, too, right? Wanted to set out in a way that me felt like because that was the lead in the very first thing Infinity war is running pepper talking about having a kid, and they even mentioned the naming her Morgan and all of that. So, like I think they wanted to leave that as a legacy for Tony. I think they spend, I sort of appreciate it. And I, I found it weird when I was watching it first time. When the proto would have at the event just pull up to Tony's lake house. We spend a lot of time with Tony in his kids, just one on one, which I think is great because it gives Tony a lot of. You get to see his growth. You get to see him hanging out with his kid, and he's really good dad. Here's a great dead. Yeah. I mean I mean all of his all his like that. Yeah. That's it servic cracks. It makes two people have. Being worn down, and she lives. Reaction to right. Like like he's still has the basic famous. But it's all being like e-voting bye. Bye love. And it's just so much action that it's not a he's not a YouTube that who's like taking her toys away, and then film air. No, no, no anyway, turning into your other podcast. But, but it struck me as a little bit weird. Pepe wasn't around that much. Yeah. Some not unwelcome because frankly Paltrow cut it turns out these days, but. A little weird. It felt like I wasn't sure that she was alive for a little bit offscreen that long that I'm like, maybe wonder if they were very limited knee in the time they had for her. But maybe because he does say he tells Morgan that have built this helmet or built suit basically view, mum. But he doesn't even say like it's not clear to me at that moment that is in fact pepper. Yeah, it is a little. Yeah. I think I didn't. But I didn't consider that. I know I I'm with guy shoes in the movie. Yeah. Yeah. Issues in the movie, but it would have been hilarious. If he was with the blonde lady from the first one. Really? On your experience. That would also be pretty Tony. Is he just looks up with what's the actress, sorry, it's a famous Leslie's bit exactly? Yeah. That would have been a cameo now, now going, we sort of branched off into our own parallel universe there. But I was just talking about the, the future of the after this, which is kind of an interesting state, so we have at least one, we have at least one case where a mantle has definitively been handed down, which is saying, I'm becoming captain America. But it seems like he's going to the streaming jazz series. Right. I would not say that he would he may not have. I'm sure he will appear, if there is a future movie, but I'm not certainly wouldn't rule it out. And I don't think it'll be a captain America movie necessarily, I think they're not for few years, they need to let you know leads to change. For bit. Yes. Go him up as a on the TV Sam needs to get a chance to, to grow to get that role to dissociate that from the Chris Evans cap. That's the biggest challenge that, that Marvel's can have now is even with so many of these characters who were not necessarily like household name characters. There is so much tied up in their identities. Now that like I've sure marvel I'm sure there's a part of marvel that worries like this was this was like our big one not we're not going to do fine. But like we're never gonna hit that same, right? Like about a money on this. And the fact that they're going to they're going to do the attorneys, which nobody knows why we're great when the in humans, they tried another. Nobody knows. Well, yeah. I mean, they were originally going to do that as a movie, and then they did the terrible TV series, you know, run by the guy who I think I hope they have learned to never trust again, because he also did iron fist. But, but the challenge is, how do you build up a new roster of characters? Again, iron, Dan himself was not a big character when they launched this like interactive, but he's bigger than the journals. Sure. Absolutely. You could wear the ironman, shale had t shirt and people would basically get it. But there's a question of what characters are left that are I mean, aside for setting aside, all the stuff they just acquired from FOX, which has definitely more. I mean fantastic four next men definitely have way more name brand recognition. But yeah, they're gonna start after I think they're not take a breather for like phase. And then stepping in the they'll get there. But I think it will be a little while. And there's just whether going to they're doing I mean, they still have the spider man of doctor strange. They have captain marvel presumably kept more. They can do another captain, marvel movie announced when yet. Right. But I don't think so. But I think it's, it's heavily. We will enough did well enough financial. That I would think that the black widow, I believe is also that's actually doing which leads me to other like visit a Sikh. Is it a prequel? Or is it is she coming back, somehow I think it's got to be a prequel and I'm very upset with the way that they dealt with that character I have mixed. Yeah, I think so, too, and I wonder. Like, I think it'd be a great opportunity to say that was this girl, I've maybe just sort of just let's look at the visual of injuries. Hawkeye is everybody's lease save adventure. Right. But he ultimately goes to this. Arc gets all angry. Stoats motoring people. And we have about a little ten fifteen minutes with zero in here. Sort of redeemed. Yeah. Yeah. Actually man, we should have just done a whole episode sometime. That's member. Feedstuff Hawkeye, five hell. Now, you have this movie. Exactly. Yeah. Well he was good. But anyway. Nyland called Japan. Okay. We could just on this for too long. Sorry. No that just save a good joke for when we actually do it. Dies to service history. Yeah, yeah, I'm not totally sure what hurric- is except from coming from. Well, we're supposed to believe like murderous spy lady, but immediately women see her. She's mothering banner as the hulk. Yeah. She's she's nurturing banner a lot. She is supportive of Clint when he gets taken over by lucky. She gets the worst service of banner gets good arc like he integrates his angry side with his nerdy side. Yes. Cap and have well established Rx that it for the vigilant ventures. Yeah. All of them for. She also gets thorough art. Yes, it's not his accent over. Yeah. Let me put this way. I think I one hundred percent agree with you. I don't think they did a very good job with her and part of it, I think, is they never really fleshed out her character background. They try honestly as the article I was reading about this suggested like in some ways age of drawn though it is the way it treats are is not great. It has the most about her in it of movies, which is saying something. So to me, part of the big failing for it is that we never got a really good conception of, who she was, we get little things, dribbed, and drabbed out there and in watching rewatching winter soldier, especially like she goes from somebody who cap like really is does not trust to, like, basically, they have like an almost like sibling like relationship and, and this. It's the best. Is not having, and this is what I think I'm guessing the prequel address is kind of the double agent life that she lived because we get that alluded to, like Redford says one point must get tricky being double agent, that never really goes away or whatever. But we don't really know anything about it. How did you go from the KGB to working for she'll like it doesn't make much sense? And so, I think do we know who's doing that movie yet I don't I saw away? I would think that like if the Rousseau's would go back to doing that, that winter soldier style. I mean, winter soldier style movie about her could be good. But I mean it may give it to women fighting. Yeah. Yeah. I just that it's just that I think that vibe works through wealth would were one hundred percents that give it to a woman, I has a director female director, Cate Shortland attached to it. I assume I think I kind of remember hearing that, that she was attached the black widow movie, so I think that's real. Yeah. There is a report on that from last two why. So, yeah. I think that's the villain that what you Tomic blunt. Yeah. I could do lots of remedial that if they really good standalone movie, but I'm not like I'm guessing it would totally fix the, the way that they treat her. But it provides a big opportunity to kind of flesh out, her character, and had that make sense because where you have both. I liked the assessment somewhere. I think it might have been in the interview with writers in the New York Times, which is really good. And you definitely read it. They talk about how the progression goes from Tony being selfish to selfless. Over the course of all these movies and calf moving from selfless to sort of, I think they describe it as an enlightened self interest rate like he's willing to finally step back and say, yeah, I'm going to take something for myself. And I think that. Natasha has the possibility of having that a similar sort of arc from going from somebody who doesn't trust anybody. And who is portraying everybody to being genuine and carrying about another person? And I do think I come down kind of in the middle on the way they treat her care, not in the way they treat her character, but the decision that gets made with ultimate ultimately sacrificing yourself because I don't believe, you know, agree that servicing. Hawkeye story is not the best look, but the same time it should not be purely the domain of men, disaster, vice themselves and have hurric- deaths like they're you know, and, but it was it was both women went over that cliff. I agree. I agree. And I I'm not saying that it's the I'm not trying to defend all of that decision. But I think that was a tough. They were both the strong independent, because I think if I think if Hawkeye had been the one instead I'm not sure that would have been it wouldn't have been problematic. Maybe but I think they should've sent different people. Yeah. I think it would have been boring, Hawkeye gone over just to get his family back. Nobody gets anything out of that. Other than we rendered is. Oh. Oh, yeah. I mean, the whole. Yeah. Okay. That whole thing was I liked it. I liked the tension between. Net and Hawkeye. But I did not like the way it was resolved. I liked it. They fought each other for who's going to go over the cliff. That was awesome. Right. Because they clearly Levin respect each other. They live. That's, that's the whole point of like somebody has to give somebody up but they straight any string that out fairly. Well, yes. Joined that couple of moments where it could have gone. Either way, I enjoyed the choreography on that. If not be Mia binded, right. Yes. Exactly. But they should have at least sent cap to their point at one point. So you could be like red skull, what are you doing? I don't know. Why did they try beating them up? It seems like step. One is beat that he doesn't have. He doesn't have this the stone. I mean, that's he just he just tells them what the rules are. Trick where they like, what if we throw you over that was fine? You just needed eighth. So, like didn't matter if you really love them. There's no, we didn't actually put in check some code for that even weird. Hawkeye like the, the Hawkeye from the comic books, even if that guy had did not have the stone, and it never would have help he would have stuck in our weight him just fun. It's true because why not? Yes. Agree with the vets-go face. Guess we'll get narrow just because I got nothing else to do. Well he should've known who he was anyway. But the thing that's kind of weird about that logic is that nebula was going to kill herself. And I'm sorry, good. More was going to kill herself in order to try and take because, because, you know, Thanos was killing her, and she was going to try and kill herself in order to take that away from him, so that he wouldn't be sacrificing the thing that he loved the most, and yet, these two are competing over, which will try to kill yourselves. So it doesn't given that seems a little weird but. They're different expectations for their emotions. Anyway. I think. Good forty five minutes woman for two nights out. Yeah, we're going to get back into this. That's for sure. But we are now going to conclude this week's episode because, you know, it's been a while we've talked about this lawn. So we have to those left in the season of ERO and they begin next week with our obligatory, Bruce Springsteen title for the penultimate episode living proof, and then we have one file up. So you have saved this city and, you know, we'll probably because we've done this before, and I think it tends to be fun. I think we'll probably do a live cast of the finale when we record. Just because it's a kick, it's nice to have people drop into the chat room, and we can sort of do that live, so two weeks. Look for that. And I think for the final season, we should von some kind of pool to try to figure out what the boost drinking titles, Ponente. Sort of money on this. Well, we'll give away one of teachers. Yeah. Are you going to give them? The shirt, it's just a, it's a plain white t shirt assured off, guys. You don't trust me to get you just don't trust me. I feel like I feel like. In the little icon and Skype, it looks like a gray gray t shirt for people are lying. That's it reading reading along at home. That's what's happening. All right. Well, we shall bring this episode, and then and all I have to think my co hosts, John, thanks for being near tenth avenue freeze out. That's a good one unlikely. But. Guy english. Always a pleasure was a leader. I don't know what's happening anymore. There's been seeing okay. Okay. And dancing in the dark Scott, my name. Thank you, all for reading along with us. I hope you enjoyed this episode. And if you listen to the discussion by endgame hope you enjoy the two and if not. Yeah. Sorry. Whatever. Will be back this week, this fourteen million ways. This could have gone better. You're still, you're still biff to. Thank you all for reading along with us, and we will see you next week.

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