Discovering Death: The Murder of Kenny Thomas Jr.
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It just doesn't make sense. Hey guys, welcome to the first degree the true crime podcast that you might end up on. My name is Jack Vanik. I'm sitting across from Alexis linkletter next. Billy johnson. And today is a special day because we have our first degree connection in studio with us today, and he might be my favorite person in the entire world. Mr. Jared, Monaco, great to be here on time listener. On time listeners time caller longtime producer. Jared also produces our podcast that's listening and he's kind of the fourth silent member of the first degree crew. He is he is our group chat. We added him when we're at crime con- like because we're trying to figure out what we're doing over the weekend. And like meeting up, and whatever, and now he's stuck in our. It's a huge honor chat on silent, we won't be offended do so we got back from crime con-. Yeah. She, we have a little crime con recap. I think we should number one. I'm surprised that. Billy hung out with us most of the time because a lot most of well, obviously, my other podcast partner. Paul halls was was hosting the event and also had armed guards with him and things. So we have to best time. We went out one night, Paul was there. We were there we were on a roof roof, Catan roof in New Orleans is this real moment, where we were surrounded by literally other crime podcasters the entire. Yeah, it was so fun. So who was there? I have to say. Well, I who is a crime, con know who was that who is when we were drinking that night earns cafe. The captain was there. Garage generation wise. Justin from generation y you are the best. I had like he's the nicest guy. No, it's so funny. I think the true crime world is very interesting because it feels like we're in high school. There's a lot of drama happening between podcasts there might be some love, if there's clamming between clicks. It's a very fun, little world that I'm glad to be a part of who else do we hang out with? You got to tear it. We had a great night out with tear knew. All. Much fun. We met Deborah new, all her mom, so nice we watch. Dateline with the dateline crew, we dateline party, but that was great and stood behind me, and Josh Mankiewicz would pull me in each time. And give me like the inside scoop on what was going on the screen, which is actually really great really recording. Nancy grace and she caught me in waved, and I posted an excellent video on my Instagram story. It was amazing way. Can we talk about Nancy Grace's outfit? It was. Avant-garde. She had a Caparo musher like with cow. That were like there was like, four inches of skin between the leggings and the boots, and it was in her hair was up in like a beehive. It looked perfect for crime. Con honestly it was it was it was punk rock. She like she was very punk punk-rock, she's true crime punk rock at everybody at crime, con out of any convention, I've ever been to, you know, you go to always. Tell people crime con is like Comecon for true crime, Comecon is often kind of shit show. It's to so many people there. And it's so everybody's kind of pushing each other and everything. These are the nicest people of crime. Con everybody that listeners the came to us that took pictures with us. And the funny thing about the picture taking was is that, you know, we had a lot of fans come up to take pictures. We had a lot of people that were going to check out our swag. We had very cool swag, which will get Ashra pictures. And thank you, Jack for that, you're all March clean over here, and the funny thing is, is that we would all we would all get together with whatever listener. And then Jared. Would take the photo. So we were feeling at every other podcast or was feeling like a rockstar. Meanwhile, Jared is an actual for rocks. Wait a second. Are you Jared of the main in, then people were taking pictures of Jared, and he hijacked are our spotlight? These people didn't know that, like, you know, two thousand kids are singing Jared songs every night, Jack rented ability of the airport, and you're the first person that we saw when we got there, and it was so funny because I mean, I've only hung out with you in this setting down recording, and you're totally like you were in rockstar monthly that whole weekend. It was really fun to watch from my perspective. I, I didn't know what to expect thought. It was awesome. Billy was the rock star. He was like the Justin that the Goth Justin Timberlake. Yeah. Crime con-. I'll take that. And we were like the rest of and say, I was sure happy. I was Joey. I was JC JC. No, we were like joing. Chris kirkpatrick? Oh my God. That's what I meant when I said, how I was. I do a secret insiders presentation. And doctor Henry Lee was like showed up at my presentation, which was actually pretty fantastic. If you guys know who Henry Lee is and was basically, my from my hype man for five minutes. When he went up and did a bunch of jokes like warming up for about. It was it was. It was so fucking great. Yeah. It was so weird surreal. Yeah, the guy's got jokes. He's got the whole true crime world is just so so interesting to me. And I always great the drama. You know what I think tickets went on sale this week for next year? So we don't have our discount code yet. Let's hope it's degree twenty. Yeah. It's probably degree twenty. So just start using that. Yeah. Orlando here we come. Let's our holiday happy national eaten Oreo. Let me tell you about this. If you don't think it crime could be connected with Orioles think again. This is really delighted Billy Johnson. That's right. The Omaha world herald reported that Timothy, wills Lee, and this is from the from a crime online. Who was at number. They were right across from us. That was where I was born as aggressive grits. This guy was there. No, he wasn't there. The guy wasn't there twenty four member of the of some squadron. He was an airman he killed his girlfriend by smothering her to death while they sat and watched a television show on a laptop in her dorm room. Wills Lee, reportedly counted, to three before wrapping his arm around, her shoulder and placing her in a headlock. He then switched arms and choked at a death. This guy's a fricking bastard. But here's what happened after reportedly killing her, wills Lee grabbed a pack of Oreo cookies and Dillard's dorm room and fled the scene. So he was actually being called the Oriole killer, and this was actually pretty recently a couple years ago. Okay. Well, that's enough of that. All right. Well, turn down your lights. Turn up your anxiety because it's your time to cry. There is a specific moment in your life. When you learn what death is when you're a child, and whether that was through losing your first grandparent, flushing, your pet fish, down your toilet or sitting down next to an empty chair in third grade. We all have a distinct memory of understanding mortality for the very first time today's case will bring us back to that realization of how precious and uncertain life is for all of us in this week, we will learn how a seemingly happy and loving family was not what they seemed on the surface, and we will look into what exactly constitutes labeling someone as insane. So Jared today's case is set in Phoenix, and I've lived in this area of Phoenix, you're from this area of Phoenix. What was it like growing up there? I was born and raised. Born and Phoenix proper grew up on the west side of town. And then moving to the east valley's we lived in Chandler. I mean, you know, media talk about Jaylen all the time, but it was quiet and it was simple. It was very suburban and really the kind of standard being a kid story, I guess, for everybody played sports have a lot of friends in the neighborhood made a lot of friends through my parents. They sold real estate so families coming into Phoenix. They were selling houses to usually at kids, so I make friends with their kids, and then we'd all end up playing sports together. Intramural stuff. That's how I ended up meeting Kenny from the story. So. So. Today's case starts essentially, as how many of these true crime cases start with a couple who fell in love. Jerry tooth men was born in Carlsbad New Mexico. And she was the youngest of four children, her mom worked as a lawyer, her father was a local mind supervisor in, they all belong to their local country club. Ken, Thomas was when you're older and was introduced Jerry by his sister, when they were in the seventh grade a few years later, Jerry sat behind Ken in chemistry class. He was seventeen working as at a pizza place. And she was a sixteen year old honor student, he asked her out as friends, quote unquote, and then a romance blossomed, he said she was fun. She was a blast. She could play like a kid. She had a fire in a spirit and an independence that always attracted me. We spent a lot of time laughing. So Kevin Jerry got married in nineteen eighty and they went to the Caribbean for their honeymoon the next year. Jerry, graduated from New Mexico state university with a degree in marketing and started a fifteen year career in real estate at this point, Ken dropped out of college to take a job AT and T and the years that followed took them both to Phoenix Arizona in Albuquerque. Albuquerque New Mexico, like every couple, they endured the highs and lows of marriage, but the problems kept on coming in the form of layoffs, and losing their home. They ended up separating and then ultimately reconciled. In nineteen ninety eight the couple was on the verge of divorcing. When Ken decided, let's give this one more shot, and it was during this reconciliation the jury gets pregnant with Ken junior, Ken senior, he always wanted to be a dad. He cuts the umbilical cord for a while. Everything's going good. But then, soon the highs and lows come back and Jerry, who's the former country girl in college graduates, accessible, real estate agent. And the girl Ken fell in love with was introduced to meth and it sucked her in. So we had these highs and lows of sobriety. She would get sober than she would fall off. She would get sober shoot fall off six months clean, then falling off the wagon. He really wanted the marriage to work and the family to stay together. So he really tried to help and get her clean. So Jared, tell us about meeting Kenny. I mean, in this guys, we have to differentiate, there's a Ken senior in Kenny junior, so we're gonna go with Ken and Kenny. Yeah. So tell us under what circumstances, did you meet him? Yes. So I, I knew him as Kenny and we didn't we actually didn't go to school together. We were on a basketball team together. So we were on like an intramural sports league. And I think I was in fourth grade when all of this happened in. So the coach for my basketball team with my mom, she was my mom, my dad, so, like they like co coached, this bashful. Didn't KENNY'S didn't can coach a year as well. He did. So I actually played multiple years with with him. But came. So we had like this little group of little friends will basketball and through this, and we all would play sports together. We'd go from one season to the next. And so, yeah, it would be I would see him at at practice. I would see him we had, like little events, sometimes where the families get together we'd have game day, obviously, and my mom was babysitting the time my parents will real estate, so she would babysit and there were times where he would just come over to babysit. So he'd be at my house. I think he was about a year younger than I was so. I think he looked up to me a little bit. And we would always hang out new come over. What would you guys do? I remember I have like specific memories of, of being in the backyard playing around in the backyard as Phoenix hot. Remember being summertime. We had like a kiddie pool, so I remember being like in this little tiny pool above ground pool. And playing basketball upfront. I was kind of like my biggest that's how I knew him. Yeah. So, right. This little buds. So that means your parents knew Jerry, and Ken. So do you what have they said? I mean, I'm sure they know that you are doing the podcast. Yeah. I mean, what have they said about about them as people at that time? I always remember so same profession. My parents, my mom at the time with a real estate agent, so was his mom. And sure there was some bonding over that. And I just remember her saying that. They were nice people who really normal people and they got along. And we were close enough where they would let her watch their kid. And you know, it was it was just a normal and friendship. Yeah. So that the drug I mean because at this point based on the time line so that the drug problem had started. Right. So that was not evidence. At this time. No, not your parents and not to fourth grade zero not at this time at all. And I think it wasn't until later on that maybe my mom's very perceptive person, and I think she started to pick up on, I think she thought maybe there was like alcohol long these talking about it. So but as you as a little kid, it's so funny, when you know, when you're younger and other people's parents, there might be like things going on. But as a kid, you don't notice any of it at all your dislike though. There's another adult, they're just as perfect as my parents are, like, is that how you perceived we truck bomb. Yeah. You trust. At all Stewart. Just parents, there was this kid's parents. Yeah. You'd never looked at it like there could be anything outside of normal. Just the same thing. It's summertime. The humidity is creeping in. 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No frizz line is silicon parabens sulfate and cruelty free, which is one of the things that I absolutely love about living proof. So ditch the frizz and make the switch to link proof today by visiting living proof dot com slash I and use promo code I for twenty percent off any of their no, I products again. That's living proof dot com slash I use promo code verse for twenty percent off on either no his products. A couple of managers say together as Ken tried to help Jerry stay clean in both of them co parented their son, and Ken senior did. So diligently Jerry's parenting, was spotty because she would become negligent, when she had her bouts of succumbing to her addiction, but she was a great mom when she wasn't involved in drugs in this is such, it's so fascinating because it's like you can be the best mom, but it is such an overpowering force when you are grappling with an addiction. So can try desperately to stick it out. But Jerry's behavior was becoming very Roddick escalating, and eventually can couldn't take it anymore. And he filed for divorce from the woman, he still called and considered to be the love of his life, and it is different things, you can still love someone and just be like this isn't healthy. Absolutely. You know, so along and sometimes violent custody battle between Jerry and Ken. Ensued. And in court during a divorce proceeding? A lot of the struggles Jerry was grappling with sort of came to the surface for all to see. It turned out that Jerry had been hospitalized at least three times since nineteen Ninety-three for detox from method phetamine abuse and stabilization of her mental health disorders which included paranoid schizophrenia, and we all know drugs, like meth, exacerbate symptoms of such mental illnesses. Ken senior said, I cannot emphasize how quickly and totally meth can destroy you and your family. She stops coming home at night, or she'd, come home at obsess about random things in once Jerry actually pulled out a gun at the airport, and then she disappeared with Kenny for two weeks, because someone was quote unquote after her. So she's dealing here with psychosis. Induced by methamphetamine. Exacerbated obviously, by your schizophrenia. So jury at this point had also convinced herself that Ken was quote, one of the bad people, and she thought that he was pumping gas through these little pin holes in their acoustic ceiling to take over their minds. And she claimed to see hieroglyphics on, on her toilet, and she wants moved from apartment to apartment to avoid, quote, being listened to and at one point, Jerry told Ken that he had sold her their son to the devil. She took apart appliances like the microwave. She took apart the sprinkler systems. She felt that if she had reassembled them and they worked, right? That meant the government had not put any listening devices inside them. So there's clearly a lot of stuff going, not an engineer. So putting those back together as a huge challenge apologised broke. Right. So, and then believe them believe that the government was aggravated or paranoia. Right. We are so savvy, can you imagine the horror of your partner who loves you who still loves you who's just trying to do everything to be, Dan, you the best thing for you because like she's got schizophrenia, and she's not treating it and she's doing drugs, like it's got to be just devastated, though, so frustrating so so so upset and feeling so helpless about, and she wants disappeared with Kenny when Ken was in the shower and goes to a neighbor's house so cans in the shower, he comes out of the shower, they're not there. And she goes to the neighbor's house. And she begs the neighbor to protect her, and, and Kenny, because she said a Colt was after them. Another time. She actually verbally attacked the ice cream lady, and accused her putting drugs in the ice cream and trying to take over the minds of the children. So it was the schizophrenia and then her diction she actually went through rehab five times. But obviously she kept on going back. And when this is all happening. Jared, you your mom never saw any of this behavior, because obviously this. She wasn't containing this just your own home. She was attacking an ice cream man. She went over a neighbor's house, claiming about the colts like it was going beyond the home thing. And you didn't your mom never saw on you of this happening. Right. No. And like I was saying I just talked to my mom today. Yeah. On the phone because I was trying to refresh on some of this stuff and you know, in her opinion, she just said that Jerry was most likely in Oklahoma. Yeah. And that was the extent of, of what even this morning. She thought that right? You didn't really she does didn't know the ins and outs of this case that of we're talking about the late ninety s and even though meth really got big and the south in the south west Ryan, late nineties, that's before it really exploded. And particularly split in Phoenix meth meth had a problem in Phoenix did. But that was like the early two thousands. Yeah. Well, I mean I mean, I'm nine I don't remember I to me, it was just think that she was like, playing around, even if you saw some and, you know, when I really think about it. I definitely saw way more of his of Ken, is dad the night, saw his mom, and I'm good reason for that. Bright. So. When Jerry was sober, none of this happened. And maybe that's what if when she was around maybe you're seeing sobre her to, and that's probably when she was entrusted with, with little county county on 'cause Ken seem to be kind of in control in D was, I don't think, in a shitty way in like he was probably over parenting, when she was having her bouts of, obviously, succumbing to her addiction. And then when she was fine. He it was his love of his life of it again, and trusting her and, and she was probably more apparent in present bright. And even when she was in an inpatient rehab, Ken senior was committed to keeping them together. And he would take any to visit her every single day. So he's being a good parent trying to keep the good husbands good husband and he was super worried that jury was going to kill herself. And at one point, he said, my worst fear was having to explain to Kenny why his mother killed her why his mother killed herself. And in the midst of the back and forth with the. Divorce and all the chaos on August second of that year. A judge awarded emergency temporary custody of Kenny junior to consider after he challenged his wife's capability as a parent, and according to this petition Ken stated, quote, Jerry has a severe history of mental illness, as well as substance abuse, so Ken senior was ultimate, ultimately awarded custody of county junior. But the emergency custody only lasted for ten days and on August twelfth Jerry was awarded primary custody after both parties reached a settlement in the dispute. The settlement called for canape Kenny up for school every day and return him to his mother at eight pm. Back in the not back in the day. I mean this was twenty years ago, ninety seven so twenty three twenty three years ago. Do you think that like if this was happening today? Do you think that the mom would be awarded custody a- knowing that she had fame? She's been to rehab. I don't many times we don't know what was we. We can't tell what was present potentially presented to the judge. And how she was presenting herself to the judge also was being presented, but it's also not necessarily and we also know that Ken seems like he's, you know, both parties reached the settlement here. So, you know, when this is the person that's the love of your life, the father of your the mother of your child, and she seems like she's better, you know, she, obviously, she do this court gate was coming up. She's probably gotten her stuff together. She's acting like the old the old Jerry. And we'll, we'll right. And you have to remember to it's like he goes to school. One two kids go to school. Seven o'clock, they get picked up at three. He's got him until eight and then it's like great. You just have to go sleep at your mom's and then you're, I know where you are. I've got you the other hours you're awake in. It's kind of like enough to be like I could take temperature everyday to see how you're doing I can monitor, whether she's taking care of you. I can monitor your or you being nourished. Are you sleeping are you healthy? And I think for him he didn't want to exacerbate the anger. She was having at him by probably fighting it bright and I will say as a child of divorce the push poll of this is miserable for the children in miserable for the parents, because they're going through essentially break-up, that's like ego driven and all these things in generally the children are obviously, at the forefront. But they're sometimes more objects than than. The focus of where the best interest should be. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's like a lot of this happened in my childhood, where it's like CPS was visiting it was horrible. It was horrible. And, you know, I get it it's painful for each party. You know, but I wish there was a better way 'cause horrible. And I'm sure it can senior in this circumstance was just trying to make it as painless as possible like she seems like she's fine. Let's just make it as easy as it can be for Kenny and. Not try to complicate things. Exactly. And I'm sure I mean, Ken senior seemed like a very level headed dude who was just trying to like do the best thing, but also not upset everybody. Right. So as we've said, even though they were divorcing in marriage is falling apart, Ken senior wasn't exactly trying to take Kenny away from his mother. We said this before she was a good mom when she was clean and can was struggling with the fact that he was also losing the love of his life. So he's going through what's essentially break up and dealing with all this. But the main focus for Ken was that Kenny junior was eight years old at an incredibly impressionable age, and he really his focus was protecting him even if that meant sacrificing love of his life in his life. So what can was asking for. As, as far as a culmination of the divorce was fifty percent of the time. And he just wanted one percent more so that if she felt back into her worst drug habits and into those horrible moments he could protect Kenny junior, if necessary until she got better. But when Jerry heard this and realize that this is what can senior was fighting for. She perceived as differently and she took this as a job, took it very personally interminably as a threat, of course, like you know, children. They're the most important thing, once people have them so I can understand. But. So she proceeded as Ken was trying to take or hurt her or take their son away from her, and she became really hostile towards him. And in retaliation of learning this she took out a restraining order against Ken senior, and accused him of hitting her. So this is getting bad and we've seen this a lot of times. So at this point, Kenan Jerry, we're still married. But their divorce was reaching a point, it was nearing conclusion, so the stakes were getting really high where like soon, whatever terms were set we're going to be sentenced Joan. So final custody was under consideration of a mediator with the conciliation services office before granting, a final divorce decree Jerry, Thomas had undergone a battery of drug tests in August of nineteen Ninety-six under court orders. She tested negative on August sixteenth, but didn't submit to testing on either August twenty first or August, when he third claiming that she didn't have enough money for the twenty dollar fee for each test. But it sounds like she was stalling to me. But then she tested negative on August twenty seventh. While this is going on the back and forth, custody pushing pullover Kennedy junior persisted for months, almost cyclically, they would fight over him call, you know how all these disputes and then reconcile, and then things were seemingly normal for their divorce situation in the routine remained relatively consistent in that Ken senior steadfastly, picked his son up from school every day. So we can spend time with them before bringing him up to Jerry's at eight PM, and he also coaches basketball team as you mentioned with Charrette here to get extra time with his son wherever he cut and eventually, Jerry retaliates to the moves that she perceives Ken to be making and even though can wasn't abusive, she took out this restraining order out of spite because she was so angry about the fifty one percent custody situation that can had over Kenny so can refuse to stop picking up from school. But to accommodate the restraining murder, the jury filed he would drop county off at a. Store on the corner, near the home and watch him walk to his mom's to ensure that he was saved. So he was who's watching little Kenny. He wasn't just dropping him off and leaving. So was she trying to stop this, picking up from school thing thinking that he wouldn't be able to drive him home? I guess because that's what it's like oh, you can't come within however many feet. Yeah. And she's like, Jesse can't pick them up, and he's like, Nope gonna yeah. No. She's like watch him walking flexing. The restraining order. So at this point juries, she's in a bad place. She had just lost her car. She's behind on her rent. She can't pair bills and recently she'd been spotted in the town's stumbling around drunk and a few days before that she had gone to a local restaurant got so drunk that she passed out in one of the boots, and this tumultuous back and forth and the custody battle, and the restraining order and shuffling, Kenny around. It went on for a good six months. Yeah. Went on for a while as it does. So Jared, your family, your mom and dad coached the basketball team. But when you're they didn't. And then KENNY'S dead. Yes. That would that would have been probably the most time spent around him in his family. Because every time we go to practice it would be or a game or whatever it would be his dad running the show and I remember having a lot of fun on that team as you would being nine years old playing a sport that you probably not very good at. And so there's certainly a bond that we both had back then it was just, I remember it being so light hearted and so simple. You know. And, and always thought that everything seemed completely normal, especially with, with the dynamic between him and his dad coaching. You know, it just seemed like they're like your family like my fam- years did me, a lot of when my parents would coach me, you know. Did Kim senior seem like a good dad you did? I mean he they was there was there was nothing. I mean what? What does it say about someone to go out and coach their kids basketball team? I mean that, that in itself is, I think just like something that you do as a parent, if you're trying to get involved with your kid more trying to be a part of their life. So, yeah, I think he, he was a good dad. So we were on our way back from cryan. Con we're on the plane, we get our seeds get a drink. And I look over and what is Lexus doing? She's playing best fiends. So if you haven't heard me talking about best fiends before get ready to have your new favorite game on your mobile phone. So best fans that's friends without the are as a five star rated mobile puzzle game, and is a dictating you can solve thousands of fun, puzzles, and click tons of cute characters. There's an epic storyline that'll keep you engaged, and it's super cute and colorful, and I love a good aesthetic. There are thousands of hours of gameplay. It's easy to learn, but difficult to master. So that means you're using your brain. It's a perfect casual game to play alone or with family and friends, and you can play it on the plane. So join over ninety million downloads globally and get best fiends today. Again, it's a five star rated game and you can get it on the apple app store or Google play. So download best beans. For free. That's friends without the are again, best fiends. That's friends without the are make sure to stick around after this podcast to get the latest headlines from the AP news minute. Hey, everybody, you have to check out this amazing neutral crime podcast. It's called twenty two hours, an American nightmare. It's about a murder that took place in Washington DC, a family and their housekeeper were held hostage for nineteen hours before being killed when the murderer set their mansion on fire. He'll be shocked by what they went through during these nineteen hours and you won't believe how they found the guy I won't ruin anything. But I'll I will say is pizza crust. I'm telling you. It's awesome podcast. One teamed up with award winning journalist from news giant WTO p to put the story together and the podcast is great. Download twenty two hours in an American nightmare now on apple podcasts and podcast one new episodes every Monday. So then on February twenty first. Ken senior went to pick up Kenny junior from school, and he wasn't there and Ken senior hadn't been able to track down a sun for several days, and they became really concerned, he didn't know where he was. So he goes looking for Jerry at her job. And she worked at this local fabric store to see if he could find her, and as it turned out, Jerry's boss, who was the owner of the fabric store revealed that he suspended Jerry because Jerry was using drugs and her eyes looked really off. And she also had some bizarre behavior going on. So she was suspended from this job. And in fact, actually, Jerry had quit the job a week prior after getting into a disagreement with her boss. So can senior is looking for his son Kenny, he can't reach Charing and he can't go to the house because of their restraining order to look for them because. Because he's so concerned with maintaining the fifty one percent custody has, but he's not willing to jeopardize it by knocking on her door. What if she just not answering the phone, what if she's being stubborn and messing with him, like he's not only that she's doing it on purpose to try to get him to violate his restraining order anything. So he calls the cops as you should. So. But what he did do is drive down the street once just passed the house to see. Are they in the yard in like that was probably violation, but he resisted going to the door so but he's like a worried father or like obviously he felt something in his goes wrong. Yes, he did. So he told the police on the phone that he feared his wife was interfering with custodial orders, and that she was afraid she was going to lose her custody altogether, because she had to submit to this final drug test as the divorce proceedings were nearing to an end and Oz. It does your his mind is racing the possibilities. She could've flooded with Kenny somewhere like she had done before she could have hurt herself. She could be on a bender and Kenny could be somewhere alone. The possibilities, he was he was going through were terrifying and all of them are awful. And two police patrolmen. They arrive on the scene around three fifteen pm and their leading by Jerry says your answers, the door is what we're saying and she has to bleeding wrists that were self inflicted injuries. This is really not looking good when the police entered the home to search for Kenny they found him but to the absolute power when the police entered the home to search for Kenny they found him. But to their absolute har-. They found him dead. They found his body. So they found his body, as she was walking out of the house, and she placed an object, which looked like a pillow next to a dumpster, and then she ran, but they caught up to her. She was taken to the local hospital. And then she was transferred to the police department for questioning. So what happened to Kenny? And again, this is a warning about what you're going to hear because we're talking about what happened to child. When they approach Kenny on the scene. He had a cloth belt around his neck, and it was tightened like a news and it had locked the buckle in place. And it was there, even as the boy, awoke and struggled to breathe, it was wrapped so tightly around his neck that it left a pattern. He had actually been strangled to death by his own mother. Jared. What was was this something that you've even understood as a kid when you found out? How did you find out? All right. So this because I'm sitting here with against we're doing this in real time. I did not know these needs. So I'm a kid nine when this happens. And what did your mom did your mama? I'm assuming the, the way months, probably doesn't know any of this stuff either. And I purposely, didn't we have there's an outline? You have for the episode night, purposely didn't want to read it because I wanted to find out but here and that, that is nothing like what I thought had actually happened. You know, I, I was nine when I got the news. So my mom being a mom had told me in the way that, you know, I feel like the old the only way the how do you communicate this to a nine year old in? I knew that she knew it was bad. But, you know, I mean sitting here in hearing those details, but that is like that's like the saddest thing possible. What did you what did she? Well, I remember her taking me. I remember being alone with my mom and her basically. Explaining to me that this kid who I've known for a long time for, I guess, to a nine year old, a long time that I wouldn't see him ever. And I remember saying it in really vague kind of terms like that. And I remember asking questions I remember saying you know what you mean. He comes over and you babysit him like in his his he moving what, what could this possibly like what does it mean and through the line of questioning that, I think any nine year old would probably ask after like a vague explaination like that, you know, she had to tell me eventually just like. But he's, he's dead. And that was something that I just set off a chain reaction. My mind who was like a. Wrestling with that idea at that age was just so overwhelming. I think for me that I it took a long time even as a kid to process that, you know, I, I kept asking questions. Okay. I think I kept saying things like, well you know what does that mean as far as like if I'm not going to see him again, like he's on the team and all this, very, it's very, there's a disconnect happens there, I feel like there was for me. Kids are some tangible like I you know, the team like you don't it's conceptually fury hard to understand even for adults. We have late Jin, we have all these things that help like numb, the confusion of that concept, because it is still the unknown is confusing. And in my family life growing up. My family was religious for sure. And so I think that definitely played a part in in how my mom had broken the news to me, like, you know, he's in a better place and all this stuff. So and he is he the first person that you knew too. Die. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. For me, I had never had to deal with today. Did they ever have the discussion with you about what death was? Did you understand the concept of? Okay. So, so just as an example, going to church as a kid, you realize there, the whole ideas it, because it was like a Christian church, so we had gone to, and it was like the idea of an afterlife. Cop me about death in it. So, you know, so, like I, I had the concept of it in my mind. And you knew what happened was. And what I there was a. Yeah. All that stuff had been constructed in my mind already, like I, there's plenty of imagery and all the stuff that I had read on Sundays and stuff about what that entailed. But for me, this was the first time I actually had to confront actually happening in life, you know, it, it reminds me of the story that my dad would tell me, so, and I go over this in the book, like like my dad was telling me all of these his life story, and he tells me the store that when I was six years old, and he tells me the story about Paul Judd. And Paul Judd was this kid who? Was Bob got off the school bus dropped his lunch box, and then the school butts ran over him at his school back in the fifties. And my dad wasn't at school. That day he was went the next day. And he's like, well, whereas my friend, Paul and this like he's not going to be here anymore. That was my introduction to death and by him saying that and it's like when I started writing it, I realized, like, how much that affected me an affected my whole behavior about what death was because he wasn't religious my father, you know, so he sort of just and I think that's one of the reasons why I hate, you, you always gonna hate murderer so much, but it's just like why really want to catch a lot of them. It's because of that just because it's like I don't I'm not sure what's what's out there after. And that's what's the scariest thing, especially because kids are so conceptual. And so, I guess, physical and the aspect because they're going to keep asking questions. We'll where are they where they go? Where's their body? Where's this? Where's that? And. As an adult trying to explain that to a child, we don't know you know, we don't know what happens after. So how are you supposed to explain that to this little perfect being that an a situation? That's so distraught to begin with homicide is the ultimate crime in Billy's, so this before, and I've said this before and that, like what you're taking away is everything. They've done and everything they're ever going to do in the magnitude of that is unmeasurable and, you know, trying to it's fascinating hearing, because my next question is like, we just heard how you interpreted as child's but hearing, these details now how does it make you feel about, Jerry? Kenny and Ken. And like I mean, Jared, you're, like one of the most kind, compassionate people I've ever met. So, like I'm sure you're having all sorts of like. Like, obviously, the older, you get the more you the more you see your parents, as human beings. I feel like for me and the more I can look at a situation like this and. You know, like even like working with you guys on a lot of these a lot of these cases just listening to what you've been talking about. It's like I understand that this stuff is out there understand this. This isn't like. A one I'm not the only person ever happen to, but coming to terms with the fact that, you know. Something this serious. And this gruesome in happened to somebody that was just a childhood friend of mine. Wrestling with the actual details of it. That's, that's the thing that I don't think that I was like really necessarily prepared for. I had no idea. This wasn't like. My knowledge up until I talked to you about it was, you know, this was a friend of mine, who I, I knew that his mom had murdered him. I had I knew that he was strangled, but the actual like, just seeing just hearing it, you know, is, is kind of I don't know, foot puts it into perspective for me. You know. Well, and we also I mean, I at least, like sanitize the details because why, you know, gratuitous violence doesn't really interests us. No, it's more just so I mean, I think one of the craziest things about this is that Jerry seemed to be so normal without drugs. And I was doing some research on meth. Meth is a crazy drug like the history of methods fascinating like what it was intended for what ended up ultimately doing to our country. We could do it entire like multi part podcast on it. But, you know, it is it is crazy that she could go from, like a doting mother to murderer like in like that. The other thing I would add, I don't know if you want, we want more so more, Jared, so I, I remember this is one of my, it's where I where I don't know, when they say you're supposed to remember stuff from, like earliest memories, but this is a very vivid. Memory for me was was the several weeks or months after this happened after I got this news, I remembered laying a bunk bed at the time. I remember laying in my bed at night time. And I couldn't sleep, and I remember stirring up the bars that would go underneath the top mattress and just having a mild existential like crisis as a kid, I remember thinking about, you know, death and what happens after all these thing, it had triggered the this thought process that was not a it shouldn't be a part of anybody's life that, that age, you know, it just wasn't until until this happened. And so, I remember going back and I remember laying in my bed, and just thinking about. You know, just laying awake and not being able to sleep some nights t to any of that now. Yes. Does this happen to me? Now, what when do I normally go to bed like an our to after me, like Li I stay up late because we'll Jack Costa pet on it. Jackson gonna lady. But, like after ten pm. That's why your skin looks good. I can't sleep though. I just I, I smoke weed. And then I have existential grades, right? Nobody. You had. You had like a whole like a few years ago. You have like a huge like existential, breakdown, basically. Yeah, no. Yeah. I did. And you're not alone, and I mean, I think it's the weight of just life life settles on everybody. That's that's that's almost unavoidable for a lot of people. But I think that one of the mechanisms that I use now to, to escape some of that stuff is too. I just stay up until I'm dead S tires. I just go and tell I'm like, okay, I could just collapse right now. And I remember this going back to two being young and like trying to pretend that I was sleeping, you know, so that I could get away with like these way, probably going to go. What are you doing, though? While are you just laying awake? Are you writing? Then, you know GameBoy came out for you. Whatever. Like I it was anything I could do to prolong going to bed. Did you it? I do the same thing. I'll do anything. Why do we do it? It feels like shit. But we do it. I wasn't ready music. Then I was. I do it now, though. Yes. Like when you can't sleep. Do you of course you got the guitar nighttime. Of course. Now, I'm sorry. We were on our way home from New Orleans from crime Khan. And I was sitting next. Well, Jack was sitting next to me. Jared wizar-, and I saw him on his computer. Keyboard piano ING. Literally like. Keyboard using the ki a y t and I'm like, oh, my God, he's making music right here for the opera on on his court. He board. I love it. But now, now I can channel that night owl time into like productive and has sometimes too. I mean I stay up and work on this stuff all night like being the Batman. Yeah. Batman, I was one of the main that miniature crime. I have one more question about that. So when you're having Irwin, you started having these sleepless nights in these little mini existential, crises. When you're a kid, were you, when you were thinking about that, where he thinking about, like, what if this could happen to me, or this could happen to my parents or my sister, or would never be me? It would never be in word. Because my parents, I've, my I have a fantastic family. My parents were great growing up. I had a really happy childhood, everything was super happy normal, but it was other people have thinking about my sister and my parents. Exactly. Like what you just said. It was thinking about what happens to them, when what do I do without them? It was a very sort of outward like afraid for other people. This just happened to someone else. It could happen to another someone else. You know, like, yeah, it was never n word. It was always who around me could this happen to, you know, because that was my, my previous experience. I think we as like a people really minimize trauma. Yeah. And we don't realize how. Jarring these things can be having to wrap your head around that kind of concept at that age and then probably as you're getting older, probably finding out like piece by piece that it wasn't quite what you thought on coming to terms with, like details. And now I mean you just learn these, and I'm sorry that you had to because they're horrible. It's closure in a lot of ways to though. So that's why I was like, I, I was looking forward to hearing how you were going to put some of this together. And I think for me, it's it, there's a bit closure because left open ended nobody wanted to even talk about it after it happened. It was very you know, I went to a memorial at his school. We like planning a tree for him. And that was my last memory that was there was nothing after that it was just me wrestling with the fact that, that was my last, you know, sort of send off. A lot of designer items, but I'm going to let you in on a little secret. I have never bought anything full price, and that is because of the sponsor, the real real, I spend every single morning, probably an hour, searching this website for luxury items at ninety percent off the retail value because they're, they're leading resale of scented luxury from top designers. So you can shop designers like Louis Vuitton Gucci Rolex cardiac and hundreds more for up to ninety percent off, retail new arrivals come in daily in every single item is authenticated, by the real real is team of experts, two days ago, I just bought a pair of Burberry leather booties for ninety percent off their retail value, and they are an amazing condition. 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So neighbors said that they said that Jerry loved her son more than anything, and that she was always a doting mother, a neighbor on the scene named Charlotte wise, men, who was a friend of the family and a neighbor said that Jerry really didn't have anything else to live for. She idolized little Kenny, and he was her world, another neighbor named Gladys Brown said that she was a single parent and she was having such a hard time. She just lost her car in her phone. She lost her job last week. And she had heard that she was losing custody of her son yesterday. Neighbor said that Kenny and his mother were always playing around constantly camping in the backyard riding bikes, roller skating and running around with remote control cars anything that little Kenny wanted to do that. She did. And she didn't do anything else, but play with him when he was there. So from the outside, they just seemed like a normal. Well, and I think of family, I think she loves Kenny, I think she's sick. Yeah. I mean I don't know this is one of those things where it's like I don't wanna say anything with conviction because this could be very polarizing situation. But it's like hearing that contrasted with what she did doesn't compute for me. And even from what her husband can said, like, it's not she clearly wasn't all bad, because he was saying, this is the love of my life. She's a good mother guiding fighting for her to forty nine percent custody, even though she was troubled. Yeah. So I think this was just a shock for. Everybody where we're no one's expecting. You know, this loving mother to do something like this. Right. So. To KENNY'S father Ken, obviously, this was life running this with this was the worst case scenario in as Jack said, previously, where it's like he speculated. And he had he'd thought previously that her own suicide was the worst case scenario and that he feared having to explain to Kenny junior. Why his mother had killed himself? You know, drugs, depression schizophrenia. But, you know, this is this was life ruining for was beyond his comprehension, because he loved her and on what we know. He never expected that she would be capable of killing her son. Of course. If that was his worst case scenario, you marry someone you, you have them up on a pedestal. Yeah. You know when you marry someone it's like do no wrong. But we're all, you know, we all were all human. And it's like what Jared said earlier about your parents, the older you get become more and more human? And with. Our partners to it's like we're human, there's going to be like a few Babbel's not in a mean way, but it's not bad. So this is just another warning. We're gonna get into some description as far as what happened to Kennedy junior during Jerry's confession. So just a warning. So once Jerry was in custody, she started talking about what led to the murder of her son. And she told the police that in the hours before dawn, she crept into his room. Slipped. Her size, thirty three ten belts around his neck and pull it tight. She said, I didn't want to hurt him too bad. And when the police found him he was. Partially on the bed. So Jerry told the police that Kenny woke up for about five minutes before she decided to do what she had done in that she asked him if he had to go to the bathroom, and he said, no rolled over and went back to sleep. And she said, I've been going back and forth about this for like two years. This is dry quote. I was just doing what God wanted me to do this world isn't good for anybody. And that's not a real off the wall. Crazy idea tons of people feel like I do cards. So she said that after she killed Kenny. She went into the dining room. And. This is a court. She thought for a long time about quote, just how we are the world is. And then she started to cut herself with the box cutter. But then she tells police that, God didn't want her to kill herself. So she stopped, and it took twelve sutures to stitch her left, wrist. And when police asked her if she would ever undo what she had done, which is a really interesting question to ask she said, no. Because he he's in a very, very much better place. And like I said, this is this is her quote again. Like I said, I don't even hurt flies. I see a fly on the wall or in the kitchen I use glasses to get them outside. I mean, that's the kind of person I am little fly or a little bug in the corner, and I put it outside on a tree. When kids die, it's for a reason, you know, this is her words, somebody's got to learn something from it. I didn't want to hurt him too bad. She later said two she later told the police about the actor south. And in her mind, it's like she, she still thinks that she did the right thing. And that's the that's the crazy thing because you're looking at this, and we're going to get into the whole idea of what insanity is. But you're looking at this going. No sane person would ever say something like this. It just doesn't make any sense at all. And it seems like. It doesn't even seem cold or callous or calculating. It just seems just wrong and it's almost dismissive you. I just think that, like, you know, I'm, I'm looking at listening to, you guys say this in reading it here on the outline and it's like these quotes, are, this is crazy to me. This is it's so disconnected between not wanting to hurt a fly and then killing your own child. And then almost immediately having some sort of explanation in your brain for that, that, that, that's the thing to me that is just so scary about whether or not, she was sick or not, I, I don't know. But that's I it just doesn't make sense. Well, I was doing some research in, we have to get into this at some point. Somebody's Welby be now. But I was doing some research on an everybody knows there's a method democ, everybody watch break. Everyone watched breaking. Bad. Everyone knows it meth is, but I don't know if you have actually, like, Google, what like meth does to your brain. So I did. So, basically this guy named Dr Richard Rawson, who is the associate director of UCLA's, integrated substance abuse programs said that they did an experiment. I'm not saying he did it. But there has been an experiment done on animals that comparative dopamine levels caused by various stimuli. So sex causes dopamine levels to jump from one hundred two hundred units cocaine causes them despite two three fifty units methamphetamine, you get a release from the base level to twelve fifty units twelve hundred fifty units. So sex is causing three hundred cocaine three fifty and that's how a maze ING Mathis. So for your pleasure, pleasure, Sunsari, exactly. So in this is what drugs activate it's the same video. Oh, games it's the same as roller coasters chocolate does it? But like, you know, you, you guys get the things that caused pleasure. So it causes essentially twelve times as much release a dopamine as you'd get from food sacks in pleasurable activities. So. There's nothing else like it. I mean other than probably heroin. But that's not what I was examining in this in this episode. So when the drug wears off, obviously users experience, profound depression, and feel the need to keep avoiding feel the need to keep taking the drug, but when the keep taking the drug, they become extremely depressed when they don't get the same reaction. And then you have to add in that she's paranoid schizophrenic. Yeah. So his mental health issues again with so, and you get the paranoia. So the same way. Okay. So this is how I know how people understand math like Adderall when your, your sense. When your senses are heightened, you get into this fight or flight mode. It's why you're more jumpy. It's why you can be scared if someone walks in on you just even briefly when your natural or something meth, does that time like five hundred. So when you take some meth, you're just like everything scares you like if you have a thought, like what Jared, and I were talking about about death. You will. Spiral and think you're going to die and get paranoid and start trying to stop that. Like this is what we're dealing with in. This was a normal woman who off of meth in on her presumably schizophrenia, Mads was normal, and loving and. It's horrible. It's horrible. I wanna add something into your worse. Okay. So as you're talking about that. There's this separate called explain it to me, like I'm five, so I just looked in the Jared introduced me to. L I five but I just googled, what is about to do to your brain. Explain it to me, like I'm five, and there was a separated about it. And this was the top answer on it, and it's very interesting. So. Some person answered it says meth makes you really, really happy, more happy than you could ever get without drugs. But it also reduces your ability to become happy if very quickly reaches a point where you have to keep using math, because you can never really feel happy without it, then another person at it. It's not like a goofy happy. It's the kind of happy, where everything is fascinating. Everything you love life, any love being alive. You feel strong confident and able to meet any challenge. It's ally, this amount of pleasure extracts, equal pain, horror, and misery. I'll never forget the screaming yawning emptiness of my soul. I wanted to tear the flesh from my face with my fingernails on swallow a nuclear bomb to blow every atom of my body as far away from each other as possible, but it didn't have enough strength to even lift my hands. Nor could I sleep. That's how mathematics your brain feel in your math came from. I mean meth was for war methods for soldiers in World War Two, so it's fascinating. We don't have time to get into the history of math. You can be a good person instill, get addicted to meth and do horrible things. And, but you could have started, as a good person, and I'm not justifying Jerry's behavior. But hearing, the people who, like went to bat for her for who, who knew her. I feel like we are dealing with two different people, and I think it's okay to say like on meth Jerry is evil murderer in off. Math. Jerry is sorry, probably. So Jerry, was obviously arrested and ended up being charged with first degree murder. And she was facing the death penalty the trial approach and the judge would not allow us violent picture of Kenny to be shown to the jury claiming that it'd be prejudicial, but they would be allowed to see a single autopsy photo. He justified this by saying that he looked quote unquote. Peaceful in this picture by day nine of the trial. Ken, Thomas senior had his usual seat at the end of the front bench directly behind the prosecutor and next younger sister. He listened intently as the witnesses went on non about Jerry's mental health her history of Matthews and her beliefs that he was he was evil incarnate. Jerry was firmly entrenched in her beliefs that a vast satanic coal existed in our community, and that shined red laser lights under her house, and that reading the bible, would protect her Ken was pissed about the trial telling the media that this isn't about my child is become about Jerry, which is unfortunately, what it always was about also saying that he didn't die quickly and I knew his mom killed him. And the thought of his realizing this eats me up and. There were a bunch of articles that said, like he was pissed at the clinical tone of the trial. So it was less of he was just like you're talking about this. Like it's like a corporate litigation. Yeah. That's what really bothered him. Like he's like this is a purse my son. You know, and they were talking about, like stole the life of big talked about it, like it was a transaction. Yeah. And like his son was like an object. Yes. Understandably is deeply upsetting sixty seconds. That's exactly how long this commercial will asked. But do you know what else you can do in about a minute, you can get an offer for your car with truecar? That's right. And the amount of time that it takes you to floss your teeth pet your dog. Do a few sit-ups make a Cup of coffee or just listen to my beautiful voice, you can get a truecar cash offer and best of all you can do it from your smartphone or from your home. Just go to truecar and simply enter your license plate, number, and watch how your car's details pop up. You can answer a few questions and you'll get an accurate true cash offer from a local truecar certified dealer. It is that easy, and after that, you can bring in your car, and they'll check it out with you together. You can ask questions and get all the answers that you need. So you're not in the dark, and there's no surprises. Then simply leave with your check or trade in your car for a new ride. So when you're ready to experience a better way to sell or trade in your car, check out truecar today. So on day eleven of the trial to hers, actually reject the insanity defense and the prosecution argued that Kenny was actually killed out of anger. So this was the motive that Jerry learned that custody was actually going to be granted to Ken, and in a confession that was played for jurors at the trial jury said that quote, Kenny was getting messed with real bad, and she's been asking God for months to please come down here and do something and take him up there where he's safe. So the defense was hoping that she would be found guilty except insane and that verdict would allow her to be sentenced to mental hospital instead of a prison, and if she was insane jurors would have the decide if it was self inflicted, if the insanity was actually self inflicted with years from the years of method Beuys says a lot of area bills going with this trial. So Kent Thomas said that Jerry started using math. In the eighties, and it caused that rampant paranoia. Like you were talking about before. She said he said that it took control of her from the first time she tried it. And prosecutors argued that state law at the time said that a person cannot be found guilty except insane if he or she suffers from disorders that result from acute, voluntary intoxication, or withdrawal from alcohol or drugs, which is fascinating us because you go from like, the example would be if you get into freak car accident. And it's an accident, which you're not liable really like it's a bad accident to you were drunk in. There's an accident like that's the only thing I can liken it to where they're saying you can't blame your mental disorder if it was exacerbated by math. The judicial system determines whether or not you're insane, based on your ability to recognize whether what you were doing is, is right or wrong. Exactly. And she knew she's like, I, I had I had to save him from the world. She knew it was wrong. She ran from the cop. She tried to kill herself after but did she think it was wrong? The variety to think it was right in sobriety. She thought it was wrong. This is the thing in. That's where this like this mess implication changes things on math. She's like it makes total sense, a meth. She thought it was completely justified. Right. But he thought she Dave. He's crying in court. Like in, in the meth was her decision. Yeah. So you take a mind altering substance willingly, and it changes your cognitive abilities, still your fault. But it was also revealed in court that Jerry had, I mean, this is how severe her drug problem that she's accused can of injecting Kenny with mind. Altering substances took him to the hospital had I'm check for needle puncture holes. Like I mean this went on and on defense attorney really harped on these things, like how severe her mental illness was where she's she had a nurse checker son for puncture holes 'cause you thought her son was she thought her husband was injecting, her son with something in three doctors for the defense testified that Jerry didn't know what she was doing wrong when she kills Kenny and the prosecutor argued that she probably believed that she was going to end up getting the short end of the stick in regards to her son. So. So the prosecutor is arguing that, like she was eating desperate, because she was losing custody, and losing grip on her family. So. As a result of that she decided she was going to take care of the problem herself, which is a horrible way to put it, but lawyers are such people and on the day, that's when she took the belts, I don't need to keep going with what the lawyer said, in court so can was interviewed on the Dave, Jerry sentencing. And he said that by that point, you still could not bring himself to clean out his son's room or the toy room in his Chandler home. The doors were all pulled shut still cans favorite picture of Kenny holding a basketball hangs on the wall. Still taking the year before his death can coach two sons team that season. They took trips to Disneyland and to see world. They played soccer and football. And they like to watch meteor showers together, the Maricopa County judge sentenced Jerry Thomas to thirty five years before she'd be eligible for parole. He decided against giving her life, without parole stating that is clear to me that the defendant loved her son. It's clear to me that the defendant is living in a hell. Oh, that she's going to be stuck in for the rest of her life. Ooh. I just saw Jared react viscerally. How does it? Talk about this. So I, I didn't know what the sentencing was. I was actually curious to find that out today because I didn't know like I said the last memory, I have of any of this was his. Morale's. So seeing that in just seeing laid out like that, you know, in, in thinking about the, the haunting the spread to just as friends and people that knew him. I can't imagine being a part of the family and hearing, the judge said that and factor that into his sentencing kind of blows my mind that she's going to be living in hell in hell should be stuck in for the rest of her life. Let's. Dark. Can imagine stork I mean guilty when I do something really trivial? Oh was. I mean in that meeting like that. What is what I lose sleep over. I can't imagine right something like this can was wearing angel pin on his blazer and the Mesa detective is actually comforting him putting a hand on his shoulder. And after the sentence was handed down. A reporter asked Kenny what he was going to do now. And he responded quote, I'm probably going to go home and cry. The prosecutor said quote, this case has never been about guilt or innocence. It's about insanity and how drugs and mental illness, intertwine, and whether paranoid, delusions could be excuse enough to justify a mother, killing her son while he slept. Family members interviewed said nothing can fill the void that can his death left. You can't get over losing child said Carol Gallivan, who's KENNY'S aunt? I just felt she used Kenny to get what she wanted. I'm sorry, but that's not love. Off. During this whole experience as the as this case is working itself through the system. Ken senior was extremely vocal in the media in terms of the impact drugs out on his wife and his family. He said in one interview, she was my high school sweetheart. I loved her for twenty two years. She was the love of my life until she kills Kenny if she would have tried and gone straight. I would've loved her for the rest of my life. She killed my child. She stopped existing in my world, the person I love does not exist anymore and your members the last night. He saw Kenny that dinner at Taco Bell and Kenny got three toys, and they talked about the new Star Wars movie that was coming out, and as he got out of the car, he said, I'll see you tomorrow and we'll go see Empire Strikes Back. I love you. I know on choking up. I know what he's saying too, though, because this is nineteen ninety seven seven. So they were talking about Star Wars in pretty sure Taco Bell had Star Wars toys around that time with their kids meal, and they were gonna go see Empire Strikes Back. So they were gonna go see that. Oh, that's right. Infantry ministers? Price, strikes back was the remastered that's exactly what that line. Yeah. Damn. Yeah. That's. So side. So kency near hope to son's death would be a wakeup call. To everybody else on drugs. Any hopes someday, somebody will realize that this could happen to them, too, and that they'll quit using math. Ios parents will hug their children more. And because. You know, and tell them that their love, because you never know what's coming and think about, you know, being able to still say if she had gone straight. You know, she was loved my life until she killed Kenny. And we know that she was doing a lot of bad things before that. Yeah. But even to say that he was still willing. This is how much they're they're, they're the love that he had for her. But she was under this spell. I wanna say something real quick, and we made it a point in the beginning of the episode to mention her accolades, she was a college graduate. She had a career for a long time. They were country club members this is not. I feel like people when they think of people addicted in math, they think like you know, I don't know what they think, but this was someone accomplished, who is in love, who was married, who had a child who had family loved her. It is not a biased drunk gnome that doesn't discriminate. No, you try it. You're susceptible. And this is not an anti-drug podcast. But the, the number is even the ones I talked about earlier about what it does to your dopamine. Is terrifying. So I just want to like she was not kind of, in this demographic, that a lay person would consider susceptible to something like this. And lo and behold, it's like it doesn't really matter if you any everyone is so you have to be really careful and the has to be the hardest thing for Ken senior to kind of think about over and over and over in his mind where it's like this person assumingly inherently wasn't about person. No, they probably just sees her turning around in chemistry class like the love of his life. Well, you know, met matter, twenty two years ago like. Then the stall in the pain of all of that is like unfathomable, and then you also don't know when you think about as a kid, I mean you were a little bit more perceptive as adults on potentially. What's going on with people, but Jared knew this family, but didn't didn't have any idea? And even his mom, there your mom knew this family as and thought it was alcohol instead of meth and alcohol is completely different than meth which is why in, in this was the last kind of thought that I had on all of this was I went into this thinking that this was going to be a matter of, if I can't have custody of, of my son, then nobody can that was how I for the last however many years of my life, twenty two years of my life, had interpreted all of this, you know. So knowing that there was this whole other element in that, which is actually what the case ended up being about for the most part. Was the effects of, of math, and the I guess the, the behavioral response to something like that. And how that played such a big part and all I had no, I had no idea that that was even a element any of this. I think something really great to take away. I mean, if there is such a thing in a case like this is like things are rarely so black and white in. That's with everything. We've talked about we talk about like kind of the media shifting conversations in kind of making generalizations about cases and things like that. There. Everything is intricate, like human beings are complicated won't relationships. And we're talking about literally the most violent thing in the world homicide. Like there's no way that, that's a simple thing. There's always so many layers, whether that be mental health or just straight up psychopathy, or whatever it is. There's, there's always so many more layers to something that you can usually like describing a son sack Louis. So, you know, this case can't kinda came up in an interesting way German, I've been dating for around a year. We started a podcast around a year ago, and he never really even mentioned the story until kind of recently, and it's, it's just an interesting thing, where even when you don't think that you're connected to something. And even when you don't think that something is affected your life in a certain way. They're usually is something that has. Yeah. I mentioned in passing. I didn't I was like, oh, yeah, I when I was a kid and you were kind of like what? Yeah in. I had no details in. It's, it's I've been blown away tonight by how much stuff you're able to find out like. It was also interesting. Because when you first started telling me about this case, we tried to Google, there was literally nothing. There's nothing there. I don't even know if there's an article on it. Nope. At all. No, we weren't able to find anything and I started to feel crazy because I was like, I remember this so so vividly, so many parts of this. Yeah. And there was just no trace for me to go back in. So is kind of in the dark full on time on what even actually ended up happening, so Alexis, you're, you're a magician. Let me tell you. Like everybody's connected to something crazy in it impacted you in a way that you don't really understand. Yeah. In a way that still affects you today, because the first time they ever learned about death, and that is or had to come to terms with that. And that's a very complex process to even understand as an adult and you became an artist in New York actually listen to his music now. Yes, sir. Go. Download the Maine's new album. No Ville wounds. Thanks guys. I'm not in the music video music venues. Sure. Is it going to be a slender? Man music video. It is now. Hell. Yeah. Billy just walking around in the background. Imagine Billy on stilts of people on stilts in Louis in New Orleans. Take them from my legs. Eighth thought he was already on still. People coming out to be here. Yeah. Yeah. That's not what that why they were asking. Whatever. Okay. Well, I guess if anybody is listening to us for the first time that maybe medicine crime gone. Thanks for listening. We at the best time. We're the best time. We have a lot of new listener. So I hope this is a good episode for you guys to jump onto. And if you are connected to a crime or murder, or other stranger than fiction story, please write us. Hello at the first three podcast dot com, or at the first degree out, Alexis linkletter app Johnson at Jax at Jared moon, that would be on Instagram or or the Twitter. Nobody uses Twitter and Billy is you've so many followers on that you want people have a lot, how many forty? Oh, I had more than that deleted my Twitter. Seventy thousand are useless. Isn't the coolest person I've ever met? But yeah, sled endure DM's tells your story, no story is too small and no stories too small. Listen, we told the story today, and there wasn't a single Google article about it, Alexis, confined, literally anything Alexis the machine, Alexis the tank linkletter Alexa, the tank of information dot com link that are. That's a fun website. Okay. Well until next week, keep your friends close, but not that close. Gonna happy Oreo day be eaten. We have that can you burn the car happy, having aurea mcflurry in the fridge day? I'm Rita Foley with an AP newsman, Ed. President Trump formally began his reelection campaign last night in Orlando. He said he tackled illegal immigration and increase the number of available jobs. The fact as the American dream is back. It's bigger and better and stronger than ever before. But democrat rival Bernie Sanders says of the people in this country today, a working paycheck to paycheck, he says he watched the president's rally, which he described as full of lies distortions and nonsense. The president of the pilot's union at American Airlines testifies on Capitol Hill today, he'll say Boeing made mistakes with the seven thirty seven max two of which crashed overseas recently, an active shooter, scare the Honolulu, airport appears to have been set off by a malfunctioning laptop that popped and started smoking. I'm Rita Foley.