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TCF Ep. 493 - Marc Silber


Over the past year I've been weaning myself off of social media. I took facebook off my phone and only check on I briefly in the morning on my computer I deleted ninety five percent of my subscriptions on Youtube. What time I do spend but social media is about fifteen minutes in the morning sharing post and uploading an image just to instagram? Since making that choice I realized how much time might absently wasted browsing through those APPS and services. As if you had asked me I was looking at. I might have told you that I I spent some of that time looking for inspiration but actually i. I was just killing time. My creativity wasn't going to be sparked by watching someone else. Make the photographs that I wish I was making creativity is. It's just too worried to noun and it's something that only comes to life when you put in the time and do the work and that's what successful. Oh photographers writers. Filmmakers and musicians do and it's this process of seeing something through from inspiration to creation and that's the subject of Mark Sievers new book create tools from seriously talented people. The unleash your creative life. Mark who you may recognize from his Popular Youtube Channel interviewed a diverse selection of creative people to gain insight into what they do to make creativity an essential -sential part of their lives. Many of them began by making the simple choice to not accept a false premise. That too many people buy into do. They just didn't buy that that premise. That you you sort of separate your life into you know at this age. I'm creative and then later on I gotta get down to work and that creativity Kinda goes by the boards or even even more you know to dissect your life into bits of time where you only have twelve minutes a day where you're on instagram. And that's your creative time. And they they just didn't buy that. The book offers gems of wisdom than helpful tips and how to lead a creative life. One of them includes having a state of mind. That nurtures rather than stifles creativity activity but David made a point in the process in the artistic process in the creative process. One thing. That's absolutely vital. Is You just just let it flow. You don't get into self editing and you don't put on the brakes and you don't sell criticize. I know that's easier said than done but if you go out with that mindset that if you don't look back over your shoulder constantly or in our case look at that screen ago by that sucks. This is really stupid. I'm not getting any to you know the more that you do. The less this thing is going to flow and he said what works for him is letting the flow open and he realizes at the beginning. It's a little bit like turning on a water faucet that's been turned off for a while. You know you get Kinda Ed Brown discolored water in a little rusty but as the water flows all that rest kind of flows through and you get clean running water. We'll talk to mark mark about the stories and insights. He gained from his interviews and how working on the book helped him to shape and nurture his own creativity. This is connects and welcome back to the candidate frame but marks great talking with you again. I same here. It's been a while and I'm really glad to be talking about The subject of creativity. Yeah I've been. I've been watching your youtube channel with those videos within Dan. Wealth Milner. Yeah I've known for a long time and enjoyed -joyed this sort of insight. He brings to the the discussion. And you know it's kind of in line what you're what you're doing with the new book. You've always have focused on providing conversations with people. Ah about this whole topic of creativity and how to negotiate it and I've always appreciated that and This this new book provide you just another outlet to be able to do that. But you know you you've been doing this for for such a long time. What led you to want it? Encapsulated all in In a book I wanted to write a book before I got into all this other stuff. So it's kind of almost a backward thing. I actually did write a book. My first book I wrote in the eighth grade raid unpublished. Sadly it should have been published and it was Actually I didn't do the writing. I did the photography and a friend of Mine Ila or did the poetry that went along with it and it was always kind of in my plans to start publishing and it just I dunno life got in the way and as a started developing and building my youtube channel with interviews at at some point I thought you know I've got a lot of content here that would really make good written content because you know there's such a difference twain watching a video on Youtube and having a book in your hand that you can refer to out in the field you can make notes in. I'm a I'm an old school book Macpherson. You know. I like to have that hard copy in my hands. I make lots of little liner notes and it becomes a becomes a useful tool tool so that was kind of the direction. I wanted to go in so that you know when I wrote my first book it was a lot of it was based on the many interviews. Done the second book was on composition. I had another little con video production and then this one covers the subject of creativity. Abby which is obviously a bigger subject than just being a photographer but photography obviously fits in there and it's a huge part of my life so that's kind of how it all came about. It's just a big topic to have to tackle. I it is. I discussed creativity all the time when it whether I'm interviewing reviewing people with their writing whether I'm teaching I mean it's the big umbrella but to sit down and start writing it. I be hard pressed to go. Where do I start? How did you tackle that? Well I've been looking at this subject for a long time and my previous books were were kind of Leading up to this discussion but I the first thing I did was I mapped out. What is the process of creativity? Because I didn't Wanna I just make this sort of touchy feely vague sort of. Hey you should be more creative. I actually wanted my you know my whole bent when you look at my youtube channel dollar. Read my books as I like to get down to the nuts and bolts things and give practical advice. It will actually make a difference so I I thought okay. Let me look at how creativity has worked for me first of all and I basically you know plotted out the chapters and put that in the book and then very shortly into it my publisher my editor actually said you know. Be really good mark. If you could get interviews with a lot of the people that you've already talked to but specifically about creativity and I thought you know that's a really good idea so I started a series as of interviews. But they weren't all just with photographers. The you know the amazing thing. Is everybody's a photographer now. So you know there somehow. Our relating everything to Petar one way or another but but this was a wide array of different creatives different fields who were highly successful foil and my criteria was I wanted to pick people who had really come to a point where they master their craft. Whatever it was and they were really good at it and they were also You know obviously willing to share their knowledge which is always my kind of my formula anyway now so I started doing interviews and I ended up doing twelve twelve different interviews with Chris. Burkhardt who I think you know right did. Have you had him on the show Chris. SMART or BURKHARDT is a well. He you know he's a phenomenon now. He's got over three and a half million followers on instagram. I interviewed him about ten years ago when he was pretty young and he's become a sensation as a photographer. But I wanted to take the that interview reviewing all my other ones beyond just photography and talk about okay how do you instill creativity as a parent. How do you block out time and make what? What are the things that you do that that enhance creativity in your own life and for other people? Camille Seaman has wonderful Natural natural photographer Sweet we I met up with her. Actually she's moved to Ireland. So we had that discussion via skype Jarl whether the very slow Internet connection so that was interesting challenge but we we managed to make it work on and on so each one of these people had their own input edits. These stories were fascinating how they came from whatever they started with two point of being highly creative. And I'm GonNa tell you one in particular that I think stands out amongst all these and this. Is Chris mccaskill. Who was the CO founder of smug Mug with his with his son dog him? So Chris's story is I don't know if you know if it's remarkable and he told me this in passing once I was doing an an event it's Mug Mug and while we're setting up the equipment. He just sort of told me these things. I almost didn't believe it but he said you know I grew up on the streets of Oakland. California -fornia homeless really Chris. I would never have guessed that so. It was always in the back of my mind kind of delve into what's Story with the rest of it so in the book he told me the whole thing. But what you have to almost. I almost giving it a punchline. Orange line away. But here's the remarkable thing so. He grew up homeless on the streets of Oakland. His mother was a research scientists and and unfortunately had increasing mental illness. Problem ended up really being diagnosed schizophrenic and ended up on the streets just with him and that's how he grew up. You know from something like eighty five to twelve. He was living under bridges. And you know eating eating in soup kitchens and you know that was his life. He eventually kind of got rescued out of that and went to a high school regular high school and it was just unbelievable. You know the opportunities that people had just blew his mind will Chris went on from there to earn his MBA. Hi It's Stanford to work with Steve. Jobs become a serial entrepreneur and basically build this life. That anybody nobody would be envious of but I think the remarkable thing is. He says a day doesn't pass that. I don't just realize realize how much we have and how how much opportunity there is there. was I feel as an incredibly important message here. We are in a wealthy country. That's got all sorts of resources and it's easy to lose sight of the fact that we shouldn't take that for granted we shouldn't take these resources for granted and most importantly we shouldn't take our own creative urges for granted so that was one of the stories that stood out and there is eleven others from from all sorts of interesting people. One of them is. Nancy Cartwright who's the voice of Bart Simpson learn. Actually she's not only the way so Bart Simpson. She's like like nine other voices on the simpsons and dozens of other ones and she told the story about how she just you know when she was in high school learn that that she could use her voice and then just kept pursuing that to the point where she has an unbelievable career you know she. Every one of these people had to overcome things. It didn't just life didn't just SORTA dish it out to them on a on a silver platter. One of the things I wanted to talk to you about is that I i. Oh I think that at some point every every child is creative and in some way you know. y'All they sing they dance. They do impressions whatever it is but at some point when it gets stifled for Don Yeah for whatever reason and there are some people who are able to not allow that creativity that desire to be to be stifled as you said. Yeah I think a lot. A lot of what's the difference in my life has has been at some point. There was some to encourage me. And I'm wondering then the stories that you that you discovered as a result of these conversations since how how much of it was reliant on having someone else a mentor friend. Somebody to say you can do this. I bet and I didn't necessarily dig in on every single one of those conversations but but for sure that was brought up by most of slim that there was some one that did mentor them at this stood out as an example that they could follow in my case assist photographer. I had an uncle who happened to be a top gun pilots in World War Two. His name was Sam silber but everybody called him. Sambo oh so he was my uncle sambo and he was a photographer so with really tiny amounts of training raining. Wasn't it wasn't really much but things like. He showed me how to frame a photograph that made all the difference in the world. Just going from. Hey I'll just take a shot at this tree to framing. It also now had a tool and he just didn't varies. Small always mentored me and then the biggest thing he did amongst you know just is encouragement. Was He one day sent me a role Affleck's for some reason he had stopped using and that was a game changer. For me this two and a quarter square beautiful camera and I tell the story about how how my last semester of high school I managed to finance finagle connive however you WanNa put it the deep principal my school to let me go to Mexico for the last semester of high school instead of sitting in that boring classroom and I took that role flex with man to dozens presence and dozens of roles and came back with some of the best photos of my life but it clearly having someone in your life that Kinda l. lead you in the right direction is a huge factor. There's no doubt about that. So when you were interviewing these people. I'm sure that you were sort of piecing together. What do they have in common so we just talked about mentorship and a Lotta people assume that these people who are successful are somehow somehow unique that down talent in their blessed down in some way and from all the conversations I've ever had I think that is east? It's not true it's not true but there's no question about that so what was sort of a common denominator that you heard from all of these people that that you felt was essential essential to them being able to live a great life. It's almost like a Peter Pan. They just didn't grow up in the in the sense and I don't mean that in a weird way I ah I mean we we touched upon it. You know that life has a way of just pounding down. That creativity is kind of a weird thing as kids were we're encouraged and were given all sorts of opportunities to create. You know there's finger painting drawing and there's music and poetry whenever people get into even sports orson as a very creative thing but then you know it just you could just draw herve. I think after grade school on Highschool for sure Collagen login. Absolutely when you get that first job is sort of like a tube of toothpaste has been squeezed out tied total in. There's not much left unless yes you happen to be fortunate enough to get creative job like my kids have done. They managed to seek out these highly creative jobs but it it. It just gets squished out. I think the you know and people sort of get hypnotized into this nine to five drudgery and and then they come home. They're so exhausted. They don't think they have the time to pursue anything creative. which by the way I devoted an entire chapter just to showing how you do have enough time and sort of debunking that the common denominator I think of all these guys is that they didn't buy into that they did? They manage to get themselves out of this. I'm sure they did to some degree. I mean we we all all kind of do but they just didn't buy that that premise. You you sort of separate your life into you know at at this age on creative and then later on I gotta get down to work and that creativity Kinda goes by the boards or even even more you know to dissect your life life into bits of time where you only have twelve minutes a day where you're on instagram. And that's your creative time. And and they they just didn't in by that and I think that's one of the big messages of the book is not only. Should you not buy that. And you should shake off this hypnotic trance chance that our culture sort of instills upon us. I give you ways to do that. I give some practical tools to put more your creativity and your life and an clearly photographers. I think one of the biggest things we all face is you know how not to plagiarize ourselves how not to take the same photograph over and over again at how to look with fresh eyes and fresh mind to to find something different and but at the same time to develop your voice but not just stay stuck in a certain That that's all there is to it because eventually you're going to burn out if if that happened so right I mean I completely feel you on that I mean the yeah. That's always what I'm resisting. His duplicating myself. I Ah and when I go out and shoot and I tell my students. My only goal is one picture and I'm not. I'm not saying that it has to be a great picture. It just has has to be a picture that I've not attempted before and it doesn't even have to be successful right but if I can look at the picture in in and see the I'm stretching myself that I'm challenging myself then that's a good day for me but it's it's it's a hard thing because so much of people's I think. Fight in tour in terms of reclaiming their creativity. especially if it's been stomped down and repressed for very long time is the fact that this onus that they have to be good every time they go out there and take a picture every time they sit down to write a story. Yeah that that perfectionism is so oppressive in so paralyzing. So what what are some of the suggestions that you have in your book to get past those moments so that you can and embrace the fact that sometimes you have to fail in terms of being created the failure and in being disappointed with the results is part and parcel for the court. You know it's interesting that came up with almost everybody you know all those negative voices inside your head or external voices which are even worse the basically tell you you're not good enough. You're not doing anything worthwhile. Whatever one of them that stands out on that as David Campbell symbol? Now you may not recognize that name. He's the father back first of all but as a producer as a musician himself Alf and as a leader of various different bands. He's he has somehow produced or been apart of over four four hundred fifty gold and platinum albums and list of people. He's worked with just would you know you'd you'd recognize every one of them but David made a point in the process in the artistic process in the creative process one thing. That's absolutely vital. Is You just let it flow. You don't don't get into self editing and you don't put on the brakes and you don't self criticize. I know that's easier said than done but if you go out with that mindset even if you don't look back over your shoulder constantly or in our case Look at that screen ago by that sucks. Yes this is really stupid. I'm not getting any you know the more of that you do. The less this thing is going to flow and he said what works for him is leading the flow flow open and he realizes at the beginning. It's a little bit like turning on a water faucet that's been turned off for a while you know you get kind of Brown discolored water order in as little rusting. But as the water flows all that rest kind of flows through and you get clean running water in life works that way too. You know The first bits are like whatever you know. But if you don't stop you don't self criticize and you don't like try to self edit which by the way is Totally separate process and I'm delineate that you're editing hat is totally different than your shooting hat. When you're shooting you're shooting you're not thinking about? Oh you know I should do this without or try to add it right on the spot. Let that be another part of the process. But that's the key right. There is is just let the flow go go with the flow. You know sixties mantra but it still works and if you do that you're going to find that the thank start to pick up and I'm sure you've noticed that I noticed that you know. Oh Yeah you get in the zone and I completely embrace that idea but it's it's a it's a thing that you can't think yourself out of the solution I've ever found for that is to sit down and write or or go out and make photographs. I cannot reason myself out of that editor being of the process of creativity to true. Do because you're almost like when you when you start reasoning whether you're you're almost like falling for it right there and so because there is that creative spark that maybe this won't work but so what I'm making. I'm moving in that direction. I'm making something happen and this is another. Thank thank Keith Code. Who is a was a champion motorcycle? Racer you might think. Wow what a motorcycle. Racer got to do with creativity. Well it turns turns out his incredibly talented guy and he also served founded the California superbike school. He's a photographer as well. But keats said you know you got to take those moments of where you have those sparks and you've got to write down or you gotta put him in a notebook or you gotta do something thing right then or else. It's kind of fly away We all have those moments so i. I'm a huge believer notebooks. I you should see how many notebooks I have and sometimes I got to know books going at once a very important process that you know whether he formerly call lead. journaling I do. It's it's a common denominator for many many many creative people many more than I could put in the book Tim Ferriss I saw an interview. He did with the Chase Jarvis not too long ago and Tim said Hey I found the the two of the most outstanding points with Highly creative people to them our number one they always start their day Off doing something this inspirational. In my case I sit down and read I in the morning people known. Hey don't mess with mark. He's over there in his own little world. He's drinking coffee. Don't don't don't go chat with him. I I make that really kind of a firm rule. Because I'm trying gotta get my mind sat and mostly declutter it. And you know okay get some new ideas get things flowing and then somewhere around that process again my little notebook with me and I start jotting down ideas whether I even pursue any of those ideas that day or or never. Her doesn't matter. It's I'm getting things I'm getting the gunk out. I'm putting I'm spraying. WD Forty on the on the parts that get Kinda cranky you know and and I'm loosening things up and it helps me basically prepare for the day so anyway interesting to here Tim. FERRISS say those are two common nominators that he found with very creative people. And how easy is that to do. Find some time carbon. I get up a little earlier. Whatever you have to do? Use that for inspiration and set the tone for the whole day. You know win win the morning saying when the day is his motto and I. I'm a big believer that asks us this morning with exercise and meditation just it just to be able to just focus on myself not all the noise in my head and I think just taking that time for myself can help set the tone not just for the rest the day but for those moments that I need to be creative because I I tell people I roll out of bed crazy you know so I need to I know why all the voices in my head I didn't even if it's just for fifteen minutes It just helps to give me a perspective of what I can and want to accomplish that day. And and and all the interviews that I've read or I've seen about people who are successful in in creative that they often time have that self time in the morning whether or not they go out that day and actually create something that they make that the Elliott practice an essential part of their lives and I think that it primes the pump trump for those moments. When you are going to pick up a paintbrush your get down at the computer and write something or go out and make a photograph when you when when you make the most parts and pieces daily part of your practice? you don't necessarily have to be creative every day but you make it likely that when you do you're making the most out of that time so true absolutely true. Hey here's another one. Because I put a lot of what I I I like to get. As I mentioned like to get practical things that people can do and this is incredible. I put a whole chapter on this. So there was a research project down at Stanford University in two thousand fourteen on creativity and they found the people who went on walks. Where where sixty percent more creative than those who just sort of sat in their cubicle? Desks or will look to their computer. There was a sixty percent increase in creativity tippety. They did a little testing. You know and I believe that I am a huge fan of walking. I made Too Extreme I do long long backpacking backpacking trips which is a long long walk but even v Twelve fifteen as a kind of short walk for me but you know thirty minutes hour and a half whatever and get off your electronics. Don't don't go into walk looking at your iphone. That's just defeats the whole purpose. I do it. I'm sometimes guilty of it but boy really try to curb that because what you wanna be doing is looking out you know in our modern world world where so pushed back by computers electronics and things keep your attention so focus close up. It's getting out looking. Oh King freshening up your mind and those are the two things kind of book ends in my day that morning kind of journaling and on an afternoon walk through like Yeah it keeps you from being having all that crazy crap going on you know it. Kinda drains away. Yeah I I took facebook off of my phone so the only time I'm on in the morning when I you know send birthday wishes. They our post something with respect to the show with Youtube. I just I just stopped subscribing to like ninety percent of the channels I was subscribing to just leave mine and they're data included. You're included. Okay good but it was just it was just that I I just felt like I was using that and other other things things as distractions. And it's so that's what I mean. Really one of the biggest things that interferes with our creativity like you sit down to write. And you're you're running through that little whether you WanNa call writer's block or just writers pause there's a lag bearing on how am I going to get going on this and if something POPs up that distracts you. Oh Wow yeah. I should look at that thing on facebook right. Yeah what is that little instagram posts. No no no no no no no. Because that's just that's just going to keep happening until you turn those things off and you have a computer screen in the old days member. Those we had the blinking cursor. And that was it and in some so many ways I was better than what we got in our got. Everything dialed ended ended. Distract you and we have to turn that stuff off. And just you know if you're gonNA right right if you're going to add a photograph edit a photo or video whatever it is. Don't delay yourself get distracted The year is almost over but we still have plenty of work to do. We've almost wrapped up production for the season but we are already working hard on our fourteenth fourteenth. which will include our five hundred episode? We were recently recognized as one of the top five. It's podcast in an article that was published on f stoppers and as much as the recognition pleases me. It's the messages that I get from you. That mean the most to me when you tell me how the show Oh has and continues to inspire you as even changed your life. I'm thrilled and humbled to hear that. It's a big reason. I do this and why I will never see see this as just my show. I'm one of the people that make it happen. But if it wasn't for you listening and supporting us I would be just some Yahoo blowing wind into a microphone microphone. We haven't relied on advertisers and sponsors for a while now and for good reason. I want this show to be shaped by what you want and need but to do that. We need your financial support. So if you haven't already please consider supporting this show by becoming patriots supporter by contributing. Only five dollars a month you help us to deliver these conversations to you every month and every year visit patron dot com forward slash the candidate frame time and become a Patriot support today. Thanks there's been a lot of books on creativity already in one of the things that I think people get very inspired afterwards and they feel like okay. Now I go out and do it. But it's GONNA it Kinda tapers off in life takes over. So what are some of the things that you have in the book that they you think can help. People sort of sustain the momentum after being inspired hiring being educated by after reading create. Yeah I'm glad you asked me that because one of the features of the book is At the end of every chapter I I have two things first of all I have. What's called summarizing questions? I I kind of follow the day method of education that the socrates developed which was not to teach but to ask questions. And you know that's how we really learn we. If you look back on your best teachers teachers they were the ones that asked questions that you had to answer in figure out for yourself the ones the ones that just tried to spoon feed you a lot of data. You don't even remember their names anymore but the ones who ask questions were the ones that stand out in your mind and so I'm asking questions and I want people to to not. I just read this material. I want them to make the time to answer these questions. Because that's where the changes can occur. So I I ask the questions about what we covered and I. They're not reading quizzes at all. They're they're like Here's an example so in this chapter I'm talking talking about The cycle of creativity which very briefly I should describe that so the cycle of creativity. I you visualize something you know ansel Adams said that the the secret or the key to a photograph was that you you. I visualize it before you press the shutter and the difference between a snapshot and a photograph is the fact that the photographer who visualizes. I is making a photograph. You know he says you. Don't take a photograph you Mak- AK- you're but you have to start with your own vision. Okay so from visualizing the next step is you have to know your tools in the case of photography. Got To know your equipment. Don't let the equipment get in the way. No it well enough so that you did doesn't encumber you and then you gotta you gotTa Work Your Craft aft away. We're talking about that land flow. Don't stop but find time. Make time to work your craft. It won't just happen by itself you've got to to make time for it whether it's twenty minutes or two hours or two days or whatever whatever you've got you've gotta find that time and make that time so that's called working in your craft and the fourth stage of this is what we touched upon to is editing and don't mix mix these stages up editing has has its own process after you've already done something Stephen King you know he's a big believer in let it flow and then come back back on your rewrite or your edit and you're probably going to throw out ten to fifteen percent of what you wrote while photographers we. We do a lot more than that we might. We might go out and photograph a whole day in Philip entire car and come back with one photograph that we're we you think. Oh that's pretty darn good. You know maybe whatever. So you're going to edit it down and the final stages getting it out to the world. You've got to do something to get it off your computer in a letter people see it. There's many ways to do that so one of the things I do is I asked this kind of question. Questionable lists three excuses. You've have for not getting into production and ask for excuses because those are the things that you know. They're they're there there we might as well vocalise them or write them down. Because the minute you start looking at those things and you write them down you go what you know. I have been doing that. He might get an Aha. But at least you're gonNA get some kind of separation between what you've been doing and what so you want to be doing so I asked questions like that and then After I've asked those questions five or six of them usually I ah give people exercises a practical things to do to put again to put into the real world what they've just read. Otherwise it's it's it's not GonNa do any good to just read a bunch of information and not implemented yet. They're writing down and doing. The exercise are essential. I mean really. It's yeah yeah it's it's the only way to really learn because you can. You can watch something you can hear something and it was just go on the Internet the other. Yeah sitting down and actually taking the contrary action is really essential to making any sort of change it is it is and you know and looking at excuses being honest with yourself stripping those away way is a huge factor. Because I again that was something. A lot of these people brought up that I was interviewing that. They they could strip away sort of common mom and misconceptions and get rid of those and when you strip those away you find there some freedom there. You can do something you couldn't do before it's very important. Yeah I mean. We talked earlier about mentors being sort of a resource in terms of helping people along but communities is is a big part of it in and choosing the right community is essential because there there are a lot of groups out there and sometimes they're not necessarily going it'd be the best people for whom to associate yourself with. If you want to sort of achieve things creatively but I can understand that. Some people feel like well. They're in a wasteland right so they're just reaching for anyone either online and in the community so I know it's kind of a tricky question but nevertheless is how how how'd you one find the right community. And how do you discern whether or not it is a good fit and it's not just GonNa lead you too walking in the wrong direction or or or really stifling your growth. Yeah and I've been through both of those you know or or are you know. Even I don't know if it's worse or is on the same level where you just get a bunch of likes. What good is okay like? I mean that's not a critique critique okay so you liked it will what what did you like about. Tell me what resonated for you and. That's that's useful. You know I had this interesting mentor. When I was first learning photography he was My Dad was a physician and one of his patients was a minister. His name was father vintner and he was a photographer an avid photographer. And he did something really interesting he would take my negatives ebbs and print them and then on the back of these prints he would type a little critique it was really I still have them tight in. They didn't even handwrite them. But his critiques were spot on there. Were like you know what would have happened. If you've stepped a little closer and he was right. You know it was. I was too far back in the frame and it didn't. It didn't highlight the subject and so it wasn't just like I like this. I don't like that. He gave me some spot on on points that I could make a change with and I think the answer to your question is if you can find yourself in a situation where the community will give you real feedback and you can do something with that feedback. That's really important in writing my books. For instance I send in a in a finalizing before doing my final edit. I send a copies up to Beta readers and it's a whole variety of them. Some of them. I know very well and I really trust them in summer. I don't know these people but I don't care because I want to get feedback from the audience. I need a cross section and I really look at their comrades and I take them to heart. Even if it's I don't necessarily agree with it but I'm I'm getting some feedback like I don't really understand what you just said. There are well. That's an important point if they didn't understand it maybe I didn't explain it well enough or maybe maybe I missed something out. Here's a perfect example. I was talking about analogue photography darkroom and you know to me is just so commonplace. Place that I assumed everybody knew what a negative was. I mean you know I know it negatives are and it's hard to believe that somebody would do you know what a coffee cut is or a glass of water but that hey especially in the digital world somebody. One of the Beta readers said what's the negative What what do you now? So I not only describe it but I showed an example of what am I photographs with as a negative thirty five millimeter strip of film home with rockets on it boom on the left side side of the page and the right side what it looked like when it was printed hand really describe what what that process was us in a read it again. Oh I get it now I go. You're talking about so. That's the kind of feedback you want you you want honest critique or notes that then cause you to do something or not I mean I don't I don't have a knee-jerk reaction an if somebody definitely people gave me suggestions. I didn't follow fine but at least I have. You know I put it out there to the world and gotten something back and now I have a better understanding and a better idea. how it's resonating or not with that community so look for that kind of community that can give you definite positive critiquing or notes and that's my best advice. That's not always easy to find. But that's where you should be looking so from from all these interviews. You didn't in putting together the book. What insights did you gain about your own creativity? Wow that is a really good question. I need to follow my own number for one. I need to do these things that that I have owned and found from talking to people that that that added to their creativity. I get I get stuck like everybody else. I beat myself up like everybody else. But because I've I've got a framework I can pull myself out of it and this is really important because you know the the biggest point of that stifles your creativity Eh is being basically you have a purpose you you want to write a poem you WanNa write a essay you want to write a book you WanNa take a series of photographs you WanNa make a film whatever it is you want to cook a great meal you know it's as simple as that and what can happen is something pushes back against an In causes that purpose to get blunted and as soon as your purpose gets blended the life just drains out of you. You just WANNA give up. We've all been there and Iraq. I can recognize that happening and go wait a minute. Don't just followed through this thing like like at some sort. Of course that have to go through over the waterfall and fall down and hit the rocks below. I can stop. Go Way Cirque. You know. Don't buy into that crap and that's really important. That's keeping you know kind of keeping my head on this thing and that's kind of an extreme stream point but I think more on a day-to-day level. It's just taking a look at how. How can I add creativity to whatever it is? I'm doing and here's a good example. I need to market my book more while okay. Let's find some creative ways to do that. What are what are the things I really need need to do to find more people who are interested in the subject can? Obviously there's a lot of people were interested in creativity so it's just a matter of reaching them and telling a story and hopefully getting them interested in it but those are some of the kind of day to day things that I that I utilize out of the book. Yeah for me. The writing that we spoke about earlier is really really helps Because I I find that I write about what the process felt like when I was making taking the photographs. We're having a great day where there was struggling whether I felt like make great pictures whether they all sucked and writing down what I was feeling and what I experienced and why just give me a greater understanding of my own process and so when those feelings came up I had a I had a better understanding of what was is going on and it it helped me to not give so much weight to those negative feelings because when you just I feel them and if you've been feeling them all your life they've dictated a bunch of actions that aren't conducive to being creative but when you sit down and write it down you're kind of able to to take a step back and that allows me the toward of take that beat between kneeling it. Yeah neither acting the way I've always acted or making alternative choice which the alternative choices going out and taking the picture or you know putting that first paragraph down on the page. There's something to be said for for creating that. Beat yes clean the feeling and whatever action. Yeah you take because you're making a choice. Every time we feel those feelings your choice. Either that'd be creative or not to be creative so you just gotta find yourself so th that little breathing room so you can make the choice that you really are hunkering to to make so true. Absolutely yeah those is tools to help you do that. There's no question about that. Those are those are really important tools to keeping your toolkit well my last question that I ask each guest. He's I asked them to recommend another photographer for listeners. To discover and explore on their own and it can be anyone. Someone you've long admired or someone you've recently discovered through that one photographer be and why well you know. We talked about early on Dan. Milner who I've known for for quite a while and we've done a we did some interviews back in two thousand ten. I think was my first interview with him and then over the last few months we've gotten to know each other a lot more and I really like not only is photography but I liked the way he explains what he does and I learned in a lot from him. He's now on my channels irregular is pretty much every week. Check him out because the guy. Here's the deal with Dan is he is no BS. He's straight shooter. He tells you what he runs into. He tells you how he solves. Those problems and his problems are pretty universal. You know his last you put up a starts off with all the mistakes he's made you know and and like who hasn't made okay these same mistakes so I really like him because he's a photographer but he's a great person is easy to to understand easy to listen to. You'RE GONNA learn a lot from him. One of the key things is he makes this point. A photograph isn't necessarily a stand alone item and many times. They are but what he tends to do. Is He's a storyteller so he puts together stories with his photographs and most of us At some point have to do that or want to do that. So it's really important to learn that journalistic approach to put together a linear story story. So he'll tell you how to do that so check out Dan and you'll find you're gonNA love him. He's it's on my channel easy to find. Yeah I interviewed him back in the early days of the show. So if people haven't listened to the interview she should check it out and hopefully someday soon now I'll have him back on the you will but mark thank you so much and and where can people find. Find your book the You can go to Amazon. That's always an easy way to I find it Type my name to Amazon 'em but make sure his fellow am IRC silver. I L B like boy E. R. or you can go to my channel you can go to my website silber studios dot com and either way. If you just just type my name into Google. You'll you'll see it either. In any case you'll see my videos on my books or mark thanks again. It's always a pleasure thank you. And and here's some more creativity for this New Year. That's coming up hey Thanks to mark for sharing his time in story with US find out more about him his book and his work by visiting his website. Silver Studios DOT COM. You can also support the show by writing review wherever you listen to podcasts. And even better if you really enjoy an episode spread the word via an email to a friend and a post on your social networks or word of mouth it makes all the difference so thanks for your support and being part of the community and check got our youtube channel where offer comments on photography submitted by TCI listeners. Who contributed candid frame flicker pool? Check out the flicker Paul and our youtube channel by clicking on the link in the show notes and the website. My latest book making photographs developing personal. Visual workflow is now available you can purchase it today and receive forty percent off off the list price when you order it from the rocking website. Use the Promo Code Perello forty at checkout to take advantage of the discount and received three copies visa my previously published e books by signing up for the candidate frame mailing list worship thoughts about life photography and keep you updated on events and remember you can support the show by contributing to our Patriot effort or donating through paypal. Now not all episodes may be available on your podcast APP of choice so to download listen and cheer any and all episodes of the candidate frame download the APP for Apple IOS and Android and because of your support. It's free the cannon frames audio engineers Martin Taylor who you can find her the other Martin Taylor Dot Com the show senior producer. He Cynthia Parker and our music is from Kevin mccloud royalty free music can be found at incompetent dot com and this is Ivorian X.. And this is the candidate standard for him

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