Be It Resolved: No One Is Illegal
I think it's time to this toxic binary Zeros some matte stock. We're not an imperial power where revolutionary power we are no longer in a world where you can plot out moves statesman to statesman like a chessboard. You don't know anything about my background and where it came from it, it doesn't matter to you because fundamentally on the mean white man, we can't do this to the next generation because a miracle will cease to exist. Welcome to the month debates podcast. Every episode we provide you with civil and substantive debate on the big issues of the day. Free of spin focused on the facts animated by smart conversation. To arm you the listener with enough enough. To make up your own mind. Today's debate. BE IT resolved? No one is illegal. A trump administration announces its decision on Daca ending the program that shielded hundreds of thousands of people from deportation good afternoon I put in place at zero tolerance policy illegal entry on our south whereas to board if you cross the southwest border unlawfully. Then, we will prosecute. That so One. To two weeks, we will hit three hundred miles of wall. Those are anti plates at top. On that makes it much more difficult when you get to the top because see these guys climbing up with drugs on their back. They look at the wall and they say, let's pass. Let's take a pass on. Hello I'm your moderator, Rudyard Griffiths well, a wall that now stretches three hundred miles along the US Mexico border the suspension of the dreamers program that shielded eight hundred thousand children born to undocumented migrants from deportation. The launch of a zero tolerance policy that separates unauthorized migrants from children. These are just some of the hallmarks of the immigration policy of the United States under President Donald Trump's administration tackling the growing number of unauthorized migrants estimated at many as twelve million. Currently in the United States was key to trump's election in two, thousand sixteen and his case for a second term. President really needs to show significant progress on one of if not the key issue that you know he thinks addison his reelection and if you have unauthorized migration levels at their highest point in thirteen years. The Nets a major political liability. Supporters of trump's immigration policies believed the rule of law must be paramount when deciding who gets to become a US citizen. They argue that illegal immigrants are queue-jumping making it harder for migrants who apply lawfully to enter the United States mass migration also destabilizing the border costing billions in social services and driving down wages for struggling blue collar workers. And even if it isn't specifically housing aid and food stamps. Taking advantage of free public schools of Free Public Health I. Am sure they realize more than the average American the more people competing for those made a nanny jobs, the more their wages go down. Critics of President Trump's immigration policies take issue with a very concept of migrant being legal. They say that unauthorized border crossings are eight civil violation not a criminal offense. Argue that a realistic and humane immigration policy needs to recognize that undocumented migrants are part of the fabric of America with more than two-thirds having lived in the United States for over ten years a fair and just immigration policy in America would recognize the vital role immigrants and their families play in the workplace in their communities in society at large. Here's Joe. Biden during the Democratic primary debates early last year. If you wish to answer should someone who is here without documents and that is his only offense should that person be deported that person should not be the focus of deportation we should fundamentally change the way we deal with. This installment of the Munk debates challenged the essence of these arguments by debating the resolution be it resolved? No one is a legal arguing for the motions Alan or founder of or immigration Washington DC. He's the immigration section chair for the National Bar Association in the United States and president elect of the American Immigration Lawyers Association where he is their national spokesperson. Arguing against the motion be resolved. No one is illegal is Reverend Samuel Rodriguez President of the National Hispanic Leadership Conference the world's largest Hispanic Christian organization he's been nominated as one of the world's one hundred most. People by Time magazine. He's also known as an advisor to President Trump Obama and Bush on immigration frequently consult with Congress on immigration issues and criminal. Justice reform. Alan Sam. Welcome to the Monkey Bay podcast. Thanks for having me likewise. Thank you for having me. I'm really looking forward to today's debate of all the kind of big issues that I think are top of mind as three hundred and thirty million Americans go to the polls. November immigration policy has to be one of those kind of critical issues I think it. It affects everything from the economy to some of our most treasured, moral and ethical principles and I think to have two people of your quality. You're standing you're. Caliber here to help us unpack the key arguments in this debate is a privilege indeed. So thank you. Again, what are we going to do is as we usually have on this podcast short opening statements that kind of give our listeners sense where you're both coming at In terms of this debate, we have a resolution before us be it resolved no one is illegal allan you're speaking in favor of the motion. So we're going to put two minutes on the clock and pass the proverbial microphone over to you. Please take us away. Thank, you be resolved that no one is illegal. A person cannot be illegal while certain. May Be criminal or illegal people cannot illegal and with this fundamental understanding that all humans have basic rights, it will lead us in the right direction for immigration conversation and how we treat our brothers and sisters from different lands. People may be undocumented. And they might have aided the United States without inspection people maybe living here without appropriate authorization but that does not in fact, make them illegal. People in others who used the term. To sort of state that someone is illegal is using it in a derogatory fashion to sort of devalue the life of that individual and their rights against others. We don't call pedestrians who crossed the street without the appropriate sign illegal pedestrians. Nor do we call kids who skipped school illegal kits and it's the very same parallel that we must control our language to say certain actions may not be appropriate but that does not disqualify those particular individuals and the conversation. As a lawyer is in fact, important to note that the Immigration and Nationality Act does not anywhere in it say the term illegal alien. It does use the term alien to speak about individuals who are not nationals in this country, but it does not use the term illegal alien illegal alien only became part of the lexicon of the legal department in this country and twenty eighteen to sorta further at flames to the fire of immigration conversation using such terms to humanizes immigrants and doesn't push America in. Congress. Towards a resolution with regards to the millions of people were living here without documentation. Lunch removing that stigma and we start talking about individuals and the documents they need. To achieve the right to remain here. Then, we can have a more fruitful conversation. Is, important to understand in this conversation, there are no lines. There are many individuals have been here for twenty years or more who under this conversation that claims they need to go home to start in a lot again, they were just. because. There's no route for them to achieve their citizenship, and as this country moves forward as sort of a young team country is time for us to understand the immigrants are the background in this country and what we need to continue to make this country. Great. Thank you. Allan thank you for those opening remarks were now going to go to Sam for his opening statement. Again, our resolution to remind our listeners today is be it resolved? No one is illegal. Sam You're arguing against our motion let's hear your opening arguments please. Well, I'm arguing against the motion sickness pertains to public policy advocacy or clarity definition. But as Christian I do agree that no human being can be deemed illegal. A person created in the image of God cannot be called illegal however, government does have. A commitment to the English vernacular, the responsibility to deem actions as illegal. For example individuals that come into this country legally. Be The conduit of our current law infrastructure. These individuals come in here legally you juxtapose them or you create a dichotomy with those that are not coming legally hence, they're not coming in legally they are coming in illegally and I do not believe that every single application of the phrase illegal immigrant seems to demean the Dimona or speak disparagingly or a condescending manner or diluting the value of that human beings worth as a person created in the image of God I believe it speaks to an action not to definition or the value of that individual. So the utilization of the term illegal immigrant, not the preferable choice for Reverend Samuel Rodriguez. Commented individuals. However, it does not speak to a collective intention of demeaning or devaluing the humanity of that undocumented immigrant. That is currently in this country. Thank you, Reverend. Sam. Let's go to a rebuttals here. Get a chance for both of you to kind of reflect on what you've heard in each other's opening statements and kind of push this debate forward. So Allen, is there a specific point that you'd like to take up from Sam's opening statement here to underline with the audience to support your contention that one is legal at the point was pretty clear in the conversation that he stated that the action that individual might have taken at some point Tom. was illegal but that doesn't make the individual illegal even with the Christian argument that he also applied that we must have a fundamental understanding that saying that these individuals are legal pushes the immigration conversation in a different way than sort of saying someone as undocumented and when you start talking about documentation, we start talking about solutions. Dot It. Let's go to Sam. Let's have your reaction to Allen's opening remarks are what he's just said now about how Call people vis-a-vis labels of illegal undocumented these things fundamentally madder the chairman documented not capture in essence. The legitimate sort of conversation we should be having what does that mean undocumented it did not mention anything does not reference anything regarding illegal entry into a nation that has every right to protect his border, a sovereign nation living in the Topa we're in a very difficult world a broken world for that matter. So it behooves is to protect the sovereignty of our borders to protect the sovereignty of our nation so. That are undocumented. That's sort of a grandiose and big US term. So when we talk about individuals that are here illegally we may have to. Rewrite the narrative. So instead of illegal immigrants, individuals that are here illegally. That may be better, but the term undocumented speaks nothing Tila gallery of law and to the fact that there are wonderful people coming in here legally and as a nation committed to protecting our safety and security, and as an individual committed to ending sex trafficking human trafficking at the border, we want to protect our border. We want people coming here legally. Thanks him. Okay. Let's get into the kind of us here on this debate about immigration that I think are top of mind for listeners and maybe start with you as the lawyer. How do you respond to people who say look there? There are tens of thousands of people and cannon the United States who've applied legally to enter the country they've filled out their applications they've queued up at foreign embassies, they paid their fees and they're. Sitting there waiting for their application to be processed while other people are proceeding to simply enter the country without any kind of application. How is that in any way just for those tens of thousands of people who have behaved in a way that respects the laws of the country to which they wish to belong. So jokingly, I say, you mean like Christopher Columbus but sort of in response to that there's no sort of binary choice you can. Grant them all the right to be here it isn't a choice of these people are those people are dishonor that law and that's very close minded sort of conversation. It could be everyone because there needs not be lot because we have a shortage of individuals here. So therefore, the inefficiencies of the administration in running the immigration system should not hurt individuals who also potentially have rights to be here that have been here for a long time we. Must also remember that half of the people who are currently here undocumented came in documented and then overstay their visas. So therefore does the analysis sort of changed with someone sort of interesting country legally and they overstay their visa. Are they different than someone who is undocumented? No, it becomes a conversation about documentation and the greatest way to address this problem as a community and of the nation is to talk about documentation to move in that direction. So, Sam, comeback in that Era Hispanic Americans. So you're working as a pastor with a variety of communities. As you said, you're involved in the border around issues of sex trafficking and the exploitation of minors I mean, what is your view on how we approach this? Morally. What do we do to these people that are showing up at the border who have nothing except the clothes on their backs and they are looking to your country to America four opportunity for simply a meal on the table to feed them and their families why should we respond to this crisis morally as opposed to legally With great deference to my friend, Allen is not just an issue documentation at. Legality, but it's an issue likewise. Alan. I would probably agree on this of morality I am Pro Legal Immigration I. Do believe like Alan believes that the immigrant community is not a burden I think the immigrant community may be very well be America's greatest blessing that twenty percent jury I worked with this community I pass through this community. Our churches are build individuals that are undocumented throughout our congregations. So it's arguably one of the most hardest working communities in America without a doubt I live in California twelve fourteen hour workdays in the agricultural sector in the Central Valley on Route Ninety nine and California bless. People indeed, and by the way, God fearing that loved their families. So it breaks my heart to see individuals coming in here illegally I. The vast majority ninety, nine point, nine percent of them are not coming in here to do America. Any harm or any damage they come for a better day for their children and your children's children it breaks my heart, but they need to come here legally it's the rule of law. The opposite of the rule of law is anarchy put this in perspective I'm a Californian and during Calvin, the governor issued a number of decrees about certain things we can and cannot do. However, you can't say these laws apply here but by the where we're going to look the other way while thousands and millions come over our border without respecting the law illegally, there has to be a clear application of the law across the board. The conversation need to be having is, what do we do with bill currently your undocumented and I do believe that we should be pushing advancing just like we've done I worked with President Bush in advance immigration reform. I. Worked with President Obama in advancing immigration reform and now believe it or not working with. President trump and trying to find immigration reforms loose. So we want to bring legality or better yet legalizing those that are currently here undocumented while simultaneously securing the border and making sure those that come into future come here legally that's the best prescription wanted the American electorate and the American community will embrace. Thanks Him Alan. Do you feel that someone who comes to the American southern border WHO's in urgent? Humanitarian need has a greater kind of human right that allows them to transit that border into the United States from Mexico without having performed an violates American law. I would argue to you under the current law, the individual who's applying for asylum at the southern border is no different than the rich national who's applying for business visa and embassy abroad, and they should be treated with the same respect and due process under law. The problem is that now our immigration system says individuals of a higher social class have more value than individuals who are. Now applying southern border and it becomes a thing about numbers. So therefore, if it was just a smaller number people who needed help and sort of weren't in a disarray because their country's falling apart that now be okay. But because there's thousands of them in a country where there are three hundred million plus people that becomes problematic for the administration of our law to process these cases appropriately. Some twelve hundred on the move from Central America and Cuba marching toward the US southern border. This as a border patrol had to shut down also Texas checkpoints why there were. So overwhelmed agents could not properly process other asylum-seekers. and. Five thousand additional troops are preparing to head of the US Mexico border to keep thousands of migrants from entering the country. From Central America especially on Dudas and have been here for months waiting for their asylum requests to play out in a clogged up us. System. and. So we meet her them and keep them outside of the country for two to three months at our border, not providing them with any food any healthcare we just say wait until your turn. So therefore, we create a problem where then individuals who are are surviving for their lives are someone please take me across the motorway. The problem with the current administration immigration debate is we want to make everybody illegal right people who've been here TPS deferred action. People have been here for twenty years. The concept is support them all and when you have twenty million individuals to deport and a constitutional budget that only allows for four hundred, thousand, a number that has not been reached under any of the administration's that he spoke about before it becomes problematic to say deportation of the answer. So then it becomes about documentation and we have seen under Reagan that there was a chance to sort of make people become documented this country. I supported this bill. I believe in the idea of amnesty for those who have put down roots in lived here. Even though some time back, they may have entered illegally. And that's a better solution. Once you sort of deal with making the legal process work pursuant to what the economic processes and to the human humanitarian call. Then you won't have these problems that people showing up at the border. Okay Sam come back on this because what Allen's basically saying here just to summarize that there's a way to reconcile or a line three separate crises that are going on a humanitarian crisis at the border let's say an economic crisis in terms of a shortage of labor and people were willing to do the jobs that many migrants do like picking vegetables in the valleys of central California, and then finally a kind of illegal crisis, a crisis of the lack of the application of laws fairly unjustly to these internal populations of undocumented migrants I mean just pull the band aid off get these three crises resolved all at once. And just make these twenty odd million people in the country legal citizens and be done with it. I. Do agree the Immigration System in America's completely broken I do agree we need a system where we streamline and it's equally applicable across the board as it pertains who comes in. I do not agree with this exclusive myopic way of thinking that the only immigrants that America should welcome into this nation are highly educated highly skilled. I disagree with that I think it needs to be reflective not necessarily in Australia system looking at the Canadian system, which is primarily Khanate Canada and Australia merit with a little chunk for compassion I. Think that chunk of humanitarian compassion should be large it should be equal with the highly skilled highly educated. But if we look at twenty million individuals or here currently undocumented I, don't believe every single individual war on this planet has a God given right to come to America we are a sovereign nation, and that right is extended in the conduit of legal mechanisms. Does that are currently here undocumented I believe week we can, and we should as expeditiously as possible legislatively speaking not be the conduit of executive Fiat. We should find a solution one that deport those that are engaged in nefarious activities, deport them immediately the ninety nine. Point nine percent rest of the undocumented individual community in America. Let's look at them. Let's find a way to legalize them. Let's get them a green card I offered that solution to President Obama and I offered it to president trump matter of fact, I said years. Dissolution Republicans would definitely agree Democrats may balk at, but let's have been Greek arts. Let's do away with the issue of citizenship for a moment. Let's legalize them where they are here in America, in perpetuity, their children should not pay for their sins. Their children should become American citizens we do that secure the border, the vast majority of America's would sign off we. Conservatives will sign off. I believe the majority of Democrats would sign off and we would have a better day and do away with via nizing a community at has created in the image of God came over because they want to do better things they want health and security and safety for their children the Children's children, but we can do in a comprehensive and that reconciles even political spheres around an issue that I do believe transcends politics. Thinks him. Okay. So this is getting interesting. Let's try to push this debate a little bit towards what is possible maybe not perfect. But what is possible and Alan your take on let's say a deal like that where instead of making people citizens, you paper them with documentation to the extent that they can function in the economy legally and then you shut down the southern border you in a sense, stop the flow of undocumented migrants across the border new migrants into the United States is that something they use think would meaningfully address legal crisis in America right now as long as those home conditions are the same. GonNa continue to look for other places. So I think starting in any conversation that says southern border rather than all borders is problematic because that's sort of going to specific spectrum. It doesn't seem like due process to say everybody before you has a right to acclaim but now you don't have a right to claim because you just do late in time although the rules are the same. So say were no longer taking us out and cases anymore, which doesn't seem to be a smart thing with the actual population concerned that we have now in the job market that we have right now I'm sort. Of giving people illegal way to come in. Then it's going to be sort of a replica just creating another underground system. So for some of my clients having the right to be here in work without being deported enough citizenship does it really add anything when you've been in a country for twenty years and you never could vote I don't need to make that decision today for those individuals. I think the answer should be go for as much as we can and see where we end up with Justice and liberty and mercy at equity but if people were able to go to work pay their taxes. A normalization of the system would be enough for many people who are here without documentation that is a great solution I think. Okay Sam. You're advising president trump on immigration issues. I. Mean. He seems an awful long way right now from this type of conversation about giving undocumented. Migrants in America. The necessary green card, whatever it is to integrate legally into the economy that seems to be far from what is on the table right now in terms of the Republican offer for meaningful immigration reform. Listen I've had conversations with President trump on this issue, and I was there at the White House when the president looked at me and said, he said Sam how about this I want you to go over to speak to the speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi. He said Sam how about if I do more for dreamers than President Obama. Jaw dropped and that's when he unveiled the plan to increase the number of individuals that would be covered in a proposal that he laid out before the Democratic House Republican majority Senate this President put the tweets aside here for a moment as it pertains the dreamers as it pertains to finding a solution, there was an opportunity to work with Congress. In exchange for securing the southern border that would have brought legality make citizens not just green cards citizens of every single dreamer. Amazing. Hoping to bridge the ideological gap with a compromise they arrived at the White House of Wednesday evening Democratic House leaders, Nancy Pelosi and Senate leader Chuck Shumar short time. Later, they heralded a landmark deal they've made with the Republican president to create a law allowing more than eight hundred thousand children of illegal immigrants to stay in the United States or did they the next morning on twitter Donald Trump said from his point of view there was no deal on the program known as Dhaka. and. Because of political partisanship, it did not take place. I am open to the idea that this administration will actually consider if we remove citizenship to table, it's about citizenship. There's a political equation abetted here, and this is an issue voters. There is angst in fear that if citizenship is included within any proposal and that's why immigration report has stalled numbers it about elections, it means x number of new. Democrats in in the world of those that are involved in immigration reform conversations, and if we removed from the table, we can bring a legal status to these individuals they stop hiding in the shadows and they could drive here in American society with the exception of being able to vote I. believe that we have opportunity with this administration to negotiate such a deal because I've had these conversations with this administration. So Allen. What's your take on the current administration? Maybe more importantly does candidate Biden have a better policy prescription for immigration as it relates to the issues that we've just discussed today So, think Biden is the exact polar opposite of everything on the trump policies with regards to treating and returning to remain system and trying to do it with Congress's help. So therefore, the Biden hairs administration hairs, herself being data of an immigrant background as everyone in the country has her a little bit closer to her time of being as a strong foundation and she's been strong on. Immigration for a very long time in the Senate as well as in. California. So those are good things ahead contrary to everything the rub in spoke of sets the president initially stepped in office. He has done everything to deport in to make more individuals undocumented in this country at the time of this podcast today in the ninth circuit, they have just made a class of people who have. Been here for twenty years under temporary protected status because the conditions of their country now undocumented in six months, which means they need to leave and return to their home country unless the by administration changes them his very first act was to in Dhaka right and the conversation while I wasn't there that was had with Nancy Pelosi was can we save this class of maybe not hundred thousand? Individuals at the cost of their parents and the other twelve to thirteen million individuals. So that's problematic and that's not really a solution. You sort of say I'll give you five for a million and is a greater perspective than that because when you sort of look at the president's current policies, they are sort of directed at Brown and black communities with regards to travel bans deportation and also confinement. Most of the individuals who are now in these immigration detention centers or Haitian or black all of those things or facts that have happened recently that sort of speaks to trucks, band and sort of even winning election was this concept of fear. Your brother is this constant concept of saying someone is illegal and therefore that creates fear in the individuals. These were our brothers and sisters, right? They can help were born and they might not be able to help the situation that they said brought to the United States. But as a country, we can address this and that's a failure both parties. That's where I do agree the reason that immigration does not have a solution today is not the CASA president trump and it's also not because of President Obama, it is because of Congress Congress has failed to do what is needed to be done for over two decades. That's the problem. House Speaker Paul Ryan reminded reporters Republicans Still Control Congress and write the legislation have you asked the president to at least check with you before he makes an agreement with them branch. We have not begun negotiations. What we're doing is talking with ourselves here in our majority to make sure that we're all on the same page yourselves before we proceed all of these things. So, Sam come on this ounce laid out a pretty scorching indictment here a president trump in terms of in effect, racial izing immigration policy, and targeting visible minorities for incarceration removal impoverishment yet you still I read between the lines here but I I think you're saying you're GonNa vote for him come November third. I'm not, GONNA. I'm not gonNA share who Ibope replied Ne Nevertheless I can tell you this two things. Allen receives from a big evangelical a men on this is an issue. The onus falls on Congress Congress has failed miserably on this issue miserably more than the executive branch, its legislative branch in America without a doubt the onus falls on them but as it Pertains to labeling president trump as it pertains to his immigration policies with ratio or racist tendencies. Again, I can tell you firsthand from conversations. I've had with the President I was there when we have a smile on his face, he said, SAM, we're GONNA get one, point six, million, nine, hundred, thousand, rigging, expand the number of dreams that will become citizens like this. Never, ever sacrificing their parents and met with General Kelly Secretary Nielsen when back to Congress and met with Speaker. Pelosi. It was a starting point of a Bible conversation that may have bought about immigration report, but it never took place because of the actions of my friend Speaker Pelosi and senator. Schumer unfortunately, you talking about President Trump's rhetoric which I do not necessarily completely perfectly agree with however why did President Trump get elected? He got elected because the American populace including a significant portion of. Individuals voted for Obama two, thousand and eight, hundred, thousand and twelve voted for president trump because they thought the previous administration went too far even as pertains to immigration a went too far in not applying the rule of law, you can't permit the borders to be opened and let people come here illegally and then ask Americans to follow the law within the confines of their border. Within their state borders, it doesn't work like that and the American community said, we're GONNA push back the pendulum. So it's not a matter of racist rhetoric. It's a matter of the rule of law. Can we apply the rule of law? Equally, if we have laws, let's apply them if not, let's change the laws but let's not permit millions of individuals to break the law, and then we are to act like that law was never broken. There are consequences to breaking the law and that's what I believe. It's the trump administration's rhetoric regarding immigration recall. Thanks. Sam. Okay, WE'RE GONNA move to closing statements in a moment but just WanNa take one more kind of political slice of the Pie here and Alan. What do you think is GonNa. Surface of all the different controversies that we've discussed from the border itself undocumented people in the United States to the idea of a point system to assess people coming in what do you think's GonNa? Surface is the number one immigration issue going into November third. So based on the polls, the number one immigration issue for voters that are in the middle someone who can change their voter independent has been the treatment of children at the southern border to SORTA persuade people to vote for Democratic ticket. So with regards to immigration and the global stage, the world is in shambles and in need of grace and a blessing in direction from the church to say if you see someone in. Need. The answer is not to turn your shoulder and think that people are going to be moved and return perhaps, and that sort of American principle of we can do anything. We put our mind to we're trying to go to Mars and you're telling me we can't saw a problem with a couple of thousand people at the southern border. Even the Reverend said that walked thousands of miles to get to the border, and then when they're the border, we're going to turn them away without even giving them due process or making sure they have a safe return and that's the same children and adults we look at the detention centers and we see the inhumane treatment over and over again. The rapid spread of cove it in these detention centers are sort of what speaking to that populous that sort of in the middle to sort of do this vote. So there are two things that are going to happen part of it is the Democrats have to be mobilized, and it's GonNa be a greater issue than just immigration immigration is going to be at the platform of it and I think the other side of it is just sort of for the other side to say, you know what this is not to be our. This is not who will ever be sure people don't have a right to be here and sure we're not about open borders, but we are humane and. There's due process and asylum is a proper way to the United States in every one of those individuals gets due process in the resolve of that is whatever the finding is from. The judge is the finding of will follow because the conversation we didn't have today, which I think is a big problem is that in our immigration justice system, the immigration court is part of the police and the all work for the Attorney General. So therefore, the attorney general sets out what justices and has consistently twice, which has never happened in the ten years that followed the attorney general has gone back and overruled something that a judge has done and made new principles and policies which impact our community. Thanks, Alan. So Sam what's your prediction as to you know the issue admitted give us a two views one because you're working with a large Hispanic community as a as a pastor what's number one issue for them but also what do you think is going to surface before November third as the the defining ballot question when it comes immigration for the country as a whole it recent pew research really brings. Out of very ironic truth regarding the Hispanic. American community Hispanic Americans are in favor of legal immigration but oppose by majority illegal immigration how `Bout that Latino Americans, Hispanic Americans what's going to be the immigration issue that will determine the election open borders amnesty or the rule of law. People coming in here legally or people coming in here illegally those voters for Minnesota Wisconsin Michigan Pennsylvania Ohio Nevada Arizona Florida north. Carolina? These workers working up there they're going to say wait a second. Biden. Harris ticket reflects this open borders amnesty the trump ticket looks at. Legal entry. And again, because president trump did make an offer regarding the dreamers. It's a firewall against the idea that president trump is anti immigrant period president trump and the trump administration or anti illegal immigration. So that will determine the election as it pertains to the immigration reform debate I. Think we're GONNA be surprised by the number of Latino last time twenty to thirty percents supported president trump. This time around numbers right now indicate somewhere between thirty four and thirty seven percent. So Ladies and gentlemen going to be an interesting election immigration would be an integral part of it and I do look forward to having more spirited debates around the subject matter indeed. You're listening to the munk debates podcast. If you like this podcast kickout, other episodes including debates on everything from the US election to the future of globalization to whether the scientific community has reacted to the threat of Cova. All three to download or stream on our website. Munk debates. Dot Com. While this has been. A terrific debate. So let's move to closing statements. We're GONNA do those in the opposite order of the opening statements. So Sam Europe I what are the key points that you want this audience to take away from your debate with Allen today as they grapple with their own moral ethical economic political understanding of this issue. Immigrants are not a burden. They are a blessing. Immigrants have been a blessing from the beginning of this nation. Without a doubt we want people to come here legally not illegally. We need immigrants not just because of our economic sectors, we need immigrants in order to enrich the spiritual and moral compass of this nation we need to go beyond the political rhetoric on both the left, and the right we need to look at a comprehensive solution to address those that are currently here. Undocumented that will bring to the galaxy and bring citizenship to every single dreamer. Without exception, we need to legalize their parents have a green card do away with the issue of citizenship or their parents take that away from the table provide a comprehensive immigration reform solution. That future entry continues we need to continue to be a nation of immigrants not just married at base merit based plus compassion. If we do that, we will enrich the soul of this nation going forward into twenty-first-century. Thank you. Sam. IMPASSIONED WORDS WE appreciate Alan, we're going to give you the last word on our debate. BE IT resolved? No one is illegal. You've been arguing in favour of the motion. Let's have your summing up. So I think that we agree that we will stop using the sort of lexicon to define people by an act and sort of move forward in a different direction and talk maybe even if imperfect about undocumented individuals in solutions and in doing that, we sort of understand that it's not just the president we need to focus on but it's also congress and we make sure they know that this is not a political ball to be kicked from year to year because these are about our communities and it should be addressed. So sort of focusing on Congress in pushing them to make these difficult decisions so that People can have a foundation to live their lives on a daily basis. I think we also have an understanding that is inappropriate and equitable to ask individuals who've been in this country for twenty years to leave just because it makes us feel better and the concept that there is some sort of line because there's really no equity in that, there's no justice in that and there's no humanity in that and so by understanding those terms and understanding that we're talking about people in our community, we can reach more humane solution with regards to a problem that we created by not addressing us in Congress and give. Well Alan Sam look I think if this conversation, this debate today could be evocative and exemplar for the type of national conversations. We need not just the United States but in Canada and across Europe on this this big issue immigration that affects us all I think we would all be better off. So thank you for the substance, the civility and the willingness to listen to each other and engage with each other in our debate today it's greatly appreciated by our audience. Thank you both. Thank you. Thank you. While that wraps up today's debate on what to think our participants, Reverend, Samuel Dribs, and eleanor. You certainly gave us a lot to think about while the munk debates podcast. As you've just heard, is that special place for civil and substantive debate on the big issues of the day Dylan more debates on everything from the latest developments on Covid nineteen the major issues that will decide the outcome of the US election. The big ideas like the future of human progress visit our website triple W., munk debates, dot com. You can also find detailed show notes on today's debate. Thank you for helping us bring back the art of public. Debate, one conversation at a time I'm your moderator Rudyard Griffiths. 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