#1738 Case Study: NatureBox and the viability of the subscription model
Freedom fighters. My name is Andrew Warner. I'm the founder of mixer g where I interview entrepreneurs about how they built their businesses. When one big milestones for me with mixer g was actually charging my audience having a subscription service. And the reason it was a mouse donors for a couple of reasons before then everybody loved me like really they love me doing these interviews for free. I was breaking my back really doing it not making any money, they loved it. And then once I started charging and especially on a subscription basis. People are really frustrated in the comments all over the place where pretty pretty mean, the whole idea was information wants to be free. And then suddenly I saw it newspapers were charging the New York Times. I think came after me for charging their audience in the now every publication decided that they need to charge for something and good on them caught onto it a little bit late. But I'm glad they're doing it. So when I came to today's interview I was super excited. This is going to validate what I always believed, which is everything should be on the subscription basis, or every business should at least have it. And I was so prepared to like drive that point home through my. Guest. And then I started researching, and I saw an article where he's basically at the lay off a bunch of people company where he said, you know, this whole subscription thing that we've been going for. It's actually not it's not getting us to the finish line festers on crazy for it. We're not able to make the killing that Andrew Warner thinks we're making we're gonna sell individual products. Why what happened? And then why does he still have a subscription? How's it working some fascinated? All right. I should actually introduced guest before I introduced the concept should night. Gotham Gupta is the founder of naturebox. Naturebox is healthy and delicious snacks delivered right to your door reference. And I'm sure a bunch of times here mixture G interviews because I thought of them as a subscription service. It doesn't. I'm so glad that they're doing healthy snacks. I wanna find out what happened to the business started. How he's growing it how he's got sales at really are amazing before and after he made his change. We're gonna do it. All thanks to phenomenal companies. The first hates when I call them an Email marketing company, but I need to introduce them somehow and let you know that they do more than this. Do you wanna do Email marketing, I'm gonna tell you later why you should sign up for active campaign, and the second is a company that's been doing so much work with me that you people are saying why talk about them so much because works my audience. I guess it's called top towel. Tell you about them later to first Gotham good tabby here. Thanks for having me purchase. What's you're looking at? We just cut you off as being nice. What's your revenue, sir? What is your revenue at naturebox? So edgy. I mean what I can tell you is tens of millions of dollars in revenue. You know, we the businesses gone through a lot of ups and downs. But you know, we're a real brand millions of customers across the country. Those are sort of metrics that I can disclose tonight C at when I saw a Recode interview with you from March twenty a teen after you did a little bit of layoffs. I could've sworn that. They oh see what it is. It's sixty million in funding not sixty million in revenue, but at the time once you doing forty fifty million dollars in subscription. Yeah. It was a very healthy business. It is a healthy business. You know, we're we're kind of proud of where we we're. So just to be clear that. Yeah. That you just said to me is not yet. Andrew, you're. I'm confirming the number you just spit out. But it's like, yeah. Right. I I'm not trying to trap you into giving something that you don't want. But I don't want my audience think Andrew just got him. He gave the number when that's not what happened, right? I asked you was it round fifty six right age. And you said, yeah, I'm not gonna tell you, right. Not. Yes. Right. Ball. I'm okay with it. I think I've got a good sense of where the business is are you guys profitable? Now not profitable yet have made a ton of progress towards profitability. Okay. And is my characterization of what happened right that you started out as a healthy, snack company, focus on subscriptions. Now. You've changed to selling digital products with a subscription a healthy subscription component in my right. Yeah. I think you look injury would what we started out wanting to build great products and sell them to the consumer. When we started. We thought the right way to do that was via subscription. I think what we realized was consumers didn't care that. It was subscription that wasn't a value proposition to the consumer. It was great for the business -ality was consumers when they buy stacks. It's an impulse driven decision. Right. You don't sit around thinking about what you're gonna snack next. And you know, how many snacks you have in the pantry. And so we realized as we have start selling the product the way the consumer wanted to live product right late. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm kind of caught up in your business. Because. I do buy a lot of impulse next. But I never go online to buy impulse next. Would I line is healthy snack saying to myself next? I'd just had chips this morning chips or some other snack from Starbucks in my building earlier today. I now think next week the same issues going to happen. I better get some healthy snacks in the office. And when it comes to healthy snacks. That's the way. I think ahead of time. Not not the other way, am I uniquely in that way? I think you would be super unique O'Reilly the majority of Americans when they think about a snack. It's because they're hungry and they're trying to satisfy immediate need. And so, you know, the online component. What what we decided was subscription ended up. You know, we'd send this ox tear. You get the product, but it would just start piling up. Right. Because a lot of your snack consumption happens outside of the home. You might have already purchased next by the time the box got there at cetera. We thought look subscription isn't really value prop to the consumer. They're not buying it. Because it subscription the right? Because it's unique product could we take away the subscription barrier? A make it easy for the consumer to purchase and could that work as a business, right? Anat was really the these around moving away from subscription. Let's get an understanding of how you came up with this idea one of things that I read a few times. And I think you talked producer about was the euro BC's a kid I've seen photos of you allot, you don't strike me as someone who was ever overweight. How how big were, you know? I appreciate that. So I was about seventy pounds heavier than I am today. And throughout really growing up. So so throughout high school in even earlier I had terrible nutrition and eating habits. I ate a lot of junk food did all the things that people tell you not to do. Right. A drink sugary drinks. A lot of junk food candy at cetera on and then a light bulb turn on. I said I've really got to change my life. I started learning about nutrition cut all the sugary drinks out. All the junk food, all the candy and in six months, lost seventy pounds on pretty much maintained that weight ever since a six months, you're also working at venture firm general catalyst, and you threw them saw how businesses like like, the honest company. Yeah, we're doing what did you learn from watching them that helped inform your founding of naturebox will, you know, the the eye opening thing for me about the honest company was the way brands or being built today is so different than ten or twenty years. Right. If you think about what the consumer wants, they want things that speak to their values. Right. So they want things that are natural healthy, you know, just things that are more sustainable, right speak to the sort of values that consumers have these days. The second is the way you reach that consumer is dramatically different. Right. It's not as much TV advertising as is online and through a SEM Facebook advertising cetera and third is the way that you really build a reputation with the consumer has changed its through influencers now through online reviews things like that. And so I kind of looked at that and said, wow, like every brand is going to have to deal with the fact that the way you build a brand today so much different. And some you brands can sprout up and compete with every brand that you see on the the retail store shelf. And I had this passion around food is over combined. Those two things to come up with the idea for naturebox general catalyst think. Backed the honest company in twenty twelve right at the end of your time with them. You're there already for about eight years. What were you doing there? So, you know, I I was really lucky I joined general catalyst as an undergrad wallows in college. I spent a couple years interning for the firm and then joined them fulltime after graduation, and I was the youngest guy on the team. So I take it, you know, kind of anything that that I needed to get done. But primarily the job was to talk two thousand entrepreneurs year and surface, the most interesting ones so that we could go in and find Mesfin opportunity. How did you go? Find in talk to them. Yes. So, you know, all kinds of different things listening to at the time. There was much interest podcast, but reading the news right in seeing what companies reading talked about on the news going conferences, seeing what companies were presenting conferences, all kinds of different ways. And it was really kind of job. Right. Getting in front of the telling our story of what? General catalyst was all about hearing their needs and trying to figure out move away that we could add value. And so it was an amazing job. I talked to probably six or seven thousand entrepreneurs over the course of eight years there, which was just an incredible education. Like, I don't know anywhere else. You can get that that education. What did you learn I feel like I'd be really good at that? Because I loved talknet people having United it. I love it. The the downside is I love talking to people so much that I don't think that I process like I am not valuating more in the moment when Meyer bencher capitalist. Marc sue strife seen him. He's so good. He's from front benchers. He so good as he's talking to you really understanding you, but also being able to our ticky late to other people what he's understood about you and your business. I I'm guessing that just comes naturally to him. But also from talking and learning from so many businesses you've you've had you've had both of those. What did you learn from talking to people that you can share with us about how to process allies? Yeah. I mean. I think probably the biggest thing was you go into these conversations. And I try to do this today when I talked to an entrepreneur, you gotta go into these conversations, assuming that, you know, nothing right? Because I think if you have a belief in your mind of how the business should worker what the right strategy is in this market. You end up just turning off what ends up being really, creative novel ideas. Right. And so I try to go into conversations not assuming anything, right? I assume that I know nothing about the category. And I really just ask a lot of questions. Right. Everything from hey, how'd you come up with this idea? Like what drew you into this? Why is this strategy the right strategy, not this, you know, why this competitor competitor doing differently? So I think probably the one thing that I you know, I took away a lot from general catalyst there for a long time. The one thing is you ask a lot of questions, and sort of -ssume that, you know, nothing right? Like, so I can do that. I do that. But. Then in really, frankly, the assume that you know, nothing and be okay. Talking and asking questions that you should know the answer to it seems so easy. I watched so many conversations here in San Francisco there bunch of people who don't know what they're talking about. They're too afraid to to admit that. And as a result the conversation is a bozo conversation. It takes a little bit of guts to say. I actually don't understand what you mean by blockchain. I don't understand how this fits in an to an even if you know little bit to admit, the part that you don't own set of joint force in the part that you know. But so I don't wanna over. I don't want to overlook that. But when you're analyzing them, what are you looking for when you come into this with like this tourist mine? How do you know what to analyze to tell you who's going somewhere? And what idea makes sense? Yeah. I think you're looking at first principles, right? Your reasoning from first principles. You're looking for ideas and strategies that make sense, right? You're putting yourself in the in the shoes of the customer and saying, hey, if I was getting pitch this idea as a potential. Does this all make sense? Does it line up right on? I think you're looking for clarity in value prop, right? Does the entrepreneur? Can the entrepreneur explain what they're doing? And why it's important, right? You looking for for sort of also be ability for that entrepreneur to take people who might not have exposure to that idea or to that market and explain to them, right? Like get them excited about the company because at the end of the day, what that entrepreneur has to go out and do not just sell investors itself customer, sell us, etc. Cetera. And so I think those are some of the things that you're looking for when you have those conversations, you know, I also looking to see doesn't make sense in the world as I imagine it in five years. I, you know, from my perspective, I think nobody has a crystal ball would I look for is is the value proposition. Crystal clear, right. And even though I might not be the target demographic. Could I put myself in the shoes of the customer in understand? Why they would want to buy this. Okay. So you had an opportunity to see people do it. Well, do a poorly people get invested people. Not when it was time for you to pitch naturebox. You didn't just go out there and start to pitch it in talk about it. I don't think what ice on my research was a bunch of a bunch of articles about you talking about how how you tested tested before even talk to people in general catalyst. Absolutely, we so my co-founder night came up with this idea in the fall of twenty eleven and we thought, hey, we think this is cool idea. But we don't know if anyone else is gonna buy this, or is gonna think this is as cool ideas, we do, and we thought okay, how do we know test? This not knowing anything about food how to create a product anything like that. We said, well, the easiest thing we can do is put a landing page up hook it up to pay pal. See if people will go to the landing page, click on papal and from there actually give. Money. Right. And so we did that. And we started driving traffic to the badge within a weekend. We had a hundred people actually sign up and pay for their first naturebox. And this was a big moment for us because within a weekend, we have we felt like we had validation that other people like the idea on number one. But number two in probably the scariest part of this is like a hundred people had bought a product that didn't exist, and we didn't know how to make the product. Right. I am. And so that was really the scary moment where we said OSHA, we'd better like figure this out we either need to refund their money, or we got them himself thing. And when do the ASO being two kids that grew up in suburbs? We sat around thinking where can we get food and we looked in? We said, well, Costco. So we we drove to Costco, sold up two shopping carts of Kirkland brand. Snacks went back to my Arment repackage them into bags that said naturebox on them, and that was the first shipment so bags we actually printed out stickers that we stopped onto your bags of. It was very Janke. You know, like sort of the first box. I feel very bad for the people that bought that first box because furious will you know, they could purchase snacks Cosco. It wasn't anything unique. It probably took too long to get to them because we were literally packing. These things nights and weekends. Every night. We came over work. I'd just be packing backs was a subscription service. They were meeting to twenty bucks a month to get this healthy subscription. How did you get a hundred people where did you buy the ads? What was so mazing about your ads that worked where most people's add sock? Yes. Oh, my founders background was in online advertising. And so he actually kinda took the lead on basically creating Facebook ads at the time. There was no news feed. So these were right rail ads and to know newsfeed ads. That's right. There is no nice ads. Right, right. There wasn't newsfeed. But there was no ads in the newsfeed. And so he took the lead of creating right rail ads at had some catchy message about, you know, healthy snacks delivered to your door. Nutritious approve a lot of the messaging that we use the kind of communicating hyperbolic. I remember I was friends with Gabriel Weinberg founder of duck duck. Go. He bought some ads right rail ads on Facebook targeting his wife with a message that was directly appealing life, and she wouldn't click in. And he said, you know, these right realize are just not working. Yeah. Yeah. So so do yes. So to be clear we the cap on those initial customers. I don't remember exactly what it was. But it wasn't profitable customer acquisition right audit. The point was to get people to to see if people would write and it wasn't like crazy. We weren't spending like thousands of dollars for customer or anything like that. But the point was not that, you know, the customer acquisition stuff would be figured out on day one. It was more just to kind of validate the idea and see if people found this idea interesting enough to actually put their credit card down. Okay. Your co-founders Kenneth Chan he is still the chief marketing officer to stay right actually, Ken down a few years ago. But can is crunch base. Cans, kevin. I talk often and he's still a big supporter business. I see he is now native ads is the company that he's with. That's right. Okay. All right. Let me talk about my first sponsorship. We're talking about advertising. I think it's a perfect spot to talk about it. You know active campaign. I you don't even have old memories of them. Here's what I remember about active campaign was just around forever. Like, even the early days before all these like modern Email systems, they would just around and for a long time. I just didn't pay attention to them when it came to Email marketing because I said the old folk skies have been around, and then I'll be honest with you. They bought ads. I started looking into them. And I said really of updated themselves, in fact, not only their stuff like more modern Akkad think of a few that didn't update even though they were making good money. But what they did was they took all those Email marketing automation, tools that work for the bigger guys. And they simplified it, and they just stayed. The course just kept on adding simplicity, but stealing may not stealing ideas for other people. And so right now, the honestly do not like for me to call him an Email marketing company because they look dude we do other marketing techniques to like, for example, if somebody is on your website, and they cleave clicking on a specific sexual recite. Like, let's say if you guys naturebox at a section of your site that was just geared towards corporations you need to know that and not start messaging them with emails about how they get fifty percent off or fifty cents off a buy one pack today or something for Valentine's Day. But instead, here's what offices love right? You don't have to have them. Check off the box tell you. That's what they want. If you see they keep going over to the corporate side, send them Email for the corporate side. So that's why I keep talking about Email. It will do that. But active campaign was do. We'll do other stuff too. Like those text messaging. We'll do that whatever works. We're not saying you have to get locked into Email. I just think it's too complicated. The message here's what I'm gonna say for anyone who's listening to me if you. Doing Email marketing, and you're not getting to target people the way that I've been describing you could do it the old software. The even the modern software is way too complicated. You're never gonna get to do it by yourself. So you either not use it or you'll pay literally. I'm bet you there are people who have interviewed here were paying five ten their entrepreneurial Meyer paying five ten thousand a month to have somebody just manage your Email marketing because they want that smart, automated, you will not have to do with active campaign. And here's how I know it when you go to active campaign dot com slash mixture g they will actually give you two free one on one sessions with their experts. So you get on a call with them telling what you wanna do. And then they will tell you. Here's how to get it done with active campaign. They'll get you going. And then you come back. They hold themselves accountable and say get these paying if he doesn't use it. It's on them. They said, no, all right. Come back. Again. Did you use this? What you stuck? We'll help you out. Second conversation also included for free. They will. Of course, let you try for free. I should say, of course, most Email marketing companies don't do that anymore. But they'll let you try it for free. And if you decide sign up even give your second on free. And if you're with an Email marketing company that you hate they will. Shift you over. And if you promise not to tell the safety town, call me marketing company, but that's just a BS. There's nothing that I care about that. Here's deal. Good active, campaign dot com slash Mickey. I'm telling you, you're gonna love them. And if you don't tell me Email me, my whole company contact that mix dot com or frankly, come to my office to one mission street until floors. Andrew that advertiser viewers active campaign is not great. My guess is. You're gonna wanna buy me a bottle of scotch after son of them because your sales are gonna go up by targeting people properly. Active campaign. Good company got them like a common name in India. It is actually believe it or not I say, it is because Gotham Chopra I I know him because my wife worked for Deepak Chopra's daughter Gotham is her brother. And so I kind of got to know the family a little bit. He spells at Gotham like in Gotham city, you know, that spelling probably isn't as common, but the name super common my last name super common as well. So like like John Smith of India, if you will, you know, there's actually a Bollywood star with the same person. I know. I know I wish I I wish I could be him. You know, you know, what it makes it a little bit harder for me because I can't find you of you at all connected to bur no. Her other line to do man. It's like John Smith video. I'm telling you, man. Speaking of you grew up in the US and you've been to India. No your family. Yeah. Entrepreneurs there you are what was life like there. Yeah. We'll so I grew up here. So I've never lived in India. But I you know, we would spend the summer trips like if you have friends that kinda did this every summer we'd go to India and spend like two months in the middle of the summer, which was just agonizing. But we just, you know, his kids grow up with our cousins spend time with family. Amidst great like I mean, I was just there December you India's a world of opportunity, right? Like, there's a ton of corruption a lot of infrastructure that needs improving, but it's incredible world of opportunity today, and you know, billion people on smartphones. And it's just I mean, it's incredible. The things that the how fast apps or getting scale there. It's incredible. I could see that. I love it. When you talked about eating say, it's also beautiful in there. A really good people which all true, but you are thinking here's a commerce opportunities. Kind of it kind of makes me remember what our producer that as a kid USA sell candy out of your backpack. Yeah. I would get in trouble a lot as a kid for selling stuff. You know, I sold candy out of my bag, I sold mixed CDs. When like Napster was a big thing Iran in EBay business in high school. So I would just get in trouble for all kinds of like selling all kinds of random stuff when you say trouble. What do you mean? It's like. Yes. Some teacher saying like what are you doing? Why you can't do this on school property? You know, so, but it was fun. I mean, I always I feel like I had that kind of entrepreneurial gene from from birth. You know, my I think you've mentioned at my to grandfather's grandfather on both sides had been ups grows in India. So we we kind of were always had the dinner table conversation was around business right from very young age. Am I found it was like that too? I think that it helps a lot for kids to hear about business into see it. All right. I see where you are. I also looking at an interviewer you explain that you spent less than ten thousand dollars on those early ads. That's what gave me the allegation to continue. I understand now how sourced it. Now. It's time that the idea is valid validated to actually run with it. Is that point that you went out any raise money? Yeah. So we were really fortunate that the guys general catalyst put in initial capital, actually. Before I even left my day job. So I was still an employee of general catalysts and kind of we we had they had invested in naturebox on. So so we were very very fortunate and then once general callous invested a bunch of other angel investors were interested in investing. So January two thousand twelve I quit. My job went fulltime on naturebox. So did my co-founder and we basically had this goal of. Let's get from a hundred customers two thousand customers over the next two to three months. And and if we did that then we could go talked all these angel investors kind of finish raising our round raise like a proper seed round an end, that's what we did. Like, we kind of like just put our heads down spent the first three months of the year getting two thousand customers which was about a quarter of million dollar revenue run rate. And then once we had that I went into this live deck out that sort of said, hey, we're at a quarter of million dollar run rate. General catalyst leading our seed round. Do you want in and a about a month and a half later? We closed a two million dollars. Lebron? Oh, this was before Brian Lee. He's the guy from almost company from honest company. Also from legalzoom right heat up. We brought we talked about him here on mixture. Jeez, amazing with the founder of co founder of honest company. Also, he was in plug and play ventures general catalyst red pointing them looking at into lists soothsaying, even before you raise the two million. You raise a little bit of money how much money do raise. That's not angels. Yes. Who the initial funding was probably about four hundred thousand dollars that we raised from general catalyst. But it all was it was all part of that seed round. So it closed as part of that two million. Maybe a little bit early when they do that. How does that work? Do they do it as a loan? Do they do it as yes, it was just a convertible note? So it was a effectively what you would call safe note today. Okay. His kind of same thing. And every you know, everyone that we raised from was on that same note on it. I take note. That's that was created by y combinator I think that's the why Commodores who always was a little different because it kind of predates the why combinator right? I'm sort of thing. But for all intents and purposes the same right? They're very similar. You not one of the things I listened to carry swishes interviews law. Do listen to her. Yeah. Yeah. Once in a while one thing that she does she jumps in. And she like anticipate what the truth is it. You're gonna say, and then I notice even when people disagree. She goes. Yeah. Right. Like, she's like, I guess you're right. It might be something like so general catalyst did invest in your first round. And you might say, no, they did and go. Yeah. Right. They did. I'm noticing that. Now, I'm starting to parrot her back. We'll keep me on my toes. So good. You know, there's this old statement, you're like the five people you around that. You're the average of the five people you around. I think that's BS like around my kids like five hours. Not I'm not into my diaper. My pants not I feel like we are the average of the five people in our heads. And if they come in from podcast, great if they come in from the same show, he listened to great coming from friends. That's what it is CARA. Swisher this week made it into the top five now. It's like everything. Yeah. Right. You're right. All I'm gonna be careful now. No, I need to be careful because when she'll do is she'll like whatever you say. It's like, yes, I'm confirming it, right? You did raise the twenty million. You did raise to okay. I also heard that. There was an issue actually sourcing the food that the first time you could go into Costco. But eventually you had to say to yourself. We need some good food here that we can get on an ongoing basis. How did you solve that problem? So we got again like this sort of a team of luck. Right. So so we got lucky a friend of mine knew that I was doing. I was I was running this project on the side naturebox and told me about a conference in Chicago where it could go meet food manufacturers and this conference is called the private-label show. Right. So labels, kind of the term that everyone uses to describe manufacturers produce something for on behalf of another brand. Right. And so I said, wow. This is perfect like we should go attend the show. Maybe we'll find a bunch manufacturers. So we get to the show in Chicago. Ago, we probably paid a few thousand bucks just to be there right between the ticket to the conference the airline ticket hotel cetera Mico, founder Nyerere in the line to pick up our badge. The person in front of us is from whole foods in the person behind this is from like WalMart. And so we're like, okay, we're in the right place. Right. I mean, Mike if those guys are coming to this show than we're probably, you know, money good start walking the show floor every person we need we start asking. Hey, do you do private label? And after the third person that we talked to third bender. They're like you guys know that you're at the private label show. Right. So you should stop asking. All right. We're like, yeah. You're right. We're kind of it's. Yeah, you're right. And then we would talk to vendors. We're like, okay, great. Like one of this product on how much will cost us, and they would quote some price. They would say you ten dollars f- b and after here on a couple times relate my God. Like, what are these guys saying I mean? You know, my cove hunters Chinese Indian are they saying like f o b like fresh off the boat as like a Ling. Or you know, it wasn't too later that we figured out. No the actually quoting us on freight. Right. So it was you know, freight on board or whatever the term K or we were like, no, it's ten bucks. Plus, you gotta play pay the freight. Right. So so anyway that conference was was great. We met a couple of early manufacturers. Some manufacturers that we still work with today, and we started buying product directly from the manufacturer. And then over time we actually started developing our own product, right? Like a few months later. We'd actually go to these manufacturers and say, hey, make me this. And so so that was a great up Lucien. So I've got from the internet archive the first version of your site in our producer. So I may have. Yeah. That's right. No actually internet archive goes back further than I think what you at one point you charging nineteen dollars a month nineteen ninety five or something. Right. Nineteen ninety five is. Yeah. Yeah. And so all of these guys from the begin. Well, no, they didn't. I it seems like an one of the versions what you've got is like a cliff bar. In addition to other like nuts, right? Yeah. I mean, honestly, the very early days because keep in mind, this was all Photoshop until that first box that we sent out. So the very early days it was sort of like what can we do? What can we have Photoshop the easiest fastest? Right. And so that was using some other people's brands that that was sort of the solution, right light. Hey, get it up there. Put it up on the site. You know, if it works, great if it doesn't change it. Right. And so the first couple images that we may have were probably other people's brands and other people's food. But actually the first box that we sent and ever since then it's always been the naturebox brand, you know, obviously, the food within the bag was Kirkland at the time. But that's obviously changed. So so. Sorry. So there was never a cliff bar or something else. It was always yours. It was always got labeled with your stuff on. You know, what else stands out for me? As I go back in time. You took you a while tavern order form on your site. And when you finally did the first one was kind of ugly, but until then used to send people directly to recurrently it was like. Bag. You don't my co-founder nine neither of us for technical. And so we did whatever we could whatever the easiest thing was. And I think the lesson learned for for furs out there is you don't have to be technical. You don't have to go. Find a technical co founder just start somewhere. It's it might not be perfect. Right. And as you are looking at it. It wasn't perfect. Irving. But I think that's the lesson. French Burs right is like it's not gonna it doesn't have to be perfect. Don't aspire to be perfect. Just get out there store getting data an immensely how we thought about it. Let's talk about the data in the first customers you kept going back to did you go back to Facebook. Or is that the time when you said, look, I learned about influencers. Yes, I'm going to which one. What did you do? We went mostly towards influencer. So so we started basically going after mommy bloggers and sending them samples asking them to write about the product. You know, we that was almost our entire focus for the first year was like, let's go in front of these bloggers get them to write about us about way. If you search nature rocks. You get all these nice articles about us. And that's the thing you would actually put together listed them. And you would send them send them free stuff. Yeah. Absolutely. No, we'd reach out to them. Just a hate. You know on Gupta. I'm. Trying to do this company. Here's what it's all about. Like, read your blog. I think you'd love it. And I send you box and get your feedback. I see one of them right here. I went to so boxes and sub boxes dot WordPress dot com and as a whole category on naturebox. Spelled two words you guys spell your company name with one word. I could see this. Mommy, blogger I guess he's a mommy blogger who wrote all about you. And that's what's wrong for you just have like a database. It was you Gotham sending it out. It was it was myself. I would send some, but actually we'd hired our first employee was a woman that we'd hired from the navy actually. And she like just a wonderful person, super energetic and passionate about food. And so like, she just loved interacting with the blogger. She was totally the right person to do that as well. Because the passion was was genuine, right. So when a blogger would say, oh, you know, but I see the. It has this ingredient. Like, why does it have that ingredient? Right. Like, she could actually get into it with the blogger in sort of like explain completely Janu it, right? Like, she had both the interest as well as the the knowledge onto she did most of it, actually. One of the issues that I always have with this type of approaches. It's so hard to tell whether it's working and it takes a while to pay off. Did you have any issues with that? She can't get you weren't giving them discount codes. And you weren't tracking them. In fact, if anything this, mommy blogger who did it sometimes writers naturebox one word, sometimes two words, which makes it feel authentic. She said before you buy it. Click over the retail me not. Nature roy. I'm right great. Yeah. She was sending people over that way. And then she said the offer I used today was daily candy. But I grabbed it from retail me not. So there's no way for you to track. It if anything if you tracking it's it's Bill candy. That's going to get. How did you know? This was working for you. Yes. In the very early days, our marketing activities were super limited. Right. And so it was really focused on influencers driving these blog posts. And so we knew that it was working because we weren't really doing anything else. Right. Like a meeting. So we kind of knew that. Hey, somebody's hearing about the product someway. And the only thing that we're doing primarily earth blogs. Right. So so although it wasn't direct attribution. We had pretty high level of confidence. Those working the other thing that we wanted to do was we wanted to make sure if you typed naturebox into a search, you get some something about the company, right? Like, it wasn't just nature rocks. Calm. You get a couple of other things you'd be able to read a positive review about service. And so it definitely satisfied. As well. So even if there was no attribution at all. We probably still would have done it because it made the future paid acquisition much more effective. Art. I do see that even to this day searches bring up a bunch, wow, including Amazon, which will catch you. But the one weird thing that stands out for me is Google shows your address as being in San Carlos, there's a picture of someone's house. Are they showing your house here? San Carlos is like people live. No, no, you know, what it's a over the years that Google local information has been at a messed up become his office, actually Redwood shores. So it's not in Saint Carlos anymore, but you know, site one dollars will be just added the profile or something I Tam who I worked with here mixture for longtime lived in San Carlos. It's so close to San Francisco, but they're fricken dear outside is window at times. It's I know I know. Yeah. In Carlos for a little while to it's a beautiful place unexpected. But it's great. It's hit. It's a hidden gem in the peninsula. And then you started to shift to buy you talked about raising money interrupted Yuzu talking about putting the deck together. What happened there? Yeah. So, you know, mind belief on on putting a deck together is basically you wanna emphasize where you're really strong, right? So in our case, it was the growth. So the first light of the deck was our growth rate or how quickly we have gotten from zero to thousands of tribal quarter million dollar run rate. Then I think in the Dak you wanna hit the main concerns, right? Why investor wouldn't invest in this company had on rights? You don't wanna shy away from it? If you think like, hey, food, for example, one of the big questions that we would get is the unit economics around food sock web. Bam. You know, went out of business. Why you think you can make it work? We literally had a slide that talked about like, here's why a business like web band didn't work. Here's why we think our business will. Here's what the unit economics. Look like like that was a inexp-. Lissette slide that we made. So like, my belief whenever you know, fundraising is there's always gonna be those two or three questions that are the show stoppers. Right. Like the reason why Aachen amassed an rather than wait for the question to come up. I think you just have to hit it head on to answer. To those to those issues is not much money in food food companies have failed sweat. Yes. For us. You know, the answer was so I if it was the market is finally growing right after longtime in part of that's because food and beverage is the last frontier for ecommerce. But if you look inside of the business like the reason why web van really didn't work as well. Was they had both the complexity of warehousing the product right buying the product. We're having product as well as the last mile delivery, right? And so the complexity of being good at doing both is really hard, right? Few businesses have been able to do both. And so we said, okay. The first thing I assist in that we made is we're not gonna. To do the last mile delivery. We're gonna let other people do that. We don't want anything to do last month. Livery? Then if you look at warehousing, if you actually broke out, you know, the perishable products from the nonperishable products, what you realize is you spend a lot of money satisfying ability, right because you need to build cap X to house perishable products. Right refrigeration things like that. And you need to turn that inventory, really fast. And we said, okay, we're going to start with non perishable products. And if we can build a good business in non perishable products. Then of maybe someday, we'll think about adding parish meeting like nuts are considered non Archambault in this out gay. All right. I get it. There's also period. There were investors were excited about subscription boxes that even subscription boxes were unclear about what they were about. We're doing hot. And I feel like you kinda road that right? There. It went in waves, right? There were times were subscription was really hot. And the times were subscription was nobody wanted to touch and it largely came down to what the big companies in subscription how they were doing. Right. So if there was a big company like at the time shootout. All right moves really struggling and that made it really hard for us to finance right because everyone would come into a meeting and people would say out subscription doesn't work shoot house. Little, you know, got got rid of subscription. They don't believe in it this model those Merck, and then you're left kind of sitting there like, okay, we'll know. Like, actually, we think it does work in yours. The reasons why we think it works. So it went in waves. I think we benefited from subscription at times we were also hurt by the fact that the subscription kind of bubble was bursting at times as well. Seemed like that round went well SoftBank capital came in general catalyst came in. You raised another eight point five let's jump into a couple of issues and then talk about how you got through them. And then also what happened with subscriptions? I gotta tell people about a company called top towel Gotham. You got you gotta know about this company. Top tells injuries and Harwood's funded company. They are now doing so. Well, I don't think they need more more funding. The idea actually forget the idea. Here's a guess that I had on this guy. Nathan lot. Go said, I really liked his chrome plug in that will tell me when people are opening up my Email and just like all the stuff that that g mail doesn't do it's a plug in a dozen, and it's free and on charging anything for it. So he bought the company, and he said the one innovation that, I want Atta mmediately is a paid thing a pig component. That's how I could make my money back. So he went to top down. And he said, here's what I need. I need you guys helped me charge. And just like you did in the early days. He said, it's not restrict anyone. But if they're using a more than X number of times, just bring a pop up this says pay if you're using this a lot or a link underneath it says as a courtesy keep using it for free one more time. You know, they went to top tell they added that on some we had a revenue stream from this one that he bought for chrome that attached to g mail, and the reason that I bring this up a top talent is. Because he said that he heard top towel dot com slash mixer here in a mixture media interviews at our. It was give him a shot. And he went with them. He is one of many people who have interviewed who have done exactly that. If you're out there listening to me, and you want a great developer or futures Gotham. Listen to me right now, and you ever need a great developer. You know, the usual path is asking friends friends of friends go to your network that's phenomenal. If you can do that. And get a good person. Go for the next one is put ads all over the internet. And you software to help you place, it everywhere and call all the responses that is a pain in the neck takes up a lot of time. You don't have to do it that way. The better alternative is go to top tau dot com slash Mickey no-obligation Gotham. They already have a list of people that they've screened. They put them through the ringer. Go. Read medium articles by developers who got turned down by top down. Who said I promise I'm going to work harder. And I'll get back in the system. I love that those things happen. And so you get on a call with someone atop tau. They call him. A matter top talent, they will talk to you. They will help you understand what your problem is by shaping an understanding of explanation of what it is. And then they'll introduce you to one or two people on. In their database, and if you love you could get started off right away. Not nothing lost. And I'll tell you this. If you go to this. You are all that. I'm about to give you and you're not happy with even after getting started. They will not charge. You they'll still pay the developer. Go get details about that offer at top towel dot com slash MC surgery. I loved them. They've been sponsoring us a lot. Here's what I've learned over the years. I do not pronounce top towel rights. I'm gonna say top and top of your head towels and talent that's T O P T A, L dot com slash MC, surging mother. That is why they wanna talk to people Gotham, the they wanna talk to you before to make sure they can actually take care of you. And if they can't then I want you signing up just to use somebody's time and then get a refund so go check them out. All right. You going really well you started buying ads. You you moved onto like television ads and podcast ads. Right. And that was in well for you. How did you know the TV ads we're going to do while? I'm always amazed that people can track that well better than I. Effect. Yes. So the TV ads by the way, there is kind of a system of attribution that people use now. Right. So they, you know, you do it in couples mall markets kinda have the baseline that you compare basically traffic from those markets relative to baseline, and when we did that test. We saw that it was working really. Well, the downside. Both TV was to produce a spot was costing us a lot of money, right? Like tens of thousands of dollars to produce a TV spot. And we should have looked at it. And we said, well, you know, TV as a medium seems to be working, but we don't necessarily have a budget to kinda keep this link going because of the amount of, you know, spend on just actup right, creative as we always working. But we kind of decided, hey, it's better for us to focus, you know, spend our dollars where they're going to have the maximum return. And we just couldn't afford frankly to to put the dollars towards. Creative. When most of what we're doing was kind of mortgage. So he was working in you could attribute direct orders to the ads. I'm seeing you guys use ice spot dot TV that creates up to place. I remember when they first came out and tech crunch. I think would write about them. It makes sense. You're saying it worked, but I don't understand the part that did not work. Yes. The part will it's not necessarily part that didn't work. It's more that the budget to create the TV ad the commercial was so much, right? That we didn't feel like we could keep going on TV given that we had limited dollars to spend in channel. Right. Okay. Right. Would have made money would have taken you a lot longer to get that that money back from each subscriber to pay for it. Well, what we're finding is just the digital channels were just as officiant. Right. So so why not spend the focus time there versus you know, have spread spread. Kind of spread yourself too thin. Right. And so we tested it. And we said, you know, look, we're just not at a stage where we have enough cash in enough runway to say, this is going to be sustainable part of our marketing mix going forward. I now see where I understood what your revenues were. You must have talked our producer came out. And since it was a private conversation with you in the producer of not going to reveal. It seem like it's something that you meant to say. But I love that. They put it down here in my notes the revenue was at that point. It was strong, and you said to our producer. I think we need to spend more we needed to spend more time dealing with. Why people cancel why did they sign up and understand our customers better instead of China understand television better? What did you understand? What about why people cancelled and how to undo Tscharner reduce it? Some of it goes back to this kind of. Standing up. Can you still hear me? Yeah. Yeah. I can't little ringing. I'm kind of in the back. So no sue some of it just goes back to like why we moved away from subscription. We felt like we had put customers on the subscription model. Even though many of them didn't wanna be on subscription. Right. And so that probably the biggest churn reason for us was you know, I just stuff is stacking up. I don't have room in the pantry to keep all these boxes of snacks. I just don't want this. I'll order when I want it. But I don't want you keep sending it to me. Right. And so that goes back to kind of this reason of why we pivoted away from subscription. The other thing that we were hearing kinda loud and clear for our subscribers was they like the unique of the product, but the value equation wasn't there whom he started to dig into that what we realized was the the amount of value. You could get out of nature walks was was pretty the there was a wide spectrum, right? Like if you bought five bags of plantation ships. You know, arguably for twenty bucks are usually that wasn't a great value. Right. But if you bought five bags of our Saracho cashews that was a phenomenal value. Right. Just by you know, how consumers think of what they would pay for these products in the grocery store until we realized as we have this huge spectrum of products on the each have their own perceived value, and you know, not further kind of fed into this desire to move away from subscription because we thought, hey, what if we could just price these things at value? You know, could we actually been instead of consumers being pissed at us because they don't think they're getting the value that they deserve. They could actually just by what they want. Right. And you know, if our price on plantain chips was like more than you're willing to pay don't buy the plan Tanja, right? Like by other stuff. But how did you know that was it? And not we need to change the mix stuff that we send them because I think about if I don't wanna eat potato chips. If it's in the house, I'm gonna finish it. I don't wanna eat the pretzel peanuts pretzels stuff with peanuts that my wife gets for the kids snacks for school. If it's open, I'm gonna tear right into it. There's some snacks that are like that. How did you know wasn't changing the mix of food? Well, we we experimented over time with different types of products as well as just making it really easy to filter the catalog based on whatever your needs were right. Like, if it was more of a healthy aid or Zeitz, Ernie sweets fermented, a lot with that what we found was the product people really liked the food. Right. Like, they liked the food taste great. It was unique. But they hated the way that they were we were selling food. Right. And so that's what kind of ultimately took us way from from subscription kinda why we started to really extend the brand, you know, two words Alicarte shopping online as well. As some of the retail stuff that we ended up doing you had mentioned the Recode article. Who was that Jason Delray? Okay. Alec Jason stuff. I've a lot of respect for Jason with someone else there. I do too. I actually feel like. Recode has had some really good writers there and they care about their stuff. None of the writers are ever going to get rich. They're just like in the old writing mode with a spent a lot of time doing research, and nobody gets the credit. I guess they get a little bit. I don't know why brought that up. I kind of feel what it is. I feel bad when somebody does the hard work the Rico does. And I and they still are not going to get further ahead in some of the. The people online who joined Jack. And and we'll get a lot of tension Rico. Does do good work. I love the you laid off twenty of your sixty people you still talk to Jason at Recode. And you went through the issue. And I think one of the issues that you brought up was raising money is an issue right there who had trouble raising money, and you said we need to cut costs. What was the issue with raising money at that point yet? And let me just one half step back. You know, we did this layoff which was by far the most painful moment in my career. But but one thing if for any entrepreneur that like is dealing with this sort of issue, not a lot of people talk about layoffs in like how even how you do them. I found that there was this interest in or woods blog or podcast that talked about it. And that was like huge win for me. Like just having something right to that talked about, you know, how you do this. Right. Like, what what you know, how you treat people when when you're going through layoff because I think it's obviously the worst thing that you're. Have to do as a CEO earned the right way to lay people off on a sixteen Z's? Yeah. Horowitz that was like such a opener for me in anyway. So for any ver that's going through this on highly recommend reading mad article. And I just think like layoffs can be done in really terrible ways. And I wanted to you as much as possible try to be treat people with respect and dignity. But yeah, we got to the point where we had to lay off people and actually Jason kinda actually ping me while I was getting married. Unfortunately, these things happen all at the same time. You don't plan the stuff, but I was actually away getting married like a can we talk about this and talked to seems like back in you. What I told him was, you know, I think the unfortunate reality is you're the venture model is built for a rapid scale. Right. End a week. To this place where we raise a lot of capital, and we were kind of on a bit of a hamster wheel where in order to raise the next round of funding. We had to grow at a certain level in order to grow at that level. We needed to invest a certain amount of capital into marketing hit acquisition. Right. And so it was just circular right because you end up like raise money to spend the money to raise more money. Right. And we found ourselves on this hamster wheel that we couldn't get off. And so that was what I was kind of telling Jason this that that's the unfortunate reality of when you take big venture money. You know, you're you're kind of on that at like growth curve that if you decide to slow down or things are working out quite as the way that you hoped it's really hard to kind of get yourself off. You also told our producer the problem with food companies in like this tech comers. World is. Kind of confusing for investors. Here's what I've got from the notes what they meaning the investors realized was that they were investing in high growth ecommerce in ecommerce businesses, they saw that most of the investors in the food. It's you most of the investors in the food space or more traditional CPG, consumer based goods companies right in tech, investors or more into the high growth revenue that comes from software, mice summing that up. Right. Yes. So I think what I was saying there is there at least for us when we would go out and risk capital. Tech investors in their masters. The tech investors wanted you to grow the way tech company does right on. So they wanted to grow fast and money to grow do all those things the CG investors really wanted to see profitability. And so the challenge for us was we got to assize where we started talking this VGA investors and to those guys we weren't even speaking the same language, right? Because the CPG guys were wondering, hey, where's your EBA? What's your gross margin? You know, all these different things, and we had always been used to the conversation with outgrowth, right? Like, hey, how fast can grow? How much grow fifty percent faster than what you're you have planned kind of all those things into that? That's kind of the discussion that was, you know, having the producer. There is that there's just two different very very different types of investors that invest in these companies, and what they look for is very different. And so, you know, you can get kinda cotton in between that right? And it seems like you're you're shifting towards the consumer base. Good world. Now. Right. Definitely. Because because that's where the market the businesses taking. It's not like you're making a strategic bet on those investors coming in Nextel. Yeah. That's just where the businesses taken us. That's where we feel like we we started the company it was to be a brand of healthy snacks. It wasn't to be a big ecommerce company. It wasn't to be a big subscription company. It was to be a brand of health. Acts right in. So what we've realized is kinda gotta get back to the basics of winning on product. And it doesn't matter. How we sell that product. Right. Like, that's what we're selling. Right. We're not selling a subscription model were selling great product in. The that's been the pollution of the strategy. I didn't talk about the layoffs and how you recover from that. But that's one of the things he said to producer. Look, you guys if you wanna focus on something that you hadn't thought about that something how do you recover from? That. Would what have you learned that we can take from that? Yeah. So I think probably the biggest thing is when you do it the the day of a big layoff. I think you just you really have to kind of math out like our our your game plan for that day. I think you want to treat people with respect and dignity. We sat down with every single person in the company whether you are being affected by layoff or not. And I think that's the right way to do it. Right. Is you sit down with everyone any kind of the whole company. Yes. Yes. For our people now. Okay. Nor case we got everyone together. It was very quick. I said, hey, we're doing a reduction enforced today because of these reasons, and you know, we're going to be sitting down with everyone one on one, you know, so please like. And then the folks that are remaining we're gonna come together at the end of the day and talk about our plan forward. And that means that there's some people coming into your office knowing did they know beforehand that they're leaving. Or is it they come to your office. And then they walk away and people see them clear their stuff out. Unfortunately, I'm beforehand. Right. So so kind of all done on one day. And so you might vices like just a planet outright have like an hour by hour. Schedule be really aligned with the rest of the folks that are helping you coordinate this. And then I think afterwards just trying to be helpful to the people that were affected, you know. Introducing them to other companies or just just trying to be, you know, reference things like that. I think that you probably the best thing you can do is is van, you know, get everyone kind of motivated by what you want the business to be going forward an end just, you know, be real people, right? Like that. This wasn't in the cards. This wasn't planned. But it's an unfortunate reality of running a business in you know, we're gonna try and do that. We can't how do you get motivated after going? We're in a world where everyone needs to do better tomorrow than they did yesterday. Yeah. You're now it seems like you're going down. How do you get motivated yet? I mean, I it's definitely it's it's really tough. I would say the probably the biggest thing the biggest good thing that comes out of a layoff is it's a wake-up call right? That you got to change something that you're doing. And so for us. It was about narrowing the focus of the company, and instead of trying to do ten different things doing all these projects like let's just focus on the the one or two things that we really need to do to be successful company. Right. And so I think what you motivate people the way that you kinda get people motivated as you just narrow the focus of what you're trying to do a make it really clear that we're not operating the business. The way we used to like this is this is a wakeup call to change. And we've kind of heard the feedback right? That gotta get better at doing fewer things. I do feel like it so much more exciting to be in a subscription business where you see month month revenue growth where you could predict your revenue could work on turn instead of working on getting new customers. Do you see any hope for that? If you are smaller company. Could you sustain that? Or coach Li yeah, potentially. I mean, I think subscriptions, not not evil. Right. I'm not trying to kind of tell people don't start a subscription business. I just think that for us. We started subscription because it was good for us. It wasn't good for the consumer. Right. And we had to do is really go back to focusing on what the consumer cares about which for us was like great product. Right. And so that's not to say that we couldn't still be selling products description. It, you know, be great. It's just a safe that we had to get focused. On like, what was the core reason that people come into by? You know, what I do like is it seems like you shifted a little bit also towards office. Subscriptions, you added that he has that going for you. Really? Well, yeah. So the office program is unlimited snacks where you pay per employee per month. So you pay twenty dollars per employee per month. And you get unlimited snacks. It's a phenomenal values that meet unlimited snacks. Yes. So you get you get actually pick from our catalog. You know, the exact snacks that you want. And then anytime you run out we send you more O'Reilly. Yeah. You know that they're that. They actually have the number of employees that they have in that they're not just saying we have ten people what doing for fifty at the end of the day. Obviously there's a big trust component. Right. Like, we're making it databases like crunch phase likely din at Bradstreet at cetera. Right. So we're looking at those databases kind of triangulating but the same time like it's it's trust. Based like, you know, if you really wanted to scam us, you know, on ten employees or something like that. Like, yeah. You know, you could. Do that. Would we ever find out? Maybe maybe not right. But that the bigger companies tell me if I'm wrong come can actually do snacks. Like this for their people are at a place where it's generally not the person who's gonna screw around who's going to be in charge of that. It's the person who's in charge knots going around, and you better. Yeah. And the other thing I'd say is I mean, it's not like that money like the office manager who's purchasing. It is like putting that money in her pocket. So I think look there's definitely trust component to it. But it's a phenomenal value proposition for for companies. I really wish more companies would do this. I am now in San Francisco. I've seen a lot of offices here. They're so proud of their ice cream and snack. I think everyone of the I've got to talk to someone who orders this junk food for their office to understand why they do it. Maybe the you get more productivity by giving people comfort food. But what I'm finding is people feel more guilty after they eat it sending people into an office where they feel. She didn't when they come home because the junk food, and they didn't mean to but there were stressed, and so they gave in I wish that every office just say, you know, what here's our attitude were only doing healthy food. We're going to give you enough healthy food that you'll feel good about at the end of the day. I know it's going to suck for some of you who have comfort food needs. Guess what? Walk downstairs, you'll be. Okay. That's mine. I mean, we, you know for us. It's we think you're not gonna eat even if it's healthier. It's good for you. You're not gonna eat it unless to taste great. So so for us. It's always about how do you make a product taste great. But you know, doesn't have a lot of the added junk that a lot of other snacks might have bad said we're also just trying to make life easier for the office manager. Right. Like, do you really wanna have to go to Costco, every week in like pick the snacks that you're getting in, you know, pay per item. All that offer. You know, do you wanna just never have to think about it? Right. Like, all you have to do send us an Email and say Samuel aren't kids. What I got out of the center number one teacher should just really encourage kids to to sell candy. And if they're doing it. Optum, make him feel good about it. Congratulate them for doing it. Number one, number two. Subscriptions models are not the cure all for everything. Number three. We do have to stop and pay attention. And not just say, what's what's the best business model for us? But also, what makes sense for a customer number three or whatever number on. It does pay for more business to think about how do I go to be? How do I sell the stuff to business businesses? More rational businesses have more money to spend business could make big purchases. So that's all great next. I'm going to say that laying people off is really painful. I think Ben Horowitz can't find that article in his first point. He said do it fast. Don't put it off. It's really hard not to. I think we really need somebody on the outside to look at stuff and say, I told you you gotta do this. Now, I'm gonna push you to do it right now before it's too painful for you. Right. I think that's everything. And then finally if you don't know something, even if you know a little bit of it don't pretend, you know, just ask I feel like that's gonna make you a smarter person. Even though in the moment, you're gonna feel. Right. I should highlight. Now, it's great while while said out all right to Gotham Gupta. Apparently got them. Is it real name? That's such a frigging. Cool name. I thought Deepak Chopra had like a cool side. Not a cool. He has no cool. John chopra. He's just like regular Indian dude who happened just gone more traditional. All right. Anyone wants to go? Check out the business. Go check them out at any mommy blogger because they're backing out like working with their network and getting people talk about or just go to naturebox dot com. I wanna thank my two onto made. This interview happen owned, by the way, I should say. Yes, our discount codes for your site all over the place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There are there are people go check out retail. The bloggers are doing that already. So, you know. Come go. Go check it out at naturebox dot com or anywhere else that you like, and I wanna thank my sponsors made. This interview happened. The I will do marketing even though that they prefer that. I highlight that they do other stuff. It's called active campaign dot com slash mixer and the second will help you hired phenomenal developers its top towel dot com slash misery. And I'm gonna be running marathons all over the world. If you wanna follow along home doing go. Check me out at run with Andrew dot com. Thanks. Thanks them. Course. Thank you. Bye. Bye. One.