Pump and Trump
How are you. How's the county in two thousand and eight Yvonne. Ca Trump takes a phone call from portfolio magazine. The transcript of the interview was published, but the audience never been heard. The vice president of development of acquisitions of the Trump organization. She's grabs what she does. The world right now. She mentioned Dubai and Scotland. A lot of what I do is get involved in the acquisition process and then the initial due-diligence process, she talks about seventy projects in the pipeline. One of them is the Trump ocean club. Panama. We have many projects that are actually sold forty units in Panama Las bump. She says, she's on forty units. You did. She was asked. She backs on our project. We did. She says, our project thousand unit building, we've sold over ninety percent of it. It was more like seventy nine percent in Panama. We sold it a five hundred percent premium. Anything the luxury market had ever experienced prior to our entry. She says the Trump sold units in the Panama building for five times as much as other luxury units in the same market. They did not. We now know no five hundred percent premium new personal sales by Bunka Trump. No ninety percent sold. Five years after this interview that Trump ocean club. Panama went bankrupt of those one thousand units. Buyers walked away from nearly half. They forfeited their deposits. The Trump's, they made tens of millions. After Donald Trump became president, the Trump suffered an international embarrassment at the Trump ocean club in Panama City. There was a dispute about their management with a group of owners of the hotel condo units Trump management was voted out, but they refuse to leave. There was an actual physical brawl. Eventually the Trump organization was replaced. A worker took out a yellow crowbar and a hammer prying. The letters t r u m p a stone wall in front of the building. The president's company issued a statement distancing itself from the property Ivanka had once called our project. This statement said, quote, the Trump organization was not the owner developer or seller of the Trump ocean club Panama project because of its limited role. The company was not responsible for the financing of the project and had no involvement in the sale of units, but like the vodka Trump claims. We just heard this also was false. A WNYC propublica investigation of a dozen deals around the globe found the Trump's Donald and his children were way more than just licensors in places like Panama. They were deeply involved in many aspects of the deals. They misled people when the projects didn't work out for buyers and investors, and they often didn't the Trump's profited anyway. I'm going to step back a moment and give you a quick history of the Trump family business. Recently, there was a huge New York Times investigation of Donald Trump and his father, Fred Trump what it showed. Contrary to the myth, Donald Trump was not a self made man. He got over four hundred million in today's dollars from his dad. In two thousand four, Donald, his siblings sold off their dad's empire. A Trump lawyer called the story false. This was around the time that big banks mostly stopped lending to Trump. They'd been burned one too many times as we now know Donald Trump then changed his own business model from building buildings to selling his name. You've probably heard a lot about this business model. It was a brilliantly, pure licensing strategy. So the story goes, but as we've found out, this is a myth to our investigation, found that what happened in Panama was typical of a dozen Trump projects around the globe. Hello and welcome to Trump Inc podcast from WNYC and propublica that digs deep into the secrets of the Trump family business. I'm Andrea Bernstein. I'm Heather Vogel. I'm a reporter at propublica and I met Creamer senior producer of Trump Inc today on the show, Heather and Meg are gonna take you deep into what happened in the Panama deal. They've spent months digging up court records and thousands of pages of documents, New York, Florida, and Panama. They spoken to people close to the deal to brokers regulators. Those false claims you heard of Trump making about sales at the Trump ocean club. They fit into a much bigger pattern. So what we found was that this is Heather, there appears to be a pattern of deception that is sort of threaded throughout Trump's real estate deals going back at least the last fourteen years when he was doing a lot of these licensing deals, some overseas, some at home. We kept seeing the same categories of misrepresent. Nations. This is Meg one is the, I'm the developer. I'm putting my own money in when he wasn't. This is something that we heard Trump himself saying in a number of deals. It's something at times that his developer partners would say or that marketing materials would imply. This happened not only in Panama, but in Florida and Mexico to this is important because it sends a misleading signal to investors that a project is so sound. The international billionaire Trump's are putting their own money in the other category that was very prominent was we're already x. percent sold. And that can be sort of a shorthand for the viability of a project, especially when that hasn't been built yet. So I was in Panama. We're now doing a great great project in Panama that selling like hotcakes the Trump ocean club in Panama posted this video when those units were not selling like hotcakes. This is important because units in building that's heavily sold are more valuable than if all the other units in your hallway are empty. This also happened in SoHo where the Trump's told buyers their hotel condo was sixty percents sold when it was actually fifteen percent sold. There are omissions to like in a project in Mexico where Ivanka Trump said she was buying a unit herself at that site in northern Baja and arguably Mexican. And I personally am very excited about it. I actually chose purchase a unit in the first tower. What she didn't say was that she had a special insiders deal. She wasn't taking on the same financial risk as regular buyers. And typically, these types of misrepresentations occur at a very key point for these deals, right win. The early sales were happening and things like construction financing, where predicated on their ability to kind of get people to commit to buy units once they're built, this sales are important in and of themselves and also because they're being used to get too much bigger pots of money like Bank financing. So it's important for the Trump's to say, things. Like they're buying in units are selling fast even before the buildings are built to convince lenders, hey, give us money. And then when things don't go so well, that developers go bankrupt or the deal collapses or can't get financing. Then all of a sudden it's, oh, no, no, no, no. The Trump's say we had nothing to do with that project. We were just the licensor as we just gave them our name. We didn't have anything to do with the really the mechanics of the deal. So they're tone really changes that project in Mexico or you Manca said she was buying unit. It was never built. It's not clear where the money went. The Trump organization now says it was never the developer. It designed the product in simply lent its name to the project and sorry for everyone. But we are in the same boat. We had to terminate our contract because our agreements weren't obligated either. This is from a two thousand nine interview with CBS about the Baja project. We're never the developer of this project and that was made clear. We never took anyone's deposit. We never had asked access to any of the escrow account. We lived up to our obligation under license agreement in that same interview Ivanka Trump. Says, other projects are going really, really well. The Trump organization has really never been stronger. I mean, we were at the top of an unprecedented growth cycle from a real estate development perspective. So the market is retreating and there's some markets that are retreating faster than others. With that said, we have projects all over the world that are incredibly successful that are under construction right now that have their financing secured and that are virtually sold out. So from Hawaii to Toronto to Istanbul, Toronto is we now know was never virtually sold out. Sales were never brisk in the failed project in Fort Lauderdale or tower in Las Vegas or a hotel condo in SoHo in lower Manhattan. Contrary to reports of healthy sales by Trump organization officials. Hawaii was fully reserved at one point. The Trump organization didn't respond to a long list of questions about these transactions. The White House didn't have a comment. You may have heard about a theme running through some of the Trump's deals over the years that the trumps have linked up with some shady people in other by John India, Panama. Our reporting shows. It's not just about who the Trump's worked with. It's about what they did. And yes, there are questions about whether what they did was illegal. We'll have more on that later. I started to look into more and more of these deals and what happened to them. And I was really surprised at how many of them failed in one way or another bankruptcy of foreclosure. Never finished construction, never started construction, and it just made me wonder, first of all, why would Trump keep doing this? And Secondly, why are people partnering with him if some of the deals that he tends to be getting involved in our going belly up? So you know that led me to this question of what is the engine at the heart of these deals. There must be something that Trump is getting out of it, and there must be something that the developers are getting out of it. That question is what brought Heather and Meg to Panama City. Technically, it's not called the Trump ocean club anymore. But in the spring, when we visited, you could still see the faded outline of t. r. u. m. p. on the sign by the driveway, the marketing materials describe the ocean club as sale shaped. It's more like if Georgia, oh key for an architect, she would have designed to building like this. There are two Infinity pools, even a place to more your yacht. If you have one, there's a rooftop garden dotted with pink and purple tropical flowers. A piano in the lobby is far as we can tell Trump didn't put any of his own money into the building. It was financed instead with two hundred and twenty million dollars in corporate bonds for the purposes of this story, think of a bond as a kind of Bank loan instead of writing a big two hundred twenty million dollar check the Bank breaks Vallone into pieces and sells those pieces to investors effectively. It's the investors. Now the Bank or putting up the money. There's one really important thing to know about this financing in order to get it. The developers had to show that the Trump ocean club was a sound investment. And the way they did that was by getting a huge number of buyers to commit to units a head of time. One of the reasons we came to Panama was to find out more about those early buyers and about the financing in Panama. These records are kept at the office of Panama securities commission. So we went there. Having to the car, Heather Knight talked about one thing in particular. We were hoping to find. Some slicing agreement. It's the document that lays out in detail what his role in the deal was and what he got paid for. It wouldn't be in there. I mean, they've got all the other backup. The claims in the bond prospectus is in there. Driver drop us off in front of a tall glass building. We wrote a cramped elevator up to the eighth floor. Someone let us over to a folding table with a huge stack of documents. There's like one, two, three, it's all the records. They could find about the Trump ocean club bonds. So we go through that twelve thirteen really fat folders. This is amazing. This is what is that pre-sales and it's all about. How does really early sales were going to work. And then a photocopied document with a familiar angular signature Donald Trump just found that license agreement between Trump and developers of the project, and it describes Trump as a world renowned builder and developer of luxury real estate among other things who enjoys the highest reputation in these fields. The license agreement signed in two thousand six. This document is h Frazier trove of information on the Panama deal. It leaves out what Trump's obligations are and how he can make money. He gets a million dollars up front and he gets at least a four percent cut of sales, but get this even if they don't sell. The contract has a special provisions that he will still get a commission. He gets a commission if they sell, he gets a commission if they don't. So there's something else we found an amendment to this document signed in two thousand seven that totally changed our understanding of what Trump did for the Panama deal. There's a line in it that says, Trump is quote responsible for licensee, securing financing from Bear Stearns for the construction of the building. Bear Stearns is the investment Bank that issued the two hundred and twenty million dollars in bond. Financing Trump got a cut at least two point, two million dollars this detail that Trump brought in Bear Stearns and was paid for it directly contradicts the twentieth. Seventeen statement from the Trump organization. It said Trump was not responsible for the financing now, we know that's not true. These documents that Heather and Meg found they link Trump too many more aspects of the deal. Then he's acknowledged in the past the ways he makes money, the Trump families oversight of sales and marketing Trump's direct tie to Bear Stearns financing that made it all possible. Trump ocean club in Panama City was pitched by someone you've probably never heard of Roger Chaffee, Heather talked to him on the phone a couple of times, Roger, easy guy to talk to. He's affable. He's uses colorful language. He's intense. He makes big promises. He's a very determined guy from what people told me. And sometimes that determination comes across a bit as stubbornness is a Panamanian citizen of Lebanese descent. He was an importer exporter of clothing and textiles. He worked in the free trade zone in Panama near the Panama Canal, and he had started dabbling a bit and real estate. He had a plot of land right on the water in an up and coming neighborhood in Panama City. He didn't have the money to build, but court records showed his company agreed to pay over a million dollars to the middleman who introduced him to Trump. He flew up to Trump Tower to meet with Trump in New York and to pitch him the project and the idea that he had. And Trump didn't give an immune answer off the bat. So Kaffee left and flew back down to Miami the next day, the phone rang and he picked it up and it was someone that sounded a lot like Trump on the phone, but he thought it. I said it was a prank call that it was a friend of his and it turned out that it actually was really Trump says that a week later Ivanka Trump flew down to Panama to check the place out Trump and Kaffee. We're in business. When Trump signed the deal in March of two thousand six, the ocean club was still an undeveloped plot of land to start building. They needed the bonds and the bonds they needed to start selling quickly. Trump was ready to make his first pitch. So they had this press conference in Trump Tower in the marble atrium and everybody's got their nice business suits on a caffeine is there. He's got this pale pink tie in well, cut dark suit and has their Don juniors there. And Trump's there, of course, and they announced this incredible project that they're going to do in Panama. One of the biggest buildings if not the biggest building in Latin America. So at this press conference Trump makes what maybe his first misrepresentation about this deal. According to one account Trump says that in addition to being a licensor, the Trump organization has a financial interest in the deal, but he wouldn't say how much he'd left the impression though that he had an ownership stake which he didn't. There's a concept in real estate sales. It's called puffery. It's okay to say you have the world's best building even if you don't. This happens all the time. It's not okay to mislead potential buyers on something material, a specific verifiable statement, you know is inaccurate. In the hopes it will encourage buyers to put down their money that could be fraud. Trump's press conference in New York kicked off an international selling spree brokers went to Dubai, Russia, Canada, Spain, trying to find buyers to sign sales contracts. So these contracts played an incredibly important role for this project. Basically, the developers didn't have a lot of equity, a lot of their own money that they were putting into it. So what they needed, what they could Bank on basically was collecting a bunch of promises legal commitments from buyers to pay a pretty sizable amount of money for each of these units. So then they could go to the Bank and they can say, look, we've got all these people who are going to pay this significant amount of money for these units. This is a standard way for developers to get financing at first. It seemed to be going well. They reported an incredible number of sales in that first year in two thousand six, they said that they managed to get five hundred eighty five contracts signed by buyers and that was not even a full year. If you think about the fact. That Trump only made the announcement of his involvement in April of two thousand six. Here's what's notable about the early buyers. One, a lot of them used secretive shell corporations registered in Panama to some buyers purchased multiple units, which can be a red flag for money laundering. Three, a bondholder claimed developers bought units themselves. That could be a sign. They were trying to inflate the sales numbers to secure financing and for some buyers that we know about head ties to organized crime. Roger Kaffee says everything. The developers did was done by the book last year, one independent broker in the project confirmed to Reuters and NBC that some of his partners and investors were connected to the Russian mafia. Another investor from Columbia was convicted of laundering drug money after the two thousand six rush to get sales contract signed. The Trump ocean club would never match that rate of sales. Again, even after the building was complete. Panama City traffic is so bad that everyone plans their meetings times that are marginally less congested. We had to organize days around it. Also, no one uses street addresses. Directions are based on, landmarks, can Davis's office is in the same building as a casino Davis is a local broker who sold units in the Trump ocean club. He's an American who grew up in Hawaii and now lives in Panama. Sorry, I guess as you keep my voice level, he has a boyish look freckles and a tan during our conversation. He kept leaning way back in his chair then all the way forward close to the microphone Trump had the best salesman at the end of the day, they were the smoothest, how can I put it? They were able to control the dialogue such that they basically really keepers of all information. So you could never really get a straight answer in terms of what was actually available, what had actually soul and what the real price was Davis describes a lax selling environment in Panama at the time. I don't think they did any due diligence on their buyers. None. What's. However, proof of funds, ability to close. Nothing. Usually brokers do have an incentive to find buyers who can close brokers, don't get their full commission until the sale goes through. But for the Trump ocean club fade get ninety percent of their commission. Early on. The nice thing about Trump is day preloaded, a lot of the commission. So you got paid the lion's share of your commission as soon as the buyer put down the initial deposit. So no. Incentivize brokers. This means that right at the moment, the developers need to sell units to unlock financing brokers are being rewarded for making quick sales that might never go through. We don't know exactly what the Trump's knew about all of this hustling. What we do know about the Trump's awareness of sales was that they were getting monthly reports, so they were promised them in the licensing agreement. And what we found in an Email in another project that came out in a court case was that they actually were paying attention to these reports. Eric Trump at one point was sort of chastising one of the other developers they were doing a deal with for not providing this type of report. Basically what he said was my staff tracks all these projects in. We need this information. Remember vodka Trump's two thousand eight interview with portfolio magazine in it. She also said she keeps an eye on things. Every aspect of our new construction projects. A lot of what I do is get involved in the acquisition cross and then the initial d diligence process. But then of course, I follow the deals through to p- redevelopment planning, design interior design, architectural design, sales, and marketing, and ultimately through operations. In the fall of two thousand seven. The developer said they had found enough buyers to unlock the bond financing. Then at the last minute, Bear Stearns stalled. This was just a few months before the global financial crisis and Bear Stearns had a total of eight bond offerings in the works ready to go. They were all on hold a few days later, though they decided the Trump ocean club bonds could go through. It was the only one of the eight that did. So Jack stud. Nikki a lead real estate agent for this project told me how he was walking down Fifth Avenue with Roger Kaffee after all of this craziness happened. And he said at one point, he just put his arm around Roger and said, you are the luckiest SOB I ever met. So here we are Bear Stearns and investment Bank that was about to implode in the financial crisis that became synonymous with reckless unbridled, risk-taking with other people's money, agreed to underwrite two hundred and twenty million dollars worth of bonds. Donald Trump had brought in Bear Stearns. The bonds were purchased by independent investors, and it was all bolstered by huge numbers of dubious pre sales. Spoiler alert everything is about to get worse. We'll be right back. Welcome back. Let's review where we are. It's early days of the Trump organizations Faren licensing deals. One of their first deals is in Panama to finance it. There's been a scramble for sales brokers have been wrangling buyers and questionable ways. And did we say this, it's Panama, which ranked more corrupt than Brazil. India and Saudi Arabia on transparency, international's index Trump ocean club bonds are a tough sell rated junk. Bear Stearns is about to collapse the real estate market melts down eventually leading to a global recession in two thousand nine. The bounds are downgraded. Ivanka Trump describes things differently. She says out only problem is we don't have enough inventory over the next two years. Things don't go well for the building, Heather in MAG are going to take it from here. Buyers were promised a beach club on a nearby island, the planned club. Kept moving to islands that were farther and farther away from Panama City. It was never finished the Trump casino which was advertised as part of the ocean club. Early on wasn't materializing either. It never did. The developers had an obligation to bondholders to keep up the rate of sales and to keep buyers locked into their sales contracts. Buyers started to default on their payments. In July of twenty seven with the building late and over budget, the Trump family traveled to Panama. For the opening ceremony, it was the middle of Panama's rainy season and a downpour during the opening ceremony flooded the streets outside the ocean club was surrounded by new developments and the neighborhoods drainage system was overloaded inside the hotel Trump lined up with a row of men in dark suits to cut a ribbon. He stood between his son Don Jr. and Panama's president Ricardo Martinelli who's now in jail facing unrelated corruption charges, which he denies Martinelli reportedly told Trump at the event that quote, everything you touch, turns to gold Trump was friendly to. And grabbed him and shoulder. They really love your president and I want to just thank you very much for being here today, and you're my friend. Trump and Martinelli were driven out through the flooded streets in separate SUV's just five months later in November of twenty. Eleven the developer defaulted on its bond payment. What we could see from our reporting was that the Trump's and their promotions had really pushed this thing into existence and had done. So at times in ways that we're very questionable that whole deal had these rotten underpinnings and when things got tough, a lot of the buyers walked away. Investors lost one told us that a full one hundred twenty million of the two hundred and twenty million bond. Financing wasn't paid back buyers walked away from their units and forefeited more than fifty million dollars into posits Trump was making money I by selling his name then by bringing in the financing and taking a cut of investor money without taking on any risk. It's hard to think of any aspect of this project that they hadn't figured out a way to draw fee from the. Two thousand six licensing agreement shows they were getting seventeen and a half percent of what hotel guests paid for the rooms, including what they spent on minibar items, internet service, and even bathrobes. They were also going to get a twenty percent commission. If they were able to help the project save money on construction contract, they weren't hitting four percent for parking unit sales, twelve percent of commercial space rentals, four percent of the hotels gross revenue for managing it lessen incentive fee equal to a fifth of the hotels net operating income. The Trump organization was eventually kicked out as building managers, but Donald Trump based on financial statements, government disclosures, and other records Trump appears to have walked away with between thirty and fifty five million dollars. In Panama. The Trump's engaged in a series of misrepresentations. They made money while buyers and investors lost out and what happened in Panama was not just a one off the WNYC propublica investigation looked at deals from Toronto to the Republic of Georgia and the elements of what we saw in Panama kept appearing inflated figures about the numbers of unit soul inside deals and a sort of Trump sleight of hand. The Trump's consistently talk up their investment early in the deals. When things go bad, they talk down their involvement. So what they said is that they were investing when they weren't and they didn't oversee aspects of the deals when they did. This was part of a pattern that we saw stretching across multiple deals across multiple countries across multiple continents. The details weren't always the same. For instance, in Toronto, buyers were shown these projections about the kind of prophets they could expect from these hotel condo units. And it turned out the projections were completely off the charts, not realistic in any way. Buyers sued. They said, Trump misled them over his ownership stake and that the developers were making false promises about how much money they could make a judge called the projections deceptive documents and added. They were replete with misrepresentations of comission of omission and half truth. The Trump say they're merely licensors and there's no factual basis to involve the trumps and the claims the litigation is ongoing. Then there Chicago where Trump worked to gin up early sales. So what happened in Chicago was that Trump offered a special deal to people who were involved in the project like brokers and architects allowing them to buy an early for a discount. But the problem was that once the project was all done and it was actually selling better, he pulled back that discount Trump cancelled the early deals. He said, we're entitled to the higher prices in a Florida project. There was another wrinkle. This time an. Insiders price for Trump organization employee's including Don Jr. there were emails came out in a court case. So the developer was promising Don Jr. in the Trump employees, five percent down payment in a discounted price and the rights to flip this property pretty much immediately prior to closing so that they could make a big two hundred thousand dollar profit right off the bat. So in the process of that conversation, we saw emails that show they were discussing backdating contracts so that they could get favorable capital gains treatment. They formed a company busy boys to handle the inside deal. The Florida project was never built. The Trump organization did not respond to requests for comment. Oh, also Trump SoHo artist on flav. The Trump International hotel and tower in SoHo is the site of my latest development. This fifty. WNYC propublica New Yorker investigation found there was an actual criminal investigation of Don Jr. and vodka Trump's misrepresentations about how much of the Trump SoHo sold. There was evidence of felony fraud. The Trump's denied wrongdoing after a lot of legal back and forth and visit to the DA. By a campaign donor, the case was dropped. The DA denied. He was influenced by the donor. So with the suggests to me is that this wasn't just a fluke where the Trump sometimes would forget the numbers for particular project and maybe miss speak here they are, but that this was actually a strategy that they employed across deals where they were misrepresenting the value of these projects as part of a strategy to try to draw more money into them that this was actually a feature of their business model, not just a fluke. Donald Trump, and I'm the largest developer in New York. Used these deals to build his public persona and based in no small part on that celebrity, he became president. He named his daughter Ivanka to be senior White House adviser. Even recently floated her name to be the UN ambassador to be incredible. That doesn't mean not you, you know, I'd vicar because you'd be accused of nepotism, even though I'm not sure there's anybody more confident than the world Trump is not allowed to appoint his daughter to be UN ambassador. So thanks to Heather in megs work. We now understand a lot more about how the Trump's made money in the years immediately preceding their ascendants to the White House. And we know you're wondering, could there be legal consequences? We wonder too. So we call a former prosecutor. This is Daniel Braun. I'm a lawyer at Freshfields Brockhouse daring are based in Washington DC before joining this firm. A couple of years ago I worked for over fifteen years at the US department of Justice as an assistant US attorney in the southern district of New York, and also as a supervisor at the fraud section in Washington DC I asked him what he makes of the pattern raises my eyebrows, but the instinct I have from having done this sort of work. A lot is it's one thing to tell a story. It's another to see and hear the evidence. Dan is making clear. He hasn't seen the evidence done his own investigation and isn't drawing any conclusions. It's the sort of story that you might well pay attention to. Because you're describing the basic elements of a long running insignificant scheme to defraud investors. So is that the sort of thing that the FBI and the Justice department pay attention to it is. It has a number of ingredients that you would typically see in an investigation or even prosecution of fraud to be clear many of these events. If they were even criminal, might have happened outside the statute of limitations and in a fraud prosecution, it's a valid defense to say, you were just talking up the project that's puffery. This is a great development. This is a really exciting project. I think this is going to be terrific. Those are all difficult statements to basic case on for reasons that I'm sure you can appreciate their subjective and there's not that much hard fact in the representation, except for example, ninety percent sold is a very specific ninety percent sold as a different sort of statement than, hey, we're having a lot of success with this project. Does it say anything to you when they consistently say up front like this is our project or they imply that there. Developer, they implied that their equity or that they're putting their own money in like, that's what they say at the outset. But when things go bad, they're like we were just the licensor. Does that fact pattern say anything to you. It does go on. Well. It's not unusual for people to disclaim responsibility for things wants to deal goes bad, but. If they're saying repeatedly that they're deeply involved in a project for purposes of marketing, it would at least suggest to you that based on their own experience in doing these deals that that's the sort of claim that might be important to the people there speaking to. We have seen those sorts of claims form the basis for criminal cases in a number of different settings. Despite the fact that Trump's kept getting accused by buyers and investors of strikingly similar deceptions. The Trump's didn't change their strategy. It worked. as of September at Trump ocean club in Panama City is now j. w Marya the Trump organization is actively working on foreign deals, including Indonesia, India, and the Dominican Republic. Coming up on Trump Inc. What's your guests on your percentage of income that's paid in taxes? You said this many times, so it's not exactly breaking news. I pay as little as possible. I fight like hell to pay as little as possible. This story was reported by Heather Vogel. Peter l. kind and Meg Kramer with additional reporting from Catherine Sullivan. For discussion of more about these Trump deals. You can read the full article Trump Inc. Podcast dot org trumping is produced by Meg Kramer Megan Detroit, and Alice wilder Bill moss is our technical director. We had engineering health this week from on the editors are Nick Varsha ver- Charlie, Herman and Eric humanity, Robin fields, the managing editor of propublica. Jim shafter is vice president for news at WNYC and Steve Engelberg is the editor in chief of propublica kind of sprout composed our music. The.