Washington Post Fact Checker Glenn Kessler on Trump and the Truth


Three. Can. Major, yes, CBS yes, I. Welcome Major Garrett from the nation's capital major fantastic. It's the takeout major with CBS. News, chief Washington correspondent later. That's nonsense Major Garrett. Welcome to the rivers part of my broadcast week. I Major Garrett host and creator of this amazing program known as the takeout where each and every week we are two things. What are those two things relentlessly curious, steadfastly, non ideological. And working from home last week working from the office Oh back to the home set here in the dining room. Glenn. Kessler is our special guests this week. We're going to have a conversation about facts fact, checking and the forty fifth president of the United States Donald, trump and right then and there facts fact, checking donald trump, that's a mouthful all by itself with many implications for accuracy for fact, checking for truth in this country, and for the journalists who try to run those facts to ground, or bring them to the audience, their audience with as much clarity and context. It's possible Glenn is the author along with his partners the Washington Post. Salvador Rizzo and make Kelly of a new book called Donald Trump and his assault on truth. Glenn. It's great to have you with us, thanks for joining us. Glad to be here. So. I want to start this conversation not about the book, but about presidents and their relationship to the truth. I haven't talked to the President Meeting Donald Trump about this personally, but I believe those around him. Think about truth in this way. Oh come on other presidents have told lies, and they've been bigger lies and people have died. Because of those lives or people kept dying because of those lies, and whatever donald trump does or doesn't do as a troop. He hasn't killed. Anybody and people have died in the numbers that they did under Lyndon Johnson or Richard Nixon. and. He didn't set up a pure of Bureau of truth to push out propaganda and pass addition law like Woodrow Wilson did. So He's a piker compared to his predecessors again. I'm not sure that's exactly how they would put it, but I think it's in the general ballpark and I think you might agree responded that. Well. I would respectfully disagree with that. Basic. Assertion. I mean every president lies. There are lots of reasons why presidents lied. They sometimes do it for national security. They sometimes do it to protect themselves from embarrassments, Still Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky they sometimes do it because they're trying to sell a program. You think of you know. You want to keep your doctor you can. Keep your plan, you can keep your plan that kind of thing. What is unique about trump and I have covered every president since Ronald Reagan ev course studied previous presidents before then. What is unique about trump is that he misleads, says false things and lies about just about everything on a regular basis. He, has he before? The Corona virus struck He had pretty good economic news. He would mislead about that. He would routinely inflates by six hundred thousand. The number of jobs created in his administration. And I think what is you know? Part of the reason why we wrote our book was to year. We have been fact checking the President Day in and day out. and. We have this greatest database which at this point has. More than nineteen thousand claims in IT but to see it all in one place in the read through and look at how on just about every issue you can imagine. The president is not taught, told the truth about himself about his enemies about his policies. I think it's for many people would would be. It will be actually shocking the CFO, in one place. For sure? And how comfortable or uncomfortable are you Glenn with the Word Lie? I've never been particularly comfortable with it. Lie Means you have to get into someone's head and you can say they knowingly said this. Knowing that was false. And one of the unique things about President trump is I actually think he often believes what he's saying, even if it's completely contradictory to what he said the day before. Is Very situational. He lives in the moment. And so? We. We said it was a lie when he said he didn't know about the payments to his alleged paramour well, he was recorded on tape. Talking about those payments. That's pretty definitive trump that he should have known it was. You know the. Yeah, not the truth, but another thing you know what he I mean years of us an example of a policy issue He has routinely inflated. By fact of ten or twenty, the number of jobs that could possibly been created by the business deals with Saudi Arabia. And One space of five minutes he went from six hundred thousand jobs to a million jobs. But he. And when I looked into it I got I got obtained a list of all the deals in a lot of them were. You weren't. Hadn't come to fruition, and the numbers were much smaller talked about, and in fact, most of those jobs are being created Saudi Arabia, not in the United States, but I think he's convinced himself that actually he has achieved creating a million jobs with Saudi Arabia. Even though it's not that at all, and that's one reason why he continues to not punish Saudi Arabia for the brutal killing of former college alcocer so. You know there. You see actually a policy implication from the president, believing something that is not true, and even though our fact, check the number of times. He's not going to believe me. He's going to believe himself right and their implications from that exaggeration, and or that misstatement that carry great weight back to our original conversation about well, these lies are possibly innocent as compared to others. You would say in that instance. Another is no, they're not. Exactly, and you know and you know. Wouldn't you question? has anyone died because of his lies? Well, you know his his statements about the crow virus where he. Downplayed it. To such an extent that the United States was caught flat-footed by the emergence of the virus well in. One could make a case that. More people have passed away from the virus because the United States is not prepared. So, is that new tribute at to President Trump's rhetoric? I'm not about to do that, but there are certainly people that might make that. Linkage there others in the trump world and I'm sure you've heard this as well because I'm sure you get more feedback even than I do on these kinds of points, and we can talk about that, but during the campaign of two thousand sixteen throughout covering the presidency. Part of the feedback is he's an exaggerated. Everybody knew that he said it in his first bestselling book in plain English, that he's an exaggerated that he is a marketer, and that he grabs publicity and use it to his own advantage. That would be their context point one context point to is, they would say you guys don't get. Every time you chase one of these facts and prove it to be misleading or something, you're giving more publicity the thing he wants more publicity about. which is his way of manipulating? You guys without you guys even knowing it. Respond to those too. Well I think it gives a. Little, too much credit to the pro, which is what people around trump do of course you know that as well as I do right right, but then giving him I'd say that's giving them too much credit I bowl east president of the United States. There is a baseline standard for the for the credibility of the President you know if he's misleading the American people on a regular basis that probably means he's mis- misleading. Other, foreign leaders, in fact, we have evidence from sane things that are false to foreign leaders mean he wants admitted. He got in a big fight with Justin. Trudeau where you said. Of course you have a trade deficit with us. When he admitted you know in a recording relator obtained. He admitted actually had no idea, but he couldn't possibly imagined that there was a surplus true was like. It's a surplus guy so. So. Then gets to the basic credibility of of of the president. So if if members of Congress can trust, twenty says if other foreign leaders can't trust what he says if the American people can't trust what he says. That's a problem. And you don't really expect a president to routinely mislead on so many. Ways. I mean the other thing is. He's trying to get a gets us the right about these things. I don't know he'll talk. Glenn I'M GONNA I'M GONNA. Have you think about that because I need to jump to a break? I major with Glenn Kessler. The book Donald Trump and his assault on the trip back. From CBS News. This is the takeout with Major Garrett. Welcome back in a special shout out to our audience, listening for the second week on Sirius Xm Channel One twenty, four fantastic on Sirius Xm and to all of our terrestrial radio stations to most recent KFI and being my hometown of San Diego, and Katie, k. and Pittsburgh great to have you on. The takeout radio network, and for those of you who are early adopters on the podcast platforms. We know and love you same thing on CBS Glenn. Kessler is our special guests. Donald Trump and his assault on the truth on truth is the book. Can, class'll is the head fact checker for the Washington Post. He also works with Salvador Rizzo and Meg Kelly. That is the. Team, so I set you up, Glen! You're chasing these things thereby amplifying what he says and he's basically using you to his own publicity devices. Well I don't really accept that either he. The fact checks when we say hey. It's four Pinocchio are worth rating. This is false doesn't really help them in terms of getting his message out. I fully admit that. Not, everyone will buy our analysis, or they will look at it through a partisan lens view. These fact checks like little. Paper boats I. Put on the river and they go off and who knows what people do with them. And there is so. Studies have shown that when people who support Donald Trump. Read fact checks that they come up way better informed about what the truth is, but it doesn't necessarily changed your opinion of the president. and in fact The Washington Post. We we did a poll last year where we replicated a question that was asked fifteen years ago. where we. Republicans Democrats independents asked. Is it important for a president to be honest and trustworthy right in fifteen years ago, seventy percent of Democrats, Republicans and independents. Said yes. When we redid the poll with the exact same question. Seventy percent of Independents and Democrats still said yes, but forty nine percent of Republicans said yes, then that's statistically significant, and it suggests that they understand the president is not telling the truth, but because they supported politically, they decided. That's not really important attribute for president. Any right I want to ask you about something that I wrote about in my book. Mr Trump's wild ride and reflected conversations I had was many trump's supporters in two thousand sixteen, and it went something like this. I know he's not factually accurate, but he speaks larger truths or truths that are more important to me. He's onto something that's bigger than the Washington power structure or establishment wants admit, and when I would ask for specifics, the first thing almost always was immigration, the importance of a border wall to them trade, and the hollowing out of the manufacturing sector of our country and getting tough with China, not just talking about it. And I came away from those conversations with the general assumption that they're feeling was many politicians were factually accurate, but misleading them about their intention, trump was factually inaccurate, but honest about his intentions, and they were willing to take the ladder, and we're sick of the former well. What do I look at it? As part of trump's secret sauce for being elected in two thousand sixteen. was he said things that a lot of his core supporters already believed to be true. But previous candidates would say it because they actually knew they weren't true. so for instance trump would routinely say millions of illegal immigrants are crossing our border every year now, a more conventional Republican. Candidate Mitt Romney or Marco Rubio. Wouldn't have said that because they knew it wasn't true, they would frame it wage of saying. Adl Illegal Immigration Asleep the worry about we have the crackdown, but they wouldn't say something so demonstrably untrue. But trump was saying it. Millions of of illegals are crossing the border. It sounds like finally. There was a politician of telling the truth. And some of his more controversial statements, all fell into that room. Another example is his claim that thousands of Muslims for watching the fall of the trump towers cheering in New Jersey a Jersey City. The Twin Towers Right Right Dour, yes, and. Again no factual basis for that. But Trump He didn't back off. He doubled down and there were many people that believe that to be true already so again he was. He was saying false things, but they felt true to his supporters right I remember. During the two thousand sixteen campaign. I did several stories on whether or not he actually opposed the Iraq war. And I got a ton of criticism from trump's supporters, saying you just hate him. And I'm like no I'm trying to find out exactly if what he's saying today comports with what he says. He said back then in most cases it didn't. Right like I said he's completely situational. We looked into the Iraq. War thing to there's nothing indicating opposed it, but. You feel stick with the script. No matter what. So when I was in college, I had a beloved professor named how lister. He's passed away, but he was instrumental in teaching me some of the fundamentals of this business and this great phrase that I've never forgotten. That's not just a fact. That's a true fact. And what he meant by that was look. It can be a fact that somebody said something. It's a fact that somebody said something. That doesn't make it a fact. You've got to check that thing that was said. And go deeper. What is your assessment of what fact is and how you know it's a fact. And how does that process work in this work that you Salvador rezoned? Make Kelly do. Well. It's an interesting question. Being you know the the the fact checker. The the column at Washington Post, we use statements by politicians as a jumping off point to right deeply about complex policy issues. And one of the reasons why we started the trump database was a lot of things that trump says, or can be dismissed very quickly as factually wrong, not particularly interesting, so we didn't want to be bogged down with chasing the latest tweet. At, distracted from our. Core mission which is to we explain complex policy issues. Do. That's the rationale behind what we're doing what we didn't realize was. Trump would start to say so. Many things on a daily basis of were wrong that the database became this all consuming project. But ideally a fact is something. It's not really in dispute and part of the The tricky thing with politicians is they're often trying to sell you a policy and the just tweaking that. Statistic just a little bit to make their policy look better or to make the opponents policy look worse. And you, we try our best to. Dig, through all the data and talk to the experts come to conclusion is a real advocate of readers. You're confused about this. Year's the closest. We can come to ground. What's the, Pinocchio? You made a reference to it I want to make sure audience understands exactly what the Pinocchio is. Well We have what is the Pinocchio Scale? How we rate the politicians as the accuracy of the politician statements I. It's like a reverse restaurant review four. Pinocchio is the worst. It's a whopper. A goes to three Pinocchio. It's sitting in this mostly false to would be halfway through one Pinocchio. Unfortunately, we don't give very many of those. Bother wreck. It's in the ballpark mostly true. It's slights shading, and then the usually we will give something called the Japan checkmark, which means it completely factually true, and we reserve that for a claims that are unexpectedly true. Politician says the sky is blue, but we okay, that's an interesting fact check, but suppose they said the moon was made of green cheese and we determined that was true. You'd say well look unexpectedly true. Agenda checkmark. And I should know we if a politician says I messed up. I made a mistake I made an error in tells us that we do not award the Pinocchio it's. were. we're doing it. The shame people so of a politician admits error. Nokia's though it's often hard for them to do that. Has the president of the United States this president ever received the Japan checkmark or come remotely close. Oh interesting question. I believe on occasion he has maybe once was in the campaign. But I'm sorry. I monitor the presidency. Okay, very good very good so Glenn on the other side of this break we're going to play some sound bytes from you and I'll give you the page citation from the book and you have you describe some of the things the president said, and how we said them, and we'll go through the fact. Check on that. I major, Garrett. You are listening viewing and thoroughly enjoying the take our special guests Kessler of the Washington, Post, the Book Donald Trump and his assault on truth back in a second. Speak! From CBS News. This is the takeout with major. Garrett Glenn Kessler Special Guests Book, Donald. Trump and his assault on truth Glenn I want to play for you. Some sound bite from the president. This first one referenced in Your Book Page Eighty six October twenty eighteen about US steel. Steel is now building seven plants. The steel industry has literally revived. Helping plants. Seven plants eight plants how many plants? Actually the number was zero. The number that number of growing I think at one point got to be nine plants. and. You know us. Steel is a public company. If they were doing such a major expansion, it something that would have been announced publicly. And the president claimed he heard this in a phone call with the head of US steel, and There was some. Reopening of A section of plant that was already operating that sort of thing. But it was just it was just a fantasy, and the interesting thing of that was US steel simply would not talk about it. They didn't WanNA get crosswise with the president, so they just maintained radio silence for just not going to answer this question. which from a journalistic point of view is not one of the more complex questions you've ever put to anyone Have you opened six or seven or eight or nine new plants? Exactly exactly, this is tough one. I got the I. Recall I. Don't have it in front of me, I. Recall I got a statement. That was very obscure, but I said. I wrote. Basically they're saying the president is wrong, but they don't want to say it in so many words exactly all right I'll see another example for you. This is from January twenty twenty about. President Obama and the Iran deal Oh. Baba, gave me one hundred, fifty, billion, one point eight billion in cash. Got Zero Zero. Zero. I'd love to have that money back a lot of money. One hundred fifty billion dollars President Obama paid and one point eight billion in cash. Whoever saw million dollars filed up as a promotion in hundred dollar bills a lot, so that is I think it's fair to say Glenn One of the President's favorites chestnut of his. It rolled out a lot. Give us the fact. Check on that okay. There are two elements to that. There's one hundred fifty billion. This was not money for Obama to give you know. Obama along with the. United States along with. Six other countries Russia China. United Kingdom. France Germany negotiated agreement about restraining the weapons nuclear weapons program of ran. As part of that, there was an unfreezing of assets that. Iran had. The blown to Iran that belonged to banks overseas, none of which were in the United States. And you know the one hundred fifty billion is the far end estimate of what that those assets could have been worth the US Treasury action, said it was about fifty billion, the Bank of Iran settlers about thirty two billion. you know a lot of it was? Stop can things they couldn't unravel anyway, but it was never money that Abacha gave your ran out of the US. Treasury. which is what it sounds like. It was always yeah, always as we could've used that money, but oh, it was never hours the give. It was frozen Iranian, money and The. Know Anyway just one of his favourite justices. You say, but it's completely false the one point eight. One point eight million in cash that had that's a separate thing which had to do with the release of some hostages and Iran, one of whom was one of my colleagues at the Washington, Post and There was a separate longstanding disagreement between Iran and the United States about a deposit ran had made states for some weapons back when the Shah Ran. The country right and we canceled the purchase as a result of the Iranian revolution, and the subsequent taking American hostages held the money. And Iran always said you can't hold that money. You never gave us the weapons. Penalties and interest accrued. This was an international financial verdict. ministrations previous to this one had ignored, but didn't make it any less valid, and the eyes of the Iranians and in this context negotiation was one of their asks. Right exactly, and so you know. Technically. The the resolution of this a money issue was not connected to the release of the detainees, but it did turn out that the plane for Yes, carrying my colleague did not take off until the plane carrying the cash showed up in Tehran right now. It's one of those it's one of those diplomatic artifices, but again it's it was money to the United States owed to Aram. Precisely and for those who are fascinated about that conversation, and it is exactly that a fascinating conversation go to take out PODCASTS DOT com scroll through archives, and you will see a show. Devoted to that conversation with none other than Jason Resign. Who is the colleague that Glenn Kessler is talking about last one This is about Chicago and Afghanistan all over the world docket about Chicago. Afghanistan is a safe place by comparison. It's true, not true right right. Well, you you just of these apples and oranges, kinds of things I, mean you comparing a? City to entire country, so they got that problem right there line. Maybe we should. What's equivalent to Afghanistan Maryland or something like that is so? Basic problem but there were in the same. Service Chicago is a high homicide right, but the number of people killed in in Chicago is far less than number of people have been killed in Afghanistan of the same period of time. I mean if Ghanistan is a war zone. It's not the same as Chicago precisely, but that would be an example of the president. Using something he knows is false to amplify something that his supporters believe is fundamentally true Chicago's a dangerous place out of control and badly ship. Right because guess Chicago they're. RUN BY DEMO it's run by Democrats right. Right. Exactly exactly so. When you think about the. You mentioned this earlier and I want to drill down on this. You said you don't want to chase the things that Donald Trump says. That are not linked to kind of substantive policy. Does that take away. A third or a half of the things that you could fairly say about the president or untrue that he says. or Maybe something like you're sparing yourself ten percent of work I mean how does that? Influence your daily or weekly or monthly workload separating it on policy as opposed to something that just a misstatement, exaggeration and or untruth. Well, it's. Really done the math and I have to admit that sometimes. We simply have to backtrack such as when yesterday. He falsely suggested that this demonstrator in Buffalo was somehow you part of a staged operation? Make the police look bad or when he said Joe Scarborough, the MSNBC hosts had possibly you know murdered. His aide who also suggested was maybe his lover, so things like that. You kind of feel like you have to weigh in. but because the danger of not fact, checking them is that they can take on a life of their own. Right and we all get there's that. So you WANNA. Stop It. NIP IT in the bud in some cases also. The scarborough thing. He said at a dozen times, so we. You know we wanna know when things are being repeated in what looks like a deliberate effort of some sort of propaganda So that And, we do I showed. We have this week because of Donald Trump we created a new category, called the Bottomless Pinocchio again to deal with that question about ally, and this is a where we identify a statement that has been deemed. Either Three Pinocchio. Four Pinocchio False and it's been repeated. Twenty or more times, so therefore we have, we can say you know. The president really should know better. But he's now. Keep saying it, so that's that's an maybe. A different way of saying line because again. We can't get inside his head. But do now nearly forty statements like that where he really should know at this point. That's the voice of Glenn. Kessler Washington Post. He works with Salvador Rizzo, Make Kelly on the fact, check team, book, Donald, trump and his assault on truth stay tuned for segment for Jessica. Birds from CBS News. This is the takeout with major Garrett back on CBS. Sirius XM radio radio stations around the country, and of course all the best podcasts platforms. I Major Garrett this is the takeout are continuing conversation working from home? Not doing the show the way we usually do Glenn and I would much rather be in a restaurant. Having an adult beverage well all speak for myself having an adult beverage and a meal Glenn. We'll get around to that. We'll get to that at the earliest opportunity I promise you. The book Donald Trump and his assault on truth Glenn Works Salvador Rizzo and make Kelly they are all together. Authors of this book does the White House get in your face about this process, or does it not care Glenn? You know generally they don't really respond that much to us. They sometimes they engage a sometimes. They don't I mean some just decide. It's not worth. Trying to I guess defend the president They've never really said anything about the database with its nineteen thousand claims they've never. Disputed that or Questioned what we put in there. The president. He seems bothered by the Pinocchio He's about Twenty Times now. He is talked about how he hates. Getting, Pinocchio, And if we and whatever to Nitpicky, you know if he's ninety nine percent right? He gets a parochial and he's called a liar so. He's clearly noticed in itself, not true. Right exactly. Has the president ever cited your work about somebody else. Yes, constantly aid if we give four Pinocchio of. Chuck Schumer. I Gave Four Pinocchio Schumer for a statement about the tax bill, trump trump trump trumpeted that. Quite a bit, and then when we gave four Pinocchio Adam Schiff, the his peach Damasus he could not stop talking about it of course at one point I think. He said he got ten Nokia's not for CRA Nokia's. Back to the exaggerating meter, which is. Word I just invented. It applies. As you know long before Donald Trump this whole idea of media fact checking was scrutinized by those who brand themselves either ideological or partisan conservative saying it is disproportionately hard on conservatives and Republicans and lighter touch on Democrats slash liberals. I'm sure you've heard that criticism. Evaluated? Well I don't I don't agree with it I know that Brock Obama was not happy to get Pinocchio either. And I'm sure that White House did fight you on those Oh. Yes, yes, euthanasia, all. I'm guessing. Yes, exactly. I would be up until midnight getting. They would like if they thought it was going to be even to Nokia's I'd be midnight. Were they say here's another professor you can talk to. Here's another person that will back us up and. They took it very very seriously. And I always say between the two political parties. They're exactly the same way in this core thing. This core element. If they think it will give them a political advantage, they will exaggerate. And it's that's the nature of politicians. As I. DON'T THINK WE'RE EASIER ON DEMOCRATS THAN WE are on Republicans and I can tell you the the pushback we get from. Some Democrats is sometimes even more intense than anything. We ever get from Republicans I was of subject of many critical articles by Bernie. Sanders supporters We tend to give Bernie a fair number of Pinocchio Switch. They seem to incorrectly believe was because we were. You know doing the bidding of mainstream Democrats to try to bring down Bernie our corporate Democrats or something like that right we were. We were just trying to stick to the facts. So we're, we're the subject of criticism. No matter WHO's oxes being gored right, you mentioned before we went to break something that because of its frequency in Joe, scarborough, case or because of it. Surprising nature this accusation about the seventy five year old gentleman in buffalo you felt compelled. To fact, check both quickly summarize those cases, so those who are listening can understand the work you've done on both. Okay, in the case of Joe Joe, scarborough when he was. A member of Congress. Twenty plus years ago, and he was actually hit announced he was going to retire one of his aides in one of his Florida offices a had A. Had something like a brain aneurysm or something like that and fell against. A. Your desk and was found dead the next morning. And interestingly. There was some people on the left that tried to make it into some sort of conspiracy involving Joe Scarborough and trump years later as now picked it up and suggested this. A cold case needs to be investigated. by all accounts he you know it was thoroughly investigated by the police. There was no foul play. Joe Scarborough was hundreds of miles away. He barely knew the woman. And yet trump suggested that he may have actually been somehow romantically involved with her, and this needs to be investigated is just ask him. Questions is kind of the way that the White House defends his statements on this, but actually we live whole chapter book about trump and his enemies, and how he goes after people that he thinks have done him wrong. and we don't have scarborough. That's a recent development, but that's typical of the way to President operates and this gentleman in Buffalo. In Buffalo. Apparently, the president was watching an episode on one. American news network which is A. A! Tiny little network to the right of Fox News, and they air all sorts of strange, often factually inaccurate reports. And they ran a report that was based on a blog post by an anonymous person that were suggesting somehow this seventy five year old man who was. Knocked over by police. Critically injured was somehow using. His cell phone is a kind of police scanner to. You know in working on behalf of at the Feta. It's pretty deep into conspiratorial reads and again it's kind of shocking. President would even raise this issue and tried to promote it. And, it's that kind of thing that sort of sounds an alarm within your team. Hey. I wonder. Do you struggle with the idea? Oh, this is so. Outside of anything that is remotely factual. We shouldn't waste our time on it or do you say no? We have to, because it is so far outside and we need to try to tether it to something in reality. Well there, there have been times when we've said No. This is so far out of line. Jump worth we really are already five articles in the Washington Post website dealing with this, and then we regretted afterwards because it becomes an issue so I felt in the case of the Buffalo Man. It was important to get something down so that we could refer to it. In the future of comes up again. I've gotten kind of a sixth sense of when trump is going to. You know it's not a one off thing that he's going to actually. Make an issue out of it so I kind of feel like this might be a case of that and gaze of your scarborough obedience now a dozen times you said it. Was, a case of we've got to get this down for the record because it looks like it'll be a bottomless finocchio. Very good, that's the voice of Glenn Kessler. He and his team Salvador Rizzo, Kelly the authors of New Book Donald Trump and his assault on truth for our radio audience. Sadly, we have to say farewell. Those on podcast platforms NC bsn stay tuned for the takeout I'll take a special where I'm going to answer the question for your kids. If you WANNA, grow up and be a fact checker. How do you do that? We'll talk. About, that on the other side of this break, I major Garrett for the radio. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next week. From CBS News. This is the takeout with major Garrett or takeout take especially. L. Major Garrett Glenn Kessler The Washington Post our special guests. He and Salvador Izzo and make Kelly. They comprise the fact. Check team at that August and important American newspaper, and they written a book. Called Donald Trump and his assault on true so Glenn! How does one grow up to become a fact checker? Well. We all are in this business, but I mean you're the. Capital T. Capital H. Capital E. With quotation marks around. The fact Checker! Right well, it's not necessarily something nice set out to do. I've. You know the post had created the fact checker. In the two thousand seven campaign was started by a former colleague of mine, Michael, Dobbs. Correspondent he was between books. Twenty eleven I revived it 'cause it was deck was only for the campaign I. That is a permanent feature. The editors asked me to do it. I think they chose me, because I'd cover all sorts of at cover just about every building in Washington. I spent nine years as the State Department correspondent for that. Congress I covered. The White House I. Mean we sat next to each other and use gentler in the capital. Down on absolute, so I knew where all the. Bodies were buried, so and we're. The reports can be found, and where you can run these things to ground. That's the that's a phrase I've mentioned before, and people may not know what I'm talking about, but in the trade we talk about running facts to ground. Right so process. Right Ed lots of contacts lots of sources. I had. I had done fact checking during the presidential debates. There was something I propose to the post when I came. In one, thousand, nine, hundred, Eighty, eight so I didn't two thousand I remember having funny phone calls with. Ari Fleischer. and. The Gore people were crazy about them. They were so upset that I would say was wrong and Ari would call me up. Say we don't really care. Right which goes to this under thing I'm GonNa talk about which is. This space in American politics. It's always been there. Perhaps it's larger now than ever before I don't know. But where people say okay, those are those facts, but I have my beliefs, and you can have your facts, but I'm entitled to my beliefs, and I can vote on them and the ninth thing you can do about. It, we're not trying to challenge people's beliefs, and in an oh my feeling like I said defect checks. It's up the people with what they what they take away from it. And what they do with them, and how they integrate what we disclose the facts in terms of their own political behavior. But they ideas like. Let's have a common base of truth and understanding. Is My? My feeling is if you're if you have to manipulate the facts in order to sell your policy then, maybe there's something wrong with your policy, not a problem with the facts and if One of the problems we've increasingly face in the United States in this very partisan age. Is People aren't even operating off the same factual basis. There's one narrative and there's another narrative and the two will not meet up so hopefully we are there to help people on both sides understand well. Here's some ground truth and from there you can. You. Know, decide what you want to do with. The ask you something that I'm really really genuinely curious about which is. To what degree do you and your team operate under a fierce deadline pressure one of the things that's become true in our careers Glenn. And the digital revolution is deadlines are not what they used to be. They are so much more rapid. The pressure is so much more intense. and I wonder if there is something about this work where you have a little bit of latitude to say no, we we need more time. Yes, definitely definitely you know we don't publish a fact. Check to. It's ready. We try to have at least one fact check day, but we don't Nestle. We don't abide by that. and. You know we I refuse something called. Live fact, checking you know. The president is making the speech right We only will lie fact. Check things we have previously fact checked. In the case of trump, it's relatively easy because he often says many the same full range over and over again. But we're not gonNA necessarily fact checked Salim on the fly. If we can't run down to that, point will say you know you're gonNA. Have to wait a day to find out if what was said in the democratic date was correct. Because, you know we need to actually check it I right. With a with a with a trump speech in live fact checking, you might just do what you might find in end notes or a bibliography it'd. Right right. Have this database. So. Go searching. Said this much before. I would be remiss if I. Let you go without asking you the three threshold questions. We've each and every guest at the takeout table or takeout work from home table. So in whichever order you prefer most influential book in Your Life All time, favorite movie or one of your favorite movies, and if you're going to indulge yourself musically, what kind of artist are Sean? What are you most likely to listen to? Oh okay well musically I basically listen to the Beatles. Never progressed from the wrong. So beautiful songwriting there some fantastic. Exercise Music. It's just every Beatles album ever put together. So I. Guess Me James Rosen. Yes, exactly. And Favorite movie I. Guess I will fall on the Godfather or citizen Kane one of those two. Not The post. Actually report all the president's men I mean come on. Paper One of my favorites, the paper, the third man, actually if you want something lighter, yes, supposed writer. It's the third Matt that's excellent, brilliant and influential book in Your Life. You know. There's a book I read. Long long time ago, it was called by Nikos cousins ocoee. It's called report to Greco, which was kind of a semi autobiographical work and it was very influential early on in talked a lot about how you just you have to persevere. You have to work hard at what you do and try your best and. Exceed Your grasp at all times excellent. Glad, it's been a pleasure. I very much appreciate the time. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and a bit of the process with our audience. Because I think you and I would agree. For a media under stress, transparency matters more than ever and being open and being able to have a conversation about how this stuff is put together. Is a service to the audience that I hope helps reinforce a bit of confidence in the work we do, and you're the work that you do and your team does is and sounds like a cliche, but it's not the best in the business, so it's been a pleasure. Thank you glen. You're welcome. Thank you one more time. The book Donald Trump and his assault on truth, the authors Glenn Kessler Salvador result. Make Kim the next week. Ladies and gentlemen by by the takeout is produced by Ardent Jamie Benson Sarah, Cook Emily Watson Zoe, poindexter and Jake Rosen CBS and production by Eric, Tucsonan Grace Seekers and Daniel People's follow us on Facebook, twitter and Instagram at takeout podcast that's at takeout podcast, and for more go to take out PODCAST DOT com. The takeout is a production of CBS audio.

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