Small Changes for Big Impact w/Bumble's Whitney Wolfe Herd
Hey listeners read here exciting opportunity that you're hearing about. I if you're interested move fast this fall mashes scale becomes a Harvard Course in partnership with Harvard Business School Online program program were introducing a one time only virtual course starting October ninth and running weekly until November sixteenth each to our session will be taught by different World Class H. B. S. Faculty member an all be your professor for the final six class in the session. This immersive experience is limited sixty participants and three hundred observers. That's it once we're field. Were filled if you're a founder under C._E._O.. Or senior executive at a company that lives in breathes scale we want you in this intimate. Learning opportunity with your peers has a leader. It's hard to find a moment when you can step back and think alongside other leaders. This is your chance no matter where you are in the world to learn more and apply go to master scale dot com slash Harvard and then you have friends that are beginning to become young adults and they want to go out to the club and the only club in your area has one step in order to get into it and you're in a power wheelchair. That's sort of doesn't go well together. I found video games to be that outlet where I could take my Super Nintendo through my friends draws and we could hang out for our plan our street fighters or three threes kind of fighting games with my cows that were super into beating each others butts that but what beating virtual streetfighter is Stephen Spawn C._O._O.. Of The nonprofit able gamers I found the deeper delve into you the world of gaming the more. I felt like I was just like everyone else. We're all the same we're all of this gamers. Missile Steve got in a competitive gaming which requires quick reflexes and precision timing in order to win but he was facing a far greater challenge so my disability is final muscular atrophy which essentially only means that over time my muscles get weaker and weaker. What happens is I lose abilities as we go on at the same time that Steve's muscles were weakening Feo game controls were getting more complex but Steve was determined to game on my hands thirty getting weaker and I had to find a way to continue to do what I was doing without being able to do the same physical movements and I am technology guy so I knew there had to be technology out there somewhere that could bridge this gap between my abilities and my desire during his research Steve turned able gamers at the time it was a blog aimed at helping disabled tabled gamers continue to play there was an article that the founder Mark Verlet head put up about you can't play world of warcraft with only one on and I knew that that was Bologna being seeing the adolescent twenty year old that I was? I was like mark you're wrong. This is lion rights and you suck and instead of turning me away like the it's not in as little kid that I was like. Oh Yeah you think you can write. I better better than like Oh yeah well. I will do better than you. Despite that adversarial beginning Steven mark soon hit it off mark and I got the work and we created a guide for developers to be able to make their games as accessible as possible. Many of these measures were simple tweaks there would have huge impacts for millions of disabled Gamers but the biggest stumbling block was the classic game controller the picture in small buttons clustered close together Heaney twin joysticks position offend under each thumb. It's a design aimed at amplifying the smallest movement into onscreen glory but partic- able the players it can be frustrating alienating obstacle not everyone's abilities include being able to grab a standard controller with both hands in order to play one day a giant of the gaming world came calling Microsoft so able gamers got to work in secrecy with Xbox for over three and a half years. They basically said you need to see the super cool thing that we're doing and we think you have some some amazing advice for us. We went cool. The sounds awesome. That's super cool thing was called. The xbox adaptive controller was quite literally a game changer for disabled players these kinds of after controllers allow you to capitalize on your abilities. Maybe you have only one or maybe you don't have the ability to rapid-fire pusher pointing finger. Assistant technologies can take those controllers. There's and change where the buttons are being take technology. We can change them just a little bit. We can make them better for everyone. In the adaptive controller is just one example of how small all but thoughtful tweaks can change everything. I believe the smallest feature can make or break your product. You gotTa have incredible talent at every physician. Of course there are fires burning when you out such an idiot go back to this easy. I have no idea what sorry mistake with time it right work apartment not all ten years later today. What happened digest this his master's scale it will start to show in a moment afterward from our sponsor A._W._S.? One of the most iconic shoes that we sell are the Nike airmax these are the shoes shoes that Michael J. Fox war and back to the future and they auto lace. That's Eddie Lou C._E._O.. Of the ECOMMERCE site goat that's greatest of all time and though self lacing sneakers they go for up to fifty two thousand dollars. If you're not a sneaker head he may have missed that high end sneaker resale is a big business. It's also a global business and that's where has an opportunity and challenge we started seeing international sellers. I start listing on our platform but we had no way of servicing the sellers internationally because we didn't have any of the logistics or infrastructure set up for them. Eddie knows that an international marketplace isn't something you just step into like a self lacing shoe he he needed to buy some time to get his platform ready so he made a weightless for sellers outside the U._S.. And that wait list. It's thirty five thousand members long. They are very vocal at asking us when we will start supporting them Eddie's feeling the pressure his challenge to scale his infrastructure globally your challenge to help him. If you think you could help Eddie scale sales globally go to masters of scale dot com slash A._W._S.. It's part of the startups helping startups series from A._W._S.. A._W._S. isn't just the world's largest provider of cloud based services. They're also a hub connecting startups with each other. Help Eddie solve his challenge at masters of scale dot com slash A._W._S.. I'm Reid Hoffman founder of Lincoln partner gridlock and your host and I believe the smallest feature can make or break your product. The challenge is recognizing the impact of that feature and making sure it's actually positive as a founder or product manager. You should always be on the lookout for small changes that can have an outsized impact while small changes typically lead to incremental improvements every so often the impact is exponential. I wanted to talk to Whitney will heard about this because both of the product Roddick she's launched are known for a single distinguishing feature that set them on the course from massive growth. She was a co founder of the dating APP tinder famous for letting users swipe right on potential matches after leaving tender she thought it another dating up bumble which has grown to fifty million users and two hundred million dollars in revenue fumbles success also lies in the seemingly small tweak Whitney made the established published dating APP format like Tinder User Swipe through profiles of potential matches if they like what they see they swipe right if not they swipe left if a two users swipe right on each other's profiles they can message each other but here's the key difference on bumble. Women have to make the first move. This tweak doesn't just change how dating apps work it aims to change how dating works period it rewrites our cultural assumptions about how people connect and connecting with people understanding what makes them tick has always been Whitney's Dr Remember telling my father right before I went to college. I want to go into advertising. I want to go to marketing. I want to connect with people and I remember my dad's saying. I don't know if that's advertising and marketing that you're saying that you're passionate about your passion about something else. As it turned out her her father was right so I show but university and I try to apply to the advertising department well I flunked the exam bombed it did not get accepted and it was shocking to me because every question on that exam lacked empathy emotion there was no human activity involved. It was all about eyeballs on the commercial that you played it was clear from the cold hard numbers staring out from that exam paper that Whitney wasn't cut out for that type the marketing she wanted something with more heart and soul. I ended up going into humanities and studying global studies so the classes I took globalization. What's the impact of putting a smiling Ronald McDonald? Mold versus a frowning Ronald McDonald in different countries it changes the game. It's all about humans and emotions and connecting with the individual wherever that individual is it's hyper locality and that's marketing Whitney's remembering here a famous famous corporate case study it turns out that certain cultures mistrusted the broad smile of Ronald McDonald when Ronald offered a more subdued expression customers poured in this learning from McDonald's of all places stuck with Whitney and there's a lesson in it for all of us. If you recognize both the universals of human nature and the hyper local nature of human culture you can literally we turn a frown upside down for millions of potential customers wouldn't he brought this ability to read a room and the market with her tender. It was twenty twelve and Whitney was visiting college campuses to promote the APP strangers connecting was not something that that group of people millennials if you will wanted to touch I was really taking it and convincing my peers that was great to connect with people you didn't have access to wouldn't visit a dorm rooms and student unions convincing people to give the APP retry her persistence and persuasion pulled them in but what kept them using it was tenders secret weapon the swipe it and it's fascinating to see that you can take virtually similar product because let's be real with each other tinder was not the invention of dating APPS and they've been on the market for very long time and not just one or two. I mean there's a flop sort of them. Okay the famous tender swipe that wasn't actually in the very first versions of tender but the novel mechanism that required users to both like each other was there people tap a greenheart free us and a red x for no oh it was this tweak to the dating experience that set tender apart from the other dating apps that filled the APP store and this small tweak soon had people swooning for nowadays as you can swipe the just about anything shoes apartments tweets dinner options baby names when you want to adopt a pet three you in a child. The Swipe has become as much a part of our shared user interface as the doubleclick or the desktop trash can swipe made tinder hugely popular within two years of launching. It was processing a billion swipes per day the swipe also contributed to a darker side of the tinder experience. It was aside Whitney inner tender co founders had not foreseen we had this product and we were getting all of these people to basically get on it and then go free match with each other talked to one another. You're on it now. Do as you want but no one had really been able to imagine just what could come. I don't think at that time we were thinking why people are going to get married and have babies or this is going to end in a really dangerous date. The small changes to a service can amplify behavior for good or bad and it's hard to rain in once this change has caught imaginations and become part of what your users love love about your product. Although these small tweaks can be the key to hitting massive scale they can also have unintended consequences. People loved moved the new approach to finding matches like a pompous monarch at simple flick of your finger could decide the fate of a person you could select someone as a potential suitor or banish them from your life forever. Many of those matches were based on nothing more than a profile picture and a brief self introduction. There were worries that the casual flicking through hundreds of profiles was desensitizing it encouraged people to dismiss dismiss other human beings in milliseconds at worst it encouraged people to be shallow and insensitive predatory and vein and miss effected how people viewed each other and how how they interacted tender soon became a by word for meaningless hookups. The platform was also rife with reports of Misogyny and harassment. No one was thinking of the consequences and I think what I learned from my time at tinder was the minute you encourage someone to use a piece of technology. You are inherently responsible and so I think that always lingered with me as I was there and then as I left what are the consequences of this technology and I think what we've seen with this explosion of tech dating or tack meet UPS is there is a dark side to it wouldn't he got first-hand experience of this dark side when she left tender hinder following an acrimonious departure after leaving she filed a sexual harassment lawsuit against the company as part of the Settlement Whitney is very restricted and what she can say about that time but she can't talk about the aftermath breath the very public attacks she was subjected to I became under attack by strangers and so I was on the other end of what it might feel like to be exposed on the Internet to people when I was being bullied the online I just couldn't understand why this was the place that young girls and women were meant to be all day long and I think that was really what started to shape the next thing for me. It was a dark time for me but it also helps shape her resolve to try to make a change to how people talk to each other online. I really started thinking. How can I approach this from a unique perspective intake Mike experience that I've had in building a brand building a user base and then my understanding of data and technology at this point? How can I really rethink social media in the context of kindness and I understood that just like bad behavior can become addictive have been viral? Good behavior can also be contagious and kindness can also be contagious. This is proven psychological theory note. How Whitney wasn't simply throwing up her hands and saying the technology itself was the problem rather the optimistic product created in her believe there were good aspects to social networking? We just needed to tweak the technology in such a way it amplified the good while mitigating the toxic but you could claim that altering the entire way discourse on social media was conducted was a lofty and perhaps foolish goal even if well intentioned however lofty goals do not necessarily fail because they are too ambitious rather they can sometimes fall apart because the methods to make them happen are too forceful imagine the options for saving the Earth from an imminent asteroid impact the most forceful and spectacular who launch a barrage of nuclear warheads and blow it out of the sky however while that might solve the problem the resulting debris cloud could create a whole bunch of new do things to worry about goodbye satellite network telecoms and G._P._S. systems hulo radioactive rocks raining down upon us a safer approach would be to detonate a carefully calculated amount of explosive to this close enough to the asteroid and we could tweak it's orbital path nudging it off its collision course with our planet and avoid blowing that asteroid Smithereens similarly Whitney didn't want to explode the norms of online behavior. She wanted to nudge them in the right direction. Her idea was a social network named Mousy that had one on small but impactful difference to all the other social networks that had gone before the caveat was you couldn't just leave a random comment no comments only compliments and this was in an effort to engineer and to to create contagious digital behavior note how Whitney pictures the cascade effect that this small tweak could have instead of just a simple like it would be a like attached to complement and those compliments were going to be very much focused on non physical compliments so instead of saying somebody looks thin or somebody looks beautiful it's going to be you know you light up my day or when you walk into a room people feel happy it was going to be compliments that were very much focused on the antithesis of what society has really focused on which is beauty and wait and a lot of these more superficial accolades which I was trying to get away from Whitney was caught up in this idea. She was certain that making the right tweaks to the standard blueprint for social media could change things for the better. She was also certain of one other thing and never wanted to care word dating again when something out of the blue happened and the dating world came knocking on my door. It was my now business partner. WHO's been instrumental in bumble? He is a pioneer of the dating space. Just not so much domestically mystically very much overseas that partner is Andrei Andreev founder of the dating network Bodu. He was excited at the prospect of applying the mercy model to online dating but I wouldn't he wasn't interested. I said no Andre on the you understand sock can happen. We basically spent days and days negotiating over. How could I change the Internet for women and girls and how could he be happy by working with me? Andre and I got fortunate to run into each other because had I sat in a room with any other entrepreneur particularly any other male entrepreneur adjust don't know if they would have seen in what I was trying to say and he understood so clearly because he'd been dealing with data and insights of user behavior for a decade and he knew firsthand that if you can't get women you really you have a lopsided experience and so as he heard me really speaking passionately about this concept of making a safe digital ecosystem for girls and women I think he had his own Aha moment which was wait a second. This doesn't mean we need to go our own ways and we can't work together. If I can convince her to do a dating APP maybe she can find a way to build this mission into dating Woodley found herself back in. The dating APP game it was the last place she had expected or wanted to be after tender. He just had a hit on the feature that would set bumble apart discovering the small tweak would reignite Whitney's passion for an industry that had burned her out and just my change the entire way online dating worked will hear all about Whitney's journey back into the dating APP world right after the break ooh. We'll be back in a moment afterward from our sponsor A._W._S.. We're talking about lead their snakeskin and Nylon Mesh Gold. We're back with Eddie. Lou Co founder of the premium sneaker reseller goat and those materials he just listed off. These are all things that exist on sneakers especially for limited edition addition high-value height sneakers sneakers made of gold may sound like a punchline to a hipster joke but it serious business for Eddie who searching for a way to open up to global buyers and sellers when your product may contain actual golder snakeskin again you have some additional rules to follow you need to understand not only how to localize the product but understand tariffs duty customs taxes Eddie had a list of thirty five thousand would be sellers waiting waiting impatiently for him to open up international sales but he faced a mountain of regulatory road box and compatibility issues. There are places like Hong Kong that don't have zip code so when we require Zip Code in our address field it doesn't work in in China facebook and instagram logging don't work because they're blocked Eddie faces logistical legal and linguistic hurdles at every turn to scale a friction list customer service experience Eddie needs a unified solution to such a thing even exist. He genuinely doesn't know do you. If you think you could help Eddie scale his sales operations globally good masters of scale dot com slash A._W._S.. It's part of the startups hoping startup series from A._W._S.. U._S. A._W._S.. Dream bigger build faster help Eddie solve his challenge fast at masters of scale dot com slash A._W._S.. Before the Break Whitney took the unexpected leap back in the world online dating APPs with their new business partner on the on the love and they were determined to find a way to break from the rampant toxicity that was becoming the norm we were sitting around and kind of being our heads against the wall and saying okay. What's this going to do? What's GonNa do and I was sitting there and I said all right? I need to understand dating what's broken in dating what's broken in dating and all of a sudden. I just had this so what hurricane moment in my mind and I said to him. Okay think I've got it. What if we take the standard dating platform but there is a catch once the match takes place? Only the woman can initiate conversation so this is basically like a woman and a man locking is at a bar but he has no way to contact her and she understands that he's interested because that match or that lock. I has taken place but it's on her. The only way to have contact is that she has to unlock it so I said women must make the first move. This is going to reduce harassment. This is going to reduce bad behavior. Women are not going to be spammed and women will be empowered and encouraged ridged to actually be in the driver's seat the more Whitney thought about it the more she saw the potential to rewrite the rules of not just dating but but social interaction it was another small tweak that could have a massive effect. We essentially made very subtle design changes in the sense that the user flow was very familiar right. We weren't trying to reinvent the wheel we were just trying to reverse it and so everyone was familiar uncomfortable with the experience yet there was that caveat of once that match was made the woman had to speak I which was so contradictory to what the expectation had been <hes> past hundreds of years of dating and then of course the past few years of digital dating and so it truly was such a small product change but with such an interesting social impact but even such as simple simple concept explained in such a simple way was hard for people to grasp we have to really reshape behavior because women are taught not make the first move women are taught not speak. I taught never send that I message to initiate and men are taught to be very aggressive and really beat down that wall until she says yes that's Disney. That's everything and exactly Cinderella. The carriage you know is gonNA turn into a Pumpkin midnight and I said those words I said you've twenty four hours to make the first move otherwise you're carriage turns into a PUMPKIN and we have to take such a simplified notion of these gender dynamics quite literally down to Cinderella trying to convince people to do things your way is a problem familiar to anyone introducing a new product or new wave doing things especially as people might not even consciously know what it is they want. This is something Marissa Orissa Meyer came up against in the early days. A working on Google Search has ten twenty twenty five and thirty because of the time yeah who was serving twenty results per page and serving as many as thirty dollars per page and we wanted to see what the optimal number of results per page was when Morrison or team asked users how many results they wanted per page. That was a clear preference. I'd ask people in some early users had he's how many results for you wanted to be like twenty great twenty-five even better thirty thirty best of all however when Google tried serving different numbers of result per page they found quite a different answer. The answer was ten was fascinating actually because one of the key measurements was how many searches per user would be done. How many pages deep would they go? How many times they have to revise things like that? As we looked at like I page search results requested per user and basically it fell off dramatically between ten and twenty twenty-five if I was even worse thirty first of all the results were really dramatic. It turned out that the perceived benefit of having more results per page was offset by different factor one that was barely perceptible acceptable yet extremely important users even if they didn't realize it consciously the thing that popped was it actually took Google longer to prepare more results and so when things I've always talked about is that latency agency in time matters a lot more people than they can use the articulate it was that people just didn't want to wait that extra split-second one of the big advantages of Google just was that fast but waiting longer for more results which is something people generally didn't WanNa do especially given the the first time results were generally only got enough. Goulden need to convince their users that fewer results or better they could just serve up the optimum number ten safe in the knowledge that this is what people preferred despite what they might say however Whitney face the challenge of trying to change the way people interact. This is especially difficult when it's something as personal as dating a lot of women that I heard the idea why am I going to text for. I'm not what they mean. Why would you ever do that? That doesn't make sense building. The new system was the trivial part the really important thing was working out how to make these new an unfamiliar ways of behaving become second nature and make the users delight in the new approach. So how did you start building that new norm what that was really hard so that was really tricky especially if to understand where I was at that time Whitney was still dealing with the radioactive fallout surrounding her tinder departure getting people to follow you down an unfamiliar path. It's tough even when you're not a pariah. I had a scarlet letter on me. No one wanted to talk to me. Nobody wanted to work with me me and nobody wanted to download anything. I was telling them to download. It was a try and time and there was not a lot of supporters and that's why that early team that I gathered you know they're still with us today and we had to will push really really hard. So what was the was it persistence was it techniques to surprise and delight. Was it addictive kindness. What were the set of things start moving that norm so back to the smiling Ronald McDonald Donald or the frowning Ronald McDonald it was all about the way you position this so you could say to a group of guys? Hey download this platform. You have to behave if you are disrespectful. Oil You're going to have consequences and women are the bosses they're in control and you have no power. They might run for the house in two thousand fourteen or you could say hey guys aren't you tired of constantly being the one that has to reach out and just getting rejected time and time again I mean that has to be hard for you right that must be tiring to constantly have to put yourself out there and get turned down nine out of ten times will. There's a new product where when you mutually like somebody they come to you by reframing the bumble approach as being positive for everyone wouldn't he hoped everyone would embrace it. It is refreshing rushing because it alleviates the rejection from men but it does something really special on the other side. The whole notion of bumble is really to recalibrate these norms write music about pre bumble connecting online or even connecting in general the man starts with the power. The woman is meant to be you know Damsel in distress and so that creates this imbalance it sets up a very dangerous toxic framework. The whole effort is to take some of that pressure and that aggressive nature away from the man and to infuse confidence respect empowerment equality accountability and this lifts the woman up and it really balances on says out the Internet can be seen as a distorting mirror that emphasize and compounds the uglier aspects of human interaction however it can also be a prism that reflects new ways of relating which other back out into society so where you think about whether it's cat calling on the street or on a digital platform men constantly trying to get someone's attention and being rejected at all times. This feels aggression this feels. Abusive behavior this creates toxic behavior and I'm not saying that behavior cannot happen on bumble. Trust me you know we know everyone that has scaled a business to any extent even two thousand users you can never ever control humans but we can do is try to point them in the right direction. Unfortunately we can't make a bumble like rule for interaction in real life putting an end to the cycle of abusive behavior will take more more than a few nudges a few tweaks a few new features and only years to take effect and this is part of the huge power of technology. We can build interaction on the terms we choose we can also experiment the rules of engagement and doing so maybe the north we adopt will eventually filter out into Wider Society for there was always the danger of unexpected consequences. Even in the controlled told interactions like those on bumble initially bumble gave women twenty four hours to send the initial message to men they had matched with they didn't than a chance was gone. However men could take as long as they wanted respond? They might take day that might take a week and so here we launched this product and you know we have the best intentions in mind genuinely like we really have a northern star of how do we and misogynistic behavior in relationships okay okay well. Let's start by empowering women but not in an effort to destabilise men but to invite them in while what we realized was by giving women this time restraint but letting men respond at their own free will this was actually going backwards and this was. I'm not doing anyone any favors and so we needed to hold both parties accountable bumble at it in a requirement for men to respond within twenty four hours or lose the chance it was another example of how even a small tweak doc made with the best intentions can have an unforeseen negative impact. How do you avoid making these mistakes or when you make them? How do you course correct as rapidly as possible for Whitney? The answer is through eighteen observation and a deep understanding of your users. The users are what give us every move we make except for the very first move right it started somewhere but then they took it and they drove it and so women in came to us and they're like hey listen we get y. You're giving us a twenty four hour time restraint. We like it because Kinda makes us move but I don't think it's fair that he doesn't have to respond to me. We heard at once totally recognized. It hurt it twice. It was in development when we moved fast and we personally apologize. Thank them. Thanks for helping US tweet this. This is an approach. The bumble team has brought to Chappie. It's dating product for gay men which launched in two thousand sixteen when you think about gay dating apps they've actually been incredibly non inclusive to gay men. It's been very much engineered towards anonymity and very hyper sexualize behavior but there's never really been a product that actually facilitates dating love true relationships. Why would we offer that to the street community and why are gay men alienated from that makes no sense and so the true goal of choppy has to be inclusive platform that allows men to be more than just a casual fling? How does Chappie aim to achieve this another ingenious tweak of course the beauty of the new Chappie is that we have have the sliding mode that allows men to really get what they're looking for? Whether that's something casual with no commitment or if that's something more serious in the romantic perspective or in fact they might be looking for friendship in which we give you a dedicated mode for that so it's really the first APP geared towards the gay community that allows gay men to really go after whatever connection there seeking not one that they feel has been imposed on them by the product chappie features a subtle yet highly impactful change that users loved in the same way that an original tweak set bumble apart from the dating at pack transforming the norms of online dating for the better and for Whitney dating is just the start. She's expanding coming the bumble effect into other unexpected realms the bumble rule of interaction that only women could initiate contact appealed not just in finding dates but in finding friends are users started behaving differently friendly. I started noticing team started noticing young women and men alike saying not here for dating has been just got a job somewhere or looking for this new life thing right but had nothing to do with dating Whitney or team. We're smart enough to follow where users went our users basically hijacking our product to use it in a different way we were hearing success stories we would meet people and they'd say I spend my roommate on bumble. Send your roommate on bumble and so we built Bumblebee F F and that was platonic friendship but dating and friendship aren't the only areas bumble users have become interested in including one. That's particularly close to home for me and our discussion. This is particularly entertaining because I recall seeing a headline that goes bumble C._O.. Takes aim linked in this is Greg Office yes exactly and and what was the decision to expand beyond what was the theory of it okay well for the record never wanted to take aim. Don't think we could lovling than big fan just for the record. I feel exactly the same about bumble. The dating days are long behind me interestingly enough lo and behold inside B._f._f.. They start networking with each other. They don't want remains. They don't want friends. They don't want to go to yoga. They want to build a business. They WanNa meet someone that works in an H._r.. Recruiting or whatever it was a ha okay platonic friendship is not necessarily the appropriate place for business. Let's expand beyond this and so it was really just letting the users operate as they wanted and going with them note how fumbles users latched onto that original small tweak and began using it and ways Whitney or team hadn't imagined this is a gift that every smart leader knows they should make the most stuff wouldn't he has become a master of understanding what her users want and then making the small changes the bumble that helped them achieve their goals and as bumble expands internationally. She is already on the lookout for the tweaks that will allow bumble to scale in different cultures bumble is not some crazy new idea that shows up and changes everything. It's just giving people something that they've already been within them and so going into India place where women now are more empowered than they've ever been. Their voices are finally being heard. They've always had their voice. Brianca says that the best Brancheau Bros.. Our partner in going to India but now it's a moment where India is really listening to women and it's been fascinating to see women and gravitate to this product. We've only been live there for a couple of short months and I think in the first few weeks we had a million I moves a woman making a first move in India is so culturally unheard of that. This is really interesting moment not just for us but to see how this can really shape out. It'll be interesting to see how it works. Well the degree to which you can become a force by using these kind of communities of Communication Fan of belonging participation coordination the dance as you were if you can improve gender relations in multiple cultures that will be simply awesome. It will be it. Let's hope we can have some small role in not. I think it's absolutely the case that small simple things can change the entire dynamic of how interaction works how we see ourselves and our place in society and and the importance of mutual appreciation we just need to opener is to find these tweaks and Oprah our minds to where they might take us. I'm Reed Offman. Thank you for listening now a final word from our sponsor A._W._S.. It's that passion of line that we want to recreate great online not everyone can afford thousand dollar pair of Travis Scott Jordan ones even though you can't afford to buy it or you can't bite right now. We still want you to experience that shoe. We're back with Eddie lieu of goat the premium Ma'am sneaker resale spot when we last heard from Eddie he was battling a mountain of legal and logistical challenges to expand his platform globally thirty five thousand would be sellers are languishing on his waiting list hoping to sell sneakers through goat we pride ourselves so much on trust and safety and bringing authentic product to different markets and it's so important because Nike for example was the most counterfeited brand in the world. Go has launched Beta test and a handful of countries like Hong Kong and Canada but these piecemeal solutions leave Eddie underwhelmed. He wants a solution that scalable dealing with more than one region at a time so he's asking masters of scale listeners for your help but ask for me is the ability to who seamlessly connect global buyers with global sellers there are so many intricacies with sending physical products from one country to another global compliance taxes duties duties customs inspections localizing payment processing payments remaining two sellers or anything else yeah. That's the root of it so we're calling you yes you the entrepreneurs hackers business leaders and problem solvers listen to this show. Do you have an idea to help Eddie scale his international seller platform and bring those thirty five thousand weightless sellers into the mix bring your commerce hacks and solutions for Eddie two masters of scale L. Dot com slash A._W._S. A._W._S.. Dream bigger build faster help Eddie built his global commerce platform fast at masters of scale dot com slash A._W._S.. Masters of scale is a wait what original the show is reported on site in California and produced at the studio inside S. Y.. Partners in New York our executive producers are June Cohen uh-huh and Darren trip. Our producers are Chris McLeod. Adam skews Jenny Cataldo Jordan McLeod and Ben Manila are supervising producer is Jay Punjabi original music by Alison Layton Brown sound design mixing mastering.