Density and distance
And Welcome to Monocle Twenty, four, the urbanism, the show, all about the cities we live in Andhra talk coming up on today's program. Only Christian. Austin is also has to do with approximately governance and capacity of cities too often invade enlisted in thirty years from Al Two third of the population worldwide reliving cities. That means that in the next thirty years, we have to build citizens for exactly the amount of people who right now living in cities designing an up and call accommodates. Everyone is the key to a successful city, however, the idea of density. Done right has been cast into doubt by global pandemic has managed to disrupt almost every facet of city life. Today we ask if density is the real issue here, and if the very idea of the city is a threat or should we be taking a step back and reassessing what the real cause for concern is urban areas I guess explore all that today right here on the West with me. Andrew Tuck. Experiencing an historic reversal in the global surge of people ditching small towns in the country for the allure of the big city, the pandemic is changing so much back, Americans fleeing big cities in record numbers with many preferring the suburbs during the coronavirus pandemic wants to be locked down. We decided we wanted to be an apartment building and you wanted to have more in for. Family and talking about the fact that people are staying away from towns and cities This is the scene in Trafalgar Square Bright Spring Day. As you can see, it is absolutely deserted. These are some New Yorkers are now wondering if this is the time to pull up stakes from a high density area like the city and move to the suburbs before the next pandemic hits. As various versions of lockdown swept the globe in early twenty twenty, an exodus was beginning those who could fled the city to the vast open spaces of the countryside for fear that density was the big body when it came to virus transmission. Fast forward six months and city streets may seem a little quieter, but it's clear that the majority of citizens have remained. It appears that working out how risky living is for. The spread of illness is not quite as simple as per square mile calculations. There are other aspects clearly at play. Well discuss this and more I'm joined on the line now by Cecile Mazo nerve chairman of the urban innovation think tank laugh break. Cecile recently wrote an op Ed titled Long Live Urban Density and she believes that the dreaded D. Word might not be as scary as it sounds too great to have you on the show. Can You I to explain why you don't think density is such a bad thing. There is nothing new under the sun each time there is pandemic we. Density for being men responsible off the answer on. Or with been seen as a place where. Diseases deal. But the fact is if you just luke where these pandemics. You will see zapped. Of numbers. He. Acted by virus are affected by the disease itself. You have as many people in dance cities as in rural area, which touch program is not so much entity off living institutes. Question is advancing social interaction, and this is why may be Ronald I pastor is in France, for example, was in a medium size Eugene de. France but the reason why there was trust to act simply because a religious meeting people at huge, very anti social interaction and these codes that clustered not to heck with leaving in a very. Another example if you take the density off Paris Twenty thousand inhabitants occur mature. While City outside off Carry Slack Sandy. Nasty is three or four times weaker. A number of cases. was much more imposed in to once again, we talk about social interaction. Also about who housing condition? Condition when not talking about Density cafe. So does that mean to you that we shouldn't change the way that we're designing ACETATE PER SE. We should continue to think about more density and Acetate is adding in more apartment buildings but just making sure that people know that if something like this happens, they have to use their personal space, their apartment space to disconnect from other people to meet in smaller groups, for example. We know cats throughout the history of cities are being built against Damian issue tax exempt from London Texas apples Paris. They are the result of the long history of relationship between cities disease. So it's not news that we take into account when building cities question of diseases why would say regarding the current situation is the way you view I mean the architectural shape buildings your way you building in relations with a mother is as important as density. Diamond SMOOTHIES is up. For example, you have same Dante between central London or high pay. And speaking, you don't have a meeting experiences the city because architectures. TV's. As two different. So when we talk about drawing lessons from whether, we are currently living through. It's more about as you said, Wiki away signed building. We organized Austin's with the way we organize comments aces, for example, inside the billion outside of building mall. The only action. Density and Tummy uses site in your article this reference to the work of Baron Houseman in Paris building. These amazing. Palmer, buildings have come to define the city for outsiders, the look and feel of it. You say, perhaps we should look to his example actually am reinvent housing the delivers central courtyards, green spaces, a sense of fresh but good density. Why did you think that Barron Houseman was quite good in what he did at the time and and what lessons would you like to bring forward to today? I said Paris is also the in work and from when we come a city. Intel substanti- key. You have to compare it not with London Belene but with that kind Bangladesh artist kind of cities and. Barrels man did to reach very high density while at the same time, you don't have the feeling. This well. The precaution between the built environment, the buildings upsets on public spaces you very well. So it's a huge question when you build a CD or when you revealed as summary Maria you. Take into account. Not, just about building on there and here it's about abortion the relationship between spices on open. Second, point what is important in the city is its immutability kept. For transforming it, and there is nothing Intel's occupational transform. Ends Minimum Flats. It can be an office for medicine doctor it can be private housing. So it is important also to this kind of reversibility of us h when you think about built environment and. NAS compose the. City is a CT which he designed for walkability. There is this approach off eight year what he the EEL boxing in. which enable the building yet tibbets commercial activities to be working distance with. CYBORG, at the same time. So this is the way of mandate in the nineteenth century and I can see why today we couldn't apply those principles in in Ireland and actually all that we see throughout the cities all around the world putting into question. I. To to. Is Really about rethinking this relationship between the built environment and the way we move in society and we are from our daily activities and just fine lay defoe reasonably confident than about what lies ahead for cities in France and around the world do you feel that learned some good things at this time in the actually we could come out of this stronger. Said has been shaped by continues he's stirring and if we think about it. All cities up some. I in France all the. States themselves. Will. To thrive even up to his ending now. One condition that we say is to draw a lesson from what we are county eating through, and this is a question of how resilient cities are. He's not only question off architecture of is also has to do with finance and capacity of cities too I would say to on debate with this, he didn't do project all set in the future success we walked to leave in anticipation of Resilience and Governance Wisdom Eastern me absolutely key capacity to reshape avenue environment after the neutral crisis. Cecile Mazel nerve chairman of laugh at break. DETAILLE. Thank you for your time. Up next on the urban EST, we look further north to Copenhagen stay with us. Now, for North, if you're on the discussion, we turn to Denmark. I'm joined now by Yes but new Gore the CEO of the Copenhagen based Philanthropic Association Real Dania. The organization has worked on a number of Copenhagen developments including blocks an enhanced urban space in the city's port and blocks hub the Nordic hub for sustainable urban is ation. Yes. Thank you for your time today I. Could you explain a bit of history behind real? Dania and what you're trying to achieve with the organization. Real Daniel we used to own a mortgage institute and we saw that to a bank twenty years ago, and then we will lift with a rather big GIPP pile of money, and for the last twenty years, we have been working with philanthropy where our task is to increase the quality of life primarily for the Danes through the built environment. So everything we do is trying to use philanthropy to Peter and create a society. And in these years, we have been able to donate around twenty billion Danish Kornel between two point eight and three billion euros. We have the same size almost as Rockefeller both inequity in donation, and our task has been trying to improve the quality of life for the Danes with all kind of way to ward like a modern philanthropies. Trying to engage people trying to work with development knowledge data trying to create a huge effect of what we're doing influential Nasi that you have one, hundred, sixty, five, thousand members was the role then of the members in this world of modern philanthropy. When we saw this more than in year two thousand, we have the choice between being. Foundation or continue to be an association and we continue to be legislation. Denmark is a contra with a lot of. The average Dane is a member of more than twenty, five association and the board member in between three and as ation. So our society has for hundreds of years been created on associations so we chose to be. Continuously and today we have hundred, Sixty, seven, thousand members everybody who who owns directly or legally a property can be a member and we want to be the you say the common ship for people with interests in the built environment and you say a lot foundations in Denmark and in Europe who are created by one found of who invented a window appeal or Whatever they on their own will legality and legitimacy. We're born the Galaxy, but we're not own geomancy Mississippi and we thought that sation way. The way of having members would be a way to create that legitimacy of what we're doing. Now for many years, the redevelopment of Copenhagen especially harbor has been a benchmark for other cities to come see from around the world. You've been instrumental in in helping. In particular with blocks a physical space, a space for people to meet a connection of cycle ways explaining what this is a you effectively the owner of large chunk of the harbor. The way we work with philanthropy is that sometimes we take ownership sometimes, we help people changing a mindset. Sometimes, we donate so people can create new knowledge and do something different. Or something donate money. So other persons can develop burr concrete. and. In hoppers Denmark we have in all twenty years trying to help this transformation from being at Industrial Dockland to be a half of a people that transformation is globally and it's also in Denmark and we have been helping. Ten fifteen places in Denmark in this transition and in coping. Speak landfilled the last in a hopper downfield lift where until nineteen sixty dollars a big brewery burned many years ago, and then there was this piece of land lift which has been very very difficult to figure out how to use and how to engage in the city, and we chose many years ago, two thousand and fall to Inter relationship with the city of Copenhagen. So we could help transforming the inner city to hop for human beings instead of an hopper who used to be an industrial hop and with that reason, we chose to make our. By far biggest investment in creating blocks as a destination as building and a way of transforming at previously cert- pot of coping into live urban space and amusing point for Iran. So we tap into some Britches and this big building and the room where we could create liveability, which is a very important part of the Copenhagen DNA to make a livable city and you proved yourself that be pioneers of sustainable innovation hub for the whole Nordic region but as we Should jump to this moment where we are now over the last six months or the last five months since the pandemic began many of the things that you've been championing bringing people together events festivals have been challenged, and at the moment Denmark after a very good summer is saying it's numbers of infections rise. Again, how much of you had to think about that space? Its meaning for the city is adaptability as the pandemic has hit Copenhagen Denmark in rest of Europe. I have to wind little back because the ambition creating blocks was both to create a modern house in a city will allow function. You know may the Dutch architect things that buildings has to have all functions from a city within it? So you have architecture center, you'll have a avenue for creation you have housing, you have a restaurant, you have a space where can do things. So them vicious with blocks has been extremely high. We have tried to create fantastic room for the architects. On a two, they could illustrate how architecture can make a difference for all of us in our alive design architecture is so important to create a Beta live and the blocks ambition has been to convene more than seven hundred people working together from small companies big companies. Companies from startups from researches tried to develop new solution to a sustainable of innovation ride. Now, fifty percent of the population in the world living in cities enlisted in thirty years from now, two two-thirds of the population worldwide will live in cities. That means that in the next thirty years, we have to build citizens for exactly the amount of people who right now living in CBS's three point seven billion people. And that could either be the catastrophe for mother earth it could be the solution if we do it. Right. So the Bishen with blocks was to build a place where sustainability in architecture design could be developed talk about percents both fall professionals and from ordinary people like me and that ambition in appeared will pandemic is extremely difficult all events in the. Area has been canceled for months when we had the lockdown, all the people who have to work together to go home the exhibition. Danes architects to send the heck to shutdown gobbly. Some of it has owned again now again with some restrictions but we have seen that even in a digital world, we can't do some of the things, but it's very difficult to convene people who don't know each other and to invent new things and to have dialogues of things if you can't be together. So what we have done, we have made a special effort. In, trying to create a Kobe nine nine or corona campaign we have donated. Hunting seventy five million Danish corner in trying to help our society to be a little more sustainable. Very very inspired by the UN symptoms build back better. So every time you have a pandemic everytime, you'll have a catastrophe have to do something on this show of that. That is Beta than society was befall. If I have to be able to into my children's is all in the futures is is very important for me for real. They knew that five years from now we can look back and say we used this crisis not only to create employment and jobs and growth and wealth in our society, but also do it. More sustainable to do it more aligned with the institutes from you in and more aligned in the climate challenge, and we do that in blocks but we do that in our whole portfolio with this. I. Think that is extremely important. The projects you're involved with are going to be long term have been in the pipeline many of them for years already, and you have to think years ahead about what the world will look like a need just out of interest. Are you thinking that you say five years and I should we begin to move just six through this pandemic? We know it's going to roll on. Certainly into spring next year, you thinking that the world will come back together on won't be in city spaces, dense rubbing shoulders with each other sharing workspaces or you planning now in rethinking your program of projects and the things that you're looking at to think well, actually maybe even Danes will want to work more remotely lead to be out in the countryside that perhaps some of the. Things you had planned and had ambitions for won't be so relevant in the next five years. Old Man that's a very tough question. That's a lot of things about the pandemic. We simply don't know yet density is extremely important for the climate. So the amount of space used to live is as little as possible but density in the European context density in Asian context and density in. An. American context of very different and things. We don't know about the virus still we don't know if it's more spread in buried in areas, but we know that the city is the spaces are used extremely different, and probably for sure we will have to design our ceases different in the future and we are very keen on that topic and bureau engaged in it for several have. Supported a big study that. He'll has made where they in falsities in Denmark and in other cases in other places in the world has been making a starting, how will the city used before the pandemic? How was the city used doing the lockdown and how was the city used after the lockdown and there's a lot of knowledge to take from that survey and they have made a lot of snapshots from sample. The few pedestrians the peak use it's Times has shifted. The dominant activity observed in public spaces has changed crying lots to there's love taking from the Kobe nineteen experiences we have to work with, and we will definitely go the next years trying to see how can we come? In creating Livable Betas is who on the one hand trying to help with the climate process and on the other hand help with a new takes from pandemic experiences we have had for the last six months. Yes. Banou Garcia Real Dania. Thank you for joining us here on the arborist. For this edition of the. Today's program was produced by Kaleta Rabelo and David Stevens David also edited the show and play you out of this week's episode. Well, his the Beatles with altogether now thank you for listening city lovers. I. Six seven, eight, nine. On love you. See the I think. Yang love you. Fail the. Old. Home. Off. Aw. Latin. Think. Off. Off. Oh. Poke. Talk.