A Ring Galaxy Discovery
Love this podcast support this show through the ACOSS support of HR. It's up to you how much give and there's no regular commitment. Just hit the link in the show description to support now. Fifteen seconds guided journal and. Admission sequence UH. Space Nuts. Three. To. Five. report it feels good. Hello again thank you for joining us on the space nuts. podcast is episode two, hundred and sixteen more word. And next week it's episode one thousand because we can't count My name is Andrew Dunkley joining me as always is professor Fred. What's astronomer large? Hello Fred Hi Andrew How you doing? I am quite well, sir. How are you? I'm doing fine. Thanks. Yeah. All good. I am a milestone this weekend or last weekend with the knee. Because of being free of the industrial strength painkillers now drive again, which is great. So You. Six. Weeks. We'd. Restrictions on people who take drugs I, don't understand that. Were good drugs. Imagine this. Yeah. Some of the strong painkillers because they've changed all the rules in stride era and now there are certain things that he used to be able to get over the counter. The now have a prescription for and it's much much harder than it used to be the to get pain medication and all sorts of other medications and I suppose that's because people were abusing them. and turning them into things they shouldn't have. Three. So the instant remarks disarm assery pain because of people who WanNa make money on the side yeah. Thanks a lot. but but you're the pain isn't too bad. Now it's doing case still exhibit as I said, six weeks after the operation it's. A seems to be doing really well I'm doing my physio program and you know up keeping keeping hot at work at it just to make sure the new knee joint doesn't seize up or anything like that But yeah, it was a big. Drive success me back to a normal life basically. Indeed yeah and my back saved up three weeks ago I. So I understand the pain you're going through. Thanks for the crunchy little letter you sent meets good on Ya. Thanks. Let's talk about what's on this week we are going to be talking about this this distant galaxy that made the news by the white sides wake. This waker is whitmer. Do we introduced a couple of really amazing stories and answer a couple of questions one of which actually relates somewhat to this particular story about this this galaxy that appears to us due to a gravitational effect as a ring. But when you unravel it, it's a more amazing There's also concern in this why doesn't surprise me? That landing modules on the moon could pollute the ice. The order is shock who would have thank it and we got anywhere answer some questions today one Brian about whether or not. We are just a universe inside an atom inside a massive universe was something to that effect and another quirky little question about the the universe and whether or not. They could be another Milky Way Galaxy and son editor in another part of the universe all very interesting stuff which we will unravel today on the space nuts podcast. First Fred. Let's look at this ring like. Or looks that way from our perspective. Indeed, that's right and I. Listen. Andrew to to see if they can see a picture of this because it is really an amazing image. It's A European Southern Observatory press release, but he's also been picked up by the media. So he so is the organization that issued this. Is Data from the. Array the Atacama. Large millimeter. In Chile which is partly operated not completely, but partly operated by the European. Southern Observatory. So that the headline for the. Press releases almasy's most distant milky way look alike, and if you can of do search not you probably find it because they image is extraordinary it is almost a perfect ring. And like that, because of an effect called Gravitational Lensing, which I've talked about before but this is a very special. Sort of situation in the effects in the what you've got is a galaxy, a distant galaxy, which is exactly in line with a very, much more distant galaxy. So To basically three galaxies in a straight line because we're in as well. So from. Point we say a galaxy. which is in front of a more distant one, and you might think well that just you know the nearer one will block out the light of the foul, but it doesn't of course because of the. Gravitational effects of the near a galaxy store space around it it makes space behave like a lens. In fact, it makes a space behaves like a gigantic telescope because you effectively magnify the the distant Galaxy Beyond and certainly. Increase the. Light intensity of it but of course, it also distorts it. About the particular case of distortion that you see here is what Einstein predicted in I think was nineteen, thirty, six member. Rightly he predicted in a situation where you get two bodies exactly lineup the further body would look like a ring. It will be stilted a ring and that's why it's called a nine Stein ring. He didn't believe we'd ever see these things but. In the nineteen seventies we started picking them up. This is really stunning example of of an Einstein ring. But what is I think even more stunning is that given the computational power that we have today and the algorithms used for? Essentially reduced. Reducing the data. Scientists are able to to look at that ring look at the structure in it and anybody who's looking at the picture will see that is nobly, is is not just a perfectly uniform bring a Scott variations in intensity around it circumference. But we with modern computational facilities, you can take that ring and you can basically say, okay, we know what the effects of the gravitational lens walls let's. Basically turn the ring into what it would have looked like if we could see this galaxy directly. Any fights on the ISA press release there is a rather nice video that shows that process taking place while you go from a ring to to galaxy by. Lube essentially something called involving to turn into the original galaxy itself, and then that's where the story really starts because it turns out that this galaxy, which is twelve billion light years away. So his life is taken, you know almost the full age of the universe to get here. It's rather like the Milky Way, which is a surprise. The resemblance to the Milky Way is this galaxy has a disk and he also has a bright nucleus bright cord to it which our galaxy has to. What don't cease fire alarms? May Be just because you know that sedate tell too difficult to reveal or perhaps more likely they have formed yet because this galaxies in baby galaxy. It's only you know something like one one and a half billion years old. It's well, let me put it a different way. We see as it was when the universe was only about a billion and a half years old. So the university itself was young that the galaxy was young. We're now looking back from advantage point in a galaxy thirteen point eight, billion years old. Galaxies. Look a lot different now from what most galaxies look like in the early universe. But this one is a bit of a standout because unlike many of the galaxies that we have observed from this era which are pretty ragged looking Faz because they have got themselves sorted out yet as as as clearly has. This. One looks is it is rather neat and tidy not surprised to the authors of this work who by the way are based mostly in Europe. It's an astonishing star. Amazing. It is, and as I mentioned, it relates to a question we're going to answer lighter on We've talked about coincidences in alignment before an and one of those is when we say a total solar eclipse and it's just coincidence that the moon is just the right size to cover the disk of the sun at this point in time, and so we're very very lucky to be able to say that. So this is a similar coincidence that we aligned with Galaxy, which is lined up with a galaxy in a perfect straight line to create this. This lensing effect that gives us a ring galaxy on I think that's just incredible. It is. It is an amazing story done. Yeah, I think. You know the the interest in the press release is really about the puzzle. This is a a a galaxy that looks older than he is, and he one of the authors actually says more or less. Now, what we found was quite puzzling despite forming styles at a high rate and therefore being the site of highly energetic practices. Under. Galaxy S. P T. zero four one, eight, minus forty seven. Zero eight minus forty seven is the most well ordered galaxy disc ever observed in the early universe not the result is quite unexpected. Than has important implications for how we think galaxies evolve. So remarkable stuff. Yeah. It's an extraordinary story, but I just led by studying this one. We could learn a lot about ourselves and way we are in the universe maybe that's right. Yes because we were so that in a welded galaxies are recent product to the university and when you look back in time, you see these scruffy ones that don't look at all well ordered. Yeah, fantastic or I I would I might do is. Get the image from the website and get a producer huge. Put it up as the photo attached to this week's episodes. People can see it as we're talking about it they've they've done a couple of variations of the image some some give a really good example of what we're talking about. So I'll say what I can do. They've it's it's quite a when when when was this one originally discovered doing are Quite recently I think it's probably The usually the. One to two years between the observations in the paper being published. So I would guess within the last year Atto. Yeah Wow. Okay. We'll keep an eye out for that. When when you clicked play on our episode, you've probably already seen it on what is that will now we've told you. You're listening space nuts with Andrew Dunkley and Fred Watson. Now. Let's take a little break and find out more about our sponsor express VPN writer number one biotech radar. This is the one I use. I've been using it for a couple of years and I love it when I joined expressive APN. Now brand new new to the market but I read a lot of reviews and did a lot of comparisons and it was just something about the business model that I particularly liked and couple years down the track. Honestly. Can't complain their interface is very easy to use the service is second to none. 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We give you a commercial free version of the PODCAST and we give it to you early is just at saying thank you and once again to everybody who supports the spice nuts podcasting whatever form even just listening through youtube to get download numbers up that helps as well. So thank you very much. Now to Annex Story Fred and this one is not so positive in the astronaut Michael World that of land is on the moon polluting the water is. How human of us to do such a thing? Isn't it but this is another story under the that surprise me. Down Stein Ring. One. So they did this did too because who would have thought. That AH lander. With. Coming down on the Moon's surface with its exhaust plume helping to decelerate the spacecraft so that it does a soft landing who would have thought that the products of exhaust could actually go all the way round the moon. That's Steiner idea because the moon is not a small body. A quarter, the size of the earth. So Couple of basics, the moon doesn't have an atmosphere as we do. But. It does have what we call the next US fear which is. Basically a very rarefied gas around it. So you might think of as a very, very thin atmosphere. A, which is. You know basically very different incident hydrogens that. We know. Other things too. I'm so what we're talking about here though is. Dot being polluted by lodge comedies, particularly, Water Vapor, which is present in the in the exhaust of. Of. A spacecraft. So. This is a in fact, the the work that we're reporting actually comes from simulations it's not anything that's been measured. These modeling simulations light actually at the Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore Maryland But what the scientists have shown there is if you take just. Kind of. small-sized. Luna Honda. Nothing as big as the the Luna models that landed during the Apollo. I. Think they basically looked at something a bit more than a tongue twenty, six, hundred and fifty pound lambda that out twelve hundred kilograms. That's much less than the Apollo lunar modules were okay. So what you do, you stimulate this thing coming down with its exhaust plume, slowing it down touches down near the Moon South Pole. And that the first thing that staggering is that simulation showed that the exhaust really takes only a matter of hours to disperse around the entire mood. Really. Yeah and and two months later. Thirty to forty percent of this vapor. Actually persisted in the Lenexa via the sphere of very rarefied gas. And then they said. That ultimately. Eventually a few months after that about twenty percent of the gas would freeze out back into water near the pose of the moon. That's because those are the regions on the moon, the DAKOTAS, these places in the in the crisis neither south of North Pole while the sum never reaches. So. It's we we know there is water. Is there for many observations that particularly at the South? Pole. That is that's froze mortar in some of these craters. Now, what that means of course is that when you do scientific investigations of that water that natural water, there is the moon's polls. Suddenly you've gotta take into account the fact that that as water ice there that come from the exhaust of spacecraft, which is earthly origin is not you know this is not stuff that has arrived by comments stuff like that. And so people are very much looking forward to studying the water isis at the moon south to look at things like the. Isotope. Ratios which tells you a little bit about the origin of that water ice. If you suddenly find that there's all the stuff that's got who are very earth-like Isotope. Maybe. That's GONNA. Spoil these these observations. In fact, as the as so some of the researchers say. The So these are some of the. Yes. This is talking about the natural ice in the in the crisis of the mood, South Pole these some of the only places where we can find traces of the origin of water in the inner solar system. And reading that record requires measuring the composition of those isis as well as their various isotopes to deduce whether likely came from and how they may have gotten their frozen out exhaust gases from robotic or human exploration that collect on those Isis could come found these measurements even if the land of touches down hundreds of miles away. Is a remarkable thing who would have thought that we could. So easily pollute the moon's environment by spacecraft that have gone there already. I'm not at all. Surprised me. Honest. Had such a natural thing for humans to do. Let's trash the price. Out On it, we've we've driven around on it. We've left all junk behind. We've got a habit of doing these things. But. If I may. We know there's water on the moon. And we now there's water on the moon that we put their through Lunar Exhaust. Land. Exhaust But. Water. Would have gotten on the moon through I suppose impacts. Objects and would they have been Warta potentially on the Moon as it? was created after the impact of. Of of that unknown planet into worth. I think now created the moon. Does that too early in the in in the process for to have extracted water? It's eight full that some of the water I mean this is really specifically referring to the earth, which is also a puzzle as to to wear water came from and impacts by. Suddenly one. One answer to that but there is that suggests that you know the the the the young self embodied water molecules in its structure. And the same is probably true of the two of the move when it was impacted. By Sia is the name of the object that the hinshaw. It's a hypothetical object, but is so entrenched in our understanding of. The move came from the. She got a name. Night after the the mother of. The Moon itself a great night. So yes. So they may well have been water molecules hydrated rocks within that objected self. Meant the world from the moonies indigenous rather than having. Viacom. And these are all you know these are ideas. That is one reason why people are so much looking forward to to analyzing the water on the moon to try and see whether we can learn stuff from that. But they now to take into account the fact that the might be layer of. Water on top of it a frozen frozen water this come from rocketed sauce. Interesting stuff job every excellent work. There, enough back as I mean that. Quite a bit but. Supposed to what you have said though opens up another avenue of thinking in my mind is in the water on earth in the water on the moon and perhaps the water in so many other places. Is a multi mix of sources it's not just one sort of deposit from one place it could come from all sorts of different. Situations and created what has become a unique mix on earth I. Imagine water is probably nothing like water anywhere else. IN IN A. Minute Sense. Yeah. That's that's that's true. The key. Signature in in terms of water where it came from the isotope ratio between. It's between noble hydrogen and heavy hydrogen, which is usually called deterioration. That will conform water molecules as well as cold heavy-water. and. So it's the ratio of light water to heavy-water. Is the one of the key. Signatures of where war tomorrow come from and so that that you know that really. Just, to set the scene back in. The nineteen seventies and eighties the theory was prevalent that all water on earth that come from comets. Between our objects. And we know comments impacted their throughout its history. So take that as your starting point, but then when we started. Visiting comet. That gossip is in more detail. We founded the isotope ratio in comic water is not the same as in the water on the earth and that. Kind of suggest that perhaps comments were not the. Were not the the source of water. This is the thinking back in probably two, thousand, two, thousand, ten's. However. There one or two comments that do have the same isotope ratio as a swatter. So among the comments this variation and I think you're right that what we wound up with is probably a mixture of various different sources. Exactly as you said I think that's looking to the Roy under. Okay, now, sending a messy water to the moon. Well When time comes for them to report on what they've found when they get a chance to analyze it we can talk about it again. We'll be fascinating. Revelation are imagine plus so let Lunar Exhaust. Yes. You're listening to the space nuts podcasts my name's Andrew. Dunkley with me, Professor Fred Watson. Space. Nuts now did mention youtube earlier where people can log on and listen to lightest podcast as well as all ow material from day one dating back to eighteen, twenty two or whenever we started something. It was twenty are more. thank you for listening. Of course, we we're available on all sorts of platforms you'll. You'll find us on facebook, the official space nuts facebook page, but there's also a face book group that has been created by spice nuts listeners, the space nets pod podcast creep on facebook where you can old chapter each other share ideas and a lot of people like to ask questions and see what the group thinks. It's It's a pretty good little. Grip very dynamic. So if you haven't joined the space nuts podcast group on facebook, get look it up and say Hillary I. Think you'll find it most enjoyable. and with we've got on just about every podcast distribution platform on the interwebs. picky fiber and and listen to her say you. So desire I mean if you listen to this message clearly doing that anyway. Let's go to some questions Fred and this one comes from. Brian. Kenyan get I on a nice to have you send us in a question He asks have you guys looked at the solar system as a bigger much atom Small comparison to how they have some similarities for an eighth grade. Pipe has this been discussed and have we thought we just seems to something bigger. Now, I've seen this kind of imagery portrayed in science fiction movies and there was even A. Story on facebook this week, which may be way Bryan. Came up with the idea for this question or it's a coincidence I wouldn't be surprised but it was suggesting that the universe is just inside an atom of a greater universe. It's an interesting concept whether or not it's possible. I don't know maybe you do fred. Don't realize this but the do. I really liked Brian's. Question because. I remember you know this is centuries ago and Brian said he was thinking about this for eighth grade paper. It was probably about the same age when I was thinking exactly the same thing that you know I got your remember sitting in looking at dust particles in in a beam of sunlight. environment is the sunshine shining in the see these dust particles. Now thinking I wonder that little solar systems because I knew the atoms, the electrons around them, which were a bit like the planets of the solar system. And Kinda, Chip Mail Pouch lethal maybe maybe there's a tiny solar system. However what we know about the atom. tells us the is very different from what we know about the planet so that it's a nice analogy, but it doesn't have a you know it doesn't carry full with. Partly because. I. Guess the. When we think of an atom The the original idea of the Tim was that you had a nucleus with electrons. which were in orbit around the nucleus, and that's where the comparison with planets comes in. We now know of course, these are actually just Basically A. Cloud they're not. They're not electrons that probability clouds. If, I put it that way when you you may have an electron and you might not have an electron because of the way autumn physics works. So they just clouds of. Essentially clouds ways. That's another way of looking at them but nevertheless, the idea of of an atom with its electrons whizzing round it is still a very nice concept. It differs however substantially from what a solar system looks like because we know from both our own Selma system and other ones that we've observed around other stars the we don't have things whizzing around in different orbits at least as far as the planet concerned the planet are all in the same plane they're not at angle differently A. Slight differences a few degrees but basically, a solar system is a star then this disc of planets around it rather than what we would envisage and asked him to like with its electrons always around in different inclinations even though we now don't actually think that Mali's correct. That's the reason why the planet is rolling. The same plan is because they came from a disk of debris, the protoplanetary disks that's what they were formed it. He can just extend this one step further though because comments do behave more like the way, we would have envisaged electrons that come in all kinds of different angles the. Excuse me because we believe that comets actually come in from the Orange Cloud, which is a shell of material material around the some. which is really a leftover from the original cloud of debris in which the solar system was full. So is a nice tonight's comparison. When you? Okay. So then he say while is the solar system a big atom in something bigger an innocent is because popped the galaxy but. The IT turns out that you know the space between the solar system's making PA galaxy probably even bigger than the space between the individual atoms? Making up a solid. On Earth. A So. It's it's an analogy doesn't really carry any weight theoretically but certainly a nice way to envisage the way the solar system fits into the bigger picture. It's a good question to ask because I think we will bay as kids may as a grind up. To. Wanted if our world was just a A universe under some giants thumbnail. We've all had those kinds of thoughts because and the reason I suppose we think that is because we have so many unanswered questions about the universe and this so much about the physics and the science and the and the. Lack, of knowledge that all mix up to create these these theories, we all want answers and we all. Let our imaginations run wild and you know they things can be become real insides fiction. But we're starting to kind of get a handle on it and realize certain things can't a. but it reminds me of the original line king movie when The two mates relying Dan looking up into the night sky and One of them said to the other water water allies, lights, and the first one says it's just the holes in the cloak of not letting the sun shine through and the other one said. I thought there were millions and millions and millions of worlds just like als adding. The riches nothing. Very. Cleverly done have one of them. The same very dumb came up with the exact right answer to the middle of the situation. But you know we've all been they read. An but the great question Brian Thank you very much for it because it's nice to revisit those ideas. Indeed thank you Brian Hey from let's move onto the next question from James, Friedrich Very South Australian now he's from Loxton in South Australia, of course those who don't know what we're talking about south? Australia has a very significant German heritage. German, settlers began the the wine industry in parts of South Australia tend to be perfect for growing wine We now starting to realize that most of. Most of the southeastern quarter of a strider is great for growing wine. Now, even grow in this district, which is some quite a dry arid place at some times, but perfect for for growing. Anyway Fred James US I recently read an in this sort of relates back to our first story about the ring galaxy that we were discussing a read. Recently, an article that said the data from the bank satellite suggests that. Spacey's flat and Infinite, or at least absurdly huge and curved I wonder spice is truly infant infinite. Do you think it's possible that matter somewhere else in some preposterously far-flung part of the universe would have arranged itself so that there is another milky way another son another earth and they for another you and I contemplating the same question. it just seems that if the universe is infinite then it must be inevitable just wondering what your thoughts are on this now. Again sort of looking at science fiction. I've actually made movies about sickened earth. and. It's another one way your childhood imagination probably guys from time to time. That's right. Actually James is kind of on the money because so that that. He's referring to come came from the plank satellite, which is one of the spacecraft that men should the cosmic microwave background radiation and he get. Results from that really talk about Joma tree of the universe. And so. The belief really is that the universe is probably flat and that doesn't mean it checked like a tabletop. Maine's the geometry that we experience around US essentially extends. To very great distances in other words, parallel lines never made. And triangles have A. Hand goes up two hundred and eighty degrees. So it's Normal Joma Tree. and. That's pretty well the the the the view of most. cosmologists a blue look at the history. Of the universe is a whole and a consequence of that is that the universe is probably extremely large. And we really don't know what that means. Because is possible it may be infinite. We don't we. We were not able to see an infinite universe because they're our horizons beyond which we can't see one of them as the cosmic microwave background radiation, the flash of the of the Big Bang, which is kind of like a wall of radiation. Thirty point eight billion light years away. that. We are looking back setting point eight billion years that we can't see beyond. So we we live in a bubble of the universe, this little bubble within which we can see and beyond that, there's probably a lot more universe that might be like might be infinite. I think of it. You know imagine a beach ball or something like that floating around in a in a concert hall. And the console rep might represent the universe. The beach ball is what we can see of it tiny part. Aware at the center, of course. So. Even. Though even within. The observable universe we believe there are two trillion galaxies and that is not just a it comes from measurements made by the Hubble Space, telescope true two, trillion galaxies, each of which might have a hundred billion stars. So you're talking about around two to the power twenty, three stars. Now we know that most start planet so. It does seem like a very large number of objects even within the observable universe let alone the infinite universe beyond it if it is infinite. The obviously a great. Reservoir of potential objects that might turn out to be like ourselves and might have. You, know James and ourselves contemplating the same question another earth we know it's a, it's A. It's A. Theory that certainly are an idea that certainly has Mary e can't just dismiss that idea tool perfectly valid. The perhaps the argument on the other side comes from astro biologists many of whom think that the step from. Single celled organisms. multicellular life might be very, very rare, and therefore for the intelligent life, itself might be very rare. And that it but even then you know when you way up the statistics who knows it all comes back drake equation of gross entered. Most of which we don't most of whose promises we don't know We do know that there are planets how. Which Frank Drake didn't know any put the thing together back in the sixties still. The you know we we can only guess at the likelihood that the might be other intelligence agencies. She's out there the downside the real downside is, yes. It's there yet while they might be of the of the folks like us out that the distance is so colossal. Even within the bubble, which is the observable universe you talking about distances measured in many billions of light years and that as a very big challenge for actually finding these punitive individuals if they all they're. Certainly, rules out any kind of communication with them at least with the physics that we know about today. So it's a yeah, I think you know that's James suggests that lifelike our Species, like ourselves. Talking to one another in the same way as we are doing now might be inevitable elsewhere. That's A reasonable assumption to make but we don't know. We might never be able to prove it. Never know kids. something. You said in James's referred to about the universe flat confuses me because we've told in the past about the universe expanding at writing right in all directions simultaneously. Which says to me it's very cool. So how could it be flat? Yes. So all we talking. Material in it? No, it's just jail matry an it's a description is a polling night talk about the university flat because it does what you know it. GIVES A pitfall everybody falls into. Because it is. It does have spherical symmetry. The flatness refers to whether. Whether geometry. that we understand here on the. Weather that extends over the full size of the universe in other words is parallel lines don't mate. Powerlines don't maintain a flat. Universe but. You can point those power lines in any direction because he's got it's very cool. Very cool symmetry. It's confusing to an surreally by. Now I. Get it now in my sent. So I get I get it. Thank you. Thank. You to repeat it. Comes from the fact that if you I mean I'm sitting the title of the Moon Imagining The table that has normal geometry. with. Power lines not making trying goes angles ending up Tony Nineteen Grease. If this table was not a table but a globe and that was balancing my laptop. Rather precariously. that. Would not have flat geometry on it because he's a globe is a curved surface and the geometry curved surface different. Parallel lines meet and goes don't add up to one hundred eighty degrees. That's where the night comes from the flat universe. It's the geometry, not the shape of the universe itself. Got Ya. Thank you. Wish. Net. Thirty five years ago in my mathematics ambit. Anyway it's too late now. Much to light. Anybody's understood is. there. All right. Thank you very much. James great question gave us a lot to think about and and also hello to the other James from Loxton South strata in the other earth at the end of the universe. Thank you for asking the question. Thank you, Fred. That's where we wrap it up for another week. It's been a lot of fun have been an interesting one for science week. Yes. Indeed. That's right. scraped. Great. A have I've got a big it coming up tonight as well with CSL road talking about the square kilometer array. So I'm looking forward to that. All systems go. Or very good. Well, we'll look forward to your company again next week. Thanks, right. That's great. Thanks. That's Fred. What's an astronomer lodge here on the space and that's podcast in for me. android dunk. Thank you again. Don't forget to send your questions in via our website space nuts, podcast, dot com you click on the link and if you've got a device with a microphone in just hit record, tell us who you are where you're from and ask your question we love Odia questions. But if you don't want to do that, you can always send them in via text form and we look forward to your company on the next edition of the spice nuts podcast pays. To this. Available at Apple podcasts Google. PODCASTS spotify iheartradio. Plan. You can also stream on demand stuff on. This has been another podcast production from thoughts dot com.