How Hollywood Treats True Crime: Netflix Takes On Ted Bundy

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This message comes from on points sponsor indeed. If you're hiring with indeed, you can post a job in minutes. Set up screener questions, then zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard. Get started at indeed dot com slash NPR podcast. From NPR and WB. You are Boston. I'm Kimberly Atkins and this is on point. Ted Bundy is one of the country's most notorious serial killers his savage acts of murder, targeting young women across the country during the nineteen seventies, the live the outward appearance of a clean cut charismatic and intelligent, young man. Bundy is depicted in a new feature film on net flicks starring Zach, Ephron, extremely wicked shockingly, evil and vile. It's told through the eyes of his then girlfriend, Liz, who he charmed, even as he went on trial for murder such a good idea. I can't I'm sorry. I have to pull an all nighter tonight at the law library. Yeah. I gotta make sure the most prepared attorney in the courtroom trial starts this hour on point thirty years after bundy's execution. True crime culture. Then, and now join us do you remember Ted Bundy, the trial the fear his persona? Join us anytime on point radio dot org, or on Twitter and Facebook at on point radio. Joining me from New York is Joe Berlinger. He's an Academy Award nominated an EMMY winning filmmaker in the last six months, he directed to Netflix movies about Ted Bundy conversations with a killer. The Ted Bundy tapes is a four part documentary that premiered in January last month, his feature film extremely wicked. Shockingly, evil and vile was released on the streaming service as well. And in select dealers across the country. Joe welcome to on point. Thank you, Kimberly. How are you doing? I'm doing great. If I can manage to talk correctly, we're going to push through. The title of the movie a bit of a ton twin one get no one gets. Thank you for that. So I wanna start off by asking why focus on Ted Bundy now forty years after he was convicted of these heinous crimes thirty years after he was executed. What is it about this case that keeps the public's fascination it will, I think Bundy defies all expectations of what we think serial killer should be. And therefore the lessons of Bundy can't be overstated, especially for a younger audience. You know, he was charming good looking charismatic. He alluded capture for so long because friends and acquaintances couldn't believe that he would be capable of these horrible crimes. He kind of, you know, pulled the wool over the American judicial system, which allowed him to kind of run roughshod over his legal proceedings. The American media kind of embraced him as, as almost as perverse folk hero in he manipulated and used the media. And I, I just think for a younger generation who does not really know the specifics of Bundy, the, the enduring lesson you know, just because somebody looks in access certain way they should not be trusted. I think is a very important message. In fact, before I embarked on these projects, I called my college age daughters up to, you know, who are in as most people know, bundy's prototypical, victim are college age young women, and so my daughters are in that in that group and I spoke to each of my daughters. Both very bright, young, women have very fine schools, which by the way, I did not help them get into those schools. They did it on their own and each each of them, really had no idea who Bundy was, and I had them ask their friends and, you know, some of their friends, vaguely knew will. Isn't he a serial killer, but, but really the story of Bundy, which is so unbelievable is unfamiliar to that to that demographic, and, you know, I I've done a lot of true crime over the years, and for me to take a story on, I feel there needs to be some social commentary, some element of social Justice, and so really, I wanna put out into this world, a reminder to that generation that just because somebody, you know, looks and access certain way they don't they don't deserve our trust now, and I want to drill down a little bit more on this point, the social commentary that you wanna make you mentioned that a lot of folks of the each of your daughters. A lot of people who are college age don't know who Ted Bundy is. I think there are a lot of folks who think that's probably a good thing that somebody who committed all of these crimes should not be a should not be glorified in this way. Was that a concern as you made these two films that's been a great deal of time focusing on the perpetrator of these crimes in less on the actual victims of the crimes that it will look like a glorification. Of course, you know, there have been criticisms that we are glorifying, but I think that's kind of a superficial look what we're doing. You know, glorification would be if we didn't delve deeply into his crimes and. Not putting a message out there about what these people are capable of Dilling. You know, is we don't want to stick our heads in the sand we live in an era of internet cat fishing, where people pretend to be one thing and are often not what they purport to be. We live in an era where you better check the license plate of your Uber to make sure you're not getting into a predators car, who's pretending to be an Uber driver. You know. So, you know, I, I'm I dispute the idea that we're glorifying a horrible serial killer because we're telling their story, you know, it's, it's an era where, you know, look, I've, I've covered crime for twenty five years, and the people who you least expect and most often trust are the people who do evil in this. World. And I think that's you know, we don't wanna stick our heads in the sand and not have a younger generation understand that whether it's a priest who commits pedophilia and then holds mass the next day or you know Michael Jackson and what he did that was covered extensively in the leaving Neverland documentary. It's generally the people you least expect in most often trust who do terrible things and Bundy a pit him is that he alluded capture because his friends missed the clues. He eluded capture even his longtime girlfriend, you know, which is the whole whole perspective of, of extremely wicked. You know, didn't didn't see the clues the, you know, the law enforcement even because he was a good looking white guy in our patriarchal. Seventies, he was allowed to do things that most, you know, if this was a person of color, Bundy would have been in orange, jumpsuit and chains during the entire proceedings instead. Said he was allowed to roam free to use the law library which allowed him to escape twice, you know. So I don't believe by telling somebody story, you're glorifying them, and it's been interesting to watch the reaction. Because when the trailer for the movie for extremely wicked came out and I will say the first trailer that was released. I was not a fan of the marketing people who wanted to sell the movie at Sundance that a certain kind of trailer and that trailer seem to suggest there was violence in the movie, a lot of violence. And so the movie was criticized for by some because some people have loved the film, but the movie was criticized before release that. Oh, look at the trailer. There's violence and therefore, you know, you're glorifying Bundy because of because of all the violence when the movie came out. There's actually very little re-creations of violence. We certainly talk. About violence in the movie, but the film was then criticized. Oh, there's no violence in the movie. You're glorifying Bundy. So I think there's a certain group of people for this subject matter that it will provoke that kind of reaction do you know, the documentary series was very detailed dissection of all of the terrible crimes of Bundy and, you know, it was not focused on the victims per se. And so people said, well, where's the victim? Well, extremely wicked is all about the victims POV and, and that's being criticized as being somehow because there's no violence, and it's through the victims POV. It's being criticized as, as making light of Bundy documentary series later when I start by talking about extremely wicked. You have been on making films about chew crime for a while. But you haven't always taken the feature route, and certainly Zach Ephron is not known for. Portraying a serial killer in extremely wicked. Ted Bundy at one point was depicted being unwavering in professing his innocence. Oh, well, slandering law enforcement and the judiciary judicial system. Here is fron playing Bundy entering a question from a local, Colorado jailhouse reporter. I am. Statement that I am innocent. Do you think the police have done a bad job, because you're an innocent guy here sitting in prison, as long as the beliefs, keep their heads in the sand about me that people are going to continue showing up dead or missing from the canyons in Colorado, to Salt Lake valley, and young women are going to continue to be threatened by that person or persons. Now, if the voice of that jailhouse reporter sounds familiar, that's because it is Joe's. And that. What better role for documentarian to play the journalist who interviews Bundy Fragneau, if there was ever a role made for me? Right. Right. But just you know, before in the few seconds before we have to take a little break pudding. Zach Ephron in this role in itself was in as you move, right? I mean, he sees a beloved good-looking endearing kind of guy, what was behind selecting him to Syria, a serial killer. I mean Zach was my first choice in. And thank God, he said, yes, because I think he brilliantly executes the role and again, it goes to the whole point of what the purpose of extremely wicked is, which is to it is not a movie about how a serial killer kills. We've seen that many times, what's scarier to me is how the serial killer operates in the other part of his life when he's not killing when he's deceiving, when he's betraying when he's being charming and for and as I mentioned, I in particular I'm targeting a younger generation that doesn't really. No Bundy, and who better to encapsulate that then one of the most beloved figures for a certain young demographic for a certain demographic, for the people who I want to watch this movie Zach is somebody who can do no wrong because of, you know, he has a certain persona and who better than to illustrate this idea that just because somebody looks and acts certain way they are not worthy of your trust. We are discussing true crimes, then, and now with, with the producer of two new films on serial killer Ted Bundy, you can join the conversation, have you seen either of the recent Ted Bundy films on net flicks? What did you think about them? I'm Kimberly Atkins. This is on point. This message comes from on points sponsor indeed when it comes to hiring, you don't have time to waste you need. Help getting to your shortlist of qualified candidates fast with indeed post a job in minutes set up screener questions, then zero in on qualified candidates. And when you need to hire fast, accelerate your results with sponsor jobs, new users can try for free when you sign up at indeed dot com slash NPR podcast. Terms, conditions, and quality standards apply. A language was about to die. Once it gets wiped out. That's it. We will have nothing in our language, to pass store, children and the people trying to save it, we're still learning how to speak it Amir to hurry up time was working against, as we were like hundred years late. You know it's code switch. Yola lo fi. Listen and subscribe, this is on point. I'm Kimberly Atkins, we're talking with filmmaker Joe Berlinger about his to net flicks. Films about serial killer Ted Bundy, thirty years after he was put to death in the electric chair. You can join the conversation should Ted Bundy or other killers. Get the Hollywood treatment follow us on Twitter and find us on Facebook at on point radio. A Joe Berlinger is the director of the net flix film called extremely wicked. Shockingly evil in vile as well as the four part documentary series conversations with a killer of the Ted Bundy tapes. I wanna talk a little bit more about the feature film extremely wicked. And, and listen to Zach Ephron who portrays Ted Bundy in the film, as he describes the challenge to understand bundy's personality, and the often endearing effect, he had on others. Ted had this, this thing about him this magic, Ted Bundy facade his charm. Where he worked with people, a lot of people in prison with him, loved him cops that knew him seem to think he was an okay guy. It wasn't until after he was fully accused that a lot of fully admitted to everything that a lot, most of the world really believed that Ted was even capable of things like this. So he pulled the wool over a lot of people's is in jail in watching these films. I watched the feature I before the documentary series. And it was like a reminder like a harsh reminder watching the documentary being reminded of exactly all the terrible things that Ted Bundy did after watching this film. That was told through the eyes of his then girlfriend, Liz, you can see from her perspective, the, the conflicts that she had. But at the same time almost they almost seem like films to me, anyway, about two different p. People was that sort of the intent behind these films. Or what do you think about that potential effect? Well, I think it's the same person and they have two very different sides. And that's what's scary. And, you know, we want to think that a serial killer is some two dimensional monster that lives in the far corners of the human condition, and that there's some kind of weird, looking or social outcast or some kind of person who has no ability to fit in with society. That's the stereotype, and that's what we want to think a serial killer is because that gives us in some strange way, some comfort that they are easily identifiable and therefore we can avoid them, but the reality is again. I've, I've covered a lot of real crime over the years, and the but the reality with many of these people who do evil and particularly with Bundy is they fit into society very well they fool people for a long time. And so. Extremely wicked is a portrait of betrayal, and, and a personification of what it's like to be deceived, by that kind of person we certainly don't avoid the violent acts that he committed in the movie, we just don't recreate them. But, you know, within the first few minutes of the film, there's archival footage of, of the first murder investigations intercut with, you know, happy family home movies throughout the move, half actually a little more than half of the movies, actually, the Florida trials and in the Florida trials we hear what people who aren't privy to the actual act of murder would be hearing. And so we certainly don't avoid the terrible things he did. But we don't show. You know Zach actually committing those murders. And I think there's two points here that are very relevant. One is, you know, some people feel that by not showing those murders were being disrespectful to the victims. I think just the opposite. I'm hugh. I spent a lot of time in my documentary life as as an advocate for victims rights as somebody shining, a light on criminal Justice reform. And I think the worst thing, the most disrespectful thing you could do to a victim is to recreate the worst moment of their existence, which is when they're being, you know, raped and murdered and killed. So there's plenty of discussion of violence in the movie and by the end of the movie. And it's also you know, we live in a society, where images of violence are just a few key strokes away where even an eight year old can come upon the most violent and degrading images of, of violence of pornography violent pornography on if I was a parent of a young. Teenager, particularly boy today, I would be horrified and scared as to what's available within a few key strokes. Right. So I think this the amount of violent imagery in our society has desensitized to the power of those images. And if the movie was loaded with violent imagery, by the time we get to the final reveal at the end of the movie when Liz played brilliantly by lily Collins confronts him on death row and makes him admit to the crimes, and we cease for the first time Bundy actually committing those crimes, I think that moment, would have no dramatic power, because we would have been numbed by dozens of images of, of death and destruction up up until the point. So statically I wanted to hold off until the end of the movie. But I also think it's disrespectful to victims to show them being killed. I want to get to the phone lines. We have folks who wanna talk to you, Steve is calling. From Columbia, Missouri. Hi Steve for low. Thank you. First of all, I've seen both the documentary and the movie, and I do not understand criticism. I think it was the casting was excellent. And it was very well done if you've seen both of them, you can compare the tapes of Ted Bundy, with the acting and you can see that he was manipulative he was charismatic. And as far as the difference between. Thirty five forty years ago when he was committing murders. And now I don't I'm old enough to remember all of that, when that was happening and the country was focused on him just as they're still. I don't wanna use the word fascination. It's not fascination. It's a certain bewilderment that he doesn't fit into stereotype and. As was just minute. Just mentioned just a few minutes ago. Steve. Thanks for that. I wonder if he was a split personality at times, who didn't really believe that he had committed murders. I can't explain it but it's just. Let's pause and get Joe's thoughts on that. What do you think to, you know, there's no definitive answer? But I believe that people who compartmentalized, and look, we all compartmentalized to a certain degree. You know, we all go about our lives and, you know, forget that there's climate change going on. And forget that there's, you know, a billion people starving and living in poverty, and we all go about our lives. So compartmentalization is part of the human condition, and I believe Bundy was a master of compartmentalization, he really did like Liz or care for Liz in my opinion, and really had any need for a normal relationship in his life. And I believe he was able to compartmentalize his evil whether or not that compartment compartmentalization actually went to the point where he had, you know, we're where there were periods when he was being normal that he had no memory of what he actually did as a. When he was being an evil monster. It's hard to say but I think he was a master at compartmentalization pats on the line calling from counters point, a Pennsylvania. Hi, pat. Hi. I have a Ted Bundy story. That's never been told and I had a girlfriend who was going to college in Colorado in the mid seventies. And she and her of her female college friends walked out some trail and some state park quite a distance and they decided to nude sunbathe on the rocks and they were smoking marijuana and my friend happened to look over, there was a creek like valley creek and a hillside on the other side. And there was a man watching them at first, she wasn't sure he was watching, then she was pretty sure he was. And when you're sunbathing you turn this way, and that so the son gets you from all different angles and every time she turned over he was still sitting there and about the time that they decided to get dressed and go back to their car. He wasn't there anymore. So she told her friend to just get dressed. And let's go to the car, real quick, and they were walking quickly. And she got to the point where she could see him coming towards the creek, then she could see him crossing the creek holding a bag or a backpack up above the water and as he got closer. She said there were friend run and they ran to their car. They got in the car shut the doors locked the doors. He arrived at the car, just as they got the doors locked they took off. He had a Volkswagen bus, and he followed them, but they were able to lose them because he couldn't maneuver on the back roads like they could it was. I don't mean to interrupt you. How, how were they certain at this was Ted Bundy, while I'm getting to that? So they lost them years later, she's in bed with her husband, he's reading a book, and she said, what are you reading, and he said, oh, it's a book about Ted Bundy, and she said, well, let me see it, and she looks through the book and there's a picture of him, and she recognized him as the man that chased them in Colorado. So she just barely. Was not a victim of him. I'm absolutely certain of it. And we've been friends since childhood. I never heard this story until this past January. She thought she had told me the story before she was so upset when she saw his picture in the book that I think he was being held in Florida on death row at the time. And she wanted to go down and talk to him about, you know, this instance, and her husband talked out of it. Well, well Joe what's your reaction to that amazing? It's it's been interesting. There have been. I've been reached out to by so many people who have had Ted Bundy encounter. You know, it's astounding that he's had so much interaction with people. I want to talk a move to the documentary. The four part documentary conversations with a killer. Ted Bundy tapes, which include a lot of never before heard in interviews with Ted Bundy, you can hear him in his own voice, and you can also really get a sense of the media circus, that surrounded this case. I mean there had been serial killers before folks like Richard speck, and Charles Manson. But around this case, the fascination and the media coverage really made this the first true crime story in a sense that was playing out on the television screens of Americans. But at the same time, if you look at the way mash, killings mass shootings and mass killings are covered today. There's a reluctance among law enforced. Moment and members of the media to even speak the name of the killer nears a lot more focus on profiling victims tuck, a little bit about just how coverage of horrific crimes like this has changed over the years. And, and the reasons for that you're one of the reasons for my fascination with, with the Bundy cases to me Bundy is the big bang of our current obsession with true crime. You know, there was a there was changing television technology going on at the time. I mean, just a few months before the Bundy trial, many, new stations were still shooting news coverage on film, which meant there was no such thing as live coverage. But right around the Bundy trial, they were switching over to what we currently know who has electron IQ news gathering and satellite technology, which was brand new, and the growing interest in Bundy combined with this new technological achievement of being able to actually cover things, live with satellite, and, you know, use the satellite transmission to, you know. Broadcast live as I say, you know, pushed its way into the Florida courtroom in the Florida Supreme Court in a controversial decision. Granted cameras in the courtroom. So the Bundy trial became the first nationally televised trial, and for the first time ever Americans, you know, millions of Americans could sit in their living rooms and watch, you know, serial rape, and serial murder as live entertainment. And I think that, that was the precipitating event that has led to this obsession in documentary and televise kind of true crime and you can draw a line from there to the Bundy execution. A decade later was the first time the new technology of mobile satellite trucks, enabled all these trucks to camp outside the death house and cover his execution. And then just a few years later in ninety five with the with the OJ Simpson trial, that was now, you know, you had the twenty four hour news cycle kicking in proliferation of cable stations and the coverage of that. Trial became you know, the next big bang of, of our current obsession. Look, I believe, and I think it's important not to give the killer, you know, not to speak, his name, not to give them the attention. They deserve in these mass shootings. I think that's a very wise policy. I do think people confuse, you know, people have said, oh, well, we're giving Bundy everything he craved. He wanted the attention. And look at these documentaries, he's getting the attention. I think that's kind of a superficial view of things Bundy, didn't want the attention or crave the attention. He for years went undetected and wanted to kill with impunity without detection. But when he noticed that he was becoming a media star he used and exploited that to try to convince people he was innocent. It's not that he was doing these crimes for attention. He was doing it just for the opposite reason. But so I think I think you see, it's a it's, it's an apples. And oranges comparison. But with today's mass shootings, I think it's an extremely wise policy to not, you know, not to give any credence to who the killer is a lot of the chew crime. You're talking about the, the advent of the true crime phenomenon in how it is still very popular. We've seen various podcast and television series devoted to that. But in a lot of those in a lot of those films and podcasts it, there's a question about whether or not the person in question actually did it or there's a question about the police conduct in this case, Ted bundy's story is very different. We're pretty we're, we're more than certain that. He did do this, where more than certain that acting as his own attorney. He he tried to throw the Justice system asunder. So how is it different in approaching this kind of story, then in one where guilt, or innocence, for example, may not be clear, you, we'll look the whole? Guilt or innocence storytelling approach is something that obviously I'm very familiar with the paradise lost series. You know, I made a series of films about the west, Memphis three, the films are widely credited, along with the extreme activism of a lot of dedicated people, but the films were the catalyst for the that activism, and in the films have been credited with helping shine a light on these wrongful convictions. And that kind of storytelling is very important, but I think all advocacy filmmaking in this speier isn't just about wrongful convictions. It's about bringing certain social injustices, or social commentary to light and again, for me, the whole reason to do Bundy when my daughters told me they had no idea, who Bundy was. And I think about the era that we live in again with the internet, catfish ING with people posting idealized versions of, who they are on social media, and that reality may not always be the same that poor. A young woman who got into the wrong Uber. It wasn't an Uber was a fake Uber. And, and she was killed. You know we live we live in, in in, I think perilous times, where Ted Bundy could operate. And so my goal again, was to put put out into the world for a younger generation that just because somebody looks in access certain way, they don't deserve your trust where discussing the nation's fascination with chew crime and how those attitudes are changing three decades after Ted Bundy was executed. You can join the conversation, do you like true crime depictions, and why I'm Kimberly Atkins this is on point. Hey, it's been an Ameri, and we're the hosts of endless threat the show featuring stories found on the website, read it but you don't have to be a or to enjoy the kinds of stories. We tell like a couple experimenting with non monogamy or board game that may have predicted the attacks on Pearl Harbor. Subscribe to endless threat on apple podcasts or wherever you listen. I'm Gregory Warner and this week on rough translation. We follow a rescue mission in real time after an Iraqi photojournalist goes missing on the front lines. We don't believe I don't believe it leaves his family and his friends to try to save him. When he said, who is this? Who are you? They respond. We are the Slavic state this week on rough translation. This is on point. I'm Kimberly Atkins, we're talking with filmmaker Joe Berlinger about his to net flicks films about notorious serial killer Ted Bundy, you can join the conversation. How should we talk about the worst among us follow us on Twitter and find us on Facebook at on point radio? Now Joan I wanna play a clip from the documentary series conversations with a killer. The Ted Bundy tapes, Carol Durant was eighteen year old in November of nineteen seventy four. When Ted Punti poses a police officer outside of a mole in Utah, and convinced her to get in his car. A few minutes later Bundy tried to kill her the next thing I knew pulled out a gun said a blow your head off. I just thought go ahead. This go ahead. Do it just kill me now but I found the door jumped out the car. He came out after me. And we struggled outside. He had a crowbar that he was trying to hit me over the head. I had my hand on topic and fill it. I just thought with all my rash him and fight with being overall broken. I remember his beady blink lifeless eyes. And again, the casino from conversations with a killer, the Ted Bundy tapes, Joe, we have stories like this. We think about we maybe don't even know all of the women who had an encounter with Ted Bundy and survived and are living with this memory, just like the friend of the caller. We heard from earlier talk a little bit about that. You know, there, there have been have been some survivors, who we've interviewed who are in the show, and it is frightening the amount of people that he's encountered he's. Admitted to thirty the FBI puts the number at thirty five but I think experts believed the numbers much higher. So not only, you know, unfortunately, not only do I think there are other people out there who have had these encounters, but more importantly, I think unfortunately, there are victims out there who have not been accounted for who, who were actually killed by Bundy, Amy is on the line calling from woodberry for Mont. Hi, amy. Hi, thank you for taking my call. I wanted to say I, I appreciate what you did with paradise lost. And I think that Damien Echols is alive today, largely if not completely because of your exposure to their case, which is really profound. So thank you for that. I wanted to say that I I've really studied a lot. I think a lot of Americans have this facination with real killers. And after reading the only living witness by Ainsworth, you really get to see how truly depraved he was. I've loved both the documentary movie that you made. But I think that we're criticism, the least I have is four women or daughter's age. Komo's women and women younger, who may not know how truly horrible he was, for example, kidnapping and murdering beneath Maslin, and Janice in one day in broad daylight on a holiday. Out of very publicly is something that is just it's insane that he was able to do that. And what he did to these women is truly so horrible. And I think that his depravity is lost in the film. Thank you for taking my call. Thank you for the whole show. What would you think about that? Well, you know, look, everyone's entitled to their opinion, of course. And, and if the move in, and of course, I shouldn't expect people to watch both each each film project should exist on its own. I shouldn't expect people to watch the documentary to fill in the blanks of what was left out of the movie. But, again, the movie is there to portray the three dimensionality of these psychopaths, not because we want to humanize them. But because we want to show that they are actually three dimensional human beings who spend a good deal of their life, not killing but deceiving. And that mecca. Of deception and so to load the movie up with, you know, re-creations of killings, which, again, I think is disrespectful to the victim. It, it undercuts, it would undercut the power that the movie has at the end of the film. Look, every film doesn't work for everybody, but for whom the film work's when Bundy finally admits to his longtime lover that. Yes, I did do all these terrible things, and we see glimpses of it in that final moment in that final flashback. It's an emotionally, gut wrenching experience for Liz herself. And that's the experience, I want to give the audience, I want the audience to actually as the movies unfolding to have that sense of inner conflict. You know, I, I actually want people to suspend the intellectual knowledge that they're watching a movie about a serial killer, and invest in that relationship and to understand how because we don't want to think that Liz is just missed the clues and somehow that she's deficient in some way, you know, she she, she missed the clue. Because Bundy was a master manipulator, and we want, I want the audience to experience that manipulation themselves. You're the. You're the guarantees updating my next question, because I wanted, you we were talking about this three dimensionality the, the approach of following this through the eyes of Liz, I'm thinking of a scene, where a right after they first met, and she wakes up and realizes that he is not there and she doesn't see her daughter right away. And she gets up in a panic to see what happened. This man is gone her daughter's gone, and she finds them in the kitchen her in her high chair him in an apron, cooking breakfast. And I just thought that was a scene that sort of captured what you were trying to get across some even when she had her Spidey senses as a mother, he managed to, to completely disarm, her, right? And, and part of that is to is to let the audience know that this is not going to be that kind of movie to play with audience expectations to allow the audience to engage in that relationship. So that when the betrayal happens at the end of the movie. That the audience themselves feel that same level of disgust. You know, again, this is mainly targeted to a younger audience. That doesn't have the details of his crimes and reveres both zaken lily. They both have huge fan bases. And I literally, you know, to me, the best reaction to the movies for somebody at the end of the film to say, oh, my God when he was jumping out the window and escaping prison. I was actually rooting for him to, to, you know, to get back to Liz, and so that the love can relationship can continue and. Oh my God. I can't believe I actually fell for it, and I'm so disgusted that I fell for it because I feel along with Liz, that this character has manipulated and betrayed me because that's the nature of evil again. Evil is done by the people often done by the people closest to you, and who you least expect and so that is what I'm trying to portray in the movie, the nature of deception and betrayal. Frank is on the line from. Baltimore, maryland. Hi, frank. Thanks for taking my call. I was a journalist working for broadcast group, serving ten TV stations across the country and covered the execution of Ted Bundy, and, like always saying this was big bang for satellite news coverage. The press was on a field across the street from the depth house prison. Spokesman would come out periodically and give us briefings. I have brought tape one of our stations was in Denver and other employed, where Bundy had committed crimes, and, and the essence of the back story that I was telling leading up to the execution was of his deception. It was kind of a warning, you know to, to all to, you know, this is what can happen while the morning of the execution. I was on the ground in Florida for twenty nine hours. I did twenty seven live shots and the morning of the execution was a carnival atmosphere. There are hundreds of spectators, many of them were college students guys and young women. Full. Hair makeup and dress like the reclogging to come out who is almost like a pep rally, volunteer. I mean, the local fire department auxiliary was here, selling coffee and donuts. And there was a plant that truck there that oppose the death penalty, you know, just on principle when the execution announcement came, there was a loud cheer, and which really upset me. I thought you know, people were missing the point. But when I did my life shots. It was very interesting to note that the different reaction from the different markets. Oklahoma City, Princeton. So when I was done talking all I heard from the anchors was, thanks spring. But when I went to Washington DC, and Atlanta and Phoenix. There were three four five anchor follow up, questions, just kind of couldn't get enough wanted more detail and everything, and it really showed you, you know, the scope, the spectrum of, of reaction. Across america. So I just wanted to share that. Thank you for that. Thank you for that, Frank, one of the things that Frank brought up Joe is the fact that in the spectacle surrounding this story, a lot of times women dressed up coming to this wanting to be a part of it in your film in your documentary. Some women are questioned who even those who believe he was a killer, who believe he committed these crimes still talked about how they were drawn to him fascinated by him. And I wondered is there a sense that some, some of those things stay the same? I'm recalling the, the documentary about our Kelly, for example, where he actually picked up girls while he was on trial, and despite horrible horrible charges being made against people if they're seen as good looking and charming enough. Women are still trying to them. Talk a little bit about that. Yeah. I mean you know it's hard to put everything in one in one category. I certainly don't want to right off. You know, bundy's a lure as just women wanting to, you know, be involved with dangerous person. I think that's an over simplification and the thing to me, that's the most remarkable is that people were coming to the Florida trial, not necessarily because they were so titillated by Bundy and thought he was guilty. But he had this power. He was using the, the media to make people feel like he was he was innocent. And, you know, to me, one of the extrordinary things about this case, and, which we are definitely making a comment on is that he was given a free pass to allow that perception to be built he was allowed to represent himself at trial. He was given even though he was. You know, he didn't have a law degree was a law student, and all of a sudden he's representing himself at trial, and you know, turn. And that legal, you know, again all due respect to all the officials who you know, the prosecutor Larry Simpson. Everyone did a great job. But the fact that Bundy was allowed to represent himself at trial to me is very, very disturbing. Because if that was a person of color, who had been accused of these crimes he would be in an orange jumpsuit wrapped in chains the entire time. And the judge is almost apologetic at the end of the movie, one of the reasons we call it extremely wicked. Shockingly, evil vile is these are the words that the judge articulates to him as to why he's giving him the death sentence because his acts were extremely wicked. Shockingly evil and vile, but he also takes as we see both in the movie and the dock and in the movie, the judge is judge coward is played by John Malkovich. We hear the judge quite a almost apologizing for sentencing, the guy that the guy to death saying, you know, hey, you would have been a good lawyer. I wish you wish you could have, you know. Practice in front of me. But you went different way partner. And you know, you know, I have no animosity towards you could you imagine if that was a person of color, a judge would be, you know, anything other than, you know almost apologetic. And when I try to get one more caller in a couple of minutes, we have left be is on the line from Clearwater, Florida hobby. Hi. So I wanted to talk about how you it was previously mentioned that the film docu series was made because your daughter's didn't know who had Bundy was I had a similar experience. You know, Ted Bundy was put to death in January of nineteen eighty nine I was born in may of nine hundred eighty nine so it wasn't super familiar. But, you know, I live my life as being a decent person. I'd try to be a force for good. And I realized when I was watching the docu series I had a guttural reaction of like I would have been victim. I would have one hundred percent victim. If someone anyone comes up to me, and ask, hey, can I get some help, especially somebody with their arm in a sling Yang? I'm going to go help them and watching the docu series really has made me rethink about how I hold myself in life, and who I'm willing to help in wear willing to help. And I feel like that is so so important. And I really wish that more people would. Have that same reaction because there's a lot of out your who want to be forced for good and help where we can. And sometimes it's just straight up not safe to do. So. Thank you for that. Call be Joe. What do you think? We'll look I really appreciate the honesty of that answer. And of course, that's the type of response. I was hoping to get from people again for my daughter's generation, and it's a hard message. You know, look when I was a twenty something year old backpacking through Europe. Some of my greatest experiences were just encountering strangers and having those wonderful magic moments that you have just when you're, you're young and living your life and, you know, you want to trust people. And so, you know what I'm saying is like you can't not have those experiences. Of course, I don't want people so shutdown that they don't trust anybody. But deepen your gut there's a there's a there's a radar that people really need to listen to and, and they should take extra precaution. You know, I don't. Wanna tell my daughters, don't trust anybody don't go out and have any kind of experiences in life. But just like this caller, you know, you have to be careful and understand who you're trusting, and sometimes it's hard to understand or it's impossible to know who you're trusting and so you air on the side of caution. I mean, that's really that's, that's the main reason to retail his story. And that was my goal. So, you know, I, I do appreciate what, what she had to say. And you mentioned that both of these films may not be for the same audiences, people may not watch both in just the piece seconds. We have left, who is the audience for each of them. Well, I think it's a good question. I mean, I think anyone who's interested in learning about these stories. I mean, I think both projects are two hat to different halves of the same coin. One is a deep dive into the mind of a killer and a very comprehensive dissection of, of who he was what he did. And why, and that's for those who want that kind of experience and the movie extremely wicked shockingly evil in vile is much more of a psychological portrait of, of deception and betrayal. And I think those lessons can be applied beyond serial killing. There is a lot of people who do evil in the world who pretend to be one thing, and really are, are, are quite another doesn't have to just be serial killing. So I think that's a in fact, targeted to a wider audience chill Berlinger, who's two movies extremely wicked. Shockingly evil and vile and conversations with a killer. The Ted Bundy tapes are on net flicks now. Thank you for joining us. Thanks kimberly. An IM Kimberly Atkins, you can join the conversation on, on point on our on Twitter or on Facebook at on radio. I'm can really Atkins. 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