D.E.B.S. with Ellie Brigida and Leigh Holmes Foster


The most serial killers don't make any effort to involve media or best Gators. They're very secretive. They don't want attention. They almost want their crimes to go unnoticed, but the idea of committing a crime, and then calling up the police and bragging about it. That's a whole 'nother level of terror. A man who wore a mediaeval style executioner's hood who has baffled the police and baffled the media. He seems to crave publicity. He sent letters and Ramsden newspapers and beliefs subject stated I want to report a murder. No, a double murder. I did it. Here. We are fifty years to the first sodium killing in today's world of forensics old cases are being solved who doesn't wanna know. How it turns out? From the creators of Atlanta monster come season to this is monster vizo yet killer. Listen as subscribe at apple podcasts or on the iheartradio app. On the cast questions. Asked movies have women and are all their discussions boyfriends and husbands do they have individualism the patriarchy's FM vast start changing with the Becca del cash. Hi, welcome to the Bechtel cast. My name is Caitlin. Toronto Jamie Loftus, and what do we do here, Jamie? Sorry. No, it's fine. It's a test. Well, this is our desert podcast about the representation of women in movies using the Bechtel test as a jumping off point for discussion to how did I do though? So wonderful. Thank you so much and the Bechtel test. If you're not familiar if perhaps you're tuning in for the very first time is a media test. And I actually I wanted to go into a little bit more detail than we normally do because I think this is like the perfect episode and the perfect movie to provide just a little more context and talk a little bit more about the origins of the Bechtel tests than we normally do you're being a real lead, Deb right now, I I am this wad leader squad, captain or we're gonna get into fight. But by the end, we will make up, and yes, I'm Ron John of us will be in love and the other one will be in charge. So you'll be in love and all be in charge. Okay. That's because that's how are normal lives are right now. Okay. Anyway. So Alison Bechtel queer icon. She inadvertently created the Bechtel test in her book dykes to watch out for published in nineteen eighty five. I feel like some people think that she like deliberately set out to create this specific media tests. But it was more as it was. Yeah. It appeared in the book. And then that was later co opted into the test that we now use and that is widely used to apply to you know, media and movies and things like that Alison Bechtel credits, the idea to her friend, Liz Wallace and to the writings of Virginia Woolf, specifically woolf's essay a room of one's own which is a feminist text. The Bechtel test is sometimes referred to as the Bechtel Wallace test, which Allison Bechtel is said to prefer, but we are jerk. So we only call it the Bechtol test. I love. And friends credit friends. Yeah, it's critical. It's it's great. And then in the comic ducks to watch out for it has to lesbian characters and the context of their conversation is that there is so little queer women representation in movies that the only way for them to imagine that a female character in a movie might be a lesbian is if she is seen talking to another woman, and they are not talking about men. So that is the origin of the Bechtel test. And I just wanted to share that to our listener unless sure the original comic on our on our Twitter. I know it's readily available so we can do that as well and deed history corner. Yeah. A new segment on every episode know, how many he's got no. Shall we? Introduce our guests. Let's do it. I'm so excited. We've got today. A very exciting time. They are the hosts of the Liz hang out podcast. It's Lee homes foster and L E brigada. Did I say that right, Johnny? It's Brigitta Brigitta. But I think you should change. Honestly, I love it for Java. It sounds a little bit more like the things that I love sounds like sounds like a beverage or bread. So sorry for fucking up your name. Welcome. It's all good. They literally messed up my name at my graduation. And I waited for them. I was like you're gonna get it. Right. So they said it like seven times walked. Incredible flex. So tell us le- let's start with you. What is your history your relationship with the move? Oh, by the way, today's movie is Deb's. Yes. Deb's is a cult classic. Yes. Two thousand technically two thousand and four but release widely in two thousand five rom com, technically, although it feels like a Dekom to me in a lot of ways of getting a lot of Dekom vibe show. Yes. So many screens. Yes. Even screens in like goofy. Like, boiling kind of music, very Dekom. Great. I loved it. And what is your experience -ly? Okay. So my experience so because I'm going to say, yeah, I feel like I I saw Deb's in college which would make sense that was like right after it came out. And I would say my experience with Deb's is that for a really really long time when we would try to talk to like friends or or people about like queer movies. We would say for a long time. There's like one like good queer movie. That's like a real movie, which is imagine me, and you and then there's like two amazing like campy movies, and those are Deb's, and but I'm a cheerleader. And so for a long time Debs was like that Goto of like, it's so terrible. An amazing just all at the same time. And there just wasn't a lot else out there. So so you'd kind of just watch those we talked about this on our, but I'm a cheerleader episode where Chile king our guest was like there. Are only two fun lesbian movies and one of them is, but I'm a cheerleader and the other one is Deb's been like a request for a long time. Yes, it's such a classic. It's such. It's such a horribly amazing movie. The first time that I ever saw. It actually was when I watched it with Lee when he was on our podcast. Yeah. Called less. I had never seen it. Yeah. It was the first time that I had seen it. And I don't know why I hadn't seen it before. But I'm also a bit younger than Li. So I was I was definitely not a lesbian or I was a lesbian. But I wasn't out when Depp's came out. So I saw it for the first time then and have since watched it probably five or six times. Yeah. Because everything else is so depressing. Like if you want to watch something the and lesbian like, that's it. Jimmy, what's your relationship? Like most movies. I'd never seen it before. Until today. I watched and I watched it twice in a row. And it's like it's so up my alley in so many ways, but it's just like, the low budge vibes. You get from it. The multitude of like the character actors are out in this movie, some wild character, actor choices that outfits are weird. I just it's it's everything. It looks like a cost seven dollars to make an I loved her Donna Brewster, and it was just great in this. She's so good. And it's weird because I don't I haven't seen. I mean, I guess I'm mostly judging her catalog from seeing on her on my mom's soaps when I was really young because she started as a soap star and singer in the fast and the furious movies. But this is the most personality I've seen her ever display ever. It was just like a really like this, man. Yeah. What about you? Can I had not seen it either? I knew of it just because it had been request is common requests yet for us to do on the podcast. And that was the first time I learned about it. I think it's just I remember someone in like a college film class. I took presented on it. And being like college myself like, oh, you almost that. And then not watch them. Oh, work it somehow flew under my radar, which is unfortunate that this like fun queer movie was not even in my like wheelhouse. Or I just I wasn't aware of it. Because I feel like I have a pretty good handle on most movies. Even if I haven't seen them, I've heard of them or I know about them school twice. Thank you so much for bringing it up because you know, I don't like to mention that. I do have a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University. But yeah, it just did you go to be you. I went there between twenty twelve in two thousand fourteen we were probably the at the same time. Yeah. That's cool Austin? Yeah. Thr- I did my PHD. So. Oh, okay. Sorry. Iran to upstage. On my own. I'm sorry. I is much more impressive degree there. At the same time, though. My blood pressure. What did you study chemistry? Oh, I women. That's that's why it's like not impressive at all. And no one wants to hear about it. You know your. I'm not impressed by your PHD in chemistry at all. I think we also overlapped with the Cossio Cortez though. Didn't we oh, she was I think she graduated in twenty eleven I think that sounds right? Yeah. So I missed her she and I overlapped so once again. Okay. This is a this little spicy cast. Sorry. I'm never invited back to anything. No, you the PHD in chemistry. You can do whatever. The fuck. You aunt. Yeah. And I didn't earn day. I didn't mean for my reaction to be like, oh, it was more. Like, oh, I wasn't expecting that. I am actually very impressed. And you're a woman in stem. So that's great. Let me tell you the most common response that I think I've gotten when I the I tell people that I have a PHD in chemistry. I think the most common responses what else do you do? Really? So I'm not offended by any of these people to that. That's fine. I wanna fight these people. Lee has bought them. Go. I just told them about my awesome, lesbian podcast. That's all. I have two very niche things. It's cool. Oh, also, really, I also got some just taking the temp from the rim. I was also getting some Josie in the pussycat vibes from this movie visually like if Josie and the pussycats had like a fourth of the budget. Kind of like that. That's my statement. And a of the star power. They're like we have Holland Taylor. But we only have her for three hours. So. And she'll only film in one room, and it's green screen at every time fifty percent of this movie takes place in the same room. And I love it. Okay. So should I do the recap of the movie Deb's? Yes, please. Okay. We start with some wild voiceover. That says that there is a secret test hidden within the SAT that measures a student's innate ability to lie cheat fight and kill and those who score well on this test are recruited into a secret paramilitary academy, and they call themselves Deb's, though, ABS the first I thirty seconds of this movie. I was like what? It's like watching it three times to just be like, I get the feeling. They're not gonna explain this again. They never do. Do we ever find out what Deb's stands for? Yes. We do isn't game. Yeah. Yeah. Stanford. It stands for discipline, energy and beauty. Oh, but it's also like debutantes because endgame is like, prom, basically. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, she does. I forget doesn't like hall in Taylor indirectly define it like ten minutes before the movies over. Yes. A when she's reprimanding Amy a choice was made being a big old lesbian. You're one to talk Colin Taylor one to talk. I know there. This was like pre Holland Taylor didn't come out until a few years ago. Right. Yes. She when the movie was made choose leisure. She was leaving breadcrumbs for all of us. Yeah. Okay. So that's some of the background on dubs. Then we meet several of the Deb's as they're on their way to Deb's academy almost like Santa university like Santa university in Santa Barbara. For sure for sure we meet Dominique she is French. She's always smoking a cigarette. Very sex positive. Yes. She's gone. Many different dudes in her bed over the course of the movie. We meet Janet. She's a little absent minded, she's a little flighty. We meet max, she is the squad captain, and then we meet Amy she is the top student at dubs academy. She's a great spy, and she is in the middle of breaking up with her boyfriend. Bobby Lovie, Bobby? He's a. They did not do. They're like, no, no nothing. That's like cabal for Bobby. Geoff Stults would have been like hot off of his seventh heaven run at this point. Right true. Oh, I had I forgot that that was where I recognized him from there are so many people in this movie. Were you were like, Ooh, I know that you're from somewhere. I feel like he wasn't much more likable in seventh heaven to me. I mean, he's pretty horrible in this movie though. Yeah, he's the worst. I mean down to the pooper shells. God always bragging about his dad. Shows that belong to his father. Right. What is that? Like, you're my dad's shells. Please sort of this therapy. Keep your shells out of this for for them. He carries around a collection of his father's bracelets. Some unknown. And it's always like urgent for him to put the bracelet on her in mid air. It's like no you gotta put on my dad's bracelet now. Love it. Okay. So the four of these Deb's meet up with Phipps who was played by Michael Clark Dunkin and MS Petri who is Holland Taylor and queer icon, and they're like, hey, Lucy diamond is back in the states, and Lucy diamond might be a reference to something nothing that I've ever heard don't really general name so weird that those two were to be associated. I don't know. I feel like it's completely original and not an allusion to anything sick. Just checking. Okay. So she Lucy diamond is a smuggler. She's the leader of a crime syndicate. She started Brewster she's ridiculously high. She's very hot very, Amy. Definitely recognizes. Yeah. Oh, I just didn't expect her to be so real. Good. She straight out of like, many shampoo hair commercials. Even though no one's ever survived an encounter with her. Right. Yeah. And she is planning to meet up with an x KGB turned assassin named Nicole a notch. I like the Koch go a lot more simply cannot pronounce names. Yeah. Nkhatazo for Johnny dean. And so it was like, hey Deb's do surveillance on Lucy. But here's the thing. It's very dangerous because Lucy has never fought anyone who has lived to tell about it Amy is especially excited because she's writing her thesis on Lucy diamond. Of course, she is. And are they supposed to be the same age? That was quite I was like are you was she reading her thesis on some someone her age or is she supposed to be a little bit older? It's really unclear in the same way that it's unclear like, it seems like they're supposed to be in college through this. But they treat them like high-schoolers the whole time and they're dressed area typical private school high school students. Well, I don't know typical. I think they would definitely be sent to the principal's office. Yeah. They're dressed like a Halloween costume. Oh, yeah. We'll we'll talk about that. But yeah, I think they're meant to be like seniors in college, basically because they say they're in their fourth year of dubs academy. So Lucy's just like a renegade dropout who blazed her own trail, and thus is SAP material, drew. Yeah. Hard to say, how old Luci is meant to be. I got the impression that she was maybe a few years older than the Deb's. But again, how she's I mean? Right. Here's what we know. She's hot. She's a friend named Scud. Yes. I don't have any more questions. And we meet the two of them. And we find out that Lucy is planning to meet up with this new Nacho woman because they are going on a blind date, and we're like, whoa, Lucie is equipped icon as it turns out Scud is really wanting Lucy's to be in love such a good wing. Man Scud is like it's practically his job like we don't really see him do much else. Other than view like you gotta be in love Lucy move on. You got this like Dem's good? You really rooting for her Scott is like a walking Lesbos slash motivational poster in human form. Have to be open to love. So supportive. It's great peaks. Good. So the Deb's go to the restaurant for this stakeout and Lucy shows up, and she's there with her date, and it's not going very well, very tall restaurant. The ceilings are like eighty feet high. And no one ever looks up. No lucy. It actually is a pool if anyone noticed I noticed this. Really? Yeah. It's it's definitely an empty pool that they turned into a restaurant because on the wall it says like something about swimming. And if you look on the sides, there are little things that say the height of it, which is six feet. So it's not that tall. Fun fact, excellent budget. They had their great great great. So Lucy does spot the Deb's who are just like hanging out in the rafters? And so this leads to a big shootout. Oh, wait. It's not that she spots them. It's that Bobby driving. His shaggy dog done bracelets as you so want to do when you're hanging in little swings from a restaurants thirty foot ceiling on an espionage stint. They're all in like circus swings. Yes. Part of the plan. And then like every single one of bobby's dad's bracelets is a Chekhov's gun the second. It comes out. Gonna happen. I would also like to believe that there's an entire semester's class of dubs academy that is solely devoted to balancing. On those swing seats the circus because they like move they can like shift them back and forth, and they term at all. No, and the swing don't swing that much. They seem pretty stationer. I'm interested in this technology same. So there's this big shootout and Lucy and Amy find themselves face to face. But instead of killing each other they sort of vibe love that scene. Yes. It's great. And then Lucy gets away, and she goes to Scud, and she's like, hey, I met someone her name is Amy Bradshaw. And Scott is like you can't like her. She's a Deb. She's and she's like, not a, Deb. She's like the Neo Deb sees the perfect score. Which again, we have some very subtle coded language in here. And then Lucie sneaks into Amy's room. And she's like go out with me. If you do I'll tell you what you want to know for your thesis, Janet crosses their paths, one of the other Deb's, and so she instead get dragged along to this like nightclub that they end up going to and Amy Lucy start to get to know each other. And then they almost kiss and also Scott in janitor five air coming. We'll table there's a lot. There's a lot going on. There's a pool table. There's a bunch of people that are like straight out of your, you know, mid two thousands mall. Hot topic. Many mohawks. A lot of like giant metal ball. Necklaces. There actually is the guy with the potatoes. Sent you. I've seen this so many times at the last time. I watched it I paused it at a certain point because I was like is that a potato sack, and it was just letting, you know, look for that a lot of Easter eggs because I will watch this movie again, I think it's so much fun last. So she and Lucy almost kiss, but Amy is confused about her sexuality. So she gets up and leaves abruptly and now we're back at Deb's academy. And MS Petri is all like, hey, Amy lead this investigation to find Lucy and she also gets promoted to squad captain because she survived the Lucian count. Yes. Everyone's like, wow. What a hero. And then max is all upset 'cause she's like, wait a minute. I'm squad captain, this means there some tension between Amy max. And as they stated whilst on the swings. Their best friends and also maxed. It's something that I'm like, okay. This isn't what a great friend would say. But it did make me laugh of. When she was just like promise, you'll never go to art school. And like I wish I had a friend who had said that to me right because Amy doesn't have that much interest in being like a spy she wants to go to art school in Barcelona. Exactly. Yeah. Which is just like I feel like the default for any like broody girl in the ninety thousand movie. Yes. Want to be an artist or or a lesbian? I mean, just any either. Right. I should have been a hint reap signs. Amy read the signs. So then Lucy, robs a Bank just so that the Deb's will like go and try to stop her because she's trying to lure Amy there. So she can get closer to her an Amy's like uh sorry. But I'm not romantically interested in you Lucy. But then also, but in that scene Lucy. Also almost kills the Deb's has like it's a booby trap. I'm like excuse me. You almost killed the Deb. She's like what a good prank about this later. I I don't know if I want to be in a relationship with this woman. Now, I mean, we'll talk about the nature of their like the whole there's some strange twists. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the kiss Lucy, and Amy kiss and Amy's all like, she changes her mind, she goes with Lucy, the Deb's all think that she's been kidnapped. But it's really just them hanging out spending time together and having a great time. Which is a great montage. Also, they do appear to be in plain sight almost all the time, right? Also, the montages confusing time wise because it to me this montage appears to take place over the course of like, many moons. Yeah. Along mention later that she's only kidnapped for a week seven days. So they really they just kind of made it seem a little bit more than it was maybe they they move really fast. I guess I mean, lesbians, let's let's not talk about lesbian stereotypes quite yet. But also they're in their college age. I feel like in college a million times. I would I would tell anyone I loved them after we can't love me. Sure. Could be true. So then MS Petri orders a search for Amy and the dubs find her while she and Lucy are naked in kissing and so in an effort to cover up what would be a scandal for dubs academies since like Amy was consorting with the enemy. They plan to instead they're going to name her Deb of the year at the big endgame event. And it's Max's idea as Max's idea, and she's very smart, and she's going to give a speech to accept this award. So to speak and her ex boyfriend Bobby is going to be there with her to make it look like they're together. Nobody has ever been more excited to take out a girl who has no interest in them than body is to take her to end. When they're dancing on the dance floor. She's literally like standing still, and he's like busting all these moves. He doesn't look at her at all Bobby is such a cho-. It's. I was pissed when max called Bobby when they had a lead on where Amy was I was like man max, that's not what friend does don't call the ex boyfriend who's who wears pooper shells. Call him never ever call hookah shell guy ever. So we're almost at the end of the movie everyone is mad at Amy for her whole like consorting with the enemy thing. And she's forced to suppress her feelings for Lucy, and she'd say that she's not in love with her even though we know that she is because she wait sorry super quickly. We missed a really important part of the movie. Oh, what the montage where Lucy diamond decides to reform her ways? Oh god. Yes. Because in order to be in love, you do need to change everything about yourself. Right. So Lizzie like, I'll do whatever it takes to win Amy back. And so she starts to return all the money that she stole from people. The help and support of skied has got his they're they're singing karaoke together in what appears to be her bedroom. Like, they're just. Bedroom pan out and there's four other people there. Yeah. So, you know, like every crime up ration- has their backup dancers. Okay. True, especially during a reform montage. That she has a little Batman signal that diamond that turns into Amy be mine. That's great. So now, we're at endgame, which was essentially at this ball, prom kind of thing and Amy is giving her speech and Lucy shows up to be like, hey, I actually love you, and we should be together, which was sort of Scuds idea. And then Amy is like, hey, here's my speech. It's such an honor to be a dead, and blah, blah, blah. And then she's like, but just kidding, man. She's yeah. She literally gives the whole speech, and then she's like, comma J K, and that is why I actually need to tell you that. I love Lucy diamond. Also, wait, can we just come it real quick on the speech accepting the Deb's highest award? Jane? Oh, I was that we didn't get it. It's just there throwing them left. Wow. Damn feeling gets taken many viewings of this movie to just really pick out all of the super subtle hints. And, you know, just hidden language in there. There's a lot of first of all really funny jokes. And I feel like a lot of them are fairly subtle. Like there was stuff. I was picking up on didn't pick up on until my like second viewing. And I feel like there's still a lot of stuff that I missed so. Yeah, I'm excited to go back and rewatch it so Amy's like she professes her love for Lucy Lucy. Is there? There's this big fight that unfolds, and then Lucy and Amy are running around the cross paths again at the same place that they did the first time they meet and they're like, oh my God. Let's be together and all the Deb shop, and they're like, wait. That's the way. Does that mean that endgame took place in the pool restaurant? Oh, I guess says only. Station scenes, they did have one building for ten days, but that hoax in. It's like a warehouse that they're running around in. So maybe the basement warehouse under the pool restaurant, which is also in Deb's academy deficit kademi the exterior may have been mostly a green screen. I'm not totally. I don't I guess they sort they could have been in the pool restaurant. So then Amy lose your like. Yeah. Let's be together. And the dubs are like, okay, we accept you. And that is pretty much the end of the movie they ride off into the sunset. They got in Janet get together to. Yes. Yes. That's true. Endings all round. Indeed. Then she has to be like, this is my boyfriend's Scud. Just too bad. So that's the story. We're going to take a quick break. And then we'll come right back. Hey, it's Caitlyn and Jamie Bechtel cab. Where's your to talk to you about third? Love once again. Yes, we are. I love my bra so much that I needed to talk more about it. Okay. Well, I have a bra anecdote, please tell me. Okay. So I went to a function the other night as wearing my third love brought because I needed everything in place shows wearing a tube top brag. And I went to the event and who is there. But Alfred Molina I was too afraid to talk to him. However, I was wearing my third love bra. And I think that those two things have to be, you know, you're just putting out good energy into the world. When you're wearing these bras. That's right. I can't think of a stronger endorsement than that the there. It's your good luck bra. It's my good luck bra my bra has maybe not allowed me to meet any celebrities who I love, but I have been wearing it very regularly. And you know, wash it a couple times. Brag and it still feels really great it still fits really well. And one of the things I love most about the experience was the convenience of not having to leave my house to go shopping. I love not leaving my house. It's the best. There is love hooks it up. So if you haven't heard of third love, it's an incredible brand underwear company that has one hundred percent fit guarantee every customer has sixty days to where it wash it put to the test like Caitlin was just talking about. And if you don't love it just return it and then third level wash it and donate it to a woman in need. Which is incredible. It's a great company. Oh, wow. This amazing so third love knows that there's a perfect bra for everyone. So right now, they're offering our listeners fifteen percent off of your first order. Yes. So go to third love dot com slash TB. See for the Bechtel cast y'all go there now to find your perfect fitting bra and you'll get fifteen percent off your first purchase. That's third. Love dot com slash TB. See for. Fifteen percent off today, and we're back. I lo-. Oh, there's so much to talk about lots to talk about. So to start us off Lee, and Elliot we just wanted to get your take on just kind of the overall representation as as we already kind of talked about this is one of very few like fun queer women movies that exist at all. Still to this day. So we just want to kinda get your initial thoughts on like the representation of queer women in this movie and just sort of your initial take on on that there's a lot there's a lot to be so much. I mean one thing we will say is. I wish it wasn't so accurate to be like, oh, here's one lesbian. She's a crime Lord. And here's the other lesbian. She is an over achieving student, and they're gonna like move in and fall in love in approximately three hours. Well, we have you hauling which like we like to say is a lesbian trope that honestly is true. Like, you know, when you're like, that's a stereotype. But then you look around at all your friends, and they're all live together. And they've been together for like, six months. So describe for us what you hauling means. Okay. So you hauling is a lesbian term where basically there's a joke. What is a lesbian bring on a first date a U haul basically that who've? Who've who've in together very quickly. He would never heard that term before. That's funny. Oh, really, I thought everyone knew just live in a lesbian world. So yes. So it's just it's a stereotype that lesbians move very quickly fall in love very fast and go through like every stage of the relationship very quickly. So seven days, isn't really that unrealistic. I know I wish it was less accurate. But that's pretty accurate. I do want to talk a little bit about one of the things that I think is problematic about Lucy diamond. Yes. Even though I love her and she's so beautiful. She is the predatory lesbian stereotype. Yes. Like, which what I mean by that. Is you have in lesbian movies, usually one person who is already out and a lesbian or bisexual? However, they identified but they're already out. And then you usually have someone who's in the closet, and you have this person who's already out pursuing them, very aggressive. And then kind of like trying to coax them out. Acquired to try and turn them in a way, which is very problematic. So Lucy diamond at one point says she's into me, but she just doesn't know it yet. Right. And then continues for the entire movie to basically hold Amy hostage in order to get her to fall in love with her, right? Yes. Right. I found this to be very similar to another problematic. Trump that we come up upon in hetero. Romance movies, just semi predatory romance and Jenner right, basically, framing stocking as romantic where she does so many different things where she shows up in Amy's room various time invited she threatens her with a weapon to get Amy to go out with her she robs a Bank, and then almost kills her friends to again, try to get closer to her. I still can't get over the hump booby-trapped excuse. I'm like who? Are you kidding? And Amy also is like it's very sweet that you did that right? Is it? Yes. Like, I don't know if that's the right term. I feel like they're all things were if any part of this movie was even a little bit serious. It would immediately fall apart. Yeah. For sure because this is a very silly campy NV. Oh, yeah. But yeah, that was one of the biggest things I noticed as well where Lucy she is basically stocking Amy, but it's framed as romantic, and this method of seduction yields successful results because they end up together and not for nothing. I found it interesting where I totally agree that there are like elements of predatory romance between Lucian Amy, but Bobby kind of does the same thing to Amy at the beginning of the movie where she can't get away from him. And he is like why did you break up with me? Why did you break up with the news like popping up on her to her devices, then he slides in on his freaky? Swing. Why did you break up with me here where my dad's bracelet, and like it it seems like a pattern in Amy's romantic life? Yeah. But the story doesn't really address that. When when Bobby is doing it. It's framed as she feels as though she's being pestered and anoint yet. Ballot. You've done when Lucy does it. It's like, oh, wow. Look how much she likes Amy and look at all the effort she's going through to try to get with her keeps almost killing other people. Don't safely shouldn't be with them. In fact, Lucy even says at one point two, Amy, she's like, you say, I can't see you. I see you. Anyway, it's this little game we play, and it's supposed to be this like, you know, cute moment. But it's like, no, you're. Right. It's like is it a game? Or do you have a tracker that somehow can identify everyone in the world is either not Amy or Amy and she does have that. Yes. And then when the when the writing also indicates that like being stocked is secretly what Amy really wanted anyways. And Amy really did want Lucy coming after her because this is what she like it just it. It's just not a good message for for young impressionable. We'll no not really even even if that predatory lesbian returns giant cartoon sacks of money with dollar signs on the. Just not enough. Well, that was another. I'm I mean that was another thing that sort of bugged me about their relationship. And I guess I mean, it is such a campy movie that it it's not like I feel like no I wish he was a mean Bank robber forever. But that felt like another well-worn trope of like one person needs to change everything about themselves for this relationship to work like you have to we're there's literally that scene with Scud. I just can't say it enough. We're like Lucy's like man, I really love Amiens Scuds like so do you want to give up everything you've worked for and Lucy's like? Yup. Hugh, the montage well, and it's funny because there's this huge running theme in the movie about like finding yourself, right? And they have that whole conversation when she's kidnapped being like, you know, you should be doing what you love and Lucy's like I am doing what I love. But then she tosses that out the window. You know, maybe she could be a pirate though, Li on this JV was so weird to he's like Lucy pirates are criminals, and he's like what? Oh, everything I wanna be falls under the criminal category. Yeah. So now what she going to do after she's returned all this money. Like can she even afford to live? Now seems like she probably can't afford rent on her a big people cannot live on a art grad student salary. Save Lucy's go to go to grad school there pucks. I do not assume that she did very well on her SAT's because she definitely that dude. There. Oh god. Yeah. There's I mean who knows there's a lot of parts of that relationship that just don't work in terms of setting an example. But there are other scenes between the two of them that I really liked. I really liked that scene where they were talking about, you know, Amy is going with the path that she was put on without questioning it and then Lucy's challenging that. And she's like, yeah, I do bad stuff. But it's like that was choice. I made and I stood by which makes it weird or that. She dials back on it later. Right. I liked that same between them a lot. Like, they do seem to challenge each other. And a lot of ways and don't hold back, which is nice because Amy doesn't do that with her friends as much right? Yeah. You do I feel like in so many mainstream movies, which of course, are mostly hetero. You see the romantic relationship, if there is one in the movie, you rarely get a sense of like why the two characters like each other or what they? Necked about or what they even talk about. But I feel like in this movie, you get a more of a sense of why they connect and. Yeah, it is. I mean for the first chunk of it Lucie is using some very questionable tactics. And not even just the Stocker stuff. It's like she's also kind of like nagging her and or like being condescending to her like in the scene when they're in the nightclub. She's just kind of like being mean to her in a weird way. Well, that's that's flirting. Right. Yeah. That is flirting. You're right. Yeah. Yeah. The timeless tactic that works on us. All. The the thing that comes out in the seem in in the club that may be laugh. The most was like you can tell that. Maybe at some point. Angela Robinson gets the story. No that like we should make it like don't make Lucy too bad because in that like Amy's like, we'll haven't you killed a lot of people at least he's like, no they died of various diseases and or froze too. So. I'm actually a viable love interest. And name is not a murderer. I'm just robber. That may be. I don't know. I I thought that that was like very fun campy on purpose bad writing. And I enjoyed it. I hope it was on purpose. Because if not that is nuts, right? Well, and that's an and that's sort of the one line where Amy's like, you're just not what I expected, you know. Yes there. I'm sold on this now. Yeah. You know in you, ask someone if they murdered someone and they say, no, you just believe them, right? If they're hot. But only if they're hot only if you wanna kiss them. Yeah. And and I think it's believable to because their actual sexual chemistry's. Really believable. We don't get very often in lesbian films because you have less of them. So the percentage of like good chemistry is going to be lower. Right. Sure. Of but I actually like them together. Like when they're romantically together. They're cute together. They're believers Seabrook. Yeah. Gather I was rooting for them that montage Sedona. A lot of sitting on cars the milk. Yeah. Yes. Spooning on cars milkshakes. I'm like, yeah. Sure. Gifting each other handcuffs. Just just kid stuff. The thing. I wanted to talk about is in terms of like the queer representation, I feel like if there is a character in a movie who is like identifiable a lesbian in mainstream movies. She's I feel like she's often. She will often be fairly Butch presenting unsurprisingly a lot of these movies are written by straight people who have a very specific idea of what lesbians look like and how they present. So it's like pulling from those stereotypes, and then helping to reinforce them in this movie the to queer characters who we see are very fem. And I feel like you rarely see that in not that this isn't especially mainstream movie, but like I said in in mainstream movies, you're seeing these various stereotypical ideas of how lesbians present, and it's always like plaid flannel wearing like short hair like, you know. Nice pair overalls. Yes. Well, and this this is also one of the only movies that you have both of them being fem. I do feel like a lot of the times you have one super Butch lesbian. And then one bisexual feminine woman like that's like a very common pairing. But to have both of them be fan, presenting is not as usual. That's what I was. Because I think they are trying to be like, well, look there are different lesbians. But only if one looks like a man and one looks like a woman there, they have this like hetero normative look to them, even though they're lesbians. Right. Yeah. So I thought that was the very least interesting that you see that onscreen win. It's normally not that way. Well, while we're on the topic of how characters are presented in in this movie. Just like a quick a quick moment for wardrobe choice in Studi. So it's a camp movie. I get that. However, I mean, I think that this. This movie it's confusing because this movie is so over the top campy at times. And I'm like, I don't know if you if you were making a point or if this is just what was in the budget. I had to say, it's hard to know. Sometimes I wasn't sure if the costumes were commentary or if they were just not good enough money for more fabric, yet the budget, being whatever they Robinson's pockets that day. Yeah. Right. Because they're wearing private school girl. Plaid skirts like that are way shorter than even the other students at Deb's academy. I who said earlier that it looks like Halloween costumes that seems the perfect ocean. Which one is not appropriate for the spice stuff that they're doing like, no. Because some of them are wearing heels wings to if anyone ever looks up expedite if anyone looks up in that huge restaurant. They're going to be like, you know, I, you know, I don't know. We do we. We know what you're getting at here. I don't there's the wardrobe and this falls into like, I don't know. I mean, there's there's a lot of this movie seems to be parodying movies. Like Charlie's angels. Right. But seemed to just sort of be making some of the same choices without much commentary at times, if there was ever a point in the movie where it was pointed out that like, hey, this outfit doesn't make sense for what we're doing. Then I would sort of be more willing to be like, oh, it's satire. But they just kind of always dressed in ways that they could be so easily killed right? Not practical. And also were you just have to wonder I mean, for how many guns they carry in this film, where they keeping them where do high guns in that skirt? That's what I wanted. And they're huge. Huge guns. Yeah. I I had a lot of these very same questions. Also, when you consider the what I imagine is the intended audience of this movie, which is queer women it then becomes I guess catering to like, the queer female gays rather than the male gaze because you know, it's these traditionally by western beauty standards. Traditionally beautiful women who all have the same body type. They're wearing these tiny skirts. Some of them are wearing shirts that reveal their mid-riff like some of them are in heels. So it's catering to I would think different gays than we're used to seeing when it's, you know, a a mainstream, but the Albany are the same, but they are the same, and it is still showing like this very specific and rigid standard of beauty because again, they all have the same body type. Yeah. There's there's no like diversity in terms of body. Type in this movie early at all I mean max is a little shorter than the rest of them. My I was talking to my boyfriend about this movie today. I guess he saw it on the Sundance channel with his mom wasn't home. And he was twelve and he was like it, honestly changed my life. One of is experiment. Move away. I didn't realize girls could kiss other. Like, my mom wasn't home. And I just like I taped it. It was like on adorable. We have to take another quick break. But we will come right back. Hey, it's Caitlyn and Jamie the Bechtel cab to talk to you about third love once again. Yes, we are. I love my bra so much that I needed to talk more about it. Okay. Well, I have a bra anecdote, please tell me. Okay. So I went to a function the other night as wearing my third love brought because I needed everything in place shows wearing a tube top brag. And I went to the event and who is there. But Alfred Molina I was too afraid to talk to him. However, I was wearing my third love bra. 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I mean, there are a lot of ways in which I have to say the women, you know, they get guns. They have agency there smoking there. You know, like sneaking boys their brooms like there's a lot of things where they don't. They don't really kind of treat them like they're not able to do the things that they're supposed to be doing. It's just right in a very very campy way. Well, and even in their hand to hand combat. I don't think a Deb has ever been knocked out. But like all the men are just incapacitated. That is one of the cool. Yeah. I really agree is is okay abilities are never called into question, which although I have one important question about Deb's abilities. Which is when you have endgame, right? And Lucy crashes endgame and Amy runs away with her. Ever unsease Lucy diamond that dude sounds the alarm and everyone freaks out and starts running isn't every single person. At endgame supposed to be a highly trained. Lose their minds. They're like. Right. Great point four dead's. The only devs who seemed to have any idea of what they're doing. I just think that when I was during my first viewing. And then for some reason during the second viewing. It was like I don't care. But like at the Deb school. I'm like, why are they the only four that ever get to do anything or the other types just not ready or are they doing stuff we just don't know freshman, what are their houses about they're the top wad? Like the top squad. Maybe they gun privileges or something, I don't know seniors. And then here's something I wasn't totally clear on is Deb's academy like an all women's school or their Doumen go there as well. It doesn't look like it. But also, I don't know. But then what is bobby's deal because he's always wearing something that says homeland security. Yeah, I don't think he goes to dubs academ-. How did they meet, you know, spa mixers? Oh, I'm dating a Deb. I'm. Of homeland security you meet on a stakeout at the pool. Rush. Right. Nice meet cute, very cute. But they do make Bobby look like an idiot like in always. Oh, yeah. He can they can never find Lucy diamond at the end he gets beat the crap out of by Lucy diamond with literally one kick out. So the men in this movie are not great except for Scud from also gets knocked out though by Janet. But he lets her because he's in love is into it. Yeah. Feminist icon Scud because love is hard E. War is easy. Love is hard. Another thing that we don't get to talk about that much in this movie. I think goes kind of halfway is you don't get to see women eat in movies a lot which is also crazy. But we there is that scene at the very beginning. When they're with Michael Clarke Duncan where all four of them at least order breakfast. And you hear that at least max appears to eat food and the rest, maybe not as much, but Dominique literally just gets a coffee coffee black. But she's all she was she just exists on coffee and cigarettes. And that's it like all good. French people do coffee six and sex. Thing law by new podcast. Yes. But I I was like we didn't get to actually see women eat, but they did order. I feel like that's not quite enough. It's a step in a better five, you know, getting the order that's progress. I wanted to go back quickly to sort of the conversation about basically, just the fighting that we see which is often the women fighting men, and we've talked about this on different episodes where it's like, okay. Well in a in an ideal world where we have gender equality shouldn't women like shouldn't men be able to like fight women and these action scenes, and like maybe even knock them out and stuff like that. And it's been a complicated subject that we don't really know how to broach especially because in movies so far in where there's action sequences where there are women fighting. It's usually they're fighting other women so. Right there. Only given a rolling pin? We defend. In this movie. Like, we said we've see like women fighting and unusually kicking the shit out of the men that they're fighting. Yeah. Which you know, I enjoyed I feel like that's a step in the right direction. And I think that the the reason that it doesn't really like I like that conversation as important as it is doesn't become super relevant to this movie because it's so campy. And so it's not like, you know, we know that the dubs are better fighters than all the guys are going up against into going into it. So it's never like a battle to the death with a like with a man fighting over like, you know, the Deb is going to win. Right. And that the man isn't going to die. So the stakes don't feel quite as like, you're like, okay, Bob. He's gonna get his ass kicked. And we're going to love it. Right. There is also some way in which it it. A little bit helps the cheesy high school Catholic schoolgirl outfits is that you know. When you look at Bobby and the like, the CIA guys and all those other spies are out there with like their suits in their outfits in their things in their bulletproof vests in there, you know, like big commando, boots and everything and the Deb's are just like, whatever all I need is a tiny little skirt. Maybe a flimsy button-down some heels and like a giant gun, slinging kick your ass. Right. Like, it kind of has that same thing as like Buffy always did where it's like she's just going out there and her jeans and her big blue duster coat and Chiloe is win. And she'll exactly yeah. I don't know. I was weird. I mean, seeing I agree that the the way that the like I think because the ability of the dubs is never in question, nor is the ability of Lucie that this movie. I mean, maybe that's what makes it so easy. And it's so comical how the men are defeated that. Right. Like it says, no one doesn't like watching body. Get punched in the. Fate. It's different than seeing like wonder woman versus captain America. And one of them is going to kill the other. You know, like, it's Jammie different university. Is you know, I don't go good. I never. Got the day Lucy diamond shows up in like, the NC you that's all my. Does that wait does that mean that if they're in different universes? They can't meet a cut in America and wonder woman, ever, they can never mind. Don't imagine. Well, I mean, maybe marvel and DC will, you know, ten years down the line half to cross over hard to say, I hope that maybe there will be a Justice league versus avengers movie. In fact, I'm pitching right here right now just scare that Hollywood. They should just stop making too many. I think there should be more Spiderman into the spider verse movies for sure I think there should be at least twenty of those. But yeah, they can take a break with the feeling there. There will be if you just give him time all be patient. Well, that's one of the things with the movie dubs is that are four main. Deb characters are all women. The main villain is a woman the head of Deb's academy, which is someone who all the Deb's look up to is a woman. All of the male characters are secondary or tertiary. Like, you don't this is a movie populated almost entirely by women in the the men who are in this movie are hardly in this movie. They I mean at the beginning, they try to do like, Michael Clarke, Duncan is very much like doing an angels wake up kind of thing. And then it's immediately revealed that holiday filler is his boss. And if we're going to talk about problematic things, so can we just real quick touch on Mr. Phipps who I mean, while we talk about Lucy breaking into my gosh. Without permission all the time. Can we talk about how he can apparently just like operate? Hologram operating. Warning. Yes. And then has the DASS ity to give an inspiring monologue. When he gets there is like, are you kidding me is one is it inspiring after you just told someone that your basic test for aptitude is how good of a liar. You are. Right. I it sounds like Deb's should be the bad people based on the way they described the test, right? How they can lie cheat fight and kill. But then they're like, and you're the best at it. So you're goody two shoes. Like what what it's confusing who knows? But yeah, I mean, there's a few scenes where there's a room full of people MS Petri will be there. The dubs will be there will be like maybe one or two men in the scene, and the men are just treated the way that women often are in action movies, which is that they are basically scenery who are extras who don't say anything. There's the scene where MS patriots promoting Amy too. Squad captain, and she's accompanied by two men and another woman and the two men don't have any lines that scene. It's only women talking. There's another scene. It's like the aftermath of Amy being discovered having a romantic relationship with Lucy and all the dubs are there. Miss patriots there. Bobby and Phipps are there. But I think Bobby has one line in that CNN, otherwise men do not talk in the and it's just like, and it's only after max tells him exactly what he's doing right day. It's like, okay. Yeah. So bobby's basically in that scene to be offended that anyone might find out that his ex girlfriend is into a girl. Right. Yeah. She which he later dials back on with a gross common. Toll on the swing which I don't think it's any mistake that that statement and the Pook bracelet are in the same. Like, he's like, oh that lesbian thing. It's actually pretty hot. Yeah. Because tonight fuck you. He's like, I know you still love me and your whole thing. That's coulda hut. Yeah. I think that that and Janet has one line at some point when when she's trying to like shame Amy for the whole thing. And she's like, you're just a slut a lot. I two of the worst lines for me in terms of, you know, problematic things said the movie for sure, yeah. There's a few other things that are pretty homophobic. I would say in the movie, but I think because it's so campy you I think you do realize like those characters are clearly they're making it portrayed that they're wrong. Even this Petri tells Amy like, you were out having your college, lesbian experiment. Yeah. Right. Like, this is just a phase that you're having and you if you barris the Deb's by being an experimental lesbian, which is obviously problematic. Ray we're there any characters that made those comments that didn't receive come up in Slater because I was trying to keep track of because once Bobby made that comment in the in both of those scenes, it's I dunno. I my head just went to like, okay. He has. To get his ass kicked. Or this movie isn't doing what it's supposed to. Well, I think Janet gets away Scot free. And she the most homophobic of everyone because she is shaming Amy so hard for liking Lucy diamond when when they almost kiss she so offended. She has that whole like she almost kissed you, and you almost black. That's what I'm interested in. And what everyone thinks about like the story. I feel like protects itself in a lot of ways in in a way, we're able to say kind of problematic things, but because they set it up as like Amy's a hero in Lucy's a villain and conflicting those the two issues right is sometimes they're saying something about like it's kind of coded language of like sometimes they're talking about like, well, the hero doesn't like hook up with the villain. But they're also not talking about that. I don't know it seems like the Janet character especially kind of gets away with stuff like that by couching it with. Well, she kills people. So you can't be with her. Also, the thing I'm not fully saying like. Yeah. Except for the times, she does fully say and thing is Janet is doing all of the same stuff at the very same time. Like, she's also in contact with Scud and having this old flirtation and different. Different because he's a boy, right? But I would I would say at least my read on it is that in most cases in many movies. If a homophobic thing is stated that is how the movie feels about it rather than how a character who is framed as being wronged by the move landfills about it. So I feel like with the exception of Janet and Hearst sort of weird take on everything. And then getting off scot-free about it. I feel like generally, the homophobic things that are said are said by characters who we as the audience understand that feels more satirical and a low in or. Yeah, I mean, even an even with Holland Taylor's. I kind of wish hall in Taylor's character was a little more double down on like her being clearly very wrong. But we always know that she I mean, we we it's already set up that she is a problematic person in general when she doesn't give. A fuck about any of her men tease until they do something that makes her look good. So she's already set up as like a very petty person. And so when she goes on to make comments like that. It's like, well, we already don't like her. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like mystery is not the the redeemable character in this. I feel like it's the arc is supposed to teach you about finding yourself and being true to who you love. And it does that not using her. It's kinda, you know, you're watching that with Lucy and Amy max to a certain extent is a character who I think is shown having that growth of realizing like, oh, we'll a true friend will support you no matter. What right agree max. I mean. Well, we haven't talked about that friendship a lot yet. But maximum Amy's friendship is also very interesting and also because their power dynamic, and that friendship shifts a couple different times in the space of the movie where at. The beginning. It's clear that max is in charge of the friendship. She's like, hey, if you go to art school. I'll fucking kill you and Amy is like, okay. And so it's like, okay max is in charge. And then you see her have like that crisis. And the thing is like when Amy's put in charge of the Deb's for not being killed by Lucy. I don't know exactly where the movie how the movie wants you to feel. But I was like, oh if I was max, I would also be upset because Amy's always talking about. She doesn't want to be a Deb max is busting her ass. And then has it taken from her because Holland Taylor's character isn't paying close enough attention to what the truth is. Right. And and so I was like on Max's side for a good portion. And then she is very professional for the most part. And like compartmentalize is is like, okay, we're on the same team. So I'll do it and then Amy immediately fucks up and almost gets all of her friends killed. So I'm double on Max's side. But then at the end, the dynamics which is again when max is like okay deny everything and like play by the rules. And then I didn't like her again. I don't know that character is all over the place. But then she and then at the end. Like, it's almost like careful. Character development was not the most important thing in just flip flop and all over the place. I was on. I was on Max's side for a lot of the movie, and she she really lost me in that scene where it's explicitly max who is like is this is my idea deny deny deny get back with your homeland security pupa shell guy. Yeah. The second. She suggests body it's all downhill for you from their max and literally puts words into her mouth security. I wrote for you say everything that I say, even when the other girls are like what if she is in love what if she makes her happy, I said, Amy and max had a long discussion after the movie so really sorted their next pops up from the backseat in the car and out their feelings. Oh, good. Well, what what I couldn't help. But notice about that relationship dynamic is that the two non white Deb's in the group are when it comes to Dominique she has very little screen time, and or bearing. Basically just there is a visual joke. Who's always smoking a cigarette or having sex, which is pointed right and someone even calls. I think it's Amy who calls her like a sex addict. And it's like, no, maybe she just that whole line is problems ex because she calls people crazy and sex addicts. Yeah. That whole line can go. So it's either Dominique not having any bearing on the story or its max whose actions are often presented as an obstacle for Amy. So she ends up being sort of an antagonistic force for Amy a lot of the time. And meanwhile, you know, Amy's a blonde white lady and the characters who are people of color are either not doing much in the story or they are in some way in antagonistic force. Yeah, they're they're very much there to help Amy story develop and not much else. There's they're not very. Sistan? There's no real growth or any like, you know, there's not as much given to them as characters yet. They're they're kind of props. And we're super we wanna know from our listeners like how you read that scene. I've had that. That's that was the one reason why max pushing back and being so frustrated when Amy just gets promoted out of nowhere. That's kind of like one of the reasons why that story point worked for me because it is just like this blonde. White girl who accidentally does the right thing is in is immediately put in charge, and then one of the only people color in the entire movie who we know really cares about what she's doing has gone unrecognised works going unrecognised forever. And she's just displaced immediately. And she's like she calls her friend out on it. And not for that explicit reason. But I don't know that that was part of the reason why I was like, oh, yeah. Max. Yeah. Fuck that. Like, that's. That's horrible. But then, but then they kind of sell that character out through poor writing. Yeah. Oh well. Movies are bad. Well, there's another very quick problematic line that gets said by Scud whenever they are doing this Bank heist to lure. Know that line is he says the R word. He does. That. Yeah. Scud, and it's funny because the way that he says it and the sentiment behind that line and his delivery of it is perfect. And that line just needs to go is it should have been a different word. Right. Like if had been any other. I mean, it's definitely one of those things where it's like it is a byproduct of a movie that was made in two thousand and like you'd never see that line of dialogue these. I mean, I also think that's true. If the guns I feel like you would never see the movie done this way with the guns the way, they are or the outfits. I bet like the outfits would be quite that way. Yeah. I I think that I I didn't realize that the R word was in this movie. I would not to cut a break in any way. But I I do sort of agree that that is a byproduct of the time it was made in it is. But that's I'm surprised that it didn't jump out at you. Because it is it's so noticeable. I feel like when you watch the movie to me it. Immediately was like this beacon where you're like. Oh, you can't say that. Like, you know, because if you were watching it today, it'd be like who approved this line of the grant, you know, too busy whacking off to Scud to listen to. Understand. The single worst sentence you've ever said Jamie, Scott, I think that's a fun phrase. Oh, goodness. I did want to just quickly point out Amy's thesis. She says my central hypothesis is that as a woman operating in a male dominated field. You felt the need to overcome overcompensation. Talking to Lucy felt the need to overcompensate by being exponentially more ruthless and diabolical than your established male counterparts. And I think that these psychological forces combined to create a kind of emotional void in which you're incapable of loving or being loved. Honestly, Amy's thesis sounds like a feminist text that I really wanna read. But I don't know. I thought I didn't really love that. These is of like I like that is that these is to me almost came off a little Blaney of like. Well, if you sure women didn't resent their male co worker so much they wouldn't be killing so many people. Hold on. I don't know that that felt a little product of its time. He phrase. Yeah. I didn't give it that. I also really love about it, though is like from a queer perspective. You know, I think those that whole idea of it's like, it's not that you can't love you. Just don't love the way. Everyone expects you to you know. I kinda like that part of it. Yeah. I like that whole scene 'cause I I don't know every scene where Lucy and Aamir pushing back on everything the other person says is good to me. Except is good liquid to there's a way in which it's well, it's not that it's bad. It's just there's a way in which I'm going to completely undo everything. We just finished saying about how like the depths are just so competent, and they can do everything that men can do in heels and skirts, and they don't need anything. Everyone in this movie is the worst spy. And that scene is one great example where Amy's like I have a gun point. But like oh hold on. Let me just tuck my gun under my arm to shake your hand and introduce myself until you, but my thesis and the only place where people are even verse spies than that is when the entire search and rescue operation descends upon Lucy diamonds layer finds her in a sheet and the doesn't arrest her still. They just leave. No shots. They walk away and leave her there even max who's supposed to be like this secret genius of the dubs is like unbelievable and just like beats it just leave, and they they leave and they don't even drive Amy home. They leave her to walk. That they're not very good spies. I'm just going to throw that out there. Dammit, Deb's dot the the last thing I had to say about desert. I went back, and I walked the short film. It was based on his ass. Yes. Yes. It is. I mean, it is. So it won a ton of awards the year. It came out of came out in two thousand and three. So it seems like this short film did really well, and it was immediately put into production to become a movie with the same budget with with the same budget except most of the budget went to paying hall in Taylor. But the the shortfall shells, high end Puka shells. If you're listening in you haven't seen the short film highly recommend it. It is even it moves even faster, it's like raunchier. And if I'm not mistaken, I think that the short film does have an all queer cast, while the theatrical movie does not or at least a majority queer cast, which I don't I mean, I think that I'm not the most qualified person to to make this comment, but it does seem like very often queer films when they're adapted for a larger audience are Darris sanitized a little bit and straight actors are cast in queer roles. I I've fairly certain I think if my research didn't fail me, Amy and Lucy or played by straight actresses and in the original short film. That was not the case weight is clear Kramer queer. If I liked just learning this now in the Amy and in in the in the in the short film. The original short film. No, you're right. I think it's the Ford Deb's that are that are queer. There's a majority topped us. Like sorry. I'm so my whole world is opening up there. No, also, Larry Kramer of glyphosate. Same from Bundy. I got really excited that she. No, I'm I'm so sorry. No, she she appears to be the only straight women in the movie. Or I'm just gonna premise L to sleep tonight's. No problem. I've fully ruined everyone's life. The one the one carryover from the short films cost is Jill Ritchie who plays. Janet. Who? Fun. Fact is kid rock's sister. So. So while amazing thing there's Deb's is one degree of separation from kid rock who knew something we all need to know. Lee in LA. Do you have any other final thoughts about the film Deb's? I do have one final thought, which is just I think while we it's so fun to ride on Deb's. And I love Ryan Deb's because I love it so much. I do think it's important to also mention that while we make fun of their their low budget and the effects and everything that it is interesting to see the transition from Deb's to what Angela Robinson can do with the budget, which is professor Marston, and it's such a far cry between those two movies that I just think it's at least worth pointing out. You know that Angela Robinson is still a beautiful human being for having us steps. And professor Martin's presser Marston. Agreed. And it goes to show when you have a queer woman writing and directing a movie about a clear love story, it's handled. This is not to say this movie is not without its problems. I it is handled. Much better than when these stories are attempted by non queer people. And usually those stories aren't even attempted by non people, but it helps when the person who is creating this story, and this content is someone who has experience and knowledge about these topics. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's heartening to see that someone making their perfect art about the queer spies can go on to have an incredible. I mean, she's had an incredible career. Professor Marston is amazing. She didn't she write and direct quite a few L word and true blood. And like, she's like you making Bank. She's chilling yet. Is she a woman of color? Yes. Yes. That is present me. Then the way that the women of color are treated in Deb's, then but. I would guess maybe it was producers could be. Yeah. I also feel like I think it stands out more with max. I don't know that max is that much less consistent of a character than everyone else in this movie. I mean, I think it's just everybody who is not Amy and Lucy kinda gets short shrift in this version. True and Lucy Giordano Brewster is part Brazilian. I don't know exactly how she identifies in terms of her ethnic identity, but she perhaps identifies as at least mixed not get clear on that. But you know, there's texter. Yup. Please text her and let us know what you find out. Great. So does this movie past the back door? Don't. Yeah. Big fat. Yes. On that. You know, an easy way to pass the Bill test is have to women. And instead of having them talk about a guy haven't talked about how much they wanna bone each other done surefire way. And in one of the very few scenes that I found where they do talk about men. They are talking about Bobby and Amy's like I broke up with Bobby. And someone says why and she's like he was just so boring. And then someone else says, yeah, he's an asset. When men are being talked about, it's usually in an insulting way. Which is great. I think also a super producers Sophie pointed out that this movie would not pass the reverse Bechtel test in that there are not two men. I don't think even talking to each other in the whole movie. But there might if there isn't defense that doesn't sound. Yeah. It doesn't. I don't think there's that scene where Scuds playing bingo with some guys like nobody response to him yet. And they certainly don't have names. Yeah. We don't know who any of those guys are the name of my new band is Scuds playing bingo. And this is a rare case of a movie passing the Vito Russo test a few listeners are not familiar with what that is the Vito Russo tests requires that a film must contain at least one character who is identified LGBTQ plus that character must not solely or predominantly be defined by their sexual orientation or gender identity. In other words, they should be made up of the same sort of unique character traits that are commonly used to differentiate straight characters from one another treated like people. But yeah, oh strange and the q character must be tied into the plot in such a way that their removal from the story would have a significant impact. So this movie without question passes. The Vito Russo test as well as the Bechtel test. So. In fact, I would say in terms of the Bechtel test. This is sort of like an estimated guess, but I would say around seventy percent of the movie is characters passing the Bechtel test. Constant constant conversations with named women who are not talking about men. So and just imagine if they had cut bobby's character it could have been like ninety eight percent. I mean, right. I think we need more Bobby erasure. Yes. Except when it's king of the hill. In that case. More buff, more, Bobby. Okay. That's an interesting take. We can have a Bobby debater. So let's rate the movie on our nipple scale rating of zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of women Hm. I this is hard. This is a this is. I'm gonna give it I think four nipples because there are brief problematic moments here, and there in the movie does as we discussed subscribe to some of the stereotypes that we see of queer women. But the fact that the main cast is almost entirely women and in an inner pretty diverse Cass fairly. Yes. More diverse than your ordinary movie. But certainly in two thousand five yeah. But still no diversity in terms of body type at least among the main four Deb's. Yeah. I think that aside from a few problems that the movie has which I think can be attributed to it being a movie of two thousand four I would say it does fairly well in terms of showing women who have agency and who are propelling the story forward, and it's fun to watch. It's a it's a funny movie. He it is silly suck. But like as they're so little movie without the women. Without any of the women is based on a swing with some bracelets the top of his lungs, right? The movie doesn't exist without the like six main female characters that are needed for this story. So and Scott playing bingo. I would watch that short film on. Yes. So it's great. And the fact that it's as we discussed one of only a very small number of like fun queer, women comedy, movies and existence. I think that's great. So yeah, I'm gonna go with four nipples, and I'll give one to each of the four Deb's. Oh, oh. I'm gonna go three and a half. And the reason we didn't touch on this very much. But something that always kind of bugs me in in movies is when friendships are disrupted by a relationship and a new relationship. Suddenly destroys your friendship structure entirely and censor entire life into chaos, and I I was trying to like go through that entirely. And I do think that in some ways like Amy's relationship, totally shakes the foundation of like her relationship with all of her female friends. And that was the thing that didn't I don't know even though like her character ultimately grows, and I think finds the best of both schools of thought and whatever moves forward that was like one thing that I was like I didn't love that. I don't know. I mean, I guess movies need. Conflict, and if you have a majority female cast, there's gonna be a lot of conflict and infighting between women, but just the whole new relationship completely destroying friendship group for the most part wasn't my favorite thing. But it's also basically a queer Dekom, which is incredible. I I don't know. I mean, it's like, it's such a fun movie. I haven't enjoyed watching a movie twice back to back in a very long time. And it's great. I mean for all the fun ragging on the low production values. It's a good movie. And it's funny story is tight for the most. Yeah. I mean, it's an it's less than an hour and a half long. What more could you ask for? And so I thought it was last so I'll give it a three and a half or three and three quarters. I don't know someone somewhere. It's a scientific there's a wicked pedia page. Did you see that where people are leaving? So now, I feel more conscientious of my nipple ratings and losing sleep. Over it PD page for for us. And then they write down where the nipples. It's really stressful page. I didn't know that they were like documenting all of our nipple goods stupid rather frequently okay? So for whoever's making the Wikipedia page is say three point seven five, and I let her yes. Final answer. I'm going to give also if you are making the Wikipedia page, let us know that it's used so that we can credit you if you want, so I guess I'm going to give one to each of the dubs, except I'm giving slightly less of one to Janet. Okay. Okay. Sorry, Janet, but you are kid rock sister. So. Hard. Lead. You wanna go next with your eating? Yeah. I do. And I'm so Torness well because I feel like if I vote with my heart and my name stealth love for this movie. I wanna give it four nipples. I do also feel like I think it comes in slightly lower than that. And I think my problems do have to do somewhat with the fact that I think Elliot I both have our issues with the whole predatory lesbian trope. And I also do have an issue with the fact that I feel like they really toy in this with the age that they're supposed to appear. And so when you combine the predatory lesbian trope the fact that they're very much casting them as like high school girls. Even though they try to make it clear that they're not. Sort of keeps presenting them that way. Like, I that I have a hard time with so. Yeah, I mean, maybe maybe somewhere around three and a half to can we do we get to sign them as well. Yes on this is so exciting. I wasn't. I didn't prepare. Well this. Okay. If I have to sign three and a half nipples, I am going to assign one two Scud for his excellent motivational quotes. I'm going to give one to max because I just I think Macs should get something more in this movie. Yeah, I'm going to give one to Angela Robinson. Good for, you know, just the the gift of this and other things that she has given queer women, and I'm going to save my last half nipple, and I'm going to gift it to Australia because like what had Austrailia do to you. Gets sank or attitude. Well, I think I have to agree with you Lee that that's around a three and a half mine is because of some of the homophobic comments that just like, even if you're saying them and satire, I think they create a problematic message of friends not being supportive of their friends in lesbian relationships. And I think also the relationship between Lucy and Amy where of course, I love seeing them together. But when you actually take their relationship and put it on paper. It's very Stocker. Yes. So I really don't like that that being said I am going to give a nipple to Lucy diamond because nobody has given her nipple true. And what a hero. She needs one. All right. I'm also going to give a nipple to max, of course, and miss Petri because I love one time. And then have we'll have to go to Dominique because I feel like she's the underdog of this. She has a lot of agency and she's very sex positive to me. She seems AB calls her a sex addict. Yeah. So. Love it. Well, thank you to those of you so much for being here with us. This has been such a fun episode in such a fun movie to discuss having us of your here's where can people find you and follow you online. Is there anything that you would like to plug in terms of social media? You can find us at less. Hang out pod on all the social media, Twitter, Instagram and Facebook, and we also have a YouTube channel YouTube dot com slash less. Hang pod. And we post songs on there. We actually write original songs based on lesbian movies. Oh, cool. You can see some of those on our YouTube channel. Yes. You can also follow us individually. Our social media things I'm on Twitter and on Instagram at L S H foster, and I'm at E Brigitta, and we do wanna plug. We have our very first live show coming up on February eighteenth at the bell house in Brooklyn. So. We will be doing some fun things. They're about movies that should have been gay even if they weren't. Ooh. That sounds awesome. Take a trip to New York probably going to do one in at some point. So hopefully. Yeah. Cut you there. Yeah. Let me know. Well, thank you again so much for being here. You can follow us the Bechtel cast on social media platforms at Bechtel cast. You can subscribe to our patriotic aka matriarch on where you get two bonus episodes every single month, and it's only five dollars a month. You can go to Becca cast dot com. We have our merch store there or you can go to public dot com slash the Bechtel cast, and you can get all of our cool merch all of our designs all of our items are right there. Get it for your sweetheart. Or yourself anybody on your brother or sister? Literally, anyone whatever floats your, but I just gave my dad a Bechtel kost mug because my dad is a dad, and therefore he likes mugs, dad's, love mugs, and I sent it to him. And he sent me back a text of his mug full of pens. And the caption was my pen. So back talk house, mugs are great for pins. Machen love mugs. My dad's dating profile. And right and reviews on itunes and all that fun stuff. And otherwise, we'll see you next week. I pay Mario Lopez here. And I really hope you can check out my new podcast, listen to Mario LTM definitely side of me that you've never seen before. So please, listen and subscribe at apple podcasts or on the iheartradio app or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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