A double down on federal force, a do-over on coronavirus
The United States is in search of leadership. On many significant challenges, we face at this difficult moment in our country, and on two major issues, the handling of the coronavirus, pandemic and protests against racism and police brutality. Most Americans are dissatisfied with the leadership they've seen thus far as cases rise across the country and fears persist a Washington Post ABC News, poll found that sixty percent of Americans disapprove of president trump's handling of the coronavirus. Meanwhile polls also show that a majority of Americans disapprove of trump's handling of protesters and race relations. In fact, a Washington Post Charter school poll last month's should that alarm margin voters said it was more important to have a president who could heal racial divisions than one who could restore security by enforcing law this week. Trump seemingly started off with hopes of turning poles around, but his strategy has been somewhat perplexing on the coronavirus. Trump is seemingly attempting to reset. Almost start over. He's introduced. Coronavirus focused press briefings. He's even put on a mask a few times and tweeted pictures of himself, wearing one but on. On protests, it seems like the president is doubling down trump at federal law enforcement officials into Portland escalating clashes on the city's streets between protesters and authorities, and he's threatening to send more federal agents into democratic led cities, experiencing speeds of crime across the country. So why is trump taking such different approaches to these two issues? Both where he's met with public disapproval, can his attempt at coronavirus do over actually helped contain the virus, and on the other hand. How much power does the president have to send federal forces into American cities as trump casts himself as a law and order strongman? What are the consequences? This can he do that? A podcast that explores the powers and limitations of the American presidency. I'm Alison Michael's. Later in the show I talked to national security reporter at Matt's Petoskey about the federal response in Portland, and how much federal force the president can use in his own cities, but I I turn to White House reporter, Ashley Parker for more on trump's change of tune on the coronavirus and public health this week to understand how this message has evolved I. I. Ashley Ashley to Recap What we've seen from the president up until this point, so the president has had a couple of different messages on the coronavirus over the past few months, but all of them have basically been born out of the fact that he did not take the virus as seriously as health, experts and medical officials believe he should have from. From the very beginning, and they're still and has not been for the past four or five months. There is still no national plan to deal with the virus. Oh, the president has tried lots of different messages. He's talked about how the viruses just gonNA disappear sort of magically go away. He's referred to what we're seeing now as embers and flames, when in fact, those embers and flames are more than one hundred forty thousand Americans dead. He's talked about having to push on and return to work in life and open up the economy and say the virus the disease can be worse than the cure, and so he's. He's done a bunch of different messages, but very few of them are sort of the. Somber rooted in the scientific data, a lot of not just public health officials, but his own citizens are clamoring for, but now it looks like perhaps his approach over the past week has started to slowly change I he. He returned to hosting these coronavirus press briefings. What do we know about why? He decided to bring the briefings back, so the president had been doing. Doing briefings earlier in the corona virus in these were briefings that were originally a couple months ago, conceived as the coronavirus task force, and so that's led by Mike Pence that involved all a public health experts at medical officials like Dr Vouch. Ian Dr Burks and the President One day. He showed up allegedly just to watch, and then he took it over it. It. He realized he wanted to do the briefings. And they became sort of an outlet for him to vent and fight with the press, and get grievances off his chest, and recreate some of the energy of campaign rallies, but they were not serving their originally intended purpose as a place to find out wh-. What is the latest with testing? Do they need to be? Be wearing masks. What happens if someone in their family tests positive? What happens if they have symptoms? But they can't get their primary care physician to prescribe tested, and so finally after a particularly bad briefing where the president seemed to suggest injecting disinfectant into our veins, the the briefs were stopped. They have now been brought back partially out of the recognition and realization. That as much as the president wants to reopen the economy and get people back to work in life, he also needs to acknowledge the reality on the ground, which is that we are still in the throes of the first wave of deadly pandemic, and that they he needs to go out there. It doesn't have to last super long. Ideally, he's not fighting with the media. Ideally, he's not going off topic, but he needs to go out there and present as the president of the United States the most up-to-date scientific public health information to the public and offer them a little bit of reassurance. Reassurance and empathy has been happening. How have these briefings been going so far so far? The president has proven himself capable of reading off a script in the past briefings. You've seen the president basically. Get up there. He's had not a teleprompter, but some sheets of paper and he has read off of it, and he said all the right things. He said that masks are important. He has said that he doesn't like to say this. But that the virus is going to get worse before it gets better sort of read the words of empathy to the public. He's done all that and. The one challenges when he stops reading off of the sheet, and he takes questions with reporters is where there is the potential for him to go off script, but on the whole for two days at least he has managed to largely stick to a script, and obviously ratings and audience are important to trump or these briefings garnering the same amount of attention as they did back in March or American still. Still interested in hearing from the president on this crisis that now seems out of control in the absence of a national response president trump. When he was talking about bringing back these briefings, it was interesting. He talked about in terms of ratings in terms of getting a prime spot in terms of bringing back the show. He's sort of wasn't talking about it in terms of a good venue to offer. Offer the latest in the scientific data, but my senses. Yes, the reason the briefings were so popular before and the reason they began to hurt him. Frankly was that Americans of all stripes were in are tuning in, and they're not tuning in the way. Trump supporters tune into a rally. They were tuning in people who are stuck in their homes quarantine during a deadly pandemic. Who are really desperate for information? Information of what does it mean if I think I was exposed? How do I handle? It still remains a bit of an open question. How much trump can really provide that? You mentioned that Americans are tuning into these briefings in different ways than his supporters may tune into his rallies, but how much has trump's sort of stumbling? Return to rallies contributed to his interest in resuming these briefings partially. Partially, the president has been looking for outlets to kind of create the energy that he gets from rallies, but the reason he is really resumed. These briefings is not his aides. Hope for them to take on a rally. Feel because that hurts him politically the incongruity of trying to hold a a Maga- rally in the middle of the deadly pandemic from the White House briefing room is just not appropriate the. The reason they have really returned is because the president realized that politically he's paying a price for his handling of the pandemic, and he needs a platform to sort of demonstrate that he is capable of rising to meet the moment as a leader who is taking the science and the Public Health Information Seriously is a leader who actually has a national plan to get this country out of the pandemic. Pandemic out of this wave, and is a national leader who can lead and feels empathy, and so that is what they are hoping. He can demonstrate with these briefings, and it's not just these briefings early this week. Trump even tweeted a picture of himself in a mask thing. Many people say that it is patriotic to wear a face mask when you can't socially distance. Is this part of an attempt to? To reshape messaging, little bit yeah I, mean his aides have been desperate for him to wear a mask. Wearing a mask is sort of public health one a one. It is one of the most basic things you can do. It's a very easy thing to do, and it's one of the things that public health experts say actually makes a huge difference in stopping the spread of the virus and so. That tweet and him wearing a mask once or twice was part of in effort to demonstrate that again he can sort of be responsible, sober leader for this bowman, but but I will say he's not quite there yet because he gets up in the briefing room. And he doesn't wear a mask and again when you ask why he doesn't wear a mask. He says well. You know you wear a mask to protect others to protect yourself, but I know that everyone in this room has been testing doesn't have the virus and I've been tested I know that I don't have the virus, so there's no need for me to wear a mask in this situation. Well, that may technically be true, but one of the reasons why the president of the United States could. Could and should wear. A mask is to model good behavior. He's the leader of the country. A lot of people dislike him, but a lot of people view him as a hero in a role model, and even those who don't like him politically look to him for leadership in this moment, and if you have a president wearing a mask in modeling, good behavior that would go a long way to getting. Getting Americans who are skeptical to wear masks, so yes, did he wear a mask to Walter Reed shore? Did He tweet out a photo of himself in a mask? Yeah, but is he doing what you might expect a previous or more traditional president to do wearing a mask all the time to send a signal to the entire nation that this is important. This is easy and wearing a mask is patriotic. Patriotic No, he's not so I think my main question here is. Will any of this work? This new messaging and tone will at work, and I mean that question both politically, and in terms of actually containing the virus. I'm asking them together. Because it sort of seems impossible to disentangle the two at this point well to answer the second question first about will this work in terms of containing the virus. He said that he he's gone there, and he said we have a national plan, but he hasn't actually said what it is, and he hasn't actually rolled it out yet, and this is the thing the president has been running up against. He is very much throughout his life than someone who is engaged quit successfully the power of positive thinking or magical thinking about this. This virus that can't be tweeted away or bullied away or derisively nicknamed away or wished away so if he actually wants to combat the virus, he is actually going to have to lead a government and taking steps to for instance, come up with a plan for testing, so anyone who needs a test can get a test, and not just that but more importantly. People can get the results that day, or within twenty four hours, because if you take a test and it takes eleven days to get your results. That's pretty useless in in meaningless. You may go out and in fact, three dozen more people in that time. When you're waiting for your results because you think I feel fine, I obviously don't have the virus and it turns out. You're an eastern dramatic super spreader, so he actually has to use the levers of government to combat the virus. If this will work politically, which is an equally intriguing question, we don't know on the one hand. He is sort. Sort of asking Americans to just ignore the past four or five months and his behavior and his actions, and his lack of action in his rhetoric nuts a pretty big ask that said I've talked to a number of people in the President's orbit, who believe perhaps not incorrectly that you know Americans are an incredibly forgiving people in if it seems like the president finally gets his act together and is taking steps to help. Them deal with this pandemic and showing empathy, and you're showing that he is sincere and earnest in concerned in doing his best, they may be willing to see him a lot of slack and understand. The virus isn't just going to go away overnight, but they appreciate the fact that he's taking real steps to reopen their community and keep them safe, but but we don't know yet. It's still pretty early to tell so effectively. The president is taking a stab at a do over. Over, but we've seen this so much. Throughout his presidency, he leans one direction. He tries to take a more effective stands, and then ultimately he sort of breaks and sends a tweet that reflects the beliefs. He seemed to hold from the beginning, and all of that is to say. Do you expect this new tone? This new approach to last? It's been two days. If history is any indication, this will not last indefinitely again. Is He capable of reading off a script? Yes is. Is he capable of moments of self discipline. Absolutely could this new tone last for another day or two another week? Sure beyond that he is again, I'm just speaking historically has proven himself fairly incapable of long-term discipline, and often he gets into a pattern where he does the thing that he doesn't WanNa do, and he goes out, and he begrudgingly does what his aides want him to do. which is read off the script and offer realistic assessment of the virus, and then He. He goes back and he watched his cable news and he gets furious that he's not getting the rave reviews he expected, and then he gets angry and he. You know that he's not a fair shake in the media is awful and ever out to get him. And then he sort of spirals, and then the next day at the briefing. He goes off message or he gets a fighter. He sends out a tweet so having cupboard him. Since basically, he announced his campaign I. would be quite surprised if he manages to maintain this posture until election day, but you number now, so we didn't episode of this show back in May when outbreaks were just starting to pop in parts of Rural America that episode explored the question of whether trump strategy around the virus, eventually change as parts of the country with more of his base, would-be impacted by the virus, so just WANNA revisit that to raise the question of how much of trump's new trategy comes as a response to what he's hearing from his base about the impact of the virus on them today a do think one thing that has changed his view. A little bit is when the virus I started the hardest hit place. Was New York in the coasts, frankly and those are not trump's traditional based, but now when you hear him, talk about it, he talks about. It's in the sun belt. It's in the south. It's in states that are trump states. Cases are spiking in Florida and I think he is hearing from some of these governors who our allies that that this is a real problem that this isn't a hoax that they need PPA or the the more trucks are overrun or that they're almost at capacity, and they're not sure what they're going to do about ICU beds if they have another three more bad days so i. do think part of that may be. Be influencing his approach to to recognize to take this seriously and can't just pretend. It doesn't exist all right before I. Let you go I. Just want to touch on something else. Particularly notable about trump's team Jing tone around the virus this week, and that's how it contrast with his approach to race relations in the related protests in this country. That's another major issue facing our country where according to polling Americans give trump poor marks, so while trump is taking this new almost do. Do over approach to the virus. He's seems to be doubling down on his response to protests around the country. It's a pretty stark contrast. Why is the White House taking such different approaches to these two issues? Where on both Americans generally disapprove of trump's response, the president still fundamentally believes that a tough stance of law and order is one that will be politically beneficial to him. It was one that was politically beneficial to him in two thousand sixteen during that campaign in his said. Said to you know privately to aides and advisers that he thinks you know he will ultimately be rewarded politically for taking a tough line stance on you know what he's sort of calls heritage right not renaming military bases that are named after confederate generals, not tearing down statues of confederate leaders is other problematic people historically, and also taking a tough stance on and order the thing that he is grappling with and that he hasn't seemed to totally come to terms with is that. This isn't a purely about law and order. It's about America's original sin and race relations going back to the country's very day in, and the ground has shifted under him so quickly. If you look at the polling, this is something where Americans are changing their views in the wake of George Floyd's death incredibly rapidly from just a year or two ago, and it's not just black Americans. Americans, who are taking part in the black lives matter movement. It's all Americans, and it's interesting talking to some of these Republican never-trumper groups that are trying to defeat him, and they'll stay in the polling. People give bad marks on the coronavirus, but the thing that really upsets them and the thing where they're much more likely to actually vote against a Republican. Who may be begrudgingly? begrudgingly voted for him last time and it's on the fence. This time is the way he's handling the racial protests in the country, not the coronavirus. There's sort of willing to forgive of an act of God so to speak. It's not that the president's handling was perfect, but they're willing to cut some slack on a deadly pathogen that came out of China but when a president. President, in their view seems to fail to rise to the moment when an unarmed black man is killed in police custody, and it's just the latest in a in a casket of these deaths in the president doesn't seem to empathize or or to heal in unite the nation. There is just a level of disgust that you're seeing reflected in in polls and focus groups right now. The president has Ashley. Said hasn't tried to heal. Unite the nation over recent protests. In fact, his response in Portland has been to send in federal forces and many of these federal forces from the Department of Homeland Security Agency that was formed to prevent another September eleventh attack, not to contain protests or riots inside American cities. that a Portland of militarized agents, clubbing protesters and stuffing them into unmarked vehicles have alarmed. Civil liberties advocates the displays of government power echo tactics long associated with authoritarian rule, and yet trump has said that the use of federal force will continue. He's also threatened to send federal law enforcement personnel into other democratic led cities experience of crime. I talked to national security reporter Matt that petoskey about how exactly trump has the power to send federal agents into American cities. So Matt. We've seen protests flare up across the country in the past few months. What has the situation been like in Portland specifically will pour. One has been really probably the hottest city in the country particularly in recent days, so for dozens and dozens of nights you've had demonstrations. Sometimes violent in recent days focused on the federal courthouse. And police have responded with Significant Force D. H. ask the Federal Department of Homeland. Security actually deployed a contingent of over one hundred various federal agents, customs and Border Protection. These people called Federal Protective Service which protect federal courthouses to quit down this unrest, and by their account, the protesters have been quite violent lobbying projectiles trying to set the courthouse on fire using you know sort of aggressive violent tactics. Tactics and that has generated significant controversy. Has the president been portraying Portland publicly? He's been portraying. Portland is a city out of control. He has from the start of this tried to cast himself as sort of the law and order president the president who's not going to be willing to put up with any kind of violence at these protests, and he has took particular aim at Portland, and so has. Has You know sort of conservative media presenting this as just sort of a city that has lost control. The trump administration decides to as you said, send federal law enforcement officers from Department of Homeland Security into Portland. Who are these federal agents at what's their normal role is mainly the Department of Homeland Security in various components of that, so I think just mentioned a federal protective service their normal role. Role is to patrol courthouses. You also have customs and border protection contingent. Their number role of courses like enforcement on the border, stopping of people were trying to come in the country illegally from coming in the country. There's been this specialized team known as a GORTEX team, which the easiest way to think of it as sort of like the Swat of DHS. They're normally people who respond to like narcoterrorists. Narcoterrorists and things like that, and then you have some US marshals, which is a Justice Department component. They normally pick up fugitives, but they also have some responsibility with courthouse protection so to be clear. These agents are not people especially trained in protest or riot control. No, the federal government generally doesn't do any kind of on the street riot control on. It's just not their normal function typically when you. You have seen in other cities their response to protest in these kind of armored guys. That's often local or state police. This is generally not the federal government's Bali with Federal Government Bureau of Prisons. Riot teams that respond to riots inside of federal prisons, which is a little different, but these guys. This is not their normal function. So then why is trump picked d? H S officers specifically descend into. into cities where there's unrest well, it's a good question. I think one is because he can, and to is because if you're GonNa pick anybody in some ways. You could make a case that dhs makes the most sense. The Federal Protective Service does protect the courthouse, trump and the administration. I should say not just trump at Chad Wolff. WHO's the acting? Secretary has said look what we're doing here is. Is Protecting Federal Property Customs and Border Protection is a little bit weirder, but if you have an agency, that's willing. These guys are law enforcement officers. They can do it, so trump has has chosen them. Talk to me about how D. H S is willing to participate in this. How much is their choice through their elective entry into this effort? And how much is the president's command some analysts? Jess officials who have. Looked at what's going on and looked at the Department of Homeland Security kind of look at it and see an agency that has an acting leader, a longtime acting head. Chad Wolf, and so they are wondering I don't know they can conclusively say or prove. That boy is trump turning to this acting guy because he's on a little less solid footing in. He's a little more malleable than say. The FBI would be to do some of this. Who has a Senate confirmed leader? The Justice Department. Though is involved with the marshalls. That isn't like a totally complete explanation of what's going on here culturally, VHS is a little unusual. It's this agency that was formed in the wake of. Of nine eleven to of course protect Homeland Security I think the conception was it would be terrorism focused and border focused, and so it's kind of Split, since then though right so in addition to doing these border things, these terrorism things DHS has the secret service under it it has these people called Homeland Security investigators which do cybercrime. Some of them might be less willing to be involved in the street protests, but these Tek guys and others might be more willing. There's not a choice when the commander in chief tells you to do something right or the acting secretary of the part of Homeland Security tells you to do something, but just culturally there might be some people. Who are more willing to do this work than another component who would say well Jeez? That's not normally my job, so just to clarify or around this. Can he do that question here? Is it within the president's power to send these agents into American cities? Oh, absolutely so federal agents, and that includes a DHS can enforce federal laws, so the president can definitely one hundred percent send them in to protect the federal courthouse or to investigate attacks on federal officers I. Think the question becomes if they go beyond that, so we've seen some video in Portland of people. People being taken into custody. What seems to be far from the federal courthouse or the demonstrations that are going on, and it isn't clear that those people did anything wrong, and that would not be okay. I mean it wouldn't be okay for agencies, local or federal to take somebody into custody without probable cause, but if there was some sort of pattern or practice of DHS trying to enforce local laws or sweeping up without probable cause that would be legally problematic in the case of Portland, was local law enforcement not enough to handle these protests. What was local? Local law enforcement failing to do here on trump's few. Yes, Sean forcement was not doing an adequate job of protecting the courthouse, and in fact it'd probably is more than Marshall or the federal government's responsibility to do that. In terms of the question of enforcing state and local laws, the feds can do that if they're sort of asked so protecting the federal courthouse definitely firmly within their authority, you would expect them to be the ones doing that, but if they ran often picked people up for loitering or violations of local ordinances that could potentially be a crime. Crime and that is what the mayor of Portland and other cities mayors have worried about that. You're just gonNA, have this roving federal police force trying to affect trump's conception of law and order? There's a limited set of laws that federal authorities can enforce if the locals don't bequeath on them, the Authority to enforce local laws, and in this case Portland decrease that. Did they request help from the federal government? In this case, Portland has become very resistant to it. In fact last night. You actually saw Portland's mayor on the front lines of the protests getting teargassed. In this instance, the relationship has become very very fraught between The locals and the Fete I just to drill down on this difference a little bit more about what power federal law enforcement actually has at a local level. So if I'm protesting in Portland, candiate personnel arrest me and bring me to jail would depend on what you did. So if you were protesting in Portland and you tried to light the federal courthouse and fire. Yes, they could. If they suspected that you attacked a federal officer. Yes, they could, if you if they suspected you of committing some other federal crime like drug crime, let's say or are. They suspected you of being involved in gang activity? Sure, they could now if you violated, let's say a local loitering. Order a without the blessing of state and local officials. No, they shouldn't be doing that. It should be the state or local police taking you into custody for let's say violating some loitering order and no one should be taking you into custody merely for exercising your First Amendment right to protest. Now, trump is threatening to send US law. Enforcement personnel to other democratic led cities like Chicago and New York. Why is he expanding this effort? When it seems to have gone sort of poorly in Portland why what is he trying to accomplish? In these other cities, law enforcement officials at the Justice, Department and D. Hsa. There are two things at play here. One is the response to civil unrest, and that's what we've seen. In Portland, that's what we've seen with the deployment of more than. Than, one hundred federal agents there in in these other cities. It's a little different, though it's all become wrapped up because trump is trying to present this as a unified effort to crack down on violence in other cities, though like Chicago like Albuquerque, New Mexico and a couple of weeks ago, before Portland got really hot in Kansas City, the Justice Department ruled out this initiative. Called Operation Legend and this is sort of cracking down the way the Justice Department tells it on violent crime. Crime so they're increasing the number of F. B. I. Agents and Marshall's and DA agents. ATF agents on existing Federal anti-violence Task Force. So this isn't the people who are looking out over protests and making sure everything's cool there, but this would be people investigating gangs and drugs and murders, and those things exist all the time. It is interesting that president trump has chosen this moment to announce an expansion of this effort, because the relationship between the federal government and local mayors is very strange. Strange, local mayors are very wary of their city becoming Portland with these roving bands of federal officers like, are you? GonNa then shift to monitoring unrest to the extent. We have that. Are these officers GonNa, do more than just the work that they do day to day trying to help us with violent crime, so it's kind of exacerbated this existing tension because of Portland even though the way president trump couches it. It's to respond to violent crime and I should add one important point. Critics say that this is political right? That trump is kind of looking at the images in Portland, trying to cast that as a city that's out of control and sort of extrapolating that to say see look at all. These urban areas run by Democrats. They're out of control to in different ways, because it's violent, crime and I. The federal government have to go in. In and fix their problem in these mayors, particularly in Chicago has said look, this is just a political stunt. It remains to be seen how effective that federal help here in violent crime would even be. This is the Mayor of Chicago opinion is that he's just trying to distract from his failure on the corona virus by trying to change what everyone's talking about to? American cities out of control violent unrest. That kind of thing is there anything that local officials can do to stop this influx of federal law enforcement in their cities if they want to. Some have said that they would sue so. There is a a technically illegal mechanism that they can do that. They can sue, but. Legal analysts I talked to. You say if they're suing to stop the deployment of federal office in their cities, it that's just not. That's not realistic. That's not practical. They probably are not gonna be able to convince a judge to tell the federal government. Hey, you can't come. Enforce federal law in our city, and you can see why there would be good reason for that right like the Justice Department. Just charge the speaker of the. Ohio, House, in a big corruption case in my hometown they. They charged several members of the city council with corruption. If states and cities could say, you can't come in here, enforce. The law essentially would be licensed to get away with corruption, so there's good reason that federal agents are allowed to enforce federal law anywhere now states could sue and people who get taken into custody on lawfully could sue perhaps for monetary damages they could perhaps get judges to remind the Department of Homeland Security Hey. You're authority limited, but in terms of stopping the deployment. It legal analyst. I talked to say it's unlikely that they would be able to affect that result. As you've mentioned, trump has long considered himself the law and order president, and he seems to view sending these federal agents into American cities as a way to show that. In addition to the use of force against Americans, are there other drawbacks to the president acting unilaterally descend federal officers into cities to as he claims combat violence I mean one drawback is that it exacerbates the tension, so you already have this tension. You have nightly protests in Portland and then you drive even more angry demonstrators to the streets because they're mad about the presence of federal authorities in their city. Another thing that former DHS officials former Justice Department officials have told me as like look the net. Net long-term effect of this is it just undercuts faith and trust in federal law enforcement. It damages the relationship between local and federal law enforcement, so where there might be a legitimate benefit to having federal law enforcement on these task forces to help with drugs and gangs and guns now that relationship is going to be severed. Locals are not going to want that help, or it's just going to be more difficult. That could be a problem that could actually hurt the impact on fighting crime I-, last question. This week, we finally saw trump basically tacitly admit that his coronavirus strategy has not worked. He's encouraged Americans to wear masks and stay away from bars, and yet he seems unrelenting on his approach to protests and race relations. Why is this the one issue that trump seems reluctant to backtrack on from the moment he took office presenting himself as a law and order president has been his thing his inauguration, he gave this very dark speech about the state of violence in America. He posted these talking points on his website about how he was not going to coddle the rioters and looters seeming to. To allude to protesters. He's had this very much. I'm backing law enforcement mantra throughout his tenure as president, comparing that to the corona virus corona virus is a very new thing that he did. His position seems to have shifted onto hope. You know by the time this post. Maybe we'll have shifted back, but with law and order. This is one of his hallmarks from the beginning. It would be much more dramatic for him to make a shift on that then something that he only really established his position on some months ago. All Right, Matt, thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Thursday afternoon after Dr Matt Justice. Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz announced that he's opened an investigation into the use of force by US marshals in Portland and he will review. Federal agents conduct in recent months at protests both there and in Washington DC. And one last thing I want to mention a survey from the Washington Post audio team. We love to hear your thoughts on this show and other Washington Post podcasts, so we can keep making things that you want to hear to share your feedback. Go to Washington. Post, dot. COM SLASH PODCAST survey all one word. Tell us what you like what you don't and what else you want from us. 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