Milton Glaser | Make Things That Move People [Best Of]

Automatic TRANSCRIPT

So over the history of this show spending eight years more than five hundred guests. Two years filming on location and crew, and now more than six years is a podcast. I have been asked one question over and over and over. So who's your favorite guest so when you do what I do, you learn quickly to dodge the answer to that question for one. You can't win for any name. He dare to offer your simultaneously snubbing hundreds, and if I'm blessed to keep doing this long enough thousands of other people, but more importantly. If you're really paying attention, truthfully, there is no such thing as a favorite guest. Guest I don't do this to be entertained or to fall in love or to make new friends or to have favorites I do because I love doing it, and because it's a bit like my living laboratory, it's it's not about who I liked best, but rather who I have learned from WHO has left changed and on that level would have come to believe as you learn something if you allow yourself to remain open from every single person. As it is on screen. Has It is in front of a Mike in Studio on the? So it is in life. But as I sit here today. Having just learned of the passing of a man who has become as our producer, Lindsay often reminds me. The single most referenced guest by me. In the history of the show Milton Glaser. I can admit to one truth over the same span of time much as I have been profoundly inspired and humbled and awakened, and learn more than any book or school or course of study has taught me. There have been very few guests. Who when they walked out. The door left me thinking to myself. I live their life. Milton glaser was at the top of this very short list born and raised in the Bronx. He discovered what would become his life's work, and never in his eighty five or so years of. Building on that veered from it to make things that move people those are the words he shared with me. As soon as These words were offered in that classic Glazer Rasp. I can feel every cell in my body. Come alive with resonance me, too. I felt me to. My whole body just saying with recognition and resonance. Me To Milton me to. Glazer's list of accomplishments in the world of design and media and education, the stuff of legends launching a design agency push pin studios in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, four with a bunch of friends who he graduated, Cooper Union with he would change the face of commercial illustration of art and design that famed Iheart. Logo Did that a tribute to the city. He loved so fiercely at a time when it was on the verge of bankruptcy of crumbling underneath him, Glazer wanted to do his part to help people. Re Imagine it to see the way he knew it to be the way it was in his heart, which probably explains why he was also a founder of York magazine that iconic Bob Dylan Rainbow Hair poster with more than six million copies in print glazer again. Thousands of other works of art posters, brands product packaging restaurants. You name it. Glazer was behind so much of it and Milton's work he it's been seen everywhere from the halls of global industry to local pub to. The Museum of modern. Art in New York City the George Pompidou Centre. In Paris in two thousand four. He received the Cooper Hewitt National Design Museum Lifetime Achievement Award. He received the National Medal of Arts Award from President Obama in two, thousand, nine, the first graphic designer ever to be given dishonor. The man had his own typeface Glaser Stencil. That, brilliant mind and the artful hand, and the impact that they would have didn't stop at making, though he also taught for more than five decades, he shared his wisdom his lens on everything from life to art to beauty to work to love with thousands of students, many of whom have now gone out into the world to make their own lasting marks, and it wasn't just this diversion to craft to making meaning to the creation of an noticing of beauty to his commitment to teaching and giving back to the work. It was the choices that he made about who and what matter to him. The deep sustained commitment to living life on his terms, and never allowing himself to be boxed into anyone else's expectations in any domain of life to working and playing and spending time with his wife Shirley who he wed in one, thousand, nine, hundred, fifty, seven, and to whom he remained married until the day he died at age ninety one. On Friday by the way which was also magically in classic Glazer style his birthday. One A friend of mine reach out to me back in two thousand thirteen and mentioned she was actually an old friend. Of Glazer's from back in their Osram days, and like an introduction I nearly fell over. Yes, yes, please a few months later. I found myself along with our film crew. We were filming back then in the front room of Glazer. Studio, setting up for a conversation that that I never wanted to end, nor did the crew we were transfixed. We'd have stayed longer but timeless tight. He was deep at work on a new show for museum. Did I. Mention he was eighty four at the time. During this wide ranging conversation, we talked about his astonishing journey to the teacher who validated his choice of happiness over safety about what drives him to continue to create how he? Who and what to work on? We talked about the difference between the urge to make and the desire to create beauty, the role of formal art education and the difference between a calling and a career. We also had a fascinating conversation about the role of computers, technology and art and design, and how it's affecting our ability to create. He has a very unusual take. He actually uses computers almost every day, but he he never. Actually touched them. You'll have to listen to understand this. Take the depth of his generosity of thought left me, not only re. My own choices, but yearning to reconnect with something that laid all to dormant for me for far too long, my own desire to make not just. But stuff. And meaning to work with my hands, and be able to step back and say Yeah I did that. My brief time with lung laser left me change. It. Not only planted the seeds, but also offered a model of what a re-imagined life might look like. You may not know Glazer's name. But if you've been alive and paying attention to the world, even remotely for more than a hot minute. You and your life you hurt your mind. have been touched either directly by his work and very likely by the work of the thousands of artists, designers, educators, makers, founders, many of whom would become his students, and then carry on. That legacy of making things that move people never bound by the ideas and insights of this giant, but rather inspired and invited to step into their own truths to make their own things that move people to create beauty however defined. Through the Lens of their own beating heart and their own shared mind. And so was kind of a heavy heart, but also. Really Alive and celebration of his life and legacy. I'm so excited to share with you this best of conversation. You will notice that the audio quality is a bit different, not quite our studio quality this as I mentioned earlier was actually filmed on location and fittingly. Joyfully towards latter parts, you'll also hear the sounds of little children laughing in the background glazer studio. It turns out where we filmed. It was a standalone townhouse that abutted the playground for a local. New York City Public Elementary School on any given day you could open the window and hear the energy of these little kids feel the studio, and as we would learn on this day. That was. Part of the magic part of the man. I hope you enjoy this conversation on Jonathan fields and this is a good life project. A. Good life project is supported by hub spot complex enterprise software. It shouldn't get in the way of launching your next campaign. That is why hubs spot built the new marketing hub enterprise, so say goodbye. Countless hours of software management their platform offers the power and flexibility that scaling companies need to succeed with the ease of use that you expect, so you match every. Every customer interaction to revenue use A to test and optimize and create more personalized experiences, plus you can integrate hub spot with hundreds of other tools and APPs so managing your outdated and overly complex software start creating remarkable customer experiences learn more about the new features in marketing hub enterprise ad hub spot, dot com slash wondering that's hub spot dot com slash wondering. Together with Apple Books Oprah is bringing you her next book club Pick Deakin, King, Kong, by James McBride to story of connections community at Love in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty nine New York City social novel with a heart of gold and characters that will crack you up and make you cry. Download Deacon! King Kong at Apple Dot. COM SLASH OTC and you can also explore millions of other books and audio books on the apple books APP already on your iphone and ipad there you'll find bestsellers, classics up and coming Authors and more so get started today and read with us. So, we're sitting here today in a room surrounded by. Incredible art incredible design probably years and years of work. and. It's interesting to because they almost don't know where to die then, but one of my curiosities is. Where did this all come from a curious in when I think about your body of work? Going way way back before it was a body of work. ME, like as a kid. Where does this? Where does the seat of this come from? Are you going to continue to ask me? Questions I can't be answered. I'll. Be My best. have no idea where it comes from. That after. A while you begin to realize a how little you know everything. and to have vast. The brain is and how they compasses. Everything you can imagine but more than that everything you can't imagine. What is? What is perhaps central to this is the impulse to make things. Which seems SEMAIT BE? A primary characteristic of human beings desire to make? Things whatever they turn out to be and then. Supplementary to that is desire to create beauty. which is a different? But analogous activities so. The urge to make things probably a survival device. There is create beauty something else but. Only, apparently something else because as you know, there are no unrelated events in human experience. I've said this before, but beauty at the creation of it. Is a survival mechanism. There was something about making things beautiful. And we sometimes called that art. That has something to do with the creating commonality between human beings so that they don't feel each other. and. Whatever that impulses wherever comes from. It certainly is contained within every human being I've met. Sometimes the opportunity to articulate occurs sometime. It remains dormant for a lifetime. Just get shot at it, but I've been very lucky. I imagined myself as a maker. Of Things! For the age of five. I realized that the to make something was miraculous. And I never stopped by just. Making things up my life whatever they were whatever category you chose. To put them in. Whether they attain the status officials status of art this another story. But that is a set about the But, the desire to make things is a profound human characteristic. That completely agree. was there something that happened at the age of five, or was it a gradual awakening around then that you seem to really key in on a moment, well I have a canned story about it, which is why I feel reluctant to tell it again build as somebody thought sometimes unfilled. But what really happened that this? This was an event. By parents were going out grew up in the Bronx and my parents were going up to some ceremonial occasion left me. At home to be taken care of by my cousin. Who must have been sixteen or seventeen years old, who came to the house? My parents left and he was. Carrying a brown paper Bag, and after we sat down in the living room, he said. We WanNA see a bird. Am I thought immediately that he had a bird in the bag. They said yes, and he reached back pulled out a pencil, and he drew bird on the side of the bag. Anna for one reason. I think it was the first time I ever seen anybody. Draw something that looked like the object depicted. Kids kindergarten drawing things didn't look. A bird but. I suddenly realized that you create life that you could create life with a pencil. And a bow put the bag and it was truly. A miracle in my recollection. Although people always telling me that memory is just the device to justify your president. I really. It was like receiving the Stigmata I suddenly realized that. You could spend your life in life. And I never stopped that at five. Mike Course was set I never deviated I never stopped. aspiring. or working in a way that the. That provided the opportunity to make things that if you did right move people. Which is interesting, too, because you. You grew up in. Essentially Post, depression and then world war two in the Bronx, and there was certainly ample need to create moments that touched people and work that touched people. But. Also I I wonder at that time in our country's history whether and in your mind. Whether doing this was something we said. This is something that I could get paid for and build a career around, or this is just. This is what I need to do. And this is my service. Characteristically I had a very good. Dynamic my mother. was relentlessly approving anything I did know at just thought everything I did was. Let's and by father was worried about making a living. It was very reluctant. To even think that I might choose a life of the arts, 'cause. He wanted made. Pursue alive that would. Basically have some financial security is. A kind of. Simple idea but during the depression the bay prevalent. There was a time when making a living was really tough. He had a dry cleaning store. And I used to deliver orders. They often that consisted of. Carrying full winter coats up six vice upstairs. And getting a nickel tip. So I couldn't imagine that life of Nagas would be much more difficult, but. Any right at the combination. My father's resistant so mother's support. Was the perfect violence because I learned. To overcome resistance. and. I was convinced by my mother that I could do anything. An ideal psychic environment for. Accomplishing something in the world. What leads you to In your mind, you're creating. The first glimpse of the the experiences of undoing this for me I love it. There's something that I just drawn to. versus people are responding to it. Interesting a COUPLA because I began. Using my drawings of a means of ingratiating myself with. other. Young people I mean I would I was the class August. So designated when I was six years old. All through. School I was always the class artists. What's funny idea? And I would do drawings as a kind of service activity for. My friends mostly drawings of naked girls at a time when. We didn't quite know what that was. But I always saw myself as being a IGA. Facilitator of other people's needs in that. Very primitive way I like the fact that I had status at a position at life. and I could also. Be of service. Although I never thought of it as being of service a sham. But I did something that gave me some privilege in that group, but that designation. was useful to me in terms of developing. Bildt sets of WHO I was A. To when when you reach a point where? You decide that this is something that I could potentially do beyond high school. This is something I could build my life around. It sounds like you had already. In your mind made that decision when you were five or six. Then, you have to work out the details. Absolutely. There was no. Doubt in my mind what was going to do? Ever. Had you come to the place of deciding? What that outlet is GonNa? Be A. How do I take this and and I'm I'm the class artist you know this is in my soul it somewhere. I have to make after create after have to make and a half to create beauty this I'm here to do. And a lot of different directions could gone with that. You could have gone fine art. You gone so many different directions. what led you to choose this path that you've been going through your recipe? Questions that are for the answerable, but I would. I would say that it didn't matter to me. As long as adept at categorical station between the arts is nonsensical. Stupid. But useful to society for one reason or another. I might have become a painter might have become address designer. I might have become an architect. All of those possibilities I knew I wanted to make things. And then circumstances began to intervene that interrupt. They decision and opportunities which I was willing to sees regardless of. Whatever the consequences so. I. Have to tell you the story which has very instrumental in that decision. Even, though it's part of by official. Range of stories. It was so profound the I. I have to tell it just order. To Express, how? How twenty seconds can change your life. When I was in junior high school had the opportunity to take the entrance examination to the Bronx Science. which is a great school or The high school basic not another great New York School, neither of which I sufficiently appreciated file. They shaped the city. And these both incredibly important institution. In terms of the York's population and Environment Zone. And the. I have a science teacher who? was very encouraging for me. Enter into science. I was very good sides. And he wasn't. Go to Bronx Science. And the. I was evasive about that because I wanNA tell them that. But the day of the entrance examinations they occur on the same day. I, took the entrance examination that is school of Music and art. and. The next day when I came back to school. He was in the hallway as I was walking out, and he said the. I WANNA. Talk to you I saw. The Jake is up. He's GonNa. Find Out. I took the wrong exam. He's A. Cup to my office. Sit down. As I was sitting at, he said I hit. You took the exam for music or not. And I said Oh. Yes. And then he reached over any reached into his desk, and he pulled out a box of French conduct crayons. Fancy expensive box. And he gave it to me and he said do good work. And the I can't tell that story why crime? Because it was such a profound example of somebody who? An adult? Authority figure. Sophisticated man who was willing to put aside his own. Desire. For something Afghan his own bet. Direction for my life at recognize. Me As a person who had made a decision and he was instead of just simply polishing. He was encouraging it. With this incredibly gracious and generous skip and I never forgot that started. You know I was. Fourteen fifteen years old, but that kind of the thing about it. That always astonishes you your life. Is that monitor couldn't take two minutes. Who's totally transformative about my view of life view of others view of education. I view. Acknowledging the other. the. Very Important Moment for me. It's some. It's interesting to me. Also as a parent because in a bit, everyone says what is apparent one for their child where they want them to be happy, but but above that I think before that we want them to be safe. Sure he though, and then we wanted to be happy and I think so. We have this kind of ongoing conversation in our heads. This may make them happy, but this may make it more likely to make them. You know so. There's this risk that were going and. So it's interesting when you share the story, because I think of that person, young, playing a similar role and saying you know what. I am choosing happiness and whenever we'll have will happen. You learn more and more that everything exists. At once would, it's opposite. The contradictions of Our never ending and the somehow the mediation between. These. Opposites. Of the game of blood. then. I'm asked. I'm sure you are also your teaching. What if I choose wrong? What if I choose wrong? Defy. What if that wasn't the right end? Edison interesting conversation because you know. I think the more I. Think about it in the more I explore life Lesson less had believe there is a wrong choice. You know it's more. It's more important to choose. And just see what happens. While it is at, you could also develop. Your own understanding by saying what choices you made them. You know some people. You know a constantly complaining about their life at little wrong choices. They may Alabama. What would you say to? Stop making those stupid choices I mean. I acknowledge that you make stupid choices and Ben see if you want to do something about, maybe don't. In evidently you don't need so. Be satisfied in your stupid chosen I'm. I mean without being arrogant about it, but you realize that the. The first step is always. In! The Buddhist says took knowledge what is? and. It's very hard to do. It's very hard to do. It is but deadly. Drawing, attentiveness? Is One of the ways you do that I made the great. Benefit. Of Drawing for instance. Is that when you look at something. You see it for the first time. And you could spend your life. Without ever seeing anything. What if you could actually do good for the world by making a purchase with your debit card? Every time you swipe your card? A tree was planted. What if you were rewarded with up to ten percent cashback every time you bought something that helped people or the environment? There's a bangle. Turn it. That's making that happen. It's called aspiration within aspirations. Spend and save cash management account. You can do better financially while creating a better future for the planet, see the planet and people impact scores of businesses like Amazon starbucks and Ebay so. So you know the impact of your purchases, and you can round up your change to plant a tree every time you shop with your Debit Card, save on ATM fees with zero fees. At over fifty five thousand ATM's Save Money Save the planet to open your aspirations spend and save cash management account text good to sixty four thousand. Do it now for your future. Open your aspiration, spend and save account by texting good to sixty four thousand. That's good to sixty four thousand for terms and conditions to aspiration dot com, slash terms. So in a past life, the lawyer I learned how important it was to be really precise with language and grammar. There was so much writing on every word. 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When you sign up at grammar dot com slash good life at twenty percent of Gramley premium at Gramley dot com slash good life, g. r. a. m. M. A. R. L. Y., dot, com slash, or just click the link and the show notes now. It's interesting that as as You're sharing this in the background. We're starting to hear the voices of children. Playing outside of this. Is the perfect complement like this topic because. What better representation of here and seeing what's in front of you when you're this big and if we could carry that feller but for. So many people I feel like it. Some way we lose a we do and you'll have to. Do I I can sound as though I. I know the answer I don't know the answer anything aircraft to constantly. Be tended to what you deflect than life, and what you don't pay attention to all the things you. Can't see an all preconceptions that you do have about everyday. Those preconceptions basically. Blur Vision. It's very hard to see. What's in front of you? That I I remember hearing once. told the that I couldn't draw. The response that it's not that you can't draw. It's that you can't see. Everyone can draw like it's about. Can you actually see what's in front of you rather than seeing? The image that has already been planted in your mind about what it's hosts still a flood. It's true. I mean A. It's a shame, but educationally been teaching for. An awfully long time and Because of. The technology, the computer and so on and the concern to Bassett programs and saw that this most fundamental. Act of anyone in and out of the arts is. The desire to understand what they're looking at. A which involves looking seeing? The brain transformation. The neurological path that moves from the brain to the had I mean. Someone said the hands. A thinking instrument. Have Book drawing his thinking and. That has been omitted from Art Education In most places, not both places. At a great loss to understanding even when you manage the technological. Needs that you have. To. Produce. Thanks for the society. The idea of drawing is a way of developing your ability. To think. Doesn't seem to be. Sufficiently conclusive. It so interesting for me also as a writer. For a long time, I would do on my writing on a computer. And then it would hit a point where I just tended to step out and started taking a little mole skin book with me. And I would just sit somewhere in a park that we go to a bar to sit and just right Monahan at. First Mahan to eight because. I really lost the muscles to be able to actually. And then. What start to realize was that? That that changes actually really chains my output. The what Kate? What channel through me onto the page when I was writing by hand? was very different creatively. Then what came to my interest looper? And that's that's. Really up slightly, but everything changes everything had. No Independent, the bent so mean. I use a computer every day. Now I love the computer. but I never touched. Since I have somebody at my side by make a big make sense. But I also use the computer. right down to a series of prints for show, but I have next year I use a computer like a lithographic press I spent years doing photography. And I just think of the computer as a press that operates at a different speed Because when you do lithographs, you have to do a drawing. Chit Prepare Stone transferred this stone. Print the proof the proof that so all of which will take you a day at an order to get five different color proofs that it'll take you to do print I can do. Oh that day on the computer by simply being able to. Determine what color Gozo color night on the computer itself rather than end the old technology, but if I did DULBECCO technology, the computer be useless to me. So it's a bit. The Interaction Ital- so the need for. Speed is a separate issue entire layer of because. In the case of work that you do on the computer, speed is a factor because it's an economic factor. But the world of art speed is. Nice though. You have two. Very different objectives slow. That I mean it's interesting. I I recently. There's a letter press shop out in Brooklyn and I recently went out there, and and took a class to learn how to use these. Let presses that they had to go and find from the fifties and bring in. They had like really good machines. and. There something so. When you sit there, and you choose the paper and you laid the blocks you know, ink the roller and the aegisliving. You would ruin you. Know that up and you feel it. It's it's such a different. Process and is so you You feel it so differently and so dearly it's it's visceral. Deep thing that's I could spend all day. Writing are trading on the computer. I won't get that the you know, so it's. It's an amazing thing to to move back to. To these ways to make. The virtual world has created a very different. Kind of. Nervous system for people who who spent their life. In that world? And it produces a different sense of appropriateness of time of morality. Ethics. Behavior. I was I cited this before, but I was at dinner with my wife We sat down next to a table. With four people each had cell phones, and they were all talking to somebody outside the restaurant accounts nursing. What what's going on there, I mean. Why would you be talking to somebody outside the restaurant at not even looking at the people at your table? And when did that become appropriate? If you were on the telephone for a meal. With for different people, talking at the forum is also even when I was growing up right. Would be. Incomprehensible may not only is comprehensible bow. It's unavoidable van. if the phone rang and the family was having dinner, you didn't pick up the phone, right? So. What shifted that perception of? What's the right thing to do and it's? It's something really weird about it adding. Who are least people in the streets? Talking to were in the middle of traffic asset trying to cross? What is it that makes every conversation so urgent that it can't wait delay stop. The gross. Give it and I, but I think what I I. Agree I think what the technology does on the one hand It flattens the world, which is wonderful I can talk to people in different continents of she vent. It opens up this cultural divide, but at the same time. It often disconnects us from the people at the dinner table. Right in front of us. and. You people constantly on. Is that enough to me might be the biggest creative. The biggest ideas don't come to me when I'm working hard getting them become. Step away from the work. You know when I'm in when I'm in the woods when I'm just when they create pauses day, and they get concerned because we're filling every possible pause with. Connecting and what is that GonNa, do to what we're capable of trading in the wall. What. We don't know the the thing. We don't understand you'd never know. Fishing water does notes water. We don't know what this is doing to the inside the human behavior. Any of it. We know it's changing and we know it'll be a profound change at will be what it was, but we don't know what the nature bed will finally be. It probably have some benefits and significant drawbacks, but it is just emerging A. you're creating a new. Kind of person. I agree and literally rewiring the brain. I'm curious when you When you look at the work that you're creating. And when you when you start to make decisions. About what am I going to do my not going to do? What what's important to you? About. What you choose to work on what is sort of the qualities that that drill you to work that light you up and say this is something. I WANNA I WANNA do be involved in. A. Little more. Specific. I mean so if somebody came with the project. You're you're? You're busy person. You've got limited time And you need to say yes or no. by curiosity is in your head. What is it about is about a project? Is it a product or work, or is it the team or the individuals or the opportunity for you to explore something just yourself that may not be related even to. Its dialectic I don't think it's one thing. I don't think everyone is like why. This person like this this and that but I don't like this this. Say the. Question of human defection is so complicated. Why do you like some? People don't like other people. Go into a room when you say yes. Yes, yes, no, no, no, if you've already made up your mind. Who you can get along with you can't. Sorted in my book of Principles so my ten principles of work. The first one is which worked with people you like and that simple. Really simple, minded, but fundamentally profound. You can't. And this is not entirely true. You can't work with people you don't like sometimes. There's a kind of dislike that urges you to overcome your. Own. Limitations comes from certain extent. I would say that now getting work. What was a combination of factors one as a? First thing is if the work is harmful. I don't do it. I mean do no harm is. I think the principle that does not only apply to the medical profession. which is say to urge people to do what is harmful to them, is something that I don't feel comfortable doing. the other thing is whether the there's really an opportunity to make something good out of it as opposed to fulfilling tasks, professional life is very often at the. To artistic life, because in professional life, you basically repeat what you already know. Your preacher previous successes. Marketing Marketing is the enemy of art because it is always based on the past. But the art is always based on the future, but it's very offer based on transgressions so. When you do something that basically is guaranteed to succeed. You are basically closing the possibility for discovery so. There's that and I do Josh. Fuel A. Purely for professional reasons because they know how to do certain things that will be effective. It will work in that. Serves me as a professional. And then I do jobs or I don't know what I'm doing. Projects where I don't know what I'm doing. I'm doing that now for. A show that I'm going to have. In Cincinnati next year. I decided to do a series of landscape prints. And I'm doing them on the computer. Impart and thinking drawings. And then subjecting them to the computer. To See if I could produce something that doesn't look as though was generated by the computer. 'cause you computers dangerous. Because it shapes your capacity to descend. What's possible? Computer is is like a apparently submissive. Servant. That turns, out to be a subversive. Ultimately gained control of your mind. The computer is such a powerful is from him that it it divides after what what is possible for you. And what is possible is? Within the computers capacity, and while it seems at the beginning like this incredibly gifted. And talented service, it actually has a very limited. Intelligence. The brain is so much faster. Than the computer but. The computer's insisted about what it's good at and before you know it, it's it's like big. Somebody has bad habits. You sort of fall into the bad habits, and it begins to dominate the wave. Of what is possible? So now because I never touched the abuser, I'm taking advantage of it. By doing things that are uncomfortable for to do. You have to give me more. Feeding it like it were a big breasts instead of. Advanced Electronic Instrument. Adults fascinating, so it's essentially. Reversed bit of role reversal they're. Owning it instead of being on by. When you think about how people are being trained. There's been a lot of really interesting. PUSHBACK is day is against or at school formal art education. As somebody, who's an artist designer and a teacher, I'm curious what your feelings are hurt were be Reeburg Push Burger buskers, meaning people saying it's it's not necessary. Adjectives yeah, that sort of formal art education that for what purpose for in order to become. Good at your craft become good enough so that you can build a living doing it. You have to separate baking a living. Which is what activity? And what that everybody has to face? With enlarging one's understanding of the world? And also providing. And instrumentality for people to have as I, said earlier, a common purpose in a sense Transformation. I went up to the bargain. Library the other day. Having a show. Old. It's called bastard drives. Master drawings any case. TASTIC ISOS as in the bad never seen A. Pencil watercolour landscape. and. I was transformed by look. My world was enlarged. At this ancient age. I'm still. Capable. Of astonishment of feeling my God. I'd never had this experience before. And that is what they are. Provide the sense of enlargement and the sense that. You have a cup at the end of your understanding. either yourself or the thanks. So That's why I was invented. The Nets Swipe practitioners who have. Occasionally expensive making such objects. Feel that they are part of a larger. Issue of the immediate context of their life I mean they're part of human history. thinking. For any reason friend had recently died. It's nice feel. That, you left something behind. When you? which is fascinating because? Some forty seven and Married have a daughter. And It's interesting that I find myself now. Thinking about legacy. Is still believe that had many decades left to create were sure, but it's creeping into my everyday actual clients. And it's a little bit surprising in a non why. Don't I, mean I? Don't necessarily up the big of his legacy that sort of gives. Right overtone to it and rabbit, but the is. Were again right of doing good work. There's something about that. The simplicity abet statement. The. I think I'm not sure what was said. Loving work. That's all the res-. That's pretty much true. Urinating on that. I need to spend more time on that. That's interesting. So, In the name of this project is the good life project. And it's an exploration of you know. Do we know what the pieces are, and and one of the questions that always ask when I when I have an opportunity to sit down so like in in your experience when I offer the term to live a good life. What comes up a certificate blip? Well first of all significant to whom. I mean If you thinking in terms of the history of the world, that's what being everything in terms of family. That managed to grow up and support itself Fed. Live a full life at do no harm. Every life is significant. Sub More than a their heraldic figures in history. Chosen need the real heroism or real importance or for some illusion of. Status. I was thinking about the pope. A unexpected. Modesty. who am I to? Condemn of Human Bay. About Gay, people. And I was thinking. Yeah, but that's. Who I you the condemn anybody else. We elevate. These people to heroic roles or significant roles. Just another guy. Living tried to make sense. Getting older die. That's I mean we're all disabled. So, but it was shocking to hear that coming from someone who has been. Anointed. With this. False. A logistic. that. This person somehow is more knowing that every other human being. I'm sorry. It's a self serving delusion, but obviously useful, because persists so much. Curious do. Do see good life and a significant life as one in the same. I A very suspicious of some words like that. BILL SO What they linked to I, guess feel about that the. You can't take anything at face value. have to go beyond the superficiality of existing belief. and. By favorite quote is certainty is closing of the mind. And so. I don't know what a good life is a good life. For me, certainly has has been The things that I think. A report friendships have people love. Sidney, a marriage that has endured And the continues to Adore Teaching Sharon during for up. Well over half a century and the. Feeling that. Whatever you? Know has the possibly big transmitted. Shared! Outside of that, I would know how to. Define, good life. As you know, some people seem to be. Village to some men heroes to another I meant. Amid? What's so interesting to me as I've asked this question now? over a year into this exploration. and. Initially I would have guessed that after about. Ten eleven twelve conversations. It'd be a lot of repetition There hasn't been host which is, it's been fascinating to me, said the lenses so unique to everybody. What is the most recurring idea though? Service. Is In various ways regard are not only for myself. Yeah, gratitude! In various under by various names so. There are two things that recur. In different ways different ways. Well, What my certainly in terms of gratitude I feel dominantly grateful for the life I had led the IPAD. extraordinarily. Easy Life I would say. I I benefit enormously from the generosity about this at I've been able to. Live well and do what I aspire to do. Make some things that I think are useful. That you're you have to be grateful. Whatnot especially when you realize the amount of. Pain and suffering that. The world is Philip. A completely. I think you so much for this commerce over will ungrateful to you for your time and your Royston. Your our hope. Serious goes well. Thank you. It? Thank you so much for listening and thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links. We have included intraday show notes, and while you're at. If you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at sparky type DOT COM, that's S. P.. A. R. K. E., T. Y.. Y. P. dot com or just click the link in the shadows, and of course. If you haven't already done, so be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening Apps, so you never miss an episode and then share share the love. If there's something that you've heard in this episode that you would love to turn into a conversation, share it with people and have that conversation, because when ideas become conversations that lead to action. That's when real change takes hold see you next time.

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