Amanpour: Richard Hatchett, Deborah Peterson Small, Khalil Gibran Muhammad and Janet Napolitano
We expect a lot from our home is where we live our lives where memories are made where we rest and recharge work and play its home at home advisor committed to keeping yours up and running whether you need to repair and overloaded appliance or bill that summer backyard retreat use the homeadvisor APP to find a local pro. We'll get the job done right whatever you need, big or small. They'll do everything to fix your everything. Download the HOMEADVISOR APP and get started today. Hello everyone and welcome to enforce. Here's what's coming up. Is America back to square one with corona virus surging some states shut shutdown again I ask epidemic expert Richard Hatchet about the race for vaccine, and put it silence before politics plus the biggest jailer in the world we look at the mass incarceration of blacks in the United States, and the failure of the thirteenth amendment to really outlaw slavery. Then this is a public health crisis. It should not be a partisan health crisis. Now reopening school becomes a partisan political battleground, outgoing president of the University of California, Janet Napolitano joins our Walter Isaacson. Welcome to the program everyone I'm preceding poor working from home in London as Europe's kickstart its economy out of lockdown amid a serious test and trace program parts of the United. States are in reverse gear, shutting down again with a vicious surge in record numbers of corona virus cases across the country, some states like California, a reimposing restrictions that had been lifted just a few weeks ago, and at least half the states of putting a hold on reopening businesses, America's chief infectious disease expert Dr Anthony Fauci. She warns that the nation's public health care is in tatters. He says and doctors a quote building the plane while they are flying it and the numbers don't lie as America's still tops the world. World in the number of confirmed cases and deaths, so finding a vaccine gets more and more urgent, but just how close or how far are we from getting one? My first guest is Dr. Richard Hatchet he served as an adviser on pandemics, presidents George W, Bush, and Barack Obama and he's now. CEO of the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations Sepe which has nine vaccines in development right now, and he's joining us now from Surrey in England so Dr. hatchet welcome back to the program. The last time we had you on was a couple of months ago and you were talking about the timeframe for a vaccine, and you were saying potentially twelve to eighteen months. Where are we now any closer? It was. It was a couple months ago, so we have we are going to start up. I chance Nice Nice to be back on the show. We are beginning to see early data from from some of the early clinical studies and I would say the data that we're seeing while it's limited is is not discouraging it. It's it's even encouraging on, so we were not running into any major hurdles yet a. we have a long way to go. When I made that prediction you know really the prediction is that we hope to have vaccines that are becoming more broadly available in the first half of next year and I would say that still what we're as are informed for. So I'm going to get more detail on the vaccine from you but I i. want to raise with you. The obvious problems which are behavioral. In the United States and some other parts of the world, and the head of the WHO Dr Doctor. Had this to say about what's going on around the world right now? Just take a listen. Let me be blunt. Too! Many countries are headed in the wrong direction. The virus remains public enemy number one. Of many governments and people do not reflect of this. The only aim of the virus is to find people to infect. Mixed messages from leaders are undermining the most critical ingredient of any response. So don't add shape. You are also a behavioral expert. I mean you came up with helped pioneer, the idea of social distancing as a necessary element of pandemic reaction, so we have issues with social distancing and rules on that all sorts of mixed messages. We have issues with mosques, all sorts of mixed messages. Even this government here in the UK is saying they're going to be mandatory in shops in stores on July twenty fourth, I mean pick that date out of the air, and then only the the customers will be having to wear them, not the not the stuff. Just from your expertise, describe how this mixed messaging is potentially a problem as we see this surge of cases. Anytime you have mixed messaging, it can produce. Confusion obviously, so we do want to be very clear and our guidance to the public about the steps that they can take to protect themselves to protect their family members, and and to protect other members of their community, and I think the the underlying idea behind social distancing measures behind the idea of wearing masks behind the idea of you know good, good, personal hygiene and you know is is that? that. We are all in this together. And that the behavioral choices that individuals mate and groups make have a huge impact on disease, transmission and people need to understand that while we don't have definitive treatments or Bec seems these are the kinds of measures that were all going to have to adopt if we are going to suppress transmission and keep the rates of disease, and of course, keep the rights of debt. Down as low as we possibly can. So, again I just wanted to refer to faucher. Who is you know and as we all now know seems to be in a some kind of battle of credibility with the White House, and he's using other avenues to get very serious and important messages across. Leslie he seems not to have briefed the president by his own admission. For two months, although parenting in touch with the vice president's task force, but here's what he said just now a misstep in communicating to the public, the benefits of mosque, wearing early on has hurt his credibility as a public health tool. Do. You agree with that I. Would you urge people to just just do it now? In the absence of treatment and I'm vaccines. Or absolutely where I think the emerging data is highly supportive of the idea that if communities adopt mask wearing as general behavior. Disease transmission goes down and whether that's because the disease. The mask is preventing infected people from. Releasing, releasing covid nineteen into the air whether it protects people whether it reminds people that they are in the midst of a pandemic or all of those things together, which is probably the case a mess wearing clearly provides benefits to communities that are facing outbreaks so I would urge people to adopt mass wearing as as a behavior that we're just going to all have to. Get used to during this period when we don't at vaccines I I. Would I would also urged people to adopt other perhaps protective behaviors. I think many people have A. Obviously. Everybody has been eager to come out of lockdown. Does! This has been an extremely difficult period for many people. It's economically challenging. It's isolating socially and people have been hungry to emerge from lot down. In a sensible way, we have to remember that the virus is still with us. We can look at the United States where it's very clear that many states emerged from down too early before they were ready to control our transmission. And now we're seeing dramatically escalating rates of a disease transmission. They're seeing escalating rates, hospitalizations and a few states are even beginning to see. Rises in the death rate and I think we can anticipate that this members are going to get probably a lot worse before they get better and those of us in other. Settings, you know we should. We have made huge sacrifices to achieve the games that we have achieved. We need to keep disease transmission. Low scientists are working as hard as they possibly can to develop treatments. TO DEVELOP VACCINES Vaccines are on the way, but they are some ways, and we need to keep this epidemic under control until we can distribute more probably. So you've just mentioned, distribute again. We don't even have a vaccine and you've all been very clear about the length of time. It could take there. Are you know dozens in in trials right now? Some in human trials in fact. The question of course is also. Let's say you find him. They're all sorts of issues that are also very very closely connected so dimond and distribution and manufacturing. What are the most most difficult hurdles once? You actually have a vaccine. That, you're most worried about in the immediate instance. I think overall my my biggest concern, and this has been a concern from the very beginning is that that seems when they become available will initially be available in short supply of we really don't see a scenario in twenty twenty one where the supply of vaccine exceeds the global demand, and we are developing bent scenes for one reason to end the pandemic and to end independent. We need to use that scare source very carefully. We need to get it to the people who were at greatest risk index, ending the pandemic, initially I think will mean reducing rates of suffering and death, and that means getting the vaccine to the people at greatest risk, it means getting vaccine to healthcare workers, getting vaccine to the elderly and getting that seemed to people with conditions that put them at great risk, and that must occur globally if we're going to bring the pandemic under control, my concern is that. Individual countries have obligation to their own populations and left to their own devices. They will try to secure vaccine or their own populations end. My concern is that the limited supply of vaccine could be quartered I just a few countries that that essentially over by at seen for their populations, leading to misallocation of vaccine, leading actually to the perpetuation of the pandemic and leading to the prolongation of suffering increase debt, and and Prolong Gatien of the economic disruption that depend Democ is causing, and we've been working really hard to try to come up with now turned it. Well let me just play what Bill Gates. Obviously who's also involved with you? Obviously has has right in there with the vaccine development. This is what he said on Saturday about what you're just talking about about the concerns you've just raised. If we. Let, drugs and vaccines go to the highest bidders instead of to the people in the places where they're most needed. We'll have a longer more injust deadlier pandemic. Leaders to make these hard decisions about distributing based on equity, not just on market-driven factors. So Doug Hatchet. You almost raised an issue of hoarding vaccines that individual governments could just horde them and stockpile them for their own for their own citizens. You just heard a Bill Gates. Talk about leaders to make this an equitable and fed distribution. I mean if you if you could organize the distribution, what would you say absolutely has to happen? Well, I think that countries need to come together up. There have been a lot of people who've talked about betzeen nationalism, which leads to the kind of hoarding and the misallocation that we've just been talking about leads to the lack of equity that Mr Gates just was describing. There's an alternative to that. And that's that scene multi-lateralism, and right now we are actively engaged with our partners at who, and at Gabby the vaccine alliance to develop a mechanism to allow countries to work together to accelerate vaccine development and to to speed vaccine, production and delivery, and to ensure the vaccine is delivered globally in inequitable fashion, which is also the fashion will lead to it being distributed to the people who need it most, which means ending the pandemic as possible, and and we call this effort. This is under. Something called the access to covid nineteen tools. which has the acronym at the accelerator as a pillar under it focused on back scenes that we call Kovacs and I'd like to. Get. The name out Kovacs is the effort to promote vaccine multi-lateralism countries sharing risk. In vaccine development, sharing the cost of speeding the production in the delivery of vaccine, and agreeing mutually to share that vaccine equitably so that we get it to the people who need it most as fast as we possibly can with the goal, actually a bringing the acute phase of the pandemic to an end by the end of two thousand and twenty one. So. Let's say all that is well and good great intentions than perfect world you'll have the vaccine, and then you want to come and distribute it and get people to actually agree to take it now. Listen to Dr Anthony Fouled. She's warning. We have to make sure we engage the community as we're doing now to get community people to help us for people to understand that we are doing everything we can to show that it's safe, and that is effective, and it's for the good of them as individuals and in society to take the vaccine, there is a general anti-science anti authority anti vaccine feeling among some people in this country, an alarmingly large percentage of people relatively speaking. So Hatchet. This is obviously the antibiotics. People worried about taking a vaccine that they might think is being rushed. The doesn't have all the normal checks and balances of trials and FDA approval and look at the figures. Poll suggests in the United States. Maybe only half to two thirds would take the vaccine in Europe of a very very trustworthy poll found the between ten and twenty. Two percent of people don't trust that vaccines are safe in France a third of people disagree that vaccines are safe in eastern Europe the number is as high as fifty percent, so you need ninety five percent vaccine, take up for it to actually make a difference in community health. How worried are you about that problem if you if you if you come to it? Well, I don't think you need ninety five percents uptake for the vaccine to play a critical role in ending the acute phase of the pandemic. The what's called herd immunity Russia, this is when the threshold a immunity in a population that is required to essentially bring the epidemic under control by itself is estimated to probably be between sixty and seventy percent for covid nineteen, so you don't need ninety five percent uptick, but I think the problem. The doctor FAO cheat was describing, which is a distrust in governments and distrust of that scenes that that is a very real problem and I think the challenge that we face right now. Pe a vaccine is rapidly as we can. Certainly plays into the fears that some people have about. Vaccine Safety and I think what we need to do. Is. Be Very forceful in reassuring people dead in speeding vaccine development we are. Not Willing to take risks on demonstrating the vaccines work or demonstrating that they are safe we are willing to take risks financially and its financial risks that we take allow us to speed up the development pretty dramatically. And those are risk. We should be willing to take, but we cannot take risks in developing vaccines or putting out vaccines that are unsafe and we have to monitor the vaccine's both during clinical process, but also is as we roll them out to large numbers of people because we can anticipate that. You know if if a very large number of people receive that seem particularly people in the highest squibb's people with underlying you know heart, problems or hypertension or diabetes or over the age of sixty five. You know there may be chance events that occur where somebody receives vaccine and has a heart attack. You know within a few days because we're giving. To lots and lots of people in, and we need to be able to describe those risks. We need to be able to describe the kinds of rates of these of these bad outcomes that we might expect normally even in populations that don't receive that seem an and we need to be able to have been a very open dialogue with the public about what we are doing, and all the precautions that we're taking to ensure that the vaccines are infect safe and they do work. All right Dr Richard Hatch Hatchet. That is a big challenge, because of course, science and politics all mixed up and it's a very serious problem right now. Thank you for joining us now. The other pandemic of course ravaging the United States is racism viewership for ever do Van as Twenty Sixteen documentary thirteenth is surging again. It shows how the thirteen th amendment of the US Constitution outlawed slavery over one hundred and fifty years ago, but essentially permitted to continue via the side door of mass incarceration now to discuss the implications of this today I'm joined by two guests who both featured in the documentary attorney Debra. Debra small is the founder of break the chains, an organization that looks at drug policy reform and she's joining us from San Francisco and historian and Harvard Professor Khaleel. Mohammed is also joining us from New Jersey welcome to you. Both listened, may I just start by reading the relevant part of the thirteen th amendment and get you to explain why it has been such a such a sort of a misnomer, so it says in part neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the Party shall have been Julie convicted shall exist within the united, states or any place subject to the jurisdiction. A highly Mohammed I had never understood that phrase, and how it perverted, in fact, the cause of banning slavery in the United States where the thirteenth amendment as you just read as almost universally been understood as the legislation that fundamentally ended two hundred and fifty years of slavery. And therefore the slavery loophole, which is the clause for Polish whereas crime. Has, never really gotten the amount of scholarly. Or legal attention that it deserved, but in fact it was active. They literally overnight within months of the end of the civil war, the former confederate states, as they were going through a process of reconstruction turn to new criminal statutes in order to Rian sleigh that population of African Americans and so it's had incredible utility in the American political economy of both in the south and across the nation. So. Let me then turn to Debra Peterson small. Why do you think that language was was was was used there and continues to this day. Well I. Think the thing that we have to remember essentially is that racism is a product in support of capitalism, and even though and that slavery was basically a capitalist enterprise, and so from the very beginning of the period, after which black people were legally no longer enslaved, the same economic forces will looking for ways to continue to profit from free labor, and so this exception in the in the statute regarding the ability to punish person for conviction of a crime created the perfect opportunity, and I think it's important to remember that the kinds of crimes that black people were being locked up for and convicted of with things like vacancy like Um, stealing a pig like doing basic kind of Crimes or Mr Bean misdemeanor offenses, many of the same kinds of things that are currently being used by our president, dusty complex to support and car survey Shen, so you know you use that term, and clearly the statistics are shocking. Of course, the United States has the highest rate of incarceration than any nation around the world there are more than two million Americans in prison currently and according to the statistics statistics, black men have a one in three chance of being incarcerated over the course of their lifetime. Whereas Latino, men have a one in six chance and white men have a one in seventeen John's. How did we actually get to this stage? Let's just take black men the black population if I'm not mistaken, is about twelve percent of the entire US population, and let's and yet you have this complete imbalance in in the imprisonment and incarceration rate. Professor Mohammed. How did it get to this point? Whatever's right that the business of the nation and feeling and export economy that was helping to literally build the world America by nineteen thirteen was the world's largest manufacturer had the kind of footprint. The China has today with regard to manufacturing and well, and so the harnessing of black Labor was always going to continue with regard to the end of slavery, but the question of mass incarceration is a fascinating one in part because what we see happen in the south in. In. The decades following the end of the war into the early twentieth century was not mass incarceration It might be better described as masks, criminalization, and the entire point of criminalising African Americans was to use the power of the state as a form of coercion or their second class citizenship to make sure that they would work for white landowners in the south or work for white manufacturers in the north under unfair labor conditions that they would have little economic bargaining power. By the threat of arrest or punishment, they would be absolutely subject to social and racial control, and that lasted right up until about the nineteen seventies when their labor power was not as necessary, they became what economists call redundant, and then black men met the forces of mass incarceration that thirteen so eloquently describes. And Deborah small you. You've done a lot of work on on the on the war on drugs, essentially which which exponentially increased the prison population. Can you explain how that when it came in? Just as I said, you know, filled the jails more more more. So I think we have to remember that. From the very beginning of drug prohibition, the drugs that we chose to criminalise and the narrative around them was always highly racialist, so opium was made illegal in response or specifically, as a method of controlling the Chinese population in the West. Cocaine was very early on associated with black people and violence. The fact that we use the word marijuana as opposed to cannabis. Cannabis is directly related to the history of using it against lat next populations, and on the modern war on drugs, which started officially under president, Nixon his aides have admitted that one of the main motivations behind launching a drug war was to have a method to be able to use law enforcement against the Anti. War Movement, and against the Black Liberation Movement and so the drug war was a direct response to. To the events around the civil rights movement, and the increasing demand of black people, not just for the end of basic racial discrimination, but for Economic Justice and political justice, and that movement as we know, was decidedly crushed through the force of the state, and then once those initial leaders were neutralized primarily through death, but also through incarceration, the drug war served as a method of continuing to target those populations and. And to have wide public support, because the public had already bought into the narrative that drugs were associated with minority communities, particularly black and Brown communities, and that's directly contributed not just mass incarceration, but as Professor Mohammad, said Mass Criminalization and the increasing militarization of the police who now see themselves as warriors in this drug war, and the people that thereafter are the very same people that they've supposed to be protecting. So can I ask Professor Mohamed because explain to us then how contemporary policing has roots in in the slave patrols of the pre-civil civil war. Well. You know it's it's. It's not so direct align as We might describe in context like this, but if we think of it in the biggest sense, policing has always been about controlling essential workers in the world by enlarge, but most especially in American society, so when we go back to the seventeenth century, and we look at the point of slave patrols. The very point was to make sure that the enslaved population which stay put on those stations that they would not engage insurrection that they would not steal themselves. They were in back property, so to actually take one's own self. A to to freedom was a form of a felony theft. and. So policing as America has always known, it has focused most explicitly on the least powerful the most vulnerable and those who have been tasked with the most essential jobs in this country to literally keep the economy going and so from slavery to freedom to the past several decades. It's African. Americans and others in Brown communities as well have been subjected to forms of surveillance and control over their class position in the American economy. What I want to talk a little bit more about the economy, because it's kind of shocking, the way thirteenth the documentary lays it out, and you know given the direct link between slavery and mass incarceration and involuntarily involuntary prison labor, which is played an enormous economic role similar as many say to slavery pre civil war. Can you just give us an example or some of the ways in which prison labor is used in the economic sphere? Well today, prison labor is a mostly state run system, meaning that the vast majority of people incarcerated in prisons are in public facilities paid with public dollars of the footprint of privately run prisons mostly runs through the federal system, and the mostly pertains to people being detained for violations of immigration law, so the point of harnessing the Labor power people incarcerated. is to keep taxes low in states in other words to pay people who are being punished by losing their liberty a dollar a day. Do Things at state. State, workers public employees would otherwise do or would be outsourced to private companies. There is also a small amount of people today who work for private corporations. They've been subcontracted by the state to private industry for the purpose, not unlike what was happening and the Jim Crow period of comic leasees working for US steel for example in Alabama, so our our system is mostly committed to spending about eighty billion dollars in punishment of which a significant portion of that either alleviates the cost of incarceration for the state by having. Incarcerated people do the work or a gets receipts or revenue from private corporations for a small number of people who work for private industry. Deborah I WANNA. Ask You because you know. A lot of your focus is on the war on drugs, and you talked about the story and the narrative and obviously a lot of that. Comes to public view via television via culture and David Simon who wrote the wire has spoken a lot about the war on drugs, and how it's contributed to this situation. Just WanNa. Play something that he said to me about this and get you to react afterwards. I know I sound like a broken record, but we have to end the drug war. We have to end the prohibition against drugs. It has become an overlay or the worst kind of police successes. It has taught generations of police officers, and it's it's. It's happened geometrically in some respects because we continue to militarize. And now the sergeants and lieutenants who learn how to do bad, we work. One generation ago, they're trading the new guys coming in how to do bad police work. We have to stop that. So so Def respond to issues there one the the the state of mind of the police, and to the idea of of just stopping this war on drugs and reducing the the incarceration rate that way. People are going to say well. Yeah, you say that this percentage is going to jail. Maybe they commit the most crimes. Can you address that issue first? And and then the issue of you know if all of this space was was liberated, and the money was liberated. Where where am I to be able to be redirected, too? So I. Think it's important for us to really think about the fact that as a country we've made prosecuting the drug war. The priority for police departments across the country and one of the things that that means is that many or communities especially poor black brow communities suffer the phenomenon of both over policed in underpoliced. They're over policed FA drugs there under police. Violent crimes like homicides rapes that don't get solved and don't get. Tested because the police took busy going after drugs I think it's important to note that in twenty eighteen then will one point six million drug arrests in the United States but eighty seven percent of those arrests were for possession, which means that they will for small amounts of drugs. There were six hundred sixty three thousand arrests for marijuana. Ninety two percent of those were for possession, so went to voting a tremendous amount of resources both police, resources and Correction sources in addressing crimes that aren't even worth the amount of money that it costs us to lock people up where we're literally keeping people in jails and prisons for crimes that theoretically amount to a few hundred dollars on the street, and having their lives ruined forever, and whether or not a person goes to jail for joy, crime or the prison, having a drug conviction can affect your access to employment to housing to education to all types of benefits. And why is it that we're doing that? Why are we not using our police resources to go after the people who are despoiling? despoiling our environment ruining our economy, you know committing financial crimes even with When we think about drug dealers, nobody thinks about banks, and yet you cannot have a successful drug operation without having bankers to launder the money almost every major American Bank has pled guilty in one form or another one time or another to having laundered drug money, but they haven't been prosecuted. They've been able to pay a little money in fines and going about their business. At the same time. We have people languishing in prison to ten twelve twenty years for having so small amounts of cocaine or heroin. And finally the Muhammed Professor Muhammad. Are you hopeful now that this whole issue police brutality, obviously in the wake of the killing of George Floyd and so many others. has become such a big political issue with at least sixty seven percent of the population, supporting the black lives matter movement. Do you think from all the you studied given that you've written about this going back at least since? Nine, hundred nineteen, which was one of the the first of papers on on on race and police Amalfi Malfeasance. You think things could change now. Well I, I. Hope. but I also have to be realistic, and so my job is to make sure that the public has all the information. It needs to be wise and intentional about what didn't happen in the past, and therefore to make what's possible in our president for different future. There's no need to speculate about how police reform itself is going to get us there because police reforms have. Have failed or hundred ears, asking police to change their behaviors like asking the fossil fuel industry to solve our climate change problem so my job like devas job and the media in general to make sure that the public has everything they need in front of them to learn from the past so that we can actually chart an effective future for change. Thank you for joining us. Think about your home for a moment. It's where life happens. It's where you build a treehouse or try that new recipe. It's where you rest and recharge work and play. You expect a lot out of it, and that's why homeadvisor is committed to keeping your home up and running no matter what they match you with the best pros in your area. Pros who can get your home projects done right from unexpected jobs. Jobs like appliance repairs clogged gutters leaky faucets to projects. You actually look forward to like creating your very own backyard, summer retreat or getting that new pool installed whatever it is, they're here to help and the homeadvisor. APP makes it easy. Use It to book and pay for more than one hundred projects with just a few taps, plus if you're looking for some local inspiration, you can see trending tasks in your neighborhood. So whether you need a last minute fix routine home, maintenance or an exciting new upgrade home adviser is here ready to do everything to make sure everything download the home advisor App and get started today. Now to corona virus, and the battles to reopen schools and universities, few have more experience with this dilemma than our next guest. Janet Napolitano. She was the first female president of California's sprawling public. System! She was also the first female secretary of Homeland Security under President Obama. Among other things dealing with the outbreak of the H One n one swine flu, she talks to our Walter. is about what her university is doing to help students at this time and what the White House doing to save American lives. Thank you. John and Janet Napolitano welcome to the show. Thank you Walter congratulations on a seven-year on so and you're leaving in a very difficult moment. Tell me how the changing situation this week on current virus is affecting how going to reopen the University of California's ten campuses. So. We're actually reimagining how we're going to reopen. Two of our campuses open in August that's Mercer Said and Berkeley the others. Don't open until the end of September so. They have a bit more time, but for Berkeley and merced said were really having to go back and. Revisit the density of the dorms. that will be safe. revisit the number and types of classes that can be offered in person. I think the bulk of the academic program. will be online by by necessity, but We still want to have some in person classes to the extent that we can do so safely, so we had some initial plans in the beginning of July, the resurgence happens, and you have to be agile and flexible in these circumstances, so we're going to go. like I said revisit what what had been. planned. Lie Bring People back at all. You know partially because there are just some classes that are better in person For example laboratory classes. Classes that are in the performing arts or studio arts were there is a significant and unique value. Add being in person, and then the advantage of having a small classes where there can be not just classroom instruction, but facilitating that kind of off class conversation that really goes into university experience, and so that's part of it, and then in terms of dormitory living. Living we have students, for whom the dorm is, actually the best place for them to live, they may not have an adequate housing situation otherwise and also. We know that dormitory life is part of what what young people what out of college or out of colleges and universities like the University of California so we want facilitate that to the extent we can. Get a lot of pushback from parents who say hey, wait a minute. This is not what we signed up for your money back. You know if you're not gonNA. Take kids to campus. Yeah, well well. We've been sued a couple of times. we did. provide refunds for housing and dining last spring when we had to shut down rapidly, Kobe in terms of tuition. The way we view it is that tuition is really designed to pay for the faculty and to pay for the delivery of educational content, so that students can make progress towards their degrees and. It's it's not specifically tied to being in person or online or remote, or whatever you WANNA call it but we think the the fundamentals for wide tuition is charged, and how it's calculated, still remain, and so We have no current plans to reduce two ISH. Should we use this crisis though to rethink fundamentally, leave the financial model for higher. Maybe, go online a whole lot more. Change a notion of what research universities should be doing. That definitely lessons learned in terms of how we do online instruction. will now be a permanent part of the -versity of California, but I think we should view them as a supplement to not a substitute for the residential college experience I think what we're learning here is that there are values to being a student at a residential university. Values in the social interactions between students and students and faculty and Staff the participation in extracurricular activities, the ability to take the conversation from in the classroom and keep talking while you're walking down the hall to the dining room and keep it going there. and that value add Is something that Oh. We should not WANNA lose as a country It's a great time of. Four social maturation of eighteen to twenty two year olds, but again will alter i. do think that the pedagogy. The way we teach will will change in light of what we've learned during the Cova crisis. You all the California system and many other universities are suing the trump administration for new immigration enforcement rule saying that foreign students can't have their visa extended If there are a place that's doing mainly online learning why push back on that. Why should the visas be extended if most of the learning is online? Well because. International students at the University of California they They are students, but they're also research assistance. They're teaching assistance. They're a vital part of the the graduate education at the University of California, and really the trump administration rule. was an ill considered. You know lever to force colleges to to not do online learning and to reopen as if the virus doesn't exist there. We're already through the pandemic There was no thought given to the role that international students play in American higher education and that's an important role. You and others the University of California have now endorsed a proposition that will be on California's ballot to repeal. Proposition two L. Name banned affirmative action. Do you think we should dale? In the light of what happened after George Fluids Staff used race as a consideration when determining who gets admitted to colleges. I think it should be a consideration. You know the University of California. Our admissions officers review a student according to fourteen different criteria. They want to evaluate the whole student They weren't evaluate how the student would contribute to the university. Should they be admitted the only thing they can't look to? Is the students race gender or ethnicity which is a a a key part of students identity at such an artificial limitation of so I hope that the ban on using that those factors is repealed by the California voters in November. You'll also trying. Trying to drop the Act test, the sat tasks. Is that so that you'd get more racial diversity, which the reason for dropping standardized tests like that this actually started with a request I made to the faculty back in two thousand, eighteen, who evaluate the use of the sat or act in UC admissions, faculty came back. recommended continued use of the SAT for period of years during which the university would develop own test, an its own test designed to measure whether students had mastered the Preparatory Coursework we require of applicants from California to the University of California. I looked at it and the way I saw it was. We were doing all of these things in our admissions process to mitigate for the simple fact that there's this correlation between sat and a students basically zip code the income level of their families and we. We were doing all of this work to try to. Erase that implicit bias in the task. and then in the end the test and give us all that much better knowledge of how a student would do at the University of California so. I just thought you know what it is time to wean ourselves away from use of the SAT, so we're not GONNA do it. All in one fell swoop were going to be test optional for two years. Many universities across the country are going to be test optional because of the interruption caused by Cova. Test Optional means a student considered a score but if they don't submit a score, they're not penalized for that. then will be two years test blind. What that means is that if a student submits a score, the score can be considered for something like course placement, but it cannot be used in the actual admissions decision, and then by twenty twenty five. We won't use the sat at all. What are the fundamental moral and -cational reasons to take race into account when you're admitting students. You know we're a public university and I think a public university has a public responsibility to be open and accessible to be a creator of opportunity, and I think what the country is recognizing now in the wake of the murder of George, Floyd and end the protests that have occurred since then. Is that the issue of racism in our country? It's not gone away. It's not magically disappeared It's GonNa. Require some focus and intention analogy to for our country to meet its aspirations for equality. And so for university, the University of California I think it means we have to make special effort and recognize that racism has affected students, of different colors and creeds. Throughout their upbringing. And we need to cut through that and make sure that you know our student. Body is diverse as it can be. You Wish Secretary of Homeland Security and you took on the h one n one flu epidemic. What did you learn from that? And what lessons from that or not being applied today? The number one lesson learned I think in H.. One Enron was the importance of clear and consistent science-based communication with the public so that the public knows what it needs to do, and what it can expect meaning H, one n one the of the cabinet who were involved myself secretary hhs. Secretary of Education. Arne Duncan when we spoke with the press We spoke only in terms of what we were being. By the CDC the importance of hand, washing and hand washing properly. The importance of coughing into your elbow very basic tools that the public then could use to its own advantage the the next thing we learned during h one n one. Was that pandemic planning really matters. We were able to use the playbook that had been developed during the Bush administration, and A. To H One n one, but we didn't need to start from scratch. And then thirdly I think we learned a lot about vaccine and vaccine manufacturer. You know the first. Case in the United States was founded in April of two thousand nine by the nets fall We had a national of vaccine campaign underway We were able to move very very swiftly. There now is different than a corona virus, which is a much more difficult organism to create a vaccine for then H, one one, which was a form of flu, but nonetheless. we put a lot of energy into not just the development of the vaccine, but having a vaccine distribution plan. Why can't we match the success of other countries that have pretty much successfully? Gotten to very low numbers well, we had that opportunity. We let it go. We were slow to the ball. we were slow to the ball on testing slow to the ball. In terms of establishing supply chain for critical reagents used in testing things like p. p. e. personal protective equipment for hospitals It's still chaos out there. And we have been absolutely a in in my view. misguided in terms of any communication coming from the White House, in terms of what the country should do, what is expected on the citizens of this country? We all have a role to play here and so that chaos that lack of leadership has had a real impact on our public health. It's you governor of Arizona. That stage getting walloped right now. What's happening? What went wrong there? Oh my gosh, yeah, I! Follow Arizona closely and. I think that's an example of a state that never really shutdown and when it reopened, reopen far too widely far too quickly, and when you look at the resurgence of virus there the ICU beds are act capacity. trajectory keeps going up Is a state that probably should consider going back into shutdown mode. governor Doug Ducey Republican. You are a democratic governor has just become so partisan at. He has not even consulted with you or if you've been talking to him I haven't not. I'm not spoken with a governor ducey. Bet You know I'll tell you Walter This is a public health crisis and should not be a partisan health crisis and one thing I. DO fault the Administration. The trump administration for is seeing everything. Everything through a political, Lens this virus affects Republicans and Democrats alike your ICU bed. Capacity doesn't depend on how many Democrats or Republicans are in your state. wearing a mask is a common sense. intervention that can really reduce the frequency of virus. How this got wrapped into Democrat versus Republican politics? I I think hindsight will not hindsight, even now will teach us. Is Jess the wrong way to approach it? Are you being vetted to be Joe Biden's reineck paint in this election? That to my knowledge so I. Guess you would know right I guess I would know. Yes. Okay Janet Napolitano. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you Walter. And finally the anonymous British street artist known as banks, he has a message. If you don't Mosk, you don't get. That's the title of his latest artwork that he shared in this video on social media today it shows the insurgent artists spray painting a chew car on the London Underground with his trademark images of Wrath, some sneezing, and some with mosques, hand sanitizer, and although he's all covered up, it is the clearest glimpse of banks today, an art installation that highlights the importance of covering your face and shoppers here. We'll have to wear masks entering stores in England, starting ten days from now why the weight you may ask! That's it for now, though thanks for watching and goodbye from London.