Beyond Maslow: The New Motivations" with speaker, author and motivational expert Sophie Bennett.
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Beyond maslo we find out what really motivates today's professionals and tomorrow's leaders is and we'll be doing that's with leadership and motivational expert sophie benefits and just in case you're reaching for your pen and paper right now or whatever app app you use you can find links and more information in our show notes which you can view inside your podcast app or by going to go dot com so you don't have to work too hard the moment when you have to do you sit back and listen so let's get started with this week's compensation hello sophie. Where are you speaking from today carline speaking from on a very windy and sunny and can't make its mind whether in gloucestershire in england well you are in the west of the country. We're in the easter this. This interview is being recorded toward the end of summer twenty nine thousand nine hundred. It's very likely if in a couple of years time people describing this as an archive that gives them a sense when we were having this original conversation so thank you very much for joining us on the podcast today sophie. Let's start with you all right because there's quite it's a lot we can be saying about you so try and make a start. I did say were motivation expert. You're a bestselling author. You're a champion dressage rider with a strong business business background. You're visiting lecturer at the cranfield school of management at grand prix dress arthritis. We've mentioned a former national question champion the ski instructor bestselling author and you were ahead of content for dell so certainly an eclectic background which guarantees presentations and your ability to talk to audiences and pack pack those presentations with anecdotes an interesting stories about leadership and motivation. You've been researching what drives success will people for the last twenty years then. You've turned that into several books including your latest which we'll be talking about. It's called find your flame why motivation matters more than talent and while you interviewed people for the book which stems almost fifty world class performers from business science the arts and sports turns out you identified five new intrinsic motivation types that reveal feel how ordinary people tap into their deepest internal motivations to achieve amazing things so you'll give us the inside track on what you discovered about why these existing and future leaders do what they do and you've also got some ideas until we can all use to reach our full potential and a changing business environment so that gives us a new understandings of what really drives people tell us what origin stories and really interesting idea you have about creating a cool moments those little steps build toward a career ladder and then we'll discover how we can create those moments and make those moments land so they really make a difference in businesses and <music> out careers so we've said quite a lot about you and your work ready so what left off what else he working on. How does it connect with our topic today while working on the the next book which is a little mini version. That's almost like a desk version that people can keep in their top drawer and pull out when the struggling with something. That's the next little project and that's going to be supporting some of the work. I'm doing with crime fiscal of management and to be able to leave that on seats in conferences as swallow because as you've already mentioned my primary job these days is a keynote speaker so i think it's really helpful when you're in conferences and speeches to be able to leave something behind that people can pick up news off to whitson. Take back to the real world non-conference world of busy z. lives and lots of things to do because otherwise you can be inspired in the speech but if you've got nothing to take away with you then you can't just go back to business as usual and and my job is to try and stimulate change and then give people the tools to be able to sustain it that sustaining question is something that i think marks the leaders out from those of us who have yet to lead its resilience. It's being able to be consistent. It's the ability to keep going and you've discovered at that. Our understanding of what keeps us going what motivates us is is developing all the time and your core expertise is is new understanding what much of asia so give us an idea of what sectors you focus on what type of clients demanding work with them. What challenges tune sees do you typically. He helped them plop new pants. Okay so my audience is really diverse so in the last say eight weeks. I've spoken to a group of health health professionals. I've spoken to a large group of people who were dealing with. Terminally ill patients. I've spoken. It's as an accountancy organisation annual conference so it's really it's really diverse. People tend to book may because they have professional organizations. I have a professional background myself in consulting as you mentioned dow upton love i._t. Consulting i think so i think people realize the i understand professional audiences and it's true that if you've been in a profession fashion yourself then you have an idea that you already talking to highly qualified highly intelligent people who are looking for something different different something new insights into their own performance <hes> to teach and i think that's the difference as well if you're if you're going into a conference source speaking engagements and an element of its teaching then it's a different different feel isn't it so dealing with professional audiences says it's understanding just how educated they already are and finding something. That's going to be a perfect fit for them. This is an increasingly global reality so this is bound to have universal relevance and i think no matter where anyone may have gone to business school done any business education education. They may have run into the name that in spite the topic we're talking about the title of this podcast which is beyond maslo. What really motivates it professionals in. Tomorrow's leaders remind us who maslo is. Why did you choose that titling. What do you think it says about. Why this topic is so important right now interesting with i've muslims who was a psychologist and he did he came up with a pyramid of a hierarchy of needs back in the it was late twenty s and it's something that's really enjoyed with people want saw basic needs are met we start getting increasingly sophisticated needs until at the end we come to self actualization which is on the top of the pyramid now it's great theory and it holds water in many areas of our life and certainly it's true that as we as we age as we develop and roundout people all basic needs are likely to be increasingly met and we start looking coming up puts to purpose driven existences to contributing to those soap so maslow's very strong and well understood stood theory however i do think that the something missing about it for today's professional world and that is how do you actually apply what maslow's tells us that helps us rise towards the top of the pyramid and live more satisfied lives so when i i started writing the book that's out now the find your flame book that you mentioned i wanted to look at some real stories <hes> some of the latest scientific evidence about the psychology of peak performance and how we take nozzles great concepts and put some tools around them the people could actually actually used in the day to day lives and i think with any research projects <hes> which is what a book is when it takes two years to write almost full time. Is you <music> very easily trip over little pieces of nuggets little nuggets of gold that you think what's interesting. I didn't expect to find that out and that sort of where the interest in the threat starts and that's exactly what happened with my book and that's where these for those five flames of motivation those five life intrinsic motivation types that's where they came from from all those little some is like pulling a little threat and then you start to unravel what gone before and unrealized as a whole new world. That's happened as a result of the technology changes that we have. We always think we understand why motivated and let's just go back to maslow's <unk>. Somebody's not looked hierarchy of needs. I've done this any number of times. Various business schools remind us the old understanding of those standard idealism much ovation's all what what else is on that hierarchy. Yes i want you get your basic needs taken in care of them. We don't sit back as humans and say okay. That's it. We're done <hes>. We tend to look up and say okay. How can we make life better so it's natural rule trying to make life better so once we've had our basic needs taken care of them. We start looking at more sophisticated needs some it goes beyond food shelter it goes towards comforts and then we start looking at our social needs and our creative needs and so on until you get right up to a point of sort of almost zen like bliss where you know exactly why you're on the planet you have everything you need all the writ intern on resources but until you've got the basics in place if you haven't got a roof have you had and you can't eat and he can't provide for your family then that's the total focus but once you get beyond that then you you start looking at more and more sophisticated requirements and that's where your recent book find your flame steps into into the game doesn't it because you've discovered that there's quite a lot beyond that maslow's hierarchy of needs which many of us may already have run into <hes> <hes> quite a lot of new stuff that you discovered and tell us how you tip that who did you talk to yeah actually came out in those conversations on okay so one of the first things i did was i looked at all the modern work that had dean done ram motivation so the some great books on the topic which had already piled piled through hundreds of scientific papers which are used as reference material and i went back to the scientific papers to see if anything had been missed because the festival best of all the books summarise so that a wider audience can get access to material so one of the key books i looked at was drive by daniel pink which choose affectively a study of studies and i love the way daniel pink bright sees a real storyteller as well as a distributor of scientific discovery and pink was very good at defining the three elements that rose if you like out of the bulk of the more recent scientific tiffin studies and they were that although the people are motivated in one way businesses don't always match those natural motivations in his mission was to try and get businesses to do what people really are looking for and his three key motivators were moss straight eight which is becoming really good at something and it's something that probably everybody listening to this podcast who's highly qualified fashionable with already understand because because most rates gaining your qualifications knowing your craft becoming better and better and what you do the second thing that he identified as a came motivator at was a sense of autonomy where you choose what you do how you do it and preferably who you do with say you choose. Choose your team. You choose your company and thirdly it's bound. Having a sense of purpose was the third leg of his three legged stool save people of got a sense of mastery a clear sense of purpose and a feeling of autonomy they will perform that best however however when i was reading that book amongst many others there was just a little feeling that there was something missing under about you kyle. I don't get up in the morning thinking. I need more autonomy. You know if you haven't got it. You know if you being micromanaged and i'm sure most people almost anybody listening to this as had somebody at some point micromanage incriminates them. It's really irritating isn't it and but i knew that most people won't they have autonomy once they have a sense of purpose once they have author level of mastery people. Don't stop being ambitious. Do they still drive there so i felt there was something something missing and that's when i started interviewing people because that's all i need to get out into the field and taught people exceptional of what they do to to find out. They've probably got the mastery. They've already got automative already. Okay sense of purpose. What is it that really drives then now now. They've got everything that they need to have. So a good chunk of the people studied were in the forties fifties and beyond they'd already reached a high my level of success and they will still highly driven people who i interviewed artists are interviewed ceos interviewed sovereigntists and sports people and and highly successful salespeople and speakers sev- right across the professional and autism spectrum and what really shocked me was that nearly every single one of them wanna ask them when they were first aware of how driven nyla they told me origin story that something i am really interested. I will ask you about origin stories and a little more detail later but i'd be interested to know how he managed to track down and find fifty. Top business is leaders who are willing to actually go that deep because i would imagine for many of them. They thought well. This is going to be another discussion about mosley but you went to. There's some new places how you take all of that and then put it into something that a got them talking and be you then distill into something makes something at that level relevant to those of us who may be on on so many other different levels of our inquiry ladders first of all if i'd known how difficult it was going to be. I don't think i would have picked fifty people and if i ever suggest i'm going to do another book based on fifty interviews plus research please time our hands behind my back and lobbying talk couldn't because it's a takes a lot to sort that amount of data anyway having done that i was very fortunate to who having had an ex a sporting background and a business background i was able to draw on a lot of amazing people who were in my contact base and the people well who was that i wanted to reach often. I simply just linked in connected with them. Announced them and i was amazed how many people said yeah sure i'll have an interview provided you give me a clear that grand of what you're trying to achieve the book so i sent over synopsis trying to achieve told them who the other participants soi and then crucially i gave them a list of sample questions which allowed people to judge if they were comfortable to the interview or not and it was the sample questions that actually led to the discovery car because unwittingly i also question that got people to really i think about when that dry i caked in for them right. You change the discussion about motivation and you've got some interesting responses which you've we've put into your book and that reminds us that things are always changing so it's back a bit before we go forward to what you discovered in your book about motivation what tries leaders in the context of the work that you're doing in the past. Perhaps when you ahead of content dow pets elsewhere. What was the last big disruption that you saw in the work. You're you're doing paps annual <unk> during with the finance or accounting organiz ation how how did that change the organizations that you you may have worked within the past. What was the last big disruption. There's a couple of big ones that i can refer to the first real one that changed life completely was was the the internet disruption we we are so used to email podcasts and digital that now we we forget that actually wasn't that long ago when we didn't have a list digital technology and our working lives has changed enormously so when i look back to nine hundred ninety c._a._t. Is working in a little booty consultantcy that specialized in information design and nobody really knew i was but we used to write loft manuals and ah process stuff the banks and finance houses and procedures and things like that but what we had was a way of making information and thinking thinking modular say reut at that period when i went i was massively disrupted myself by the way because i was on exports person coming into business. I didn't have a clue new radio while i was doing but around that time the world was being disrupted by this thing called the internet and i remember going back from one day and saying hey we need to get google and everybody in the in the ball where i was eating not night teddy to me and said cuckoo. What's that now. That's that's too much in con- isn't it but actually it was twenty years ago and and now google completely dominates our lives so i happen to be i suppose in the right place at the right time in that i was at beginning in computing when everybody was a beginner in computer so i've never lost that sense of amazement and wonder at what it does and i've never lost the feeling that the velocity is always faster than we expected to be. You know we think we're in a world. That's relatively typically stable because we don't notice how quickly it's changing around us until were hit by a personal huge disruption and having listened to some of your previous podcast something that it always seems to amaze people that the disruption actually hits them at some point and the big thirst i have from audiences audiences is how can i personally prepare myself for disruption but what people really want to know is how they can avoid it and and that's the challenge because the most successful people on a long-term basis that i speak to and i'm very fortunate. I get to speak because his a match up to a lot of very successful people in fast changing industries is they are not the people trying to avoid disruption that either the people people who are making it all the people who are designing how other people can ride it so they get well ahead of the curve. The not what favorite disruption there actually party to it all they all the big disruptors and that's how they ensure themselves against a future-proof increase if you like let's keep that momentum going by bringing it back to those very people that you've written about in your book would different motivation types that you write about. What did you discover about what actually drives these business leaders that interview we put only complex psychological ecological language around motivation we talk about employee engagement as if it's a thing and yes it can be measured and we can find out how our around -ployees feeling about companies their jobs but ultimately we are feeling creatures and what i realized from the interviews this was that when you are somebody a very specific question about when they i felt something it's almost as if the years drop poway is they remember it now. What i realized was after doing the fifteenth views. I thought i was onto something so i did a survey of another four two hundred people and the results made it crystal clear to me that people have certain feelings that they gravitate towards what's and they spend allies trying to reproduce them as often as possible and as strongly as possible so the the motivations that people have sort of fell into roughly five categories so get us off <unk> these these five essential elements that you you put in that book yes were. They all a surprise to you. A couple of them were surprise to me and as we go through them. I think if you're listening to this podcast you'll recognize awesome yourself some of them you will be surprised at and some of them are obvious that only when you know that they exist so the first one is a flow motivation and people that experience a state of flow zen state of being in the zone states fairly early on in life are looking for more of it because flows really powerful. It has powerful neuro transmitters. It has a biochemistry feels great but it's quite quite solid tree experience so if you've ever been totally absorbed in a computer game or you've been out sailing and feel at one with the c or u ski a your run in the countryside and you have that feeling the wind in your hair and your all your worries drop away. That's a feeling of flow and it's it's been identified. You can read all about the the science behind flow. There was an author called me. High chick sent me high he wrote the definitive buchaan flow so flow was a state that when people experience it they want more and more of it incidentally not everybody has experienced inst- flow so you are motivated by it strongly if you have felt it so that's the first one the second one was this was people who get a great feeling from being part of a team and its inclusion motivation so these are people who you have a strong bond with us. He'll get the biggest high from seeing a group perform while and in the interviews these will often people who came either from very strong strong families or who had strong team experiences when they were young where they really felt the most alive when they were part of a functioning group so in some ways opposite to flow because it's about other interaction with others where you get the both from as opposed to flow which is very personal personal and very internal you can flow but not anybody else can necessarily see it. Oh by the way as a listener you can follow along with the five times because it spells fired as in fired up got fly. We've got inclusion. The third one is results made avation and people all that told me about that one of their strongest memories being winning something achieving something and for one gentleman for example it was when he was recognized by his dad for the first time for achieving something and he said to me that is father really hadn't paid much attention to him. He he felt invisible until he was about seven and he won a prize at school and his dad literally gave him a pat on the back and for the first time tom abbott said he was proud of him and interestingly that person went on to become an award-winning athlete because he knows winning staff. Get the attention and gets him the recognition he seeks result motivation can come in all sorts of ways say some academics very driven by results motivation as well. That's results the fourth one completely different and it's expression national association and that's really all about emotions and your artistic silent and people who are very results motivated often can't relate to this so well but people who are very strongly expression motivated a looking for peaks of feeling so you often see this from with people in the arts in caring professions <hes> people who write poetry and this actually thousands upon thousands of expression driven people hidden and i use the way deliberately hidden inside the world of business comma must because it's not always looked on terribly well. It's not looked on as a strength and yet if you ask people what they do weekends and they say not that they do medieval reenactments or they write poetry or possibly choir or they secretly want to be the next pop style or songwriter writer then challenges. Are you gonna expression driven person in your midst and they have a really strong need to communicate so if expression driven people are suppressed and they don't have a voice they can actually have a negative effect on culture say all i have to say all of the five we got one more to go or the five have shadows of course so that's not the expression driven people have shadow and the stone every every motivation tight has a shadow on the final one. I'll tell you a story actually wealth and telling what is straight off off the final one if you've got this you'll have an seychas appetite for new things a scientist called professor norman macleod one alston that question when he was i motivated he said he was about nine years old and he remembers in his garden in texas this picking up a rock and turning this rock over and saying all this stuff wriggling underneath and they were ants headlines and he said he looked this rock and he just went wow and he said for the last all sixty years. I've been doing that pretty much jefferson's. He still has fascinated now back discovering new things so the final flay allay the final motivating factor is discovering and anybody who's watched <hes> people like professor brian cox or david data on tv will relate to that eternal fascination and that one question merely by answering humidity open open up another few questions and those people for example make brilliant at forensic accountant brilliant trial lawyers. You want to get the truth. Great detectives brilliant scientists say that sense of discovery can be a bit of grit in the oyster because they was once the next thing they're never satisfied what they know not always these people to work with every sense but they are hugely innovative and without them are businesses would stole grind to a halt because we don't get comfortable tip. I've got this right this flow this inclusion results expression and discovery all of which if you make a word out of the abbreviation gives you the wood fired have give us some example of what this new understanding means practically and going to split miles into two parts and the first part is that with these ace states there are states not trade. This is not personality. It's about feelings right so they'll states have being once we have. I don't know what it is. That really drives us. Whether that be flow inclusion results expression or discovery we will want to reproduce those states and get them as often as possible and strongest possible for ourselves but we don't realize is that because we've spent a lifetime doing that. We're getting close. It's just that feeling more of the time we live developed the skills around it now. Here's what i mean for example. If you are good at getting into flow because that's your preferred state you will have a whole bunch of skills that people without that aren't chasing that particular state date that particular flame don't have so people who good at getting into flow all brilliantly focused they all greater excluding destruction attraction being in the moment being focused. It's the skill of mastery that good at getting masterful at something and you often find flow people surrey highly skilled at multiple different things and it's because they have the skill of applying themselves focusing things the focusing focusing on something really deeply now inclusion people are really great at making human connection but not necessarily greater focus so so the point is that every one of these states has a really powerful skill behind it so in the real world when you can identify the state. That's most preferable to you. You will realize that you have skills that are transferable elsewhere the you may not thought about skills if i asked a flow driven person if they thought that concentration was a scale on a half done and they just look at me sideways. They're almost don't understand the question because is it so natural to them and yet if you ask them how good they are building rapport with people they often then start to twitch and bilbao rebel comfortable. If you ask getting clues in person how good they are building rapport with people that look us if you're not because they think everybody can do it. Yes so this things that we get good at that. We we become more skillful at that. Become just part of who we are but one of the brilliant things a leader can do with this is that they can identify almost use it as a map for the key skills in the team say focused people brilliant at ah flow people putting into getting focused inclusion people brilliant building teams bringing people together building ripoll negotiating negotiating anything where they have to start bringing people together results people are fantastic being self accountable but not everybody the self cancel. Some people find the glare of have you reached a deadline. Have you succeeded. Have you itemized your success. Some people find that very stressful stressful now what results people are fabulous ads is reframing so-called failure as other people may see it into a learning gene say okay so they use not doing something well as more information to reach the next results so reframing failure dietary something they do quite naturally. You hear this a lot from sports punch. Lee you say why didn't you. Why didn't you win the medal and they won't say because i had a bad what day they'll say well. I got my training regime wrong and i didn't peak at the right moment and i don't think my nutrition was right. We need to go back and have another look at that and so so they'll they take what many people call failure justice data as information. It's dispassionate that source of information on that skill very few people. I've ever spoken to realize that reframing failure is a skill. They think it's a gift they think somehow that these results driven people just magically more resilient than now no they just. I have a different strategy. The how they cope with failure because failure isn't failure. They've refrained it. They've repackaged in minds to be something. That's not be taken personally. That's an information gold mine about how they can do things differently in succeed next time. If you ask a results driven person that they won't see it as a skill. They think that everybody condemn it. If you expression driven people about how how good they are empathizing again look at you and think will everybody can do that combine because today is not a skill but they have a certain way of doing things things certain process that allows them to put themselves in those people's shoes and to connect to their own emotions and connect with the emotions of others to them. It's not skill and the discovery driven people. They don't think the curiosity is a skill but it is. There's a sudden patent of thinking that allows people to ask ospel questions so people who aren't very creative innovative in a business for example if you sat them down with somebody who's very creative very innovative whose discovery even initially that would probably be conflict because the discovery person wants to unpick everything wants discover how it works but if you actually were able to take the mindset and say okay. How can you get somebody excited about change. The discovery person can show people to do that when the put in the right environment so on a practical level is very helpful to just understand that each of the motivators is actually has developed into a skill sets and to get a rounded team or rounded bold. You actually need them. All you need somebody who can focus. You need somebody who can bring a team together. You need somebody who can deliver the results. You need nate somebody who can create a culture and keep people on board and communicate which is what expression driven people are doing a great communicators and you need somebody to innovate because otherwise whatever you doing now is only going to be successful for limited amount of time before your competition outperforms you or the market world around you changes and makes you less relevant so it's a really great little postcard five key things that you need to be aware office the working in your team or in your company right now. Are we an innovative enough. Are we focused enough. Are we people focused enough or we results focused enough and and connecting emotionally with our team with our customers so that's part one of the answer. The part of the answer said i was going to answer in two parts was actually actioning the five flames of really all about moments that made such an impact on people that they've spent a lives in some way trying to reproduce that great feeling so our customers and our teams are clients. Remember the moments of impact we make on them most of what we do disappeared in a blah with people because people busy lives line so if you work from the heath brothers huge fan the heath brothers i think the website is just he brothers dot com to professors based in the u._s. Who writes about psychology and peak performance. <hes> they wrote a book a little while ago called power of moments and they defined the most powerful moments the ones that we remember as the the first moments that we experienced something the lost moments the we experience in a particular context and the peaks the high points in the pit so we remember the best in the worst and the beginning and the end and everything in the middle tends to sorta -ticipant into our forgettable consciousness so if we can create peak moments for people whether that before clients whether it be for the members of our organizations that were running if we're running an organization sation like c._p._i. Sima where we have hundreds of thousands of members across the world how can we create experiences moments for them that will make personal impact on that and so the flames allow you those five motivation types alliance designed different experiences for people who are motivated in different weiss lice so am i getting this right with a leader having this greater understanding of themselves than moving leaving tool tibet of understanding of their immediate team not sits down to the organization everyone relaxing into a better version of themselves but specifically from the top down which makes tip very important because you're reducing stress and as people become this more web better versions of the professional selves that they are you will find leaders moving from people who just have the leadership position they start into exercise more influence in the battle as well and that leads them to have more personal professional impact and as a result the teamwork's bashed in the organization expect to and have i got back right absolutely spot on absolutely spot on because once people move from authority to impact instead of using their authority not to employ people they use the leadership that personal quality of in a self confidence of certainty of big outward-looking people will naturally start to follow rather than just defer to authority and that's when people's personal power whatever level of the organization you you are in or maybe your self employed and you remember and you want to more influence and impact with your clients that ah sense of self exploring south and understanding your contacts in the world. That's what moves you from authoritate- eight to influence it's huge shift and you can be many of these five different elements kanji you can have more than one flame burning absolutely absolutely well. I think we'll have all of them. That what i have identified is that we all have one really bright one that we gravitate to first and then we have a secondary one which which balances it out and a smattering of the other three and it's contextual of course it may be that you seek flow in your personal life because you skiing is your big thing which is very flow driven activity but when you're at work you're hiding results driven person and you love the numbers and you you love reaching targets so yeah we have different flames in different contexts but this one i think is a listener sner. You probably have recognized something about yourself. In each of those that really stood out to you and then people tell me they hear on a think. Oh am i that one that one but yeah one big strong one one secondary one matching three context right sydney lots to talk about as we continue our conversation with sophie showkey shortly. We'll be talking about some practical steps to disruption in tunis. He will especially go back to that idea of origin stories turning over roxana in our own histories similar about the moments that will be creating a stepson career ladders ways of making those moments land so i'm real impact packed. All of that is coming up in this episode of the gumption podcast brought to by the association of international five professional accountants. You can find out more about this podcast cost and about the rest of what we do at go beyond disruption dot com we are talking to sophie bennett's about what really motivates today's is leaders on. What's that new understanding tells us about what we can do to maximize our leadership potential changing transforming business <unk> environment savvy mentioned imports of origin stories. I'll this has nothing to do with x. Men but i would imagine that you could give us an idea of what these stories actually are a it. Is it true that made us who we were will always make us who will be. I think one of the wonderful things that being human is that we can cheese. He's he'll be at any point in life. However we all influenced by our past because we are a product of all the things that we've experienced variance and seen and happened to us some things have been hugely positively motivational and other things will be the things that we want to avoid pain and discomfort disappointment but many people spend their lives avoiding that so i remember michael one of the people i interviewed for the book for example. He said to me that we spend a big chunk of time. Avoiding all the pain we had when we were younger by accelerating and a lot of high achievers are actually just in the business of avoiding disappointment and pain and i thought well that's a really negative active way to think about it and then i look back through the trump scrapes a realized to a large extent he was right so yes. We're a product took our past our futures anything we want to make it. The origin story idea is really important because even if those experiences appearances haven't shape as much as we think is carrying on telling ourselves. That's who we are so the khun locker saying. I'm prevent us from going forward but you know i have to ask this now. A mentioned rights in the beginning with your address saw rider a you were champion equestrian strean now people might be expected to also what is dressage they can google it 'cause now guten exist. We've definitely established that but we've not established rushed is still in for you your origin story well. I remember the starting life when i was very very small dreaming ming about little white ponies coming up the walls bedtime and taunting me away to sleep so i always have this obsession with horses and and i was very nervous horse rider said it goes back this origin story really and i think one of the reasons i've ended up as a very flow motivated kid person is that because i was nervous i never felt comfortable on a pony was scared. It was going to run away with me or me off on the floor and kick me so i knew the only way to insulate against that was to become a really good writer so i i never felt gifted as a rider but i always worked very very hard and the lessons that taught me with a a few really apply yourself to something if you really mars to something as much as any individual balanced baseball can be mastered. I suppose it it became a habit of excellence because i achieved in common with many of the people i interviewed in the book much much greater success than i ever expected to run those one lady. I spoke to electrical judy knocker. Judy sold her company further. We're back sixty million pounds as seventy five million dollars at the time to a huge global company and she said i never expected it to happen. I was just trying to pay the mortgage but she was a perfectionist but she was certainly a high achiever. So she drove herself to be the best she could be in the company just grew and grew and grew and so a lot of people who have achieved great things they almost feel like kitts a bit of an accident they found a key to success for them was just being coming really really good at things so my origin story if he lied. I taught me very early on if i apply myself if i master things i get unexpected rewards and it always takes me to surprising places assists and that's played out in my life. I've reinvented myself as somebody who listeners may be doing right now. They're reinventing their careers reinventing in that place within the world of finance reevaluating our lives entirely and it's important to know the the skills that have got you the success you've got so far can be reapplied in a different context. That's very comforting thing to know so myojin soy definitely goes back to apply yourself master something and then the confidence inference that comes with it openness just amazing doors because self confidence really is the case of success is now. I think without out self-confidence if you're telling yourself these stories that you can't do things that your limitation don't know enough people that not good enough to do this. Life has has a habit of becoming a self fulfilling prophecy so confidence comes from competence. I think in in the welfare many many people he pro faced very similar situation to you. When i was on the pony <unk> i fell off. I remember sky on the grounds grounds alleged sky. There was constant when my feet rolling hills coming to stop completely winded you would go on to that horse again. Kept writing until you mouse in it the way <unk> situation never to get on host again so perhaps i need to recalibrate so that is my practical solution so let's keep it price go well. Maybe you'll the sensible one kyle well. It's not the not the amendments mount landing on that. I think we were talking about because i did talk about making landing mums massive for me that impact bruised beyond that but someone who's working now in data intensive or numbers i team vitamins in fashionable finance capacity when counting things league org future leader can do to really start making a difference. I think the biggest thing is human connection and the more we go into an a._i. Driven uh-huh world the more we experienced remote working the more we have the autonomy that we all dream of the more isolated we can become tom. You know people sit behind email and social media and it's very easy to do because it's very nonthreatening we've got chance to think how words through for latch they you know appear on a screen somewhere and so for anybody building a career whether it be looking your next job whether it be stepping into leadership a position whether it's just becoming best at what you do right now become the best that you convey. You can't do it in a vacuum and the biggest lesson i <music>. I'm learning from all the amazing people get to speak with and listen to is that the ones that get on are the ones that have a great network the ones who work on the personal and social skills the ones who overcome introversion enough to make the connections that are important to them because i recognize in finances a lot of introverts. It's personally uninterrupted. People expect all speakers. I think to be naturally extrovert but actually when you're up onstage they're up there or learn so introversion is something that does block lots of careers i believe and when you realize that some very <hes> successful people are highly introverts it actually opens the door for other introverts to realize that they can be a success so yeah the big lesson at the moment the big relevant leadership skill right now big career building skill right now is the same as it's always in spain which is bill personal connections work on your soft skills and build those human relationships because people always against people i nine fast anything before that game to a stranger so when you talk about creating these these moments <unk> says steps on on our own career ladder than making sure they land in the right way youtube <unk> righted land right by ourselves. It's it's going to land in the way the people we work alongside but it's also makes sense in terms foreign career ladder so when on your radio on the way howdy take something that might fill good personally but then you think that now has has to reflect out i've now to engage team of managers on entire department to to do this to think about themselves in the perspectives as individuals joel's. How do you do that. How do you expect that to impact that performance and they business once that starts to land probably well first of all we we all these moments are usually moments of connection or moments of inside the moments of impact that they're that they're the times that people remember so people will often remember first day in a job or the first day in a new team <hes> they'll remember moments of peak stress yes so maybe they have to speak in front of the team for the first time. That's often very stressful. People say firsts lasts peaks and troughs. We talked about that early early. On the high we go up the chain of leadership. The more people need to spend time designing. Those moments robbed the allowance when fell by accident so let me give you a great example <hes> when we move from one project to another which happens all the time business and we're all undergoing change programs in the all look the time one of the hard things people struggle with often is letting go of work. They've they've done previously. It's very hard to spend time on a project or the team and then suddenly find that project is no more say there's an emotional will withdraw from that and there was a great example steve jobs famously or actually not so famous because this particular story rat chops isn't so well known but it's it's a brilliant concept jobs knew how to help people let go of the past so that they could face in a new direction and when they retired and one of the old faithful operating systems it was a mac operating system that had about about two thousand engineers who had worked on this project to miss their school kids nativity plays who'd missed holidays today's who'd worked nights and miss their favorite football team playing who'd laughter wise in the delivery room. I'm serious so he knew that when they retired that project a lot of people are going to feel a sense of loss and there was a bit of anger inside the company that they are actually calling this this particular o._s. Say his what steve jobs did and this to me is brilliant leadership. He held a mock funeral roll on the stage on the apple campus so everybody could pay their respects to all the work that had gone into the operating system and gave thanks for its existence existence and water contributed to the company and now it was time to bring in the new blood so we almost allowed everybody to crave and showed that the work and the dedication that the engineers had put into the operating system was not just going to disappear and just get written off off and yet so many times in our businesses we just we finish something and then we just all my sweeps under the carpet and we go next and it can be sold destroying for people so when i talk about designing moments i believe it's up to leaders to design those moments of transition with great care and if that sounds like too big a deal for busy people to do if you just take a moment to have have a conversation with somebody who doesn't maybe think that you like them very much just tightly untrue because you just a busy person you could potentially make a moment at that person will remember for months if not years if you smile at somebody he's looking a bit depressed in the corner if very very easy just we'll pass them but really smiling connect with somebody it will make him or even for them that could lift the rest of her day so making moments isn't complicated ace it but the most powerful ones made from personal connections and thinking about the impact that the work has on on your team on on the people in your business closest to you because they're the ones you have the biggest impact on right whether you're a leader or manager your sole practitioner within a team the people who who were closest to you they feel your energy on a daily basis so it's up to ask to try and impact of the people as best we can with an energy. That's going to help diagnose just hours. Impact energy really important lows. I would imagine the qualities that you bring to some of the presentations you may you did side when you're onstage royce tying that by yourself but of course you're facing an audience of many many people and often said that the accounting and finance professionals that you've spoken to in the past seem to found you'll presentations nations really beneficial if you've been speaking recently in one of people told you about <unk> from from these sessions so a few weeks ago i was in the beautiful island of jersey for the a._c._c. A regional conference had about two hundred finance professionals in there and what really resonated them. People told me about afterwards. Was that something i tend to do in my presentations ain't just chalk and talk because they say i want want people to interact if only mentally if if the rooms it is inappropriate to get five hundred people standing up and doing exercise which it often is in a big conference just use control control the room you lose control. The timing says it doesn't always work but you cannot ask people searching questions because when people are in an audience in a conference they are getting time to reflect that they very very rarely do at work. You know we're all very productivity driven. We've all got to do so so when somebody's sitting there at a forty five minute keynote and after about ten minutes we naturally zone our our our brains. Are we listen to the same voice for a long period of time. We naturally stop to lose attention. We go off mood daydream little bit so my presentations are always very interactive dave. I'm asking people to just make a note on their phone about something all right themselves from one to ten or then have to share the outcomes comes with those results but depending on the audience will design an experience for them for forty five minutes rather than talk through speech and i think that's very different and people will come out and they'll say things to like. I didn't know that about myself i'm going to i'm going to try something different at the office his tomorrow. All i never thought about reframing failure is one that comes up time and time again when i talk about results drive and how results driven people are very good reframing failure people often say to me i just i just think how failed you've made me think differently about that so my the job i think is to help people rethink their own perceptions and rethink their origin stories and have forty five minutes of time for themselves. Mm selves can have a real impact on the way they do. Things will come out of that conference room. That's that's my job and if i get people that comment on linked dane or send me in email will come up to me afterwards than which they always do a number with blown over by some of the changes the profound changes that happened to some people so then. I know i've done my job day before. I ask you what you've got coming up. I'm particularly interested in what you think. Finance accounting professionals find this to be particularly interesting from from the perspective of how the profession is changing the challenges it faces at the moment as people look in so many directions for new opportunities not absolutely certain which path to follow when you speak to a finance audience. Would you think what you say particularly chimes with them. Okay well. People tell me there's a lot of fear around diane automation and that's quite understandable because things are going super super fast. I did something that's a talk to count acts could arise the robots a couple of months ago and that was really looking into what's going on in the far east and most gang on in in china asia because they are on a parallel universe us too us intensive eye on and how that applying a._i. Today's today's business applications so that's a source of great fear to the people accountants and finance professionals often not entirely often tend to be introverted as a high proportion of introversion in finance so people aren't always comfortable expressing their fee is next pressing that concerns and a lot of the time people are nervous about saying that the that they have a question. They don't know everything they think they should know but the biggest change of all is that for the last hundred years or more we have been in a world. That's respected qualifications above everything else. Certifications come very very very highly professional. Growing professional qualifications growing professional stature has to depend on passing exams and so we we have come from a point of measuring <hes> financial and professional competence but we're in a changing world because with a wii automation and the new technologies that are coming along our technical skills are actually the first ones are going to be disrupted major way so watts left when you take technical skills away in the main people are very fearful about that but i'm personally very optimistic about bats it because i think what gets left is the skills that we have to connect with our customers and clients are amazing human ability not to see exceptions to the rule and although an algorithm can do that to a point the something about human intuition that means that we do it amazingly well in context so i think for people who are focused on have always been focused on technical excellence and technical scale obviously. I'm not saying drop that. It's very important. People are probably qualified for the job but the house. It's almost starting point because that's the bit that's gonna get disrupted. I so yeah it's it's again back to this leadership shit back to making connections back to personal impact back to personal connections. The circle always seems to come round an end up back in the same placed. He's not well. Let's look at that cycle and i did say recording this in late summer two thousand nineteen what some your calendar the what's coming up for you over the course of the next few months we will you be speaking again. I'll well. I've got pretty busy autumn coming up. I've got a a lot of work coming up with the cranfield school of management. Some of that scans beans national said very excited around designing course around the five flames and the design of moments for individuals for teams and four customer experiences. That's something really exciting. I've also got speaking can engagements for c._p._a. Australia for the european conference. I'm speaking at the national institute of business analysts and the membership organizations just been booked for the association executives congress and which are membership organizations from accounting amounting to publishing to healthcare if people have lots of members with shared interests than the chief executives or senior event planners again to be accident said that i'm gonna be talking there about designing moments for broader communities tastes which is really exciting concept. I think that's one of the things that we realized that today is there's more and more technology making it easier for people to connect. You've got lincoln groups. You've got as you said the professional associations you've got facebook and whatever other platforms may be coming to the full in the future. It's important to get get a sense of once you've track to the community or professional association a membership organization for any sort. How do you keep them together how to keep them motivated to keep them engaged engaged so i think <hes> talking to membership associations and organizations you will be doing will be very important what motivates them to. Let's keep that audience in mind because we know oh that al typical listener likes to keep ahead of the curve very same people. You speak to help us out here from your perspective. What's the next disruption option that you see coming. I think it's gonna be application. I at the moment we've got a is loot eight sits there at the back of linked in helping us suggest on next conversations. It's driving some of the algorithms that affect our lives around and insurance all sorts of different financial decisions <hes> but it's not really as widespread as it's going to be in ten years time this some really interesting stuff that's going on in china where china because they didn't have such an advanced financial infrastructure as many parts of the west. They didn't have credit cards standard. They didn't have checks ax albeit that being phased out here now but they didn't have that have direct debits or standing orders or plastic debit cards. There was a whole host of missing infrastructure in china which has with the advent of a._i. Given them a huge advantage vantage in that they have gone almost from cash to cash less without having to get rid of anything so they have not had to make a substantial santeuil mental leap from direct debit with a guarantee to q. all code and money stray tasks of your bank account so a a that's one of the biggest ones is coming for this profession specifically is that we haven't really gone cashless yet. It's gonna happen very very quickly when it when it starts and i don't think we'll row really what's hit and the next big disruption from that will be going straight from cashless transaction straight into our local tax authorities whether that be the i._r._s. in the u._s. or h in the you k. or the equivalent in different countries so i think there's going to be huge industry-wide disruption around how how and where finance professionals come into the mix because there's going to be a lot more direct to consumer and business direct to the tax sororities interaction a lot of that's going to be driven by a lot of it's gonna be driven by cashless transactions so yeah a lot of destruction coming and the people people at will cope with it will be the people can leadership skills. The software and tech is going to be an opportunity you say because that's gainst do is is take stuff off on desks as finance professionals now. The opportunity is for us to figure out what are the value. Can we bring and what i'm also hear you say is opportunity is out that we've just got to make sure that we feel comfortable in ourselves. In order to be ready ready to surfing that wave whatever direction it's coming from absolutely and i think governing bodies and trade sanctions and professional membership organizations like c._p._a. Same are doing a great job to pull together. A what's going on in the wider world is really really important that people stay connected acted with the research and information that you produce because we can't take in everything from everywhere. They know there's there's a limit will radio on information nation overload but definitely it's never been more important to keep your finger on the pulse of what's going on out there in the world's changing really fast awesome. Stay connected with with people if you're a membership organization. Stay connected us the opportunities your peers as a resource but also remember that you guar resource to others as well keep those connections going make those moments because they are coming from you as well as toward you and that's important so you did talk about not wanting to give too much information into people but before we wrap up. I'm going to ask you today some signposting so we all going to needs more information for anyone who would like to find out more about this topic in general about your work in particular taylor what some resources you'd recommend okay so i if anybody's interested in the five flames of motivation in the shadows especially for this podcast time game to produce a downloadable p._d._f. Saying that will be on the website at the time this gets out onto the i._t._n.'s. Yes it will also put those in our show notes as well so anything that you hear sophie talking about now there'll be links and offshoots absolutely say <music> get an i i will. You'll get a summary of the compensation. The show notes so saving that i'll put a link to any of the books that you've mentioned on office linked to not find your flame avation matters more than talent and if anybody wants to resource to to talk to that teams or staff then obviously i'm approachable for to pay on podcasts or come taught you organization say. I think we've we've scratched. The surface of a lot of things on this fantastic cost is being really quite fun to record but to go narrow and deep on just one element that can be of huge value so they can find you. You at sophie bennett dot com. That's two ends in two ts trek. Thank you one last thing we need you to do so fee. What's an actionable suggestion one last piece of advice nice you'd like to leave for accounting and finance professionals but help them to go beyond disruption great question well my answers that stay curious because variety the spice of life. We are gonna get faced with all sorts of challenges. We're not gonna see a lot of them coming around the corner atlanta on our doorstep anyway and this is a lovely quote that i heard and i had it verbally so i couldn't trace the source of it but this one well worth keeping in mind which is that we are most comfortable when we are certain but were most alive one more uncertain so don't be afraid to reinvent yourself. The courage stake here is and do your best to see what's coming around the next corner and then you can design your life to make the most of opportunity thank you. Sophie bennett a great place to the conversation today about motivation. The show owners include links to all the resources. We've mentioned there are two other websites would recommend for fearlessness interested in the latest courses webinars and professional development resources to keep ahead of the curve about this and other topics human intelligence and tech. You find those at a._i._c._p._a. My c._p._a. Store dot com slash. Go beyond russian or c._g. Store dot com slash go beyond disruption. Gun have a look fees may apply for some of those but you will find plenty of stuff to pique your interest. Thank you again to our guest. Author had motivation experts sophie bennett. You may be seeing her. Speak look at an accounting and finance professionals symposium sometime in your country soon. But of course we had a right here today. Thank you for listening to this podcast cast from the heart of the city of london from the air c._p._a. And seema on kyle and we'll be back with more conversations to help you and your profession to go beyond disruption until next time could thanks for listening to this episode of beyond disruption brought to you by the association of international certified professional towns learn more about today's topic at a._i._c._p._a. Dash z._i._m. Dot com forward slash disruption this. 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