2224 - The Trump Impeachment Hearings: Ambassador Gordon Sondland Testimony
Hey folks it's November twentieth Wednesday to hear his today's podcast. We got a weird stuff going on. I'm not gonNA mess around with this. We we we have been doing all day coverage of this. We're going to be doing a coverage tonight. Live of the debate you can go to. Sammy Cam dot majority dot. FM At around quarter order of nine. We'll be live with the debate. We had different plans but Sunderland's testimony. This morning was just as opening statement as long is not a lot of me talking in it but it's important it it basically He says in this testimony definitely quid. Pro Quo Oh and he fingers a bunch of other people so here it is. This is the first half if you want the second half of the testimony head over to our Youtube Channel YouTube dot com slash Sam Cedar. You can find out more tomorrow. We're going to be doing a recap of all the impeachment stuff up to this point as well as a recap of the debate but you can tune in for the live debate coverage tonight just a crazy week we're trying to Majett doing You know fifteen hours of of coverage today The Long Day yesterday was also pretty long. Just reminder you can sport this program by going to join the majority report dot Com and when you do you support this program etc etc etc are. Don't forget sign up for the quickey you can do so at. AM QUICKIE DOT com. Get the APP. Majority APP DOT com. You can listen to the quickey you can watch the show you can listen into the show. You can download the podcast. You can stream the podcast. You can call the show you can. I am the show very handy Dandy and it's been super updated for everybody if you have. I'm an updated it in the past like twelve hours do it. Kyle's on it all the time. All right here's the the beginning of the Salmaan testimony that happened Wednesday November twentieth. Starting already get about nine. AM which is it. Is Wednesday November twentieth. Two Thousand Nineteen. The name is Sam Cedar. This is a special majority of port coverage of the impeachment. Hearings taking place in the Longworth office building. The House Intelligence Committee will be talking to e you ambassador Gordon Sunlit and there could be some fireworks some singing singing and fireworks today. We'll get prepared song gun. I'm sorry I really. I don't get a lot of opportunity to do that in a non ironic way that music although the music is still a little bit ironic to things have come came out this morning by the New York Times. One is that Reporting that Mike Pompeo knew exactly what Gordon son-in-law was doing and then in just a moment to go literally seconds ago there's only what headline It's being reported by the Times that's on is going to say that Donald Trump was gave express direction for him to pressure Ukraine. And it seems that you I m e that it seems that someone is GonNa sing now. There was some talk. He may take the Fifth Amendment. He may do that and then immediately get immunity from from Adam Schiff. That's possible and then if if he gets immunity then he can just sing. It doesn't worry about it. He seems to be a laughing jovial laughing and smiling right now which Leads me to believe that he's crapping pants and he's decided like That that's it. Forget about it It's all over for me you and I might as well. There's I just don't see how you show up at the At the hearing giggling and smiling and beaming under any circumstances unless it's totally gallows humor right like like the the only way I can imagine having that attitude is if I'm walking in Sanctum Brandon Mike. I'm totally it's over. It's over what are you gonNA do. I mean doesn't he look like that. Maybe I'm projecting but I just can't imagine in that anybody coming to testify under these circumstances is going to be giggling and even if you felt inclined to Giggle you wouldn't unless you felt like doc it's over because it's an appropriate for me to come and Giggle. I'm not doing the president any benefit by coming in there and defending giggling. I don't know maybe I'm making too much of this but this is this could be the This could be the Big One folks. I'm glad you're you're with us to experience this histories four time in our history that a Hearings have commenced or at least were were initiated. A third time they have commenced I see these images I remember back twenty five years ago more for twenty seven years ago during the Anita Hill hearings. When I started taking pictures of my television creating refrigerator magnets I would mount them on foam core? Put a glue a magnet. Go down to Gotcha can't remember the bar. Now Watch Mark Sam and play and treat her right and Morphine came out of there and I would sell the magnets for money. And so if you're not surprising patronizing kid but here we go. Good morning everyone. This is the fifth in a series of public hearings. The committee will be holding off. Impeachment inquiry without objection. Action Chair is authorized to declare a recess at anytime. There is a quorum present. We'll proceed today in the same fashion as are other hearings. I'll make an opening statement and then ranking member Nunez. We'll have the opportunity to make a statement and we will turn to our witness for an opening statement and then two questions reidents members. We welcome you and respect that you're interested in being here and that's us we're going to refresh without disruption. Go right okay. I'll make all necessary inappropriate steps okay. Contain order to ensure the committee is run in accordance with house rules in House resolution. Six sixty with that. I now recognize myself to give an in opening statements. Today David Hale Under Secretary of State of Public Affairs Laura Cooper from the Defense Department. Here's A. Shift's open. The American ambassador it to the European Union. We are here today as part of the House of Representatives impeachment inquiry because President Donald Trump's not to condition military aid to Ukraine and Oval Office meeting with the new Ukrainian President Vladimir Zielinski in exchange for politically motivated investigations. Trump believe would help his reelection campaign pain. The I investigation was a discredited conspiracy theory that Ukraine not Russia was responsible for interfering in the two thousand sixteen election sec investigation that trump demanded into was into a political rival that he apparently feared most Joe Biden trump's to weaken biden and to refute the fact that his own election campaign in two thousand sixteen have been helped by Russian hacking and Dumping Operation Croatian and Russian social media campaign directed by Vladimir Putin to help trump trump scheme undermine military and diplomatic support support for a key ally and undercut. US anticorruption efforts in Ukraine trump. Put his personal and political interests. Above those of the United States S. Ambassador Sunland would later tell career foreign service officer David Holmes immediately after speaking to the president trump did not give a expletive about Ukraine crane. He cares about big stuff that benefits him like the Biden. Investigation is that Rudy. Giuliani was pushing. Investors on was a skilled dealmaker but in trying to satisfy directive from the president found himself increasingly embroiled in an effort to press the new Korean president that deviated sharply from the norm arm in both terms of policy and process in February ambassador. Simon traveled to Ukraine on his first official trip to that country while Kief he met with an US ambassador to Ukraine Marie Ivanovich and found her to be an excellent diplomat with a deep command of Ukrainian internal dynamics on April. Twenty twenty-first is Alinsky was elected president of Ukraine and spoke to president trump who congratulated him and said he would look into attending Lewinsky's inauguration but pledged to send someone at a very very high level between the time of that call and the inaugural and may twenty trump's attitude towards attitude sued towards Ukraine hardened on May thirteenth president ordered Vice President Mike Pence not to attend Dolinsky inauguration opting instead to dispatch the self dubbed up to three Amigos Energy Secretary. Rick Perry Ambassador Sunland Ambassador. Kurt Volker the special representative for Ukraine negotiations after turning from the inauguration members of the US allegation briefed President trump on their encouraging first interactions with the new Ukrainian administration. They urged the president to meet was Alinsky. But the president's reaction was decidedly hostile. The president's order was clear. However talk with Rudy you during this meeting or Sahlin I became aware of what Giuliani and the president were really interested in? This whole thing was sort of a continuum them he testified at his deposition. Starting at May at the May twenty third meeting ending up at the end of the line. When the transcript of the call came out? It was a continuum he would explain. That became more insidious over time. The three Amigos were disappointed. With trump's directive to engage Giuliani but vowed to press ahead ambassadors. On the testified. We could abandon the goal of the White House meeting for presidents alinsky which the group deemed crucial for us rain relations or we could do as president trump directed and talk to Mr Giuliani to address. The presence concerns turns. We chose the latter path in the coming weeks. Ambassador Solomon got more clearly involved in Ukraine policy-making starting with the June four US mission to the EU Independence Day event in Brussels. One month early Secretary Perry over rectal and the State Department counselor. The State Department counselor and Sunland met with presence Alinsky whom Solomon had invited personally on the margins of the event on June ten twenty one thousand nine Secretary Katori Perry organized the conference call with John Lund then national security adviser John Bolton Volcker and others a reviewed Ukraine strategy with Bolton and decided that Perry Salmon and Volker would assist ambassador. Bill Taylor the new acting ambassador in Kiev Ukraine and discuss trump's desire for Rudy Giuliani. To be somehow involved at the end of the call. According to Sunland we all felt very comfortable with the strategy. Moving forward two weeks. Later on June twenty-seventh Ambassador Song called Taylor to say that quote Zielinski needed to make clear to president trump that he was not standing in the way of investigations on July Tenth Ambassador Sunland and other. US officials met at the White House with a group of US and Ukrainian officials participants in the meeting have told us that ambassador Sunland invoked invoked acting White House chief-of-staff Mick Mulvaney and said that the White House meeting sought by the Ukrainian president with trump would happen only if Ukraine undertook certain investigations Gatien's National Security Advisor Bolton abruptly ended the meeting upon hearing this undeterred. Salmon brought the crane delegation downstairs to another part of the White House and was is more explicit. According to witnesses Ukraine needed to investigate the Biden Charisma and the two thousand sixteen election interference if they wanted to get a meeting. Ask Paul following this meeting. July Bolton said that he would not be part of whatever drug deal sunland Mulvaney are cooking up on. This song continued to press for a meeting but he and others were willing to settle for a phone call as an intermediate step on July twenty. One Tail Texted silent that quote presence. Linski is both sensitive about Ukraine. Being taken seriously not merely as an instrument of Washington domestic reelection politics Solomon reported responded. Wanted absolutely but we need to get the conversation started and the relationship built irrespective of the pretext. So that's Alinsky and trump could could meet and all of this will be fixed on July twenty fifth day of the trump's Alinsky call volker had lunch and cave with a senior hey to creighton presence. Alinsky later texted the aid to say that he'd heard from the White House. Assuming presidency convinces trump. He will investigate. Get to the bottom. What happened in two thousand sixteen? We will nail down date for visit to Washington. Good luck ambassador. Sawn spoke to president trump a few eight minutes before the call was placed but was not on the call during that now infamous phone call was alinsky trump responded to the crane expression of appreciation for US defense support and request to buy more javelin antitank missiles by saying. I would like you to do us a favor. Though trump ASA Linski to investigate the discredited twenty sixteen conspiracy theory and even more ominously look into the Biden's neither had been part of the official preparatory material for the call but they were in Donald Trump's personal interest and the interests of his reelection campaign and the Ukrainian president knew about both in advance in part because of Ambassador Volker and ambassador sunless efforts to make him aware of what the president was demanding around. This time of Astra Salmon became aware of the suspension mention of security assistance to Ukraine which had been announced on a secure Interagency Video Conference on July. Eighteenth telling us that it was extremely odd that nobody involved involved in making and implementing policy towards Ukraine new. Why the aide had been put on hold during August on the participated in conference calls and text messages with Volker Giuliani Johnny and said that the gist of every call was what was going to go in the press statement in August nine text message volkers online stated dated? I think police really wants the deliverable which was according to on a deliverable public statement. That president trump wanted to see are here before a white White House. Meeting could happen on September one ambassador. Sean Lennon participated in Vice President. Pence as bilateral meeting was Alinsky in Warsaw during Richland Ski. Raise the the suspended security assistance following that meeting. Someone approached the senior Ukrainian officials to tell him that he believed what could help them move. The aid aide was Ukrainian prosecutor. General would go to the Mike and announced that he was opening. The Barack Obama Investigation Salmon told Taylor that he made a mistake by telling Ukrainians that an Oval Office meeting was dependent on public announcement of investigations. In fact everything was dependent on such an announcement including security assistance but even the announcement by the prosecutor general would not satisfy the president on September. Seven silence spoke to the president and told Tim Morrison and Bill Taylor about the call shortly thereafter. The president said that although this was not a quid pro quo. If Presidents Alinsky did not clear things up in public we would be at a stalemate moreover announcement by the Prosecutor General would not be enough presidents. Alinsky must personally months announced personally that he would open the investigations. Someone told Taylor that president trump trump is a businessman when a businessman is about to sign a check to someone who owes him something he said the businessmen ask that person to pay up before signing the check check referred to here was the US military assistance to Ukraine and Ukraine had to pay up with investigations throughout early early. September of Awkward. Silence ought to close the deal and agreement. That's Alinsky would announce investigations after Taylor Texted silent on September nine twenty nineteen that I think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign. Sixteen days later the transcript of the July twenty fifth call was made public in the American people. Learn the truth of how our president tried to take advantage of a vulnerable ally. Now it is up to Congress as the People's representatives to determine determine what response is appropriate if the president abused his power and invited foreign interference in our elections if he sought to condition coerce store. Bri I Benelli into conducting investigations to aid his reelection campaign and did so by withholding official acts a White House meeting or hundreds of millions of dollars of needed military aid aide. It will be up to us to decide whether those acts are compatible with the office of the presidency. Finally I want to say a word about the president and secretary pompeo's obstruction of this investigation. We have not received a single document it from the State Department and as Ambassador Sawn Lens Opening Statement Today will make clear. Those documents is bear directly on this investigation and this impeachment inquiry. I think we know now. Based on a sample the documents attached stew embassador silence statement that the knowledge of this scheme was far and wide and included among others secretary of State Pompeo Bill as well as the vice president we can see why Secretary Pompeii and president trump have made such a concerted and across the board effort to obstruct this investigation and this impeachment inquiry and I will just say this. Yes they do so at their own peril. I remind the president that article three of the impeachment articles drafted against President. Nixon was his refusal to obey the subpoenas of Congress and with that I recognize ranking member Nunez for any remarks that he would wish to make thank the Gentleman Colin as we learned last night storytime last night we get storytime first thing this morning Vassar Sunlen. Welcome I'm glad you're here on really not flat. You're here but welcome to the fifth day of this circus. As I've noticed noticed noted before if the Democrats on this committee spent rushing in March two thousand eighteen after a year long investigation intelligence committee Republicans issued a two hundred forty page report describing in detail. How the Russians meddled in the two thousand sixteen elections and making specific recommendations to improve our election security denouncing the report as a whitewash and accusing Republicans of subverting the investigation the Democrats issued their own report focusing on there now debunked conspiracy theory that the trump oh campaign colluded with Russia to hack the elections notably? The Democrats have vowed at the time to present a further quote comprehensive report unquote after they finished their investigation into trump's treasonous collusion with Russia some of their Russia Hoax Democrats failed to issue that comprehensive report. We're still waiting. This episode shows. How Democrats have exploited the Intelligence Committee for political purposes for three years culminating and these impeachment hearings and their mania to attack the president? No conspiracy theory is too outlandish for the Democrats time time and time again. They floated the possibility of some far fetched. Malfeasance by trump declared the dire need to investigate it and then suddenly dropped the issue and moved on to are there next asinine theory a sampling of their accusations and insinuations includes these. He's trump is a long time Russian agent as described in the still dossier the Russians gave trump advance access to email stolen stolen by the DNC. And Hillary Clinton campaign the trump campaign based some of his activities on these stolen documents. Michael Tracy writes enlarged for trump campaign trump laundered Russian money through real estate deals. Trump was blackmailed by Russia. Through his financial exposure Deutsche Bank trump diabolical plan to build a trump tower Moscow. Trump change changed the Republican National Committee Platform to hurt Ukraine and benefit Russia. The Russians laundered money through the NRA for the trump campaign. Shrimp son-in-law lied about his Russian context while -taining security clearance. It's a long list of charges. It's all false and I could go on and on and on spare you for these moments. Clearly these ludicrous accusations. Don't don't reflect committee members who are honestly searching for the truth there. The actions of partisan extremists who hijack the intelligence committee transformed it into into the Impeachment Committee abandoned its core oversight functions and turned it into a beachhead for ousting elected president from office. You have to keep that history in mind as you consider the Democrats latest catalog of trump outrageous granted a friendly only call with the cranium. President wouldn't seem to rise to the same level as being a Russian agent but the Democrats were running out of time if they waited any longer there. Impeachment Circus would intervene with their own candidates. Twenty twenty campaigns. So you have to give them points for creativity creativity in selling this absurdity as an impeachable offense all this explains why the Democrats have gathered zero Republican and support in the House of Representatives for their impeachment crusade. Trust Mush. In fact the vote we held was a bipartisan. Vote against this impeachment inquiry fiery Speaker Pelosi chairmanship and Chairman Nadler of the key figures behind this impeachment crusade all proclaimed that impeachment is so damaging damaging to the country that it can only proceed with bipartisan. Support are those declarations suddenly no longer true it impeachment become less divisive of course not they know exactly what kind of damage they're inflicting on this nation. They've passed the point of no return after three years of preparation. Work much of it spearheaded by the Democrats Kratz on this committee using all the tools of Congress to accuse investigate indict and smear the president they stoke the frenzy amongst their most fanatical supporters that they can no longer control Bassett or you are here today to be smeared. The you'll make it through it and I appreciate your service to this country I'm sorry that you had to go through this. Enclosed Democrats have zeroed in on an anonymous whistleblower whistle blower complaint that was cooked up and cooperation with the Democrats on this very committee. They lied to the American people all about that cooperation. And refuse to let us question the whistle blower to discover the truth. Meanwhile the Democrats Lash Out against anyone who questions or cast doubt on this spectacle when Ukrainian President Zielinski denies anything improper happened happened on the phone. Call the Democrats say that. He's a liar when journalists report on Ukraine election meddling and hundred Biden's position on the board Lord of Corrupt Ukrainian companies the Democrats label them conspiracy theorists when the Democrats can't get any traction for their allegations of quid pro quo. They moved the goalposts and use the presidency not read the opening statement about to give last resort obstruction of justice. The American people send us to Washington to solve problems not to wage scorched earth political warfare against the other party. This impeachment is not helping the American people. It's not a legitimate use of taxpayer dollars and it's definitely not improving our national security charity. Finally the Democrats fake outrage that president trump used his own own channel to communicate with Ukraine. Remind my friends on the other side of the aisle that our first President George Washington directed his own diplomatic channels to secure a treaty with Great Britain if my democratic colleagues were around in seventeen ninety four war. They'd probably want to impeach him to chairman this morning. We've transmitted to you a letter. Exercising our rights under h sixty two subpoenaed documents and witnesses. We take this step because you have failed to ensure fairness and objectivity in this inquiry as such we need to subpoena Hunter Biden and the whistle blower for closed-door depositions as well it's relevant documents from the DNC Hunter Biden's firm Rosemont Zeneca and the whistle blower and the interest of some uh level of fairness. We expect you to concur with thesis. Subpoenas submit that letter for the record and you'll back the balance of my time. I thank the gentleman. It appears that Devon Nunez has not seen Gordon Sunland Sun inlands opening statements this morning because yesterday the I gotta think Adam Schiff is feeling pretty. He's laughing dove right down for State Department ambassador. Sunland was the founder and CEO Providence. Oh tells a national owner operator of full service hotels. Also so predators government service ambassadors Sunland was engaged in charitable enterprises two final points before witnesses worn. I witnessed depositions this. As part of this inquiry were in unclassified unclassified nature and all open hearings will also be held at the unclassified level. Any information that may touch on classified information will be addressed separately second congress will not tolerate any reprisal threat of reprisal or attempt to retaliate eight against any US government official testifying before Congress including you or any of your colleagues if you would please rise and raise your right hand I will begin by swearing. UN Do you swear affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you. God let the record show the witness has answered in the affirmative. Thank you and please be seated. The microphone is sensitive so please speak directly into it without objection your written statement will be made part of the record and without Ambassador Sunland you will now recognized for your opening statement. Thank you Mr Chairman and thank you. ranking member newness. I appreciate the opportunity to speak again to the members so this committee I let me offer my thanks to the men and women of the Department of State who have committed their professional fashionable lives to support the foreign policy work of the United States in particular I want to thank my staff at the US mission to the European Union your integrity dedication and hard work often performed without public acclaim or recognition serve as a shining shining example of true public service. And I am personally grateful to work beside you. Each and every day it it is my honor to serve as the US ambassador to the European Union the US mission to the EU is the direct link between the United States And the European Union and its members America's longest standing allies in one of the largest economic blocs in the world. Every day I worked to support a strong united and peaceful Europe strengthening our ties with Europe serves both American and European European goals as we together promote political stability and economic prosperity around the world. I expect that few Americans have heard my name before these events so before I begin my substantive testimony please let me share some of my personal background. My parents fled Europe. During the Holocaust. Escaping the atrocities of that time my parents left Germany for Uruguay and then in nineteen. fifty-three emigrated to Seattle Washington. Where I was born and raised like so many immigrants? My family was eager for freedom and hungry for opportunity. They raised my sister and me to be humble hardworking talking and patriotic and I am forever grateful for the sacrifices they made on our behalf. Public Service has always been important to make as a lifelong Republican. I have contributed to initiatives of both Republican and Democratic administrations in two thousand thousands of three is served as a member of the transition team for Oregon Democratic Governor Ted Kulakowski Governor Kulakowski also appointed me to serve on various statewide boards in two thousand and seven president. George W Bush appointed me as a member of the Commission on White House. Fellows I worked with President Bush on charitable events for his foundations military service initiative and I also worked briefly safely. Investigators President Joe Biden's office in connection with the Vice President's nationwide answer anticancer initiative at a local northwest hospital and of course the highest honor in my public life came when president trump asked me to serve as the United added states ambassador to the European Union. The Senate confirmed me ask and I assumed the role in Brussels on July ninth two thousand eighteen. Although today is my first public testimony on the Ukraine matters this is is not my first time cooperating with the committee as you know I've already provided ten hours of deposition testimony and I did did so despite directives from the White House and the State Department that I refuse to appear as many others have done. I agreed to testify because I respect the gravity of the moment and I believe I have an obligation to account fully for my role in these events. It's but I also must acknowledge that this process has been challenging and in many respects less than fair I have not had access to all of my phone records State Department emails and many many other State Department documents and I was told I it could not work with my e U staff to pull together the relevant files and information having access to the State Department materials else would have been very helpful to me and trying to reconstruct with whom I've spoken met and went and what was said as ambassador. I've had hundreds of meetings and calls with individuals. But I'm not a note taker or a memo writer never have been. My job requires that I speak with heads of state. Senior government officials members of the cabinet the the president almost each and every day talking with foreign leaders might be memorable to some people but this is my job. I do it all the time. My lawyers and I have made multiple requests to the State Department and the White House for these materials yet. These materials were not provided to me and they have also refused to share these materials with this committee. These documents are not classified and in fairness and in fairness should have been made available in the absence of these materials. My Memory Edna has not been perfect and I have no doubt that a more fair open and orderly process of allowing me to read the State Department records records and other materials would have made this process far more transparent. I don't intend to repeat my prior opening statement or attempt to summarize ten hours of previous deposition testimony however a few critical points have been obscured by noise over the last few days as an weeks. And I'm worried that the bigger picture is being ignored. So let me make a few key points. I Secretary Perry Ambassador Volker and I worked with Mr Rudy Giuliani on Ukraine. A crane matters at the express direction of the president of the United States. We did not want to work with Mr Giuliani simply put. We were playing the hand we were dealt. We all understood that if we refuse to work with Mr Giuliani we would lose a very important opportunity to cement relations between the United States and Ukraine so we followed the president's residents orders. Second good boy. Although we disagreed with the need to involve Mr Giuliani at the time we did not believe that his role was improper as I previously testified. If I had known of all of Mr Giuliani's dealings or his associations with individuals some of whom are now under criminal indictment what I personally would not have acquiesced to his participation. Listen I also had no idea still given what we knew at the time. What we were asked to do did not appear to be wrong? Third let me say precisely because we did not think that we were engaging in improper behavior. Sure we made every effort to ensure that the relevant decision makers at the National Security Council and the State Department -partment new the important details of our efforts the suggestion that we were engaged in some irregular or rogue. UGH diplomacy is absolutely false. I have now identified certain State Department emails and messages that provide vied contemporaneous support for my view. These emails show that the leadership of the State Department. The national no Security Council and the White House were all informed about the Ukraine efforts for May twenty third two thousand and nineteen until the security aide was released on September eleventh. Two Thousand Nineteen. I will quote from some of those messages with you shortly fourth as I testified previously as I testified previously Mr Mr Giuliani's requests were a quid pro quo for arranging a White House visit for president. Lansky Mr Giuliani demanded that Ukraine make a public statement announcing the investigations of the two thousand sixteen election. DNC Server and Barista. Mr Giuliani was expressing the desires of the president of the United States. And we knew these investigations were important. Martin Te to the President V in July and August of two thousand and nineteen. We learned that the White House had also so suspended security aid to Ukraine. I was adamantly opposed to any suspension of aid. I was adamantly only suppo- adamantly opposed to any suspension of aid as the Ukrainians needed those funds to fight against Russian aggression. I tried tried diligently to ask why the was suspended but I never received clearance. Still haven't to this day. Need to know the absence of any credible explanation for the suspension of aid. I later came to believe that the resumption of security aide would not occur until there was a public statement from Ukraine committing to the investigations of the two thousand and sixteen elections and Barista as Mr. Mr Giuliani had demanded. I shared concerns of the potential. quit pro quo. Regarding the security aide. With Senator Ron Johnson and I also shared my concerns with the Ukrainians finally at all times. I was acting in good faith. I was acting in good faith as a presidential appointee. I've followed the directions of the president resident. We worked with Mr Giuliani because the president directed us to do so. We had no desire to set any conditions we had no desire to set any conditions on the Ukrainians indeed my own personal view which shared repeatedly with others was that the White White House and security security assistance should have preceded without preconditions of any kind. We were working to overcome the problems. Given the facts as they existed are only interest and my only interest I was to advance long standing. US policy and to support Ukraine's fragile democracy now let me provide additional details specifically about Ukraine in my involvement. I my very I. Days as ambassador to the EU which was starting back in July of two thousand. Eighteen Ukraine has featured prominently in my broader portfolio Ukraine's political and economic development are critical to the long standing and long lasting stability of Europe moreover the conflict in eastern Ukraine and Crimea remains one of the most significant security crisis for Europe Europe and the United States our efforts to counterbalance and aggressive Russia depend insubstantial. Part on a strong strong Ukraine on April twenty first two thousand nineteen Vladimir's Alinsky was elected president of Ukraine in in in an historic election with the express support of Secretary Pompeo I attended Presidents Alinsky inauguration on May twentieth as part of the US delegation which was led by Energy Secretary Rick Perry the US delegation also included senator through Johnson Ukraine special envoy Volcker and lieutenant. Colonel Alex Vincent of the National Security Council. My attendance at Presidents Alinsky is inauguration was not my first involvement with Ukraine as I testified previously just four days. He's after assuming. My Post is ambassador in July of two thousand eighteen. I received an official delegation from the government of then in Ukraine president. Petro Poor Shinko. The meeting took place at the. US Mission in Brussels and was pre-arranged my career EU mission staff. Half and. I've had several meetings since then in Brussels later in February of two thousand and nineteen I worked worked well with US ambassador. Maria Vich in making my first official visit to Ukraine for a US Navy visit to the Strategic Black Sea port of Odessa. Also the reason I raise these prior Ukraine activities. The meetings in Brussels my visit to desa is to emphasize that Ukraine crane has been a part of my portfolio from my very first days as the US ambassador. Any claim that I somehow muscled my way way into the Ukraine relationship is simply false. During those Alinsky inauguration on May twentieth the the US delegation developed a very positive view of the Ukraine government. We were impressed by presidents alinskyites desire to promote mode a stronger relationship with the United States. We admired his commitment to reform and we were excited about the possibility of Ukraine. Making the changes necessary to support a greater western economic investment. And we. We were excited. That Ukraine might after years and years of lip service finally get serious about addressing its own well known corruption option problems with that enthusiasm. We returned the White House on May twenty third to brief president trump. We advise the President President of the strategic importance of Ukraine and the value of strengthening the relationship with presidents Alinsky to support this reformer Moore. We asked the White House for two things first. A working phone call. Between President Trump Alinsky and second a working Oval Office visit in our view. Both were vital to cement the US Ukraine relationship demonstrating support for for Ukraine in the face of Russian aggression and advancing broader US foreign policy interests. Unfortunately president trump trump was skeptical. He expressed concerns that the Ukrainian government was not serious about reform and he even mentioned that Ukraine rain tried to take him down in the last election in response to our assistant efforts in that meeting to changes inches views. President trump directed us to quote. Talk with Rudy. We understood that talk with Rudy. Meant talk with Mr Rudy. Giuliani Liani the president's personal lawyer. Let me say again. Huck with Rudy. Tock we're happy with this is rudy. Rudy we did not want to involve Mr Giuliani. I believe Dana's I do now. That the men and women of the State Department not the president's personal. The lawyer should take responsibility for Ukraine matters nonetheless based on the president's direction we were faced with a choice. We could abandoned the efforts to schedule the White House phone call and a White House visit between President Trump alinsky which was unquestionably questionably in our foreign policy interests or we could do. As president trump had directed and talk with Rudy. We chose the latter course not because we liked it but because it was the only constructive path open to us over the course of the next several months Secretary Perry Ambassador Volker and I were in communication with Mr Giuliani secretary. Perry volunteered to make the initial calls with Mr Giuliani. Given their prior relationship Ambassador Volker made several of the early calls and generally informed us of what was discussed. I communicated with Mr Giuliani and early August. Several months later. Mr Giuliani emphasized that the president wanted a statement from presidents Alinsky committing meeting Ukraine to look into the corruption issues. Mr Giuliani specifically mentioned the two thousand sixteen election including the DNC server and Barista as two topics of importance to the president. We kept the leadership of the the State Department and the NFC informed of our activities POMPEII included vacations with Secretary of State Pompeo. His counselor Alrich Brek Bull his Executive Secretary Lisa Kenna and also communications with Ambassador Bolton Dr Hill Mr Morrison and their staff at the NFC what Morrison they knew what we were doing. And why on July tenth two thousand and nineteen senior. Ukrainian national security officials met with embassador Bolton Ambassador Volker Dr Hill Secretary Perry myself and several others in Washington. DC during that meeting and we all discussed the importance of the two action items identified earlier. One a working phone call and to you a White House meeting between President Trump INS Alinsky from my perspective. The July tenth meeting was a positive step toward accomplishing pushing our shared goals. While I am now aware of accounts of the meeting from Dr Hill and Lieutenant Colonel Kinman their recollections of those events events simply don't square with my own or with those of Ambassador Volker or Secretary Perry I recall mentioning the prerequisite requisite of investigations before any White House. Call or meeting but I do not recall any yelling or screaming or abrupt. terminations sounds as as others have said instead after the meeting Ambassador Bolton walked outside with our group and we all took some great pictures. Here's together outside on the White House lawn more important. Those recollections of protests do not square with the documentary record record of our interactions with the NFC in the days and weeks that followed we kept the NFC apprised of our efforts. Including specifically specifically our efforts to secure a public statement from the Ukrainians that would satisfy president trump's concerns for for example on July thirteenth. And this is three days after that July tenth meeting I emailed Tim Morrison he had just taken in over Dr Hills Post as the NFC Eurasia director. And I met him that day. For the first time I wrote to Mr Morrison even with these words the call between Zelenskjaja and president of the United States should happen before four seven twenty one. which is the parliamentary elections? In Ukraine sole purpose is for Zilenski to give Podesta's assurances says of new sheriff in town corruption ending unbundling moving forward and and I emphasize any any hampered investigations will be allowed to move forward transparently. Goal is for police to invite him to Oval Volker Prepari- Bolton and I strongly recommend Mr Morrison acknowledged and said thank you and specifically noted that he was tracking thing. These issues again. There was no secret regarding moving forward and the discussion of investigations moreover. I have reviewed other State Department documents. Some of which are not currently in the public domain detailing Mr Giuliani's as efforts for example on July tenth the very same day that Ambassador Volker Secretary Perry and I were meeting with the the Ukraine officials in Washington ambassador. Taylor received a communication that Mr Giuliani was still talking with Ukrainian in prosecutor. Yuri Sankoh in WHATSAPP messages with embassador Volcker and I- ambassador Taylor wrote to us as follows just had a meeting with Andre Inva- deem referring to Ukraine Foreign Minister Vladimir Staccato Taylor said the Ukrainians were quote very concerned about what looks Sankoh told them that according to our g meaning Rudy Guiliani there's a Lansky. Police meeting will not happen. Volker responded good grief. Please tell the deem to let at the official. US government representatives speak for the US. Lutsenko has his own self interest. Here Taylor confirmed that he had communicated that message to the Ukrainians Loot Sankoh has his own self interest. Here Taylor confirmed that he had communicated indicated that message to the Ukrainians and he added. I briefed Alrich this afternoon on this referring to State Department. Counselor Orrick breakf- bull again. Everyone's in the loop. Three things are critical about this whatsapp exchange I while the Ukrainians cranium were in Washington at the White House Mr Giuliani was communicating with Ukrainians without our knowledge ambassador. Taylor Ambassador Volker and I they were all surprised by this second. Mr Giuliani was communicating with the reportedly corrupt Ukrainian prosecutor Lutsenko and discussing whether as alinsky trump meeting was going to happen again without our knowledge and third with this alarming news ambassador. Acid Taylor briefed all rick breakfast. Who is the counselor to Secretary of State Pompeo and even as late as September twenty fourth of this year secretary pompeo was directing Kurt? Volker to speak with Mr Giuliani. Wow in a WHATSAPP message passage. Kurt Volker told me in part spoke with Rudy per guidance from s s is the State Department's official designator for the secretary spoke with Rudy per guidance from S. Look we tried our best to fix the problem well keeping the State Department and the NFC closely apprised of the challenges. We faced on July twenty fifth president. President trump is a landscape had their official call. I was not on the call and I don't think I was invited to be on the call. In fact I I I read the transcript on September twenty fifth the day it was publicly released. All I had heard at that time was that the call had gone well looking back. I find it very odd very odd. That neither I nor ambassador Taylor nor ambassador. Acid Volker ever received a detailed readout of that call with the Biden references. Now there are people who say they had concerns turns about the call but no one shared any concerns about the call with me at the time which frankly would have been very helpful to know on July twenty sixth ambassador Taylor Ambassador Volker and I were all in key of to meet with presidents Alinsky. The timing of that trip immediately after the call between president trump is Alinsky. was entirely entirely coincidental. The key of meetings had been scheduled well before or the date that the White House finally fixed the call during our key of meeting I do not recall presidents alinsky discussing the substance substance of his July twenty fifth call with President Trump. Nor did he discuss any request to investigate Vice President Biden which we all later learned was discussed on July twenty fifth call and this is consistent with the reported comments from Ambassadors Volker. Taylor after this Alinsky meeting I also met with the Lansky senior aide. Andrei your Mac. I don't recall the specifics of our conversation. Shen but I believe the issue of investigations was probably a part of that. Agenda are meeting also on July twenty six in short our Kiev meetings. I spoke by phone with President Trump. The White House which has finally finally shared certain called dates and Times with my attorneys confirms this. The call lasted five minutes. I remember I was at a restaurant in Kiev. And I have no reason to doubt that this conversation included the subject of investigations again. Given Mr Giuliani's demand that presidents Alinsky make a public statement. Eh about investigations. I knew that investigations were important to president trump. We did not discuss any classified information. Other witnesses have recently shared their recollection of overhearing. This call for the most part. I have no reason to doubt their accounts. It's true that the President President speaks loudly at times. And it's also true. I think we primarily discussed a sap. Rocky it's true that the president likes st use colorful language. Anyone who has met with him at any reasonable amount of time knows this while I cannot remember the precise details details again. The White House has not allowed me to see any readout so that call and the July twenty six call did not strike me as significant at the time actually. Actually I would have been more surprised about the president's concerns however I have no recollection of discussing Vice President Biden or his son Sun on that caller after the call ended. I know that members of this committee frequently frame these complicated issues news. In the form of a simple question was there a quid pro quo as I testified previously with regard to the requested White House call call and the White House meeting. The answer is yes. Mr Giuliani conveyed to secretary. Perry Ambassador Volker and others. The president trump wanted a public statement from presidents Alinsky committing to investigations of Barista and the two thousand sixteen election. Mr Giuliani expressed those requests directly to the Ukrainians. and Mr Giuliani also expressed those requests directly to us we all understood that these prerequisites for the White House call and the right White House. Meeting reflected president trump's desires and requirements commits within my State Department emails. There is July nineteenth email. This email was sent. This email was sent to Secretary Pompeo Secretary Perry Brian McCormick. Who is secretary? Perry's chief of staff at the time Myskina. Who is the acting? Pardon me who is the executive secretary up for Secretary POMPEO chief of Staff Mulvaney and Mister Mulvaney Senior Adviser Rob Blair a lot of senior officials a lot of senior officials. Here's my exact quote from that email. I talked to his Alinsky. Just now he is is prepared to receive. Police call will assure him that he intends to run a fully transparent investigation. And we'll turn over every stone. He would greatly appreciate it call prior to Sunday so that he can put out some media about a friendly Lee unproductive call no details prior to Ukraine election on Sunday. Chief of staff South Mulvaney responded. I asked the NFC to set it up for tomorrow. Everyone was in the loop. It was no secret. Everyone was informed via e mail on July nineteenth days. Before the presidential call as I communicated to the team I told presidents Alinsky in advance that assurances to run a fully transparent investigation and and turn over every stone were necessary in his call with president trump on July nineteenth in a WHATSAPP message. Pitch between Ambassador Taylor Ambassador Volker and me either using Volker stated had breakfast with Rudy. This morning that's embassador volcker and Rudy. Giuliani teeing up. Call with your Mac Monday at senior adviser Andrei. Your Mac must have helped opt. Most important is for Zelenskaja to say that he will help. Investigation and address any specific personnel issues. If there are any on August tenth the next day Mr Your Mac texted me once. We have a date which is a date for the the White House meeting. We will call for a press briefing announcing upcoming visit and outlining vision for the reboot of the US Ukraine crane relationship including among other things. BURRI SMA an election meddling investigations. This is from Mr Mr Your Mac to me the following day August eleventh and this is critical I sent an email mill to counselor brek bull and Lisa Kenna. Lisa Kennedy was frequently used as the pathway. To Secretary Pompeo sometimes uh-huh he preferred to receive his emails through her mouth and put them in front of him with the subject Ukraine. I wrote Mike referring to Mike Pompeo. Kurt and I negotiated a statement from Zielinski to be delivered for for our review in a day or two the contents will hopefully make the boss. Happy enough the boss. Being the president to authorize as an invitation Zilenski plans to have a big presser press conference on the openness subject including specifics fix next week all of which referred to the two thousand sixteen and the Barista Myskina replied. Gordon Gordon. I'll pass to the secretary. Thank you again. Everyone was in the loop. Jeez going we need a bigger police cruisers to me on August twenty sixth shortly before his visit to Kiev. Give ambassador. Bolton's office requested Mr Giuliani's contact information for me. I send ambassador Bassett's Bolton the information directly. They require sorry folks. One Sec rain during conversations with Ambassador Basseterre Taylor on July eighteenth two thousand and nineteen however as I testified before I was never able to obtain tena clear. Answer regarding the specific reason for the hold whether it was bureaucratic in nature. which often happens or reflected some other concern in the interagency process? I never participated in any of the subsequent dod or Dos Review Meetings that others have described described so. I can't speak to what was discussed in those meetings nonetheless. Before the September first Warsaw meeting the Ukrainians had become. I'm aware that security funds had yet to be dispersed in the absence of any credible explanation for the hold old. I came to the conclusion that the aid like the White House. visit was jeopardized in preparation for the September. One Warsaw a meeting. I asked Secretary Pompeo whether a face to face conversation between trump and CELESKI would help to break the logjam logjam and this was when president trump was still intending to travel to Warsaw specifically on August. Twenty Second I. E Mailed Secretary Pompeo directly copying secretary at Cana. I wrote this is my email to secretary pump Pale. Should we block time in Warsaw for a short. Pull aside for police to meet Zilenski. I would what asks Alinsky to look him in the eye and tell him. Once Ukraine's new justice folks are in place in mid September that Celeski. He's Alinsky should be able to move forward publicly and with confidence on those issues of importance to produce in the the US. Hopefully that will help. Break the logjam. The secretary replied yes. I followed followed up the next day asking to get ten to fifteen minutes on the war saw scheduled for this. I said we'd like to know when it's locked. So that I can tells Alinsky and brief him executive secretary Kennedy replied. I will try for sure. Moreover given my concerns turns about the security aide. I have no reason to dispute that portion of Senator Johnson's recent letter in which he recalls conversations. He and I had on August August thirtieth by the end of August. My belief was that if Ukraine did something to demonstrate a serious intention to fight corruption and specifically addressing Barista and the two thousand sixteen then the hold on military aid would be lifted. There was a September first. I meeting with presidents Alinsky Warsaw. Unfortunately president trump's attendance at the Warsaw meeting was cancelled due to hurricane. DORIAN vice president pence attended instead. I mentioned the vice president pence before the meetings with the Ukrainians that I had concerns that the delay in aid aide had become tied to the issue of investigations. I recall mentioning that before the end ski meeting. During the actual meeting Presidents Alinsky Lansky raised the issue of security assistance directly with Vice President Pants and the vice president said that he would speak to president trump about it based based on my previous Communication Secretary Pompeo. I felt comfortable sharing my concerns with mystery. Your Mac it was a very very brief pull aside conversation. That happened within a few seconds. I told Mr Your Mac that I believe that the resumption of US aid would likely not occur until Ukraine took some kind of action on the public statement that we have been discussing for many weeks as my other State Department. Colleagues colleagues have testified. This security aide was critical to Ukraine's defense and should not have been delayed. I express this view too many during this this period but my goal at the time was to do what was necessary to get the aid. Release to break the logjam. I believe that the public statement we had been discussing discussing for weeks was essential to advancing that goal. You know I really regret that. The Ukrainians were placed in that predicament. But I do not regret doing what I could to try to break the logjam and to solve the problem I mentioned at the outset set that throughout these events we kept State Department leadership and others apprised of what we were doing. State Department was fully supportive of our engagement in Ukraine efforts and was aware that commitment to investigations was among the issues. We were pursuing to provide just two two examples on June fifth the day after the US EU mission hosted our Independence Day. We did it a month. Early Acting Assistant Secretary. Terry Phil Reeker sent an email to me to secretary. Perry and others forwarding some positive media coverage of presidents Alinsky is his attendance at our event. Mr Reeker wrote and I quote. This headline underscores the importance and timeliness of Zilenski visit visit to Brussels and the critical and the critical perhaps historic role of the dinner. Engagement Gordon coordinated. Thank you for your participation and dedication to this effort months later on September third I sent sent secretary Pompeo and email to express my appreciation for his joining a series of meetings in Brussels following the Warsaw trip. I wrote Mike. Thanks for Schlepping Europe. I think it was really important and the chemistry seems promising. Really appreciate appreciate it. Secretary Pompeo replied the next day on Wednesday September fourth quote. All good. You're doing doing great work. Keep banging away. State Department. Leadership expressed total support for our efforts to engage the new Ukrainian administration ration- look. I've never doubted the strategic value of strengthening our alliance with Ukraine. And at all times at all times our efforts were in good faith and fully transparent to those tasked with overseeing them. Our efforts were reported and approved and not once do I recall encountering an objection remains an honor to serve the people people of the United States as their United States ambassador to the European Union. I look forward to answering the committee's questions thank you. Wow a lot of people thrown under the bus. You needed multiple buses for what just happened is conducted by the Chairman or majority council followed by forty forty five minutes for the ranking member or minority council following that unless I specify additional equal time for extended questioning will proceed under the five minute rule in every member will have the chance to ask questions. I recognize myself or majority counsel for the I had him trying to not look as there's a lot of new material in your opening statement first through but I want to start with a few top line questions before passing it over to Mr Goldman in your deposition testified that you've found yourself on a continuum that became more insidious over time. Can you describe what you mean by this continuum. Uh of insidiousness. Well Mr Chairman. When we left the Oval Office I believe on May twenty third heard? The request was very generic for an investigation of corruption in a very vanilla sense and dealing Ling with some of the oligarch problems in Ukraine which were longstanding problems and then as time went on more specific items got added led to the menu Including the BURRI SMA and two thousand sixteen election meddling specifically the DNC servers specifically and over this over this continuum. It became more and more difficult to secure the White House meeting. Because more conditions additions were being placed on the White House meeting and that of course on July twenty fifth although you were not privy to call and other condition was added that being the investigation Shen of the Biden's I was not privy to call and I did not know that the condition of investing the Biden's was a condition correct. You saw that in the call record correct. It was not in any record I received a when you did. Yes see. I saw that in September correct so On this continuum the beginning of the continuum begins on May twenty third when the present structure to talk to rudy correct. And you understood does the direction by the president that you need to satisfy the concerns. That Rudy Giuliani would express to About what the president wanted Ukraine not to me to the entire group Volker Parry and myself correct in your opening statement. You confirm that there was a quid pro quo between the White House meeting and the investigations into PRISMA and the two thousand sixteen election. That Giuliani was publicly. Promoting is that right correct and in fact you say that other other senior officials in the State Department and the chiefs of Staffs Office including Mick Mulvaney Secretary Pompeo were aware of this quid pro quo that in order to get the White House meeting. We're going to have to be these investigations. The president wanted correct. And those again are investigations investigations into two thousand sixteen and Barisno slash the Biden's 2016 Barista. The Biden's did not come up but you would ultimately learned that Barack Obama met the Biden's when he saw the call record of course today I know exactly what it means. I didn't know at the time and then on July twenty six to confirm you did indeed have the conversation with President Trump restaurant and keep that David. Holmes testified about last last week. Is that right correct. And you have no doubt no reason to doubt Mr Holmes recounting of your conversation with the president the only part of Mr Holmes uh-huh recounting that I take exception with as I do not recall mentioning the Biden's that did not enter my mind. It was Barista in two thousand sixteen elections. You're no reason to believe that Mr homeless would make that up if that's what he recalls. You're saying you have raised a question I do i. I don't recall saying Biden. I never recalled saying biting but the rest of Mr Holmes Recollection is consistent with your own. Well I can't testifies testifies to what Mr Holmes might or might not have heard through the phone. I don't know how he heard the conversation. But are you familiar with sesame vaguely and the only the exception you take us to the mention of the name Biden. Correct that's weird. Why would homes make that up and I think you said in your testimony this morning that not only Is it correct that the president brought up with you investigations on the phone. The day after the the July twenty fifth call but you would have been surprised. Had he not brought that up. Is that right right. Because we'd been hearing about it from Rudy and we presumed Rudy was getting it from the president so will it seemed like a logical conclusion. Homes also testified that you told him. President trump doesn't care about Ukraine rain. The only cares about big stuff that relates to him. Personally I take it from your comment. you don't dispute that part of the conversation. Well he made that clear in the May twenty third meeting that he was not particularly fond of Ukraine. We had a lot of heavy lifting to do to get him to engage. So you don't dispute that part of Mr Holmes recollection now in August when you worked with Rudy Giuliani and a top Ukrainian aid draft a public statement for presence Alinsky to issue that includes the announcement investigations into Arizona. You understood that was acquired by president trump before he would grant a White House meeting presents. Linski that's correct and the Ukrainians understood that as well. I believe they did. And can you inform Secretary Pompeo about that statement as well. I did later August. You told Secretary Pump Pale that presents presents alinsky would be prepared to tell. President trump that has new justice officials would be able to announce matters of interest to the president. which could break the logjam when you say matters of interest the president you mean the investigations that president trump wanted is that right correct and that involved twenty sixteen gene and Barack Obama or the Biden's 2016 embarrassment? And when you're talking here about breaking the log-jam you're talking about the logjam over the security charity assistance correct. I was talking logjam generically because nothing was moving that included the security assistance that Iraq and based on the context of that email. This was not the first time you had discussed us. Investigations with Secretary Pump wasn't he was aware of the connections that you were making between the investigations and the White House meeting and security assistance. Yes did you ever take issue with you and say no. That connection is not very Iran. Not that I recall. You mentioned that you also had a conversation with vice president pence before his meeting with presence Alinsky in Warsaw. Aw and that you raised the concern. You had as well that the security assistance was being withheld because of the president's desire to get a commitment from Dolinsky to pursue these political investigations sagacious. What did you say the vice president? I was in a briefing With several people and I just spoke up and I said it appears that that everything is stalled until this statement gets made something that words to that effect And that's what I believe to be the case based on You know the work that the three of US had been doing Volker Perry and myself and the vice president nodded like you know He. He heard what I said. And that was pretty much it as I recall and you understood that the Ukrainians were gonNA raise the skirt systems with the vice president at this meeting. I didn't know what they were gonNA raise but they in fact did raise it MR chairman. Well it was published by that point that there was a whole skirt assistance correct. Yeah but I didn't know what they were gonNA raise. Yes I didn't get a pre brief from the Ukrainians. Well you knew. Certainly they were concerned about the hold on the skirt assistance right now. We're concerned obviously and you wanted to help prepare the vice president present for the meeting by letting him know what you thought was responsible for the hold on the skirt assistance. That's fair do you recall anything else. The President Vice President presents said other the nodding his head when you made him where this fact now. I don't have a readout of that meeting so I can't remember anything else. And it was immediately after this meeting in between the vice president and Dolinsky that you went to speak with your mock and you told him similarly that in order to release the military assistance they were going to have to publicly announce these investigations. Yeah much has been made of that meeting and it really wasn't meeting what happened. was everyone got up after the bilateral meeting between president the landscape and vice president pence and people do what they normally do they get up they mill around they shake hands. And I don't know if I came over to your Mac or he came over to to me but he said you know what's going on here and I said I don't know it might all be tied together. Now I have I have no idea presuming that it was but it was a very short conversation. Well in that short conversation as you would later relate to Mr Morrison Ambassador Taylor you informed Mr Year. Mock that they would need to invest announces announces investigations. In order to get the do not well Mr Your mock was already working on. Those investigation are on the statement about the investigations and you confirmed for him that he needed to get done. If they were going to get the military aid I likely did Mr Morrison investor Taylor also related a conversation you had with the president following the Warsaw meeting in which the president related to you That there was no quid pro quo. But nevertheless unless Alinsky went to the Mike and Announce his investigations they would be a stalemate over the aid. Is that correct. That's correct and that was an accurate flexing your discussion with the president. Well that email was not artfully written. I'm the first to admit what I was trying to convey to ambassador Taylor after his frantic emails to me and to others about about the security assistance which by the way I agreed with him I thought it was a very bad idea to hold that money. I finally called the president. I believe it was on on the ninth of September. I can't find the records and they won't provide them to me but I believe I just asked him. An open ended question Mr Chairman. What do you want from Ukraine? I keep hearing all these different ideas and theories and this and that what do you want and it was a very short abrupt conversation. He was not in a good mood and he just said I want nothing. I want nothing I want no quid pro quo tell Linski to do the right thing. Something to that effect so I typed out a text to ambassador Taylor in my reason for telling him this was not to defend what the president was saying being not to a pine on whether the president was being truthful or untruthful but simply to relay. I've gone as far as I can. Go this is the final word that I heard from the president of the United States. If you're still concerned you ambassador Taylor still concerned. Please get ahold of the secretary. Maybe he can help. Let's it's not asking about your text message. I'm asking you about your conversations with Mr Morrison and a bastard Taylor after you spoke with the president either in that call or in a different call. I'm confused Mr Chairman which conversations with Mr Morrison and Mr Tell. Mr Morrison testified that you related a conversation you had with the President President in which the president told you know quid pro quo bought presence. Alinsky must go to a microphone and announced these investigations investigations and that he should want to similarly. You told ambassador Taylor that while the president said no quid pro quo. Unless the Linski announced these investigations they would be at a stalemate presumably stalemate over the military assistance. Do you have any reason to question those conversations that Mr Morrison and bastard Taylor took notes about well. I think it's tied to my techs Mr Chairman because in my text I think I said something to the effect that he wants to lend ski to do what he ran on I believe is transparency etc etc.. which was my clumsy clumsy way of saying he wanted he wanted these announcements to be made again bathroom? Not asking about your text message. I'm asking about what you related laid to ambassador Taylor and Mr Morrison about your conversation with the president. Do you have any reason to question their recollection of what you told them. All all I can say is that I expressed what I told or what the president told me in that text and if I had to relate anything other than what was in that text I don't recall you don't recall I don't recall. You have no reason to question ambassador Taylor or Mr Morrison of what they wrote in their notes about your conversation with them. Could you kindly repeat what they wrote. I'll have Mr Goldman go through that with it'd be great. Well let me get to the top line here embassador Sahlin. You've testified that the White House meeting that presidents Linski ski desperately wanted and that was very important to presence Linski. Was it not absolutely. You've testified that that meeting was conditioned was a quid pro quo for what the president wanted these two investigations and that right correct and that everybody knew it correct now that White House meeting was going to be an official meeting. Between the two presents correct presumably it would be an Oval Office office meeting hopefully a working meeting working meeting so an official act correct and in order to perform that official act. Donald Trump wanted one of these two investigations. That would help his reelection campaign correct. I can't characterize why he wanted them. All I can tell you is. This is what we heard from. Mr Giuliani Johny. But he had he had to get those two investigations. If that official act was gonNA take place correct he had to announce the investigations. He didn't actually them. As I understood it. Okay presents Linski had to announce the two investigations. The president wants to make a public announcement correct correct and those were great value to the president. He was quite insistent upon them and his attorney was insistent upon them. I don't WanNa characterize whether their value. Oh you not value again. Through Mr Giuliani. We were led to believe that. That's what he wanted. Well you said. Mr Giuliani was acting at the president's demand. Correct right when President says. Talk to my personal lawyer Mr Giuliani. We followed his direction. And so that official act of that meeting was being conditioned on the performance of these things the president wanted as expressed directly and through his lawyer. Rudy Giuliani correct as expressed through Guiliani. Johny correct and you've also testified that your understanding it became your clear understanding that the military assistance was also being withheld pending Zilenski announcing these investigations. Correct that was my presumption my personal presumption based on the facts at the time. Nothing was moving. And in fact you had a discussion communication with the sector state which you said that logjam over aid could be lifted if off the Linski announce investigations right. I did not. I don't recall saying the logjam over eight. I recall saying the logjam. That's what you've meant right investor. I I meant that whatever was holding up the meeting. Whatever was willing up our deal with Ukraine I was is trying to break again I was presuming? Well here's what you said. In your testimony moment ago page eighteen but my goal at the time was to do what was necessary to get the aid released to break the logjam. Okay that's still your testimony right so eighty the military aid is also an official act. My right yes. This is not president. Trump's personal bank account. He's writing a check from this. Four hundred a million of. US taxpayer money is not absolutely and there was a logjam in which the president would not right that U. S.. Check you believe until Ukraine announced these two investigations. The president wanted correct. That was my belief mister gold. Thank you MR chairman in your opening statement Ambassador Sunland you you detailed the benefits that you have gained gained from obtaining some additional documents over the past few weeks. Is that right in terms of refreshing my recollection that right because because review reviewing these documents has helped you to remember the events that we're asking about is that correct correct because you acknowledge of course course that when you can place a document and date and context it helps to jog your memory. That's correct and so you would agree that for people unlike yourself l.. Who take notes that? That is very helpful to their own recollection of events. I think asked your question backwards. Are you saying people that take notes. It's helpful to have those documents or people don't take notes. It's helpful to have those. No you are not a notetaker right. Not a notetaker. Never have been but you would agree that people who do take contemporaneous notes generally are more able to remember things than people who don't some yes and there are additional documents that you've been unable to obtain. Is that right. That's correct. And I think you even said in your opening statement at the State Department prevented you and your staff from trying to gather more documents. Is that correct certain documents. Yes which documents documents documents that I didn't have immediate access to and who at the State Department prevented you from doing that. I opted asked my counsel. He was dealing with them. But certainly based on the the additional memory that you have gained over the past few weeks from reading the testimony of others based on their notes and reviewing your own documents assignments. You have remembered a lot more than you did when you were deposed. Is that right. That's correct and one of the things that you now now remember is the discussion that you had with with President Trump on July twenty sixth in that restaurant in Kiev right. Yeah what triggered. My memory was someone's reference to a sap rocky. which was I believe the primary purpose of the phone call certainly so that's one way memory works isn't it and and you were sitting in a restaurant with David Holmes in Kiev right having lunch? I think I took the whole team out to lunch after the meeting and it was a meeting one on one meeting you had with Andre Earmark again trying to reconstruct never took very busy. He Day without the benefit mentally. If someone said I had a meeting and I went to the meeting then I'm not GonNa dispute that and particularly if that person took notes at that meeting correct or sat outside the door when you didn't let them in I have no control over. Who goes into a meeting in Ukraine? That was the Ukrainians that didn't let him in. When you would also met with presidents Alinsky among others that day is that right? That's correct and you called president trump from your your cell phone from the restaurant. Is that right. That's right and this was not a secure line. Was it no. It was an open line. Did you worry that a foreign government may be. You're listening to your phone call with the president of the United States. Well I have unclassified conversations all the time from landlines that are unsecured and cellphones funds. If the topic is not classified and it's up to the president to decide what's classified and what's not classified and we were having. He was aware that it was an open line as well. And you don't recall the specifics of holding your phone outside far away from your ear ear as Mr Holmes testified but you have no reason to question his recollection of that do you. I mean it seems a little strange. I would hold my phone on here. I probably had my phone close to my. He claims to have overheard part of the conversation. And I'm not going to dinner with the president. Well he also testified. Lied that you confirm to President trump that you were in Ukraine at the time and that presidents alinsky quote loves your ASS UNQUOTE UNQUOTE. Do you recall saying that. It sounds like something I would say. That's how president trump and I communicate a lot of four letter words. This case three letter sometime. He heard President trump ask quote. Is he meanings. alinsky GONNA do the investigation to which he replied he's going to do it. And then you added. The president's residents Alinsky will do anything that you many president trump asked him to. Do you recall that. I probably said something to that effect because I remember for the meeting. The president our president the Leninsky was very solicitous is not a good word he was just very willing to you. Work with the United States and was being very amicable and so putting it in trump's speak By saying he loves your Ashville do whatever were you want Matt that he would really work with us on a whole host of issues. It was not only willing. He was very eager right. That's fair because Ukraine crane depends on the United States as its most significant allied. Isn't that correct. One of its most absolutely so just so we understand you. You were in Kiev. The day after president trump spoke to presidents Alinsky on the phone. And you now know from reading the call record that in that phone call. He requested a favor for presidents Alinsky to do investigations related to the Biden's Haydn's and the two thousand sixteen election right. I do now know that. Yes and you met with presidents Alinsky and his aides on the day after that phone call and then you had a conversation with President trump from your cell phone from a restaurant terrace. And he asked you whether Presidents Alinsky will do the Investigations Sion's and you responded that he's going to do them or it and that presidents Alinsky will do anything you ask them to do. Is that an accurate recitation. Of what happened there I it could have been words to that effect. I don't remember my exact response. But you don't have any reason to dispute Mr Holmes recollection collection correct. I won't dispute it but again I don't recall after you hung up with the president. Mr Holmes testified about a conversation that you and he had where he says that someone's getting Mr Holmes that the president does not care about Ukraine crane but the president used the more colorful language including a four letter word that you just referenced to just referenced. Do you recall saying that to Mr Mr Holmes again. I don't recall my exact words but clearly the president beginning on May twenty third when we met with him in the Oval Office was not a big fan but he was a big fan of the investigations. Apparently so and in fact Mr Holmes said that you do that you said that president trump cares about the quote big stuff that benefits himself. Is that something that you would have said at the time I. I don't think I would have said that would've honestly said that. He was not a big Fan of Ukraine. Any wants the investigations that we have been talking about for quite some time to move forward. That's what I would have said because that's the fact. Mr Holmes also remembers that you told him in giving an example of the big stuff. The Biden investigation. That Rudy Giuliani was pushing. Do you recall that I doubt I recall call Barista. I'm not Biden. And but do you recall saying at least refer referring to an investigation. That Rudy Giuliani was pushing. Is that something that you likely would've set I would've yes now. Barista was there. Don't buy specifically. Let's be clear mentioning the Biden investigation to David Holmes. We know that it was certainly on president. Trump's mind because just the day before in his call with presidents Alinsky he mentions specifically the Biden investigation. I want to show you that exhibit on the Cau- aw right like he just blew the code on that cousin and trump says the other thing. There's a lot of talk about Biden's son that Biden. Stop the prosecution and a lot of people wanna find out about that so whatever you can do. With the attorney general would be great Biden went around bragging that he stopped. Stop the prosecution so if you can look into it it sounds horrible to me. President Zilenski then responds with a reference to the company that he's referring to do and two witnesses. Yesterday said that when Presidents Alinsky actually said the company he said Barista so you would agree that regardless of whether you knew about the connection to the Biden's at the very least that you now know that that's what president trump wanted at the time through the Barista investigation. I now know it all of course and at this time you were aware of the president's desire along with Rudy Giuliani to do these investigations including the two thousand sixteen election. Interference Investigations. I right. That's correct and you said. President trump directed you to talk you and the others to talk to Rudy Giuliani at the Oval Office. On May twenty third. Is that right if we wanted to get anything done with Ukraine it was apparent to us. We needed to talk to rudy right. You understood that. Mr Giuliani spoke for the president correct. That's correct and in fact. President trump also made that clear to presidents Alinsky in that same July twenty fifth phone. Call Paul he said. Mr Giuliani is highly highly respected. Man He was the mayor of New York City a great mayor and I would like him to call. Oh you I will ask him to call you along with the Attorney General Rudy. Very much knows what's happening. And he is a very capable guy and after this president trump then mentions. Mr Giuliani twice more in that. Call now from Mr Giuliani by this. This point you understood that in order to get that White House meeting you wanted Presidents Alinsky to have and the president's Alinsky desperately wanted to have off that Ukraine would have to initiate these two investigations. Is that right well. They would have to announce that they were going to do it. Right because because Giuliani and president trump trump didn't actually care if they did them right. I never heard Mr Goldman anyone. Say that the investigations had to start or had to be completed needed. The only thing I heard for Mr Giuliani or otherwise was that they had to be announced in some form and that form kept changing that value announced publicly Komo trump's recognize that there would be political benefits to a public announcement as opposed to a private confirmation right well the way it was expressed to me. was that the Ukrainians had a long long history of committing things privately and then never following through. So president trump presumably again communicated through Mr Giuliani. Johnny wanted the Ukrainians on record publicly. That they were going to do these investigations. That's the reason that was given to me but you never heard anyone say that. They really wanted them to do the investigations justice. I didn't hear either way. Now Your your July twenty six call with the president was not the only time that you spoke to the president surrounding that Ukraine trip was it I believe I spoke to him before or has called. And that's that would be on July twenty fifth the day before. Yeah I think I was flying to Ukraine and I spoke with him if I recall correctly just before I got on the plane. So that's to private telephone calls with President trump in the span of two days. Is that right correct. You had direct access then to president trump correct. I had occasional access when he chose to take my call. Sometimes he would. Sometimes he wouldn't well. He certainly took your call twice as it related to Ukraine on these days. Is that right yet now. The morning of July twenty fifth. You Texted Ambassador Volker and we could bring up the next text exchange at seven fifty four. Am and you said. Call Asap Ambassador Asser. Volker did not respond to you for another hour and a half and he said Hi. Gordon got your message. Had A great lunch with earmark and then passed your message to him. He will see you tomorrow. Think everything in place Volker though an hour before that in about a half an hour before the phone call had texted under a a year. Mark a top aide for presidents alinsky. And he wrote good lunch. Thanks heard from White House. Assuming president. Zee convinces trump. He will investigate. Get to the bottom of what happened. In Two thousand sixteen we will nail down date for visit to Washington. Good luck. See You tomorrow ambassador son than was this message. Is that Kurt Volker Pass to Andre Year. Mock the message you left for Kurt Volker on that voicemail that he referenced. I don't remember Mr Goldman that it very well could have been. You don't have any reason to think it wasn't right again. I honestly honestly don't remember but seems logical to me honestly honestly testified that he did get that message from you you have no reason to doubt if he testified. He got that message from me than I would. If you're ever GONNA convict crimes the president trump and that phone call that morning again. If he testified to that to refresh my memory then yes likely I would have received that from president trump but the sequence certainly make sense right. Yeah does you talk to president trump. You told Kurt vocal or call you. You left a message for Kurt Volker Kurt. Volker voelker sent this text message to Andre earmarked to prepare presidents Alinsky. And then you. President trump had a phone call where presidents Alinsky spoke very very similar to what was in this text. Message right right and you would agree that the message in this that is expressed here. Is that president. Zilenski needs to to convince trump that he will do the investigations in order to nail down the date for a visit to Washington. DC is that correct. That's correct now. I'm going to move ahead in time to the end of August and early September when you came to you believe I believe as you testified that it wasn't just the White House meeting that was contingent on the announcement of these investigations that the president wanted wanted but security assistance as well. You testified that in the absence of any credible explanation for the hold on security assistance. You came to the conclusion that like the White House visit. The aid was conditioned on the investigations that president trump wanted. Is that what you said. In your opening statement it is so. Let me break this down with you by this time. You and many top officials knew that that coveted White House meeting for four presidents Alinsky was conditioned on these investigations. Right the announcement of the investigations. Thank you and that includes Secretary Pompeo right many many people. And what secretary bumpy. Oh yes and acting chief of Staff Mulvaney. Yes and you testified that this was a quid. Pro Quo is that right right. I did and at this point by the end of August and knew that the aide had been held up for at least six weeks. Is that correct. I believe I found out out through ambassador Taylor that the eight had been held up around. July eighteenth is when I when I heard originally and even though you searched for reasons you've never given a credible explanation is that right. That's right and no-one you spoke to thought that the age should be held to your knowledge. Is that right. I never heard anyone advocate for holding the aid and now by this point at the end of August it went public in the Ukrainians. Knew about it right. I believe there was some press reports you know presuming or who knows but I think at that point became sort of common knowledge that everything might betide together and in fact presidents Alinsky brought it up at that September. First Meeting with Vice President Pence that you're at right I don't know if he brought it up specifically uh-huh but asked where the aid was I think was more I think he he sort of asked again very vague recollection. Because I don't have a readout of the of the bilateral darrelle meeting. But why don't I have my check. Essentially and you you understood that Ukrainians received no credible explanation. Is that right. I certainly didn't couldn't give them one so this kind of a two plus two week. Four conclusion that you reached pretty much the only logical conclusion to you that given all of these factors that the aid was also a part of this quid pro quo. Yep Now I want to go back to that conversation that you had vice president pence right before that meeting in Warsaw and you indicated that you said to him that you were concerned that the delay in the aid was tied to the issue investigations. Right I I don't know exactly what I said to him. This was a briefing attended by many people and I was invited at the very last minute. I wasn't scheduled to be there but I think I spoke up at some some point late in the meeting and said it looks like everything is being held up until these statements get made. And that's my personal belief vice president pence just nodded his head. I again I don't recall any exchanger where he asked me any questions I think he was sort of a duly noted. Well he didn't say Gordon. What are you talking about now? He did not. He didn't say what investigations he did. Not Now after this meeting. You discussed this pull aside. You had with Mr Year mark where you relayed your belief that they needed to announce these investigations prior to the aid being released. Is that right. I said I didn't didn't know exactly why. But this could be a reason. And obviously you had been speaking with Mr earmarked for quite a while about a public announcement of these investigations right. We had all been working on toward that end. So you indicated to him that in addition to the White House meeting security aide was now also involved in that I as I said I said it could have been involved. Yes now I'm gonNA show you another text exchange. You had on September first. Where Ambassador Taylor says to you? Are we now saying that security assistance and White House. I've meeting are conditioned on investigations. And you respond. Call Me Ambassador Taylor recalls that he did call you and you did have a conversation. And in that conversation you told ambassador Taylor that the announcement and of these investigations by Presidents Alinsky needed to be public and that that announcement was conditioned end on that announcement would ultimately release the aid. Do you recall that conversation with embassador Taylor again. My conversation with embassador Taylor. My conversation with Senator Johnson were all my personal belief just based on as you put it. Two plus two equals equals four. Well in that in his testimony ambassador Taylor says that you said that president trump had told you that he wanted presidents Alinsky to to state publicly as of September. I do you have any reason to doubt ambassador. Taylor's testimony which he said was based on his meticulous contemporaneous contemporaneous notes. President trump never told me directly that the aid was conditioned on the meetings. The only thing we got directly from Giuliani was that the response in two thousand sixteen elections were conditioned on the White House meeting. The aid was my my own personal guests based again on your analogy. Two plus two equals four. So you didn't talk to president trump when ambassador. Basset Taylor says that that's what you told him. Is that your testimony here. My testimony is I never heard. From president trump that aid was conditioned on an announcement announcement of elections. So you never heard those specific words Iraq right but never heard those words and let's move ahead because you have another conversation sation in in a little bit later that both Tim Morrison and Ambassador Taylor Recount but in this September prefers conversation ambassador. Taylor also says that testified under oath that you said that president trump wanted Zilenski in public box. Do you recall using that expression yet. Goes back to my earlier comment. That again. Coming from the Giuliani source because we we didn't discuss this specifically with President trump that they wanted whatever commitments Ukraine made to be made publicly so that they would be on the record and be held old more accountable. Whatever those commitments were you also testified investor? Taylor rather testified that you told him that you had made a mistake. In telling rolling Ukrainians that only the White House meeting was conditioned on the announcement of the investigations and that in fact everything was including the security assistance. Do you remember saying that when I referenced a mistake I what I recall was I thought that. A statement made by the new Ukrainian Ukrainian prosecutor that these investigations would be started up again or commence would be sufficient to satisfy Mr Giuliani slash president trump. As I recall my mistake was someone came back through Volker otherwise and said No. It's not GonNa do if the prosecutor Peter makes these statements. The president wants to hear it from Dolinsky directly. That's the mistake I think I made. Do you have any reason to question ambassador. Taylor's testimony based based on his meticulous and careful contemporaneous notes. I'M NOT GONNA question or not question. I'm just telling you what I believe I. I was was referring to let me fast fast forward a week and show you another text exchange which may help refresh your recollection on September eighth. You had a you. Send a text to ambassador Taylor Taylor and Ambassador Volker. Can you read what you wrote their guys multiple condos with celeski protests. Let's talk and so this September Eighth at eleven twenty in the morning uh-huh and ambassador Taylor responds immediately. Now is fine with me. And if we could go to the next exchange ambassador Taylor then fifteen minutes later says is Gordon and I just spoke with twenty minutes later rather I can brief you if you Gordon. Don't connect speaking to embassador Volker. Then ambassador Taylor an hour later. Peter says the nightmare is they give the interview and don't get the security assistance the Russians love it and I quit. You would agree that in this text message after you had spoken that earlier. An hour earlier with ambassador Taylor that he is linking security assistance to this interview this public announcement. The president's Alinsky is that right absolutely and in fact ambassador. Taylor testified that you did have a conversation with him at that point and he did and that you told him that just as your text message indicates you did have a conversation with president trump prior to that text message rush. Does that help to refresh your recollection that you in fact spoke to president trump. At that time again I don't recall president trump ever talking to me about any security assistance. Ever what this tells me refreshing. My memory is that by the eighth of September it was it was abundantly really clear to everyone that there was a link and that we were discussing the chicken and egg issue of should the Ukrainians go out on a ledge and make the statement that president trump wanted them to make and then they still don't get their White House House visit in their aid. That would be really bad for our credibility. I think that's what he's referring to. So you do acknowledge you spoke to president trump as you indicated in that attacks right if I said I did I did and that after that conversation use were still under the impression that the aid was contingent on these public public announcements. I did not get that from president trump but I was under the impression that absolutely it was content. Well you weren't dissuaded then right because you still thought that the aid was conditioned addition on the public announcement of the investigations after speaking to President Trump by September eighth I was absolutely convinced it was and president. Trump did not dissuade you. I love that in the conversation that you acknowledge you had with him. I don't ever recall because that would have changed. My entire calculus of president trump had told me directly. I'm I'm not asking him. I'm just saying you still believed that. The security assistance was conditioned on the investigation. After you spoke to President Trump yes serrano from a timeframe standpoint. Yes Ambassador Taylor also testified that Mr Morrison both of them testified you told them that president trump said there was no quid pro quo which you also included in that text message that you referred but then you went on and they had let's light variations as to what you told them. But then you said that to ambassador Taylor that presidents Linski himself not the prosecutor general needed. It's a clear things up in public or there would be a stalemate and Mr Morrison recounted something similar. You don't have any reason to doubt that. Both of their very similar recollections of the conversations they had with you. Do you ambassador Sunland. Let me break that down. Mr Goldman the text as I said about the no quid. Pro Quo was my effort to respond to ambassador. Taylor's concerns to go to president trump. Apparently Ambassador Taylor had access to Secretary Pompeo he did not have access to president trump. So I made the phone call. I said what do you want. President didn't trump responded with what I put in the text. And then I strongly encouraged ambassador Taylor to take it up with the secretary and he responded minded. I agree when I said that as far as the other part of your question relating to whether or not the prosecutor securer could make the statement or Zilenski could make the statement. I don't recall who told me whether it was volker whether it was Giuliani or whether it was president trump trump. It's gotta be Zelenskaya can't be the prosecutor but that's what I related. Whoever I got that information from I relate that to I believe both Mr or or excuse me ambassador Taylor and to Mr Morrison but as of September ninth you understood did you? Not that president trump either himself or through his agents required required that presidents Alinsky make a public announcement of the two investigations that president trump cared about in order to get both the White House meeting and and to release the Security Assistance Zachary. I believe that is correct. Chairman you back conclude are forty five minutes. I now recognize Mr Noon this okay. Why don't we take five or ten minute break? Thank you okay. So they're taking a five minute break. It's it's been a long time. The the I guess the the newest information is that Gordon Sunlen through just about every single senior member of the foreign policy and national security apparatus rattus under the bus. He made it quite clear that Mike Pompeo knew exactly what he was doing. He might quite clear that John Bolton knew what he was doing doing and wonders begins to make sense as to why John Bolton was so urgent to get to get there and be the guy to speak. He's one of the few people who was trying to get the The committee to call him to come and speak in front of it but he was trying trying to look for the cover of being compelled by court Mike Palm. Heo was fully aware of what he was doing. So apparently apparently wasn't morrison and feeling a hill and the but names. I haven't even heard of Sunland. I went to great lengths to make it to attempt to assert that he did not know that Burris MMA meant Biden which is consistent with. What Volker did yesterday I guess it's conceivable that the only person who knew that Investigate Burris MMA was code for investigate. The Biden's was Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump and down and trump blew it for everybody by saying it on a call that was transcribed but that seems highly unlikely particularly since we have the testimony. That's GONNA come tomorrow. Oh of David. Holmes who is sitting with Sunland the day after the phone call in July uh-huh and sunland according to home said he just wants to Biden's investigated now I don't know how homes is low level apparatchiks ratchet would have any idea that. That's what Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump wanted without hearing it from in his I guess Superior Sunland and I have a feeling. That's exactly what what they were what they're setting setting up here. I mean homes is going to testify to this tomorrow. I think Son Lindh's attorney is probably said like look as long as you keep saying. You don't remember on this account you you don't take notes. You're probably safe. You've given them enough. That they will not come after you. And but the whole argument that there's no quid pro quo by the Republicans would sort of hurt by Sunland. Sunland saying there was a quid pro quo Devon Nunez. It felt like in his opening had not read the public release. I mean the so literally at the moment that Devin Nunes started started his opening remarks. NBC tweeted out that it had the opening statements of sunlit and it wasn't complete but it was enough that you saw him say I've heard reports where people argue whether there's a quid pro quo let me say yes. There was a quid pro quo like literally that's tweedy said. And then he went on to say everybody knew what I was doing there was no irregulars. We were all regulars. He threw rudy under the bus the most but he told that. And meanwhile devin nunes is saying. You'RE GONNA you're here is the fall guy and and There's no quid pro quo. We've never heard anybody say there's a quid pro quo. It's I think I suspect that at Adam Schiff really really. I mean you could see it. Where after the after Sunlen delivered delivered his testimony? It looked like Adam. Schiff was one of those moments. I think everybody has had those where you're just like. Musk control mouth. Do not have huge smile here because Nunez walked right into it walked. Walked right into this buzzsaw. Now I imagine Nunez. We'll we'll talk more about The dossier in his questioning questioning of of Sunland and then you'll hear Castro Let's hear what Well we're not we're not hearing it but Adam Schiff is out out there. He is basically you know. Look there's a political process. Of course he is out there making sure that he can characterize that testimony smart to take those five minutes Of the White House meeting of the Security Assistance to get the deliverable present one at these two political investigations. That he believed would help us. Reelection campaign campaign was basic quid pro quo. It was the conditioning of official acts for something of great value to the president. These political investigations instigations. It goes right to the heart of the issue of bribery as well as other potential high crimes or misdemeanors but we also have I heard for the first time that knowledge of this scheme was pervasive. The Secretary of state was aware of it. The Acting Chief of staff was aware of it and of course at the very top Donald Trump through his personal lawyer and others was implementing it And so this I think only only goes to underscore just how significant the president's obstruction of this investigation has been We now can see the veneer has been torn away just why Secretary Pompeo and President Donald Trump do not want any of these documents provided to Congress because apparently they show is a basket on his testified that the knowledge of this scheme to condition official acts White House meeting and four hundred million Lian insecurity assistants to an ally at war with Russia was conditioned on political favors. The president wanted for his reelection. So Bob. I think a very important moment in the history of this all right. I think what we should do is let's now reset the Reset the The video let's do it now as opposed to at noon even when it's going to be right in the middle of the Republican questioning of of of of him and we'll do that and we can do the ads and we'll do all that stuff and this'll be the The podcast today okay. So let's can we start that. Can we create a new event. Folks we're going to we're going to shut off in about About sixty seconds. We're GONNA shut off for about thirty seconds and then we'll come right back with this stuff. They all going to the bathroom or they come back into the room. Someone only goes to the bathroom now with the whole cadre if people just let's wait until we're ready to go So you know. We're we're sort of freelancing dancing here last night the hearings with Volker and Morrison went late into the evening and one of the things that stood out for me for Morrison and you know we should pick check out those clips and we will what we intend to do is for tomorrow's Program to basically have highlights from The different testimonies that we've heard over the course of the week but the big one from Morrison yesterday Morrison is the National Security Adviser on Ukraine. Morrison is an interesting figure. He after the phone call went immediately to the SE lawyer to report the call just that it happened with according according to him for no other reason than just to say it happened and a very strange thing to do. If you work in a company that has compliance officers. I want you to contemplate. How many times have you gone to the compliance officer to say? Hey just here letting you know that we did a transaction transaction and there were no problems with it whatsoever for no reason. I just wanted you to know that this is also a guy who claims that he had planned to resign back in August a job that he got the sometime in June that was a rather prestigious position unclear. Why he he had made that decision to resign after that phone call? Incidentally according to his testimony Volcker Kerr also yesterday came out and said like I had no idea that Burris Memento Biden's and that seems to be essentially. What's what's going on? You had different people who were closer to the heart of the matter. Bill Taylor was on the outside of it. Sunlen was in the heart of it sending it out to all the extremities. As he is testified today people his superiors voelker was sort of somewhere between Taylor and Sunlen and I would be I mean it really does does appear that Volcker and Sunlen must have made some had some understanding that neither one of us are going to know what burris communes even though. We're taking Where we're instructed to go through Rudy Giuliani? Even though we're we're talking to our counterparts who have gotten the message from Rudy Giuliani our Ukrainian counterparts. The it never came up. We're led to believe that now. I think the reason why the Democrats are not pressing. That point with them is because they don't have to because at the the end of the day. Donald Trump said the biden's so they don't need to make that That point are we ready to shut down. Start back up okay. We're GONNA WE'RE GONNA shut shutdown. We're going to start back up. Stick around we'll put a link in the existing Description of the existing video and will lead you right there to their foot. We'll be back in twenty seconds thirty seconds forty five.