The Last Dance, Re-living the Demise of the 90s Bulls, and the NBAs Quarantine Bubble With Bill Simmons | The Mismatch
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The money goes directly to world central kitchen in its charitable donation once again. That's the ringer dot com slash W. C. K. And now time for the mismatch welcome to bring NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon join me every Tuesday from the ringer dot com. It's Kevin O'Connor AK Kevin Obama Kevin Concert Kevin O. Climber Kevin O. Controversy Kevin O. Comment Caravan. What's going on Chris. We get a special guest. Don't we we do have a very special guest big boss? Bill Simmons has dropped in for today's ringer. Mba show. Hello Bill. What an honor so proud to be here so happy froude honored bill all right we have to start with like everybody in the free world. Watch the last dance the other night. It appears Draymond. Green did too and draymond green went on a podcast yesterday. uninterrupted W RT s after. Show party with Paul Rivera and Maverick Carter. No less And he likened their last season with Kevin Durant the warriors to what he had just watched on. Tv with the last season of the Bulls and he didn't hold back and he said one of the things from watching it. Was that what you saw? Is everybody kind of set it up like this is going to be the last year and so there was none of that elephant in the room hanging out there for their team That last warriors team with Durant and said that you know. Steve tried to deal with it but Kevin was asked about it every day. Dream on saying I want to be a warrior for Life Klay say and I want to be a warrior for life and then there was this elephant in the room the entire year and it was almost as if he watched the last dance and thought Jeez They handled that a lot. Better like hanging out there the whole year. Everybody knew that was going to be the end and so they just treated it that way the whole year. What you guys think. I mean ownership didn't handle it better. The player of the players may have the players may have handled it at worst. And Scottie Pippen you know getting the surgery when he did wanting out you know Jordan thinking was selfish but ownership on the warriors side of things. At least their goal is building with sustainability. They WANNA keep steph curry and Klay Thompson and continue winning. Reisen Dorf in Krause and the Bulls were ready to pull the plug after the first three championships. Trying to trade pippen for camp granted that still a win but then after it it's about China. Tear Down Arriba. I don't see that from the warriors now but it is fascinating. How much history has repeated in some ways with the disease of more and whatnot that manifested with Katie? Always being jealous of steph curry in the spotlight that he received and you look at what the Bulls went through in the nineties. I it is hard to see the parallels from the players side. We think I didn't see it. I just think Jerry mind was a I think he was a little narcissistic with it is totally different situation. Durant in that situation is basically the Rodman character. Rodman was on the Bulls for three years. Durant shows up for three years pushes him to another level but other I mean the bulls thing was so different Jordan and pippen were together for you know twelve years and there were Phil Jackson for. I don't know it was at least nine or whatever and everything was the same and they were just going going going and they had all these different ups and downs and that warriors thing you know they durant was on that team for blip was if you add up when when he actually showed up and then when he left. It's less than three years. It's like thirty months It's not a perfect comparable for for either team. But I do think you know the players you know seeking that attention. Wanting what's there's at I think with that aspect there's some similarities but overall though I mean I'm with you in the sense that ownership in front office objectives here are far different in what the Bulls wanted to do in the nineties with Crowson. Reisen Dorf is far different than what the warriors are trying to do with Myers and and warriors ownership. Now right I mean the differences with the warriors thing. It was one person undermining the whole thing. Durant yeah the Bulls thing it was. It was like a bad marriage with you. Know eight nine different people. All knowing like the marriage is ending and I think with the warriors they kept trying to pull durant back in that second season when he was there was when it started to fall apart in the third season. I still feel like they felt like it might be salvageable until they had that clippers game and then after that I think there are some similarities with the chemistry. Let's say let's say this. Let's say draymond. His way would have played out the way he wanted to write like. I don't buy for one second. If Kevin Durant started that season said this is my last year with the warriors it still would have been a problem like the right here the whole year by the way. He should have done that though. That's how he should have handled it and I think part of the problem is he didn't handle it that way. And you know the players and the team new organization. They knew he was leaving. They knew about all the New York stuff they thought it was gonna be the Knicks but they knew he was leaving. It was by especially by February march ever in the league new so I think from that standpoint underminded what's the elephant in the room. That draymond talking about that. You know what I'm saying if they all had this understanding Kevin. Ain't going to be with US after this year. Then why is he acting like it was a problem throughout the entire year? That Kevin was just saying Oh. I don't know we'll see we'll because I think Kevin probably agree with this. I think there was still hope that he might do a one eighty. You know I I think that. And honestly with the with the ninety eight balls and you're gonNA find out in the tenth part it came a lot closer to everybody coming back except for Rodman I I think they knew Rodman was done but I think once they actually won. I think there was a moment there where they were like Holy Shit. What are we doing? We gotTA defend this again. I think with the warriors they were always trying to pull durant back and even if you think about the playoffs before he got hurt remember how credible he was A. I mean the first rounded half like this guy is clearly the best player in the League and then he gets hurt. I still wonder if they had won the title with him. Kevin do you think he leaves? They win the title. Do you think he's like all right guys. I'll see you later. Part of be still wonders if that actually happens but you know. That was part of the reason it went. Well maybe they always had that hope like you said I mean everybody knew everybody was talking about it as you mentioned that. Katie was likely leaving for people thought the Knicks of the time. And that's more in the back seat. It seemed until he actually made that decision. But I mean you just don't know sometimes when it comes to hearing what players are thinking in hearing players designs. Arcadi or anybody else sometimes. It's dangerous to ride that wave. 'cause you know one week it's one thing the next week at something else because that's what it is for players. They changed their mind. Just like any other people do so especially hit war yes especially Katie and so for the warriors it would make sense not to assume a hundred percent. Katie's leaving despite everything that's happening right now and for them obviously. It didn't work out but they want to titles of them It was great to have him and moving forward for that team. At least they're trying to continue winning and I mean they're going to be right there at the top championship contention as soon as basketball resumes. Chris I I will say this. I think if you put that kind of ninety three to ninety eight stretch of the Bulls in the modern era with twitter and the way we cover basketball. Now I don't I don't think it survived until nineteen ninety eight especially the pip and stuff you think about like 'cause we knew believe me. I was there for all of this. We knew what PIPPA was doing at the time when he got his surgery and it was a story but it just basketball wasn't covered the same way he almost left out in the dock like he almost got traded to the Celtics Ninety seven and that was a that was a big draft. A thing where it was going to be the number three and six pick in the nineteen ninety eight number. One Pippen. Patino is trying to do that as his first big move and by all accounts almost happen. You think about that trade. It would have been chauncey. Billups was Ron Mercer. Could've been T- MAC. Could take a t max six. And then the ninety eight first. Rounder is Paul Pierce that that so thank God for the Celtics. That didn't happen but you know. He was in trade rumors for that. He was in trade rumors for Shawn. Kemp I think him specifically making as little money as he was making. That deal went along I I think that would create. I think the Internet and just the day to day of it. He would've gone crazy. Why didn't they try them? They almost did. They did. Did REINSDORF step in on that? Because you've got a guy who clearly said. I play my last game in a bulls uniform and then they say that he you know He. Requests a trade. You know that cross wants to trade him. Why did it Trae does not happen? It was Jordan right. Well it's a little Jordan but I think ultimately They should have made the celtic straight. I mean honestly they if you think about that trade where you're getting a third pick six pack and a future unprotected number one the following year for guy who can leave in a year like it's almost like kind of criminal. They didn't do that the other one. When they almost did the Shawn Kemp trade which I can't remember what year that was but camp hadn't had any problems yet like he was still like it looked like he was a Carl Malone type guy and I think that was earlier that might have even been in the early nineties I'M GONNA look it up after Kevin starts talking but But I remember that one that would have been a really fun one too because I think Jordan could have changed the trajectory of Kemp's career. You know Kemp Kemp was the guy who ended up having a lot of problems In Jordan had this knack of either he brought the best out of you or he discarded you. You know somebody camp who was just so talented. One of things I love about. This. Doc is just. I feel like Kevin's generation. I'm I'm GonNa Throw Kevin on the bus. The Kevin Generation like they just weren't there for Jordan and I don't mean to be like the I was there guy but it was really interesting watching the reactions where people are like Holy Shit Jordan had sixty three against the Celtics stuff that I've just known my whole life and I just forget sometimes that if you're under thirty why would you know this. Why would you have a Jordan opinion? You know and the other thing is you and I Bill We grew up. And you'd Watch the O. Clips and you're like. Yeah Right Bob. Cousy dribbling around with one hand. He's probably not scoring now. There's no way you could watch all those Jordan highlights and think that doesn't translate to what we watch each scoring now. It's not like our our group would watch old highlights and it seemed like a distant memory And you watch those guys and you go. They would get swallowed up in a league now whereas there's nobody that can't watch that and like he's he says what is anybody. That's in the League today. I mean you watch you watch pippen highlights and today thinking about Ooh Magin him in today's league five position versatility in the defensive van he'd be a big point forward running the show greater the average like six seven assists during the nineties. Three as you probably be empowered to be the full time point guards. I mean there's a difference in that aspect for sure I mean I've said this before. I've said it's hard for me as someone who was born in nineteen ninety two when comes to the goat debate. You Know Lebron and Michael Jordan whoever else you want to throw in that Corinne debate. It's hard for me to be part of that as someone who didn't live through Michael Jordan. I've said that before and I think it's nice to have this documentary for people my age or younger much younger. That weren't even able to experience Jordan while it was happening even a little bit producer. Bobby's producing this podcast. He probably thinks like Steph. Curry is the greatest of all time. Twenty four already ever heard of Michael Jordan slowed down a little bit. I had hardwood classics. Have Gone Back and watch what point of playing basketball in high school to just go back and watch all the Jordan finals rounds but that was about it. You're right I didn't live through it day today so I didn't really understand like the mentality of the players. He was going against which I know is obviously a big thing that people use in the argument for Jordan. Just nobody ever thought they were going to win. So the biggest thing now. I feel like I missed out on young on this Chris. The it's not. The thing is not a debate. The only way Lebron is even in the consideration is just for the duration of how long he's played but I think by the time people finish this ten parts. They're just gonNA feel stupid. Jordan took out every every single rival. He had for an entire decade he vanquished of them and he was the best at everything and you know especially some of the younger people are like well. You know he look in his three point. Shooting percentage or whatever say it's like if Jordan had known three pointers we're GONNA be as important as they became in two thousand twenty. Guess what he would have been the best three point shooter. He just would've shot a million of them and he was shot forty five percent from three. He was athletically like perfect. And you watch you. What you'll see is this thing. Goes along his footwork? His athleticism his intelligence the way he could breakdowns of like Kirk. Goldsboro had peace with the shot charts from the last two years. He is by far the best mid range shooter. Ever you know this was a guy with people play in real defense on them. Who would make like fifty five percent of his seventeen eighteen footers? There's never anything like it. Even Kobe who was doing a Jordan impersonation like just was not on the same level. So I'm excited. That people actually are like really realizing how good he was. Lebron's career is still being written. Though not over yet there could be more championships to come. There can be no more. Who knows but it's still being written and that's another reason why. I think it is a bit hard to compare the two when when Lasagna well and it comes down to twenty five years of Lebron verse fourteen years or whatever and and at some point it just keeps playing and playing say like he had a greater career but I. I don't think you could say he was a greater player. He just wasn't you. Were talking about the media coverage and how much different it is now. And I know you've seen this footage you in fact said with Ryan you got to look at this years ago when you were trying to put together a Horton Doc. I wonder everybody now. Every kid your kids. My kids they Kevin for that matter. They grow up with a camera in their face right. They know how to act on camera. I'm interested in what this footage is going to show and being that you have already seen what we are going to see going forward. Is there any chance? Another team would allow a camera crew to be embedded as this one was once upon a time for answer that the draft night nineteen ninety four. It was pippen for Shawn Kemp Ricky Pierce. And they swapped first round picks. Wow and that was like the Bulls. Try and rebuild. Because they didn't know if they're gonNA have Jordan back so that happens they're getting camp right is he's becoming like Karl Malone basically Yes so with that footage and stuff you say the the second half of this documentary. The last five episodes really starts diving into that ninety eight season in the playoffs and all that stuff and The thing I loved about it was it was like the weathering Jordan that I'd always heard about and I remember the. Oh Six all star game. I wrote a whole piece about just randomly sitting at the table next to him at the four seasons when he showed up with his friends and started playing cards and was like bullying people. And just being like cocky competitive Jordan and it was like. Oh this is the guy that everyone wrote about. And I think there's pieces of that in the dock and I people are going to really like it. It's not a hundred percent. Flattering for him. Either and I I I give him credit for being like fucking put it out there But for for the camera crew thing so Kobe I know. Kobe recorded like the last two years of his career and had a camera crew going everywhere and there was a famous story about That I am. I'm sure is true. I don't know if it's public but says the fucking aggregate are going to get in this but De Ngelo Russell apologizing to the team for the Nick Young thing and the whole teams in there and he's like all motion and then like halfway through. Kobe showed up with this camera. Crew was like what the fuck you guys doing starts making fun of A. He's actually like has the carers taping it but That footage is is starting to take on a life of its own to for people like oh I something. I'll tell you what would be the same as this but now that what happened with Kobe I think there will be some mystique with it. Was it was so set up because I was at a game. Where is Kobe's last season and he came here and there's a TV timeout right? So like you're nobody that you have to be the in the arena to see this and I'm not kidding you at the time out there over by the Lakers bench. A camera crew runs out. I'm talking with lights. And the whole thing and he and he brings the ref over like Bill Kennedy or somebody and he's talking. I'm like they are filming a fucking movie. See Yeah in the middle of this game. I'm like this is sanity. I've never I what is happening here. Another example was in the summer. Two thousand ten and weighed and by film their whole free agency thing and this was pitched us as a thirty for thirty. Wow but the funniest thing is. They didn't realize they had to get permission from the different teams and most of the teams were like. No fuck you taping our free agent pitch so they ended up. I think I think Ironically Daryl Morey was the only one who signs so there's video of Daryl Warriors Free Agency pitch with Chris. Bosh Ringer Doc. Yeah so those guys have had that forever. And I don't know if Dwayne Wade in putting it in his team but they had this. That was the era Kaz. Thirty thirty had already happened. And that was the the first year when athletes were like. Oh I can control my own narrative and the content. That's when Lebron does the decision that's the only way to have a camera crew sudden and then it kind of evolves to where we are now with these guys. I I just think were there. Were too familiar with these guys now. I don't think it would have the same kind of SPA. I would always feel like it was an infomercial. You know like Libron had a camera crew out. Oh is be like well. Why is he doing this? What are we are we seeing the real Lebron or like what? He wants us to see what I liked about this Jordan from ninety eight was it's the real Jordan and you see you're going to see in future episodes like the thing that struck me. Eleven years ago was Kinda how weird his life was where he couldn't go anywhere and he's just hanging out these four security guards and he's in a hotel suite at the Games he's hiding in the officials room a here. He has no human interactions. He was so famous way more famous than any athlete. We have now is so he was like the Beatles. He couldn't do anything so that was what his life was like. And I think that's why he would retired anyway debates for most valuable player and focusing on player analytics like the Greek Freak. Pr taken a back seat. 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We're GONNA talk about some of the things that we that we didn't know in the dock or that we took away from the dock and I am always most interested in people personally and like how became how they became and there was one thing that I didn't know that stood out to me probably the most that I I always feel this way when I'm reading a book and I'm like Oh that's why he's that way and it's this clip and it's not one that got played a lot of play but his dad is talking about. He basically says these got the older brother. His Dad favors the older brother. And Michael is the kind of kid that if you ask them for a Phillips head screwdriver he might give you a pair of pliers. I say go hang out with your mom and then you have this moment. Where older Jordan is saying like traumatic to grow up that way and that he was always trying to prove to his father or Dane. His father's attention and it's interesting because all three of US had sports dad's there some element of what drove us to what we like. Is that our it signifies moments with our father and our father pay pays attention to us because we're so involved in sports so we're not athletes but you always try to figure out like why is he like this. Why does he work harder than everybody? Why is he wired like this? And I don't even have to be like some kind of pop psychologist just watching that. I'm thinking like this whole this whole idea of father's approval which has been around since the beginning of time and I never thought I'd hear Michael Jordan say something about his childhood traumatic and yet here it is. He's talking about rolling up in his house fighting with his brothers and fighting for attention. And you do kind of get a window into. Oh that's why he wants to rip your heart out you know. He's been doing that since he was a little kid. It was crazy to me shows. How much personality in in our childhood shapes who we become. I mean Michael Jordan's. They mentioned both. My parents always taught hard. Work gave him hard lessons competitive family overall and that essentially activated and shaped him to become one of the most competitive men in history. And then you have Scottie Pippen. Who had his father and his brother who were confined to wheelchairs. And he's from intense poverty and that helped make him into the competitor who he wasn't shaped some of the choices he made like we saw. What signing the salary to in order to support his family it shows. How much background is needed when it comes to draft decisions when it comes to personnel decisions and it makes us all of us as people who are backgrounds. I definitely think. Kfc in his eighty seven draft guide would have loved pippen. Kfc was minus seven years old. I think he fucking loves. He loves him. Look rebuil- my story of like in the same thing that there with Rodman episode three these guys that are six one six two and they go to college and then they grow five. Six seven inches. Pippen grew five inches in college. Yeah but they're so they have point guards bodies and then all of a sudden go from six one two six seven and they keep all the skills which is the same thing that happened to Rodman. Rodman went from like five nine. Two six eight in a year and a half pippen thing is insane. And I don't think and I think this is because when you're robbing your story doesn't get told as much. I don't think that that's got enough. Play that the kid went to. He wasn't even he didn't. I always thought he went to Central Arkansas to play basketball and he wasn't. That good coming out is school. And that's why he went to Central Arkansas. He wasn't even on the team right he was. I mean for a kid and now that I went to a school it is the most important thing in the world to somebody from an NA AA school could go number five. I mean it would never happen again. Ever you would get some division one power five school would find out about you and by your sophomore year you would have transferred somewhere but Scottie Pippen going from not a player but in equipment manager on an Noaa school to the number five pick in the NBA draft might be the most incredible thing ever. Well the other thing with that. I don't know if the if the DOC I it's really good I don't know if it totally captures in the first two parts were Jordan. Meant to kids and teenagers. Because I was. Yeah Obviously Diehard Boston Fan I love Jordan and Jordan was like our guy you know we'd always heard about Dr J. and Connie Hawkins Eligibility for these guys Jordan was like. Oh this is our guy. His posters were cool. He had ads here. He had all these things and by the time. We got to the eighty-seven draft. Everybody wanted him to have better teammates. 'cause the Celtics Day it's glossed over this dark but the Celtics killed them for two straight years. They they won all six playoff games too so when they were all right a lot of blow outs when they took pippen and they traded up and it was like they had the eighth pick. Seattle the fifth pick but it was a good draft. We knew it was a good draft. And you look back at it like we thought Dennis Hopson was going to be good. He wasn't but Reggie Williams was Georgetown Guy. Thought he was going to be good Scottie. Pippen Kenny Smith Kevin Johnson Horace Grant Reggie Miller and it was like I really hope the Bulls get somebody good and they took pippen and it was like what the fuck this Guy Central Arkansas like showing the clips of them and it looked. You know like the Jaanus Greek. Ymca clips where you just like. What is this is that and it was also a time when you know everybody. Really Watch college basketball the same way. Like Casey's like one of five people have to watch his college basketball obsessively in eighty seven. We all knew who all the guys. We're we're watching everything. And when they when they ended up with him it was like motherfuckers. Like why are you fucking around with Jordan? And like you gotta get gotTa get him. Somebody good and we had no idea and it was early. It was apparent that first year it was like Oh shit you know he was so athletic? You could just see you knew he was going to be something. Even as a rookie does cross deserve more credit than it seemed. He got in those first two parts of the documentary for Building. This thing out into the team that it was. There's no question I think. So there's no question I mean look. Those are bold moves now. You took a kid from NASA school and traded up to take a kid from school that if that doesn't work out and you passed on somebody like bill that's on TV and everybody is aware of that is obviously fireable. You've got he trades Jordan's best friend which I thought it was very fascinating for Jordan. Yeah it made us a better team. Yeah that was a big deal at the time because oak was better than cartwright right. The trade date in one hundred percent makes sense when it happened because Oakley was like twenty four twenty five and was really good. Here's one thing that wasn't explained. Either that stood out to me was I had no idea how Jerry Krause got that job but they just gloss over the fact that Jerry. Krause is a baseball scout. Who OBVIOUSLY SCULPTURE JERRY? Reinsdorf and goes. I want to be the general manager of the Bulls. And it's like okay and that's how we got the job like what was it about it's ten episodes. It's forty nine minutes and episodes so you can't do everything and I'm with you. Like the craft stuff crested a really good job like the. Ku Coach pick and him coveting coach during a time. When foreign guys either Serena Marshall Onus was the first foreign guy that even came into the league that was like nineteen eighty nine? Maybe something like that. And Petra Vick was coming and divide showed up on the Lakers. But it's still pretty early to be like I'm all in on this coach. Guy And it's funny. How much they they'll go into this in a later episode but Jordan and pippen like really resented the coach saying they really tried to like destroy him the at the Olympics and meanwhile this is like the perfect guy to play with them he could play three positions that he can handle the ball. But I'm with you. I think cross was just a really petty asshole you know and I think a baseball scout get an NBA GM job when rival the owner. Because you know it's it's it's worse than that. It was the eighties. Like crazy stuff happens you go back and you look at you. Had owners like Ted steapy and the Cleveland cavs owner. They traded so many first round pick. Said so like. Make a rule. You'd Sterling Sterling like moving the clippers from San Diego to La and getting alone from Jerry Buss and one of the things that I I didn't hear anybody bring up those fascinating to me as you're watching it and part of the reason that this guy get kicked around so much is a weird dude anyway. But he's the short fat guy who never played any sports and the players. I must tell you the. Nba Now is littered with the Non Athletes Yameen. He's really ahead of his time in Yang. The Guy who's not just some dopey former athlete. Who was given the job In order to in order to put together team obviously we've had great guys that are built championship teams Joe Dumars Jerry West on and on former players. That were great at the job. There's also a lot of former players who were not great at the job but you have that data element of that a lot. Yeah you have that whole element of the players like resenting a guy or just not respecting a guy at all that does exist now you have to really earn it by being very smart and earned players trust when you are not a former player and now the league is filled with non former players as GM. There's not many that are Phil. Phil had something to do with that. Though I I think I don't know how I can't remember. How much goes into this during the during the show but You know it's like if your parents are in a divorce. The parents can turn the kids against the other parent right. Everybody all the Bulls Love Phil. And if he hates Jerry Krause and they're not talking he's subtle different ways to to really turn them against crafts. And I and I think it goes into the pippen part and the second episode. It went too far the PIP and stuff. And if you read the book by Halberstam goes really into him. Just like Berating Krause and the bus in like a really ugly way where like Holy Shit we have to trade this guy but I think with the crowd stuff. You know. The the thing that he didn't get enough credit for was the Phil Jackson move where Collins was doing well like that team was competing in the playoffs. He was only there a couple of years and he. He saw something and moving fill in when he did. I think aloud at least that ninety one title. I thought that was a ballsy move like. Kfc would have written a huge piece about that if they did that. Now is the equivalent of even know. Whoever successful coach is spooked? And that guy. Everybody was like what they're firing. Doug Collins was surprising I think the last one is when they kept going to the Eastern Conference finals the Pistons and then they moved off a carlisle and hired Larry Brown. Yeah Good Point True. Probably like something like that. Kfc what else stood out. Well Phil Jackson. Though to that point I mean he was. He was coaching a team called the Albany protrudes from eighty to eighty seven when he got hired as a bowls assistant and rising. Dorf did mention. That Krause deserves credit for giving Jackson an opportunity. And I mean I brought up krause because I feel like Reisen. Dorf sort of has evaded. Blame the way we've talked about this show since since then within the documentary itself. I mean he's the guy who he himself said he was told. Don't touch krause. He has a way of alienating people but he said I wasn't hiring someone to win a personality contest. I wanted somebody who truly believes in building a team the way I wanted them to and Kraus was that guy and he let this chaos develop over the years. I mean at some point. He made the choice between Krause. And Phil and Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen I think Reisen Dorf at that time. Probably should have pulled the plug on Jerry. Krause hired someone else into that job and move forward with Phil Jackson Michael Jordan. And maybe Scottie Pippen and it makes me wonder though how much of it from rising doors perspective was. I don't want to pay Phil Jackson the money he wants. I don't WANNA pay Scotty. Pippin THE MONEY. He wants his rise. North over the years has been notoriously cheaper owner after winning five championships. Was that part of it when it came to his decisions at the time that really pushed krause to change everything I mean. Carlson obviously deserves blamed for you know the petty things that he did and for the way he was. But it's just a little odd to me that rise endorphin sort of you know scooted by here without any blame. Chris should we correct cassie? And how he's saying Ransdorf's name or no. I was GONNA go. I wanted. I wanted to go the whole episode. I like Risa Dorf though. Because it feels Ryan stores talking about can feel better that thing with the thing with Phil Jackson. When they actually made him the coach he was like the guy in the Knicks. Who was the hippie? Who had long hair? Who wrote a book called Maverick? That's one of the ten most unbelievable. Mba books like talks a lot about drug use and things like that. It's great you can't even find it on Ebay And and it just kinda seemed him even when he became an assistant coach. Phil Jackson's assistant coach like he just had this reputation as being this kind of Zen hippy. Guy It's crazy. What happened but you look at the relationships. He had over the years. You know he he. He's kind of drama Queen. You know you put him in the situation. Look at all the stuff that happened. Within the Lakers he quit the Lakers. He came back a year later. D- are then it ends up quitting again and you know. I think he kind of fed off this stuff too so you put him Rodman Pippen Jordan. Kraus Reisen Dorf of you could give them historical perspective to this. Because it's not really broached in that in the episodes that we have seen so far maybe it will as it goes forward but there is a we know as the years went on. The there wasn't impending lockout like add happened. And how much is that in the calculus of what happens with this thing being brave enough hundred percent in the calculus I? It was like I'm trying to think of modern be times when this happened. I guess two thousand eleven was like this because if I remember I was writing about a lot in two thousand ten and eleven for ESPN and great land especially the two thousand eleven playoffs. Were you'd knew something bad was going to happen. And then something bad happened In this case the League was out of Control The rookie contracts people being able to opt data deals and the CAP was outta whack like MJ. Mid Thirty three million his last year in. I don't even really know how that worked with the CAP or I. I don't understand why they couldn't have fixed. Pippen contract things like that The other thing that they didn't really go into enough I I didn't feel like in the dock just explaining the pippen contract which is fine because you only have so much time but like pippen's real screw up was he had a six year rookie deal and after year four year allowed to sign an extension which he did because he wanted to save guaranteed money but the extension at which I think was a five year extension. So people are saying seventy or eighty million dollar deal. It actually wasn't. He had two years left on his rookie deal. And then you added the five-year extension after it. So when he was playing in the ninety one ninety two ninety two ninety three seasons under his rookie. Contract didn't get the new money at and the extension hasn't even kicked in versus. If he had just ridden a now he would have been a free agent after the ninety three season and he would have made like you know five times as much money as he lays out in the dock he just wanted to security because he had to take care of all these people back in Arkansas and that was the part. That really sucked. Because I wasn't stupid for him do that. He was trying to lock down enough money to take care of these people. He didn't care about nine hundred ninety eight but then is your in the contract. You're like Oh what did I do well and this is crazy because I didn't. I didn't remember this until I saw somebody mentioned it. The other night his agent actually lives not far from me. I see him all the time. It's Jimmy Sexton is he. Runs College football now right nick. Saban's agent he's everybody's agent and Jimmy was very very young because he's Jimmy had he. He went to college at Tennessee and he had a started. The whole thing with one client. And that was reggie white a and so we had reggie white and he started this Athletic Resource Management Out of Memphis Tennessee. No less and then he got this kid from Arkansas. Scottie Pippen so I mean. He was very young agent at the time. I need to find out how that all played out. Because I think it's easy for us to watch that. In retrospect and be like man. That was so dumb but like look man you got to frigging people in your own house in a wheelchair like yes. It is no way that you don't constantly have this feeling of it. Could all be taken away from me any day I better? I better get this while I can. You know. Got Him back apprising as much as it did either. I mean it was what seventeen million dollar cap when he signed the deal and it was like forty forty five million when when he signed the next one as you said bill he did. Make it back with the the new deal. The Portland contract. He signed was ridiculous. Amedee made he ended up making more money than Jordan. Did as a as a player but then the funny thing is he goes back to Jay talks about this. He goes back to the Bulls after his Portland Contract and Oh three and science. Two years ten million. And he's just done he's like this and I'm getting these fuckers back. And he plays twenty three games for the Bulls. It makes ten million bucks which was like half of what he made for them the entire time but yet if he had been a free agent in in ninety three I have you done really well and he would have been that that could have been the end of the Bulls Dynasty right there so in a weird the fact that he signed that goofy extension probably enabled the last titles. You didn't see the Pippen's wife tweet the other night. When everybody was lamenting how chronically underpaid he was she tweeted out a pitcher of Scottie. Pippen and said thanks for your concern. Scotty did okay. And then it says career earnings a hundred ninety nine dollars. Oh I wrote a piece two years ago about when it looked. Lebron might not have a team to go to after eighteen about how Jordan's last season he kinda didn't have anywhere to go. That was one of the reasons he retired. She go back and you look at that. Ninety nine lockout ends. Everybody has more money to spend was only like seven contenders had cap space. And the rockets were one of the seven. And in retrospect if Jordan had wanted to play again he's friends with Barkley Barkley Hakeem. They had the money. Give Pippen that contract. It would have been interesting. If Jordan's Ike I want I don't WanNa stop playing. I'll go to the rockets and play with Barclay for Barclay and Keam. I'll do a one year deal. Whatever PIPPA go somewhere else. There's a lot of what ifs from that lockout because one of the things that happened all the sudden it got solved and it was like this ten day free for all that was a little bit like member and To December two thousand eleven when the lockout ended and all hell broke loose. And it was like the Chris Paltry it's happening and guys are signing left and right. It was a lot like that and you know I. I'm sure that's going to happen again. When is the next potential cow? Kfc Twenty twenty four. However I mean with everything happening now. They're opening up for could open up. Cba negotiations sooner. So we'll see if that twenty twenty four days. Yeah because I mean how could we even know what basketball related income is this year? Well that's the part that I haven't and there's no way to write about it but what happens to the salary cap next year that the teams are already talking about that? 'cause you know the southern caps cut and dried based on revenue and if between all the revenue they lost in China the regular season games they lost and if the playoffs come back in July. There's GonNa be abbreviated playoffs. There's going to be ad revenue that they lose the cap for next season could go down by twenty five million bucks twenty million. I don't know I don't even know what the exact number as and you look at a team like Golden State and they have curry Klay Thompson and wiggins just those three make like a hundred billion dollars next year. I have no idea how this is gonNA work. I don't know if it'll drop by that much. But it's going to drop at least some amount and that's going to change the whole equation for what we've been talking about this this past year and all that when it comes to teams are going to have maxed out of space. We talk about the Knicks. Having Double Max slots in twenty twenty one. They may not have one or they'll have maybe only one and not much else to do. And it's GonNa change the whole equation. Kfc The might almost have to do some weird formula with it right where it's like the salary cap. It's really eighty boat. Let's pretend it's a hundred so we can have more maneuver bet late? They might have to create some formula to make it more competitive because it's GonNa favor the teams that have the contracts locked in already in. That's the weird thing about you know so everybody's talking about players. Salaries are getting with health. And I think the way that's been perceived by the public that owners or keeping the money from the players on this but that's not the way it is it's the Bri basketball rated income that split fifty one percent for players for nine percent to the team so the share remains the same. You know a player a player whether he gives back money in his paycheck now or gives it back in August or September is making the same amount no matter what. And it's a bit interesting that you know. Revenue is what's determining the percent of the players receiving yet with the salary cap. It still counts. As that exact number players rating thirty million he counts as against a cap is thirty million. Even though because of everything happening he might only actually make twenty five million and so I wonder if maybe moving forward it should be. Maybe percentage of the salary cap. You know that's what a player makes. Yeah I think what you laid out is probably going to happen but there's GonNa be some ramifications because the the MAC salary just won't be as high and if you go back to ninety nine member K. G. signed that member. Chris what was it like one hundred twenty five million for six years something like that. He's making twenty million a year but then but then it switched. They put in the new cap after the lockout. And the Max Guy could only the most you could sign for was six years I think one and Marbury Marbury was pissed off about is cagey teammate. And he could. He could only make like sixty percent. What Cagey was any? Couldn't get over and was like I need to be a franchise guy on my own team. I think I bet we see that with some MBA guys. You're going to have situations where somebody's banking thirty. Five billion and Jason Tatum. It's time for his Max deal and he can only make twenty two million as a Mac sky. It's going to be an issue. Well it might happen with the guys who are already signed extensions to bayside ahead of time. They're getting twenty five percent. Some of these rookie. Max Extensions about twenty five percent is going to be way lower than what we hope for. Chris ally like why Paul George where they have the Blair options player options. They can opt into this huge number that if they went in the free agent market. They're looking at sixty percent of it. If the CAP goes down a ladder a little whatever so it around Gatien's it's always the guys that people feel like don't deserve it getting paid an extraordinary amount like it's hard to explain cagey wasn't K. G. When he signed that deal but I remember. Oh basketball executive telling me it's not Kevin Garnett has contract that aft- up the League. It was big countries because every other guy around the league looked at that and said big country makes this. I deserve to make this right and I do think guys did a reasonable job with the understanding that that one year that the cap went up. And you had all those guys from you know Ken Bays More to Mike Conley on Kit. Chandler Parsons Allan CRABB. A Lotta guys. I think were pretty good about understanding. That was an outlier. And that's I can't be sitting there. Going CAN BIZ. More makes twenty million dollars. I make more than him back in the day. Like when you're talking about what the KGB stuff when you had very young players you even had even prior to that draft picks Glen Robinson comes out. And he's he's got eighty million dollars in his pocket or whatever. It is Kenny. Anderson's yeah there was like seven for sixty million and play the game right. That's why the decade there is so many disappointing guys. They all were making a ton of money. That hadn't even done anything yet and I think they realized that. That's that's not great. We gotta at least make these guys play for their first big contract and Kinda learn a work ethic and habits now now though because of the rookie scale contract you're GONNA have the number one. Pick making about twelve million dollars. Annually and any Arrow with a salary cap could be declining so like salaries have risen. Seek that go down though like could the rookie scale actually is that tied to the I. Those are those are set. I believe. Here's a here's a business side of things questions that you could answer bill that we couldn't as someone who's in charge of a business right so one of the terms that we've all been forced to learn through this pandemic is this Forced Missouri Right. Yeah that's an all these contracts which basically says so if I have a massive sponsor that has signed a year long contract like there's all these clauses and all these contract basically saying if there is a a a natural catastrophe if there is a pandemic if there is all this stuff. Here's what happens and that's why you have a million lawyers around the table. That's how we don't know about basketball related income so to that point like right now. They are not providing games. Say let's just take. Espn that's the biggest one. Right do you think is the NBA? Still is ESPN still cutting edge check to the NBA. Despite the fact that there is no product being produced on air right now my my understanding is yes and I think they also have the option maybe to back out or cut or stop or whatever but the thing is you're still in a relationship with the league and you when when everything gets better you want to be in a good relationship with the league so you don't want to jeopardize things that that the force majeure thing like it could be interpreted any way you want but if this if this whole event doesn't qualify for that. I don't know what does I mean right. I would say. Pandemic Earthquake Massive fire all that stuff I still feel like they're going to figure out this July tournament thing. I really think it's going to happen. I think they're waiting for baseball to come back first. And then they'll jump on it but I think it's GonNa be Vegas. La Orlando. They're going to figure out the bubble thing and they're just GonNa do it. There's too much money at stake and Whether I there might not even be media loud. There might just be players. People directly related to the Games people directly rated to filming Games And that's it but it's for this reason like there's so much money at stake from something for players owners. Tv networks. They all need to actually play basketball. That's why I think it's going to happen. I'm with you I would. I wouldn't be shocked if it didn't happen. Because who knows what's going to happen moving forward however That's their full speed ahead or line. They make this happen. Which made the Adam Silver Conference call last week that I was on when he talked to the media after the Board of governors meeting he more than any other time that I can remember him speaking publicly about this whether it was with Rachel Nichols on the job or Ernie Johnson on the twitter? Nba Live thing they did. He was more cautious with the things that he was saying about playing this past week then any other time. That can remember with him. However everything I've heard is what what you've just said bill that they their their intentions are fully two games going in in July and Adam silver was more like no. We're just listening to ideas. I don't think that's true. That's not true. There's a real reason. He played it that way. If I had to analyze it It's coming right off trump having the meeting or whatever he did zoom meeting with all the commissioners and a couple of different owners. I think Adam is being really sensitive about the perception of his players with how he handles it. Especially with the trump part of it. Because you think like I'm GonNa go out on a limb and say that Most of the player demographic is not in the trump camp just in general and I think that that's a delicate line to be like the players know. He's talking to the president. The players thinking trump's forcing him to come back or whatever and I just think they're trying to kind of navigate it. I don't think they WANNA BE I. That's what I keep hearing. They don't want to be the first league back and they're really kinda waiting for golf baseball and a couple of other things to get going. But I was saying this two weeks ago. I think it's GonNa be like a seven eight week run In starting July third lifeforce somewhere like that bubble system you do to La. Live Dude in Vegas at one casino or you do it in Orlando and you just you have everybody come into needs to be there. And nobody's allowed to leave and nobody else's ladder come in any test everybody and just kinda go and that's it who as a novel. Virus pandemic escalates in the United States. Public health officials are encouraging those who are experiencing signs or something so Cova nineteen coughing fever to seek medical guidance. For moly if you or a loved one are feeling sick or feeling worried. There's a way to get help without leaving home. Row is offering free telehealth services for people seeking guidance and information cove in nineteen the services available free of charge in all fifty states and in Washington D. C. Gross Free Online assessment. Determine if you're at risk and if appropriate row will connect you with a medical provider for a free consultation. The assessment was designed by doctors and infectious disease experts and is based on guidelines from the CDC in the World Health Organization visit borrowed dot co Slash Corona virus on your phone or laptop to complete a free online assessment. Just learnt born. If you're worried that you may be experiencing symptoms go to our owed on co slash corona virus to start your free assessment today. That's bro Dot co slash virus now back from a mismatch. We just watched the dock with Any Oh David. Stern makes an appearance when they're often Paris. Whatever and I know you knew you knew the stern NBA extremely well. How how much different do you think what we're going through right now is? If it's David Stern still run in the league instead of Adam Stern Stern would be much more available. Present and kind of owning the real estate of an atom. Is that like stern had a little bit of a trump side to him where it's like here. I'm going to have another press conference today here. My thoughts you know like He. In Times of crisis he was very very available and president. And I think Adam is a little more behind the scenes Try and the interesting thing to me. And I'm just starting to find out details of this but just like coups emerging as the powerbrokers for driving this. If it actually does happen. Who's against it. Whose four things like that. Because I've heard some stuff about You know like at least one owner who who really felt like it should still be in the arenas if they came back and enough teams find back and forth and I think the debate is a lot more robust and and and heated then maybe has come out so far. Have you heard that Kevin? Yeah I mean there's a lot of this agreement for sure I mean. I think that's probably another reason. Why Adam Silver to take the stance that he did for the reason you mentioned but also you know there is nothing that has been set in stone yet here. I'm sure there are certain ideas that he's taking more seriously than others. And that is obviously the bubble idea just a matter of where you do in and whether you have one or two of them. I think the I think what Keith Smith wrote on. Yahoo makes a lot of sense. Disneyworld is already essentially a bubble. That is a place that already has the hotel infrastructure and has already. It's not a city like Los Angeles or Las Vegas where people can could theoretically go there and you know and try to sneak into a place. Disneyworld already has closed doors. Well there's also a tie in with your your biggest business partner right choke yep of course so it. Two thousand eleven. When they had that lockout and there it became a half have not staying with the owners and some owners kind of emerged as the powerful voice reason owners. I remember at the time like Peter. Holt was like San Antonio Guy became kind of the guy and like the conciliatory for the owners. And the conduit. I think Cuban was very important. Wit Gross back from the Celtics was important Clay Bennett from Oklahoma City was kind of the small market guy. And you had these different little file oems and they're all trying to figure it out but everybody has an agenda. I haven't heard enough yet about what the agendas are this time. Run and no Cuban is really active golden state the those owners and the Celtics owners and then you know obviously the thing is the owners that they have now are much more successful incompetent than the owners they had. Certainly you know twenty plus years ago and even in the two thousand eleven a lot of the guys that have bought into teams. Dour are really successful businessman. Who who care about what people think about them. So I think that's gotta be driving to that like the worst case scenario. You do this bubble thing it's going and then during round one Chris Middleton comes down with the Corona virus or whoever? And you're like Oh shit. Do we stop what happens. And I think that's the thing that they they're trying to figure out if we do this. Can we be a hundred percent? Sure we can start from a position of zero people have this and then they're in the bubble and there's all these different models if you do the bubble thing correctly. Nobody has it that nobody can give it to each other so the question is well. How do we know if somebody e-e-e-e-no is as symptomatic? And I know this is all the stuff they're talking about every day one thing. That is good or better than it once was is an you know this bill. These guys are way They're much more rich than they were before. And so these losses. It's not as big a deal when this happened even ten years ago. There's a lot of guys they'd like. You know the the amount of money that they may be losing right now. It can be tax. Write off its ashtray. Money to some of these guys honestly whereas because they got ten fifteen billion dollars seven billion dollars in some cases are so many guys that are so much more rich that own these teams then used to. You didn't have to be like crazy rich to own a basketball team even ten years ago. Yeah but I'll put that around the other way. There's people that became rich. Basically you know look at look at the Houston owner. He's a restaurants hotels Guy Right now. That's fair. Would you WANNA have investments at restaurants and hotels right now so? I do wonder if there's GONNA be some key. At least a couple of teams that keeps dragging on are. GonNa WanNa try to sell just to you know Jay because they need the money or whatever we were in a situation really the last two three years i. I don't even think there was really more than two teams ever legitimately for sale right. Kevin was like Minnesota. We'd heard rumors about other than that. I don't even know if there was a it was thirty owners who don't in their teams and they weren't for sale. Was there anyone Kevin none come to mind? I mean obviously Knicks fans would hope James Dolan would sell for five billion dollars or whatever the next will be valued at but even he's not not I guess I guess Brooklyn Cats but everyone he was trying to Brooklyn for a few years and the the key lost a lot of his fortune. So yeah I think you know whenever this whenever we come out of this and God knows what it's going to look like the League's going to be drastically. Different caps are going to be different. There's going to be new owners you're GonNa have a situation where the guys who got their salaries in Over the last three years are just going to have a higher Max number than the guys that are coming after a couple of quick things before we get out of here today all right so for both of you I for for Bill. You read every single book about this bull stuff you were. You wanted to make your own documentary on it. You lived through it right but you watched. Let's just take the first two hours? Which is what everybody. What did you not know that was in the first two episodes? I What K-. Oc you better say you didn't know something he's GonNa he said he's GonNa say he knew everything. Now I really did I you know. Not only did I live through it but when I wrote my book I read every book. And there's just nothing that was in this that I didn't know their stuff in the later episodes that I didn't know but these I two. They were set up big picture stuff. Even the stories on these guys like about pal. Joanne and I think a lot of us and playing for keeps a lot of yeah caves some of a lot of the NBA. Business stuff is in breaks to the game Jordan rules. They there's a lot of Jordan books like he was the first modern basketball player. Who is really covered in a real way where? I felt like I did not know anything saying I tell you this. I knew nothing about his brother's like I told you about how important that family stuff was. When I was I didn't know his mom was alive for that matter. She looks unbelievable. Yeah she's in her seventies for goodness sakes but the brother stopped and then somebody texted me yesterday. Like you know You know his brothers and executive for the Hornets and I was like wait. What one of. His brothers is an executive for the Hornets. Now I mean I've never even. It was weird. 'cause I when he's talking about it and again I'm sure it'll change. His time goes on but even when he talked brothers. It was all like bad stuff. I mean I had these brothers and I fought with them and it wasn't like I really looked up to my brother early. You know none of that stuff at Berkeley we. We're just so familiar with everybody. I everybody knows everyone of Lebron's kids. Everybody knows every everything about all these guys and now it's all these years later. The most famous athlete in the world and there was a lot of the family stuff that I didn't I didn't realize about Jordan. I mean just just overall I sort of take away Ryan's I thought on your Pod Bill. I thought it was pretty motivating. And there's some good life lessons in there. I thought the scene with Michael Jordan when he was a rookie with the Bulls and eat opened the door. And this people doing cocaine and everything. And he's like you know what this I'm not going to let this derail me I thought that was a really really cool. Part of the episode of me as funny. You know thinking about that team going from what he went to that but it was also sort of you know this is a guy who his whole life sort of knew what he wanted and he worked as hard as he possibly could every step of the way to achieve what he wanted to achieve. I I sort of felt the same way as Ryan on your pod. Bill to your point Kev on the guy didn't know about a you understand how it shapes him right that he was like. I'm I'm not going to be going out to the clubs or not doing whatever but it's different like even nowadays covering these guys like they go out is teams and they go out when they go out on the road or whatever but like how traumatic it must have been the open up a hotel room and there's chicks and cocaine and all the like you good like throw everything away. Nobody's throwing anything away from going to the Club in Miami when you know when these guys go out now but it's just so hard to even comprehend you know if you open up a door it any of us you open up a door and there's a bunch of people doing cocaine you're like damn if I'm a part of this I could. I could lose everything like nobody has that they should to make any more. But I mean honestly that was a huge factor with the league. He was going into. It's the height of the cocaine era. And you know it's not just destroying the NBA it's destroying the NFL and MLB to some degree and Hollywood there's so many comedians and actors and directors who got who nobody knew it. Was you know that debilitating from from seventy six all the way through? Then people started dying but if you go back in I I wrote about this in my book a little bit. The drug thing was was the dominant topic in the NBA. Other than bird magic for the first part of the eighties and we were losing guys left and right guys careers again cut short that was when stern he he put in the big the drug testing and the whole suspension thing that goes in and like eighty two eighty three and it all Crestwood. Len Bias. Eighty six when the lend bias thing happened and right after that the rockets who had made the finals Lewis. Lloyd Mitchell wiggins. They both had cocaine suspensions and this was the biggest problem in the league and it was interesting. He ended up on a team that I think it was probably a little worse off with that stuff than most. If you go back and look at the basketball reference You could probably figure out who a couple of guys were but yeah like what if he goes in there and he's like all right. I'll try one. You know like I bias is the Great Celtics would if my life and he was somebody that I think you know had a lot of Jordan and I. I don't think it's inconceivable that he could have been as good or better than Charles. Barkley or Karl Malone Fade. Come into the League. And he's you know he would. He was at least worst case. Scenario the Celtics version of James Worthy and he starts partying a little bit his last year Maryland and all of a sudden. Od's you know so. I I think the dangers that were in place for these guys really can't be overstated. People didn't know any better and and they were doing dumb stuff it's like it's like The episode nine or episode aid of Better Call Saul season five. When Mike Talking about bad choice road you make choices that lead up to where you are on your life. You make some good choices along the way you make some bad choices along the way. You can't do anything about that. She's about what you do. Move Forward. Chris I remember We'd huge Ringer Party cocaine women. Kfc We just hired kacie opens. The door looks and he's like I don't want that guys I did. We restroom at any. This is they. Don't have that but you do. Judge me for saying the bullshit of tanked eighty six season. Right he's read. Kfc's right one hundred percent rate. No Chris the lottery that year was seven teams. Everybody had the same odds. If you're the service with the same person and that was a really good draft. They absolutely should have thanked. I would've sat down would Jordan. The owner have sat down Jordan. Eighty six Jordan and the player. I bet he would have. I don't know you know he look even now running frigging they win thirty something games every year right potato anyway while I mean he could bottom out he has an charlotte. I do think he really believes that that there is an integrity to the game. And what the fuck away doing here go out and win. Your main explains a lot of explains a lot of the Hornets contracts. The last ten years their team that's obsessed with getting the six or seven seed getting to playoff games. Maybe three and that's called. It is on the sixty million bucks. Brassieres had a pretty good deal but not a sixty million dollars year were they bidding against. You're right all right two days away from the NFL draft. Both pats guys who do you want. And do you want to come away with a quarterback would you trade up for bill? Let's he falls out check just that he just doesn't do that. How many times does he traded up in twenty years? That's been like twice. He turned up in the high tower draft. When he loves a player he's willing to trade up it's very rare and we and we haven't seen him in a situation in which he needs a quarterback. I'm just saying there's a theoretical. If he were to fall well and I say benzes Guy Sapien. This guy if he you know he knows what he be getting into a better than anyone. I am all in on And Cam Newton or Janus. Oh try to load up on the draft genius for the fun of last year also throws thirty three thirty big to had five surgeries already. I know I know I know second line. There's a lot a red flags. They're scary. Big Curious I. I'm not sure if I WOULD WANNA trade up for him with all the injuries and the major surgeries that he's had. It's just something that I've thought about. What the potential scenario and Thursday would I want the Patriots do that yeah? Look I'll play on cams a good dude great player but I can't see him walking in and a frigging little Bo peep bonnet and a Polka dots scarf in a patriots press conference. I won't last with Bill Belichick. Let's get serious. Chris. We're not the super bowl. Run IS OVER I. I'm for like a fun patriots team. I know we're not winning the superbowl next year with it. Eight nine hundred eighty nine. Nfl draft was on last site. Which of course I watch three hours and it was during the height. It was during the height of when the Patriots were just awful and this is a draft. That had four hall of famers in the first five picks. Then Andre Rise in Thurman Thomas All these guys. And the PATS TOOK. Hartley dykes who played two years. Who got in a bar fight with? Every friar hurt his own fractures kneecap was out of the League in two years. But as you watch in this draft they're like Oh you know physical receivers speed You know some off field stuff but maybe going to New England to be better firm and it just took me back to this. Ptsd patron pre BLEDSOE. When it seemed like they were GONNA move every year. They fucked up everything and now. I feel like we're heading back there to that place. Where and wait so it's is done. Wow we haven't had a good draft. We haven't had a good draft since two thousand fourteen. This team's not going to be good next year. So the two of thing I it's like what what even the point out. Just more fun than that is more fun than Jay. Janus jeered still. This is not fun Cam. Newton Fun Jameis Winston. Not Fun on also. Jalen Jalen hurts as well. I'm very intrigued by jalen hurts. Jay Leno Oh wow nice I like this year. We made nine Super Bowl that we won six in twenty years. It's ever happening again. We had our what era What are you don't hope Come out of draft night with a quarterback. That's not eat central to you. You who melkite brands you taking Zach. Bon A white linebacker from Wisconsin is perfect. Fit Right Chris. Can I tell you where I'm at with to Please I'm deep down. Hoping he falls to twenty three okay. I do think there's a lot of medical questions and everyone's doing this on zoom. Nobody's been able to actually work them out and there may be a chance like all right maybe he just starts falling i. It's select the thir thirteen fourteen range. I'd start to. Get excited. You know. I always complain about the group thing. That goes along with drafts Li. I tweeted about this last night. The all these. Nfl analyst changing their tune on the kid from Oregon is embarrassing to me. Like Bro you spent the last month telling me that this guy ain't that good and you're not that high on him and there's there's there's a burrow into a and then a drop off and they all get word that all these teams at the top like him that he might go in the top five and so now they. They're all talking up. Justin harbored. GimMe a break. What do I hear? This satis satisfy conversation. I've had in the last three weeks about sports. I'm talking about dad the other day and I'm telling him I think there's a chance they're gonNA play the NBA this season and maybe have twelve. Playoff teams not sixteen may be four four buys for the top four. Maybe just a playoff teams. I'm laying it all out from. There's a pause. My Dad goes. Does that MEAN OUR MEMPHIS team Memphis pick could be the lottery. I'm like my dad. That shit assailed that picks doc and end up in the lottery. No matter what playoff system they have. He's so heartbroken. Pick turned into a top five pick. He can't get over it. So Larry is that. That's what you say because as you are laying that out. I'm like Oh F- that that's their way so that they can justify the fine. We'RE NOT GOING TO MEMPHIS instead of Zay on. We can't figure out a way to get in there so we're just going to cut it off at six so we don't have to deal with it. Oh F- that yeah. No no no start preparing. Now start preparing. Mostly no they're gonNA cut it off as team playoffs. That's terrible well it it does a couple of things the other thing it does is if. Katie and career. Ready to come back all the set in Brooklyn as the seven seed. That actually has these two guys that could play and ruined everything. You don't want that either. Yeah you don't want that either so I think you either do eighteen or twelve. Kfc What do you think eighteen twelve? So I mean I've heard like look everything's Spin. Turn around you know would playoff playoff playing tournaments but would this theoretical six team in each conference playoff system. You would still have a plan right to determine some of these final seeds. So I guess Brooklyn's could still get in men's could still get in. What do you make a plan? I thought it was GONNA be twelve teams. The top two seeds in each conference. Don't plan round one. And he fired his six four. I think you do three verse. Six four verse five. We don't there's no games you cut it off right now. What the standard right now. Rageh regular season's done. That's that's not happening. What's funny though is that they'll keep our money. Though this whole time there's GonNa be no regular season refund for the season ticket holders. They'll do that like at the tail end but teams teams. Do WanNa get to that seventy mark. I mean they're not going to get the seventy but maybe if you do have the like of you have some type of playing tournament that count toward counts towards regular season revenue. That could be used to determine the playoff seeds. Though I mean it could get funky. I'd inside so you see them. Cutting off twelve teams. Yeah top sixty did SO DALLAS MEMPHIS ARE OUT? That is out. Oh Yeah No Luca. No Job Mirant. Great just don't see it. I think you're GonNa see those guys play again. I hope I surprise. Bills Games being played. I think you're gonna see those guys playing. I hope have by the way. Can we talk about trades? That people wouldn't have done if they knew. A massive pandemic was coming three weeks later. You gotTA start with Miami for Andre. With dollar right. They gave up justice winslow and they do this whole move to load up and then what two and a half weeks later. This season's over two and a half weeks later. Feeling good about that trade Chris Manda I mean the fact that they got anything for Andrea Goodell is unbelievable after the way that all played out that was crazy was crazy the way that all played out and then the other one that's nuts now is the is the Wiggins Russell trade where gold say has a top three protected. Two Thousand Twenty one pick for Minnesota. I would say that's a top five team. I WOULD WANNA top five unprotected. Pick from top three. I'm telling you that was a great trade agree the most important question so since you brought up the fact that the pandemic hit and all these NBA players you know. Would you go back and make different moves. Whatever who is going to come back the most out of shape this is almost like a lockout scenario. You'd spend a LOTTA DOUBT TALKING ABOUT SEAN. Camp. He is the famous had. Lockout came back. Oh my God what happened here right. Inevitably like a lot of these guys. I talked to a couple of players yesterday. I'm not kidding you. They went to frigging Dicks to buy a basketball goals for their house. They don't a basketball. They don't even have goals at their house much less. I mean they're running around. I know I'm with. You never consider it right like if you're Jason Tatum. Why would you ever basketball hoop anytime? You WanNa play basketball. You just go to the practice right. So they so. These guys are underrated. Fat Lockout Guy Was Antoine Walker. Because he came back he had signed a Max Contract. He was like twenty two years old. All of a sudden is seventy one million dollar with nothing with them. I personally liked him but the Boston fans it was a little iffy with him and he shows up and he's good fifteen pounds heavier than he was the season before. And I remember my Dad. Like what the how what's he been doing? There will definitely be at least a couple of guys like that. I do think it's easier to stay in shape in two thousand twenty the maybe it was in nineteen ninety nine. 'cause you do give by fucking Peleton or do you know. There's things you can do at home. Would we agree? There is a reasonable chance Zionist. Three eighty when he comes back already three. Oh five to two guys. I'm most worried about her. Zion and bead beads. Another one that I feel I can beat spin on the fringe for awhile And I do. I do worry about whether you'd look. I put my favorite part of this. Is Chris Really? Wants Zion not to work out like he. He'll never say public but at the job the job reds I it's like back three real crispy walking around his house like I love watching Zay on but we need to find out if he stayed in New Orleans because there's no way if he stayed in New Orleans that he you can't I mean I I go for their for a weekend. I gained sixteen pounds. There'll be therapy one center. The centers have the trouble one like just coming back from your Yokich. Got Poor Yogesh. Yokich is any chance that he has gotten on a treadmill or a by or run around the neighborhood or no way. There is no way with if you told you. If you're not making him hell he doesn't WanNa run during the Games. He wasn't in shape for the first. Two months of this is in in really. Have a pandemic yeah. I don't know the want one like serious note on this topic though it's like there is a legitimate concern for player conditioning. What's happening midseason? And I wonder will there be any guys for being who were going to say. I'm not gonNA play well. Anybody just sit out entirely Andrea. Who's Out Yeah J. O? One more one more out of shape guy possibility. Luca's gotta be on the list right. Luke has been like he was borderline for the last couple of years. He was my first pick in the NBA DESKTOP BMI drafts. So No no now unfulfilled promise. Because of a pandemic would've ever there will inevitably be some of these guys that are. I hate to say that but are not the same after this and there is great risk of injury because being inactive for this amount of time you know what I mean like I. It just anybody. You can't go from being inactive and I don't know how many of these guys are staying. You know mega active. Certainly nothing like what it takes to be an NBA shape. It's tough embiid anxiety. I think would be my top draft picks bill. Thanks for coming on with US TODAY. Man. It's been great to see you guys. KFC your beard. Looks Fantastic Chris? I'm glad you're well you really. I mean look at that thing. It is really filled in. Looks like a civil war general at that stage right now. I'm GonNa win ago Kevin. I know he's the Buzzer bust. His ass look at is yeah. He's I acted later. You're dominating him in the beard game well a two year I heard. Yeah I started in December and he's also like following all these. You don't know this. But he's following all these guys on instagram. He's putting like exotic oils in it and shit no true hymns what happened. Here's what happened. I thought true. What did happen was I mentioned a beard video that I watch on Youtube trimmed beard. Or whatever and someone someone who owns that beard brand listens to this show. Hey the guy you mentioned the fifty five year old attractive dude with the beard but looks like a normal without the beard works for us and sent a couple of oils and the shampoo. So that's not exotic stuff. It's just normal. Like Shampoo type of products keeps it soft man? Do you have Special Shampoo Bill? This is unbelievable when is the KFC spear getting an Instagram or twitter? Crazy fan right. That's great I'm all in on that Bobby for producing as always thanks. Bill Kevin. I'll talk to you on Friday occupied icus. Thanks for listening another episode of the mismatch. We'll talk to you on Friday.