So there are a couple of places that i found increasingly over the last year that we find our best guests. Places isn't doing really really good. Were you probably know about hillsdale. Because they've partnered with conservative talk and they're doing a lot of good work especially educating people that are getting a little outside college age and wanting to think about the constitution what it means and you know that we do a e. I are the other day we had Teri macdonald from the f. e. e. there several of these organizations that are doing great work putting out good content as almost kind of a continuing education for good civics and one of them that keeps coming up. Is the claremont institute. Our guest is matt peterson. Vp of education at the claremont institute founding editor of the american. Mind matt if you would and you may have done this last time. You were here for people who don't know what the claremont institute is a keeps coming up as a source of good articles in good. Guess what is it. Well thank you for saying that. We are a forty year old think tank. That has a little different than others because it was never really involved in policy. It was always about promoting the principles of the american founding in contemporary life. So from the very beginning some of the best scholars on the american founding associated with the claremont institute You know a lotta. Your listeners will know About the progressives and the progressive movement. That was something that really didn't talk about until there was real scholarship about the history of america what had happened so defining kind of the ideas of the american right with something that the claremont institute is was was part of from the very beginning. In fact larry arnn. Hillsdale was president of the claremont institute at one point He's also a A claremont graduate student. Like many of us are Who studied political philosophy in american government. Program it doesn't exist anymore but it used to exist and was one of the few in the country that actually Actually did that. i think well And right but what we do now. Is we publish. We teach and relitigate so we publish the claremont review of books and the american mind Which i started two years ago. and we We litigated cases. In the supreme court. john eastman Has been at that for a while and we also teach so we bring together networks of the best young professionals and young leaders in the country and our fellowship programs and we bring scholars from all over the country people in politics from all over the country together to teach and that we're together and move things in the direction that we think we need to go. Would you ever believe that you could make a living doing something so fun. It's it's unbelievable. I- i- i remind myself Frequently is at its. It's almost ridiculous to get to get paid. I've done a lot of other things in my life and to be doing this is I a great challenge. Actually because the task before us is very serious but it is It is an amazing privilege to be paid to matt. Peterson is our guest. The article that caught our attention appears in the aforementioned of the american mind. A house dividing question bringing what is said in private into the open. What what is the reason you wrote this well for a long time. Now i've noticed As i'm sure Many many of you have I've noticed that there's there's to track conversation going on in america and You know usually when people talk about this. They'll say well it's deplorable people on the other half the other half of the country and you know they might talk about this but we wouldn't you know good good. Elite people wouldn't talk about this. What is this. It's how divided the country is in public. We we talk about division and You know all the rancor and we fight and all that but then private people talk about what's to be done about it. How bad is it really. And what will it lead to. And what i noticed it was that many working professionals on the right people who were very smart you know very well paid living in Different sectors of the american economy and tech and finance in big blue cities. I in fancy america. We're having very dark thoughts about where things are going and they this. This happens repeatedly amount. Meet someone and finance and say well. I don't know. I'm a little skeptical. The over financial ization of the economy. And i think you know it just seems like this could blow up in some way but you know what do i know. I am right about that. And they'll just look at me and say oh. Yeah i talk about that all the time. It could all blow up. You know you start to hear these kind of sentiments from people who are very accomplished to know things. Because they're doing things they're not you know these. These aren't pontificators. Writing and in the papers of people who are out there. And i think there's a lot of savvy folks who are thinking. This country is deeply divided and it's not headed in the right direction and at the More let's say normal local level You find a lot of people out in the country for whom right now saying. Oh yeah. there's probably going to be a civil war is a nonchalant statement. They'll just say that loud at the bar and you know may have been a joke ten years ago but now it's it's maybe not a joke and this is you know i know people thinking about leaving the country on the right. I mean so so this. Is this a serious discussion. And i think we publish this above all i because i don't like the idea of talking about something in private about how well this is really serious. What's going to happen. The country will a break up and then having a public conversation. That's kinda pretending. Everything's a little better than it is outside the political structure more sort of cultural and obviously on a base level financial. What's happening with the game. Stock game stop and amc and bed. Bath and beyond melvin capital. All that i see a lot of trends. I see a very aggressive lurch toward a strong populism that for years we saw on the left. And now we're seeing on the right and it's very interesting times where there is sort of an anti establishment since among everyone and there is this idea. It's very french revolution. In many ways that there is this idea that people have been repression. I think the worst thing you can do this is what the line of of the title bringing what said private into the open. You know i. I feel that this desire to suppress and sensor speech and thought and commentary on the basis that it is nazi or fascist or white supremacist. I think it ends very badly. I think it is very very badly because people who can't get their voice out they find other ways and those aren't always as harmless posting on social media pages. Absolutely i mean absolutely and and this is. This is the problem right now. The entire dynamic in the country is you know we won. we Kind of the the responsible people who are in charge one and everything's fine and everything's going to go back to normal and trump was really the problem right and we are just gonna make sure that everything goes back to normal and we're going to force you to acknowledge that everything is going back to normal dammit and here. They are in a You know in a militarized capital with no citizens an inauguration and you know. I was sitting there watching that and it very much related to these articles published the separation because i thought to myself the imagery here forget about where you think about the politicians. Just the imagery is. This is one political class alone. Surrounded by soldiers celebrating the triumph of democracy on inauguration day and the image you have is. You're not there. It's you against them and this is very dangerous for any regime. Once you this is in fact why. The left promotes all the stuff. This is why they need to divide everyone by race because the terrifying ideas that if really the many i mean all all the people the majority of people ganged up against the rich right. I mean that's a. That's a tough dynamic. In in many societies without a middle class that leads to radical instability. And so so here. We are with You know this this problem. And and they're they're making it worse by almost saying no. We are elite class. And we will tell you what to say and do and the more they do that the more the rest of america is is also going to double down and i think the great lie was that you know we get rid of trump and everything would be fine. I think the opposite is the case without trump. you're going to see a rising populism that you know we'll be dangerous itself because people just don't care they see. Look it's all phony. The the laws don't make sense. Country doesn't make sense and this is serious and i really think we we are public discussion of it needs to become more serious because it's not alarmism to say we are entering some very dangerous territory and that is why we publish this because we had a thoughtful piece from a very accomplished Person who You know went to fancy schools and has fancy jobs. it was very successful in life Military as well patriot. Writing a piece. That said i think the only way to save america the author who went by the name rebecca which is I guess abraham lincoln's only student him that he used throughout his life. Now the author says we need to separate america in order to save it that we should We should change the constitution such that. We still have one military and one overarching government. But we kinda let two groups of states govern themselves as they want and then hopefully we could come back. Together is his argument. And it's the it's the only way to save the situation because he says we're actually two countries already. We have fundamental disagreement so he sort of says separation But not total divorce with the hope of the couple of coming back together. And i thought that was an interesting thoughtful argument I think there's some problems with it but But it was very interesting and so we published it along with some others. Matt peterson. you are an interesting and thoughtful guest. I only wish we had more time to talk. Come back anytime. He's the vice president of education at the claremont institute. Which as you heard is doing great work. Founding editor of the american mind and the piece that we talked about is posted to our blog. Michael berry show dot com. Thank you sir thank you.