What's going on everybody? I'm Molly Karen rose. And you're listening to the first. Take podcast when it comes to home and auto insurance state farm is the real deal for starters. They fit seamlessly into Your Life. Easily manager coverage. Pay Your Bill and even file a claim with state farm mobile APP which was awarded Best Insurance Mobile APP. Twenty nineteen and they really get to know you. Thanks to a network of nineteen thousand agents. You'll have someone local to talk you through options that fit your personal needs when you want the real deal like a good neighbor state. Farm is there look. Who's here Mike? Greenberg joining us. Fresh off of get up always good to see you might brand. Max Kellerman Stephen a Smith guys. I come bearing good news. Greening you're well aware of this. You've been talking about it for two hours. We have an update on the return of sports. Let's get right into it. Here is the deal. Governors from New York Texas and California announced that professional sports could resume in their respective states in the near future. New York Governor Andrew Cuomo is encouraging major sports teams in New York to plan on reopening without fans governor Gavin. Newsom said sports could resume without fans in California as soon as the first week of June governor. Greg Abbott also says pro sports without fans could resume in Texas at the end of May. Here's King James on the subject. No definitely not giving up on the season you know not only you know myself and my teammates legs organization. We WanNA WE WANNA play. There's a lot of players that I know. Personally that WANNA play as a fan myself. I know we all miss it and I I will be sitting here lineup. I say we don't. We all missed. The game of basketball. Manage is does so much. Well you seen right now with the last dance you've seen as I am. I up. How the game basketball just assembles. Everybody so hopefully this twenty twenty. Continue so good to hear from. King James. Max Don't want jinx anything but are you a little more optimistic now about the return knock wood. No look. Optimistic means not only hopeful but confident about the future. I'm hopeful I'm part of optimistic but I can't say I'm confident. Not about the return. I think sports will return specifically I think the NBA will return. But I don't know that they will be able to complete their seasons. I'm not confident about that the NBA. Maybe because the NBA seemed to get out ahead of it and take it realistically centralized locations and quarantining and if the tests become available enough and all that stuff and can play through the summer months when apparently where apparently the virus does not do as well because it's warm weather but if history is any indication people point to the Spanish flu pandemic that that affected the obviously the world depend but incl- that includes this country and people thought it went away in the summer and then it came back with a vengeance. It was much deadlier in fact when the weather turned cold in the in the fall again so I understand that testing is more widely available that the NFL has said. It does have contingency plans only do this. If testing is available they presume. The tasks will be more accurate and quicker in terms of the results that they can give saliva test blood tests in it and you can get the results very quickly. I understand that's the hope and people are forecasting that and that would be great based on our federal government's response to this so far. I don't have confidence going forward that they will get it together to the extent that they believe that they will based on the history of viruses mutate. The fact that the Spanish flu came back the fact that that will coincide with the cold weather for football. I don't know that they will be able to complete their season. So I'm the hopeful part of optimistic. I'm optimistic about the NBA but as it relates to Major League Baseball and the NFL. I'm still cynical. I'm confident and optimistic. And the reason is is because I'm not depending on the federal government. The fact of the matter is that there's too much at stake off. All hands are on deck not just nationally but globally and as a result of that you have to listen to the medical professionals Businesses. That obviously are doing everything. They can new ingratiate themselves in proceedings to make sure that we do what we can to proliferate than the available test Not to mention the fact that you weren't a mission of fodder vaccine The reality is that there's just too much at stake took to fail in this regard and I think everybody knows it and I have confidence and and I'm optimistic that this will ultimately get done. I can't pay attention to the rhetoric of politicians or whatever. I'm listening to the medical professionals and in terms of the sports leagues defended the minute. They said there are no fans in attendance than obviously. I'm incredibly confident that this will get done. Let's just make sure we understand what that means. Ladies and Gentlemen. Somebody's GonNa test positive for the corona virus. That's just that's just going to happen. In all likelihood that does not mean a sports league has to shut down because somebody tested positive for the corona virus the UFC of the Dana White showed us that when Sousa Rinaldo Souza tested positive for the corona virus Obviously he wasn't allowed to fight that night But the other eleven fights with the UFC tuned forty nine took place. And so you're gonNA look at that. People use that as a barometer to some degree to sort of gauge. What can and can't be couldn't be done and they're going to move forward here. You have thirty-six plus million people that are unemployed. Let's let's stop acting like we get gloss over that because there's the corona virus pandemic going on. You don't get to do that. There's no way on earth that society can continue to move forward on these conditions. Everybody knows that as a result it's GONNA be all hands on deck. They're going to prepare themselves for worst case in there. They are going to march on baseball is going to have some semblance of a season the NBA is going to have a playoff. The National Football League has been going on business as usual. And they're going to continue to do that no matter what anybody says. That's the reality of the situation. People need to get over it. Understand it engage in the new normal and move forward. That's what we're going to do. I agree it's even might grow quick. Yeah micro quick. I should have said skeptical. I said cynical. I'm not cynical about it. I'm hopeful but I'm skeptical about their ability to complete the seasons. That's fair because there was no certainty in all of this but I tend to lean towards where Stephen is on this. And I'll tell you why if there's one way to sort of encapsulate the reaction that all of us have to have as we move forward however best we can in our lives right now. It is what the answer to this question. How much risk are we willing to incur in order to seek out whatever goal? It is that we wish and when you look at professional sports they are comparatively speaking in an enviable situation. So many other business has been devastated and have almost no opportunity to return these businesses while devastated have the ability to return instantly if they're willing to incur the that is necessary now one fighter testing positive for. Ufc is not the same as a football player for exactly for example testing positive for a basketball player. As you see here because all of a sudden you have contact tracing if you on his test. Positive does that mean that. His team can't play a given game. There were this will require a level of flexibility that does far we have not been willing to have understandably so if the medical experts tell the league's you can have that flexibility that you do not have the shut everything down because one player test positive. Then I believe because of the incentive incentive is Max billions and billions of dollars that they will come back and they will find a way to complete everything they need to do what we just saw an example by the way when you say how much risk are we willing to take as a as a society for lack of a better word. It's interesting that the people being asked to take the risks or frontline workers and you can obviously make a parallel but they're not essential workers athletes though in our business. We kind of. There's no sports if they're not there. And the liable and by the way the owners of all these leagues reap the largest rewards and yet as we see is the case in big business throughout the history of businesses the nature of business to make money. They don't WanNa take liability and so players are being asked to sign waivers. Hey if I get. What are you talking about? Wait a minute so the players should take the risk and the and the owners have no liability. It's just interesting the way this word risk gets thrown around. Who's taking the risk? And is that risk shared among everybody? Oh while Max Kellerman You know what I just WanNa stop the presses that I WANNA make sure that. I'm clear because obviously you're saying that it's not fair that billionaires get to expose themselves to less risk than the regular Joe in society welcome to America. Unfortunately we've been lamenting that as black people for decades if not centuries okay with it's understood that unfortunately everything in life is it fair but let me tell you something right now we all. We've we've seen the number of reports where black people obviously be. Disproportionately affected by this other. Minorities are being disproportionately affected by this. Obviously service workers. And what have you folks live in an apartment? As opposed to homes clustered together. Those kind of things definitely have a detrimental effect but there was also a white woman that was on television in Texas. That was thrown in jail for a week for ignoring the order. Why because the small business the dollars that she was going to get to help us small business she couldn't get it and she couldn't feed her children and the judge said you ignore the order. I'm going to throw you in jail for a week. It's not listen. Minorities are being disproportionately affected. We know that. But everybody's being affected. But we're not one monolithic group. Unfortunately some people are more desperate than others. Some people need more than others. Some people can afford to miss out once again. Check walking dungeons and salary and things of that nature but not others and writes the reality once again down once again that comes down to what the role of government is Steven A. Probably not a topic for this show necessarily but since we're on the subject argument can should be made. It's the winning argument. In fact that if there's a high risk to workers who don't have who are there for unemployment can't feed their families that they should be receiving checks to assist them they take as paid into and who's and the owners are desperate to players and the owners are desperate to play then especially this is their business. Then players should not be forced to sign. Waivers greedy greedy. I religiously say this Max. He's not wrong in terms of what should be. But what's the reality? The reality is is that the people that have missed out on their checks they have not been taken care of by the government like. They said they thought they were going to be. It hasn't happened. There's no surprise here you're talking about what should be. I completely agree with you but you know damn well. It's not going to happen now. What go ahead green I could have. I'm as entertained by as anyone else's by listening to the truth guys going back and forth on this to be honest with you. I would just go back to the first thing I said. Which is that sports comparatively speaking. Max An enviable situation. Because they can come back immediately and of course there are risks to be taken here and they are always taken by the people and the least advantageous positions but the professional athletes will be far better taking care of than most people out. There are being forced to work through all of this so all things considered. I don't think pro sports have nearly as bad as a lot of other people do and again I'll say it again. Billions of dollars at stake. If they can find a way to do this. They will lie. Greenberg appreciate you as always we will see you on get up. Geico has the insurance industry leading APP. That lets you manage your policy anytime anywhere. Which means that. Geico is always there for you. If only everyone was always there for you like animal control when you're cornered in your garage by me again you guys said you would be here about origo and I think the positive is starting to get angry. I listened I thought if I fed it would go away but now it is ripping in the drywall and making some sort of nest. Just call me back. Always there for you with savings in the industry leading mobile APP. It is no secret that they're only four minority head coaches and to minority in the National Football League sport that is predominantly African American. Well the NFL taking action. The Rooney role will now be amended first reported by the NFL network and confirmed here by ESPN will require teams to interview. At least two minority external candidates for head coach openings. At least one minority candidate must be interviewed for coordinator. Positions source confirmed. Dan Graziano Monday. The changes will be discussed today in a virtual league meeting. But do not require a vote. Stephen I WANNA start with you here. Point blank has the Rooney Rule Bene- failure. Yes it has been I think the Fritz Pollard. Alliance would would would definitely cosign that. Obviously they're committed to helping minorities Gained significant positions in the national football league. They would highlight that. It's been a failure and I think the numbers. The fact showed that it's been a failure of but more importantly the owners themselves have made it a failure because of how the process has been circumvented They have granted gratuitous interviews to African Americans or have called for that knowing that they had no intention whatsoever of hiring a particular African American candidate. They have interviewed African American candidates in the past knowing that they already made this election. There was somebody that wasn't of African American descent. So you know you're inviting them into a room knowing that they have no chance whatsoever is basically light just treating somebody out to dinner and basic basically your is and crossing your say that we went through that process and is abysmal to to say the least Offensive coordinators that need to be more. There's only two in the national football league environment left. Which and Eric Enemy. We noted every enemy deep definitely deserved a job that I ask the rhetorical question. Maximum Molly should eric be enemy. Coaching column in Arizona. Should it be cliff? Kingsborough who was at Texas Tech was just five games over five hundred. Didn't have a winning record. His last three years and basically did nothing to earn a head coaching job in the National Football League. We see time and time again. With circumstances have taken place where African Americans are. Short changed their placated to some degree and the needs to stop. And as far as I'm concerned the first order of business is highlighting. The Rooney rule has indeed Bene- failure which is why I said that although I don't support the specifics of what a few. Nfl owners had proposed to others just the other day before it was voted on yesterday. I don't I don't. I'm not a proponent of specifics in terms of moving up in the draft or anything like that I think that's a disaster for an African American. Get A head coaching job onto those conditions. I do love the car. I do. Love the fact that the conversation it provoked a conversation rather because the conversation needs to be had. Clearly what you're saying is you don't mind black men in the locker room as laborers performing for you on the field of play but when it comes to being leaders of men or dare. I say leaders of an organization. It's few and far between which. Why guys like Lebron James and others said they refuse to shut up and dribble and why? Nba players continuously. Push to have more power to empower themselves because to do otherwise would mean putting their trust in ownership and clearly. Nfl owners show. They can't be trusted when it comes to valuing African Americans in leadership positions. They clearly don't feel that way and something needs to be done to bring attention to it so again. The Rooney rule has been a failure. I don't think it's fair to call the Rooney rule of failure because the Rooney rule was never designed to be a magic elixir. You know it's not a panacea for racism. The like what's the answer to the question. Why are so called minority coaches people of Color so underrepresented in the head coaching positions in the NFL? And the answer is the broad answer is stem racism right and look at thirty two billionaire. Owners GonNa go out on a limb and say that some of them have racial biases. And then I'll go further out on a limb and say some of them are unaware of their racial bias is but they exist nonetheless. You can say that about most of us. In fact it's part of being a human being and some of them probably are not unaware of their racial biases and the question is how do we have the coaching positions leadership position position of authority high paying jobs? Better reflect the population as it were of the NFL itself the demographic breakdown of the NFL itself more closely resemble it because right. Now there's there's no there's an exact like negative correlation it's the opposite of the demographic composition of the NFL. Well one way is something like a Rooney rule in quotas and quotas systems usually breed resentment because when it comes down to individual cases. You've got to check this box. Come on I gotTa Cross t stop this. I I already know I wanNA hire happens not to be black. I have to bring in a an African American candidate just to satisfy stand why that breeds resentment it also probably has in conjunction with some with other a devices would have a good effect but if you simply have rooney rule and not a better system to put talent in the pipeline. It's not GonNa do it. Obviously the Rooney rule by itself is not going to work unless there are other changes made and what I believe. The lack of diversity among head coaches in the national football league at least racial diversity that that really has as much to do with that is not a reflection of the failure of of the. Rooney rule rather it's the reflection of not enough support around the Rooney rule not enough. The Rooney rule is one tool. Where are the others and so? I think it's unfair to say. That rule has failed in the absence of of stuff. That would help. Make It work his disagree with you? Max and I appreciate your position and I I. I shouldn't say I disagree with you because I don't disagree with anything that you're saying what I would ask you to consider Max however is this when the Rooney rule was instituted in two thousand and three. Do you know what was was. I guess taken for granted to some degree that this is what I call it a failure Max. Essentially what you're asking owners to do is okay. If you have an opening having open mind about who you want to hire and then you bring them in and make your decision after their they. We've seen a litany of instances Max where they've made the decision before you even broaden the minority candidate for the interview. So what I'm saying is if Max if I'm in viewing Max Kellerman for job and I already have decided who the job is going to before I've even called you all before. Live interview Jew. That is complete violation of what the intent of the rule was supposed to be. I don't understand you. Go ahead of the rule this what it seemed to me okay. Usually people do have an idea who they wanna hire before they start. Very seldom is an opening open hiring process. They have a pretty good idea who they want to target. I think the attention of the Rooney rule the positive effect could be to get African American. Like let's let's not mince words. That's really what we're talking about candidates in front of owners because it is an old boys network so you get those candidates in front of owners. They may not get that job. But now they're among the face that the owners know and might consider for fuel eight events but wait a minute. Max rewind the clock to two thousand and three and even African American coaches were saying that that particular moment at Tom we understand. It might be a challenge but having open mind when you bring us in so we know we have a shot. If you know you've already hired somebody even if it's not official Max because you know this you so you've been watching the NFL for years. You noted plenty of instances where the owner had already decided coup. The coach was going to be so much. So that the insiders the Adam. Schefters the Chris. More incentives the J. Glazes of the word and others literally report it. This guy is getting the job but still after you had an interview with the african-american the candidate to make sure that you too is. Of course teams. You had African American coaches sand. Excuse me if you're going to invite us into the process okay. It leaves have an open mind. We notice a favorite. We notice a leading candidate. But give us an opportunity to make a case before you've made your decision and these owners couldn't even grant that that's why I say. The rule is a failure because there's been nothing to address the ability to bypass that process. And that's the problem right. Let's leave it there guys. They're also going to be voting on a plant essentially incentivize teams to hire minorities and they would be rewarded with draft picks. We'll discuss that as well. We're going to bring in another voice. I want to continue this conversation the NFL PA's executive member. Sam Acho will be with us and if owners will meet virtually today and they are expected to amend the rule to require more interviews of minority candidates for coaching positions. Yesterday Anthony. Lynn and Hugh Jackson weighed in on one of the League's proposals to attach a draft pick incentives to minority hires. Take listen do the do the wrong thing trying to do the right thing that makes sense at all so I think that there are a lot of twelve five African American coaches right now. That could be a head coach in Lee and expect. This is out of desperation. This is something that we're throwing out there. I believe this is somewhat of a system problem. You can't put a band aid on it and think it will get fixed. I think this is bigger than just the owners I think this issue is a byproduct of the history of the League. Personally all right a lot to unpack here on that note we welcome in Sam Acho from the NFL PA Executive Committee. Sam Great to have you with US first of all. I hope you and your family are safe and you so much for the time this morning a lot. We want to tackle here. I want to start with the expansion of the Rooney rule which will happen. How much of an impact? Sam Do you think this will actually have on the current situation? I think the expansion of the of the Rooney rule had very minimal impact. I think the problem that I'm seeing with the NFL is that they like making minor changes. That are really insignificant. You go back to the history of the Rooney rule in two thousand and three that was implemented in three years later you at two black coaches coaching in the Super Bowl. I don't know if anyone really understands. How statistically significant that if there's less than a four percent chance that you could have two black coaches in the NFL. Coaching in the Super Bowl. So you saw a huge upswing bear. He saw a major benefit will fast forward seventeen years. Later there's three black coaches currently right now in the NFL head coaches. That's a problem and there have been minor iterations to the rules. So if you keep on making these minor innovations. You're not going to see major change. I need to be there. Needs to be a major up up keevil of the entire system. That's interesting you talk about to black coaches three years later and then all these years later only three black coaches is that are you implying that that's the result of owners or GM's learning to game the system. In other words it was working early on and then they adapted and figured out a way around it. I'm not I'm not implying saying I'm saying that there's there's an opportunity problem. Everyone talks about this being a diversity problem. It's not. There's an opportunity problem in that. Same problem exists in corporate America. The interesting thing about about where we're at now is that it took a pandemic a global pandemic to be able to get a chance just to see what corporate America and the NFL. Looks like you saw people who are in the working class. I'll use this as an example. Seventy to eighty percent African American who are workers. And you've got the general managers and coaches are predominantly white. Three out of the last twenty hires head coaches have been white. That's an issue and you talk about this being an offensive league you talk about being a trend towards offensive coordinators being promoted. Here's the issue with that and and that may be true airbnb office coordinator top in the League. He's not a head coach Bar left which offense coordinator top in the League African American as well. He's not a head coach. And so yes. The system is being circumvented but the issue behind it is an issue of cronyism is really what it is. You've got hired. You got coaches and general managers hiring people who look like them and that's an issue. That's the problem. You're not hiring the best candidate your candidate. You're most comfortable with absolutely SAM. Appreciate you being on the show you don't have to worry about the NFL. You don't have to worry about a committee. It's your decision as to how we can modify this Rooney rule to work effectively. What exactly would you propose out proposed to major changes. I wouldn't even consider the incentive the draft picks would I would propose I would propose a change in the entry level positioning of coaches so for example. Most seems to have two to four quality control coaches. I wouldn't mandate that. Two of those are half two of the four R. Minority Coaches Number One and number two out of medicine of having at least not only are increasing the number of coaches who are interviewed for head coach. Gm jobs but you need to have a minimum percentage call it thirty percent of coaches that get a chance to have this opportunity to be a head coach in the NFL. I think that unless you see massive changes you're not gonNA make any kind of providence in so number one. I would have entry level positions available for minority coaches whether it's interviews or even just having opportunity to get in front of a coach but also you need to be able to have an opportunity to be in the NFL NBA coach. Have that job. Because let's get you get you get you get the job. You work away happy ladder and hopefully get the opportunity and then at a higher level you also need to be able to be a head coach in the NFL. If you're minority San Sam. What are your thoughts about my suggesting that there needs to be some kind of objective criteria? That's put in place where you have to have for example you need to be you need to be a coordinator before you become a head coach. I don't care whether it's special. Teams offense defense. Whatever the case may be in other words. You've got to crawl before you walk. You can't go to junior high school. Let you complete elementary school. You can't go to high school in unless you complete junior high school. It amazes me that there have been some coaches that have been allowed to bypass leapfrog over so many other guys despite being devoid of the qualifications necessary. Shouldn't there be something along those lines included in that mix the Stephen A. Even if there was something along those lines that still wouldn't solve our opportunity issued. I wouldn't solve our problem of France hiring France at the end of the day. Steven you're great at your job. You are great at your job. One of the best based on all the statistics at your job. All you ask for was an opportunity. That's all you ask for all these coats. They're not. We're not asking for specific criteria. Because unlike clair's you can measure players based on their sats. Their forty yard dash number of sacks tackles. You can't really measure that for coaches and so even if there was a specific pipeline to matches point a little bit. There would be wasted circumvent and so. I'm going to ask him for that. I'm asking for minimum percentage of new hires especially when it comes from the bottom up quality control to be people of color to be minorities to be women. That's all I'm asking for. I'm not asking you change sweeping changes. But we've got to get somewhere and I think that's a start expression you know you have to be twice as good right to get the to get to the same place. If you're African American have color line ninety. What's that right? I look at the baseball twice. Forty seven Yep Yep exactly nineteen forty seven Jackie Robinson Larry Doby and the national and American Leagues. The difference in baseball is they're calling from the Negro Leagues like an almost all star level players in the NFL. Because it's more subjective. And because they're insulated from real business pressures because you can't lose money as an owner. It's not as though only the best coaches are getting jobs. It's coaches that. It's dependent upon relationships. It dependent upon. Who's going to take the salary etc? How do you address that? How do you address isn't that isn't that? Would go a long way toward making sure. The best coaches got hired. Right if you somehow incentivized teams to hire based on ability. Here's here's the issue Max teams owners especially. Nfl owners should be incentivized to win. Games African Americans whether you're coach or a player minorities in general. We'll help you win. Games look at statistics. Let's go back. Everyone's been watching the last dance. M J M J changed the culture of Basketball African Americans look at Tiger Woods. Tiger Woods changed the culture of Golf. Let's talk about the Williams sisters Venus and Serena they changed the culture of tenants. And so my plea my ask my goal for any. Nfl owners that. If you want to have a winning franchise and a winning team increase your opportunity to win by adding minority candidates. They're only gonNA make game better. That's all they're going to do. There's nothing to be afraid up. There's nothing to fear. The only goal is to win. And that's your goal. Then you should be available and willing and excited about interviewing and adding minority coaches and people of Color Sam. That's an excellent point. You made with all those examples and in all the various sports. I want you to elaborate on something you said earlier. The incentives with draft picks. Because personally and I'm not black. It doesn't sit right with me and I understand that they're trying to do the right thing here. But there's just something that feels very wrong about it. Please tell me why you think that is not the right move. Her Molly Molly incentivize. You can't incentivize someone to do what they want to do. Because even if they do it for a time before season eventually ask me see now with the Rooney rule. It's going to go back to the way it always was and so if you said about someone you give them six draft picks African American coach. You give them ten draft picks higher for African American General Manager. Maybe a year or two or three like we saw with the won't thousand three. You'll see a slight influx in in African American coaches. But the problem is not gonNA last couple of years ago. Was It last year? Five out of the eight coaches fired where African Americans and you know who was hired. They weren't African Americans. And so the issue once again. It goes back to two. Nfl owners hiring general managers. Who Look like them. General Managers Hi- hiring coaches who look like them or who are who are friends with them who they owed something to. I've been the NFL for nine years one of my tenth year in the NFL. I don't know how many bad coaches I've been around bad coaches. The only guys have jobs. It's because they were friends with different coach. Not only have I seen this. I've been asked to give a coaching job. Hey give put in a good word for me during your exit interview even though even though I know this coach isn't the best qualified guy but he knows the guy who knows who knows the guy. That's that's that's the issue and the only reason that that this that this I call it. Call it nepotism cronyism. Call it what you want. The only reason that this is an issue is that the people in position of power all look one way they all look. Let's go back to Tony Dungy for a quick example Steven it Real Quick Tony. Dungy thousand six hundred sixty one. A Super Bowl right. Who did he play? Who Coach against Costa Against Costa gets? Go bears lovey. Smith love gave his first job in the NFL. In one thousand nine hundred seventy that it was totally deadly so this whole lot of cronyism. Is it really that bad of an idea I understand? You can't measure statistics based off of coaching. It's like a lot of wins. But you have more talent. It's based on what you're comfortable with the more African American coaches or or minority coaches better. Yet you haven't positions of power the more equal you'll see our game become well also we got a point two two two white folks in the NFL. Being a bit more conscientious. Look at what Matt Leflore is doing in Green Bay with his minority program. I gotta give him props for that. Which I did a couple of weeks ago but I will ask you this and I'll close this out with this last question the fact that we're sitting here in the year twenty twenty and having this conversation about the National Football League. What does that say to you about the league? What does that say to you about these owners today? The interesting thing about this conversation Stephen. A. Zach this conversation was sparked and these changes started to happen because the draft was nationally televised because of a global pandemic. We got a chance to see that glass ceiling that everyone talks about corporate America. We got a chance to see it. The interesting thing is if we didn't get a chance to see this glass ceiling we wouldn't be having these conversations. African American coaches would still be sitting in their same seats hoping for Change Women in the coaching. Ranks would still be hoping for change and not getting a chain so. I'm actually glad that this pandemic caused us to get a chance to view. What a lot of African Americans or women or any minority has been experiencing for a long long time. Got a chance to it with our eyes and now all of America chance to see it and so I'm actually excited that these changes are being issues. Thirty donor not enough. It's not enough so let's VM's in their. Sam Max to that comment real quick. There's thirty one wider owners. We talked about wanting to diversity and ownership. They're all these criteria which are great to be an owner. But here's here's another criteria yet to be voted and approved to be an owner so if there are thirty one white owners really thirty yacht con in Jacksonville. If there's thirty wide owners imagine owner a woman who wants to own a team or person of color and yes. There are six women who own teams based off of a statistics. White women who teams. But if you want to have a woman or a person of color only team it's not gonNA happen because he's thirty wide owners aren't going to vote them it just what it is. They don't look comfortable with Sam. We got to let you go. I'd have to say it's unfortunate and frankly embarrassing that we still have to have this conversation in twenty twenty but I appreciate you still fighting the good fight being here with us today and being such a representative voice. Thank you so much for the time and hope to talk to you in the near future. This really was an excellent interview.