Episode 285: The Electors Have Spoken

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Black rifle coffee company. It's a veteran. owned coffee. Company serving premium. Coffee to people who love america veteran. Ceo and founder. Evan hafer spent over seven years on the ground overseas with us special forces and as a cia contractor even modified his gun trucks during the invasion of iraq to grind. Coffee anywhere giving back to those. Who serve is at the core of black rifles culture. This year alone. Black rifle has donated more than a million cups of coffee to frontline workers through their signature by a bag gag. Initiatives including active-duty troops first responders medical workers and wildland firefighters. 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The podcast from the claremont institute more about them in due. Course if you listen to podcasts on national review dot com directly on the corner delighted to have you but it would be easier for you and better for us he made as part of your feet at the streaming services out there from spotify to itunes. If you like what you hear here please consider giving us a glowing. Five star review on itunes. If you don't like what you hear here please forget. I said anything. So charlie not unexpectedly. The supreme court came down and said seven to. We're not going to hear this case from texas. You had alito and thomas saying well actually we should hear it but we're not gonna say we'd give texas remedy. They just have a view on these of cases of so-called original jurisdiction the supreme court basically just needs to take them up a regardless of the merits trump and others said look spring core. It just ducked out a cowardly way and relied on the technicality of standing to avoid grappling with the evidence of a fraudulent election. That's all around us sweaty. Make as we discussed last time standing not the county standing as an enormous part of the system and if applied properly which it often is not is a great guarantee tool of federalism and protector of liberty. I am not well versed enough in the doctrine of original jurisdiction to know whether in this case alito thomas were correct. My on educated view as expressed on the lost episode of this podcast was that i could not see the standing argument and that i believe conservatives would regret this case being taken and ruled upon either way it is worth reiterating that this was not a seven two decision it was not the case that two justices sided with the trump administration. Either in the specifics of this suit all the overarching claim that the election was stolen. Nobody did never got that far and the dissent from the denial was cleared to point out that this was not a decision that should be conceived of as a pre echo of any merit spaced jurisprudence. The case was weak. The justice spend a lot of time fighting over what seemed like the technicalities over the ancillary parts of the law. I cannot believe that had this reached the court. It would have been anything other than nine. Nothing it seems to me that we have reached the end of the road. This was according to the president. The big push huge news and it got nowhere. Didn't even draw one justice saying that he believed it would prevail on the merits. The electro college yesterday confirmed that the next president of the united states is joe biden. Mitch mcconnell the senate. Majority leader congratulated. Joe biden this morning for having won the election which he did this process. Look silly two weeks ago. It looks ridiculous now. Every avenue has been exhausted if that were an enormous plan. A plot if that were massive evidence of wrongdoing. If there were enough miscast or overturned or fraudulently switch votes to overturn the result. We would have seen them. I doubt that has ever been an investigation into an election as rigorous is this one. I doubt they have ever been more court cases in more different places. I doubt anyone has ever seen a case of the sort that texas brought to the supreme court. This is done and it shouldn't have taken the supreme court to tell us that. So michael one argument as i alluded to against decision as well that they didn't they didn't consider the merits. So this doesn't really tell us anything but One i it's it's kind of. It's not in this particular case. It's not technical question whether texas has the ability to challenge the election results in other states like that sort of the whole ballgame but almost simultaneously. I guess maybe the next day a federal judge in wisconsin the other trump nominee. He trump nominated this year. Ludwig he took up a case and said you know what trump team you have. Standing in in this case. And i'm going to rule on the merits of various claims and their three of them having to do with very selection procedures in wisconsin. I said none of them had any merit whatsoever. In fact one of the items. They're complaining about Forget which one exactly now but was wasn't something undertaken in an underhanded way it right before this election it was a a a rule that had been standing since prior to the two thousand sixteen election. So this has been a thread throughout lot of the decision. Smacking down the trump lawyer. Which is you could have objected to the stuff beforehand if you thought it was terrible but you didn't because you're just looking for reason after the fact to try to overturn your loss right. It's been interesting to i mean. One of the reasons the texas lawsuit should have failed even if it had standing of any kind was because the other lawsuits in the states that texas had a problem with were failing right. I mean it was sort of like an end run. attempt And what we've seen is something Josh barrow pointed out which is whenever republicans can give entirely symbolic Support to president trump in this effort. They seem inclined to do so But whenever he tries to solicit actual help from state legislators her puts the matter before judges who he appointed or who are you know republican appointees before conservatives the consistently declining to help him. And you know one of the kind of interesting things about this right has been for all the talk of trump's attempted coup. I mean this was all done out in the open lawfully and what you saw was the kind of master class that the president of the united states has no ability to pressure these local institutions in these local courts and in fact the courts have a huge ability to temper the claim that trump is making at least legally speaking right. I mean there. There are penalties for wasting the court's time with nonsense. They're penalties for making charges. You know to be false or completely unsubstantiated in court and the threat of those penalties as Andy mccarthy keeps pointing out on. Our site has consistently slimmed-down these legal challenges until they're not material to the election So yeah it's been it. It's a little weird though because we now have to track politics or at least more explicitly to track than ever of what the president is tweeting. What's being said on the you know the more populous right media networks outlets and then what's happening in court which is almost entirely disconnected from the tweets. And what's what's spreading on. Instagram and twitter and on you know oh a. n. network And i'm wondering what. I'm still wondering what that legacy is going to be. Or how long that's sustainable. You know if if there are people out there who are still think. There's some miracle way before. Joe biden is inaugurated You know what's there offramp. What is there or who do they blame. Do they turn on. Trump trump seems to You know. I don't think so. I don't think so either i mean also is is this is also partly the legacy of trump bringing in all these people who are kind of marginally attached to the system is that people were marginally attached to the system of governance. You know they're fine people but they don't know how the voting works so they don't know how to trust it. They don't know that you know they don't know about election observers and how the you know the the very mechanics of the election so there. They are more susceptible to these theories of the fixed being in You mentioned you mentioned tweets that we're recording early tuesday afternoon. right after. Mcconnell gave speech on the senate floor congratulating biden and the tweets crazier than than ever. There was a re tweets. And i know we're supposed to but by trump's telling nut retreat somehow don't count but there was a tweet of lynn Of lynnwood tweet saying that camp and raft burger should go to jail with an image of camping. Raffles burger wearing chinese communist. Party face masks. And then they're they're all these tweets about dominion still and allies about dominion switching seventy percent of the votes. so charlie Obviously trump is a no meat note mood to conceal her knowledge. Reality anytime soon and the latest tack to kinda keep this effortless theoretically alive. You had trump electors and these contested states appointing themselves. I guess as electors. I don't know how that would work. They say there's some precedent in hawaii when in nineteen sixty the governor appointed nixon electors kennedy electors appointed themselves saying the recount. Kennedy should win. Actually kennedy did win in the recount and then the governor ended up sending both slates on washington and the kennedy electric were accepted with vice president. Nixon presiding because kennedy Had actually one. But i am not sure i've seen people saying that the senate will have to congress will have to take these trump electors regardless of how absurd the fact pointing selves is. But what what's your take on this. The big picture answer to this question. Is that if this plan. Were executed represent a coup. Every system in the world has an escape hatch. Every system in the world is ultimately reliant upon its participants. Good faith we hear a great deal about the electoral college about the eighteenth century nature of our system. But you could overturn an election in any system in a parliamentary system. The president could having lost the election. He would of course be a prime minister simply call and one. I would be doable. Within a parliamentary system would also be a disgrace. The idea here is to hijack the mechanisms of our electoral system and use them to parachute the losing candidate in for a second tom. This is a totally different thing than using the system s it was designed so much nonsense spoken in our politics about the electoral college about the senate but the national popular vote for this or that about federalism. We all know the rules. The rules include the electoral college. The rules include the senate. These aren't the rules. There is nowhere in our system room for the hijacking the electoral college by alternative slate. There is nobody who went into this election or any other election thinking that if the losing candidate spent enough time complaining about the result costing aspersions about the process he could prevail upon state legislatures. Keep it open ended for as long as possible by convening alternative slates. I understand that. There is a precedent. Here i understand that there is a process here. I understand that. Technically the electoral college vote yesterday was not final. I know it can be challenged. But that's irrelevant. We are not looking at an escape hatch moment. If for example we got to january second and so much evidence of fraud came to light that the biden team said you know what lost i lost by a lot. Seventy percent of the country voted for the president's it looked. It looked different. Sure we can talk about what nurse to do in that scenario. But that's not what's happened here. This is an attempt to cheat. And i think more cynically. It's an attempt to keep alive. The hopes of people who should never have had any hope in the first place once the votes had been counted. Again it is time to move on that. There is a time during every prospective conservative victory that fringe websites such as the daily coast. Put together a lunatic scheme. Those who follow senate procedure will will know what i'm talking about. They were going to stop cavanaugh from being seated there. We're gonna make sure america island with seated there. We're gonna stop amy coney barrett from being seated. We're gonna make shoal that the senate would meet and it'd be thirty eight of them and that will be a core. According to some rule from one thousand nine hundred twenty six they found and it's risible and every time it happens conservatives love you know. They say we're allowed to win too. Well aren't like joe biden. I don't like the democratic party. He's allowed to win and he did and trying to burn down. The system is not only deeply unsportsmanlike and deeply corrosive to our culture but will set a precedent that will obviously be used in conservatives. Win this is. This is insanity. So michael you've had senate republicans now coming out. You had whole bunch yesterday. Monday that different than than the usual crew. You know. you're gonna have ask and romney to spoken out against this but this reach further into the caucus yet. Cornyn thune alexander other saying time to give this up and then as we mentioned earlier mcconnell this morning given a speech on the senate floor this is significant. Not just because these most of these people have been quite. Trump is pursued these claims but if trump's scenarios can have any hope you need the senate to accept trump electors and you have many many many more now. republicans Than you would trump trump would need to hold all three three republicans or something and the numbers now much bigger than that. Obviously they're not going to go with the rogue trump electors in any form whatsoever. Yeah i mean it's like. I said there's whenever like a real help material help in overturning. The election is solicited. It no one takes it up. You know no-one no-one elected takes it up or no one. In a position of authority takes it up. That's a good thing And you know it will be interesting though to see i you know. I'm kinda looking at some of these senatorial statements and some of the reporting in the past day. Or so about joe biden's team reaching out to mitch mcconnell And feeling out mcconnell for where there might be a possible agenda in the future But if trump himself wants to if he continues to be interested in politics and in pure attention seeking it does seem that he has the ability to kind of mute republicans or or freeze their their ability to move on past him right. I mean there has been all this like lip service and like i said maybe a few weeks ago maybe in the week after the election you know the senate senators could look at the results and say all right. Well he's taking a couple of cases to court. Let's see where this goes and then will speak out afterwards You know al gore had time to to file his suits and get his recounts so we can wait until a later point But eventually the machine starts turning. The gsa starts opening funds for transition. And this is. This is now happening so It's appropriate that the senators are welcoming the next president. I mean in a way what we're dealing with his Somewhat uncharted right. I mean there's there are no rules about what a senator has to say right in like we're we're almost like I don't know inventing this like the senators or some kind of rome in court or something who has to approve of the new caesar They're not but it is good to see them. Acknowledge reality And like. I said. I'm wondering where where those who are persisting in their disbelief in this election. Where where will they be able to turn to for comfort. If everyone carries on like normal in january thought initially the posture of most senate. Republicans was understandable. If not great You know give trump some time to process this. He should be able to pursue recounts and go into court. That's his right. But then when it when it became actively an explicitly and effort to overturn the election. They're still had their had their heads heads down at least at now there You know as as time has ticked off the clock. Now now finally. They're speaking out. But that's segue troy to the exit question to you first before this is all over. President trump will explicitly be attacking and at war with the entire republican caucus senate caucus. Yes or no tell now every instinct. I have says yes. Of course he will. But then i seen him running campaigns in georgia in favor of purdue and leffler and i'm aware that his son on junior is criticizing those who have declared war on all republicans asked his breitbart. I think he's more likely to praise the hundred and twenty odd house members and senators. Who joined with him and then disparage the others without going all out much to the see michael. Don jr. brings up an charlie brings interesting point. Don no i mean just on june bellingham. Don jr. have have a great point it really same fate. Boda is don. Jr. may have you know may be starting to nurse designs on thinking of a senate seat in his future or or some other elected office so that that would complicate the all out war with the republican party and again that's being That's being the all out war with the republican party. Sort of the province of the. What remains of the alt-right. Like these nick fuentes or these other rabble rousers that showed up at the jericho march. But you know said that their mission was to destroy the gop. i don. I don't think he's gonna go that far precisely because you know. It's the republican party. That's going to carry donald trump's legacy within itself for years to come to whatever degree And so going in all out war against that may not really being his long term interest of his legacy. Whatever that is yes. sorry. I shouldn't have used the word all all out war I'm getting more at it. Will he be denouncing senate republicans when they more of them come out with these statements and when almost none of them Support his his electors. And may maybe it's close call. But i think he will He held at some point. Denounce these guys just kind of the logic of Position let's find the kind of gives in and says okay. It's over which. I don't see him doing the logic of his position. Love love these guys in with camp ratzenberger dc and the the other alleged traitor so with that. Let's pause and hear from first sponsor this episode black rifle. Coffee company is a veteran owned coffee. Company serving premium. Coffee to people who love america veteran. Ceo and founder. Evan hafer spent over seven years on the ground overseas with us special forces and as a cia contractor then even modified his gun trucks during the basin of iraq to grind coffee anywhere giving back to those who serve as core of black rifles culture. This year alone black rifle has donated more than a million cups of coffee to frontline workers through their signature by give a bag initiative including active duty troops first responders medical workers and would woodland firefighters. There's nothing better than starting your day with america's coffee maker holidays better by giving the gift of black rifle coffee good black rifle coffee dot com today and check out the best coffee in america. You can save twenty percent when you use the code and are twenty shop black rifles custom-designed bundles for everyone on your list or keep it simple with their all new gifted coffee subscriptions and digital gift cards as i mentioned many times before had evan on a special episode. He's real deal. Great american great entrepreneurs star this business in his garage truly loves coffee loves. America loves people who sacrifice so much for america and to keep us safe. So this is a no brainer. If you love coffee love. America go checkout lack rifle coffee and get. Get some deals for yourself and from people on your christmas list again. Black rifle coffee promo code and are twenty so nbd. After electoral college voted on monday. Last night you had. Joe biden giving a speech that Is one of my colleagues editorial meeting recently. The great advantage that biden has is he. He gives these these totally banal speeches with All these platitudes picked up from the floor of american politics that we had to write a a presidential speech president-elect speech in two minutes the this kind of the lines and the phrases we go to but since trump never says them or only says of unconvincingly from the teleprompter before tweeting. What he really thinks they they have. They have some power. What did you make the speech. I'm as you know. I read it. I on the page and it seemed like you know an im- a return to know it seemed like a return to normalcy. You know although that far it seemed like the kind of instantly forgettable bit of presidential. You know talk speech that you would get at any time and a little bit boring and maybe that has its virtues right after four years of trump right like the just as a matter of the national mood just getting a change from the weird blaring rhetoric of trump and his weird off the cuff asides but then when i looked at a clip of the speech biden was like fighting off a cough or trying to clears throat throughout much of it. He kind of limped on out to the podium kind of limped away because of his foot injury. And th the the if this was an attempt at like restoring the normal drama of the presidency had kind of actually failed it kind of emphasize that no this is still kind of a weird strange time and we have an we had unusual president in donald trump. And we may have an unusual one in joe biden who just seems like much frailer her and weaker than the joe biden. I think we all know from his senate career and his career vice president. So i i found like odd. I know that maybe we've been out there on the limb on this podcast about joe biden's frailty and health but like i just couldn't stop thinking about it when i looked at that clip that you know this. This is a guy who looks like he's getting sick right as i'm watching him and I don't know it just was not the kind of confidence restoring tomek that i think a lot of media outlets are looking for right now like i think the the goodwill joe biden has the mainstream media is off the charts and they're looking for ways to praise him. He's kind of undermining that effort Return with his cabinet picks and now the way he's kinda starting off his initial performance leading up to an inauguration day. Try a credit cards. Do i think is points about the election of what trump's trying to do they they landed and unfortunately they're fair and accurate enough. But i disagree with michael Sorry i i said i agreed might have sounded like i disagree. I said i just agree with michael. That I just have a terrible feeling. Normality is never going to arrive. He just seemed incredibly. Frail little bit is the lint which which will presumably go away but the cough was a little disturbing and just the this is not a vigorous presence. You know this is not what we expect from from the the american president or maybe charlie might welcome kind of a physically reduce co president right to begin to cut this office down size but just fear. There's there's gonna be some. The normality is not gonna arrive. 'cause you're gonna be some crisis somewhere along the line here. My twenty eight. Th amendment would mandate that any president break at least one of his limbs and have a cult throughout his presidency to tamp down any fervor that anyone might feel for the executive. I don't think michael you need to feel nervous about saying that. He looked frail he did even fox's aaron rupaul's picture in the dictionary under the word hack said last night that biden struggle to get through his speech. He could barely talk. He looked weak. he did. He's a seventy eight year old man. He's a seventy eight year. Old man just broke his ankle. It's the seventy eight year old man in the midst of a pandemic who although he didn't campaign vigorously will nevertheless have felt the strains look at how old brock obama looked after four years of being president. Joe biden's just starting. He's week he will not return to normal. See as the expectation is but he is a great deal. More normal than president trump. He's more normal because he's been around politics for almost fifty years. That's a bad thing in some ways. It's a good thing and others. He is more normal. Because he speaks in platitudes and generalities instead of tweeting or caps and he is more normal because this rich says in this case he's right. I have a lot of the rhetoric over the last four or five years to be ridiculous but in this circumstance what joe biden said was correct. The democratic party has an unfortunate habit of using the woods democracy to mean progressive priorities but in this context. Joe biden is right to talk about democracy. He's right to describe the electoral college meeting and certifying him. The winner of the election that he won as democracy prevailing. he's right to describe the endless low-fare and costing of aspersions a stunning. He is right to say that it is time to turn the page. It is he will not be a normal president. He's much older. he is much weaker. He comes into office without congress which is unusual. He is not particularly representative of his party. Although he may be representative of his party's voters. But i'm afraid if you put him up next to president trump the moment he's not only the normal one he's a virtuous one and that's a real shame from my perspective as somebody who is not a fan of joe biden has never been a fan of joe biden. But it's also true. I thought the speech was okay. I thought it underscored his weakness but biden has an enormous advantage. Here and that is that he is in the right. The subject of his speech was the election. He won that election. He hasn't played games with that election. He didn't prematurely claimed victory in election. He said and he hasn't tried to overturn it or finesse. It or damage trust in it and while that may not seem like a an action worthy of praise given the alternative at the moment certainly is x. Question you nbd president. Joe biden and mitch. Mcconnell will have a good working relationship yes or no. No no no. they won't. The biden administration will proceed with a lot of executive orders that make conservatives and conservative media go bonkers rightfully and. They'll just be too much pressure on the republican party to you know put on as many breaks as possible chili cook. I think they will have a good working. Relationship and biden will end up governing mostly by executive orders that will drive conservatives bonkers. Say shift the differences between barrack. Obama and joe biden are enormous so it was a piece in politico about a year ago by i think. Very isaac isaac. I've never heard it said another by. And i think it was written from a pro obama's perspective. Certainly it was full of pro obama leaks but i read it and others national review dot com read it. I know and thought that obama came out looking terrible and biden came out looking good biden according to this piece would have lawmakers into his office clothing mitch mcconnell and say what do you need. What is the line. you can't cross. What is your pace. Think about this. what can't you do. what can you do. And then obama would walk in and say republicans of raw on this question and it would blow up. I think biden will have a good relationship with mitch mcconnell. I understand that their friends and have been for a while. I think mitch mcconnell will nevertheless the line on any republican priorities. I think there is potential for compromise. You will see it. And i think because of the conflicting imperatives of the two parties biden will almost cheerfully resort to executive orders of dubious legality. That will drive us up the wall. So i guess a little bit in between the they'll have a good relationship won't be hateful relationship when there must pass spending bills that they'll be able to sit down and negotiate it out and reasonable way but does not give an inch otherwise and biden. I think eventually even though he sounded pretty reasonable on the so far about the limits of his executive authority. There's just no way he's not gonna end up pushing the envelope there out of his own frustration of not being able to get stuff through congress and and also getting pushed by his own Base and that will further incentive says mcconnell not not to not to give an inch so I guess at all up. And i'm going to say no with that. Let's hear from the next sponsor this week. The american story. It's a free weekly short-form podcast. That answer reveal remind listeners. Of the goodness of our country hosts chris flannery at the clermont. Astute explores the ideas events and people that shaped the american way of life and our understanding of what it is to be american as the united states because increasingly disunited the american story brings citizens together with stories of hope honor and dedication to the common cause of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness recent episodes feature george washington martin. Luther king abigail adams wild bill hickok jackie robinson as well as delving into some of the consequential and hotly contested elections in our history especially the election of eighteen hundred and of eighteen sixty. These episodes are called ballots for bullets. Again the american story a free weekly podcast available on all platforms. You can check it out and subscribe for free on apple. Podcasts google podcasts spotify or on your preferred podcast platform and find out more at the american story. Podcast dot org. That's the american story. Podcast dot org. Please check it out so charlie. Speaking of disunited we had allen west. Great guy hugely charismatic figure really talented. Communicator was a congressman in florida moved to texas and is now chairman of the texas party and when the spring court shutdown the taxes suit allen west is out with a tweet or a statement or instagram post. I don't know what it was saying. That maybe the law-abiding states that really devoted to the constitution should go off on their own because this would be so lawful and so worthy of constitution go out on their own make their own way with separate nation then when he was pressed on this said no what what i really meant was like maybe the the non law law abiding non constitution honoring parts of the country. Maybe they'll go. Maybe they'll go off on their own so they'll be the secessionist and this has been maybe not as explicitly as allen west. Put it but this is something clear. That's been the air in the air since the election and republican hear more of it. What do you make of it. I think we ought to acknowledge upfront. This does happen. After elections in various ways after george w bush won the second time in two thousand and four widely shed me about splitting the country into jesus land. I think it was cool. And whatever the other states decided they should be termed in two thousand sixteen secession sentiment in california rose not high. I often shocked people by telling them that over. The last twenty is the state that is most pro. Most consistently is not texas but vermont is in the especially just after a plebiscite. But it's not healthy. Now there are of course circumstances in which it is necessary to revolt. It would be somewhat peculiar for champions of the american revolution such as ourselves to deny that. But what's happened here. Is that in a closely contested and fair election. One of the candidates marginally one. What's it if allen west said what he said. The day off to. Joe biden sent the military to silence his critics and confiscate firearms. Wow okay. I would join him. But i think it's worth putting this into context the one thing and let me add a caveat here. I will almost certainly be spitting fire. The biden administration once it starts governing but the one thing joe biden has said since the election other than we need to return to normalcy and to turn the page and all of that is that he's not going to do anything unconstitutional. We'll see whether he keeps his word. But he explicitly gave the example of assault weapon so cooled the argument he had with comma harris salon. Thing the guy said it seems somewhat premature to start talking about secession or suggesting that the other parts of the country secede which is a cop-out no usage we need to bring down the temperature here and keep our conversations to facts and to real injuries if you like. We need to apply strict standing. Rules to secession talk. There was no advantage to free floating. Talk of secession. One thing here. Which is my standard plea for federalism when california and many within it. Talking about secession. For years ago. I wrote a piece for the los angeles times saying you do not need to secede you need to insist on a more robust federal structure. So that you don't freak out. If the president you dislike is elected that should be the primary objective of all americans but especially conservatives who already believe in that. We need to work hard to limit our exposure to a president. We don't like it's easier said than done but it is far preferable to secession and it certainly should come before even entertaining the idea aloud so michael prior to the civil war at least there was a colorful case. That states could go out in and leave. I think they were wrong about that. I think i find lincoln's arguments really compelling but now is just settles question and what we're talking about here. You know sessions in nice word for talking about insurrection. We're talking about revolution. Charlie alludes to and probably violent revolution because the federal government is not gonna allow the the nation to be torn apart in his assets taken by by some wayward state. So this is a ridiculous fantasy but Poisonous one especially if it gets more traction yes i mean it's a poisonous won the reflect these you know the deep divisions in our country right. I mean we really do have the polarization that we've seen on partisan lines reflect real moral differences In many cases and in fact i mean the the country has this in its dna right that like if it's the early settlers were religious dissidents right who didn't want us exactly And so i think it's part of the american psyche is to imagine a way of separating from the evil within your community in refounding new one And you know that that psyche expression in many ways Through the history of the country not just with the founding new states and new communities new religions like the church of latter day saints But striking out west and and finding new frontiers California at self right was a kind of a attempt to it. it's it's kind of bound up with his idea of reinvention And escaping fate and making your life yourself so mean. I think this is just something that's going to be deep in us And yeah i mean and y- vermont have little secessionist. You know Romances during the bush years. I mean it's based on a real thing i mean. Vermont existed as a kind of independent republic for fourteen years before joined The united states. you know and asserted its independence against back in new york and new hampshire Which you know none. None of whom seem to care that much about an independent vermont. At the time was up as expected. It would join the new united states So i i don't know this is something that's within us and it's something to manage and typically the united states managed this this impulse this restarted impulse by having either new frontiers to explore externally with Open territory to claim or new frontiers in the market or in science in culture And that would be healthier than Doing this all through politics. And i expect this. Trend is going to get worse Because the moral divisions in this country are touching on and of bedrock ideas about what it means to be human and for many people there touching on core fundamental religious convictions. About you know what it is to be a man or woman or how. Society should be organized. So i i don't know if i just think this is a flare up I think allen west is a bit of a hothead i mean. He's a charismatic. One shore but Yeah i think this is just going to be a persistent temptation. In american life yeah. I reviewed this book by left. Wing guy richard kreiner couple months ago. Basically making the case for secession from left wing perspective and something that he was persuasive. Von is that this has been division has been an idea throughout our history and people very often talked about it or gotten on the cusp of attempting it but with the exception of war where it was ended up being a miserable failure by the way but otherwise. It's it's just never happened so talking about this. At least is is the norm chocolate question to you somewhere along the next four years texas or some other red state will defy and some serious way federal authority. Yes or no no more seriously than has happened over the last twenty years in various contexts including say immigration enforcement. Now i think we'll see huge numbers of lawsuits many of which will have married. I don't think they will be nullification crisis over the next four years now. Embiid heap angry with charlie. But if you the timeline out beyond for years i could definitely see nullification becoming Another another tool that gets picked up in the toolbox arguably it already has in colorado with the drug laws. I'm going to say no the agree with nbd. I thought california would try something. A second trump term. Say if there's a second there Should say second biden term right. I should say if comma harris or someone wins Another four years for for the democrats than i think you could see something more serious develop but best to tamp down this talk now and with that. Let me pause and urge everyone if they have the wherewithal to consider contributing to the national institute for It's end of the year campaign at awry recognizes the threat to american institutions. That is heightened over the past several months in response arise refined existing programs lauch new ones aimed at defending our system of government and free market economy from those who fail to understand appreciate their crucial role and our republic and our is making key investments to meet this moment in advance its mission into twenty twenty one and beyond so invites you to join it by becoming a member of its dedicated community of supporters. The nineteen fifty five society members can take part of with and discussions with the likes of andy mccarthy. Who's an awry fellow can become part of virtual book clubs within our writers including douglas. Murray a movie club with kevin williamson and kyle smith monthly webinars and so much more joins critical time at our. I need your film fabric support to advance and our mission and sport and ours. Writers joined today by giving tax deductible gift. It's a nonprofit a tax deductible gift to arrive visit. Www dot and our institute dot org for more information that's www dot and our institute dot org join. And are i as it helps at our stand for history. Yelling staff so nbd. Let's hit a few other things before we go. Your family has has an annual tradition of cookie day around this time of year. Yeah just before. Christmas holidays i may have mentioned this in the past The my wife and her sisters and mother usually get together with you know. The kids grandkids all piling on house. And where their pajamas. All day and bake All the cookies and desserts that will be consumed over christmas for the big get togethers And through the knee ear This is going to be some serious endemic era modifications to this But it will it will go on. There will be pajamas warren. They'll just be some zoom connecting various kitchens across the region In this agus tradition. But it's just one of these things that's built up over time and it's kind of special for the kids special for the adults really To have these kinds of excuses and reasons to get together right. It's it's it's gone from something that was kind of fun to something. That's like important And and what. The job is all days. It has to be a good time. Yeah i mean. Usually the woods funny is usually the husband's end up. You know monitoring the little ones and and watching sports because it happens on a weekend so You know usually there's some football too good and charlie you've been all spent also been engaged. Kristen activity making gingerbread house making a gingerbread house. My wife took the lead. But then i was given certain tasks for example i was allocated the job of hanging the lights. These little colored candies. That looked like bulbs. Put them all the way under the roof and around the dole. And i was so proud of it because by the time that i got to do this. The gingerbread house was beautiful. My wife had done sixty percent of it with the kids took a step back. Took a photograph and then it was the kids turn. So what we've ended up with is a genuinely beautiful gingerbread house in a yard. That looks like it is not only unmaintained but was selectively subject to a hurricane all little trees are over my two year old put random colored icing everywhere and then stuck things in it of course started to pick up anything that they could to this little mocks whether once candies so i've come to the conclusion that making a gingerbread house is actually not for kids at all because they ruin it. It's an adult so next giant. Lock them in the basement and make one of my own so a couple of episodes ago. I discussed the call of the a goal by supposedly the grace goal ever by diego mirjana. You're doing this again so close to already ruined my thanksgiving and now you're doing christmas. So a an eagle ear listener wrote in and said no richard totally wrong. That was not the greatest force call ever instead. It was called bhai. Guy named bordj below ellen. Who when the norwegian announcer and when norway beat england in the world cup in nineteen eighty-one not to be confused with argentina's defeat of england in the mid eighties. They produce the other call. Frank maintains that this is really the best sports call ever. So i'm just going to go through it and you know i. I don't have view one way or the other. I gonna be ecumenical about this. But but there's this whole subset of soccer calls particularly soccer recalls involving humiliations of the english national team that i wasn't aware of and again i'm gonna aficionado of a great sports calls so here this. He blows the final whistle. Norway has beaten england. two to one. We are the best in the world. It's unbelievable we have beaten england. England home of giants lured nelson. Lord beaverbrook sir winston churchill. Sir anthony eden clement atlee henry cooper lady diana. We have beaten all of them maggie thatcher. Can you hear me manufacture. We have a message for you under the election campaign. We have not out england for the world. Cup maggie thatcher as they say in berlin mega thatcher in the boxing bars around madison square garden. In new york your boys took a hell of a beating. Your boys took a hell of a beating maggie thatcher. Norway has beaten england and football. We are the best in the world so that. Nbd it's time for texts pictures of the british burning down the white house three hour on hour so that mvp it's time for editor's and the day. What's your pick my pick is. I hope i'm not stealing from anyone The latest andy mccarthy bucket of cold water a stunning passage from the latest court rejection of team trump Andy's been an since this Silly season launched after the election and He just points out in his piece. That under pressure from wisconsin to finally show some evidence of voter fraud or or make its claims in court. The trump team shriveled once again withdrew. any substantial immaterial charges of fraud and just went with the normal complaints about lawful elections and Anyway andy's just deserves to be commended. He is no shrinking. Violet is the exact opposite of squish and He's telling the hard truths charlie. What's your why are you laughing still just a basking glow that norwegian soccer recall that you found out about your mouth. I want to re- recommend that our listeners subscribe to kevin williamson's newsletter. The tuesday wednesday come on wednesday. And i should say that if you not can political persuasions either in his preferences on policy or on personnel. You'll still enjoy it. It's actually amazing. How many people say to me that they love listening Sorry they love reading the tuesday even if they don't agree with kevin. I think that's partly because there is politics in that. But there's also a long section on language think kevin's picking up the mantle. William safire set down and then at the end. There's a sundry section so you should subscribe to the day kevin's newsletter which comes out on tuesday. So one of the wonderful things work here at our is just saying the crop of young people. We have coming through as interns and solos of of various varieties and one of them is jimmy. Quinn who has a special interest in foreign policy middle east asian stuff and was lucky enough to go on a wide ranging trip with mike pompeo a couple weeks ago and has a terrific piece in of coming issue of the print magazine about this on pompeo's doctrine of conservative realism. Please check it out. And that's it for us. Urban listening to a national review podcast and your rebroadcast re transmission account. This game without the express written permission of nasseri magazine is strictly fro hypnotist. This podcast has been reduced by the incomparable. so shitty. Who makes us sound better than we deserve. Thank you charlie. Thank you michael. Thanks to black rifle and the american story. Thanks especially to all of you for listening. We are the editors and it's unbelievable. We've beaten england

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