153: Adam Grant | How to Know the Real You Better


Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan harbinger. As always I'm here with my producer, Jason Filipo, Adam grant, and I go back a long way, he's an organizational psychologist who studies how to make work not suck as he puts. It we grew up in the same area of Michigan and Adam has consistently broken the mold by outworking out producing an outshining. Almost everyone in our age group, which I think is great. He just he's written a bunch of books. He's like one of these all star professors, really great thinker of our time. And it's kinda cool that he was just like this youngest tenured professor ever at work business school kind of big deal. He was tenured at twenty eight instead of you know, like forty something that is incredible. And whenever I talked to Adam. I'm always impressed by his ability to take a freakonomics style. Look at the workplace and to do. So in a way that us gen-x slash millennial types can actually pay attention to and wrap our heads around today on the show why we probably don't know ourselves as well as we think we do. In fact, it's not just an absence. Of knowledge about ourselves. But there's a near certainty that we actually believe the things about ourselves that are patently false. Whether it's trying to land a job where Impresa date, we spend a staggering amount of time making claims about ourselves, and it makes sense, right? You're the only person on earth who has direct knowledge of every thought feeling an experience that you've ever had. So who could possibly know you better than you? Sometimes though that direct knowledge is what causes the problem. We're talking about here in the first place think of it like owning a car just because you've driven it for years doesn't mean you can pinpoint why and when the engine broke down, and that's kind of what we're gonna delve into here with Adam grant, we've got some drills and exercises for you to get better self awareness and help others do the same which I think is just a really interesting and a little bit of a scary way to do that. So I really enjoyed this episode the time flew by and if you want to know how I managed to keep people like Adam grant on speed dial and have this great network. It's all about systems. It's all about tiny habits actually just taught. Of this to some intelligence agencies, some espionage type, so even if you're already really good at networking, which a lot of you have been saying, you are there's going to be some stuff in here, unless you are already a clandestine service mix type, which you're not so check out our level. One course it's free over at Jordan. Harbinger dot com slash level one and get a nice taste of that. It's the stuff. I wish I had for the last fifteen years. All right. Here's Adam grant, shall we dive into this. I read the article the podcast is really interesting, and it so you only did like a handful of those is that kind of the the deal with that the basic thought was that I was going to think about each podcast episode is a mini book. And so we decided to season would just be it episodes and then to bonus. And so a rookie season two now and the. Part of a chance for me to you know, to really turn upside down the way my own work life works because I physically spent the last six years since I think you and I first connected getting invited into organizations to tell them mostly things. I already know. And I go to all these interesting places. I don't get to learn that much because they wanna they wanna hear like the greatest hits. And so the podcast was kind of a flip of that to say. All right. What if I invite myself in two places that are reinventing work and making it suck a little bit less and try to figure out what we can learn from them. So that was the that was the hook. And it's been super fun. I like the idea that you get to go to these places and really dive. In fact, I thought it was pretty interesting that you've got to sit in the writer's room on the daily show. I'm imagining a bunch of really funny quirky people somewhere like kinda history, some are really all and some look square, but those are like the real weird ones. And then Trevor Noah are sitting there, and they're like all right, everybody be really. Funny. What are your ideas and go and everyone's just ready with some hilarity? I mean, what's what's the reality of sitting in a room like that? Or is it not even a room anymore? These days that, you know, Jordan. That's not that far from from what I saw when I walked in. So it was a little surreal because I've I've watched the show since I think we were in college, right? Yeah. Where we and I remember going news. I'm not doing that. My friend was like trust me. You'll want to see this guy. Talk about funnies make fun of the news. And I thought well how disrespectful as that? And then dot dot dot my favorite show. Right. Exactly. I think I had a very similar experience. And I'd I'd watch Trevor stand up and thought he was hysterical and says I was excited to to get a taste of his show, and then or his version of the show. And so I reached out and said, look we wanna do a show about the making of your show. It's like a a Seinfeld Coughlin coffee table book about Covington. Right, right. Very. And they were surprising. Like, I don't know. I don't know. Exactly why. But they were surprisingly receptive. And they said, hey, you know, you're you're with Ted. You wanna do a work life episode? Shirley, come on in. And so I I literally just arrived at the writer's room one day, and it is tiny. It's like it's an undersized living room, essentially with a few couches their bagel sitting everywhere, and it is full of probably thirty mostly hipster looking people many of whom are in their twenties and thirties. It looks like a total melting pot covering every possible culture and hairstyle. Yeah. Would I walk in? They don't even notice that. I'm there. They're just riffing on on the the previous day's news. And every two or three minutes somebody'll hit play on a clip. And then it's like an immediate competition to see who can make the funniest one liner on on that particular clip. And then when they feel like they've run out of seeing they cycle through the next one, and and Trevor walks in and nobody even notices they just continue with the routine until he he finally calls the meeting to order, but it was it was kind of like watching. It was almost like watching a basketball team in warm ups where where they don't realize anyone's in the audience is pretty fun to see it in action. That's got to be a pretty fun. But also pretty stressful job because if you have an off day, and you're just not being funny. And you're sitting there all your colleagues and Trevor Noah are like expectantly looking at you deadpan with eyebrows raised in there. Like impressed me. And you're just like, yeah. Not feeling today. I had to go to the vet my stomach hurts a little and they're just like all right? You said that yesterday. So when are you going to be funny and earn money that we're pay? Saying you, and you're just like I'm getting fired from this job immediately. I was a little terrified because you know, I think probably took six or seven minutes from from the time. I walked in for somebody to make a really bad joke that no one laughed at at all just completely bombed. And I'm like, oh, no that person's life is over. Right. Trevor Trevor thinks they're an idiot. You don't get that much time to pitch in front of, you know, the top guy necessarily, and they actually just jumped on it and started making fun of it and treat is an opportunity to make more jokes. And I felt like it it actually it made it easier for the person who bombed to laugh at themselves because they were kind of laughing together knowing that they've all bombed at some point house. Like, you know, what we we need? We need to do that more. Yeah. Good point. How glad though were you at that point that that wasn't you? Right. Like, I'm glad I don't have this job that guy screwed. Oh. I think I mean, we've we've all had that moment moment right of kind of even just an a meeting pitching joke and having it fall flat as like, okay? That that's painful enough. But at least I can say that's not my job. I'm not supposed to be funny. That would have been a bonus if anybody left here, this is the definition of what they're supposed to be good at how can they just fall flat on their faces? But they seem to do it almost every hour. It's got to be a tough gig, and it sort of segues nicely into what we're going to discuss today because in order to get a job writing jokes writing comedy, by the way, I just want everyone to know, my dream is to have a team of people writing funny things for me to say, and then I get to say them on the show and everyone thinks I'm the funny one that that is a great place to be in your career. You really have to think at some point to be a comedy writer to be in that room to be an any position at all. Like that that you're funny. You have to think that you're funny. But people who think that they're funny generally are the people that are not funny at all. So you have to you have to have this balance. Right. Where you're like, I know that I'm kinda funny. But I'm not so funny that I'd go around telling people this, and yet here's my resume telling you how good I'm going to be in that writer's room. Right. How do you manage to slide in there? It's a hell of a paradox. I think that most of the people I met at the daily show they just been told over and over again that they were funny by other people or they just they noticed that when they made a joke. More people laugh when other people make jokes, and you know, at some point they realize all right? I'm pretty good at this. But once once they did that they started surrounding themselves with funnier people and a lot of them sort of moved in a slightly more professional direction. So they. Do stand up on the weekend. Or, you know, they'd start submitting applications to you know, to to write a column for newspaper, and as they do that they automatically catapult themselves into a world where people have much much higher standards and clear taste and so really quickly. It's like, okay. I was I was funny in my high school class, but not funny compared to Jerry Seinfeld or Allie Wong. So I got a lot of work to do. And I think that that feedback steam to help a lot of them calibrate. It it is it is funny though. Because I I remember in high school, actually, I had a friend who told me that I had no sense of humor. And you know, like like only someone who's a future psychologists could do. I was like, well, why explain it to me like what what's your logic? Like, what's your evidence back it up? And she said, well, you don't laugh at all my jokes. I'm like, I'm Uber. I'm the problem. Hush errol. Yeah. Exactly. So I do think that people have a really hard time judging how others are are supposed to respond to their humor. And to your point. I think that that goes to a larger question about has self-aware. Are we really, and that's what we're going to get that was a brilliant. We just landed that glide gliding that plane right down on the on the runway that was great. I learned a lot from you over the years, and I should be taking notes on this as well. I think that that was that was smooth. Usually we have to slam that transition in their little bit. But that was that was probably smooth is against your work in the area of self-awareness is a little bit scary. And that's the topic for today. Because I think it does come down to the fact that look I wanna believe I really wanna believe that. I not only know myself better than anyone else. But the knowledge I have about myself is actually the most important information about myself that exists, and I know that's that's kind of confusing, but it's sort of a two prong thing here for if you're listening, and you're confused what I'm saying is people think they know themselves really, well, and that is only true in certain areas, except the problem is those areas in which, you know, yourself not that big of a deal for the rest of us like not really good a make or break your career etcetera. Am I close? Yeah. Actually, I I think you nailed it. So jordan. I do have some good news for you right there. There are some things, you know, about yourself that other people don't know, and that are probably useful to know. So if you take an internal state like anxiety, for example, you are away better judge of your own anxiety levels in how neurotic you are than other people because nobody knows what's going on inside your head, and you might be really neurotic on the inside. But very good at putting on sort of a cool front on the outside or the opposite. You might come across as really anxious, but you're actually pretty chill internally. And so I think to to really understand any emotions that you're experiencing any particular patterns of of thinking or feeling you are the best gauge on that the problem is most of your success in life depends on how other people perceive you and sometimes we are atrocious at gauging that. Yeah, that seems like it could be a big problem. I mean, it's kind of a waste of time for me to know. All this stuff about myself and. Then have it all be largely irrelevant to how I work. How I relate to other people. It seems a little bit. Unfair is not a great word for it. Because that's that's how things are. I mean, it's just a statement of facts, but it doesn't really seem to be a pattern that we can easily break and not only that if we're supposed to develop self awareness. And we know a lot of workplaces grade you based on self-awareness, which is probably a good thing. It sounds like we should be focusing more on this. And yet all of these personality tests, some things that we take Myers Briggs. It's like, hey, what about your really just evaluating yourself? And then you get this acronym, or I guess at the end, and it's supposed to define you. And yet it's all based on my own perception of my own data about myself. It seems like wow, talk about a recipe for disaster. Yeah. It I think it's scary. And I guess a few years ago, I publicly broke up with the Myers, Briggs. Because I was so appalled. At the the ratings are done. And the lack of updating of science that went into that which whole nother conversation. But I think the some of this. We know immediately, right. You'd never judge somebody's intelligence by asking them. How smart they are like you'd actually watch them use their intelligence knowing that they're probably going to be pretty motivated to think that they're bright. And that, you know, watching themselves problems or answer trivia questions or try to figure out a complex complex task would be a better way to go. But I think we we overlook the fact that this is true across a whole range of domains. If you think about job performance, for example, the best personality predictor of performance in most jobs in the US and actually in most industrialized countries is conscientiousness are you disciplined hard-working organized, dependable or you more spontaneous carefree, and it's not it's not hard to figure out that you know, conscientious people tend to set higher goals, they tend to be more persistent in. In a cheating. Those goals, they they work harder. They also work smarter. Because when something doesn't work they they don't give up they look for new ways of solving problems. And so you people are aware of that. And they're pretty motivated to see themselves as conscientious than the problem is they have access to everything they've ever done and so short, and if you want to see yourself as really conscientious, it's pretty easy for you to search your memory for nine situations where you are super organized and top non top stuff. And what you don't have is the comparison of your best nine against everybody else's best nine, and so you can overestimate how much you really have your your act together. That's a good point. I never I hadn't even thought about the idea that someone could say, well, how nice are you? And I skip over all of the asshole array of the last twenty nine days, and I I go to the head of bed twenty nine minutes. Right. Then I go to the thirtieth day. And I'm like, well, I did pick up that dollar that that lady dropped and say, hey, you dropped this. And she was like, thanks. So I'm a pretty good person. Right. And that's the memory that I'm going to latch onto because it's desirable. And because nobody wants to be like. Yeah. Well, there's all these times where I've done really horrible things. And that's what I want other people to know about me. And that's what I want to believe about myself. We're just gonna filter that. But the problem, I would imagine this is unconscious, right? This is happening to us in a way that that is riddled with cognitive bias constantly, and yeah, I mean, it's it's it's actually pretty fun to watch people. Do it right. Because it's almost like they've they've they've told their life story just by writing their own Wikipedia page, and there's no editor kind of going through to figure out. Okay. Well, wait a minute. What else have you done? And is that really true? I think that one of the places this plays out is there's a classic study psychology of married couples where they're put in separate rooms. And they're asked to estimate of the total work that goes into their relationship. How much they personally responsible for? And so each each person gives a percentage and three out of four couples add up to over one hundred percent. So somebody's lying, and it turns out that some of that is ego. Right. We we all wanna think that we're we're doing most of the work in our in our relationships, but more of it is just information discrepancy, right? You, you know, every act that you've ever done to contribute to your relationship. Right. You were there when you cook dinner, and when you plan to vacation, and when you walk the dog, and by definition, you weren't there when your partner did all those things, and so on average, I think people are able to come up with eleven of their own contributions and only eight of their partners. So I think one of the ways we can become more self aware is actually learn more about what other people are up to. On the same dimensions that we're trying to judge ourselves. So that's that's interesting. It's not just a matter a simple matter of cognitive bias. Right. It's a information a symmetry and exactly that makes a lot more sense because I'm thinking to my own relationship. And there's no way I would put anything over us. I would never be like, I'm doing at least half the work. I I know damn well, my wife is doing a lot more work in the relationship. And we've also talked about this one day. This is not the same thing. But the other day, she asked me something like what percentage of the housework? Do you think you do? And I was like like five percent. And she goes, oh, I'm so glad to hear you say that. And I said, yeah, why. And she's like, well, you know, she's talking to her friends and all these husbands out there, and you don't have to admit guilt atom. But all these husbands out there are like, yeah. I do like forty to sixty percent some days, and it's like not even close. Yeah. Not even close. And I would imagine this gets mirrored in how much work goes into the relationship because we're thinking like, well, you know, I come home and I say Hello to her. And I buy stuff on the way back from the office. And it's like, yeah. That's not even close to what your wife did all day us weren't around. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's that's that's exactly the trap that a lot of people run into you. And it's I mean, I think it's a fundamental challenge. We have anytime we try to gauge generosity or contribution to others and. Jordan the question. Your wife asked is sort of you can't win either. You're gonna get in trouble for overestimating it or you got a lot of work to do now. Well, I kind of I kind of went this way, by the way, if anybody's worried about this walking into that trap. Yeah. What happened was I said about five percent. And I said, but I hope you don't feel like I'm not contributing because what I'm doing is working on the business earning revenue so that we can pay for things etcetera. That's where I look at my contribution. Let me know if I need to do more. She's like, no, I'd rather you just don't try to like get in the middle of all these other things that I'm doing, you know, because it is the problem with this. My dad tried to do housework like once or twice when I was a kid, and my mom was like just stop. You're just making everything worse. Like, I've I've been in that position. It's so after after reading a lot of this research on on how out of balance things are between, husbands, and wives. I I came home. And I told my wife, I was feeling really guilty that I wasn't doing enough at home. And she's like first of all like do not. The kitchen like you. You can't even make spaghetti without it being really crunchy. And I'm freighter going to set the place on fire. But Secondly, I would love more help. And I we then had this conversation. It sounds like similar to yours about. Okay. What are the things that that I could actually be stepping up in contributing in that you don't enjoy doing or you feel like I'm good at and did you come up with a balance or where she like just stay away from everything and go back to your office, though. I got I got permanent garbage duty. So that was not landed on my plate, and it's not bad. I've actually found I like I like taking out the garbage because it's the perfect time to listen to podcasts. It's also oddly satisfying for me, it really is. It's like I'm getting rid of all the stuff where I'm not alone. Yeah. Then weird. That's so weird. I so what do you find satisfying about it? You know, what it is? It's like you open up this bedroom garbage can that you've kind of been over stuffing for two weeks. 'cause you're like, I gotta take this out. But it's four o'clock in the morning, and you just wanted to blow your nose. You're not doing it then. And then, you know, some are like take this thing out or or your take out like all this heavy sort of food garbage. And there's this area where now where you would have normally had to push down on a garbage can full of stuff. It's empty you can just drop it in leisurely. There's I don't know. I must have some sort of some sort of there's a deeper complex here. Probably. But I find it's like cleaning things up and making them orderly except for you're actually getting rid of something that has object. Wli not supposed to be in the house anymore as opposed to making things perpendicular and parallel on a desk that you're gonna mess up in five minutes. Yeah. You know? It's it's funny. Because as a who you say that I think that I wonder I wonder how much of this is unique to the fact that neither neither you you. Definitely. And I also don't we don't have a job where we create much. That's tangible. Right, right. Okay. You're you're gonna put out some ideas or some conversations, and they're never really done, and you don't ever get to to kind of ship them off and feel like I created something today. And so I feel like when I take out the garbage like I've actually accomplished something that I can see in front of me, right? Which is which is very satisfying in a Marie condo sort of way. It's also a little sad that that's like the one tangible thing where we sort of brush our hands off go wash with their Myers cleaned a hand soap that literally everyone in America seems to have now and then dry our hands. And we're like, oh, that's a job. Well done like, I'm imagining people who do. Due woodworking or are working on a car in a garage. They wipe the grease off their hand in. They're like, yeah. That's a beauty. I never will have that experience with garbage, especially. No, no. That's that's true. Although I do occasionally stack the cardboard boxes in a pattern also satisfying. Yeah. Now, we just have some sort of weird complex that. We we grew up in the same area for those of you listening. We grew up basically in the same town. There's probably some weird stuff in the water. We aren't that far from Flint now that I think about it. It's true. And not only that but you were college remits with one of my good high school friends. That's right. That's right. I feel like surge might have put something in your water. It's very possible. Yes. Some sort of Russian spice that. Check after colonizing our brains. Yeah. Exactly. You're listening to the Jordan harbinger show with our guest Adam grant, we'll be right back after this. This episode is sponsored in part by ZipRecruiter. You know, it's not smart job boards that send you candidates that aren't qualified for the role you actually posted job boards. It send you a mile high stack of resumes to sort through. There's a lot about this. That will drive you crazy. But you know, it is smart going to ZipRecruiter dot com slash Jordan to hire the right person. Unlike other job sites, ZipRecruiter will find qualified candidates for you. It's got matching technology. It'll scan thousands of resumes identify people with, you know, actual skills education. Experience the things that you might want somebody that you're hiring, and it will actively invite them to apply to your job. 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You just heard visit Jordan, harbinger dot com slash deals. If you like some tips on how to subscribe to the show, just go to Jordan, harbinger dot com slash subscribe. Now back to our show with Adam grant. All right. So back to self-awareness in which you just everyone just got a glimpse of are kind of over overly self-aware selves here. Just a minute ago. You mentioned in some of your work that and there's a great article on this in the Atlantic. That will Lincoln the shuts people's co workers, colleagues, etc. Are better than they are at recognizing. How their personality will affect their job performance. In other words, people we work with are much better at evaluating us than we could possibly be. This sounds a little terrifying. Because I feel vulnerable knowing that. Well, I I don't think it says. Well, as as it sounds because here, your coworkers. Do get to see your you do your job every day. And so, you know, if you think about it for a minute, Jordan, if I were to give you a conscientiousness scale, and, you know, have you fill out a bunch of items about, you know, do do you always finish the things you start? Are you a reliable person? Do you? Do you feel like you? You are you're good at keeping yourself organized on schedule. I can take your ratings and then ask your co workers to fill the same scale out about you. And then your coworkers ratings might be twice as powerful as yours in predicting your performance, and if I do that in reverse, and I have your coworkers fill that out the ratings you give yourself at nothing. And so whatever, you know, about yourself at your co workers don't is either wrong or sort of irrelevant to your performance. Wow. That's that's bizarre. So they can see things that we either can't see probably a little bit of what we won't see or refused to see. And all the information that we know about ourselves doesn't really affect her job. So okay. That means that in some way are blind spots is humans have to be somewhat predictable. And this is you know, your area of research. Right. You've got to have seen this. If if we really can't evaluate these things about ourselves, and our colleagues and co workers can there must be those must be the same areas or similar areas for pretty much. Everyone is at the case. Yeah, it seems to be so the the areas that we we have the biggest blind spots in are the areas that are evaluative wherever you really care about looking good or we know the difference between positive and negative like generosity or something like that which would trigger acidy intelligence creativity. Anything that's desirable or virtuous. And then also that are highly observable, so. So much more something like assertiveness, which everyone can witness as opposed to more of the internal anxiety that we talked about earlier. Okay. All right. And why is this important? The fact that other people can see us more clearly than weekend. What what what should we take away from that? Well, I think I think you captured it really nicely that there are things that we can't see because we're stuck inside our own heads. And then, you know, it's kind of like, well, if you go back to the if you go back to Aristotle's era, astronomers being totally convinced that the sun revolved around the earth. You would really easily be able to see that if you weren't on the planet earth because he would see earthmoving, right? But the the fact that you're on it makes it really hard. And I think that that's the same thing is true about the mind. The the the very fact that you live inside your own head makes it really hard to see what other people can from outside. And then the other part, you know, that's the that's the observable part. Then the evaluative part is they're just things that you do not wanna see about yourself that are uncomfortable to admit that are blows to your ego. And so what one of the things I I had a lot of fun doing in the first season of work. Life was going into workplaces that tried to fix that. And say, hey, you know, what we're not gonna let you keep those blind spots. We're going to hold up a mirror and let you see yourself as other people. See you in the hopes that that will help you get better at your job or maybe turn you into a less. Terrible person. Yikes. That's got to be tough. Because of course, it's really easy for me to look at what I would evaluate myself. Right. I'm looking in my own head. And I'm like, okay what? But then the question is what am I ready to admit to other people because I'm not just going to spill everything that I find in there. Right. Even if I get rid of my bias and see things even remotely clearly which you have sort of shown that we can't even if I do find something I'm not going to be like, hey, everybody. Guess what I found out? I'm really not that emotionally stable go figure. Right. That's not. I'm not doing that. Well, I actually think you might. But most people what maybe I would. Yeah. For purposes of this show only for science. No, I think you know, there's. I never I've never known what to do with this. But there's there's a psychologist Bill Swann who has argued for decades that against this backdrop of us thinking that we all just want to see ourselves, positively bills. Bill said, yeah. But we also have this motive to be seen accurately. We we don't just go around trying to impress other people. We also try to express ourselves, and we kind of want to align. The ways that we really are with how other people see us. So that we're not constantly disappointing them. And so so that we feel like we're understood, and I I would guess Jordan from you know, from the times we chatted over the years that you probably score a pretty high on his self verification scale where you are willing to trade off a little bit of being seen positively for being seen accurately. Yeah. I've in this might not be the exact same thing. But I am very much, okay. With having people trust me more than they like me in certain business situations, especially and that's been cultivated over over time, though, you know, of course, I spent most of my young life really trying to get people to to like me more at as every kid does. And then it just got kind of horrible. As an adult is a is not a great way to exist and doesn't. Work with dating it doesn't work with friendships. It doesn't work at in the workplace, and then I realized starting my own business. It's actually more important for people to be like, look, I know that Jordan's gonna do what he says he's going to do I'm going to get what I paid for etc. Versus having people be like know. He's just a really nice person. I like being around him there. It's great to have both. But if I had to choose one, I think trust is probably a little better because I, you know, and this is just a theory. This is something that I've thought about a little bit here. It's better to do business with people that you trust. I'd rather do business with people that I trust but don't necessarily like than people that I like but don't necessarily trust. I think that's so critical and unusual. It's it's actually it's a theme that jumped out when I did an episode with a crew of NASA, astronauts who who had to trust people. They didn't like. Oh, yeah. So imagine that you are you're coming out of the US navy, and you've gotten picked to live your lifelong dream and fly into space, and you were told that when you're crewmates is going to be a Russian Cosma cosmonaut who when you were in the navy was your enemy, and you are going to fight the Cold War against him. And now, you gotta fly with the guy, and he's not particularly friendly, and he's kinda nasty about, you know, whether you're any good at your job and clearly thinks that he's superior, and you probably don't enjoy interacting with that guy very much. But you're life depends on being able to trust them. And know that he's competent and also that he believes your competent. And I think it's really hard for people to get past that right to say, hey, I wanna I wanna put my life in the hands of of somebody that I don't even enjoy interacting with. And I thought it would that something that more people ought to learn how to do. So how did you? How did you get to that point who good question? I think probably it comes down to the one thing that's coming readily to mind here is little decisions. So if I have the ability to say to somebody, hey, you know, the reason that you're not getting this speaking slot. For example, is because you're actually not as dynamic of speaker as the other people that got shows around you. I could have I could say that. Right. And I probably would. But the other thing I could do is go, but I really want Jim delight me. And so I'm not going to tell him that he's not as dynamic of a speaker. And that he should improve that I'm going to say, you know, that whole event is kind of just a popularity contest. It's kind of just a boys club. You're never gonna get that. I I should've told you before. But I thought maybe they change their ways. But they haven't same old crap. You're great don't let them get you down. You know, and that would have made that person feel better. And be like Jordan's got my back. He's on my side. I like him. But I think I was able to achieve that by saying, look, you're not as dynamic of a speaker. You should Email this guy and take some lessons, and it will really go far. You're not really what they're looking for right now at this type of event, but don't feel bad. You just don't have enough reps under your belt, it doesn't necessarily make that person. Like me. It doesn't have to make them dislike me, but they sure like me less than if I stroke their ego, and or protected their ego. It's just that I was able to give them feedback that they could use instead. And so I have to make those decisions in real time. As those situations arrive, kind of just take note of when I'm I have the ability to give somebody real feedback, for example, or blow sunshine up their skirt. It's a lot easier for me to just to now make. That decision knowing that it's the long game that matters for me. And that that is exactly what Ray Delio tries to Bridgewater. In saying, look, you've got to be willing to cause people a little emotional pain in order to help them improve. And the reality is that the most of us are afraid to do that. We don't want to hurt people's feelings. Even if in the long run it's going to help them. And I think that's a that's a disservice to other people, especially when you're dealing with things like financial markets, or well any business actually, it seems like a great idea. I would imagine in that workplace though, there's a lot of you really have to get down to people's motivations. Because when I hear about what happens at Bridgewater, which is everybody gives each other feedback. That's pretty brutal. And you could even give it to Ray. I guess if you feel the need to do that a home is there's gotta be a little bit of like, well, you know, I got feedback from Adam. But then I also think that Adams secretly mad at me for this other thing, so I'm going to discount that feedback or or thanks for the feedback atom. And then you're thinking like I'm going to give you feedback now. And then when you get that, you're like is Jordan just. At at me for the feedback. I gave him before like, how do you get rid of the idea that maybe they're motivated by something else other than just giving you realistic feedback? Maybe they're mad at you for your feedback. How do they mitigate that? Right. How do they control for that? So I I've spent a couple of years studying Bridgewater and doing some work with them. And actually, I was I was on a call yesterday where I was I was quoting a study and -rageous interrupted and said bullshit. Wow. Like at first. I was like, whoa. That's harsh. Like, I I I'm a social scientist. I, you know, I I have pretty high standards for what counts as rigorous research. I'm pretty sure this study is not bullshit. And then and then the next thought I had was all right. I finally reached a point where he's brutally honest with me. And isn't pulling any punches? That's that's great. That's that's what I need in my life, especially from somebody who's who's gone to the extreme on a scale like giving and receiving feedback. So he he has a bunch of systems in place that have really been designed to solve the problem, you're describing so I think in a lot of workplaces. You're right that you know, I I might give you negative feedback. Because I mad at how you for rating meeting negatively, or, you know, I'm I'm trying to get ahead in some way. And you're a threat to that. At bridgewater. One of the things they do is. You get rated on about seventy seven different dimensions of performance in real time. So you're in a meeting right now. And I could be rating you on, you know, whether you're demonstrating higher level thinking or getting stuck in the weeds. I could be rating you on whether you're standing for for truth and fighting for right as opposed to being a little bit political. And you then raped me on being, you know, being being distracted when I'm busy writing you. But the the aggregate all these ratings that are done in real time. And then what you're given is a believability score, which is a score in each domain for how accurate your feedback has been in the past because we have everybody doing the ratings. And so with that means is I might be given a high believability score on feedback about your personality, but a loaf believability score on my predictions about markets. And so then you would know whether in general, you should trust my feedback in that domain, and there's a. A very strong disincentive for me to then game a few back system because I'm gonna kill my believability score. If I if I if I give you feedback that I think is not accurate in a domain where I've proven accurate. Oh, wow. So we want to build up our credibility, which is great. Because of course, I think we want it we touched on this earlier. We wanna convince everyone including ourselves that were smart, creative and intelligent. And if we're just sort of trying to game the system in that way, or when we give other people feedback than we lose on this other metric, which is actually arguably more important having discussed the whole trust versus like ability thing in the first place. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. And I think one of the things that that I was surprised to see happen. When I when I watched this play at Bridgewater is I kind of expected that people would always be second guessing the motives, right and trying to say, okay. When somebody tells me, I had one of the one of the craziest things that I saw happen. There was was a guy named Karen walked into meeting, and it the a slide came up ranking managers at Bridgewater, and he was ranked dead last in a room of several hundred managers dang at like oh God. He didn't even get stabbed in the back. You just got punched in the face. Burn of all his colleagues. And they're the ones punching them. And would I would I would feel inclined to do in that situation. Is you start thinking about all the reasons why people might be biased against me, and that didn't even cross his mind because they have all bought into a system and opted in where they agree that they're gonna listen to critical feedback because they want to help each other get better. And so you build up this experience over time of knowing that if people rate you negatively, even though we all tend to feel uncomfortable about doing that. Then, you know, odds are they're probably trying to to give you accurate feedback and hold up that mirror and help you get better that is a brilliant way to try to mitigate cognitive bias. Because that would be my first thought everyone's biased against me. Or maybe I'm biased against I've got some other bias. And by the way, you would know this is there a bias whereby. I think I'm less biased because I think I have that bias. Yeah. This is this is Emily Pronin work on what's called the bias blind spot, which I've always thought of is the the I'm not biased bias. Yeah. So people actually think that they are more objective than than other people are, which of course, is ridiculous. Yeah. That makes sense and the more objective. I think I think a lot of people who don't realize they're vulnerable to bias the more vulnerable. They might actually be because since we all have that the fact that they don't see that. Or we don't see that means that maybe it affects us even more strongly than any than other people. Yeah. I mean, it's it's terrible. Actually because the more convinced you are that your objective, the less work you do to try to to catch and check your own biases. And so the more unbiased, you think you are the more bias that makes you know, my gosh, that's such a mess. Watch out. Yeah. So in what areas do we need to have other people hold a mirror up for us? And then how do we do that? Who do we choose to do this? Because if if I ask my wife, hey, I need a realistic assessment of myself. She's still not gonna do that. She has to first of all she has to rationalize the fact that she married me in the first place. Right. She's not going to be like, here's all the stuff. That's wrong with you without running into a cognitive dissonance of her own. She's like, wait. I'm married you, Dan. What was I doing right? Yeah. Although, you know, what there's there's some marine homes work showing that that high expectations of your partner can become self offending prophecies. And that you know, if your wife has an ideal of you of who you are that you become more motivated to try to become that person. And so maybe maybe her best option is to say, hey, Jordan like on your best day. Here's who I think you are. And here all the times, you fall in Georgia that let's close the gap. Yeah. Which maybe allows her to maintain her positive you of you. But also motivate you to to make some improvements. But I think you're right. I didn't get at a basic level. It's often it's often hard for people to know what to give you feedback on. And then you have to gauge okay? How honest are they being and where they relevant. I think the the place to start though is with specific skills. So you know, other people tend to be pretty good if they're knowledgeable in domain, and and you're you're new to it or you've gotten inconsistent feedback in it. They tend to be pretty good at giving you feedback, especially if you aggregate a bunch of people to give feedback and so there's there's actually an exercise that I tried out after after seeing it in action at at Bain the management consulting firm. So they they have a version of a an owner's manual or user manual like, you know, when you get a new car, it comes with a manual to tell you how to operate it. Yeah. I've never even cracked that thing in any kind of ever had in my whole life. So you're. So you're less. You're clearly less clueless than I am then because I've I've been I've actually not I think I'd probably read parts of everyone because I couldn't figure out how to work pretty much every car o. I. Yeah. So my dad worked for Ford. So I if I was like, hey, there's a little light. This is OT off. What is that? He's like, oh, you hit the overdrive. Switch on the gear Shifter. You should just hit that little button that you probably never knew was there. And I'm like, oh, okay. So I guess I sort of lived with a manual for a car. Clearly. Yeah. I I'm I'm mechanically completely incompetent so match. The those those manuals are useful to some of us, right, especially if you think about any piece of technology that you're not good at a DVD player a phone, a laptop some new product that you've never tried out before the user manual is supposed to be helpful. And what I think is interesting is that the human mind is way more complex than anything. We buy no matter how technologically sophisticated is. And there's no owners meant. And I think we need our own owners manuals, but we also need to give them to the people we work with. And so what what this manager had done. It Bain was he he was going to write a user manual for new employees to say, look, here's what I'm good at. Here's where I struggle. Here's what brings out the best in me in the worst in me. So that they could get to know him faster. And then he was like, wait. Why would I do this? I I don't know all that stuff. The people who've worked with me know, all that stuff. And so he he challenged his team. And he said I want you each to write a draft of what's all the stuff. You know about me now that you wish you had known in your first week of us working together. And he had the team put that together. And then yeah, they they they they had a rough draft. And they they've compared notes on which things important and less important. And then it ended up getting turned into a one page document that is given to every new person who works for him. And I thought that was a great idea. And so I reached out. A few people who work with me. And I asked them to to write out a just a draft of the user manual for me. And I only predicted I made a list of what I thought it was was going to be in it. I I could test myself awareness only predicted about a third of it. Oh, wow. Wow. So you try to write an instruction manual for yourself. Yeah. Yeah. So I I knew I would be told for example that I was constantly late. And that if you know, if you wanna work well with me one, you need to you need to be aware of that that I I have a chronic inability to disengage from the current task until it's done, and then to if there's something really important, you either need to stress the importance of timeliness for that activity for me or you need to lie to me about when it starts. So that was predictable. I knew that was going to go in there. And I I wrote it almost verbatim matching what one of my colleagues. Did there are whole bunch of other things that I just did not end -ticipant at all. So okay. We create an instruction manual ourselves. And I'll talk about how we do that in a second because I'm very curious about that. But then you didn't really it's not just as simple as you sitting down and going. Okay. I know these things about the way I operate, let me notify you. There were things in there that you didn't know, right. Yeah. Quite a bit. I was like, oh, this is this is either really uncomfortable or a great learning experience. And I'm gonna try to turn it into the learning part. Yeah. Probably a little bit of both. Because I would imagine the people you work with closely guys. Like, Jason my wife, Jen the rest of my team here. They've got a vested interest in making me better at everything or an indefinitely invested interest in making me less difficult in other things that we do together. But the problem is in gen knows this Jason knows this the challenges. Of course, if there's something that I need to hear. But they know I don't wanna hear it. They're probably not going to jump over themselves to deliver bad news. And then get me kinda riled up. Yeah. Because that's only gonna make their lives more difficult. Right. Yeah. And I mean, I try to be aware of this and not shoot the messenger. Because the last thing you want to do is train your spouse, and your producer in people, you work with really closely to be like, hey, if you have. Problem with Jordan definitely don't tell him because he's going to make your life a living. Hell is that just bottle it up until you find a better job? That's not who you want around. You right know. So Jason we should talk off light. I've got some ideas for you. Yeah. How do we get that more accurate picture of ourselves? Then from our co workers and colleagues I mean, I assume we need to be working closely with them, but the weekly Skype resume meetings, not gonna cut it for most people know, I think one of the things I've learned from from a couple of liters I've worked with is. I heard I heard a version this story from I think three different leaders was they felt like as they got more senior or more influential people stopped giving them the candid feedback they used to get. And you know, I they would just ask for it. And nobody told them anything. And eventually they said all right. You know what I've got to. I have to really go out on a limb here to try to make it safe for them to speak up and one of the things a bunch of them. Did was they said all right? I'm going to give feedback on myself out loud. And I so I I ended up trying this to get my own team to write my user manual. I said alright here a couple of things I think I'm really bad at. And then okay, which which of these do you agree and disagree with? And what am I missing what am I blind spots? And once I put the blind spot question in there. The it was like the floodgates just opened it was like, well, sometimes you crush people with your with your negative feedback in on an idea that was the point. I heard multiple times. I was like what I'm I feel like I'm encouraging. You don't do that. Oh, wait. No. That's a terrible idea. And I think what what I didn't realize was I was just trying to be efficient. I thought okay. I've got I've got a meeting with with nine people on my team, you know. And I think part of my job is to to quickly that which is our new and rigorous. And so, you know, if something didn't didn't meet that bar, it'd be like, Nope. That's probably not gonna work. Let's move onto the next one. And you know, I I'm just like, yeah. You can say that to me too. And what I was totally unaware of is there's a little status hierarchy there and people are feeling really discouraged and demotivated motivated by that. And so that was a kind of a big wake up call for me on making sure that people recognize that I see potential in their ideas. How do we put ourselves then in situations where maybe we can't ignore feedback from multiple sources short of do we need to have like an intervention kind of situation where it's like, hey, roast me, you know, I don't I don't really know how this would look in practice. This. No, I think I actually think most of it is about just making it easier for people to tell you the truth. So I mean, I'll give you some some things that I've I've been doing that that I found helpful that, you know, in some cases, come out of the research, in some cases, are just ideas that occurred to me when I was I was grappling with this. One thing. I do is every talk that I give after I get off stage. I ask what's the one thing that I could do better. And it's such a simple thing and totally non threatening for people to answer it because who couldn't do at least one thing better. And in some cases, get immediate suggestions. In other cases. I find out that they actually do an audience survey that they never bothered to share with their speaker before. And now I've got a whole bunch of data points to learn from. And then when I do is once I collect that feedback I loop it back with my team and say, look, you know, I got this feedback. What do you think of it? And that puts them in a position to hold me accountable for for making changes. Well, okay. That's that's that seems like. Idea. Is there something we can do look let's say we're not the boss. Let's say we just want to get some great feedback from those around us. I know you've got this reflected best self exercise. Would you take us through this? Oh, yeah. This is this is one of my favorite exercises and not just because it comes from wolverine territory. So I was I was first introduced to this. When I started grad school at Michigan bunch of my colleagues and advisors at the time had noticed that not only are people often uncomfortable giving negative feedback. But sometimes they're uncomfortable giving positive feedback. They they feel like well, actually a bunch of reasons. So I might I might be hesitant to compliment you because I think it's gonna be awkward or because I'm afraid that you'll you'll just think that I'm trying to to Brown nose or or kiss up in some way. So I don't do it. And then you miss out on some some helpful information about what you're good at or, you know, something that at least would energize you a little bit because it's. It's nice to hear when you have a strength. So the reflective bestself is an exercise that's designed to to counteract those problems. And what you're what you're asked to do. I I've had students do this for a decade. I've had senior executives do it military generals. People find it really informative and pretty uplifting. What you do is you reach out to fifteen to twenty people who know you. Well, and it's up to you who those people are. So they might be colleagues. They might be friends family members. And then you ask them all to tell a story about you. When you're at your best, and it doesn't have to be long. So just a paragraph about a time when when you really were great or excelled at something. And you you get these stories coming in and pretty soon seventeen people have told you about a time when when you were able to you know, to to shine in some way, and the first thing is people are surprised because sometimes they don't even remember the stories they hear and they're like what I did that pr-. Sure, you're talking about someone else. I have no recollection of that. That's true. At all. Then there's another layer of surprise, which is often strengths are highlighted that people. Don't know they have and that. Yeah. That goes back to the blind spot issue. We don't just have blind spots about weaknesses. We have blind spots about strengths to. There are things. We just do instinctively that we have a talent for or that we approach in a creative way. And we don't even think twice about it. And so people people come out realizing, hey, they're a couple things. I'm good at that. I'm not I'm not using those strengths as often as I could and your job. Then once you collect all those stories. This is the part that involves some work is you create a portrait you analyze the common themes, and you say, look, you know, these are my three strengths that stand up most around when I'm at my best through the eyes of the people I trust. And here the situations where I've seen to be good at using them. And here are some ideas on where I might be able to use them that I'm not already, and I I recommend it to anybody who who. Has a I guess who has a human brain. Yeah. That seems useful. And we'll put this in the worksheets as we do with all practical exercises from the show this reflected bestself exercise, which is from wolverine territory. That's the university of Michigan. Not the marvel comic book for those of you wondering what the hell we talking about there. I like the idea of getting fifteen to twenty people that I know well to to tell a story about a time when I was at my best what happens when they go. I don't know. Can you give me an example? Should we feed them some kind of example, or is that just going to screw up the whole thing in skew the results, you know? You know? I don't know. I think that's actually a good empirical question. So I'd I'd wanna see the data. You can run the experiment where some people are given examples and others aren't I've seen it done both ways. I think I think sometimes a little bit of direction is helpful. So if if you want to offer an example or two that's fine. But if you just Google the reflected bestself, it's pretty clear from the instructions to most people are like, oh, I just have to think about a time when you were really outstanding. I can do that. And then I'll write what you did. And how it mattered? So I think I don't think the examples are necessary. But I think it's it's possible. They could be helpful. And this is something for its context dependent. Right. Because I guess a close friend of mine might be like, you know, one thing that was great was when we were at that fast food place, and there was that old lady, and she couldn't find her wallet. And you just paid for her food that was really cool that said something about you. Whereas somebody who works with me might be like remember that time that something broke, and you stayed up all night with us to help fix it. That was pretty cool made us all feel. Like a team. It's going to be different. I would imagine for each person given context that you work with them or that they have with you. Right. It is. Although I actually liked to see people do it across different contexts because two things can happen one. Is you you start to see consistencies and you say all right? I'm not a totally different person. With with my colleagues as I am with a good friend like Jordan in in your two stories, even though they sound really different. What I hear is a common thread that you like to be the hero or that. You know in crisis are under pressure and earn a difficult situation. You step up in those two made up examples. That is correct. Totally totally. But you know, what examples did you make up wonder if that says something about your psyche? Who knows probably so there's you know, I think it is helpful for people to realize, hey, you know, I went I went to a co worker, and I went to a friend and they've never met and they've seen me totally different situations. And they hit on one of the same strengths. That must be you know, that that must have happened because it's pretty represents. Give of what I'm good at. And then the other part is when the opposite happens when, you know, something that you feel you're very strong at in one domain, you realize that none of the stories in another domain highlight that and you're like, you know, what that generosity I show with my family. I could probably show more of it worker or vice versa. That's in now. That's really fascinating. This is really awesome. So going to annoy my friends and family with this immediately. Jason you're getting should ask ASAP. You're welcome. Yeah. Like, this could yield some really interesting results. Wow. Wow. And I like that it's for when you're at your best because if you did it, and you're like give me feedback on high could become better. I feel like you could easily get really overwhelmed with all these things that you need to improve and all these different areas of her life. Although that might also be useful. So we were assigned to do this. When I when I took a class that was you know, trying to help us with our own personal development. And if I was like, this is interesting. In the my second thought was well, I wonder this. This is kind of it's only one side of the coin. What happens if I get a reflected were self at people to tell a story about a time when I was horrible. And then look at the themes in those stories, it was way harder to your point earlier to get people to tell me those stories, but actually learned a lot from it. Yes. So did you really just invert the exercise, and what kind of what kind of stuff comes up, then reflected worst self? I did I found that a lot of my my worst moments were stories about times when I was distracted. And I it was like I'd be back to back in meetings. And then, you know, checking Email and really not engaging with people which ironically, we're supposed to be one of my strengths. When when people when people had my attention, they had my full attention. And then I guess when when they didn't they really didn't get any of it. And so I took that and said, okay, I'm going to I'm going to start carving out time between meetings to make sure I have a moment to to check my Email, or you know, my voicemail, and that way, I I'll feel like I'm not missing something important. I also what else did I get? Oh. I got feedback that that I was essentially I'm trying to remember the way it was articulated. It was pretty funny. The gist of it was that I was so nervous that I was causing other people to shake in their seats. When I got on stage physically. Wow. That so you are so tangibly anxious. Other people started Mirroring, you're nonverbal communication, essentially instinctually and everyone felt awkward or nervous about it. That is that really. Yikes. That's up you definitely wanna fix. But. Yeah. That must have been hard to here. Yeah. Especially as somebody who's about to become a professor, and you know, one day give TED talks. I was like my executives contagious. This is not a good thing. Like, it was it was it was the fuel. I needed to go and start working with a with a speaking and teaching coach. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Because you think like, oh, I'm I'm anxious. Of course is because the one thing we learned earlier in this episode was that we're really good at evaluating that kind of thing for ourselves. But, hey, at least I'm covering it up. Well, and nobody can tell oh, I thought I really I I mean, I guess I was just so anxious that what I was doing to cover it up only scratched the surface. But yeah, I knew I knew I was anxious. I did not know I had telekinesis, and I could transfer my exciting across the room. Wow. Bravo that so I was really excited to do this reflected bestself until we started talking about the reflected worst self which seems like you probably have to do both. And now, I'm kind of dreading that one. Well, I think there's there's actually a work around. So I'll say the the evidence suggests that the reflected bestself, we we do know that it can help with development by allowing people to recognize their strengths, and you know, and use them productively. I've never seen anyone study the reflected where self so I I can't vouch for it with data, but I have noticed a work around, which is you can just do the reflected bestself, and then at the end of it once you've finished making a list of of what your strengths are most of your weaknesses are going to be opposite of this. Right. So if one of your strengths is that you're really good at performing and kind of capturing people's attention. Chances are that you're not listening as well as you should be. If if one of your strengths is is actually keeping your cool and not being a neurotic mess there. They're probably times when you under react to emotionally intense situations, and you want to be more aware of that. And so I. You can make you could actually densify your worst self by just saying, okay? What's the opposite of my best self right, right? Yeah. What's the inverse of my of my best self because I think we all at some level. We do secretly know everyone right now is thinking, Ooh, I hope people don't notice that. This are all I know on a minute here. It's going to be about this in that we all kind of know at least those of us with even a modicum of self awareness. We're like, oh, yeah. People are going to write about my impatience. It's just that's going to be the thing that shows up in the worst self we secretly know this stuff because we've been chastised about it before probably by significant others, close friends parents at some point throughout the course of our life, and you you've got to be aware of of some of it unless you're toll. I mean, that's not just a blind spot. Right. That's being totally blind. Right. Yeah. That totally makes sense so reflected bestself optional reflected worst self. I think it's great that we have ways to figure out how to be. Become a little bit more self-aware by utilizing the phone of utilizing the perceptions of those around us that work with us closely because most of us almost every one of us has this. So we don't have to develop some keener sense of self awareness or go do hundreds of hours of what's it called that therapy? Where you go analysis. We don't have to do that. We can really just ask people around us to let loose on what how they perceive us, which actually people are probably dying to do at some level. Anyway. Right. Yeah. I mean, what what's funny about it is one of the ways that you know, you also think about the other side of this, which is okay. So, you know, I want to get people to be honest with me, but I also want to make it easier to be honest with them, and you know, sometimes people don't wanna hear the negative feedback that you have for them or the constructive criticism that you've you spent a lot of time figuring out how to deliver. So one of the ways that I've? I've I've dealt with that is I've started just occasionally letting people know, hey, I noticed a couple of things that I thought might be useful for feedback. Or are you interested? And no one ever says, no. Here's the idea that somebody is having thoughts about you. And you don't have access to those dots is very very uncomfortable. Right. Right. And so I think that that sometimes opens the door because once people have opted in and said, yeah, you know, what I I want that feedback. It makes it way easier to give it Adam. Thank you so much really interesting as always, and it's always great to be able to have a better picture or a clearer picture of who we are and how we can improve. And so thank you for your work. And thanks for coming on the show today. Thank you, Jordan. Delighted to be here. Appreciate it. Great show as always with Adam really, really a pleasure talking with him. If you want to know how I managed to keep guys like atom in my Rolodex on speed dial. Well, it's all about those systems those tiny habits the ones I'm teaching you in our level. One course, which is free over at Jordan. Harbinger dot com slash level one. I actually just did a class for this for some military and law enforcement and intelligence agents. And so I'm teaching this to people who are already good at networking. So if you're one of those who was like, well, I'm already pretty good at this naturally. That's great. You'll have plenty to learn here. It's not like put yourself out there. I've got real info in here that I'm teaching people keeping the world safe. So or making it less safe, depending on your perspective? But go ahead and check it out the drills take just a few minutes per day. It is free. That's the point Jordan, harbinger dot com slash level one. And speaking of relationships, tell me your number one takeaway here from Adam grant, I'm at Jordan harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. This show is produced in association with podcast one in this EPA. Sewed was co produced by Jason reflection of mediocre self to Philip. Oh and Jen harbinger show notes by Robert Fogerty worksheets by Caleb bacon. And I'm your host Jordan, harbinger the fee for the shows, you share it with friends when you find something useful, which should be in every episode. So please share the show with those you love, and even those you don't we've got a lot more in the pipeline very excited to bring it to you. And in the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show. So you can live. What you listen. And we'll see you next time. A lot of people ask me which shows I recommend in which shows I listen to one that I often listen to is called the one you feed with Eric Zimmer. And I've got Eric here. One episode. You did recently was with Steven c Hayes the founder of acceptance and commitment therapy sounds a little woo. But tell us what's going on with this episode. We'll it's actually not that. Woo. Acceptance and commitment therapy is sort of considered the third wave of psychology improvements. Cognitive behavior therapy being kind of the second wave, so it's sort of an improvement upon that he wrote a book called get out of your mind and Indy your life, which is an absolute masterpiece. And he just talked so much about exactly what it sounds like we spent so much time up in our heads, and worrying and fretting and planning and thinking that we're not really living our lives, and he has a ton of great tools to help you get out of your mind and into your life. And one thing that he says, I think is so useful. Is that one way to? Judge our thoughts. Whether they're good or bad is really whether they're useful. It's not as a good thought as bad thought. Is this a useful thought? And it's so powerful in the whole episode. I think is is really one of our favorites. And if you wanna check out the one you feed, of course, will link to it in the show notes, and you can also just search for the one you feed and look for the two headed wolf in any podcast app.

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