Finding Purpose in Immigration Law to Make an Impact


Thank you for listening to this episode of changes big and small. This is your host Damien each week. I share research or interview. Guess to help you make changes in your life. This season. The focus is on finding your purpose. Today, I have the great pleasure of interviewing a special guest Tamanna Watson is a seattle-based immigration attorney podcaster and activist for her communion to work. Samina was recently recognized as a 2020 woman of influence honoring by the project sound Business Journal. She is the founder of Watson implication law and founder of the Washington immigrants defense network terminal works with leading National Publications as a commentator and columnist and speaks around the country on immigration law and social justice issues. She serves as a national spokesperson for the American Immigration Lawyers Association and the chair of the response Committee of the Washington Chapter of Kile Tamanna also serves as a trustee of the board of King County Bar Association in Washington a past president of King County wage. Kind of women lawyers and a former board member of both the Asian Bar Association of Washington and Washington women lawyers in addition to being recognized for her work-life psbj. She's a recipient of the 2019 Aila president's Commendation award. Tamanna talks immigration podcast is available on Apple podcast and wherever you listen to podcast I listen to some of her episodes earlier today legal heroes in the Trump era is Taormina's second book, which was released off last week. You can find her an additional information by visiting Watson immigration law. And that link and all other things we talked about will be in the show notes. Thank you for joining me today. Tommy. Thank you so much. Me and it's so nice to be here and thank you for that lovely introduction. I appreciate it. Welcome. I wanted to make sure that I touch on so many of the difference. Things that you are doing and in fact, when I visited your website, I could see that you're doing even more than the things that I mentioned here. It's true. I imagine off either one of the most exciting things right now is that your second book is about to be released legal heroes in the Trump era tell us a bit about that book and what compelled you to write it. Thank you so very much. Yes. The book is actually coming out on Friday and the book is a compilation of stories from lawyers who have stepped up in the last four years wage includes the story of what I have done over the last four years as well as an immigration attorney. It's been a very exhausting and difficult time because this Administration office has implemented a lot of adverse immigration policies and as we look towards the future with a new election coming up soon. I was compelled to read These stories because there's a lot to learn from the past that you can use as you move ahead whether it's good days or bad days. And so my hope is that people particularly in America, but all around the world will be inspired by the stories of ordinary people who have been doing extraordinary things off or are you hope will read the book who's your target audience, you know, it starts with lawyers for sure because we are at a time in history where lawyers family need to protect the rule of law in this country as you might know America has gone around the world to make sure that the rule of law has established properly. Whereas wage in a time in history where the rule of law is in crisis right here lawyers have been trained in the rule of law to the ID off. She loved it. It's the basic framing of a society. And so when fundamental issues in a country is at stake people around the world have seen off the recent unrest that we have had in this country. We need lawyers for every aspect so my target audience firstly our lawyers, but really it's a song about anybody stepping up in crisis whether you're listening in America, you're in Europe somewhere or somewhere in a different part of the world. There are crises everywhere, you know, whether it's a climate change crisis whether it's a political crisis, whether it's a crisis that has been exposed because of the pandemic ordinary people will always step up they already exist but it's making sure that you the individual you who are hearing these stories and getting inspired to see what skills you can bring out and help people. They found it interesting that you went to school in the UK. So you went to the bar in the UK as well as in America. Is that right? That's right. So I was born and raised in the UK and then I got married to an American I moved here. And so then I had to take the bar exams all over again, but I was practicing law in the UK as a barrister for a short time before I moved here. I am you know, it's an interesting time everywhere exit is causing a lot of issues in the UK, you know immigration is clearly one of the top issues there as well. And and so my message is real life for people not just in America, but people around the world we need to come together and really need to be one. We need to be one in the humanity that we share off cuz ultimately that's what needs to be taken care of. And this connects directly to the work that you do as well. You have your own firm and previous to that you worked for four years as a partner in immigration law as well. What prompted you to open your own firm, long story short when I moved to the United States, I really actually did not want to practice immigration law, you know, I was a barrister in the UK doing trial work in the criminal courts and some civil work and I thought my past was in litigation, but when I moved to the United States, I realized the package way for Education was different for me and the legal system in America is very different from the UK people who don't live here for your audience. The United States has fifty states and each state has its own laws and then we have the overarching laws known as federal laws to practice in one state to another state to another often wage. To have a license for that particular State meaning that you have to then take the exams for that particular State. I took the new bar exams because it was something I could do having come out of Law School in the UK. I didn't have to go to law school again, but then that limited me in the areas of law. I could practice living in Washington state on the other side of the country but not aggression is federal law and it just very long story short. It landed on my lap after grappling with my own internal demons about I don't want to practice immigration law. I said, well, let me just do this for a little while and what's interesting is the very first day. I started practicing immigration law. I had this aha moment that this is what I was meant to do and until I accepted it it kept following me and following me and following me and the reason I love it so much. It is very intellectual dead. Challenging but you are actually seeing the impact on somebody's life immediately. You are also working with a variety of people from The Battered abused spouse often. It's a woman to the CEO who has invested a lot of money to open a business in the US hiring. Lots of people you get everything in between and when I filed a case and I get an approval the timeline could be maybe six months sometimes a little bit quicker, but you're seeing the impact on somebody's life but most rewarding experience is when somebody screams in your ear knowing that they just got their green card off the privilege to have that excitement to share with somebody where their life has completely changed and now in my office whenever there's good news to share I make sure that people off Team have the privilege of sharing that good news because it truly is a privilege to impact somebody's life where their livelihood their life. Their security stability is off. Now out of the concern they can now live their life. It's been a very rewarding Journey for the last fifteen years. That's so important and that directly connects to my next question, which is who are your clients? What do you do as an immigration lawyer? We hear about immigration lawyers and we might guess but if you could tell us from your own perspective, yeah. Well, that's a really good question, Thank you. And it's one of the most basic things that it's difficult to understand what we do on a very basic term. It's really somebody who wants to either live or work in the US somebody wants to come home and find a pathway to stay here for longer than just 90 days as Europeans do or work here whether it's for a short time or a long-term the way I describe it is I'm either unite song Loved ones, or I'm helping people create dreams as well as fulfil their own Dreams by opening businesses or hiring voice. And so the brought our times are family-based immigration and employment based immigration and within employment based often. It's people who are investing and so when somebody calls me the typical question is what do you what do you want to work here don't live here. If you want to live here. What are your connections? Do you have any loved ones? Who are they are those the people that can sponsor you potentially often? It's a spouse or a fiance or a child or a parent and one myth. I think it's very important for your audience to know because we have a president who uses words out of context and the understanding is family-based immigration is really immediate relatives parents children spouses. Sometimes siblings, but could describe it as Bullseye. Yep. Side the direct relation and only those people can come in and on the outskirts really siblings as well as children who are married and have their own children, but that's it. And so when a president came into office he started to use the word chain migration and nobody really knew what chain Recreation was. But chain migration was in a commonly used word. It's really family-based immigration. He started to put a derogatory connotation to it, but it really is a media family and how long it takes to get here depends on the distance of the relationship from the example of the buffet. The other category is employment-based where somebody will say. Hey I have businesses in South America or Europe or South Asia. I want to open a branch here or somebody will already be an American business owner saying hey, I have an employee who lives in Korea. I want to home. That person and so employment based is often really finding a Visa categories to suit that particular situation. Now America doesn't have that many of these categories and you might have heard of each one be Visa. It's the most popular professional Visa. But you know, I also helped entertainers who are musicians or dancers home in a privilege to help a lot of Bollywood actors and entertainers but also religious workers people who are coming here to be priests or imams rabbis and teach religious education. And so that's how I get the experience of working with so many different types of people with different backgrounds. It didn't enriches my team. It definitely enriches our country connected to that. What do you wish Americans knew about immigration, you know, the first thing I would want everybody to home. Preciate is America is a land of immigrants. If you are not Native American your ancestors came from somewhere potentially from Europe often. They came here because religious persecution. And so when immigrants came here and I will ask your audience to perhaps if they're curious about like in history. There is a documentary series called America The Story of Us. I wrote my first book it was published in 2015, but I wrote it in 2015. It's cool to start up visa visa for people who are starting companies and we don't have a specific one for it. But at the time I watched this documentary almost as a special occasion for myself, and it's a beautifully made documentary with animation and beautiful Graphics, but it's a snapshot of where America. Started immigrants came to this country where they had seeds that they basically started trade and all of that led to what we have today off. And so if there's one thing I want to Americans all Americans to appreciate is that where immigrants no matter how many generations you have been here? And we all my contributions some of the things that they don't remember or even know is that some of the common things that we have in America that are now global names are created of immigrants if you think about Levi's jeans Levi's came from Europe. There is the department store called Nordstrom here. It's a very popular luxury brand Department thought he was Swedish who came here you and I are wearing headphones, but there is a name called bows in the electronics World very famous. He's an immigrant who starve Those in America if you think about this pandemic that we're living in the modern-day example, people are using WhatsApp to communicate around the world that was founded by an agent. So the fabric of this country is intertwined with immigration stories, and it's very important that people appreciate it. If you appreciate it. You know that you can grow this and make us all flourish if we all do well we all do well and we're at a time in this country where there's so much divisiveness off that people forget their roots and it's all about what is in it for me. But if you expand your thoughts and you think about everybody you all do well, so I want people to remember that Collective growth is very very important. Yeah. I remember being startled one time sitting at a dinner table in the media. I was on birth Holiday, and I was sitting at the table with people from different places including some white Australians and at some point the conversation went to immigration and they started bemoaning the fact that there are so many Asian immigrants in Australia and I was flabbergasted eventually said to them it's amazing that you're making these complaints you are not Aboriginal people. How is it possible that you don't value immigration? I find it fascinating that people very quickly can become removed from that history and Miss even their own place in history in terms of the fact that the benefits from the ability for their parents and their grandparents and great-grandparents to have emigrated. That's right. So if you were to expand this message that you just gave for Americans and you've Lived in many places you have history with also. Is it India or Pakistan or its Bangladesh? My parents are from Bangladesh is Bangladesh. I'm sorry. So you have a history of Bangladesh. I noticed that you spoke Hindi and Urdu very proud a broken, but I can understand how would you expand that message to a global audience in terms of immigration? What Tommy I'm thank you so much for asking that question and giving me the opportunity to address it. My hope is that the book will have that message for people around the world and it's worth one message, you know immigration truly is a global issue. If you think about the pandemic that we're all suffering from, you know, all of us are indoors wherever you are in the world it started with one tiny little virus in Wuhan China tiny that you can't even see with your eyes and here we have a pandemic that song. Phone is an example of how connected we are. There's not even Six Degrees of Separation anymore. We are connected so deeply that this should be a wake-up call that we all need to care for each other and that leads to climate change climate change is a global issue that is displacing people all around the world from one place to another if you think about Europe people are, you know, taking any boats and trying to get from one continent to another because they want to stay alive the borders of America if people are fleeing violence to just stay alive. You mentioned Bangladesh. My parents home country climate change is a big problem. I lived in Bangladesh for a little while and I remember learning at school that Bangladesh would be under water at some point because that's what climate change will do. I'll just keep the example of America just recently in California wildfire. Burning Down the state in Washington state where I live not only are we stuck indoors because of pandemic we couldn't go out because the air quality was so bad. These are examples of where I live but they're examples everywhere pollution in China, for example, the deserts and what-have-you in Africa. We are so connected that we have to make sure that there are some Global solutions to what to do with people who are displaced and welcome them immigrants don't want a handout. You know, Canada is a good example of how they treat immigrants every Refugee that is found a home somewhere else in a different part of the world are not looking for handouts. They're working hard and contributing to the economy. I I once had somebody on my own podcast called Tamina talks immigration who was the director of international rescue committee and that organization helps refugees settled in America wage. She gave an example and statistic that for every $1 that our government spends on a refugee that Refugee is actually contributing three to four dollars to the economy is totally a different way of looking at Refugee as an economic solution to various problems. So my messages we need a global solution to what immigration needs to be not necessarily open borders because every country has its own issues there needs to be some Pathways to make sure that there are not necessarily open orders, but there needs to be more welcoming policies so that somebody who is dying across the world whether it's from a cyclone or a hurricane. That's May 4th hurricane destroying, you know, you're from the Caribbean what happened in 2019 over there. These coastal countries are going to be suffering from hurricanes like yep. Never seen before just like America suffering from wildfires. So climate change is truly one of the most important issues to address because not only the world is affected and we need to protect it. But it has all these other correlating issues of what I often say is that it's all a system. Right? And so none of us in isolation from each other, even when we would like to pretend that we are again. And again, we keep getting the message that we are not we are connected to each other. We need to start listening to be able to make the world safe for everyone. That's right. That's right. You mentioned taking the opportunity to share successes with everyone on your team. How do you deal with discouraging events? There must be times when things don't quite pan out the way that you would like or you see what's happening in America job. And elsewhere in the world and it is quite discouraging or uninspiring. How do you cope with that? That's a really profound question and I'll give you two different examples of situations one maybe within my team where I have a case that might have issues and what I do on a macro-level, may I see despair in the world? I want to preface it with 2018 was a turning point for me where I realized mental health is incredibly important issue because when you are thrown into chaos and stress constantly you as a human being are not going to be able to function to the fullest affect your potential. I started to take meditation lessons because I realized that the immigration policies were so adverse that they were affecting everyone of my clients home. And I realized that the stress was overwhelming and I needed a find a way in which I could deal with the stress on my own and I wasn't reflecting on others because that's what happens. Everybody has a vibration or whatever energy that you're putting out whether it's good or bad. It affects your surrounding and so I made a conscious effort to change myself within wage and that is really how I have now learned to deal with crises whether it's smaller internal ones or bigger ones. And so let's take an example of something discouraging it with my team. I will first try not to react immediately and get upset. It's very easy to do that. But you have to constantly work on that. But once you've taken the step back to see what the problem is, then you can actually try to see what is the solution. What is the first solution? What is the second solution? What are the legal issues? I need to research and figure out a way to fix it and present the song. Into the client and then work with the client and sometimes the problems are such that you can't do anything and then it's about a mindset depending on what the situation is, but I'm making sure that you find a solution there is the glass is half-full or the glass is half empty and I always choose to see the glass half-full. There was a lesson to learn in whatever that issue was we learned from that make sure we solve whatever is at hand and move on to make sure that we have learned from that lesson and to then implemented the next situation now on a more macro situation where we have a society in despair. Again meditation helps and this is something that I would encourage wherever you live in the world. The pandemic alone is something that is stressful people have lost jobs, wherever you live in the world. There's food insecure achieved as housing and security. It's everywhere not just America, so I have found that you've got to make sure that you find ways to deal with stress off. And so if you are not helping yourself internally, you simply cannot help externally and so I come back to that on a global level and the macro level and then on how to view the despair that we see writing. The book was one Outlet to make sure people knew that there are good people in the world if everybody looks within themselves to find the good and brings out that share a little bit of it. We don't have to spend a lot of time. What is interesting is that you really have to log? Make sure that you don't lose hope. You have to have hope if you do not have hope you cannot put One Foot In Front Of Another no matter what your difficulty is, whether you're dealing with an illness affect the set limits your time on Earth or if you're dealing with something about a loved one or if it's a bigger one about what's going to happen to our country. You've got to have hope is that one of the things that drives you because as I mentioned earlier you do a lot and one of the things that I notice you're also involved with the seattle-based non-profit group that helps battered women of South Asian background. How did you get involved in that work? The organization's name? Is AP Kya Asian Pacific Islanders and try I mean shelter. I've been a volunteer with them for as long as I've been in America the way I got involved is to wage. Since when I was living in in London when I lived and worked and studied their I volunteered at a similar organization called legal rights for women, they would provide legal advice wage women on the phone who had various different issues to deal with and I was looking for an organization like that to volunteer with when I moved here and I also didn't know anyone like the the typical immigrant story. Mine is not different I moved from one country to another I left everything that I knew and I had to start again, but I wanted to start with thoughtful purpose and that I found the things that I feel are important for the values that I hold in helping people. It's broadened as my experience as a grown but my passion at the time and still is women and children tire was one of those organizations, but it also helped me find friends track. Three family when you're an immigrant and you move to a different country friends become your family. It's an organization that is very needed. I've been here for fifteen years. I moved from England and about fifteen years is a long time fifteen years is also enough time to see the changes in demographic in society and fifteen years ago. This organization was even more important because people didn't speak all the languages and didn't have organizations that catered towards one particular demographic. And so I feel very privileged to be able to volunteer with an organization like this in those situations often. There is a bit of Taboo in terms of who can you speak to who can you trust and so I think it's so important to be able to help women that look like you that look like us of course anybody can help but I think it does matter to be able to have somebody else. That's you feel this connection with and sometimes background ethnicity does come into play. That's true. One of the other things that happened when I started volunteering with the organization. I didn't necessarily know I was going to be practicing immigration law, but in immigration law, I found a connection between these organizations off because often the women that I was helping and sometimes still help needed that help to either leave in where to get shelter or food and what have you and knowing the language culture. All of those issues are very important. Why can you not speak to your parents about the abuse that's happening back in India or Pakistan. I have to say I have a happy story in that. I was helping a Pakistani woman. Who does she been in the US for ten years had a child with her husband, but couldn't speak a word of English did a job. How to ride the bus didn't know how to do anything because her husband brought her over told the family that he's getting married, but on people wasn't actually I'm not married in the US and essentially used her as a slave eventually she was able to leave that relationship and when I saw her two years later, I couldn't recognize her. She seemed like a different woman. She was smiling. She was confident waiting for the bus speaking in English saying thank you for helping me. I'm out walking my child to school and and that's part of the screaming on the phone example and somebody something has a green card and they have freedom to do whatever they want to do the stepping stone to get to where they need to go. Thank you for sharing that story that experience of somebody that you worked with. I also read that to you recently served on the Mercer Island School District diversity advisory committee. What's that? About? Oh, thank you for asking. It's interesting. It's probably one of my proud non lo involvements I children go to the schools in this area and I am very honored when I was invited to be part of the superintendent's advisory committee, and it was interesting because it was an eye opener. Not a school any school not just to school where I live a school anywhere in the world is a mini example of society where children of different backgrounds different languages. I lived in Bangladesh. I lived in London and they obviously live here in Seattle, but people wherever they live there's always something that can be a distinguishing Factor whether it's religion or language or how you look what I learned from this experience long as schools where we need to instill the values we want to now society and I was very privileged to be part of the diversity wage as we committee which was so thoughtfully created with people from different backgrounds so that the school could meet modern dead. Needs I told you I've been here for fifteen years and the demographic has changed and grown and become more diverse systems also need to evolve to meet those. It's nice but you can't evolve those structural issues without having the guidance of how to do it. And so I was very very lucky to have that experience being part of a school district. That is so caring and thoughtfully conscious about making those changes and it made me realize that children often where we want to instill those values as the pandemic had begun. I started a little mini meditation group. I wanted my children to learn it, but I watch them to do it with their own friends and so between March and June I organized with a friend of mine a daily meditation session for many kids over zoom. We're dead. 410 meditation teachers from different parts of the world who donated twenty minutes a day for three months and it's because I believe if we can install these values in children off on next generation will be able to handle the complexities that we are throwing up them. That's wonderful. I think that is so important because of the C, especially at Young ages children really do reflect the values of their families of the communities that they're growing up in would you say that you are living your purpose. I think I finally am think I'm obviously still looking for my purpose but my purpose for the moment is to use my skills. My knowledge can see my background. I'm being alignment with what I'm supposed to do, which is to use all of these for the betterment of people and using that knowledge to potentially make changes in immigration. that helps not just people but the country you need to make sure there's a balance and as I mentioned as an economic benefit to immigration if I just take a message and As an example we have about forty million people out of work who are the brink of potentially losing their homes. If they haven't lost them already know if you've seen use articles, there are so many people in America who are waiting in line for food stamps and food banks. This is a song very challenging time in America and immigration is a way to actually create jobs bring in the people who can start Innovative companies and how many people I think I would love to be able to be part of a global immigration solution. I don't know what that looks like that could be part of what my purpose is, but really to have a bigger impact and making sure that when I leave this world my contributions are felt and remembered and my children carry on Lovely Do you have a Challenge or a request or a call to action for listeners. Yes. I do. Actually, I want them all to read my book to start with so that they can get inspired. The book is called Legal heroes in the Trump era Be Inspired expand your impact change the world read wage ordinary people have been doing and these are mother's these are lawyers and these are fathers and the parental Instinct truly is something that propels need to do more so that your children can have a better world. So read the book and be inspired and then find whatever it is within you that is a skill that you can use to help people don't sit back. This is not a time in history in the world to sit back find a way where you can make a contribution to your local community. It doesn't have to be something big grass. Roots efforts can make a big impact. So my call to action is find the problems that really bug you and find the skills that you have that you can contribute of fixing it. That's very important because you know the story about somebody anybody and nobody yeah where we expect somebody else to do something when really each of us down to our part. So thank you for suggesting that what would you say is your superpower? That's a really great question. Nobody's really asked me that question. My superpower is actually being a month. I think being a mother and I think most mothers would agree. Is that the love within you? Expand so much that you just never knew that you could love so much and that love really propels me to make the world better for them. But also love for everyone it grows. So everything that I do emanates from the love for my children and so I will actually say being a month is my superpower. Wonderful. How can people support your work and connect with you? I would love people to support my work. I think the immediate support I need is to make sure the message of the book is out there everywhere wherever you can share it they can buy it and read it and share it if you feel inspired and you have changed one life tell me about it. I want to know them and you have probably done a lot already tell me these are legal Heroes. I know but there are lots of legal Heroes that I know of from afar, they couldn't make time for in the book but there are lots of different Heroes doctors and nurses are heroes at the moment wherever they are in the world endangering their lives to save people in hospital quarantining themselves from their own children and family. They're Heroes the firefighters who are fighting the wildfires in Washington state. They are heroes. If you think about the people who go to these hurricanes won't place. Isn't giving a we're all doing something but more needs to happen because the challenges are growing people can find me on my website, which is Watson immigration law, but hand-in-hand with the book. I just started a website called to me that Watson. Com easy to remember first name last name. And they can follow me on Instagram. My name is an immigration law firm has the page on Facebook. I also have Twitter. I don't write as much on Twitter, but you can only contact me on that. I feel like it's a timer history where if you're thinking that you need to do something. It's way past time you've done something. So don't sit around anymore find it and do it. I like the subtitle on your book as well where it says Be Inspired expanded impact to change the world, which is really what this is all about. Thank you. Yes to finish up. What was a recent book that you read that you would recommend my gosh. I love audiobooks. I absolutely love them. What's interesting is I only discovered them three years ago. I mean they have existed, of course, you know for many many years, but I I couldn't figure out how you switched from a book that you've opened and you hold to actually reading a Kindle and I got used to reading Kindles. Then I was like Wow Kindles are great ebooks are great because I can have hundreds of books and just the palm of my hand, but then I had children and I started working and I got involved and I don't have time to read I lost brain cells. They you know, I read one page and then I go back to it five days later forgetting what I read. I just don't have time but three or four years ago. I started to commute. I'm somebody who hates wasting time and I kept saying who what can I do when they commute What do people do can I drop documents? Can I work when I'm and I realize that I can listen, so I was listening to the radio and then I started to listen to podcasts and I didn't quite get the podcasting even though I was doing radio myself and that's when they discovered books and to me initially it was just while it was driving and then the book was so engaging I thought oh, I can clean the dishes while listening and then I realized oh my gosh, I can fold the laundry while listening to this book and I have to say one of my proudest accomplishments is really getting all of my family into audiobooks the older one. She's only allowed to listen to books. She's read dead. But she loves with listening to books and our happy place is being in the kitchen baking and listening to books recently. My husband started to listen to books and now we can you know, listen to books together. And in fact, she guy writes a note in memory of Ruth played against in my book where I describe a story of us listening to her book an interview with her while we were driving on vacation. I love books. It's interesting. I've learned that what you listen to is also about taste and I've gotten into meditation. So I listen to a lot of books about meditation. But I've also listen to a lot of books about self-improvement. One of my recent favorites is something my editor had suggested the book was called you are a badass written by Jen sincero, but I listen to a lot of immigration stories. There was a recent book that I highly recommend called The Almighty. I forget I'll have to send it to you. Okay, but one of my other job Favorites was something called the shock Doctrine written by for Naomi Klein. It's a book that's actually ten years old. But as this Administration was changing immigration policies, and I was looking down the road about what this means. I realized that this Administration strategy. Is really to keep all the people on our toes keep us in fear and keep us in stress so they can make big changes at the shock Doctrine really describes something called disaster capitalism where often the handful of rich people at the top will look for disasters to capitalize on that was one of my first books. I listen to that just totally captivated me and I've not stopped since that but love audiobooks highly recommend it and I'm a big fan of self-improvement. Wonderful. Thank you so much for making time to chat today. It was fabulous chatting with you. Yeah. Thank you so much. I mean you've asked a lot of very profound questions that way I don't often think about it just do so. Thank you for bringing it out of me and thank you for having me on your show. I hope your audience will enjoy the book and perhaps listen to my podcast to me. Mina talks immigration and if people have questions, I'm always happy to connect I feel as though I can't know enough people. I hope you've been inspired by this episode of changes being and small. I invite you to leave a five star review for the podcast for any of the episodes that you truly enjoyed. You can leave the review wherever you listen to changes big and small every week. I share additional resources in the check if she's big and small Facebook Community come join us and invite a friend that you think will also benefit from encouragement and support remember change begins with one small step half a great week.

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