Epik High is our gateway into Korean hip hop (with Tablo)
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Are you familiar with abaci. No i'm not familiar with epic. Hi there like booting. Or beastie boys are to hip hop in the united states their elemental and over the last week. I have been doing this rabbit hole through their catalog and it's stunning lee. Play you off their new record. Epic high is here part one. This is their track. Indigent care about preston and nobody. Your heart now owned mercedes up near get because wait. Wait for dennis okay. That is straight fire. You've got your stink face on. I'm feeling lots of feelings. I mean i'm loving the transition from like waltz time into this four hip hop group. One two three one two three to be dropped since like. That's really cool. Yeah it's got a really aggressive beat. Its tableau flow is out of control. Totally the kind of melding of both korean and english lyrics but so kind of rapid. Fire that you don't even necessarily know when it's changing. It's it's it's pretty fantastic so we can go really deep into to this music but the reality is unique. I just really don't know cream that well. And before i go into my conversation with blow i thought it would be valuable for the both of us and for listeners. Who aren't as clued into this music to start off with a very cursory high level. Korean hip hop wanna one. That tutorial would be much. Appreciated for a neophyte. Such as myself okay. Great so i want to share with you a conversation. I had with the leading scholars of korean hip hop hi. My name is young. Kim music critic and that was colonist. So you're gonna. Kim has a phd musicology from the university of washington where he studied k pop and he's published definitive texts on and hip hop. I wanted to ask him about how. Korean hip hop developed to understand. Its unique musical and cultural characteristics. But he actually started by telling his story because it kind of mirrors the development of korean hip hop. I consider myself as someone who who's been. I was baptized by american culture. Since i used to watch this channel which is called af american forces korean network provided for us soldiers. So if you live close to a us military base. You can pick up this channel on your tv antenna from the morning show. Good morning. America like guiding light. You know the general hospital. Johnny carson everything even before the end of military role in south korea. This tv station was an important form of exposure to us culture and that transition of hip hop into create actually came through direct cultural exchange similarly in the clubs near these us military bases eighties. There were a lot of new type of modern dance halls and nightclubs where you can casually go to any clubs in to meet. Us soldiers or foreign there to drink in creon dancers were particularly drawn to the music that some of the soldiers were playing the club. Moon knight was a popular place. Where korean be boys used to go and hang out with americans and learn moves from the dance with him so it is actually the birthplace of hip hop and korean b. Boy move the fact that American armed forces radio and and basis may have helped spur the development of these korean musical styles is like one of the best justifications. I've heard for the military industrial complex. Oh totally and this is part of the story which i hadn't really considered that there was actually real exchange of music dance and so on and and what's happening in these clubs really reinforces the b boy dak component of hip hop over the other elements of the culture wrapping turntable ism graffiti and the emphasis on dance really crafted the sound of early hip hop the fun side of hip hop was more important. They would play any type of music. They would dance to. You know it could be a disco. It could be herbie. Hancock's rocket could be michael jackson's music. You could be run dmc. Ub land so rather than listening to public enemy were nwa more socially conscious hit upbeat danceable music. That's how they got into the new. Jeff swing movement and take it as a first form of korean hip hop but is actually. Korean is d- american pop. You can hear this new jack. Swing korean is american hip hop sound in the group says in the in their nineteen. Ninety-two song i know has done. And wow that is a fantastic may launch of new jack swing like maybe some heavy metal in there wrapping those vocal. There's my favorite thing about old school hip hop which is which is where they've got like the call and response in the height. Men backing them up. And yeah i can see why this would make people wanna dance. This is funky as as fudge totally is an expression i just coined funky as fudge. You're right on so tells you. And the boys were known for this eclecticism mixing this unique blend of korean hip. Hop and k pop. And you can hear that collectivism the metal hip hop the r&b that sound in style. Even makeup of the group is new and transformative to what will happen to create hip hop this formation is self in a singer producer mastermind with backup dancer. Legitimate members of the group is really game. Changer was a new thing. It was probably the prototype of k pop boy band nowadays but just as in the boys are breaking musical ground with this rap dance variety appre hip hop early internet communities start developing an entirely different musical scene by the late mid and late nineties. There were a group of youngsters who thought that that's not real. It's dance music. But it's not hip hop. This is really cool. What begins as disparate. Internet forum commenting on korean rap. Music turns into its own musical scene. There were a group of people who believe that listen to the music was not enough so they started a first korean underground scene. One of the things that these underground artists realized is that wrath dance is missing. Essential component like truly essential component of hip hop their biggest complained about the strategic boys and ali. New jack swing groups. They're really good dancer. Really good performer. really good singers or beat makers. But they're really not really good latest. Were rapper that does seem like an essential quality of hip hop yet totally. It's maybe hard to capture through translation but that early rap dance crean hip hop style was not just like maybe lacking in wrapping it didn't rhyme. It's kind of hard to believe but early. Creative artists didn't emphasize rhyming. It wasn't an important part of the rap. The popular belief was that creon language is not good for rap because of the system of syllables and curious of language. It is not really good for making good rap. Lyrics okay you. In korean. The verb conjugation endings tend to end with very similar syllables. Like oh which makes rhyme sounds. Not particularly creative or edgy which is such an important part of hip hop right is showing off your creativity in the way that you can. Rhyme so this underground scene starts to find new ways of using near rhymes interior rhymes eh mixed language rhyming including english words and finding unique uncreative grammatical structure is to create a korean hip hop flow of their own. And this is coming from this internet underground community who are kind of inspired by this new dance rap scene but also feel like it's not true enough to the spirit of hip hop. Yeah that's exactly right. And so it's not until two thousand and one where we get a pivotal record called. Modern rhymes by the artists verbal gent. Where we start to hear rhyming in rap flows and create hip hop street food. Street's on the going to be young keep them who des. You're not gonna get get. That is hot hot. I'm feeling that so hard. It's kinda hard to believe that rhyming is developed. just in two thousand one is that true. Is it just in hip hop or is it in lake popular music in general. It's not that there is no rhyming but in general rhyming just wasn't privileged in crane pop music at this point but once verbal gen releases modern rhymes. There are all these artists who were inspired and start to develop much more complex creative schemes which leads us to the subject of this episode. Epi highs another really good example there the combination of americans and underground hip hop nannette. Dig a tableau tomato out the tablet. Close team diplo folk. I trust their music is still danceable. Music embraces a lot of non hip hop elements. Go go. no they're one of the really rare cases that fit into every category like they could be considered as a k pop they could be underground hip hop but they're overground hypothesis ban as well. That's probably why they're the most probably most successful in the modern era and probably most where received both by critic send the natural trouble. Talk two three okay. Keenum makes cigna. Toby pick they have everything. you know. tableau superbia latest both in english language. A rare talent but also he doesn't really limited his talent in a more legitimate poppies or he used a really kind of minimal production. He heavily borrowed everything from every like electric music. Hip hop on our being even rock and other genres. Let's see the milk trying to love gallini. Surge genoa komo. Oh my god. I'm freaking out. That so good to cut and misra to their music and their production stars a theme based on the traditional turntable so this combination more eclectic songwriting talents top blow and the great talent desert latest and more traditional turntable ism combined to make this unique creation called up yucai. The guy hits on this formula blending underground boom bap. New york style beats with multi-lingual lyrical dexterity and cross genre. Danceable tracks that transcend their underground roots. Yeah sign me. up by. The only two thousand was still underground movement but epic kai based on this different types of streams and origins underground hip hop korean-american movement. Or proper dance music. They successfully combined is all different types of streams to make more accessible no hip hop acts. That would put hip hop on the map of the mainstream music. So in the two thousand. Ten's korean hip hop totally off. There are a reality. Tv competitions like. Show me the money that brings the sounds into every household the country following. Go go now. Why johnny go. Hart go on. Omaha one would chassis and the influence of epic high in other acts. Who pioneered that. Eclectic approach of korean hip hop has influenced k pop writ large crew in hip hop idol. Ats or big bang. They actually inherited all this different types of tradition. They learn this american style of hip hop from korean-american rappers. They use a similar technique rhyming skill of the want developing in the hip hop community underground hip hop community but they still maintain their identity as a great performer. And the great answers. So these new model. I think and others. They really kind of proof. That current hypothesis is evolving into this eclectic nature which is probably one of the things that makes it really unique. I feel like the scales have fallen from my eyes from my years. I should say. I mean i knew that korean hip hop was the thing. But i don't think i had any real appreciation for the depth of the artistry and the kind of surprising contours of its history. I yeah. I don't know this is very illuminating. And obviously a much bigger his here. We have gone much deeper. We'll try to add more detail in the show notes but the the big takeaway for me is that there's been this fascinating wanted to arc but almost feels like we've come full circle it to a certain degree right of this cultural exchange. That happens on. Us military bases in the nineteen eighty s to these underground internet forums. That bring crane american voices into the fold and the development of this music which is rap. Dance it is underground hip hop it is them hip hop. It is music that influences the creation of contemporary k pop idol groups and that those groups are now pioneering. Sounds that are coming. Back to the united states We're seeing this full cycle happen. Where influence upon influence is crossing shores and changing the sound of popular music Yeah deep all right you go talk to tableau about that. I'm going to spend some epa kind verbal gent and We can meet back at the end all right great. 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Just jump over to wave soda dot com to save fifteen percent on your first order coupon code on pop and be sure to check out the way of soda app for even more savings support for this episode comes from babbel and quite frankly this is appropriate because i kind of dropped learning another language in high school and exchange for learning music and people say that's like another language but i don't know i feel like it's time for me to pick something up over. Do good uses babble makes it easy to learn a new language with bite-size lessons that you'll actually use the real world but that will you can choose from fourteen different languages including spanish french german and italian and unlike the infamous language classes. You took in high school. That i didn't do very well. In that will designs their courses with practical real world. Conversation with my in using lesson plans source from over one hundred living breathing language experts. No i would their real world approach and speech recognition technology. Helping you to improve your pronunciation accent. It's no wonder that babbel's teaching method has been scientifically proven to be effective right now when you purchase a three-month babble subscription you'll get an additional three months for free that's six months for the price of three. Just go to babble dot com and use promo code on pop that's b. a. b. b. e. l. dot com with promo code on pop for an extra three months free babble language for life. Hi my name is tableau. And i am one of the members of epic high Which is a korean hip hop group. that's epic with a. I'm glad we decided to spell it that way because china google epic with a c. You get a lot of other things so yeah probably a dispensary somewhere. Los angeles yes. Funny thing A year ago we were trending for no apparent reason and we hadn't even released an album and by members are like why are we like worldwide trending number one and i'm like looking at look at a date and it was four twenty so i'm trying to explain to them. What a proud moment. Everyone was so proud This this is a very exciting moment. You've just release epic high is here. It's your tenth studio album. Yes you have called it dark with some slivers of hope wondering what are you trying to communicate on this record. So when i began making the record that was pre copen. The album was being created in a world. That was familiar to not just me to you. It was just the day to day so the sound and also the content of the music was summer along the lines of what we had always done. How would you describe that like set some context of the sound. Something you've always done with So it so. A lot of our music is very emotional. sort of down tempo. Lo fi. What boom bap beats. Yes and that's the music that we're mostly known for and that's what we had been working on and then covid struck and all our plans for two thousand twenty just disappeared just like everyone else. This thing occurred to me that this is the first time in my lifetime. At least were the entire world is feeling the same fear. Same confusion depression. All of these different emotions are being shared at this moment. It's something. I had never experienced everything on the news. Globally not just with the pandemic but twenty twani was aside from the pandemic for some odd reason. Globally there were things going on. That were enraging to people almost suffocating right and when these things were happening right in front of my eyes on tv and also just not being able to go out. I think it changed my mindset and also the music the music started changing dramatically and then became what that we just dropped became yet sound here is. I don't know quite how to put it. It's subdued definitely. I can feel dark. I get quite somber quiet acoustic instrumentation with beats accompanying them. This very strange juxtaposition yes. I'm curious about how you arrived at that sound. A good example is our song. Rosario which happens to be the lead single so the way i craft songs is i try to bring back a certain memory or a moment and try to recreate what that moment made me feel so the feelings that i was getting during the lockdowns and everything going on in two thousand twenty was that i'm sad. I am subdued but at the same time. There's this just angst and anger and this indescribable emotion. Where like You're feeling something passively and extremely actively at the same time And it it made me think of this one memory. I have When i was in high school. I went to mexico and i stayed with a family there and the house that i was in. It didn't have a ceiling. They had a huge blanket. Just covering were the ceiling. Should be So i i was there volunteering and staying with this family and on the weekend the whole neighborhood with gather and they would play music and the music. I heard that then was sad but so powerful dark but so beautiful. The things that i was going through mentally in twenty twenty like it made me think of that moment and when i went into the studio and i was working with all my collaborators. I told him that story And how that's what. A lot of people must be feeling. And so we we get at the opening of rosario this spanish style guitar. It's played somewhat. And i don't see this negatively but it's played somewhat immature early like it sounds like someone's sitting around hanging with the family plan the guitar. It's not perfect and we get this spanish style guitar. That's obviously evocative of this place that it came from. Yes when the actually recorded that guitar that was like the first take. Yeah and if you notice there is like it's kinda messes up. The guitar player messes up right. Yeah but we just. We're like oh. I love that. I love that feels real how it's imperfect and let's just let's go with that it becomes quite contemporary. Tell me about the how you wanted to merge that story with where you are today. The sound changes we get a very contemporary trap style. Beat and you enter with a fairly aggressive style vocal especially coming out of the opening song which is a much more laid backtrack. Yes so what. I was going through. Mentally was that the entire world is feeling all of these shared emotions confusion and just a lack of optimism but at the same time it was a moment. Wer- everyone in the world also was hoping for something amazing to happen. Not only in medicine but you know politics just all around right but in mainly feel like even in this moment of shared sombreness. There's something growing where everyone is coming together to do. Something amazing as human beings it made me feel like if i wanted to create a sonic version of what i was feeling in needed to be something over something sad but also incredibly energetic and almost aggressive like i wanted the music to sound like beautiful confusion if that makes any sense absolutely. Yeah because i think that's exactly what everyone is feeling at this moment. That's at least what i'm feeling added. Everyone that is nine. I love that. I was able to spend a year so close to my family to my loved ones but at the same time. It's you know each day goes by and you grow wary of the fact that things may not get back to normal soon. And there's this chaos that is brewing constantly underneath the surface and unimaginable. Your father you have a family as much as we want to be spending time with their loved ones were also wanting our family our our young ones especially to be able to go out and experience the world and grow and have a bigger experience. And they're able to have at this moment. Yes and i think. That's basically the thesis that i had for. What is album should be. And that's how. I tackled each song like the first song lesson zero. I tried to juxtapose like if you just listened to the lyrics. Read the lyrics You would imagine a hard hitting aggressive. Beat give everyone a voice but leash him with the mike golic feature. Thanks to find him out steph things to fight for everything you want but nothing unique that everything's got price and nothing is the turn everything to nothing major. Believe that everything is under control and this seems less. Please take me back to serve. But i placed it over a very peaceful piano ballad. Well it basically is about it. And i did that deliberately to keep up with this thing that i was feeling i needed every song to seem like a paradox almost. Here's this tension where you're you're both stuck in place and there is that pent up quality right because that lesson. Zero opens up with this beautiful song malady. Then once you're verse starts we get into some of the most troubling material of our our our current age. You have a line. for example. Like addicted to the news. Views positions to keep the visionaries glued to their televisions. They teach you to heat award of a god who has never spoken to breaking the law when it's already broken that appeals to me week to suppress emotion. Soon sees you at a heart till your chest is open. They got your haning. You walk to sell your pills and fiction reach for the stars when you were born up there with them addicted to the news. View superstitions to keep the visionaries glued to their televisions. They fuels into the particularly of this moment experiencing a whole year of not being able to do much for anyone. Sometimes it's very it's very serene right. It's almost idyllic in how you know you wake up. You can take your time to get your coffee you just you know you pick up new hobbies. Sometimes it's just sometimes. You're like convinced that it might just be better living this way. And then that under current reality just creeps up and just punches you in the gut every few times a day. That's how i knew my audience was feeling they were feeling like you know all it's great to work from home odds it's great not going to school. Doing virtual school. I i love being in my. Pj's but at the same time this anxiety just creeping up like twenty times a day and that sort of how i wanted lesson zero to sound especially for every single time and realized that we have so many friends loved ones and others who are not able to stay at home who might be on the front lines of the pandemic and we're reminded of that constantly. Yes you almost feel a sense of guilt for being okay when also in reality like that's what they're fighting for so that everyone can be okay right. I've never had the world have a hand in my creative process as much as this past year. For example. there's a song called based on a true story which is probably the only pure love song almost on the album. Shaw note and i had great difficulty writing lyrics or wrapping in a way where it didn't sound aggressive some. Should you know monday night chat. Go much he'll get. China comes your got your mommy up gandhi system where homer mom guy hubert dominate. You got almost incapable of not being aggressive. Because you know. I'd be working on the song i would take a break. I turn on the tv and immediately you know my mind would drift away from love or a longing going to something dark and i kept fighting it and then decided that now i think a love song from this perspective is perfectly fine so if you listen to the song like the music is almost like a studio jubilee film like t right like a soundtrack. It's very peaceful Pretty sounding but my rap is very aggressive on that track as well. She'll get you don't care. What did mama kolpak in. And the door bianca money you can hear the conflicts that you are experience even in the studio and more broadly that you were trying to establish in this record in the in those moments. I'm curious there a particular lyric that perhaps encapsulates that feeling in the song. I say that even if there's a threat of emotion poking out i m cutting it off. Because i am afraid that if anyone picks at it or pulls on it all of me will unravel. She didn't go be now. joining net. Going more nicobar feature now gone up to suck to do not on any got job with. And that's how i end my first i and this. This is a love song you know. This is a song where somebody is missing someone that they used to be in love with their alone now and their longing for somebody. That's a weird lyric to be in a korean love song How come because it's too. I think a bit too dark. It's taboo while not taboo. But because i literally say me. I say this is what i'm doing to myself you know. It's almost clear that i'm not speaking from the perspective of the subject of the character in the song you can tell that this is being said by tableau like by me as a human being almost as a confession to the listener. I just decided to stick with that Even though you know my members were like do you think dislike song is getting. The rap is getting too dark for the song. Like it's also you're spinning it in a way where it's very aggressive. They're like do you wanna maybe like tone it down and try to sound kinda just more peaceful or melodic. I kept listening to it. And i just decided not to because i felt like this is just real curious. You know as. I was preparing for this interview. I seeing that over the last couple of years home family life. Privacy have been very important to you. And i'm curious about how you manage the way that the music requires that kind of emotional honesty when there's also you know a need when you have such a substantive global fandom to also have your own space. How do you manage that conflict in the in the in the creative process. I sort of actually. Just talk about it on the album. There's a track all social distance. Sixteen where i say that. I've been social distancing from the industry in from mike public life. Maybe and this. This has been something that i've been doing for nearly over ten years. I had some happened to me about ten eleven years ago. Now there was a scandal that overtook my life for about two three years and it was extremely bad. It's not gonna sound like it makes any sense. In retrospect but at the time it is what happened. People didn't believe that. I had gone to the college i went to my college. Was like no you in here. And they still didn't believe it and for some odd reason. It became this nationally televised scandal for years. For some reason. I still do not understand. It was all completely disproven completely ally. It was completely made up and no matter how much proof came out. People would not believe it and it became this huge thing were there were protests against me in the street. My career was done All of my family members lost jobs. My father became ill and passed away so pretty much everything that was dear to me was taken away from me. This happened like right as my daughter was born. So yeah needless to say it was. It was difficult and very confusing time for me. The only way to actually understand that what happened. There's actually a leg leg wired article in english. They were trying to figure out. What is you know. I think it was the first case of fake news and cyber harassment bullying all wrapped into one. That is something that you don't really recover from because the things i lost are irreplaceable. I can get my career path but not not my family so i i think that still influences the way i think the way i view the world and that is why i say that. I've always been social distancing warranty we in quarantine the stream makes me sick. And there's no magazine ain't nothing you of always been social business in between my career was over at that moment and i imagined that i would never be able to make music again. And that's sort of when i started distancing myself from what you would call the industry. I guess i started functioning more individually and independently. I kept away from hugely public appearances and stuff like that. And as a result I've become a master of keeping my loved. Ones of the light. When i when i need to write even though a few years ago my daughter and i were we were the subject of a reality show. Which was the most popular showing korea. So you know. It's strange that i'm able to do that. But at the same time somehow made my privacy emotion even in the framework of reality television in the same way that life is a performance of different characters in different ways of being. Yes the part of you that you share. I imagine must be a performance of the consumption of your identity as well. Yes that is an interesting way to think about it. Because i do feel like. They're only two places where i'm completely honest. One being home with my family route. I am one hundred percent always completely honest and sincere and true to myself and then it's in my music. When i'm writing the lyrics or writing the songs i will say things that i probably wouldn't be allowed to say in public or on tv or in the media and that is probably why i'm so drawn to music like the only place where i can say some terrible things that i'm feeling Or some horrible things. That i can't work out in my mind and it it becomes something positive like it becomes something beautiful like people listen to it and they tell me that they identify with it and i think these two spaces are the only spaces where i'm allowed to do that. And fortunately these spaces are the only two spaces. I existed at the moment. We were just speaking about using music to say things. You can't say in other ways even potentially you know yourself years ago. We had this great intern. Olivia and she talked about the reason why that she loves pop. Music was because it gave her emotional cues to sort of expand her own emotional life. Like i can express myself in a way that i hadn't heard before so it seems that is an important part of your processes finding something that is particularly vulnerable and almost unsafe for you to share so that others can mirror that experience. Yes k pop. Music is many things as many great things. it's very vibrant. It's extremely fun. Very well-produced deeply And once you fall in to that rabbit hole. It's really hard to get out. K pop is pretty amazing but one thing it is not amazing. Ad is brutal honesty or brutal emotional vulnerability in its songs you. It's it's very guarded and there's reason to be right. There's a whole system around. There's there's an industry around it for and also most often the music is being written by someone else and then there are the i think the rare exceptions right like for example wrote is definitive. K pop group but their lyrics exposed their vulnerabilities and the lyrics are very honest. And i think that's why they've been able to connect so well with so many different people. But i would not say that that's entirely common is really hard to expose vulnerability in cape up but he needs to be done and i'm glad to see that a lot of lot of musicians are doing it now. Will it clearly is attracting audiences Us army listens to our show and wants us to do better coverage of bts which we really need to do. I want a one of the things that they always point to is is exactly that that authenticity the emotional sort of depth in integrity. That makes them really stand out. Yes and i know. They've looked to you and epic as influences and then they've collaborated as well. It seems as though there's threshold has been crossed that emotional stasis. Maybe isn't actually what audiences want. They want that release. Guess harking back on what. I was talking about my lyrics on this album. They want those threats like those loose threads. They don't want this perfect ball of string without any loose ends. I think the audience is looking for these loose threads that poke out so they can hold onto them. And that's what a lot of musicians are beginning to do. I think that if there was a threshold that just was never crossed. I think it's been crossed And musicians like myself. Bts and a lot of the independent music that's coming out in korea. You know these are all people in different genres and different spheres. Different spaces all doing this thing. Which is great. But still not entirely common understand that hip hop in korea especially underground hip hop and i know you all started out independent and have both been through the industry system and are now independent again. These independent music. It seems it's been a slow burning very important influence on exactly what we're talking about here. The capacity to express things in music that might be less emotionally restrained and it seems to me that we are in a place where now there might be more awareness from industry and idol makers that oh maybe that's part of the formula now like maybe we actually need to be more honest in the music fine kinds of emotional authenticity. Do you worry about the sort of loss from or that. That transmission from that underground scene towards a more industry seen. Do you think it affects how you think you want to express yourself in your music. How do you see that dynamic. Thankfully all of the the industry industry people that are trying to do that is readily visible. That fed it's not authentic manufacturer authenticity. Yeah it's it's it's not authentic. It's manufactured and a lot of lot of companies are trying to do that. I can see it. But it's so it's so manufactured that you know people people will know i always say. The audience is far far more aware and far more intelligent than any label or any suit. Honestly right any company or any industry. I believe that the audience is always ahead and they're ready for a lot more authenticity so anyone trying to manufacture it is not is never gonna. It's not gonna fly so fun songs upbeat songs. Whatever your party music totally cool like not to not to shade on it. But it's very hard to your what i'm hearing to have those threads that you're saying those uncomfortable moments. People haven't quite found a way to fit that into idle base cape pop. Yeah i when anything is benchmarked like win. Anything is mimicked is just not gonna be authentic. So i think what k- pob would need is to give the pen and the two more individuals that i think that is what needs to happen like these companies are not going to be able to create bts. They're not gonna be able to create an epic. It's going to have to be some kid who has a unique personality. A unique inner world. Both dreamlike and nightmarish So basically a human being just a real authentic human being who has talent you give him or her a pen or a mike or a huge playground for their emotions and then see where it goes. maybe we can book and our conversation with the end of your record in fact this is just the first half of a two part record So where it's going to go. But i feel as though the final saw really encapsulates a lot of what we've been speaking about mullen collie steep. It's personal can you set the stage of how you and your record and what you're trying to say so. I had a conversation with my daughter while i was making now and my daughter loves that. I'm home all the time that i'm a stay home debt. Like she literally loves that. I'm home and she wants me to stay home right. And she literally said. Stay home. Dad and i was like that's what i am. That's the conversation that i just wanted to put on record for the last few years. It's been boerum rain. So i've been a stay home. Did the pain and whispered stay home. People i've made the track And then i went into the booth to record a verse over it. And i thought of the many different things i could do. I could just do a like a straight rab. I could wrap up pretty much anything to close up an album. And i decided to go with something very simple and very almost the opposite of grant if lessons zero started off with this monologue or civility about like religion and the world and just everything going on give everyone a voice split leash with the mic court feature. Thanks to find about instead of things to fight for everything you want. But i'm the that everything's got up price and nothing is turn everything to nothing to make you believe that everything is under control z. The song kind of rises and build bigger throughout. And i wanted to close album with just a small intimate moment between me and my daughter so we got the song. Wish you were yes. I can't really explain exactly why i decided to do that. But i felt like if the album begins with the person that is dealing with the external world infringing upon their inner world or commanding their inner world. The last song of album is a song that deals with the person that is letting their small intimate inner world. Keep the outer world at bay kind of just saying that the outside world thinks i'm washed up because you know i'm not putting out records. I'm i'm a stay home dad. I'm older now. I never come out. You'd never see me in public or on tv sue. The outside world is saying that. I'm washed up but i'd rather be washed up in drowning in like past glory You know i'd. I'd rather be right here with with my daughter With my family on shore. I think that's what i was trying to say with this album like to whoever is listening. I know what everyone's going through because everyone's going through the same thing now all made in different ways in different degrees but we are all feeling this uncertainty and this anxiety and the last song was my way of saying that there is hope. Just don't look for it in extravagant places. There is hope but don't hope that it comes in this amazing package like it's it might just be what's right in front of your eyes. That's it perhaps. That's also why the sounds of this record. They're not extravagant. Like we talked about with like the guitar is just the first take. And that's sufficient the sounds are just sufficient. They're human and this is ultimately just the first half so. I hope that where the world is at when and advertise here comes out. It's more hope and less darkness. And maybe we'll hear that. And the record and i hope it's our world's going to be i really hope so too. Thank you so much for joining and being open and honest about your music really appreciate it. Switched on pop is produced by trotting nate sloan and bridget armstrong brandon. Mcfarland is our editor engineer and mixer. Though this week we were delightfully engineered by our old friend. Blance irish gottlieb does illustrations. Abby bar social media and shot kurla and lives nelson are executive producers. Were proud members of the vox media. Podcast network. I want to send a big thank you and shutout to young day kim. Who just is is knowledge on. This music is so deep. Amanda if you wanna more. He has a great article on culture. Call a brief history of korean hip hop to our shouts tune in next week because we have a very exciting very special very secrets announcement that we are going to make What we can't tell you now that we will also be discussing the music of a performer. Who will be at an event in which men run up and down a piece of grass throw things at each other very suspenseful and until then thanks for listening. Hi i'm eva retrial. Men the host of the cut a new podcast from new york magazine. And the vox media podcast network Everyone's as we work to explore important provocative ideas about the world around us so far. We've discussed what it's like to move back into your parents house and why. That's actually an incredible. And empowering thing to do we've also talked about what it means to be a radical and society expects you to be practical and pragmatic. 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