Part Three: How The Dulles Brothers Created The CIA And Destroyed Everything Else


my name is jill lepore. I'm an american historian but over the last few years i've been troubled by some pretty big questions about the president. Why is it so hard for us to agree on what's true. Why does it feel so impossible to know anything anymore. So i started a podcast. The last archive to find answers to trace a history. Listen to the last archive on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. We're By the time we get to the third part of this i just have nothing. It's either screeching urges. What you got which is ship and i'm ashamed. But what are you gonna do. You're going to go to another podcast. Listen to fucking come down. No you're not you're gonna listen to the third part of the the dullest episode you worms brine shrimp. I'm sorry i don't know. I don't know what i'm doing here. My guest again for part three. Who is my guest in the episode. Not my guest in emotionally abusing. My audience for no reason is jason. Pardon part of it is. This is a big subject. I guess not just a a seventeen hour long marathon of podcast. It's a it's a big subject to try to explain to try to condense to try to convey and it's big like we're trying to explain why the world is the way it is now as the half century it's difficult to get across. It would be one thing like if you're doing a very long podcast on say the oj simpson trial which is one singular subject with a certain number of players this subject the dulles brothers and the cold war it's so expansive and there are so many side roads you could get off on the did as mentally taxing to even think about it. It's fucking exhausted And it's you know. I was just saying the like there's a there is a set of left wing conspiracy theories who think that i'm cia operative. And i'm sure those people Who sometimes listen to the podcast for reasons that that Escape may Will be like. Oh he didn't bring this up and it's because he doesn't want people if they didn't bring this up because he doesn't want people thinking about it. No it's because there's too much like we're barely going to talk about. Mk ultra which allen dulles masterminded and a lot of ways in which was the cia drugging thousands of random people with acid. We're not even going to really get into it today. 'cause there's just too much to cover we're gonna do a whole two-parter on m. k. Alter don't don't don't worry about that. There's a lot to talk about here but like there's just you can't if unless you're gonna be talking for fifty hours about the dollas brothers and what they did. You're going to leave shit out. It's just too big a subject and then there's the question of like how much time you vote to what they did. And how much time do you devote to the influence of what they did and how it shook out in history and the context of why they did what why. Why find this interesting myself as like what goes through the mind of something like that but for example one of the two brothers he is just now about to the head of the cia just trying to convey to the average person what all the cia does. Because it's not just a bunch of spies every country has got that. Yeah the sierra your alternately here like they seem to have their own army couple of can organize and can invade countries like well. Now wait a second. How does that tie into what we know about. Like a james bond type characters like the cia is more than what you think. It is the reason conspiracy. People can think that they've got their fingers in a podcast host as because there's almost no limit on what they can do as long as the president wants it done in which is where the last episode left office. Basically have this mission statement is like whatever whatever it takes. That's that's the end of the sentence. It's whatever part of like what the cia like. Why the like work the way it did as you have you. You have a bunch of different ways that you're going to be shutting money out to people and shot gunning arms out to people and you use you establish different agencies and all these different you have these little different rat lines through other government agencies that do other stuff too but that you are also able to shotgun money through or have operatives in because again there's no limit to what the cia can do if the president tells them to or if they're pretty sure the president would have told them to but they didn't want to bother him about its they just did it anyway which is also the cia does cool dudes john krasinski said. We should be thankful for them every day. Jason did you catch when john krasinski got to a twitter. Fight with cody over that. No i didn't oh yeah well. There's there was an account that kept really dragging. Cody for cody. Dragging john krasinski for about how great the cia is and people started to think that maybe it was john krasinski and then there's a thing you can do where you can see some of the letters in Somebody's email address. If you try to get their password on facebook and it seems to match with john krasinski. Email was a good time. We all had a fun week. with john. Krasinski and cody arguing. Cody johnston friend of the pod Anyway all right. Let's get into this episode so from the beginning. The more intelligent members of the federal government had their reservations about the cia. The united states has never before had an international intelligence agency outside of wartime. Let alone with purview as white as whatever. The president says Dean atchison president truman's foreign policy adviser in an eventual secretary of state expressed quote gravest forebodings about the cia when it was established he warned the president that quote neither he nor the national security council nor anyone else would be in a position to know what it was doing or to control it. Harry truman himself later wrote. It was not intended to be cloak and dagger outfit. It was intended merely as a center for keeping the president informed on what was going on in the world. Now it's debatable as to whether or not harry truman's being honest here right like did is. Was that really your intention or did you just see what happened in wanted to distance yourself from it. That can be argued. But if truman's goal from the beginning was for it to be very different than what it became. He didn't really fight hard to stop it from a changing six months after the cia creation communists in czechoslovakia carried out what is often referred to as a constitutional coup now. The history here is complex but in brief at the end of world war. Two the czech communist party was super-popular due to the fact that they fought against the nazis and the fact that the ussr had liberated czechoslovakia from the nazis. Communism was pretty popular at the end of the war The party grew from about fifty thousand members in nineteen forty-five to well over a million by nineteen forty eight. It swept the nineteen forty six elections winning thirty eight percent of the vote which is still the best ever performance of a european communist party in a free election. Now since czechoslovakia was a parliamentary democracy. The communist didn't take complete power because they'd one they just were like the dominant bloc and government you know that's how parliament's work but they quickly alienated voters and fractured the broad left wing alliance. They'd been a part of you know understandable reasons once you take power. You're never as popular as you are when you're trying to get it. It became clear that the next set of elections were going to go worse for the communists and so they used their control of the police in a network of trade union militias to seize total power. This set off alarm bells across the west and lead to a sort of paranoia that other european communist parties were just biding their time until they could carry out the same kind of so. The cia used this as an excuse to start pouring money into operations aimed at countering other european communist parties namely in italy and france in italy. They funded a christian nationalist party that was seen as pro. Us and the recruited catholic officials to preach against communism. They drowned the nation in a wave of propaganda. Allen does was not yet a regular employee of the cia but he took a leave of absence from his lawyering to kind of pro bono. Help or ca efforts in italy because again. He missed the fun of being a spy. Now the fact that allen dulles traveled to italy to help the cia did not go unnoticed again. He's a bad spy. The boston globe ran an article with the headline dulles masterminds new cold war plan under secret agents so really bad it being a secret agent. I just. I can't emphasize this enough kind. Of the way that james bond catch his catchphrases him telling people his name. Yeah if you're if you're famous spy that's bad yet. He was a famous spy. Yeah he was a famous spy which you shouldn't be so at this stage of things. The cia as aid in italy will aid is a weird that what this you know the the shit the as doing it. Italy was entirely focused around propaganda and providing funds to sympathetic. Politicians are mostly focused but even at this early stage allen and his colleagues were discussing the possibility of organizing mass violence as a way to achieve their ends. They reached out to several officers in the italian military. With the aim of organizing. Okudah todd if the communists one from a write up. By the wilson center quote they viewed the project as possessing an extremely grave implications carrying with it the probability of plunging italy into a bloody civil war and seriously hazarding the start of world war three but since the scheme represented a final though thorough. Desperate action to hold italy for the western bloc. They did not want to discard it and recommended immediate exploration so they decide like ok. Italy might go communist. We have to set up a network capable of carrying out a coup. If the communists win an election we have to get all these guys in the army to help to be willing to overthrow the government. Even though if that happens it might start world war three in life in human on earth the fact that it would stop italy from going. Communist is a worthy risk. Like that's the cost like we have them in writing making that cost benefit analysis base. Once you have an enemy the you've decided doesn't existential threat to everything. And as we mentioned last episode that became the habit of making sure we always had one of those. Yep you have a blank check to do absolutely anything in anything including exterminating life on earth. We were and are fully prepared to render the species extinct rather than let it continue on under communism. Yup if you sit back think about that. That's kind of weird. Yeah it's it's a little odd. Because like i'm not i'm not a state communist but i think life even with all the critiques have the. Ussr still better than death. Once that template was established after world war two it would always be so and we mentioned last episode that after nine eleven then like islam and the encroaching like the fear of you had you had small towns in america passing laws saying that they they could not be ruled by sharia law. Yeah yeah exactly. There's some small town in brassica. Afraid that it any day now. The muslims are going to come take over that small town it and because that's our only way we can think about problems yet. So if you have that in minded that at any moment islam is going to utterly take over the world and depose capitalism capitalism the most unkillable idea in the history of civilisation like an almost impossibly durable ideology. Yeah the once you sold. The idea that civilization and freedom and free markets and capitalism are utterly fragile and at any moment can be toppled by the next threat on the horizon whether it's communism whether it's to muslims one of the next thing is going to be and we must do anything anything anything morally justified in stopping it. You're doomed. You've set yourself down a dark road because there's no checks in that direction the moment anyone says. Hey you went too far. It's like oh so you're a secret commie. And that was that was the atmosphere. The dulles is established and would establish and that we'd lift under until now you can still scare. You can win. Elections today with the red scare. The people are still just as afraid of communism as they were which is bizarre like the idea. The donald trump could talk about encroaching marxism in america. It's like what power do marxist have in this country but it doesn't matter that fear run is now etched into our dna. And you can think the dauntless brothers that to a very large extent yeah you really can It's bleak It's i really. It would be nice to be able to have because it leads to this. It leads to this kind of same thing on the other end of things. Where because of this. The way that kind of these tensions around communism when i get ratcheted because that's the way we go when we talk about enemies in our culture right that it's existential you get it it's led to this complete death of nuance on all sides. So now if you're if you're on the far left you can't be like you can't analyze geopolitics by saying like okay. Well who's the right and who's in the wrong. There's a lot of people just be like well whoever's not the united states is in the right and that leads them to back but shara assad or whatever or or back russia or think that the that china is is this. Perfect embodiment of the socialism. They once it's it. All it infects everything. I guess the fact that everyone has to be at this level of every threat is an existential threat every threat ins and extermination. I think it just it. It has got. It's so deep into our culture that it affects everything and that's probably bad man. It's it's extremely important. Understand that mindset though because this is this is what will govern the way. They're going to do business for the rest of the time. They're in power the dulles around power which is about to start yet soon because everything we've discussed with these guys should have ruined their careers. Many times over they will both be rewarded by becoming to the most powerful people on earth. His we've laid out is going to get them elevated to as high as you can go without being president than i in ways more powerful than presidents some press. They vote served longer. Yeah so yeah definitely. They're both more powerful than jimmy. Carter was. I think we can all agree on that. Yeah so yeah. In france the cia intervene to crush a communist led strike of duck dockworkers in marseilles. They developed an ongoing relationship with several clans. of course it can gangsters who they hired and used to violently crush the labor movement In marseilles in nineteen forty seven and again in nineteen fifty. And i think this is kind of the first example of the cia basically bringing in a mercenary force to do violence against their political enemies. And it's i don't. I don't know that anyone dies. They might have happened. I have found a lot of detail on this. But this is kind of the very beginning. Now while allen dulles was helping his colleagues in the agency explore the boundaries of their new powers foster dulles was still a lawyer for sullivan and cromwell. He continued to dip his toes into politics growing deeper woven into the upper strata of the republican party as the nineteen fifties took off his attitude about international order started to shift before and during world war. Two's we talked about last episode. He believed the root of conflict was the failure of national leaders to cooperate right. That's why you know you wanna spread all this business around because it creates these these actions that can bring peace now. Foster's view shifted as the cold. War kicked off. He came to believe that all global instability had its roots in the action of a single nation. The soviet union now this was a period in which and i guess you can say. That's kind of consistent to his earlier view. Because the soviet union doesn't ostensibly except you know business interests and stuff so i don't know maybe that's how he justified in his head. This was a period though in which labor movements and anti colonial movements. Were taking off in africa in indochina and in latin america just to name a few places. foster viewed all of this as not the result of decades of oppression of poverty of exploitation but as the result of soviet meddling from the brothers quote he began reading and rereading problems of leninism. A collection of stalin's essays and speeches by one account. He owned six or more pencil marked copies and kept each in one of his workplaces. He considered it a blueprint for world conquest and came to believe that the october revolution had basically been the seed of an inevitable process. That if left unchecked would into the very existence of world capitalism now foster believed that soviet communism was doing to the west into the christian world. Would islam had done hundreds of years earlier and a lot of his writings. he would draw. Direct connection between what islam did during the time that stand of the muslim empires were expanding in the would we call the medieval period And he would draw a line between that and soviet communism which i find interesting because in the twenty first century a lot of conservatives drew back to kind of soviet Like the kind of the the way we talked about the soviet union to talk about the problems of radical. Islam is just interesting that foster recognized. I guess that connection to in away both because there there are both is. He sought threats to the christian western order. And if you want to see the perfect intersection thing. Watch the movie. Rambo three Yes like not a joke It's all in there so foster was willing to admit it's interesting to me that that fosters sees soviet communism as this kind of existential threat in a way that he didn't see nazism he was willing later on to admit. The nazis had committed terrible crimes. And even that those crimes had had their roots and ninety nazi ideology but he accepted. Nazism is essentially western communism. He thought was an ultimate evil and impossible to compromise with you can compromise with nazis. Foster believed you can't compromise with communists which is ironic in part because both the nazis and communists compromise with each other on a number of occasions. But that's beside the point now in his columns and speeches dose insisted that the united states was a struggle to the death with communism defeat would mean the end of humanity quote. We are the only great nation whose people have not been drained physically or spiritually it devolves upon us to give leadership and restoring principle as a guide to conduct. If we do not do that the world will not be worth living in indeed it probably will be a world in which human beings cannot live again. The victory of communism is the extermination of the human race. That's the only way this ends Yeah it's worth noting that foster dulles was not unopposed in his views. One man who argued against him was reinhold neighbor who he'd served within the just endurable peace commission after the war neiber warrant warned that the great danger to the west was not communism but the american ego writing quote if we should perish the ruthlessness of the faux would only be the secondary cause of the disaster. The primary cause would be that the strength of a great nation was directed by is too blind to see all the hazards of the struggle and the blindness would be induced not by some accident of nature or history but by hatred and vainglory which i think is accurate both in now like e you can say the same thing about our response to nine eleven and a lot of ways The danger is not what actual attacks the enemy carries out. It's about how our egos lead us to react to them. That's extremely key here because the entire purpose of doing this series and why it's relevant and why it's interesting lies in my opinion and that the reason the doses matter is because this ideology that everything stopping communism justifies anything and everything. That's what they brought to the world or helped cement and the world. Because that what that quote the you know you read off their about. That like surrendered surrendering to communism means extinction of the human race as if communism is they kanter. That's growing and the body of humanity. That sounds like the teen of an extremist crazy person at a rally that that would basically become the defacto american belief for the next half century. Everything about the way. We behaved everything that the cia did it. All comes back to that in the fact that that was so easy to abuse. Because once you've established that any pro labor movement is secretly communist you now have justification to to intervene anywhere. Labor rights spring up in the name of stamping out the seeds of communism because of that slippery slope fallacy. We're anywhere you have. Workers taking to the streets demanding better conditions are demanding. Whatever things that otherwise would seem distinctly american. You can now justify intervention in any in all sorts of underhand ways based on well. This is fighting cancer. This is fighting the the knife at the throat of humanity that is communism where there's some alternate reality where the capitalists simply says hey will out compete. Them will show them. The capitalism is better. We'll we'll lead by example we'll become so strong with our economy that we will prove the communism doesn't work but that is not the path they took nope and it's you know there's an interesting similarity to me when we talk about the way. The rhetoric works where it leads. People to something i see kind of in the. I'm i'm seeing increasingly become common on on both the kind of extremist libertarian and the extremist right wing with groups like the proud boys groups like the boo-boys where the the walk around the shirts that are that say shoot your local pedophile. And they're not their problem is not actually with pedophile. What they are doing is equating. Basically saying this this thing that comes up again and again and conspiratorial culture where all of your enemies are secretly pedophile. And the reason you would want to do that is because you can do anything to a pedophile. It's the ultimate evil. So i wear these shirts like harry. The signs that same opposing pedophile. And whoever i'm beating up is a pedophile right. Like that's that's it's this. It's the same. I know it's not the same kind of logic. But it's an extension of that logic of if the enemy is ultimate than all remedies are on the table. You know yet because there can be at that point any nuances weakness if any nuance and how you approach i you want nuance in how. You approach profiles. Well we know what you are is because they want to shut down any discussion of what they're doing and that lets you go as far as you want because if you can just tag your enemies as whatever this trump card this trump card of evil that you at this point. There's nothing that needs to be discussed. Look there will be people possibly who listen to this episode or these a series and say oh so you prefer a world and wished everyone's living under the flag of the soviet union or which these countries fall under is like. That's a child's thinking that that the foreign policy is black and white and this battle between good and evil. That's the stuff of blockbuster movies that's not how the real world works in. No it's not and but again it's so pervasive because you get this attitude on the other side of the people who know a lot of the stuff that we're saying about the dulles who had radicalize them but part of what they take out of it as well then everything i've heard bad about the soviet union must be ally and that's complicated by the fact that we did tell a lot of lies about the soviet union but that doesn't mean it was a good government for whether they like it didn't work out in the long run But you you get this. You can't i don't know there's there's no room for new wants If you decide one side is bad than whoever. They're in opposition to has to be good in your friends and it can't ever be complicated because again if it's complicated it's nuanced than for one thing the level the number of options you have in sort of confronting it are reduced and you don't get to necessarily feel great about know what you did or whatever but movies give you a black and white version of reality because it has a fantasy that that the pure morality where the the bad guys literally referred to themselves as the dark side. It's this fantasy that's not how it exists and so you can have people in the name of fighting something that is truly bad such as child predators and using that as justification to do unrelated terrible things and that doesn't make them heroes. It's the the world is messy like that. This is why it for those of you who've been listening to this whole series. The very first thing i asked was do you think the doses were true believers. Do you think they believed in what they were doing. That they were actually saving the world and the answer that is difficult to decipher even as individuals because the two brothers approached this from very different directions. We see the decisions they made and the and then the position they took later in. Life is very different where they started. Even in this case of two people it's hard to discern. Did they actually think they were fighting on good or were they just using it as cover to do things on behalf of their former clients from that offer. And it's also i think sometimes it's a mix of things I'll compare this. I'll compare this to some some of the kids in portland. Who do Do some of the rioting I think there are people who believe strongly that because of how bad these issues with policing are because of just capitalism is and because of how ineffective peaceful protest has seemed to be in their in their life the best thing they can do is to go out and cause damage right to to businesses to police infrastructure because that gets attention that brings people makes people care about the issue and that that accomplishes you know point to like the burning of the third precinct in minneapolis and the impact. That had on getting some variant of justice for george floyd And they're they're they're a and and that's logically and i believe that they do believe that when they go out and they light a fire some of those other people also during that you know from an apple store and i think that taking from the apple store not that i'm equating that morally with overthrowing governments but there's a mix of i believe in this thing but also here's an opportunity for me you know like can get a free thing to write like it's it's it's an opera. It's a mix of belief and opportunity. And i think you see that. I think you see that everybody right. And i think sometimes we try to find justifications for things that are are opportunities for us Win were also doing things we believe in. I think it kind of everybody does that. These guys are just doing it at a much bigger scale. But i didn't get as a mix of i believe or at least for foster i believe these things about the world. I believe in this struggle. I believe that the stakes are this. I oh but also i can help. This guy is paying me. I can help him out to while furthering the struggle. I do think it you know. It's a mix of things and you have factions within the government within the business community. They may have some other motivation for seen. A government overthrown may have been they may run into opposition and trying to build a factory there or a rubber factory or whatever and so then it's very easy to say. Well you know he's really friendly with communists or whatever. Same way as with the red scare in the united states if you had a beef with somebody and you wanted to get them rejected from the industry it was. You could drum up that well you know. He attended a meeting of communists last month. I can prove it and that even though you personally have no concern about communism or anything whatsoever it becomes a convenient opportunity to jump on board and use that as an excuse on all this stuff this is not off the subject. This is this is this is this is explaining. Yeah why. America was the way it was because you did have a combination of true believers but then you had a lot of people who saw opportunity to jump to jump in. Yes that is exactly what we're what we're going to be talking about all day. Today i take a take an outbreak though yet sophie. Why don't you take an outbreak I would love to. I would locate kaya. Go do it. Sophie robber oh right. We'll be back soon. Every day can bring changes challenges and opportunities that can also change your personal or business financial goals and priorities as a true partner. Sandy spring bank can make it a little bit easier. Someone who really listens understands and then create solutions in hard times and good times. Always drive to be your advocate today and every day. That's real banking for real life into real business visit sandy spring bank dot com slash really member. Fdic christmas night. Nineteen eighty at raf bent waters in airmen on patrol sees something descend from the sky and into the forest outside the base. There was like oranges. Readies hollering in the forest and white like three men entered the forest to what they think must be a plane crash. But it's not a plane crash. It's something very different off. This season on stranger rivals the rental trump forest incident one of the most famous ufo sightings in history sometimes described as britain's roswell really what more can you say barroso lousy lean said. There's an awful say about rental shon as being said find stranger rivals on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows and learn more grim in mild dot com. We're back so just took an ad break. It was lovely great time complain. I'm glad in april of nineteen forty eight. While the secretary of state was in bogota for a conference. One of colombia's elected leaders was assassinated this sparked riots and mass violence that killed thousands. And eventually this kind of we've talked about levay violin in columbia a couple of times on this podcast including during the protocols episodes this this kind of fed into that hundreds of thousands of people die by the time it was all over in short. What happened the assassination of this leader in columbia and the violence that followed. It was the result of a number of things growing conspiracies. You know we've talked about that. In the protocols episode violent rhetoric among the right wing the linger results of economic depression severe inequality a bunch of stuff contributed to the fact that left and right and columbia started massacring each other for years but american leaders pay had paid zero attention to colombian politics. None of them knew any of the history. None of them had paid attention to why this was happening. And so they just kind of assumed that the violence had come out of nowhere and foster dulles decided this meant that the violence was the fault of moscow that oh this seemed to come out of nowhere because i haven't been paying attention to columbia. It must be the soviets fault right. They're trying to stabilize our backyard. The seizure of power by czech communists in the violence in colombia were seen as proof that the soviet union was orchestrating a grand global plan to destroy the united states. A senate report later claimed. Us leaders were in a state of quote near hysteria by june of nineteen forty eight. So like they're actually freaked out about this right. This is not a bunch of cold calculating. You know capitalists plotting to destroy the so these are these are got a lot of people. A lot of the people who are necessary in order for the crimes. Were about to talk about to happen. Believe truly that like the. They're staring down the barrel of a soviet rifle so to speak that same month. June of nineteen forty eight. The national security council issued directive nfc tin slash to a secret or approved by president truman that increased the cia power. The directive stated that the ussr had launched a vicious campaign against the us and in return. The cia had to carry out propaganda economic warfare preventative direct action including sabotage anti-sabotage demolition and evacuation measures and subversion against hostile states including assistance to underground resistance movement guerillas and refugee liberation groups. These operations were to be quote so planned and executed that any. Us government responsibility for them is not evident to unauthorized persons. And that if uncovered the us government can plausibly disclaim. Any responsibility for them. Now the fact that this was being pushed at and had been done by. Truman caused an uproar actually sparked something of a civil war in the republican party. Between is the latest in internationalist conservatives and the dillas brothers are internationalist right because they think that the us should intervene internationally to protect capital That said during this big debate within the republican party they were mostly on the outside looking in. They still spent the vast majority of their time. Working for sullivan and cromwell allen dulles is not a cia employees. He's kind of contracting with them a few times but he's not a full-time employees and fosters still doing law stuff Foster did Help in the negotiations that led to the creation of nato Allan during this period mostly obsessed over trying to make the cia a bigger and bigger thing because again he really missed the fun shit he done during the war His quest was helped along in june of nineteen fifty when north korea invaded south korea. We now know that stalin in the ussr are were not behind this invasion and in fact a lot of folks within the soviet union didn't think it was a good idea at all it was it was it was really not there call. It was a thing that north korea decided to do but america. The americans assumed that this was part of this vast secret war. The soviets were carrying out that like everybody was happening in colombia would happen czechoslovakia north korea. These are all again. These are all like pieces on chessboard. That the soviets are playing In order to wipe out. Christian capitalists civilization the unexpectedness of the attack convinced mini that the united states needed to put more money and invest more power into the cia. So that future attacks wouldn't come as a surprise in autumn. The director of the cia hired alan for a six-week consultants contract at the end of the contract. He was offered the job of deputy director of operations. This gave allen dulles control over all covert operations carried out by the. Us overseas one of his first acts was to convince congress to approve one hundred million dollars for the cia to armed paramilitary groups exiled from various communist nations dulles agents across the world to launch attacks and foment rebellions. Many of these guys were caught immediately. Allen dollas actually sent thousands of people to death in the first couple years that he was had this position in the cia and he felt no guilt about any of this saying quote. At least we're getting experienced for the next war. Yeah that's kinda guy who gets this job. He doesn't see these people. As people now allen's first major success would come in nineteen fifty two when republican dwight eisenhower and democrat atalay. Stevenson fought over. Who would get to be the president. Alan well this was happening turned his eyes towards the lovely nation of guatemala. Then and now. Guatemala was a very poor country and the largest landowner was the united fruit company. A longtime client of selenium cromwell foster dulles had done work for them in the past. The devil's chessboard. Gives a pretty good overview of the situation guatemala by the late nineteen forties quote the giant company whose operations sprawled throughout the caribbean ran. Guatemala less like a banana republic than a banana colony united fruit not only owned huge plantations. But almost every mile of railroad track in the country the only major port and the telephone system in the capital rulers came and went at the whim of the company. Now one of these rulers was hey Biko who considered the peasants of guatemala to be beasts of burden fit only to labor for the rich under his reign in the early nineteen forties guatemalan farm workers were roped together like animals in delivered by the army to united fruit plantations where they were forced to work in debt. Slavery to the country to the company or to other landowners like this was like our bananas were made by slave labor. They were chaining men together to force them to pick fruit. Seventy percent of guatemala's land owned by two percent of the population and a number of folks in guatemala. Thought this was fucked up some of those folks members of the guatemalan communist party who started agitating and for reform. Now not only communists. Were doing this now. only communist. This was wrong one non-communist person who realized how fucked up the situation was was a guy named kobo armez. Now our best was again not a communist. He was actually a young rich kit. The son of a swiss immigrant father in a mixed race latina mother despite his wealth and privilege. His upbringing was rough due in part to his father's suicide as a young man armez joined the guatemalan army and became an officer. He married the daughter of an el salvadorian. Coffee plantation owner in nineteen. Thirty eight now his wife. Maria had been educated a catholic women's college in california. She had also grown up wealthy but she was uncomfortable with the fact that her father had gotten rich off. The backs of poor workers. Yukogo had been raised by an indigenous mayan nanny in his relationship with her made him sensitive to the plight of the indigenous people of quantum allah over the course of many long conversations yukogo and maria decided to become reformers and to try to make guatemala more equitable country. They opened their home to activists including a number of communists. This made them ostracized by the local aristocracy. Mo- maria later said. But what did we care. They were parasites like el salvador. I wanted to broaden my horizons. I hadn't come to guatemala. To be a socialite or pre play bridge or golf so spurred on by his wife you rbis injured politics and in nineteen forty four. He helped lead a coup that overthrew Biko in the years that followed guatemala transition to a full democracy in nineteen fifty decided to run for president on a campaign of agrarian reform. He was elected in june of nineteen fifty two. He succeeded in pushing through a massive land reform. Bill under the bill. A huge amount of private land was handed over to poor peasants including a significant amount of united fruit land. Now the communists would have considered this kind of a fucked up compromise right. He did not go nearly as far as a lot of people on the left one and this was actually a pretty moderate bill. One of the things he ensured was that the land he took from united fruit and other companies was only land. That was not under cultivation. So he basically said. I'm not gonna fuck with your ongoing financial operations but you own all this land that you're not doing anything with just to own it and i'm going to give that back to the people like that's what our beds does but of course. The elite in guatemala did not see his reform as a compromise necessary to build a healthier society. United fruit started crying. Foul paid propagandists in the united states. Put out a series of red baiting articles with titles like the front titans grip on guatemala. United fruit becomes victim of guatemala's awakening. Shortly after our business land reform bill passed the dictator of not nicaragua. Anestachio somato So mahsa visited dc and told the cia that if they gave him weapons he would quote. Clean up guatemala for you. In no time. Stephen kinzer goes onto write allen. Liked the idea with general smith's approval and by some accounts with indirect encouragement from the white house. He established a small team of cia operatives that conceived a plot aimed at setting off a coup in guatemala on the afternoon of october eighth. Cia officers presented this plot called operation fortune to their counterparts in the state department. Frank wizner said that the cia was seeking approval to provide certain hardware to a group of people planning violence against a certain government. Another officer asserted that the operation was necessary because a large american company must be protected state department officials at the meeting. According to one account hit the ceiling one of them. David bruce allen's old comrade told him that the state department disapproves of the entire ordeal so this is not immediately popular people. This is not something that everyone is like agrees is a good idea. There are folks in the state department who are like seems. Kinda fucked up to Overthrow the government of this country to help a fruit company. You know it's the kind of thing that you would almost think the voters should have a say in because you're you're wanting to you know. Once upon a time a long time ago only congress could declare war and when we went to war it was like an official thing rather than as became the policy later. We just kind of stumbled into conflicts. Where one day you'll just hear the we've launched cruise missiles at some country in your country and there was no it was never put to a vote or anything. It's just something we're doing. I sydney here right now. Can i tell you how many countries we are doing drone strikes in. I don't know that's just. We just take that for granted. Now that well somewhere. We're probably tina drone strike at a wedding somewhere. But it's probably you know to take out terrorists or something the beginning of this. We now consider kind of normal. Really as far as i know comes back here where it's like. Oh this government is turning red. Let's just sneak in under the table. And just knock it over. Not with an official declaration of war. We're not at war with guatemala. Like my would we be but this might drive up the prices of bananas or whatever so it's like all right And this became standard operating procedure. This is not only not to say about it because it. Because if you're looking at it like propaganda from the time would have like a picture of a map and the map is slowly alternative red as like the commies bleed out and take over one country after another after another after another and you heard how long it took robert to explain the complexities of what was actually going on there. And that was a very brief various. Yeah overview of an incredibly complicated situation and when you boil that down to. Oh this is just stopping the evil communists you have no concept of. What's actually going on like you are. It would be better for you to have never heard of the country then to boil down in your mind where it's like. Oh these people were soldiers of the soviet union and this is just another front in our war by that is an objectively insane way to look at it. Yeah it's great that that's just how everything worked for decades Yeah in part because like you know if they had framed it as like well. These people are taking land that are corporations owned but don't use so that they can live lives of slightly less Desperation That that that doesn't Sound as good as they're they're trying to destroy christendom And we have to stop them in guatemala. Or they'll be in pokipsy you know next week. Which is you know how. A lot of it was framed you. You don't have to be a crazy person with like with like news clippings and red yarn on your wall join connections to say wait a second. So the law firm that represented that freight company employed the future secretary of state and and Or director of cia. Like it's not you don't have to dig the find the connections. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's pretty out in the open. It was a company that they had done work on behalf of them and they were doing them a favor under the guise of stopping communism. Like it's not. This is not a conspiracy. The i realize it most of the time on the internet when people bring up the cia. It's accusing them of things that may be improbable or or hiding aliens. Whatever you have to understand the real things. The cia did. They were absolutely real. It's you don't need the fantasy it's you don't it's there's there's there's enough to fill a lifetime of work trying to understand the stuff that they absolutely did So as i said like allen dulles kind of brings to the state department this plan to assemble bunch of c. a. operatives and overthrow the government of guatemala and they get shot down but the state department. But that's in early. Nineteen fifty two now in november of that year. The election happens and dwight. D eisenhower wins. Truman had acted as depending on who you trust kind of restraining hand on the cia. He was cautious about them. He didn't let them do all the things that allen dulles wanted to do. Eisenhower had no desire to restrain the cia and of course in nineteen fifty three he made allen dulles head of the cia which was not a great call. Now as a lawyer for sullivan and cromwell allen had been the legal on voyage of the company to guatemala. He'd actually visited so often during his time with the company that he started taking his wife on trips with him and he did not like his wife. So that meant something. Eisenhower made foster dulles in the same year. Nineteen fifty-three his secretary of state. Now this was the result of years of politics and asking by foster which finally paid off now that a republican was in office again foster to had his contract connections in guatemala before world. War one foster dulles had visited the as a sullivan and cromwell lawyer. His job had been to monitor labor unrest in communist activity in guatemala Both brothers lobbied extensively for intervention against our beds and they were not alone. United fruit was well connected to the eisenhower administration. The under secretary of state. Walter beatles smith was a close friend of the president and he also happened to be applying for a high police position with united fruit after the coup. He was named the company's board of directors henry cabot lodge eisenhower's. Un ambassador had a number of family investments in the united fruit. John morris cabot in charge in charge of latin american affairs for the state department was the brother of united fruit's former. Ceo the husband of the president's personal secretary was the head of pr for united fruit. So this is not just a cia thing right. They are deeply embedded with the eisenhower administration. Now eisenhower's administration labeled guatemala a soviet beach head in the hemisphere though are again was not at all a communist secretary foster dulles declared that he was forcing a communist type reign of terror on the country. The us ambassador guatemala working under the direction tried to bribe rbis with two million dollars to cancel his land. Reforms are best said no so the ambassador threatened to have him murdered when that failed the dulles brothers decided there was nothing to do but overthrow him. They found an angry disgraced. Colonel named carlos armas who was working as a furniture salesman in honduras. They hired a bunch of mercenaries to be his revolutionary army and the cia provided him with weapons intelligence an air cover as he invaded guatemala. Cia pilots bombed the capital which panicked the population. Dozens of officers in our best as army were bribed to abandon their president in june of nineteen fifty four you. Cobo decided he could not hold out any longer. He fled the presidential palace sending out one last radio address in which he accused the united fruit company and its allies in quote. Us ruling circles of raining fire and death upon guatemala which they had done of course the cia Blocked the transmission from going out. Not gonna let nine yell at that guy get a last word at the. Our best family spent the rest of their lives fleeing from country to country never able to find comfort or happiness. One of you cobos daughters committed suicide in the former president himself was harried and tracked in harassed and threatened by the cia until the day he died like they didn't just overthrow him. They anytime someone said anything nice about him any time he was on the verge of like rebuilding some like they would go into like it was personal. They wanted to ruin this man's lie. They were trying to drive him to suicide to be honest like well as range. The he wasn't able to find a home in moscow since he was clearly an agent of the soviet union did live there for a while because they were willing to take him in but they didn't like him was a communist and he didn't like living there so he left I think he wound up in Somewhere in latin america eventually might have been cuba but he didn't have a lot of options because the us would threaten any country that offered to take him in so the only options he had was the soviet bloc which then fed. Us property look went running to russia because he loves communism. Well you threaten to mexico. If they let him live there. Were supposed to go well. Who's supposed to kill himself. Yep good shit. So delicious considered the overthrow of guatemala's democratically elected leader to be among his greatest accomplishments. Now the co operation had been code-named. Pb success and david talbot rights. Well about the celebration. That followed in dc quote when they filed into the east wing for their guatemala. Slide show the. Pb success team was at the height of its glory. The room was filled with the administration's top dignitaries including the president himself his cabinet the vice president afterward eisenhower ever the soldier asked dulles how many men he had lost. Just one dillas told him incredible exclaimed president but the real body count. Guatemala's started after the invasion when the cia backed regime of casteel must begin to clean. The nation of political undesirables labor organizers and peasants who had too eagerly embraced our bessis land reforms. It was the beginning of a soaked era that would transform guatemala into one of the twentieth century's most infamous killing fields the stainless coup as some of. Its cia engineers. Like to call. It would actually result in a tight of gore including assassinations rampant torture and executions death-squad mayhem and the massacres of entire villages. Bloodletting ran its course. Four decades later over two hundred and fifty thousand people had been killed in a nation whose total population was less than four million when the reign of terror began five percent of the population thereabouts. So that's good one of the two now when most people talking about the early days of cia coups they'll bring guatemala and iran Both stories have a number of similarities for one thing. Allen dulles also had business interests in iran in nineteen forty nine working for sullivan and cromwell delivered flown to tehran and negotiated lucrative deal with the shaw under the deal. A consortium of us engineering firms would be paid six hundred and fifty million dollars to modernize the nation. It was at the time the largest foreign development project in us history now the shot and dulles kept in contact during the same time. The royal ruler of iran was not popular developing left wing and communist movements. Were agitating for his overthrow. Which deeply worried. Both the british and the americans who had invested heavily in iran's oil industry in nineteen forty nine at a party hosted by alan for the council of foreign relations. The shah of iran promised my government and people are eager to welcome american capital to give all possible safeguards he promised not to nationalize the oil industry. Which is something that the communists wanted. And you can it similar to like what rbis was doing and guatemala. Right i w- their foreign powers have basically through working with corrupt leaders. They put in power. Bought access exclusive access to our resources for way too cheap. Want those things because this is our country so that's kind of what the left is agitating for in iran. We don't want the british to profit off our oil industry. That should be our money. It's our fucking oil. And obviously the shop promises to his friends in the cia and the foreign relations that will never happen but of course. The shah was unpopular not surprising in nineteen fifty. One he was forced to appoint a reformer mohammad masada as prime minister after the iranian parliament nominated masada by a vote of seventy nine to twelve. So this is a popular guy like. That's not a fucking close vote now. Masada had found any political party called the national front which was a pro democracy party. That was kind of centre-left again. Like this is kind of center left as opposed to being a radical the national while they were i mean the national front was kind of radical for iran at the time but not to the extent that the communists were the national front again. They were not communist. They wanted a democratic system. Then we're not state communist. They wanted a democratic system and the agitated in the streets for iranian independence from foreign economic domination. Now right around this time. There was also a shia religious fundamentalist party that had carried out. A wave of assassinations. Um and they were you know they were. They also all of these kind of groups. The shia the communists in the national front are anti. You know the foreign colonizers and broadly speaking anti the shah of but for different reasons And all of this kind of unrest means that iran very unstable in this period and the main reason why the shah appoints masada prime minister outside of the fact. That parliament told him to work because he was kind of afraid that not doing so would lead to a revolution. Masada immediately launched a series of sweeping social reforms unemployment compensation sick benefits for workers an end to forced labour for peasants and a land reform bill that forced landlords to give twenty percent of their revenues to tenants. Basically they had to put a chunk of the revenues they landlords into like public works projects. Soup go back to the people in nineteen fifty two masada nationalized the anglo iranian oil company. A british business that had inked to deal with the shot to control iranian oil until nineteen ninety-three. The british were furious but masada argued that iranians were rightful owners of their oil. The british responded by instituting in international oil blockade of iran. They actually sent in ships to blockade. The persian gulf so iran can't sell the oil that is iran's but you know again they would argue that what we bought access to it for until nineteen ninety-three so they have no right to take it from us. i guess it depends on how much you like the british This old cratered economy. Which led to massive domestic unrest but masada still remained broadly popular. The british appeal to the americans for help or depending on who you believe. The eisenhower administration was worried. That all the unrest would embolden the communists and lead them and lead to a revolution that would send their oil over to the soviets so the cia had been active in iran since nineteen forty eight. They were actually led there by teddy roosevelt son. Kermit so a big part of the story is a dude named kermit which i can't overemphasize now. The main thing the see i had been doing in iran was fighting the to de party which was iran's communist party and they had mostly been focused on setting up what they called a stay behind network. This is a group of militants who could act as an insurgency. The communists win power. The shah was doing this all over the place. They did this in europe like they were setting up. Stay behind networks in italy and stuff. There's this whole thing called operation gladio that will cover at some point in a separate episode but like this is the thing this is all over the damn world anywhere. There's a single leftist trying to run for political office. They're setting up networks of you know assassins and terrorists in case those people get too much power now. Britain was expelled entirely from iran in nineteen fifty to try to convince the us to overthrow the government by arguing. That like masada success with that. The communists were about to take over. Eisenhower was actually hesitant to believe them But the dullest brothers were of course very bullish on the idea. Cooler heads pointed out that none of the conservative politicians in iran had the popularity to replace masada and so if he was forced out the only popular alternatives would be shia. Hard liners which weren't any friendlier to the west. So at first the british were rebuffed. The eisenhower administration comes up with some very good reasons why they don't think overthrowing assad is going to be a good idea. Eisenhower suggested stabilizing the masada government with a one hundred million dollar loan to help them through the blockade period. Who's basically like well. okay navy. They have the right to to not let the english after oil. Let's give them cash that their doesn't collapse in the communist can't take power which seems like a pretty good solution to me actually But of course this is not what they do he was actually convinced in part by the dulles brothers not to do this and so instead he tried fruitlessly to negotiate with masada to allow the british to take back control of the oil company nationalized. Masada refused saying that. The history of his nation's leadership was filled with corrupt cowards. Who had bowed to western money in. He wasn't going to add to that. Legacy in march of nineteen fifty-three allen dulles attended a national security council meeting with seven pages of talking points in his hand aimed at convincing the rest of the eisenhower administration to overthrow. Masada from the devil's chessboard. Quote iran was confronted with a maturing revolutionary setup dulles warrant and if the country fell into communist hands sixty percent of the free world's oil would be controlled by moscow oil and gasoline would have to be rationed at home and us military operations. Would have to be curtailed in truth. The global crisis over iran was not cold war conflict but a struggle quote between imperialism and nationalism between first and third worlds between north and south between developed industrial economies in underdeveloped countries dependent on exporting raw materials. Doulos made masada out to be a stooge of the communists but he was far from it. So the the iranian communists again massat is kind of like our bez. he's not a communist in the communists. You know respect some of the things he's doing but they don't like him all that much. He was not friendly to moscow and the soviets actually didn't want to get involved in iran because they're not dumb they understand sixty percent of the free world have been about sixty percent of the us oil supply. That's a thing we'll go to war over like that's not a thing. Russia wanted to fuck with in this period of time but of course nobody in the eisenhower administration was listening to reason. Once the lowest brothers got their propaganda. Machine churning over the course of several weeks. Alan foster succeeded in convincing eisenhower. That iran was the next great battle of the cold war and that if he didn't move quickly it would become north korea but with the world's largest oil reserves in june of nineteen fifty-three alan dillas presented the cia plan to his brother. And a handful of other key policymakers the actual coup plot had been drawn up by kermit roosevelt. Who had already been a arming and organizing an anticommunist resistance in the country. The plot started with the assassination of numerous iranian military and political leaders loyal to masada one general was found ripped apart by a roadside outside of tehran. Others had their throats slit. Now we'll all this was going down Unrest was growing in iran. The shah was actually forced to flee the country because a large band of communist and democratic militants were roaming the streets tearing down statues of him and destroying royal property these militants were loyal to masada some of them were. Some of them were communist. It was both groups out in the street and both broadly on the same page as far as this goes but on august eighteenth the. Us ambassador sat down with the prime minister in claimed falsely that masada supporters had threatened. The us embassy. David talbot writes quote. He warned that if the prime minister did not restore order the united states would have to evacuate withdraw recognition of masada government. The gambit worked masada lost his nerve according to henderson and immediately ordered his police chief to clear the streets. It was the us diplomat later observed the old man's feeble mistake with masada supporters off the streets. The cia's hired thugs were free to take their place backed by rebellious elements of the military on the morning of august nineteenth as masada huddled in his home with his advisors tanks driven by pro shah military officers and street gangs whose pockets were literally stuff with cia. Cash converged on the prime minister's residence masada was of course overthrown and imprisoned the shah. Who had been shopping. In france with his wife was brought back to govern the country he was not popular and in order to keep him in power. The cia had to go to war with the iranian left wing massacring communists and pro democracy activists wherever they found them the chief focus of their violence was the tuta. The communist party and with cia has helped the shaw us train security forces track down four thousand two party members between nineteen fifty three and nineteen fifty seven. These guys were basically all tortured. They were whipped. They were beaten. Some of them had share smashed on their heads. They had their fingers broken A lot of them were subjected to something called copani. Which is a torture method. Where you're hung by hooks. At least eleven people died under torture. During this mostly from brain hemorrhages dozens more were executed And of course with the shah back in power iran's oil was denationalised but under the new arrangement. Forty percent of iran's oil profits went to us oil producers in dc. The overthrow of masada was hailed as a great success As had was the later. Overthrow of our beds. An internal report on the coup described the party they held after the coup as a day that should never have ended for it carried with it such a sense of excitement of satisfaction and of jubilation than it is doubtful whether any other can come up to it. Did sound like a good time. Everybody's having a good one you know what else will overthrow. The government of iran in order to gain access to its vast oil reserves. Don't know about that. But i mean probably at least one of them right. I mean statistically speaking statistically speaking one of our sponsors would happily overthrow the iranian government. So here's some ads. My name is jill. I'm an american historian but over the last few years i've been troubled by some pretty big questions about the president. Why is it so hard for us to agree on what's true. Why does it feel so impossible to know anything anymore. So i started a podcast. The last archive to find answers to trace a history. Listen to the last archive on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. Fm stories of things lost to time or just barely saved it kind of just fades away. Just sits around in people's houses forgotten pioneer early cinema. How did anybody ever do that. Well she started. In the beginning the fading soundtrack of danger planet sound of human advancement. It's everywhere the instrument that score the cultural revolution. Music was immediately central to these political struggles artists on the fringes musicians. That maybe didn't really have a fair shake the first time around and an ever-growing collection of one of a kind of coordinate new episodes of ephemeral are available now. Listening subscribe on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows and learn more at ephemeral dot show. We're back so the was of course eventually. Overthrown in nineteen seventy nine and part of why the current government that exists in iran was able to take power this this hard line shia fundamentalist regime was because the communist and left wing movements in iran had been utterly annihilated. Right like that's a big part of why the ayatollah are able to take power is that there's no other anti-government organized anti-government forces in iran because they've been massacred by the cia whereas the shia fundamentalist kind of been allowed to to grow. Can i jump in here just yet. it's i feel like for. The listeners are has to has to feel like whiplash at this point. Because it wasn't that long ago in the series we were describing. An american government was did not wanna get involved in world war one at all and really hesitated to get involved in world war. Two 'cause like oh well. That's that's europe's mess. Like what business do we have deciding whether or not hitler owns france. Or what is like you know as that's not a repes- like there was a sizeable faction of conservatives sane small government keep mind our own business. That's well small. Government is small government is not you build a military has to the entire globe and to go from that a decade later or so to looking at the mess you described in iran the tangled mass affections and things get into oil rights. And all of this and deciding. Oh no that's we've got to be part of that and having it spin out of control in exactly the way the isolationists that you cannot control what happens after that. This is not a video game. You're not playing risk or whatever where you can just flip a switch and decide this country's not going to be communist. You don't know what's going to happen after that just as you know we. We celebrated when the soviets lost in afghanistan and then not that many what fifteen years later you know the the bowl back from that arise on our like. You can't control what's going to happen. So everything the isolationists have been saying. Plays out here because you look at like how this direct directly led to the rise of radical islam in the region. And it's very frustrating to me. The you'll hear people say today while we should be in the middle east. Those people been fighting with each other for thousands of years. No they haven't These were specific decisions that were made by people in washington who had not been elected. These people have been appointed to their positions because they were born into the right family and worked for the right law firm and the reason the geopolitical map looks the way it does and twenty. Twenty one is because of the decisions that the role of domino's they started following over back then. Yup yeah and it always does piss me off when people talk about like well. It's always been a mess over the number one for a long time. They were the dominant power in the western world And for another thing like a lot of these countries didn't exist like wasn't a country until it was made a country by france and england like they just decided that looks like a good countries. They were carving up. Shit like yeah. It's much more. i think. Direct with shit like iran. Where it's like. well no. They had a government that had a pretty reasonable political movement. That was doing reasonable things to try to improve things for the people of iran and it was crushed and the reasonable people were murdered. So the people who took power when the cia backed government eventually failed were not reasonable km. We could also talk about how like a lot of why iran is so the government is so messed up as the horrible war. They had with iraq that was directly incited encouraged and funded by the united states who armed both sides. Yeah it's you don't have to if someone disagrees with us. You don't have to reboot with the sins of the regime. That was overthrown. Because that's not the point. You can't predict what's going to happen in a situation like this and when they had this party like well look how easy that was. You know you have a government that looks like it's lean in the wrong direction again. Lose oil rights in wall. Hey if you think about it. That's a national security issue because we don't have oil that whatever it's like okay the i if you go back to them and say let me show you what the next seventy years looks like because of this would. They have made a different decision. I don't know. I don't know if they cared the thought that that they boiled the world down into such a simple equation. It's like well as long as we blunt. The encroachment of the soviets here that's all that matters is a really because you know just because you repelled. The soviets that doesn't mean that that play suddenly becomes a franchise of the united states. Everybody has this view of like world war. Two were like well you you defeat germany and then you know. Germany becomes a modern industrial democracy. You know there are best friends now. It's like yeah. It's not that simple. It's really not and the people still thought. Like i heard that during the iraq war. It's like well you know once we get an american friendly regime in there and we bring democracy to them and they will think us and they'll have their fast food franchises and they'll have consumerism. It's like okay. Do you know what the different like. Ethnic groups are in the region. Do you understand that. The borders were drawn not by the iraqis but by people who didn't live there. I do understand any of that deer. Stand who the kurds are. Do you understand what there's so much that even the people who went to war didn't know or care about the like it to be. You know that. I think george w bush even toward the end of his like he never was totally clear that there were different factions of islam. Yeah hit each other like more than they hate us the insistence on having this black and white view of the world is so destructive. I swear to god you see it come up again in. These people have to know better again. Just you had to race through the situation in iran tried to explain it the like that is the most surface level. It still took a while to get through it. I think some of the people making decisions did not necessarily have even that level of a grasp of. Because i don't think they would have been as enthused about sticking their their hands into it if they did. 'cause i if you if you would look at us the there's no way this ends well. Yep 'cause you're not gonna be able to babysit that situation unless you just occupy the country but we don't do that because we're the good guys know we We do the good guy thing. Which is overthrowing the democratically elected government. And then when a much worse government takes power In saber rattling about their dangers Which also has the effect of breaking some people's brains and making them defend the iranian government. Because clearly if it's it all it's just this this incredibly frustrating feedback loop where everything just is always accelerating into less and less reasonable and more and more dangerous things. I dunno jays. This is why. I admire the rare person i run across. Who says oh. I don't understand all that stuff is to condensing. It's like actually your more correct. Yes then the almost the person on twitter who thinks and two hundred eighty characters in a snarky broken. You can summarize like what we should be doing over. There shouldn't be doing there. 'cause it's like man i that's the attitude that got us into this situation. The it's it's like. Wow these people are bad and so we'll we'll just kick them over and then leave and they're all sort itself out no nope so yeah jason You know that's most of what we're going to cover in terms of the cis fucker in this period. I mean there's so much. Over the following years allen dulles ac- i would create the republic of south vietnam almost out of whole cloth which was pretty horrible government And they did it in order to challenge the north The attempted to carry out a coup in indonesia which failed in nineteen sixty allen dollas helped to mastermind the assassination of patrice lumumba. A socialist president of the congo prior to lumumba's killing dulles wrote quote if lumber continues to be in power. There's so we'll be at best. Chaos in at worst eventual seizure of power by the communists with disastrous consequences for the prestige of the un and the interests of the free world. His dismissal must therefore be an urgent and priority objective now the numbers assassination led to a horrible violent war The presidency of joseph mobutu a brutal dictator who robbed the nation blind and left it in like what is still to this day. A perpetual state of multi civil war. There's just in the congo has been torn apart ever since and obviously live that blame goes onto the belgians to but is just farcical that that that dulles ever thought that like oh if lumumba gets in power then we'll have chaos in the congo like nobody and again. I don't know if you were to tell him what had happened if he would have changed his actions. I don't think so I just don't now allen doha's retired in nineteen sixty one. I think foster had been out for a while at that. But i mean there's only secretary of state for four years or so away i think in pass by nineteen fifty nine something like that. Am i wrong about. This was foster. Yeah i thought he. I thought he left office. Might fifty nine for health reasons. Yeah nine hundred fifty nine and he was in so when he died That's where we have dulles. Airport is a guy named after him. And i think it was actually jfk who Who inaugurated dulles airport given ice speech about you know all the wonderful things that that foster dulles had done for the country it was not named after allen dulles there was a statue of foster dulles that used to be in dulles airport that is now has been moved out of the public part of the airport in his now just kind of like sitting awkwardly in a conference room because about ten or so years later people started to get embarrassed with foster delicious legacy which you don't hear about these guys anymore you know But yeah it it. It happened pretty quickly like these people went from being in the news constantly too by the time they were both out of politics in nineteen sixty one fading really fast from popular memory. Considering how influential they were assemble. That i think some of it's probably that people started to feel ashamed of what they done but i think more of it was probably it wasn't in anybody's best interest to help people remember like i think everyone listening this heard about the bay of pigs In school didn't don't know the name allen dulles sale you don't remember it yeah like all of these things that were just part of the cold war and help shape everything about the policy and all those different parts of the world. that's that was the douglas's all of it either entirely or partly it's baffling how much they did. And the highlight. That is by how much we're leaving out. We're not talking about the bay of pigs. Which was allen. Dulles is baby. We're not talking about the fact that after world war two. He was given the job of building a new german intelligence agency. Combat the soviets and he hired general reinhardt. Gaylon hitler's former head of intelligence galen played a huge role in the holocaust but dole is in the cia kind of hand wave that And allowed him to hire other members of the shopco to work with the cia in west. Germany there were complaints within the cia about all of the nazis. They were having to work with one of the guys who got brought in to work with the cia was conrad fi. Big who worked at the through gaylon was later charged with murdering eleven thousand jews in belarus. During the war there was a memo we have about this guy wherein one c. i. Employee suggested might be smart to drop such types from employment like and dulles gets asked about this guy does is asked about gaylon in general the british because the british unhappy with the fact that we keep hiring all these nazis and dulles gets asked about like gaylon and all the nazis desire again dulles responses. I don't know if he's a rascal. Rascal was not the allegation. The type of memos some of you in the listenership have gotten about inappropriate term that they would like you to stop using an e mails or something like that. They got that memo about well. Maybe we should not hire ex-nazis And there's like well. Are you sure thing that dude who killed eleven fasted people. Yeah he's problematic or you wear these problematic cancel. Culture comes for the s now. One of the things is funny is so he says he gets asked about gailani says. I don't know if he's a rascal. There are a few archbishops espionage. Besides one needn't ask him to once club which is funny because alan dollas absolutely invited reinhard gala to his club on numerous occasions he actually hosted parties for the nazi spy chief at the chevy chase club whenever he would visit. Dc shit. it's just good shit now. Galeone's big influence on allen. Dulles was the fact that galen was the guy who believes that everything was justified in combating the communist threat He wrote at one point in an agent which war is the paramount. Activity of man of the total annihilation of the enemy. Is its primary aim which is a very fascist thing to say and something. Both of the doha's brothers got on board with they were instrumental in pushing a policy on the. Us government called massive retaliation. John foster dole is actually laid out this idea in a speech to the cfr when he insisted the us would protect its allies quote through the deterrent of massive retaliatory power. I'm going to quote from a write up in history dot com here. Dollas began his speech by examining the communist strategy that he concluded has had as its goal. The bankruptcy of the united states over extension of its military power both strategically and economically. The secretary explained it was unwise to permanently commit. Us land forces in asia to support permanently other countries or to become permanently committed to military expenditure so vast they lead to lead to practical bankruptcy instead he believed a new policy of getting maximum protection at a terrible cost should be developed. Although dollas did not directly refer to nuclear weapons. It was clear that the new policy was describing would depend upon the massive retaliatory power of such weapons which is interesting because a moral level. What he is saying here is. It's too expensive to go to war all the times. We would need to go to war to counter the soviets. You know what's cheap is a fucking nuke skid shit and we could talk a lot about massive retaliation and how that idea played a big role in the escalation of the us commitment to vietnam in nixon's bombing of campaign But we're running way too long as it is to buy acknowledging m. k. ultra Which is the part of. Doha's legacy that i think people are probably most familiar with this as the cia giving everybody lsd. The idea behind this was that allen dulles had become convinced that the soviets were carrying out mind control research and we needed to do mind control research to counter them. Even though we actually had information that they weren't really doing all that much But th- that was beside the point allen dollas wanted thousands of people to be dosed without lusty. And that's exactly what happened. We'll do a whole two-parter on this someday. For right now. I wanna talk about the aspect of it. That had the biggest that says the most about allen. Human being wishes is the fact that he subjected his son to some aspects of the ko tra- program so his kid allen dulles junior or sunny was a brilliant young man with an incredible academic record in a sharp mind his mom and his sisters all adored him. but alan doha's senior was kind of incapable of taking any pride in his son and this kind of pushed his son to try to impress him and in order to do this. Sunny joined the marine corps. He fought with incredible courage and career and won commendations for reckless bravery under fire until he was hit by a north korean shell in nineteen forty fifty. Two and his brain was permanently damaged when he came home. Sunny was unable to take care of himself. Therapy did not seem to help. He would get lost easily. He would launch into angry rants where he called his father. A hitler lover and a nazi collaborator. His family dubbed these paranoid even though they were pretty accurate in desperation allen dulles cintas son to dr harold wolff who worked on the m. k. Ultra program we know something of what was done to sunny. Thanks to his sister. Joan visited during this period from the devil's chessboard. Quote joan has disturbing memories of visiting her brother at newark hospital where. He was subjected to excruciating. Insulin shock therapy. One of the experimental procedures employed on the cia as human guinea pigs used primarily for the treatment of schizophrenia. Insulin doses were meant to jolt jolt patients out of their madness. The procedure resulted in coma and sometimes violent convulsions. The most severe risks included death and brain damage. The one study at the time claim that this mental impairment was actually beneficial because it reduced paste patients tension and hostility joan recalls that. Her brother kept begging her when she visited him. Can't you do something for me. i'm going mad. He showed no improvement from his treatment. and of course obviously He wouldn't Is just seems to have done horrible damage. Eventually he just started like stopped talking to his parents in stopped like he just decided like i have to. Just pretend that. I'm fine that they will stop torturing me this way I dunno it's that's that's allen fucking dulles you know i mean. Of course he would like that's how he solves his problems. And i don't know if you you're about to cover this. But now he was fired after the bay of pigs cracked then effectively forced him to resign. But yeah so. I began the series by talking about my i like exposure dim in the realm of like cia conspiracy. Stuff was in oliver stone. Jfk movie yeah because after kennedy fired dulles and then exactly two years later or so Kennedy would be assassinated right nine hundred six november twenty seconds. Something like that. And then when they would form the warren commission to try to find out who had assassinated jfk allen dulles winds upon the commission share was who jikei had fired doing for his his behind the scenes Cia stuff in the form of the bay of pigs. So if you're wondering why like conspiracy theories and stuff persist and why they have like there's enough truth for them to go on to keep them fueled it's stuff like this like the. That's that's shady as can be it would seem to to my Innocent is yeah. It's incredibly shade. It's one of those reasons. Where when i'm talking about conspiracy theories i don't put the jfk assassination in the same realm as you know hollow earth stuff. 'cause there's reasons to have questions about what went down. You know not that. I'm a magic bullet or whatever like i. I'm not i have no. I'm not convinced on that. But i it. Certainly there's sketchy as shit that went down. It would be weird if people weren't theorizing about reasons why that might have happened. I wanna end jason. 'cause we mostly talked about the dulles brothers in the kind of men they were how they came about and how that led them into what they did and how that led to the creation of the cia. I also wanna quote a passage from the brothers by stephen kinzer that lays out kind of the talent allen cultivated. Because he was he headed the cia during its formative years. This talks about the kind of people he recruited. And i think this is the note that i wanna in dawn quote. All were gregarious intrigued by possibilities. Liked to do things had three bright ideas. A day shared the optimism stock market plungers and were convinced that every problem had its handle and at the cia should find a way to reach it. The intelligence historian thomas powers has written they also tended to be white anglo saxon patricians from old families with old money at least at the beginning and they somehow inherited traditional british attitudes towards the colored races of the world. The pook saheeb arrogance of the indian rosh but the mixed fascination and condescension of men like t e lawrence who were enthusiastic partisans of the alien cultures into which they dipped for a time and rarely doubted their ability to help until it was too late. These were the best men who formed the core of the early cia most came from privileged backgrounds that isolated them from ordinary life and had gone to the right schools during the war they had traded gentile lives for death defying adventures upon returning home. They found the quiet routines of peace. Unfulfilling yep it is hard to overstate the power of boredom and when certain wealthy people can decide for example. What i think it would be funny. If i ran for president sometimes sometimes people just want to find something to do and decide. You know what i think that the uncivilized races need me to come rescue them. Yeah i it is it is fitting that all of the people who kind of form the background of the early c. i. r. dulles types. They are rich kids from the aristocracy. Who go to private schools. Have an exciting time in the war and come home board. And also i think with that kind of ego that they know what's best for the world that has to be a factor and then you've got people like alan doss who i fully believe. A big chunk of his motivation is that nothing gets you laid when you're a spy and you you overestimate the impact of boredom or getting late or his ability to build a say. Well you know that revolution just happened. That was me i was. I barely escaped with my life. Like i had. Yeah that the guys assassinated. I killed him myself with the poison dart from my wristwatch. Why don't we talk about this. I can't tell the story here in the restaurant but if we come up to my room. Where's to on me. I can tell you the story and privacy with you and your twin sister the three of us you know you do a great allen dulles so yeah there you go everybody i. These are two names. Everyone should know these are names. When when we say i have shorthand like top the mccarthyism or whatever names dulles should be among those that everybody knows as shorthand and they're no. Yeah so if we have helped some people know these names and know what hand they had in shaping the mess that is a role today their ego. We've done a service. Yes that's all we ever tried to do service. And if you don't know the names of the modern versions of the douglas's yes john krasinski. Google john krasinski Jason you got anything do Plug up yes look out and say yes since. I abandoned The online publishing industry last year and left my job at craft time author a new york times bestselling author of several increasingly stupid books Last one was called zoe punches. Future and the deck. It has booked to in a series. You do not have to have read the first one it as good of a place to start as any or you can go to amazon or if you have a more ethical place you buy your book from you can browse any of them by looking at my name Otherwise i also have social media all the social media's except tiktok are you on tiktok evans No no i. I am frightened and confused by anything that the kids like sophie. Take on the handful of tiktok videos. That i've seen segments of on twitter. Have convinced me that we need to do a reverse logan's run i love tiktok. I'm just not like posting on there. It's a great time. I've learned so many helpful tips unlike organization and like what products to buy that actually work. It's like it's like yelp but video. Well you can either do what sophie lot of puppies puppies guy's gonna say it again. Reverse logan's run. I said in a previous episode like it's easy for us to look back on the past and condemn how casual they were about nazis in various i think in the future. They'll look back at how we tolerated tiktok And they'll say the same. It's like how could they not see where that was going. Yeah how could they not tell that. Tiktok would lead to the of the dolphins and twenty twenty two. And i saw it coming but thanks for having me on this was this was a lot of information that try to get through very quickly left out so much. We many stories that could have. You're going to do an entire sears. On multi part series on. Npl tra is also going to wind up leaving out a lot a lot. A lot of wild shit. It's just the nature of it. It's the best thing podcast can do. Is encourage people to go out and buy gaps on the subject and and pursue them because you. You're not informed because you listen to nine hours podcast on it. I like there was a lot to get through there so much more and it fall just as interesting. It really is and If you want to learn more buying the brothers. Which is where i recommend. Starting stephen kinzer and the devil's chessboard. By david talbot with will that that will actually give you a pretty solid base of understand these guys what they did they will still be a lot for All right here comes. The break is the groundbreaking. Podcasts sparking real conversations about creativity mental health pope and music asante black stars as rubin in a fictional narrative featuring real interviews with emerging artists. None of us. Would you give the families and parents supporting teenager to wants to pursue the arts if you see their dedicated and you see that. They really mean it in their grade. They're do event. Listen to here comes the break on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Four wherever you get your podcasts join. Grammy nominated rapper and author. Propaganda used his hood knowledge to break down the political scene in his podcast could politics because after all politics is just gang banging nice suits if you're a senator. You're down ballot. You're looking at this election. And you're seeing what. 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