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Morning Joe 12/26/19


We had dirty cops. We have people spying on my campaign. They did terrible things the likes of which have never been done in the history of. It's very sad all right. Good time everybody. Hey Merry Christmas. y'All that's a good happy Christmas Eve greeting from the president of the United States. That was president trump railing against dirty cops and fake news before wishing you and yours. America's was good morning and welcome to morning. Joe It's it's Thursday December twenty six. It's great to have you here. Hope you had a great Christmas with us. We have chief National Correspondent For New York Times magazine Mark Leibovich and Historian and author of the soul of America and Rogers professor of Vanderbilt Of the presidency at Vanderbilt University Jon Meacham he's an NBC news an MSNBC Contributor Corinne will be with us in a moment as will David Ignatius but Mark Leibovich I. He couldn't help. But think of you through this holiday season as word broke that One of the wealthiest men in America was using prison Labor To get get out. Get out the message about his his man of the People Campaign Mike Bloomberg of course loose broke a couple days ago. Does the hell that. Well just you're Ri- wet a profile. Yeah has to be he coming up there but I mean sure I add says straight out of a Charles Dickens novel. Isn't it yeah. It was a great. Wow I mean this this happen. What like I the day before Christmas and who broke the story was at the intercept I think that might Bloomberg or his campaign or some contractor affiliated with the campaign was does enlisting prison labor to make some kind of phone call related to the campaign and the campaign quickly was publicly horrified and it said they discontinued the relationship? And Yeah I mean. It's exactly the kind of story that you love to see the day before Christmas but looks like didn't okay I it didn't it didn't blow up the campaign. The campaign seems still alive and kicking and and here we are well again. It's I mean in in two thousand. Nineteen it's hard to blow up a campaign in the age of trump. No matter what no matter what you do need some Of course sir you of course being the Episcopalian Waspa- you are you. I understand US only only methodists. So do work around your house so you something you understand. I talk about talking about rob. Yeah Yeah Yeah talk talk if you well. It's very interesting Throughout the week in this Christianity today aditorial got good. Pick up a lot of people talking about it. And the Atlantic had a a story that caught my eye about Lief Andersen who has one of the largest evangelical groups in the country and he talked about Evangelical Evangelical Local Silent Majority. And this is a this evangelical leader is a strange strange man. He is an outlier. He is actually like the preachers that I grew up with. Who actually would rather talk about Jesus than politics? And that's whether you're you're far trump or whether you're against trump I mean there was a time in America. Where pastors were concerned primarily merrily with the faith of their flock and spreading the word to others and did not get his ensnarled in politics as of course they have over the past thirty years but there are some who say? Hey listen might might jobs not to talk about politics. I've got the greatest message ever given to any man or woman or child and I'm going to spread that message it's is it really harkens back to those pre moral majority days doesn't it it. Does it as everything he is It's complicated The abolitionist movement. The civil rights movement was driven in large part By religious fervor Martin Luther King was a Baptist minister And so there has been a great American tradition of people. Motivated motivated by religious conviction shaping the life of the nation in immensely positive and ethical ways. So there there is that you know the in terms of the last thirty forty years and I I would really date it From either nineteen sixty two and the school prayer decision I used to go to put political rallies was covering politics in north Georgia. It was it actually. It turns out it's now Doug Collins district and you probably saw this. In Pensacola there would be people with homemade signs. They're listing social Indicators divorce abortion murder all from not from nineteen seventy-three from row but from nineteen sixty two from Ingo verses. Batali where you had that bleed. If you took God out of the classroom that America had been said on a seemingly seemingly irreversible path toward decline Jerry Falwell's senior Israeli interesting on this. He admits that to use your phrase. He was about Out Saving Souls not winning votes until the morning. He read about the road decision in January of nineteen seventy-three and that transform. What he it was about cal? Thomas saw this coming COLUMNIST HE CO authored a book Lord Thirty years ago or so called old Blinded by the might blinded by the might where he worry that the religious right would replace. Pursuit would replace the pursuit sued of Virtue and Salvation and for spreading the Gospel Message. Which is the central injunction of the New Testament with political power? And that's what's happened. A lot of folks who profess faith at become pursuers of power not pursuers of the religious message why in. It's remarkable that the reduction of Christianity I wrote about it in Washington. Post reduction of Christianity in recent years has been reduced to the collection of federal judgeships. It really has. I mean if I if you if if you hold a position Different on abortion or on the family and what constitutes the family. Nothing else matters which of course is given Donald trump free rein to do whatever he has wanted to do. If you say as so many political Christian right say I don't I don't care what you do. Just get me federal judges who agree with me on one issue then you have assigned blank check for Donald trump to run around and doing everything. Donald Trump says for saying the second article to gives me unlimited power. I can do whatever right WANNA do. I can Hug Vladimir Putin I can turn over the Middle East to him I can. I can make Khufu myself in North Korea. I can I can attack federal judges I can attack the press and I can behave as if article two does. Let's give the president of the United States on limited power. I can do grey violence. Those Madison Ian Checks and balances that conservatives always went around talking talking about talking about the importance of those checks and those balances to stop the executive branch from becoming too powerful. Well if you say I only care about. The collection of federal judges as not only a lot of Republicans have gone but also a lot of so called religious leaders so-called so called leaders of the Evangelical Faith and it is so called. They're not religious leaders politicians. Then I mean cal Thomas Mrs Right then. This is not about faith this is about power. And that's that's a real reckoning. That's coming not only do the Evangelical Alkyl Church but to the church in general break in spike every single year during the holidays because families are traveling and burglars. No people have expensive offensive gifts lying around. What's crazy is that only one in five homes have home security? Probably because most companies don't make it easy charging astronomical monthly fees and and requiring long term contracts. That are difficult to get out of. That's why simply safe is my choice for home security. It's comprehensive professional home security at a fair price just fifteen bucks a month with simplisafe. There's no contract hidden fees or fine print and right now is the best time of the year to get simplisafe security system for the holidays. They're offering a a huge discount on a system and free security camera go to simplisafe dot com slash Joe pod. Now to take advantage of simplisafe's amazing holiday savings savings and get a free. Hd Security Camera this offers for a limited time only and it's ending soon so hurry to simplisafe DOT COM slash J. O. E. P. O. D. to save big begging get free security camera simplisafe dot com slash Joe pod. Hey It's Chris Hayes. Sometimes it's good to just take a step back from the day-to-day onslaught of news and take our broader. Look at the issues. That's what I'm doing each week. My podcast why is this happening. We're exploring topics ranging from school segregation to climate change. Well the way that I think think of it is. Climate Change will be to the twentieth century. What maternity west of the nineteenth century? It'll be the central subject of questions about economic justice. Everything you care about in the world will be affected. The climate and digging deep with guests uniquely qualified to analyze issues from mass incarceration to race relations. As you know for the first time in our history at the national level whites are on on the verge of losing their majority status in twenty years. And I think it's no coincidence that our politics are getting more tribal. Join me for. Why is this happening? New episodes every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts Dave Ignatius recent op Ed for the Washington Post. Sta You wrote this about how Americans can break are bitter impasse. You write in part. It's sharing this Christmas week to repeat the Bro Mine. Love Love Thy Neighbor but the unfortunate truth about America. These days is that many of us seem to hate our neighbors. We don't understand how other people can oppose the values. We cherish most most. Their behavior is infuriating and it often seems unforgivable. For Lucky we escape this blockage and re set the terms not conceding eating our old grievances but putting them aside what an I saw it actually putting grievance aside. The doesn't work in politics. When each side's narrative narrative becomes inflamed and reinforced by partisan politicians and media commentators and is reconciliation possible or even desirable all when fundamental matters of principle seemed to be at stake more and more I hear people expressing doubt about compromise and reconciliation in the age of trump? That's part of what makes politics so potent and dangerous. It's not the art of the deal. It turns out but a fight to the death thankfully even amid our current difficulties. America doesn't feel to me like country headed toward a second civil war. Turn off the television. A men go to a ball game listen to some music and the den from Washington Fades this season. I bet that a version of love THY neighbor. Her is a political winner as angry as people are few like the state of our politics and most Americans want away out. David Truer words never written and certainly when it comes to American politics. Meakin I through the years probably probably have given hundreds and hundreds of talks at Colleges Rotary Clubs Book Events Wherever we go. We say the same thing people whether it's Amapa Alabama or the upper west side whether it's ninety second street Y or someplace in Iowa Middle America people are so tired of the infighting. That's not me being pollyannaish. That's that's my political antenna going up that if you if you can prove to Americans that you're strong and your powerful and you're not just looking you have a powerful personality and you're not just looking for the mushy middle that you want like data Reagan like Lbj like FDR you. You're strong enough to bring people together and sort of force a political piece upon them. They want that sort of leader. That's going going to bring America together again so I found myself in this. Christmas week is trying to think differently about the politics as I wrote in this column. I dozens this year about our political. Impasse the dark days. That lie ahead for America all the things that we worry about. We talk about most mornings and tried to think. Is there a different way to look at these issues and obviously Ah. If you're a Christian your faith tells you that you need to begin with the sermon. On the mount those words that are so hard to accept really there so so radical like you ought to not just You love your friends. He ought to love your enemies too. You ought to aww reach out to the people who you think wrong do and try is somehow to break the impasse with them. So I got thinking about that in our personal lives. I think every and one of us knows that there's a truth to that. Get Terrible Confrontations with our friends or relatives are marital partners and the only only way out of them is to is to reset and escape that corner into which we backed ourselves. I I've been wondering. Is there a similar thing thing that can happen in politics with people who are so angry at each other each is so convinced. They're they're right and I wouldn't pretend that I came up with with with an answer but I did try to think this through what you quoted at the end. I do think the person who says I can reach out and work with the other side. I WANNA love my neighbor in effect. I would it be the candidate who can do that has a powerful message this year. More than more than usual I don't I don't know if it is Joe Biden that person I don't know but I think it's. It's a message that the public really wants to hear you know crane. It's it's so interesting winging you've always heard the saying the generals are always fighting the last war. I've always felt that in politics that people look at the results At the Election Booth Buckley Road and his great manifesto from last week and our chained to that believe that becomes the new reality. Donald Trump Donald trump won the election. But he lost the popular vote by a greater total than Nixon and Jimmy Carter and JFK. All three won their elections. It was a strange range political race and yet we seem to tie our political realities all to what happened on that one day in twenty-six teen as if that's the future that that we we are stuck with in the future and yet I disagree agree with that I think I think that was an anomaly. Historical Anomaly that people are going to be shaking their heads about thirty years. Who Go wait wait wait in? How did that happen and yet you see a party my mild party? You see a church my current church evangelical and you see commentators who support Donald Trump saying the most hateful things because they think that's the future they think that's invoke. I saw two things as yesterday. I went on twitter briefly because I knew I was doing this this morning so the afternoon I went into a dark corner instead of going to look at Vince for a minute or two. So like two of the doer. The first tweets I saw was very well known. Donald trump supporter attacking acking Jill Biden for giving food to hungry refugees on Christmas Day. And I sat there thinking about out the sermon on the Mount as David Said and all those wonderful red letters in the Bible Jesus Jesus words The story of the Good Samaritan helping helping a foreigner. His own people wouldn't help him and I thought his ceremony on Christ like tweet on Christmas Day than that and then hi scroll down and I saw a sitting member of Congress saying this is the true reason for the season and it showed Hillary Clinton and bill. Oh Clinton a great harm almost being done to them by falling lights a really scary moment and I sat there thinking these. These fools think that this is the new reality and they're going to be rewarded for this sort of activity being that hateful to attack a woman for actually helping poor hungry refugees. He's on Christmas Day. I mean obviously never read Matthew Twenty five about when you give. You've gotta give food to the Hungrier clothing to the naked or are give hope to the hopeless. It's as if you were giving to. Jesus eases himself and yet this is the state of politics for many people who follow Donald Trump in two thousand nineteen it. It is the stake of politics exactly Joe and if you think about it. Donald Trump is the symptom to your to your point about this is not. It shouldn't be the norm. I wish this is not supposed the way the things are going to be in the future. Donald trump is not the future. And if you look at the last three years joe putting on my political analysis hat we've seen the change. We've seen how people are tired of this if you look at how. Democrats won in these red districts. Why did they win in these red district back in two thousand eighteen and give over the House to Democrats because you had these suburban voters who said enough is enough? We are tired of this. We're tired of the madness. And they handed over the reins to Democrats in the house. If you think about Louisiana if you think about Kentucky the same exact thing these suburban urban voters who voted for Donald Trump in two thousand sixteen said enough of this craziness enough of all of this nastiness that we see from this president and then you see this. Coalition of suburban voters black voters independence handing that handing the reins back or over to Democrats. So we're seeing a change. This is not supposed to be the norm and it will not be the norm. It is devastating to see when you think about when you think about your own party who are supposed to be the party of of rule of law patriotism handing that all over to Donald Trump when you think about handing over Christianity. Just it just doesn't exist anymore. It is a very sad time that we're in but the voters are speaking out in the last three years they're saying enough is enough and now we're heading into twenty twenty money and so now this is where the big kind of the big opportunity to make sure that we hold Donald Trump accountable and Jon meacham. Obviously obviously Christianity exists and is doing well across the globe in many respects but the evangelical also you and I grew up around still many go to church and worship the Lord and and and keep politics out of it but it is it is it is something that there are very loud. Very outspoken people leaders of the faith who actually have have do basically turned their back on basic core core beliefs. That you can find the ceremony on the Mount in Jesus's parables just for a White House photo just for the ability compeer on TV and be seen as one of the president's selected a preacher's I I saw one comment from the from someone who who the Jellicoe preacher had worked with Donald Trump. Who said the reason they always fall in line? These these public preachers is because they they can't handle the shame of a negative tweet are being disassociated are being outside the reach of power for. Yeah yeah as as the Salma said put not trust in princes and I think that applied to mar-a-lago as as well You know you're right. The the core message of the Hebrew Bible and then in the New Testament begins in Leviticus Love THY neighbors. I self on these two commandments of love. Love the Lord's Love The Lord. Your God with all your heart all your mind and Love your neighbors yourself and President says on these two commandments. Hang all the law and the prophets not a word there about a meet and greet with Donald Trump Same thing not a word there about a meet and greet with the Democratic nominee This is this is actually a larger point. Then the partisan divisions of the moment omen and it's all about how a republic works right it's that Republicans the some of its parts. We're all fully engaged in this are dispositions of heart and mind yours and mine got help us matter enormously because they find expression in the Public Square Jefferson Jefferson Madison very strong advocates for religious liberty at the beginning of the republic. Were very very clear that they understood. Religion would play a role in the life of the country. We had to separate church from state but we couldn't separate religion from politics because they're both about people they're both about how people think think and how they act and so this has always been an incredibly important American balancing act. How do you manage Marshall? Religious feeling ruling in the public arena in a way that protects the rights of believers but does not tend toward theocracy and that our best we have found that balance. It is always precarious. It's like everything else in. The country is always precarious. And it depends on all of us and it depends on a certain level of humility the capacity to recognize again. Go to the Bible. WHO has known the mind to the Lord who who's been his counselor If you want to believe that you really understand what the Lord God of hosts wants take a few minutes today go read job. See how well that worked out You know that's that's in many ways of the most important texts in the Bible about humility understand. I ended the will of God on this side of Paradise is a mystery and let's work through this using our reason and using in a sense of humility of balance of forbearance and politics is complicated enough. That's what the founders understood. And they were they were coming. I'm from a world where they were fighting wars over the formulation in the Canon of the mass. And so they were you know this is going to be hard enough to settle this continent Senate and read project that government and project that power they were trying to keep religious struggles out of politics and I think that the forward leaning religious folks for whom that is the central social identifier should find a way seems to me to think of their citizenship and their faith in a way that is not absolutely one but is a balance between those two things and the balance. Let's needs to be restored and it certainly will still ahead on morning. Joe President Trump has mitch McConnell in his pocket. But he can't say the same thing about Lisa Murkowski Hausky how the Republican from Alaska is shaking up the impending impeachment trial in the Senate. Is this the first crack and that wall of support that Donald Trump's enjoyed since the impeachment inquiries begun. We'll talk about that when morning. Joe Comes back. She hates the Republican Party. She hates all the people that voted for president on Christmas Eve warning shortly after he participated in a video conference where he exchanged holiday greetings with members of the military stationed around the globe. Now the president's anger toward Speaker Pelosi continued. Then you'd into Christmas night where he questioned. Whether the House even had the authority to impeach the president tweeted last night in part quote. Why should crazy? Nancy Pelosi Jay again on Christmas just because he has a slight majority in the house be allowed to impeach the president of the United States aids. Perhaps the president should do something that he's never done before and read the Constitution of the United States. It might actually understand Dan. How the speaker of the House has that power of either party? Meanwhile one key Republican Senator Lisa Cows Give Alaska says she is quote disturbed disturbed by Mitch. McConnell's promised to be an quote total coordination with the White House on the impeachment trial in fairness. When I heard that I was disturbed if we are tasked as the full Senate to to do impartial justice under the constitution toossion and the law? That's the oath that we will swear to uphold at the commencement of this proceeding. Then to me it means that we have to take that step back from being hand in glove with the defense and so I heard what leader McConnell had said I happen to think that that has further confused the process Murkowski's remarks or significant because a fifty one vote. Simple majority is all all that's needed to set the impeachment rules. Republicans only fifty three votes meaning. Democrats would need four Republicans to break ranks and actually call all for witnesses. Call for evidence call for the very things a deposition for instance that Republicans called for and got got a nine hundred ninety nine. The impeachment of Bill Clinton not have said that do so but Senator Murkowski's remarks at the first sign so far of any dissent within and the GOP Mark Leibovich. That is fascinating only a few Republicans actually are needed. The Stop Mitch. McConnell from running a Moscow style a show trial where no evidence. No nothing where you actually have the person who's it's the judge and the jury saying I'm not going to be fair. I'm not interested in being fair. We're going to work with a defendant to make sure this is a show trial. Oh do make sure this is a scam preceding but Murkowski. Susan Collins Cory Gardner maybe more thematic Sally Thom Tillis. You have a lot of people who are going to be in the fight for their political life next fall they need for. Do you think they we can get there. I do think they can get there. I think Senator Murkowski's remarks yesterday. We're very significant. Because I think that this argument is going to be had very much in the center and and Lisa Murkowski Susan Collins Possibly Mitt Romney Martha mcsally. I mean these are these. Are these sort of centrist and much swing votes in the Senate. These days I I mean these are the people that everyone will be looked at it and the remarks like such as the one that Murkowski made yesterday are going to be scrutinized not just as a signal no of what one senator might do but whether there is some kind of block in the middle of all this that actually could prove decisive if there is an impasse over witnesses and now look Murkowski. Collins in particular are two very independent senators. They like to try to sort of fashion themselves. That way Murkowski herself both got elected as an independent Alaska. Her last Inter last reelection and Susan Collins in addition to sort of trying to toe that line is also up for reelection the election in two thousand twenty so I mean those two in particular but also you know Mitt. Romney has shown a willingness to be quite independent over this at least his public remarks and and I think that again everything that these senators say in the next few weeks. It's going to be scrutinized. Beyond what a normal senator would be because because I think we're going to be seeing this as an indicator of where the center of the Senate and so much is there is some Is Going to be so David Ignatius. It's interesting some people watching Lisa Murkowski may say. Wow she's going to get primary. How dare she do that well? Lisa has already been the primary. She was prime married by tea partier. She was beaten and a Republican primary ran as an independent and won so she has less fear than than most of the other. Republicans therapy you just. You just have to wonder if Susan Collins who again exists in a terrible terrible predicament. Politically that she put herself in. But Cory Gardner who is again a long shot at best. We just heard the name Mitt. Romney haven't heard his name in a while you really do wonder if some of these Republicans publican's who were trying to figure out a way to survive and rough political times. Don't follow Lisa Murkowski's cowpeas example. So they can go back to their voters. No matter how they voted then say at least at least I fought for a fair trial. I think that's all we're beginning to see. Murkowski was brave and forthright. In in saying what you're hearing privately on Capitol Little Hill over the last week which is that. The Senate has to look like an impartial body as ways. The evidence the idea that you have ineffective trial presided over by the chief justice. Where Mitch McConnell's already said what the verdict is going to be other Republicans of rush to make Donald Trump feel better after he was impeached by? Don't worry boss so you know this is going to be a rubber stamp that seems to have stopped and I think one of the smart things that made antsy Pelosi. The House Speaker did was to slow the process down after the articles of impeachment were passed and let the public and stew for a little bit. It's not been about a week week which they have to think okay You know what are the rules of the truck and be McConnell was implying that just raced this through an no witnesses. Just get it on that. That's looking less likely now. I do think that a key person down. The road is Mitt Romney. Mitt Romney's first reaction on news began to break about about the presidential pressure. On Ukraine. To deliver. Political favors was was in his words. Troubling in the extreme stream and on trump's response was to say that Mitt Romney was a pompous ass. Unusual physicial quote and Ah There's nothing in it for me really. Why does he need to curry favor? With Donald Trump he'll get reelected and you saw pretty much no matter what so i. I think we have an interesting Month or so when Congress gets back as the rules are sorted out and I'd be surprised if the Senate Senate Republicans it didn't decide. They need to something that looked like a fair trial just for reasons of self interest and it is so shocking. Let's bring in former the. US Attorney for the northern district of Alabama and an MS NBC legal analyst. Joyce fans. She has a piece for Time magazine. Entitled Trump may be acquitted in a Senate impeachment trial. That's not the same as being exonerated Joyce I said it's so shocking and I wanted to stop myself because the age of trump really at this point what shocking. We'll let me tell you. What shocking when you not only have the Senate majority leader saying I'm not going to be affair? I'm not going to be impartial. This is going to be like a Russian show trial. GonNa you know. It's going to be fixed fixed before it even begins which is what he said. And then you have the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. I mean that's a position growing up. I think we all looked upon with reverence whether a Republican was running it or a Democrat was running at whoever. That's such. It seems like such an important position in the life of our republic and yet the chairman of that committee Lindsay. Graham has said. I'm not going to be fair. I'm not going to be impartial. And we're going to run a show trial. We're basically basically said that we're we're we're GonNa get this done done as quickly as possible. I don't I don't want this is the same guy who said I'd not reading anything I don't want to read any and I don't WanNa know any information and and that's where we are. I'm not so sure Joyce that. That doesn't even backfire in South Carolina on Lindsey Graham who may actually have a more difficult the battle in the general election then he thinks I certainly know. It can't help Cory Gardner. It can't help Thom Tillis. It can't help Susan Collins. It can't help Martha mcsally and again. What does Mitt Romney have to lose? Does he really want to be remembered. As a guy who voted with Mitch McConnell to help Donald Trump have a show trial to have a scam trial in the Senate. I think not. I think you're absolutely right about this. This joe there's a political price to be paid for treating an impeachment trial in such a cavalier fashion. None of the conduct that you're talking about would be tolerated. In the criminal justice system people would ask for judge and jurors to be prosecuted if there was that sort of complicity. We all understand that an impeachment trial is different. It's sort of a hybrid. That has both aspects of the criminal justice system but also a political aspect. The Senator Sid it is as jurors who judged what what facts the evidence proves but they also get to make the rules taking on part of the job that we typically assigned to a judge judge in a criminal trial but with that said the American people are pretty sophisticated about using trials as a truth telling sort of an exercise size. They will expect something here. That looks like what they've come to expect in the criminal system a process with integrity where they hear from the witnesses who have relevant relevant information. I think witnesses who were close to the president or suppressed if we never hear their testimony. The process won't be perceived as a fair one and an older voters may put a price tag on this and may impose pain on some of these senators invulnerable states. Come the election in twenty twenty career Hey Hey this is corrine if you were giving advice to a Democrats in the Senate right now as we're trying to figure out how out of what's going on Nancy Pelosi's clearly holding onto the articles of impeachment because she wants a fair trial. What would you be advising Democrats right? Now Chuck Schumer Humor. What would you be telling him in? What what how? How can he make this a fair trial? What can he be doing you? We know Joe and Jon Meacham had a really interesting conversation at the start of the show where they talked about how turned off. People across the country are by this political medical squabbling. That seems to go on constantly and what Democrats need to do here is is what we've all talked about. Throughout the trump presidency. They need to set the side party and think about country first so they should act in all ways in fairness in the interests of justice. And you know it may be sounds a little bit pollyannaish manish but I think what they need to do is have only one goal here for this to be a truth telling process. That's fair to both the president and the citizens of the United States and you insist on getting that process. So is that possible Jon Meacham sure of the Madison said if anything is to be hoped everything must be tried and I think that's the sense of forward leaning optimism that we should have been. We've been talking about the religious right here. We haven't mentioned reinhold Niebuhr yet and it is the Dan. I made a passing reference. Actually too early in the show you must have missed Mr John. Go ahead okay. Well it happens because it. It's kind of A. It's a Christmas tradition. At least around our house that will allow from from the the American history The kids love it. I gotTa tell you go but but there isn't a sense that we have to. Ah The epigraph to Jimmy. Carter's why not the best was the the sad duty of politics is to establish justice in a sinful world. Sad duty. Duty of politics is to establish justice in a sinful world and these processes. We have Joyce talking about these. These conventions the entire structure of law and Society Society is about doing the best we can to check our appetites and ambitions and try to get to the best possible result not the best result right. It's it's the best possible result and the that's true in any legal proceeding you put it in the United States Senate is even more complicated because of the political L. motivations of so many of the jurors but I think Senator Murkowski was. It was interesting on this. I agree with whatever by said about the different senators. Who might want to do? Do It seems to me. You can argue that. Let's take the president at his word and if this was a perfect call. Let's let's learn more about it. Yeah well it's Something we should do and something. Hopefully that Lisa Murkowski will lead either way to find at least a handful of Republicans who want a fair hearing for the president a fair trial for the president and not a show trial trial which will of course only have him marked down as guilty at least in the eyes of historians for hundreds of years. let's have a fair trial. Let's have an open trial. Get all the evidence that we can and know. The facts light aid has been said. Many times is the best US disinfectant. Joyce vans thank you so much. We're going to be reading your piece in Time magazine and we greatly appreciate you coming on today. Everyone it's Willie guys. Thanks for listening now. Now I want to invite you to talk to us here at MSNBC. We'd like to know more about you. And the topics you'd be interested in hearing about as we look to launch new podcast. Just text podcast to six eight six six and we'll text you a link to a short survey again text. The word podcast two six six eight eight six six standard text messaging rates apply. Your input matters and we're looking forward to hearing from you.

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