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Silence of the Lambs with Emily Vanderwerff


Scripted and you don't it was on the show with uh-huh a census taker once. Tried to podcast me. I ate his pod with some cast beans and a nice podcast. You it started bad got worse forty fs. That's the Pete Holmes Joke you you sound like you were a snake I mean. Are you trying to hypnotize amounted to it was pretty good. It's the first. Is the top quote load said. I'm getting the impression poorly. Let's get it over with because it will happen more over the course the episode. I was trying to maybe Hof as we said the rare move of the. Clarissa reese into Hannibal you look like a rue the reverse Tomahawk right I mean actor-director doctrine lecter. Actually she a lot doctor. I can say this because because it's not for me to say but it puts the podcast on its skin. Yes no or else it gets the pod again. I was thinking about that. That's an even harder voice voice to do that theory fund try a nail but incredibly specific. Right it's a very unusual or yeah. Oh the edging into Denault Frio in men in Black Roy Truecar Walker to your friend of mine delivers a pet cat in. Isn't that weird that that performance didn't win all four acting categories should've went off and also director bug. Yeah there should be a best supporting bug. And then Vincent to know for your one that is crazy. How like that movie comes out? And everyone's like diaw offers great now. I mean it's not a real performance but he's great net and then likely even say that at the time I look didn't offer it gives a fun turn committed performance. People were like really hung up on. How gross it was twenty years later? Everyone kind of agrees like that's one of the best pieces of acting in the history of American cinema. That is one of the most committed full-body performances ever did you read the the The big oral history with Jerry Sonnenfeld. Yes it is incredible until he talked so much. The performance I'm Rick Baker well brick Baker is like releasing his by the time so comes out with eighteen months in advance but is doing the multi volume huma hardcover book of his entire career. And he's doing a panel near Comecon tomorrow when we're recording this if you want a time stamp when this is being recorded That is like he's doing his big career. Retrospective and off Rio is moderating. That sounds and I was like. That's very telling to me that like Rick Baker's like that's one of my great collaborations as Sonnenfeld to sleep in that thing. He said like he's doing Jack Huston. That's what Jag. Yes in Chinatown. What's on Infield realized when they filmed the pet cat that scene? It's what he said he literally. I love something here. Cat Cat go. I found out Jay Leno host of CNBC's he's Jay Leno's garage pucks. Bitter Jay Leno follows you when he like. DM To me was like I. I think it may have been a person who worked in his office. Imagine he runs his yeah he probably did something I Kevin you baby. Can I come on. I think are interesting. Pakistan recorded an episode of in like a year after I'd come out because he also dead name me and I was like. I'm sorry we haven't done that in the while by the way I go by emily. Now whoever runs runs the Jay Leno twitter calls like. I'm sorry I'm keep up with my life. Jay Leno at the fuck but you are going to restart. I think you're interesting now. Got It got us so I can have. And then I found out he like did a of podcasts. I think he was trying to do guerrilla marketing or whatever for his CNBC garage. Yeah 'cause he was Oh gee guerrilla for jail jeeves Jesse Thorn shows yeah some of the other. La Based interview podcasts. He was W T F and he did a very very normal psychologically logically balanced interview in which he explained that he has never been competitive and only did what anyone else would do in that position. Where are you come on jobs open? You'RE NOT GONNA hide in the closet and eavesdrop. I mean come on. I did the same thing anyone else would deal. He hasn't tweeted since August. Twenty eighth so not a big tweeter I guess and sometimes I get him. I'm Jay Leno like sitting in his bathroom like me. You're the only slid gift field into your. DM's remember remember when the Jay Leno show premiered when NBC's it's time and it was about time it was about time and Connie was believed the first guest and he you got Connie to like basically cry over like his Taylor swift and his mother and today thank you cover week one of that somebody cover week. I am the almost certain that you made me cover now Let's find out about trauma you on. What either you either I covered it or you asked and I couldn't do now because I know I can't find it? That is a thing I mean. I don't know if you folks watched the deleted scenes because the criterion DVD now has like forty five minutes of deleted scenes for this movie and one of them. Hannibal Lecter explains to Click Starling That the trauma the Buffalo Bill experienced as a child that turned him into a psychopath was having to recap the Jay Leno. Show for the AV club. I actually I was the one who wrote the first week. It feels like wrapping. You'd just be like yeah. Let me let me put this on my first yet. While I mean you know I was avoiding a bunch of Shit it but like that was my first fall as TV editor there. And I was like I'm going to review every new show and I was like shit that includes the Jay Leno show. I watched the first week of that. And then like and my my lead is like I really thought this could be interesting. I'm like what I mean. That was I mean every everyone was maybe okay. The blinders on there was selling a we're going to rethink it because it's not late night anymore. It's GONNA be prime time. We're going to do more sketches or do more comedy bits in no desk just the Thanou right. It was just the tonight show except there was no desk and there was like some cars on state there was at least two cars on stage right. They had more field reporters. Yeah like they had like six. Ross the interns. There is no desk and he ended it with the five big ones. Do you remember that. The final segment was Kim. Oh mess with him was once and you know they had the field reporter stay broke the Edward Snowden thing like in the last few months of the show broke Edward Snowden and then like yeah that was their their contribution attribution. NBC was like good work tonight. Show back. That's that's a citizen for is about. That's why Jay Leno has the Pulitzer so at this all right. Laura Cameron Whistle blower hardly know. We'll ringing the Bell Bell Bell and it's now close to many bits bits. The market is closed. Hello Everybody Griffin Davidson's playing check with Griffin David. Of course that's true. It's podcast about photography's directors massive success early on in their careers given a blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby sometimes they look like a rube. That's like a Rupe we're doing macer is on the films uh-huh Jonathan Demme his hold. Stop Making podcasts. And today we're discussing the the movie movie. The movie movie. I mean I was thinking I was like this. This is one of the best movies we will ever cover on the podcast. We could do this. PODCAST for twenty more years. That is correct and we will. We will never cover above single digits movies greater than US right. I think this is is the most influential movie you've ever covered safety the matrix say maybe like the Matrix or Star Wars but I certainly entrusted sure flach or right in terms of the things. Maybe you don't even realize the wind chill and then when you watch it you're like Oh of course this is all of television broadcasts ever yeah. Yeah ultra-compact I was watching this last night and gang stress out of being like. Oh Fuck. I'm like now reckoning with how big an episode this is. How big is that? We're we're going to cover this movie. It's also movie that I've seen many times and for a movie about a couple of serial killers who like to eat and or tear the flesh off uh-huh Huh it's extremely watchable and kind of comforting fast anytime throw it on like this is great kick. Can't wait for Clarissa stories to have another berry charge in emotional conversation with the psychic. I was looking worried. I wasn't going to like it as much this time for reasons. We'll probably dive into but also I've seen it so many times that I was like. Oh I just so too familiar to me because thrillers often you need elements of newness but like no. This movie is fucking great. I had seen this movie once before what I saw when I was in high school. Sorry for going. Yeah but but I saw this movie like fifteen years years ago loved it remembered it almost shot for shot remember. He was one of those things. I seriously. I have not watched this in fifteen years and every bit of this is like totally stuck vividly in my brain but it also is one of those movies were when I watched it when I was fifteen I watch probably cable fucking full screen or whatever right I was like well. I mean it's going to be diminished because like I've grown up in a post sounds the lambs climate. I had seen it only after Red Dragon and Hannibal and Hannibal rising has current on films. All three or four. But I was like this is a perfected. This is GonNa be one of those things where I see the movie and I appreciate it. But obviously it's lost some of its it's power because it's been parodied so much diminishing returns in the sequels and whatever and then I watched it and I was like this is fucking terrifying. It feels like it was made an hour ago. This is like a searing and it stuck in my brain for fifteen years and I watched it last night and I was like. Why don't I watch this every week? Aside from the fact it is heavy. I have the blue of the Craig tastic stick. Yeah Yes yes yes. I bought the blue the last time there is a criterion sale. Knowing the dummy was coming up it is a movie that benefits from extremely high quality picture. Cool and and I was. It's sort of like watching after this I not watching. I was going through a BLU ray review sites That we're comparing in every home video version of the movie and this will do the jump in quality on this blue is like it looks fucking credible any realize is that the previous like mgm releases were kind of crummy it is staggering. That this movie did not get an Oscar nomination for cinematography despite one of them Oscar success. I I know one of the most insane Oscar snubs considering that like the Prince of tides was nominated for best cinematography no offense to the Prince of tides. It is a fine but it is stunning when you go like. This is one of only three movies in history to win quote unquote the big five correct to win. Picture director actor actress screenplay sure and then it only had two additional nominations beyond that. Yeah that sounds right sounds moving. You're like every single element of this film. Film is so perfect and it's so like film school in a box for that respect of craft that you're like how did not get some attack. How did not get score? Incredible score how did not wean editing. How did not win sound? But the story of the sounds of limps is an Oscar. Movie is is like an it will never be replicated finance. It's very strange and hold old like two years ago you thought get out was going to have the silence of the lambs. Did I think it was GONNA win. GonNa win predicted on microphone and you were like. I think it's going to be the thing that unhappy with Johnston's came close. He came from one and Oscar was nominated for stuff and it was the same but also that was like an unprecedented incredible year for movies. It's got twenty seventeen. We'll say I think it lost editing. JFK Gift has famous editing that is fair and and JFK was the assumed best picture Juggernaut of that year it was. I think the most nominated. It was a huge success. Oliver over stone had already directed best picture had won two best director correct and It had come out in Christmas time. And it was. And it had a zillion famous people in it. And the cause. America's favorite movie star John F. Kennedy and Yeah had the cause and then I think that so that movie was like barreling towards expected success and the silence of the lambs came out. February right came out on Valentine's Valentine's Day and night of that year. I'm exactly the same as get out Right and I did really well. It would have but it was like a sleeper foam. was you know a trashy Jon. RAHM movie like to write paper right based on like horse on paper Johner they respect the least percent. Yeah and so. There's all that sort of county on against it and I think what happened was the JFK. Kinda got hobbled by the backlash of like is this for real. Oliver Stone is a crackpot like started thirtieth started bubbling. Yeah and then also Oliver Stone had like one Oscars already so it's not like there's some yeah and I think yeah it just it. Big Like silence became everyone was just like. Oh you know what it's really good. It was kind of like once. JFK got hobbled. This is emily vendor by the way to it because I was going to build a bridge to a point I want the cutting. No no no. You're in it. You're in it. Emily Vander worth from. Vox from the Munich episodes from Allison Wonderland episode. Thank you for recovering from Fodder wack and exposure Oh my God and rallying enough time it usually takes people that six to eight eight months I went through. I had to watch it once a day of course down to once a week. Now I'm down to once a month. Think Methadone tone through the looking glass clips like you can sort of start to to talk a little bit but I do think that when the Oscars Oscar's when JFK got got hobbled. They weren't GonNa go for. I think the nominees were bugsy and Prince of tides thing. We're going to go for those shares. Those were like didn't have the reviews so it was between silence. Silence of the lambs and beauty and the beast weirdly. Silence of the lambs is the more offscreen still fucking five. It's a great. That is insane the good five because bugsy is fun but she's down the middle and you know what I corrected It's not a genre but animation is the only type of film they respect less than a hundred percent. I I mean ed to leave the concept at the time was that its nomination was its reward. Here is a breakthrough nomination for an animated film right To director nominees. We're we're non picture directors even though both those phones probably should have been known for best picture. Can you tell them so doesn't get a picture nomination and it doesn't get it right crack. STREISAND doesn't get a fuss about correctly. Right direct itself. Okay so it's Demi but the recent strikes and didn't get a breast best actor actor nominations because of the two people who came in so the years nineteen ninety one nineteen ninety one years nineteen ninety-one two people come in one is the youngest best director. Nominee John singleton phenomenon right and the first African American nominee cranberry director correct the other directors. Six I think it was twenty four. That's God the other. Rip Johnson's the other is a guy who is a very established director. WHO's a big deal? who made a gigantic hit? That was a cultural phenomenon. I can't I believe it wasn't emanate for best picture. But he did get the best director nominees interesting and and has he had other director nominations or wins. There's is this like his warning of nominations. He's never won any nominations. Oh Fuck Thelma and Louise. Oh Louise wasn't nominated is bizarre weird. You're very weird. They had like they had to get the prince of tides in there. Like Thelma and Louise was like a sensation. Two lead actors which is insane right. I think that is so so difficult to pull off to actors in one shared League category so daring that people. Fuck with voicemail. Selena Davis is really supportive. Right we'll look prince of tides and Bugsy and JFK. To some extent. We're the movies ever was like. They're going to be the big Oscar players. Everything that that happens where it's like months in advance right and then they kinda slid in and like silence of the lambs. Was the movie people actually love movie. I think at the end of the day was like you know what right I remember that movie. It was a year ago now and I still remember it but also it is that thing where like you know. We'll get into all the integrity of the movie. And we'll talk about the controversies and all of that But just taken as a piece of narrative visual storytelling. It is pretty. Unimpeachable is dark dark and profound and full of really interesting themes which are from the book some of which are original to the movie. But it's also great popcorn filmmaking washable right so thoroughly watchable I'm just going to restate. You can take any single element from this film and use it as a teaching tool of like. This is how you do this. This is screen acting screenwriting cinematography. This is editing sound. Mix It you know. This is set design. Just yeah the cost of like everything is just like I mean and I forgot fucking house taxes where it's like bright like Demi like discovers like Colleen Atwood you know like makes her Casey Lemons Lemons in it right right right. Kristie Zia's the production designer. Like everyone on this is just like people who are like just fully coming into to their power that thing. That is so excited to watch like everyone involved in. This movie is just figuring out how to do the first perfect job of their career. It's it's pretty like it. It does feel that lightning in a bottle thing. And the way that we've been like going through Damian order like this it is so exciting to watch like oh he's just built it all up sure and you look. This movie could have been directed by Ridley Scott or someone and it would be a different movie probably more of a hard boiled movie and it would not not have that like empathy and attention to character. The Damn like this is like demis. Got All these tools that I feel like a director. Another director would not have been able to handle movie. I have I have this. I'd love to hear you weigh in on this Griffin. I have this sort of pet theory. That people who are really good at comedy are usually really good at horror horror. I agree one hundred percent vice versa. I grew one hundred percent for them. Pugh yes Jordan appeal but I also think it is one of the reasons why enlarge many of the best Superhero movies have come from horror directors. I think it is that very specific. Sort of tonal. Balancing Act. You know. She's Zam Zam The Rainy Spiderman Films James Won- has acquitted himself. Well the man Yes yes but I think you know superhero films. Are this very tricky. Balancing Act of of tone and control and a mix of humor and tension action all of that. But that's yes. The comedy and horror are the two genres where the director needs to have complete control control of the dial and know how to sort of turn it on the audience. Because you're asking the audience to have very specific emotional involuntary on Terry reaction on scene by scene basis. So it's about that build and release and that sort of like got the fucking camera work in this movie. I mean not just like we're talking about photography itself but you just like this is just mute. This film you could just teach an entire semester film school. That is this film unit every week. You just watch it. And it's like his camera is sodium shots but also all the camera movements are so expressive without being overly showy. The Look of the film I mean I feel like this is the fundamental mistake. That really Scott made where he's like. Oh we should make it look terrified because Hannibal Lecter terrifying and the thing. That's incredible that this movie is it. Looks kind of been out. Oh sure yeah very Chris. It's about real people. Not Very stylized picturesque. Yes one hundred percent. I do think the problem with Hannibal is one. That book is so gothic garbage right like purple right and Demi famously of course reads book and his out into this. All right so enjoy foster. Says the same and Anthony Hopkins is like twenty five million dollars in the bank account. allred right Gotcha. So the book is already nudging things direction but yeah and also the book has the problem of like Hannibal is very effective when he's in prison guess and is a little less effective when he's just the the Italian person right but if I if the TV show eventually figured out how to. But that's that's a cage Hannibal way too because he's trying to operate at that show when they finally had him. He's three when he was finally on the loose and everyone knew his secret. And all of that yes. That was that Fisher's thing section of the shows when it's at its least. Yeah and it's also when they were like I don't know every shot should look like a kaleidoscope like when they start being like let's make the show just look so crazy battles sort of you know sustain eighteen the mood I feel like I've never acknowledged on the podcast that I feel like a- psychiatrist who of course is true and for that reason this movie representation. Exactly thank you get it going. So what's emily. This was the bridge I was GONNA make in order to introduce you but it took me thirty minutes of talks the bridge but but I was last night while watching the movie. curious to see because You know as you said Since last year on this podcast you have come out and transitioned and yes and you very early onset to us. You would like to talk about this movie because you know that is the sort of messy part of this film's legacy is its relationship up to the Trans Community got so I was curious going into it to see if you had tweeted about this film Prior to your coming out because you have written so well in the last last year about sort of the years of you. Living sort of in denial with suppressing the voice. Inside of you the part of you that new to some degree always who were and that in the last year it sort of been letting yourself actually the person does just always doing everything all all over the place right now And you're you're writing on. The subject has been incredible. Thank you But I was interested to try to find You know if if you had public statements about this film on Twitter before you know this year And a lot of are the things. Like I can't believe that didn't get us in Mottaki denomination when when Demi past tweeting about Hams. He's one of my favorite filmmakers right. So that's what I was finding more and more. Just you talked about him being one of your favorite filmmakers but also. I've forgotten that you were one of the loudest drum bangers during March madness. Oh yeah you were huge fucking on Demi train it. It always on the train. I was like he's Never GonNa win. And then he kept going to do the search David because there are literally like eighty tweets are four separate threads. That are emily just like hardcore hardcore campaigning. Making the argument watching it like vote by vote saying like I know he's not GonNa make it past this. I like this one though. I think Don Jonathan Demme should direct the halftime show Knicks this year. It's a good tweet. That's a great one. I was just thinking about you. Know How they kept trying to make that gambit movie for years and years. Jonathan Demme directed the hell out again but movie Louisiana Collar Local Cajun. Yeah it would have been like his last film when he would have been his. You guys went from Ricky in the Flash Gambit right pass if Dan had met its original release date and they had hired Jonathan Demme. It would have been his last film. He would've gotten a made under the wire. Yeah but I am curious. I mean you know you saying you were a little bit worried going into your viewing of this movie. How you were going to view it through a new lands? How did it sort of change for you or did it? Not as much as you feared or thought it might. I will admit that some of the some of the it's not even like Trans Representation because it's it's a different idea of what gender transition could mean. Yeah and the movie makes that very clear which I had forgot movie has dialogue. Yeah hopefully from Dr Hannibal Lecter who has a psychiatrist uh-huh and a PhD needing people right. I forgot that the from an underground universe. The film has the most intelligent character. Even if he is a pure psychopath cannibal psychopath clear. Say He is not a transsexual. Yes right that it's more like he. He he thinks that's what's going on with him but it's more He's crazy and wants to. It's a sort of rice. He wants to sort of be out of his own skin but at the same time. I'm going to have more to say about this. I'm sure throughout the episode. At the same time it flirts with all this iconography transpeople of transition in ways that like made me uncomfortable a little bit. Here's where I think this succeeds in the way that a lot of other trans murderers is this. A trope have not succeeded. Which is Jonathan Demme's such humane director? Yeah he gives buffalo bill his humanity diseased horrible humanity been. He is a person. He is not a twisted boogeyman. It's actually kind hindmost. Factors the thing that got the movie in trouble in a way is that he has those segments that are just buffalo bill and those of the segments that I feel like people obviously glommed onto the house and if he had just kind of like you know excise that yeah and whatever bills just not really character except something that someone talk people talk about out then maybe the movie would be worse but also regarded differently. I don't know well I don't WanNa be Flynn about it but the thing that was striking me watching it especially because I had forgotten that they outline language so clearly and sort of consistently trying to define like this is not a transsexual. We're not saying there's even that line where she says like transexuals are are docile passing you know but like they very clearly say like Nice fast a behavioral patterns So the movie goes to lengths to try to make that distinction clear but the thing that is sort of out of the movies control is the fact that it became such a phenomenon. The thing right right like I don't think the movie would have had that amount of blowback. Had it been like a forty million dollar sort of like you. You know on the level of like man hunter in terms of critical recognition. But the fact that it became like this big blockbuster phenomenon and then a best picture winner means that like well now you have a lot of dumb people washer. There's a difference once ability to write the whole thing like comes into play with like the Destroying culture once and for all. Is that like you're in a very different position. If you're making a movie for sixty million dollars that you know is going to be released like a blockbuster versus movie movie like this where clearly no one involved thought that this was going to be some like but ore Quadra me to the point that Dila Rentis who owned the rights fucked and had it may manhunter whistling. Yeah don't care advice. Don't make Hannibal Lecter movies hit until RENTA's was like I've always owned. Hannibal writes in their mind. I WANNA be clear. We're recording this before it comes out coming out long. Answered nation has taken four day. Thursday night previews or whatever for New York City Burns to the ground also like around the impeachment and the fact that trump is tweeting about. How militias going to rise up and it's just like it's truly a terrorist militias are being installed at theaters playing? I also feel like every other president. You'll hear that they like you know asked asked requested a film print wanted to watch movies from seems so disinterested in everything. I don't think he's watched a single like film. Well he famously like has a short attention span like like his favorite movie is blood sport with the dialogue. Cut Out or whatever there was that weird anecdote it was like. It's blood sport but eric fast forward through the nonviolent speed. No He's favoring. His favorite movie is assistant came. Because it's about a very very wealthy man beautiful women it's a great life and right lived long interview where he says that right. I mean he's just like it's incredible. The things that guy accomplish list I wrote about I wrote about it for vox in the summer. Of Two Thousand Fifteen. Yeah he was still like a curiosity and I was like Oh look at this. Isn't this weird and there's fuck look on ironic person. I mean this sort of gets into the silence of the lambs thing where it's like someone that dumb can watch Citizen Kane and go like this is an aspirational story of the American dream. Home and ascending to power success and love and adoration when it's very cleared the film presents him as a villain and is about how he died feeling totally empty inside and so in the same way that lambs comes out and it doesn't matter if you have characters go like this character is not Trans Trans People. Do not behave this way. This is not a pattern because it's still like the dumbest people view. It how they want to and then as you said so much of it. Is that the ICONOGRAPHY of this character gets reappropriated into other things like you think. About how many homophobic ninety the studio comedies make Buffalo Bill Jokes to some extent or another. It's also just wild this film. which has her starling? Incredibly kind of character Hannibal Lecter and craft also has buffalo bill three becomes incredibly. I kind of character. Yeah in his own right three characters that like you can dress up like them or you can let you. You can do relevant yeah. It is so bizarre We'll secures a question for you when you saw this movie A when it came out when you saw this moving the year sense as you've watched it. How did those elements play to you in a point in your life where you were sort of? I've fighting your own transnet interesting. I saw the first time I saw. This is probably high school and the controversy around. This movie had filtered down to me as just like gay. People are mad at yes more of just a general. LGBT considered so you saw it knowing there was like I knew because I knew I think the first dummy movie I ever saw Philadelphia. Okay should I knew that he had made that. Okay 'cause people he was like I WanNa make a movie that has positive presentation right so you saw post Philadelphia. Yeah I saw it. Probably Ninety six ninety seven with a girlfriend or whatever and like that was at a time when I was not aware of the things within myself but I was also like any time I read a thing where like somebody magically transformed into a woman I was like. Let's see how to search or choose. Choose somewhere sure So I watched this unlike but I just I think I really thought of him as a gay man. I really do because those two things got inflated. 'cause I remember in high school. I spent a lot of time being like. I think I'm gay. I'm gay just man. I don't think they're very attractive. And that's a prerequisite eropean right. They knew there's David Right. I don't know David train stalled. I gotTA get some cold. But yes so I was like I. I didn't understand what it meant to be gay and like there was this idea that like gayness and transit were kind of the same general otherness. Yeah right yeah so like the fact that I was primarily attracted to women was just like a thing that got in the way of me figuring this out so I think when I I thought I really didn't know and I'm you watched it maybe four or five years ago and I was like. Oh yeah okay but I also was like less offended by it than I thought I was going to be every. Watch it the this guy hi. It's not the worst example of this trope. It's because one of the better examples of destroyed because Demi is such an empathetic filmmaker like you said you know really cardamon murderers litterers like we can be murderers if we want to wait knife away. Tabora anything. Box of Malt called WHO's the door? WHO's at the door okay? No I don't know let me get it Crea- Hello David remember me are are you Dr. Han Hans Yeah Yeah I mean I've seen senior films very much enjoyed them. I have a problem David with your problem Dr PhD or an MD you're an MD.. And both David the problem is as you know. I'm a man on the lamb. That's right you'RE A. You're constantly moving from location location. Stay ahead of the law can have a cell phone. Can't have people pigmy towers. Sure Satellite Tower. So I need to send letters right. You got to keep in touch the old fashioned way. David has a problem only one taste. I love more than human flesh. It's the taste ace of stamps. You look well. The problem is I started liking in the night. truitt sure I eat it whole David. I understand what the anti so the problem is. My letters. Never get sent. Well what if rather than the old fashioned livable stamp at disgusting blue. That gets my heart. All Florida You could go to stamps. Dot Com Yeah which can do anything at the post office right at your computer six Plus give you big discounts on posted. I love my discounts beyond the at you can print let official postage official. US postage twenty four seven for any letter package any class of male anywhere. You want to send it well. I hate the taste of printing right. So you're perfectly perfectly down on that and looking for a stamp that is not too delicious to prevent me from using it for more complicated premise in the world but straight right lock David Stamps. Dot Com brings all the services that the US Postal Service right your computer so you can small office ending on invoices. Maybe maybe an online seller. You're like us who ships out some products. Maybe you're warehousing thousands of packages a day. Maybe you're a renowned psychiatrist WHO's gotten a little in trouble with the Law David. Why are you so irritated by? I'm you doing pets. It seems like there are some unprocessed trauma in your past to host a podcast with someone who drives you crazy doing well. How about this is a deal David? I'll give your listeners. An exclusive off Okay if you tell me a little bit about yourself okay Yeah no it's just Well I feel bad because I was actually fifteen minutes late today but usually he's fifteen minutes late to everything. How interesting you sound like the unprofessional? Look I just WanNa say that with stamps dot com. You can get five cents off every first class stamp enough to forty percent off priority mail. That's an brain in your time and money. It's no wonder however seven hundred thousand. Small businesses already used DOT com. Are you from fellow paraded doctrines. We'll see I haven't asked. Yeah alone out. David you fulfill your end of the bargain off until mine information a call to action if you will go have a mandatory section. I want your listeners. To come for the resolution they can actually keep this year to stop going to the post office. Stop eating stamps stamps. And rather printing them out from home so what I want them to do is go to stamps. Dot Com Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in check back at stems dot Com Promo code check. David I understand. Never go to the post office against him stuck dumb no but but it is. I mean you know I think that comes into play. Obviously with the Buffalo Bill Care he could not control the way. The movie sort would've got taken away from him and given to the culture at large in the way. We're like. Yeah I I think a lot of the impressions I think about. How many fucking like Buffalo? Oh bill impressions are like problematic. You know we're like scenes where people do the talk or whatever it is like the elements from this have been stripped and and sort of repurpose in a way that does feel negative like the really bad version of this is the Danish girl. Literate re-appropriate is a lot of this imaging in a way it thinks is supportive and his horribly horribly dry so I could not stop thinking about the Danish girl watching this really interesting not thought about the Danish girl again because I took a serious psychological ecological action to borrow it from my like re closeted me like I saw I saw came out. I was at vox so I was finally like had had a little security and I was like thinking about this gender stem. Danish girl was like Nope. Nope just like well no. It's not this whatever this is. Yeah Yeah Yeah. That's such a terrible movie. That's why I was thinking. Because that's like the most sort of consciously Oscar bady sort of movie and a movie that is going to such great pains to tell itself that it's being empathetic and and humanist and sort of thoughtful and caring about it and that it just seems to have no insight into its characters no understanding fuels genuinely very exploitative and Harry representative everything I've heard from any transfers. I've ever spoken to or read work from anything and also performances terror. It is so fucking bad it is really is really hard to be and understand what is to be transferred to a gap and I wrote a lot I wrote about I guess right. Allie a lot about Jeffrey tambor. I think he got close. Yeah for what a Monster Person He. Yes I think he got close but he's still was like there was an element of I am copying thing other people don't which is active is acting sure acting the problem. Is that acting so close to what society thinks. Trans people are doing that then it becomes like. Oh you're just you know you're jared leto Dallas buyers club. Yeah I was just like here's the thing I was thinking of When I like I dropped out of college was auditioning for stuff I had law and order. SVU audition that was is to play a trans girl. Were only seeing you know SIS Mensur to play the role and there was like fifteen sentences. Any email devoted voted to like we want to be cleared. The character is not gay. It is not a cross dresser and they were like people are like reading the sides and not getting adding it because the concept was sort of like in the media up until that point so often just as you said presented presented as Odysseus someone playing a woman You know that there wasn't really empathetic. No well rounded trans characters in media and that people were coming in for the audition and going like. Oh it's like a drag Queen Right. Yeah right right even when you see like Felicity Huffman and Transamerica. WHO's okay okay? Okay so like a real focus on like Oh. She's got a penis lights you know. It's it's a fetishistic Gawker thing that Demi just because of the nature of the kind of filmmaker his I don't think he had special insight into transgender people or gay people or anything. I think that he just like understood. Understood that Buffalo Bill was in pain. Buffalo Bill wanted something other than what he was. Buffalo Bill could not transcend himself like right. He depicted that and he got. I don't WanNa say he got closer to picking their turns experience because he didn't but he got like he got an element of it in a really weird and twisted way. I think yeah I think you you know as you're saying the baseline empathy from what she always operates gives him a major leg up. You know and that's something you can't really like develop in the way you can develop your skills as a visual filmmaker. He was born with you know by all accounts a greater sort of pool a greater depth of emotional emotional sort of understanding than most people So that's you know really his special sauce as a director as that he comes into it with that strength as a person. But I think the other element Allman is when you read interviews with Demi as I've been reading more and more stuff for this podcast and watching interviews with him and stop. I want to listen to commentary for got to him. It's him and fos heroin monster and the FBI guy and Hopkins Unh- five of them. Yeah but he is for you. Know the people who were viewed as like major kind of like. Oh tourist filmmakers certainly the people who have won the Oscar. Most of the people we've covered on this podcast. He might have the least ego of all of them were hat and he talks openly about like I hire people who know what they're doing better than I do. I I give them a lot of free reign. You know if I hire some efforts because I know I'm not a some offer. I'm not trying to impose my thoughts on that on collaborative but like if someone's doing something good I want them to take all the credit for it and I think you know by an extension of that. He is very good or was very good at knowing what he didn't know an understanding what he could not inherently understand so that he could handle elements over to other people and not. Just try to sort of You you know impress his perception of things over the entire film one of the complaints against Demi in the march madness in the in the read it and I think I think Alex Ross Perry made this argument is that he doesn't have a big footprint. Yes I am. I think he doesn't have a signature like shot. He doesn't have a signature shooting style style the close up. I think that the carrier has signature. I think the close ups feed into his signature approach as all of his movies are about the transactional transactional nature of human relationships. And he understands that every scene is between two people. And it's about who's giving who's taking share and who's getting and who's you know. I mean this his masterpiece in that regard that he realizes this is a horror movie. But it's a horror movie about the banality of like horror like how it's just horrors always just two people in one stabbing stopping somebody. If I can quote you to you and read a couple of tweets firming earlier this year when you were Banging the drum In this was directly in response to this right You're pointing out like you know people saying he doesn't fit ends a blank check through actor he feels so terribly about the LGBT pushback tons lambs he commits a studio sued fund. The first major studio phone about the crisis ended wins. Tom Hanks and Oscar. And it's a hit Philadelphia. Imperfect Blank Check Clears airtight hurts. Human there right yes but then as you sort of sit here what signature. What makes him interesting? Demi is one of the most radically humane empathetic directors who have ever lived. He loves humans and the Shit we do in all our strength and all or weaknesses de Music Director. Who whenever whatever he tried he could do it? Music videos documentaries features TV pilots live TV. He just thought people are fascinating and may great art accordingly it is very appropriate. PTA The DNA splice of deming. Altman loves now. I think that's a really other strong point when people talk about like. Why doesn't have a signature style which I disagree with a little bit not disagreeing with you but the people who say that it's not it's not a scorsese style? It's not showing well. I think that's the big point is that it's not that he was a chameleon who adapted to whatever he was doing but he tried to engage with the material I as a human And then figured out the style that the best benefited the story being told in the most sort of emotionally intelligent way possible. Look it's on the lambs which is very stylish in a lot of ways but also compared to most crime I most movies of this ilk feels so stripped down and almost neorealist. Yes in fact. But there is a lot of crazy heightened elements in terms of the actual filmmaking of what he's doing but it's like he's meeting he never for has a camera movement that isn't entirely motivated of his camera. Movements though you know and it's just like this really fucking elegant magician where it's like I'm just GonNa Bring Your is right over to the thing that you need to pay attention to right at this. His camera movements in this movie are always. I don't WanNa look at this thing but I have to leave. Thanks back and then it goes and you can feel the tension in the sort of I mean. It's a lot of handheld movements you know. And they're fairly smooth. But you can feel the actual physical presence of person reluctantly words swinging around to me. It's also has like one of the most iconic five the most this shot of her in the elevator that opening very right at the opening surrounded by the boys. And she's very she's a short person. jodie foster cost very little The like the shot of any shot of a Hannibal leaning in and when you see him in the reflected in the glass and everything like like. But that's like another thing. That's kind of stunning about this movie that I was like. Am I gonNa Roll my eyes a little bit watching it now. which is it has now become such big thing for a straight white male all directors to make movies about the way that women are impressed oppressed within society? Sure did you like look I get it and very often even if there are tensions are correct. It's like they put their foot on the gas way to heart. You know and this is a movie. Where like every single scene is affected by the fact that she's a woman but it's almost almost always affected in terms of body language or in terms of blocking it is very rarely directly stated in the tax of the script this whole movie it's theme is again transactional relationships between men and women and never says anything about it? Yes just like this is a movie about what it is to be a little rain right in this world. I love in her relationship with the Scott. Glen Character in the book is sexual in the book. They have more of like an affair and he takes that out out of the movie or I don't know if humor Ted. Tally decided to do that. But that's not in this movie but like no they neither of them ever acknowledged where he I mean. There's that one scene where he kind of acknowledges is like yes I'm using you to excite lecter because I know you will and like most of my guys he would just shut down and says that you're pretty in a way where he will at least give you the time of but she has a speech where she's like you use me. which like you know like so many movies would have that moment where she sort of like wag her finger in his Nelson? What are you going to do? The only only other moment that makes it explicit is the moment when they're in the car driving back after they do the autopsy and Scott Glenn's like taking a nap and then he wakes up in in his like. I really upset you back there when I said the thing about us. Not Discussing in front of women right and she was again. He's like you understand just had to throw these guys off. I sent and she was like it matters what you say. He's he's he's great. I mean she's amazing. But like what a perfect seen what a great encapsulation of Dami which is like it matters what you say. Like in a in an era era where You know people get so defensive when their work is criticized Demi took these sort of the complaints about sons. The lamb was like I'm GonNa make an entire movie to try to positively counter of the effects his of what this might have done in terms of LGBT perception his conclusion from this was he wasn't ashamed Buffalo Bill. He didn't think of buffalo bills like in a Gay Trans Ray sexual whatever but he was like. I didn't realize how many how few positive representations gay people there aren't GonNa make one right like what dude I I did well like you talking So I watched this movie a lot when after I I saw it and like I when I sort of when I was coming out I used to watch the matrix a lot. I wonder if that was anything so when I was watching this last night and it was as a matter of fact when I was watching the suspect it was. I watched this a lot that I feel something for buffalo bills. No no I when I saw cleese I was like Oh this is how I perceive the world but of course I didn't fucking know that I was like yeah team but it was just like oh I get this. Yeah I get get how she sees the world how she interacts with it. Yeah and how the world interacts with her I mean the movie is so good at like anytime she he walks into a room without overstating it without cutting to a bunch of closed subset having dialogue and making too much of a meal out of it really showing the way the temperature of the room changes whether it's because these guys are sexually attracted to hers or whether it's visibly is like like. She seems unqualified right. They think she's at risk. They're intimidated by her. Whatever it is every scene is people in some way being affected by the fact that she seems so outside of the person who is usually doing this job? You guys talked about foster on this. Show 'cause this is like she goes hard enough. Israel hovered a foster before possibly never covered. I feel like we haven't I don't believe so talked about Let's take a quick look at her photography. We know we've not I mean and it's crazy because this is her second Oscar. Yes you know and someone where like the first Oscar was like. Oh that's nice she graduated. She's not child star anymore but also is it was somewhat of a surprise. She was pretty young winner. And Yeah Yeah and then just three years later. She wins a second Oscar because it's kind of like undeniable. Yeah I mean like I don't like hanks's performance in forrest Gump. And but he won the Oscar and on the Oscar because people were like well. I mean that movie him he has is to win even though he just want. Sometimes those multiple winners I mean. Yeah Kevin Spacey being another one. Where like you're kind of like? Why the fuck did he win? He just one like right and it was was just at the time people were like well. That's he has to win. Some weird over right is the best picture of the year. It is entirely based around the green book thing kind of like. Yeah yeah I mean w everyone who voted for best picture then has to by extension. Think that's the best performance of and it's not a showy performance. It is not known. Oh you know Jodi Jodi like it is not the kind of performance that usually wins best actor now because usually best actress screaming and places one hundred percent. Yeah yes because most most of the movie is all her in extreme closeup trying to show his little emotion as possible right now trying to sell steely to whoever she's talking to a hundred percent percent and it says close ups. That are her friend she can do the flicker of an is little trembles in her voice and in her face and all that I mean obviously she has like one of the Great Oscar monologues or exchange the silence of the lambs model. You know the that is anyone would remember that coming out of the movie but it's not a big yellow performance but also yes that's it it's a big monologue on paper that is like Oh man this is a homerun. Oscar Oscar nominations slam dunk sure but Ninety nine out of one hundred people would have gone much bigger with monologue. Yes in one thousand nine hundred actor directors would have demanded right covered into different way. Something right I don't know right. I mean she's really recounting it as sort of like did absolute trauma and you know I mean. She's also found this thing right very quickly. which is his skill right Crawford? Immediate warning is like don't let him in your head Ed and he's like yeah. I found the box. Let's open the box and she's like no. I don't WanNA open that box. I WanNa do this thing. It's like Open this box. Oh Hannibal Lecter. What had a field day with told me? I mean that's the thing I mean he's like obviously Hannibal. Lecter spoiler alert does like people them up. No get into it but he he is. Also there's the thing right and the COP is talking about Buffalo Bill when he talks about like is he a vampire but like that's what Hannibal he's like. A vampire wants to eat your feelings. He loves it like his favorite thing if he thinks. You're like a Gauche. You know idiot like Chilton or whatever he has like like no use for you he just wants to like. Eat your body right. But like if you're like clarisse he's like I wanna like open up your brain like your emotion. Well they also like everyone warns warns her like you know this is the thing he's GonNa do. Don't give an answer. Gets inside your head. You're fucked right and they sell it as like a he will weaponize it in some way he will. I use it to destroy your get himself out of prisoner whatever. It is weirdly though he's a mentor. And that's what this relation to Alad. Right is what makes it so great but I also think the the thing is. He misses getting to do his job. Sure it'd be like I forget head chef. That's the biggest thing. Yeah Butcher even. Yeah because the books make this clear and then the show. Oh made it very clear. It's like he eats. People he thinks are rude. He doesn't like great rudeness. And then you can eat you up right the people that like to sort of gain. They're like he'll eat other killers others things that cannibalism got in the way his psychiatry curry will Graham or whoever like. He's not necessarily like I want to eat. You like yeah he wants wants to Utterly Dismantle Will Graham in the show it's very explicit homoerotic thing if I can get you to fall in love with me then you will just totally like the tumbler exploded. Yeah yes but that's like you know I. I guess I'm trying to say is psychiatry. Him Isn't a cover is not a means to an end sprint. I think he genuinely gets off on the fact that he is this fucking good at it and the worst punishment for him in terms of being in prison is that he doesn't have access access to people he can pull apart that way and the thing with buffalo bill is like he's like I know that guy he's he's lame like right right you know. He thinks he's this mmediately. Figured him out and like that he was no fun right. Anthony held his boring to him. Anthony is just. He's I wanna eat you up because your awful right right. Clarice is is a Gauche crass man Reich which he hates right clarice is for the first time in a long time him having someone who can really you sure on no pun intended like this is an interesting psychological. You intended that I was shouldn't that fung was even attending intended and I attended no but it's like for him. I mean I think the quid pro quo thing is literally like I need to get something out of this and what I want to get out of. It is is like let me play my favorite sport again right but let me do a couple rounds in the batting cage. I can't figure you out. You're interesting the elements. Don't line up your four foot eleven. You sound like Holly Hunter. You're you're still in training. They sent you here and you seem to be a lot of emotional train right. Yeah because you're also not playing hard s with me. You're not trying to be a man not trying to be a ball buster. What's your fucking deal? How did you end up here in Red Dragon Slash manhunter? It's like about that you know we're at the tail end of his relationship with a law enforcement guy and so like when We'll goes to see him He's Oh it's almost like old boyfriends right. He's like that's the same awful Cologne and will is clearly uncomfortable. Because it's like yeah we did we. We did the whole thing. We like sucked each other dry like no. Yeah we'll is like the TV show that he's been watching for years and years and still watches out of obligation allegation. But he's pretty much like gotten all the narrative juice he's going to get out of that thing. Clarisse is like you imagine the first interesting person he's been able to have extended conversations with look. We all love Frankie phase on great. Yes very charming in this movie. Yes but You know there's only so much conversation they're having I guess you know it's a fad loved. This movie does almost every actor with more than three lines is billed in the opening credits. Yes Oh great opening credits to font. Can I get a t shirt with. Would that font on it. You know the black letters. The white borders you react. I saw I saw Chris. Isaac there is like wait. Chris is six and this and his character name is literally like. FBI team Leah. I SWAT commander Van Bargain. Donovan Bargain Roger. cormon is in this moving the FBI director he does. Obviously you have like a classic Demi guys like Charles Napier and Tracey Walter and what. What's the guy? Dick Miller the guy who's in the funeral director was that Guy Tracy Walters. That goes Bob the goon and Batman Oh well I get faces mixed okay. This this is Dick Miller is in this right. I don't know if he's in something else such okay different Demi none of different okay. Yeah I I just I love that I love a movie that like loves its actors enough That it's like these people deserve opening credits. And he's an actor actor director actors love to work with us and like he gets great fucking casts from from nineteen eighty to nineteen ninety-one. He only has one film that does not get getting acting nomination and he gets four wins. Four wins if you're including this. He gets four acting wins. It's Tom Hanks Oh you oh you mean over his career. Yeah I'm saying right so that's pretty crazy that it's like for a decade. He only makes one film. That doesn't get an acting nomination and it should've it should've gotten fucking reacting nominations. That's your favorite phone. Believe right is your favorite. So that's your number one. Yeah it is crazy. That like Liotta didn't get nominated for that Griffin cannot donate for that we'll have already dove watch we will have given Yes but yes he. He was such an actor's director and was such an actress friend. And I feel like the Demi close up thing is like when people see movies that have close ups. It's this good. I think the first thing while this movies well shot and then they think oh. Wow these actors are good that they can hold close up as well and the thing they don't think about is is especially if it's like first person. Pov that is very very vulnerable thing to ask an actor to do. It is incredibly unnatural to do a scene where you are staring at the camera rather than your scene partner. More even stirring. You're seeing partnered with the cameras right next to their face. Yeah it is super fucking uncomfortable uncomfortable and unnatural. It kills the reality of what you're doing so often you're trying to be aware of where the camera is but kind of ignore it and not look at it and in order to get that down. which like you know? Barry Jenkins is the parent who has nail that in the modern day. Yes it's there's a reason why those guys are known for their sense sense of empathy and their love of actors protection of actors and of the process and all of that because in order to make those shots were used to create a very specific kind of environment. Yes in that level of trust I I asked Barry about it when I interviewed him and he talked about. How like the street? Kiki never been in a movie before. And you're out and so she right now but she was less disturbed by it. Oh it's like she was not really used to like movie i. She didn't have to like untrained herself. Right whereas like Stefan James Seems like this. The other actors were more like it's unsettled by that. Like looking right into which like both of those directors use those shots to convey very specific emotions Russians and place you in those moments so like in Sansa lands. It's almost always someone feeling terror at what they're watching and they're having to play it against a lens. Yeah you know. That's a tough thing to do. I think what this movie understands is that to be inquiries his point of view. You can never literally be in her point of view. Yes like The famous of course the famous shot and they last sequence when buffalo bills like reaching out to her. And it's just like you become her in that moment because you understand her as like an object of what he wants yeah similarly to how when we see her from Hannibal's point of view This is the thing I read. He like he said he never had her. Look at the camera. Because is there. She's always like five degrees whereas when you look at it Hannibal he's looking at the camera. Strap orients you in what she sees totally. So it's it's a fascinating way of tricking you into having her point of view without really doing her point of view. He was a very very intuitive filmmaker. Because you look like the the sort of like visual language on display in. This movie is insane and so fucking complicated and so risk. And you're like this should not work. You should not be able to cover scenes in this way. Okay but you get the sense. that he sort of grappled onto every scene every lifestyle every shot. And what's the best way to convey this and he always always had a really good understanding of what this was his analysis of what he was trying to get out was really good and this is like the movie were just totally Kolesas and he just figures out like when do you need to be in her shoes when you do need to be seen her through someone else's eyes and you know It's always the right decision and it's always to the right degree and I think it speaks to his another one of his strengths. The idea of collaboration is he saw. How much Jodi foster wanted to be in this movie? She was not his first choice. His fifth choice if she wants to do it this this badly probably got something. Let's do some context. Thank you for queuing that up this book. They put him on mediate. Yeah and it was a big right cookbook. It's a great book. David Foster Wallace called basically the best American novel of the decade. Just thought he's obsessed with it and read constantly. Come out. After manhunt gets released. The move comes a couple of years after manhunter manhunter. Obviously we covered it on this kind of went. Nowhere was not a big hit Orion pictures which by the time this movie came out was basically defunct song right off the film with Gene Hackman. Who is going to direct it? That's that's crazy. You didn't know that Hackman. I think wanted to play Jack Crawford and directed that was take. That's so telling for like a movie star that points critical like we'll Crawford's the hero of the move Hannibal Lecter because that's the monster. Maybe he just thought I don't right now but also when you read the book and of course people point out like Hannibal's not in a ton of the movie Even though he is totally illegal. And it's indisputable. I will get into this. Please remind me to get into this later. Okay do you disagree with me. No I agree with you but I came with fucking stack. Good thank you because I work the status wrong status status Ross hellishly wrong and it's been repeated endless status wrong. We'll circle back around sir. But I broke my fucking numbers I did the fucking world. Everyone's wrong everyone is. It's one of those. Yeah the screen time. Things is people clicking whenever they're actually so we'll get to it so hackman wants to make the movie de Laurente ever direct a movie. I don't think so. So I mean and he is a legend and do stand. He's a legend Mr Way right exactly we stand up gene. How have you seen his diners drive? INS and dives performance no guy yet. Good season is like two thousand eight or something that he goes to a place in Santa Fe. He's like sitting talking to the customers. One of them is gene Hackman. It is not entirely clear. That Guy Fieri knows shirt. Gene Hackman obviously signed right. Gene in happens like Like the breakfast here it says I believe on GPA. His last credit would be his most recent might go his gray. Green people don't know about like yeah. There's a if you look on Youtube. Gene heartland diners drive INS drives. That is incredible. Okay they bring being in. Ted Tally to write. The adaptation to tally was not a big screen writer at the time. But whatever I don't know He wrote like White Palace Palace. I Dunno and he writes the script and Hackman is like this is too violent. WanNa make this and withdraws which love love Eugene but what the fuck like. You didn't see this coming. Whatever it doesn't matter the funding falls through Orion instead of like giving up is like now? Now this is interesting. The script is interesting. Let's find another director they get Demi region is like this is great. I'll do it and it just after that. It's like rapid they just they just go. Because you'll read interviews with Demi collaborators and by and large in the Demi camp at that time people were like Jonathan. Why the fucker you making this smoothie right right well because the script isn't good but they were like this seems off? This is been building in your career. You don't seem like someone who wants to spend this much time in darkness that's right. You know he goes to least successful movies from crave standpoint up until that point in time are the two that are throat last embrace and end the fighting mad right yeah so he goes to Michelle Pfeiffer who he just worked with. Jodie foster is like I want to do it. And he's like I'm going to talk to Michelle. Who just you know did marry with the mob with married to the mob? She turns it down. Didn't like the subject matter. She does say it was a difficult decision. Sure He went to Meg Ryan. Who turned down to violent went to Laura Dern who the studio said no thank you because I guess Laura Dern to pretty young at Lauren's kind of like and she was so dewey are we at that point like I? I saw a blue velvet the other day revival screening. And you forget how much of the Laura dern like the thing for so long with just like innocence and caps sherzer inches or right but even through like law. Drastic Park is just like this is someone who's just like a ball of light excitement for dinosaurs interest interest So I will say though I think those other three people all probably would have won the Oscar playing this part. I think so if if if as long as it all GEL to hire would agree with you I for for sure. Pfeiffer is just outrageous that she it doesn't have Oscar. Yeah right St Louis the ones who lost to foster the first time if so she might have been in supporting. No I think you're right but if so what a fuck up 'cause that first Foster Oscar you can give that to one of the foster should not have one. Yeah no faster. But that's Glenn close close loss that one and Michelle pfeiffer is supporting. I think I think I need to find this. Okay Glenn Close. You're right it's when my show is for Michelle should've won for fabulous Baker. Our boys that's the greatest performance. Great movie your mom. Certainly of all time along with I know them. We're going to share those. The top two foster Glenn Close for Dangerous Liaisons Liaisons Melanie Griffith for working girl which was a big one. Yeah at the time Meryl Streep for a Dingo ate my baby and Sigourney for gorillas in the mist that weird to nomination year of hers. That's a weird year ear of a bunch of people who seemed like Oh inevitable. Oscar went in the next decade and then still have not won like Sigourney was just like. Oh so Gordon he's GonNa win any day now. Michelle pfeiffer is GonNa win any day now they will continue dominating Glenn Close is GonNa win and he just kind of right. I think wife pull it out this year. I think this year resubmit it every year the like the wife just so yeah so still alive. Wait till the wife. What if they what if they really sort of? She remarried the life to what did if they release it and just call it the way to still wife in what if Clinton otherwise. The film is unchanged just different title card. If Clint Eastwood made the wife to like that would be a great fucking movie. Calculate it would love to see that movie would get it order Nobel prize jerks wouldn't let her be your wife. All she wanted was to be a wife life. This is the thing is like he may changeling. Changing is the same thing with it. Sound like it's only the Richard Jewel of the world. The Clint Eastwood wants to be like they railroaded. Ah Long as they've been railroaded. Clint is intrigued. Clint distrust everyone. His sweet spot is when the person who's being railroaded as someone who should extend and simply be hailed as a hero one hundred percent otherwise crew of the life right in the widely hailed as a hero given Nobel for. Clint Eastwood should have directed the white there. Could you've been like a Nobel prize scene like in sully where the board is like. Well I don't think he wrote these books and she's like let's get serious. I thought you were saying that. Sully won the Nobel prize when he's true swept the board that year rocking won the MacArthur. I hope sully wins goes. Yeah he got Kook. Felt how this is Ben's new things new things he's going to get a yes twenty twenty and he plans to get it in the field of calling it a google. What were you gonNA say? Do you think he's going to win. Best picture this year. I feel like this might finally this year. It's overdue because you go four years in a row without winning best ask picture is pretty embarrassing. It's a win best picture. The Oscars centralized fleabag fleabag. Back won the Emmy it reserved. It's time for sully out is what the universe is telling us a one hundred percent. Yes thing ding-dong okay. Do we got Hello David. He's back I guess. This is your episode. I have some unresolved issues. David also. Hello Emily Nice to see you. I love your writing on Cats Dr. What's up what else did you WanNa talk about well although stamps stamps I've been eating They've gone straight to my. I put on a couple of pounds and it's the New Year you know. People want to resolve to get in better shape. It's my big resolution. David Stop eating stamps and I want to reestablish that sweet sweet thigh gap. Well here's the getting in shape you know. It doesn't have to be about a magic number on the scale. You specific amount of weight. But do you want to get those healthy habits. You WanNa feel better about yourself and you want to stop the silence. Stop the Silence Stop Screaming. Start the DESCR. You want to stop the screaming and start the silence you want. That's the my new year's resolution. Well if you want. If you're looking for those for those lamps to stop screaming you should go to neum. No Yeah. It's an APP that you can use to adjust your lifestyle in ways that you know you might want to improve your health improve your habits right. You Better WanNa cut ears out of your diet. It's GONNA teach psychology right behind the decisions you make talking my language help you keep track of things like workouts or your diet or the recipes. You're making those sorts of things have been missing that sort of structure since I snuck out of Jay Eight. And you'll know this is your era. Of course you've had a lot of patient contests of the year. You know connects you personally assigned goal specialists and a community of other numerous so they support you and you know empower your change sounds delicious. So maybe you want to have take better care of yourself more confident in your clothing and have more energy. Maybe you want to understand your thought patterns better or you know reduce your stress and anxiety. Any thing you're looking to improve noone. Noone can help you make good choices and keep you on track. Some of those suggestions felt a little loaded. David are you implying that I don't look confident. My clothes you look. I think you're if nothing else. You're confident guy. You think I don't understand my thought process work. It's just a habit. Changing solution users learn learn to develop a new relationship with food through personalized courses. Faraday I understand this. You shouldn't take it purse to healthy and easy to stick to way of life. It's a good way. You know label food good bad or off limits. It's just teaches you moderation and helps us things like you know dieting in conjunction with other pre existing meals. And things like that. I know you know what David I understand. I was acting reflexively. I'm I'm I'm sorry You've done a good job Pitching this product. Yes yes and you've convinced me. I'm now going to go to the local library. Sign up for new met full price so see later. Well just hold on. Hold on you don't have to change it on one day. Small all steps make big progress but you can sign up for a trial today at noon. No DOT com slash check. What do you have to lose? affray trying yeah. Is it NEUM DOT com slash. Check to start your trials today. Are you doing anything tonight. David going home at sleeping. Well if you want to come to my replace I'm cooking Stamps and off you heard earlier but I'm having stamps. I remember I remember so if you WANNA have stamps. Bullen as Z.. Stamp Sallow Vodka Temps Casino Stanford Casino. Thank you for the role of Dr Hannibal Lecter Okay. Jonathan Demme wanted one man and one man only I gotta guests this. Do you know I think I know I'm forgetting it's funny right. I guess so. It's obvious it is the obvious choice at the time. It is the obvious choice. So yeah I mean it's very much. Got Approach for Zillion and these kinds of roles. Who has it Sean Connery? Oh of course you know like and instead of Scotland he found a Welshman. But you know what I mean like that big gravitas actor. Yeah older will command the camera right. VAT would not have worked though. No because you're like well it's a very different but you're like of course. Brian Cox another Scott had already played. You're like Fox fosters perfect but the pfeiffer movie would have worked the Meg Ryan movie would have worked. Who's the other one you said? Lord knows was there a anyway. I mean she's right. She's been great but SORTA career on a whole different trajectory. Yes connery though. The Movie V would've folded on it would have been finding forrester. It would literally right. He just would have been like or even in the best case. Scenario is open. Oh boy well it'd be said that. Keep Your Eyes Open for Buffalo Bill. Best case scenario is it would have become the hunt for Red October game. Sean you know it would have been issues good in that. But that's my point. It's like it would've been like sterling popcorn. Entertainment that suffers a little bit from having to a folded into his movies with starling popcorn entertainment. Let myself out this. It'd be like eighteen terrible orphan joe. Perfect ten in house. And then there's this thing where it's like other actors considered for the role which I feel like probably just like I don't know some studios. They found yeah Al Pacino who in one thousand nine hundred ninety one or whatever would have gone hand right. He would've been crazy. Yeah Robert Deniro. Who probably would have gone the other way right? Really locked in Eh. Dustin Hoffman. I mean what the fuck this is. stupidly Derek Jacobi. That's his curveball. Weird little more of the president's type guy and Daniel well day Lewis but I don't think any of those work check. It would have been too close to what Brian Cox at all. Yeah Man Hunter That is fair now. Anthony Hopkins was the guy who was nowhere right. He had had this young career. That was promising right where he's in. You Know Lot Theater in the magic and address her magic a bridge too far and then he's in the elephant man what she's fantastic but one eighty. Oh you know a decade. And then it's like I don't know fucking I mean the bounty which was kind of a famous flop. But then like the dawning a chorus disapproval of nor heard of this. Yeah he's just in the margins and nobody like he's nobody that's right but he was like in that position of like this is someone that everyone agrees freezes. A good actor doesn't have any clout which is probably one reason. Many a lot of these big rectors probably like either like to gross or ah the supporting character who established I think would be afraid to take on this role and have it fight with their star persona this that you read and and knowing that Hannibal is supposed to be European. Just vaguely. You're right he's supposed to be. Would Pacino have done a eurotrash deprived of that. He would have been so good. Chino come on. He would have killed it. Yeah go and do it. But it's the same I I can't. Hey baby come but like Baldwin talks about about hunt for Red October and he was like such a big deal like clancy misery is. When he's making that right right Jack Ryan was so huge he was like remember getting on a plane and seeing that every other person was reading a Jack Ryan novel and going like Holy Shit? I'm about to be the next massive iconic character and he was like and then all of that went out the window when they hired connery because the movie became connery show the entire thing became service of connery. Not because he was a diva because he is this like like Supernova You know all powerful commanding one hundred percent. He's screaming a couple years removed from an Oscar. Win himself right He. He is become like grand old man. Connor right but also that he's just like Yeah I'm GonNa give you my voice and the Russian. Everyone talks about him being Russian. Everyone's everyone's like we're not even going to pretend Hannuri you know what you pay them to do. The whole thing. He was from Chicago Chicago gangster. That was the wonderful era of actors. He's being a Kevin Costner. Yeah you're Robin Hood Kevin Costner. But he sounds like he's from Oklahoma. Yeah I do want to note that Producer Ben has left and I am now producer. uh-huh you our producer and so that is true we the divine producer But yes I think like connery Hannuri would have done. Connery is would have been very appealing. He would not have submitted himself to a character. It would have looked like sean connery and sounded like Sean Connery and he probably would have gone like well. Audience won't accept me going to. I think it could work. It wouldn't have been as good of a movie. It'd be different. It would be Tober. You'd be like this is like a perfect perfect piece of like this is really fucking solid thriller. It would not have been the transcendent film that it is. I would argue. Also connery is like a big burly guy. He's got six two and he's burly which is probably which is more. How Cox Big Burly Guy? I don't know if he's tall. He's pretty tall. He's pretty whereas like Anthony Hopkins quite small short. Yeah and in in the movie does not present him as sort of like a physical specimen exactly. Yes very delicate. Blue Eyes is incredible. Yeah like you know like. He's more commanding as a result. You're scared of him because of the way he uses his voice his stillness in the room. You know what I mean. Like the opening shot where where. She's going down the hallway just standing there. It's like literally there's like a red carpet that she's walking down and he's like at the end of it like so theatrical and he's so theatrical without it being theatrical theatrical waiting for you that it's like the Mona Lisa like following seen a move I I've been bright I don't know yeah I mean. They're like five scenes in this movie that are arguably the greatest seen the movie I know but like the movie is like Jack. Crawford's like chlorine she's running. I love the running but like the clery saying go talk to Hannibal Lecter but be careful. She's okay she go see him early. What's this movie going to be about like it's like the thing is I don't know something's going is serial killer on the loose and like she meets with Chilton you'll get and then like once that scene starts you're like oh my watching the greatest? What the fuck is this? Yeah it's structured like a ROM com but that's the reason people were like. Oh I WANNA see Clarissa Hannibal Faulk. It's one of those things that people wanted novel right Thomas Harris's like this is what you wanted right and everyone's like and it's like it's same thing that happened with the TV show where the relationship so intimate and it's all an attention rented. I talked enough to Bryan Fuller to know that he wanted to do a silence of the lambs season like aspirin clarisse on the show and like he was interested in. DC sexualizing that relations. Yeah like making it about mentor. Ship quickey the SMART WAY TO I. I don't remember if if this was his casting or if it was fantastic it was fucking great and like now it would be perfect between Syria. Ronan suicide around tweeted that yeah and like now now. She's exactly the right age. It'd be like they. I hope they can work that out. Incredible because it's still they still kind of talk about it as a thing that they could maybe pull off right now is dead no right he re ripped. No offense took offense to being excited that he's dead but like he was part of the problem right like he was. It's sort of the problem. was they had the rights to lifetime to do. A show called starling which was about clarisse. I forgot I'm down like those rights. We're tied up at the same time. Hannibal was on Davis since expired. So like theoretically the deal could be done requires somebody to want to make more Hannibal which which is sort of a tricky proposition. Because after Hannibal which was such a huge hit. No Hannibal thing is ever really like the box office. Or nobody's Yeah nobody's wanted to touch that sacred ground because Hannibal of course Karan Seventeen seasons and was a massive success and we still like you still have people outside who are probably people outside the animals goes. Yeah have hand heads was Hannibal produced by. NBC Universal Knows Participate Gaumont International National Association with the Dealer Coming Right which is why that why. NBC aired three seasons for like five dollars at the end of the day. Weren't they ending. It was airing Saturday nights or Saturday. Sought there'd be like we are literally literally any ad money we make from this. We make money owing I guess about it so I guess we'll make it was like burning off a Canadian drama and the summer. NBC's a new show rookie blue. The first blue named the first it was basically a crime. Procedural fantastic's shred she's any of it and that season actually had okay ratings like decent for a show. You got for five dollars that is you know which throat strings turned into housing. Oh strings yeah and And then season two as much more serialised people start to drop off in season. Three is just one of the fucking fucking weirdest things as ever aired on American television. Nobody watching surly quite odd. I do I do want us Is there a role that has as high a track record of great performances. Hannibal Lecter we talked about this on the manhunt. Nobody would so wild. Lots of people have taken a shot at it. Most of them have done a really good almost career defining stuff with an but nonetheless. Anthony Hopkins is so associated with the role to the extent that you forget other people did right they. It's a weird thing that's hopkins both dominates it and there've been great interpretation therefore actors who have played him right in filmed media. Use Gaspar you. I'll nonstarter the other. Three are all the feud as exemplary performances that are totally different from one another and and aren't diminished by each other in any way and it doesn't and feel like there's even any sort of Loyd who's your favorite Batman like you know there are people who sometimes make the argument that Cox's better that mads got to do more with it or whatever but everyone just just like knows just like three perfect performances hopkins not ruined but he kind of you know he leans on it in the sequel right in a way that gets a little frustrated right and the thing. That's interesting Brian Cox's playing a human honey. Hawkins is Playing Dracula Right. And especially he gets pampering camp here with it. Allison is playing Satan for three. He's hot demon right like who you want. Maybe have you cook. You didn't so that's the other thing talking about all these other people who could have played Hannibal I feel like this is the kind of performance where people would have been scared in terms of how it would affect the audience's his view of them's or if you're coming into this already as establish actor Hopkins essentially had nothing to lose at this point. He has nothing to lose because he was coming off two moments when he should have had his breakthrough and it failed to really maintain so he just rips into this with the frosty of someone going. Like how do I make this interesting character after I can. That's all I have to to do here. And in a way it makes his career but it also feels like performance that would have doomed most other other people's careers and then it became so iconic that he could never get out of the shadow of being Hannibal and the fact that he then successfully has a twenty year run. But he's like doing merchant ivory removes residents delicious guy who is become this sort of like footnote British theatre actor right to the next year to ninety two years. HOWARDS SEND HE HAS DRACULA Yeah? He's chaplain right like right by ninety three he has remained. Dan shadowlands like He. Just Hollywood. Let's make you a movie star fucking an old guy. Can you play your British person. So we're GONNA shove you in some costume dramas like it works. Like it was what he wanted to do right and he wanted to do it. And obviously he's a talent Allan. This is the closest thing I can think of is. Captain Jack Sparrow. Yes Johnny Depp. Got Buried by. That doesn't until he goes back to do Hannibal and she goes back is when he starts to become a bit of a lazy actor. Say Now I actually quite enjoy current hopkins where he's just an old guy and he sort of leaning into it again like it's the Gravitas. Yeah Yeah Right. My Favorite Hopkins performance outside of this is to Gas Nixon Nixon. Where he's like doing an impression but he's also like I'm Anthony Hopkins? I'm not gonNA try and like he's connery doing the climate you're never gonna get nailing it where where you're like. This guy is like a maniac but also I do sort of love. There's weird like tension that he's so good at finding a love. Nixon extending rule. Yeah I I think better than JFK. I still prefer JFK. But I do love I think that Nixon is like Oliver Stone. His best like piles of conspiratorial papers around him being like. Don't you see it was all happening in the Bahamas. You're like my God. I'll be there was a time where we had to spend a lot of time thinking seriously about the show house of cards which is a terrible television show but like if I now try to think about how you Jerry on lights at toward as I have a friend who was on house of cards and just like I have actually talked to several people who are House of cards and just like it was a nightmare. Yes like the whole time. But it's like it's almost like one person and who has an Torian track record to everyone. Let me be frank gehry on but when I When I think think about house of cards for like five minutes drifts into Nixon it just becomes interesting because I think that it's I think those two are connected? Nixon is doing everything house of cards tried to do in two a half hours in his fantastic. It is fantastic. I think also yeah. It's just like stone is such a great that is stone he's a paranoiac and like a self. That's perfect nick. Subject whereas like the JFK. You know he the JFK. He's making it about new person. News obsessed with the regular but like Nixon is just a great portrayal of power from from a maniac about Ameinias. Yeah it's great after Nixon Right. He's in he starts flipping. Yeah he keeps the old man rolls a Hamas todd classical membrane right. Does that big speech. Yeah waters this reflects bear. I'm sitting at Jamie. He's like Gimme some action. The you have the edge. Do You have the Mask of Zorro. People forget he has a whole opening set piece where he is our. Oh Yeah and then the rest of the movie you know. He's he's in it recently. twit perfect it is a problem. It's the greatest film of all time. then instinct right. He's I mean he's a company. Yeah bad company. I saw that in theaters. It's that thing is a stinker Schumacher film. I'm trying to remember that the movie is terrible. Bad Company was written as a sequel to something that sounds right and I forget what it was and it makes a lot of sense and is really funny. I thought for a second. I thought we were talking about the movie. Big trouble which was based on a Dave Berry. Correct just the correct Dave Berry a lot lately I think about a mile chuckle. Just a little rise. Sort sort of a skew smile wipes across my face when I think about Dave's world I've been feeling like if I read all of Dave Berry I could understand our current increased. NCAA he's just like I tried to sell my editor on it. She's not convinced that company was written as a sequel to blue streak right which is wild stuff And it was just like what if this time there was an old guy with Martin Lawrence and they're like a buddy movie. Well no I think the other problem was it was like the first one is he pretends to be a cop but he's actually robber and they were like how do we heighten it and they were like what if he ends up having to pretend to be an FBI agent and they're like through what series. Here's the events in his twin brothers age. Okay but you know what I'm saying the ideas you heighten it. Yeah and the plot if I Toronto and people who may have forgotten this identical twin. It's Dave with right. They they need someone who looks like Chris Rock Right Chris. Rock is dead. He has identical twin also played by Chris. Rock right WHO's a funny guy right now to. Cia I just remember that if any brother I remember them announcing that movie being Dan rather because they were like secures movie. It's called bad company. It's reworked from a script that was meant to be blue streak to it's Chris. Rock and Anthony Hopkins. Sounds like what. What a great oil and vinegar? ODD COUPLE BUDDY COP action comedy I presume. And then you see the movie just seeing the trailing going well this looks so fucking Dour Dour. Yeah it's just a thriller it's a thriller and then Chris Rock like starting to people who should not be playing those roles who had no chemistry together. The Anthony Hopkins grow as you're reading off these roles. I'm picturing my head I've seen a lot of them. I'm even picturing the later Hannibal Movies and I'm like he feels like a different person for the person in silence of He's does when he's great he becomes more of a movie star after this. We're then he's doing. The connery breeze like character. He's gotTa come towards me as fully giving himself and Serbis because Hannibal Film Animal Brackets Film. It's not come out for what ten years it. It's two thousand because right after gladiator ten years uptown so lamps. Yeah and just sort of feels like Hopkins straining little too hard to play similar age to like. He's trying to be young and there's a little too much like physicality in red dragon which is a Prequel to silence. Yes trying way harder and feels very strange. Yeah I remember when Hannibal Oh came out that was February. Two thousand one. They were trying to replicate the signs release date and Jeff to talk about every time. I'm on this fucking podcast. He's he's just he was like he saw an early screening of it was like they should release that on Christmas Day and Ridley Scott can get to best picture nominations and like a pretty sure it was that makes whole but yeah. We'll either one of them I mean. Poland is the Oscar cursor. Yeah anytime yeah he was like fucking Phantom of the opera get ready across the board. It's a total shit ball of a human being but he's everything. He is bad at predicting the Oscars. He is not a ship. All Jeff Wells is a a combination of all three Hannibal Lecter as you discussed. He's a vampire he's also a man. Okay unfortunately a constant reminder podcast humanities Kelly ability I hope he does listen I hope he makes the banner on Hollywood Ali would elsewhere. Say a vampire Satan a man man. It'd be beautiful one hundred percent. He he did email and say that we'd look. I said throttle off the well-stocked Tug Hopkins Call Times. But do you folks. No the the Hopkins acting process. 'cause I kind find it Kinda fascinating sonate. Everyone's like he's the most professional actor he's the most prepared. He just fucking like nails it. A he reads the entire script. uh-huh ah two hundred times like just obsessively reads reads reads rereads a month or two before filming noses lines backwards and forwards has it like like so thoroughly and has had record himself doing all the dialogue every night. It's the time has gotten onset. He said it so many times that it's like second nature right. So that's part one and a crucial for this movie where he's monologue in a lot of very sort of a complicated lines but in terms of actual language he kinda puts in the work at a scale that almost no one else does of just it's like everyone's like obsessively no one reads. The lines practices memorize is harder earlier stronger than Hopkins. The second thing is which is reported on less but I have heard other actors have worked with him. Say This in interviews and I don't know if I should be saying Mr not what he does to get into character is like he's he's like really big on like building the visuals of the character and the costume fitting in the Harrington whatever and then he has them take the polaroid I think it still to this day. Polaroid it needs to be an analog process. It takes the polar from when they nail the look of the character that first time and he has all the dialogue backwards and forwards in his head and he looks at the Polaroid's and they're like it looks like a possession where he just starts staring very deeply at the polaroid and then he'd like leans into it and then like his eyes roll back back into his head and he inhales and like stand straight up and he's the character cool not like he's method acting like now you have to call him. Doctor Doctor Lector. Looks at the image of what they finally have nailed the look of the character to be and he stares at it until he feels like he is embodying that and then he's just like okay go cool. We'll talk. came out. Strength stared at a polaroid of like myself. Right brought brought it to my forehead so the pot of sauce foster. You WanNa talk about career now. I think we gotta yeah. We're saying I was I was trying to Q.. I really don't know oster producer jodie foster As we all know I was a child actress. The coppertone Kit Hundred percent. He's the one getting pants by the dog. That's sure absolutely Right and then you know. She's she's in freaky Friday and she is the paper Moon TV show and the bad news bears in one of the sequels. Am I wrong about that. I feel like she replaced tatum. The money all two times. But maybe I'm wrong. I don't think so. I mean she was in things yet she was in a lot of TV shows. Bugsy Malone yes people forget the Bugsy Malone and end freaky Friday come up the same year as taxi driver. Yeah it's not like taxi driver was late in her child acting. It was pretty quickly Because 'cause obviously so many fourteen years old when she does texture but like and so she did kind of after that out there. That whole big year starts transitioning more to you know whatever grown grown up movies right but taxi driver. I was like Oh shit she can actually act but also was seen as something of a like. You know Selena Gomez doing spring breakers because yeah someone trying to lay the groundwork for an adult career by establishing early that she's not going to be in Disneyland for entirely whose when she's in the accused it's kind of like Oh jodie foster's back kind of right like like. Oh here's a serious performance from the famed child actor who is right. Taxi driver And then in between clean the accused in silence of the lambs. Just one movie. Catch fire slash backtrack now the movie. And then after this much like with Hopkins Hollywood is like okay. Let's your movies your Oskar you. Yeah right so sensibly the biggest female star in Hollywood she starts directing a lot to starts directing early but she would. We'll always say she prefers to acting and that she wanted to become more of a director and active in less than I am. I believe comes out the same year. It's that was a big part of their their Oscar campaign. Percents the labs was. They were like we're going to put little man tate out there. It's going to be a sort of Fanta. Yeah Four. Because she's going to get all this press the movie. It's a very nice home for the holidays. Which I think is a good move into the beaver? Yeah F- more of a mixed bag that I discovered Jennifer Lawrence though. She didn't win. He didn't they make that before winter. I believe they did time. And I am all but certain they hey did That's also one of those movies where that was the hot script. I read it as a script. I want the part so fucking badly and on paper you were just just like slam dunk of all slam dunks. And even when they cast Mel Gibson. That's an interesting casting choice and then you watch the movie and you're like Oh it is. The script is impossible to actually put on. Its thing that I think. A lot about blacklist scripts. Yes there are so many of them. They're like Oh this is fucking amazing. The one set as press often are unacceptable. Passengers was a movie where the script is like very good and it's a pretty perfect script and then the movie you're like. Oh what the fuck and beavers the same thing as passengers where it's like it is. It's creepy pasta. No both of them are so difficult to pull off totally where reading the script that the writer is literally literally describing how you're viewing scenes. And letting you know the tone it's supposed to have and you're putting it in your mind's eye the way that hits your palate the best. Yeah and those two films like put up on their feet are just like impossible to do. I did it. I did a twitter about this around. The movie Life itself Dan Fogel move. Sure you've read that on the page you're probably like Oh yeah great. I've read it and like you hear the story like Warren Beatty WEAP- treating that's great lake. Then you see it on screen is just stupid stupid. I'm friends SUV. Kyle killen the guy who wrote the Yes now. He's running halo. I think which is video the showtime TV series Halo based on the video. Okay Yeah but yeah. He's excellent writer. It's just like great screenwriting which the signs of the lambs has to two but great screenwriting so often often about just like economics of character. And anytime you're giving yourself something super flashy it becomes dangerous and then actually depicting it on game. Yeah it's too much right and it was like there was almost the Jay Roach Jim Carey beaver would've gone like totally comedy. And then it was surprising that was like Jodi Foster Mel Gibson. He could do it. It's more of a drama and reality. Neither one's the right approach. I kinda WanNa see the Jay Roach. Jim Carey One one sheet her last directorial. Effort was famously. A bio pic of Davidson's money monster answering and then somehow Taghi starting the Patriots and then there was also but like we should also you know in the ninety she had a a somewhat robust like movie star career. There's Maverick averick. There's no there's contact there's Anna and the king. That's sort of like nineties. Run gets an Oscar nomination for nell contact. People forget was a pretty big hit and he's a great movie time. Meccas my God. Yeah I know a lot of its long. That's that's the biggest hold out and the king is kind of like a big Oscar. Green movie the flop and it's just a stupid idea. People should sing songs. Like I don't know that I want to hear the story of her. Two thousands are fascinating because she'll take like three years in between each movie to the extent that people are like. Oh I guess maybe Jodie Foster's like don she comes back and has another like third base hit. She has a couple. She got a clue panic. Room in inside man. You're calling that a base head socks office. Oh box office box off plan is it's she. He has made two films that I would call outright offensive in the two thousand flight plan in the brave one two films like when you watch them now. You're this is problematic. Tricky moving I have not seen either. Flynn is basically movie. That's like what if you suspected Brown person on your plane was a terrorist and you were right like that's what flight plan is eighty five. Four point was definitely a hit back home. The director Robert Twinkie twinkie. Yeah eighty nine domestic corrector of red pretty horrible movie. I find almost any movie set on a plane. Watch well because I am so tense. During a movie. With jodie foster in a thriller is like so so so effective. Rave one is not a movie. I like but she doesn't get that she got that Globe nomination and that was that was people thought that was gonna be a big Oscar play for her and a big sort of revenge thriller. Wish we did death which is still like templates once in a while people like. Let's do a death with ex actor now. She's like directing television. She did some more interest in new black. Yeah and then. After that I mean well mims island freight names island but carnage the Polanski. Elise Syam I mean she had sort of said like I was pretty much retired from acting. Ideally want to act anymore district nine so much I said I'll do anything. And she kind kind of has the inside man role but it's like the bad version of that role right like she sort of the evil richly and I forget which way it is because the movies forgettable but either she filmed it with a Frenchaccent Jackson. They made it to American later or vice versa deer and then performances eighty yard because they wanted her to do a different voice than what she did onset then last year a hotel Artemis yes forgot which she is in really fucking good in. It's not a moving love it's like. I'm ready ready to love this movie either. What the concept castle that? It's sort of like John Wick. John Wick I love breads another screenplay movie though one hundred percent totally totally and it's not like it flops. It but it doesn't really pass like cool idea is pretty phenomenal. And she's giving a really funny performance four months. It's a full body performance that she's in it I don't know she wants to just like the sticks. You just like the script as you're right so basically like I I guess. She just directs now in kind of chills out once in a while she'll do a hotel artists she'll show up at the Golden Globes to speak up for Mel Gibson. This is the thing I like. This is the thing when you Nick Polanski. There's a lot of in her film house. You really works with the famous thing about her was like she was the one child star who didn't fall apart. Like a longtime right people. She was like she's the exception that proves and yet in the middle of it. She has the John Wayne. Hinckley thing. Where unlike where like? It's this huge burden on her life and she likes somehow overcomes that psychologically and I think that in some way made her more predisposed to be like these guys are damaged. But like I I see the good in number or something like that. I think she had to get past this element of. Oh this terrible thing happened and I think it was about me. She was like a a massive star had won two Oscars was like in a list. Box Office leading lady and was often afraid or not interested in being one. Sure I think Hollywood was always ready to put her at the top but but the other fascinating thing about her was. She was at her peak living in a total glass closet in terms of her sexuality with with a total. Like don't ask don't tell. Attitude of there was never any denial. There were no beards. You know like ninety seven or ninety eight. She like has a child through and Fredo fertilization organization with a partner and everyone reports on it it just doesn't like directly say. She is married to a woman she out. Now she is. She gave a speech speech at award show at the Globes but this was like fairly recently right like twice while like a lifetime achievement award and she gave this sort of odd spe- and she said like my wife She's now divorced from but she like when she finally came out she just sort of said like you know that person I've been married to for like fifteen years and we just don't directly acknowledged that the memory that she gave that speech and everyone was like did Jodi foster just come out and then in the press room they were like did you. Just come out. She's like no. I think she doesn't like the press. It's that much I mean fair I also I read it at the time as her saying like. That wasn't me coming out. Everyone knows I'm gay. You know sure because there was never any sort sort of like diversion with her. which like it wasn't even like rumors? have dogged it was like a joint fosters gay. She's gay yea. Everyone knows that I wanNA point out. She also directed a bike near interested. Able get directed Archangel. Oh right which is not my favorite back mayor the worst episode performances. I just find it very interesting. That even if she didn't publicly come out at her peak she was essentially the first like major major. Our gain movie star. You know there was no alternate narrative being thrown around about her. I guess so you ever think about how the narrative more became a Gwa. Hasn't she quote come out like why is on the rape right. Yeah if you think about how in home for the holidays she cast as the hot guy who might tempt holly hunter to move home. Is David Strathern Lake. AAC Good taste the call. What silence of the lambs MHM? I'm trying to think of like are there scenes or sequences. We haven't talked about. Obviously we have talked about some of the major sequences running time. Gripe by this will get a sense one you want to shout out. This movie was a legendary scary. VHS cover movie for me. Yep My parents rented it because I think even though they it was like I'm a young kid when this comes out so it's probably appeared what they're probably seeing now a lotta movies But I'm sure that this thing was such a big thing that they were like all right. Let's thread silence onto the lamb. Yeah the poster icon poster Jodie Foster's face in like extreme contrast and even look like her. It feels like a piece of ICONOGRAPHY. Ah Yes with the moth over her face. Yeah I mean you guys know the poster poster I was like what is this movie about lambs. Yeah what is it like. No we can't explain to young. I don't know where to begin at the exact same relationship with it and I knew a scary. We knew that the images upsetting. You can't put your finger on. Why right and the weird the skull on the back of the of that raise like is that just how it happens to look or is that them making a movie about a monster mov like? Is that a real easy about a Mothman Prophecies about the Mothman prophecies overseas. Great fucking movie. I have not actually. It's really nice No I We have talked about so much of this movie. And we haven't talked about two of the most famous sequences like at all. I just want to point out. Also there is the iconic hopkins poster is never used Yes they had the reverse essentially essentially right carry on this gross poster. There's some things are I think there's a reason they were like you know what the foster one is the good balance light and dark. There is some sick. You'RE GONNA get eaten by Darth. Maul in his face is totally red. There's something about the blink of foster's face that makes the poster really eerie. I was also thinking. It's a rare example of like a poster that totally works on. Its own as just a striking piece of ICONOGRAPHY. I don't get with this poster saying I don't understand what's going on this money but it catches my eye and it makes me curious and also after you have seen the movie. The poster is more impressive one hundred percent like that's an incredible visual encapsulation leashes. What's going on here totally? But it's something that doesn't sell those things to you and spoil it for you going into the theater. And then the poster becomes its own individual work of art. Great my great fucking movie. What did you want to talk about the second hour this movie? We've barely we haven't talked about talk about the setup and we have to talk about electricity escape you're right and they haven't talked about the Buffalo Bills House set up. Can I do my seen random because I think serve as a transition to get into the big three hundred okay. Hopkins has nine scenes in the movie. Sounds Great I. I can't say I was one hundred percent accuracy. He's in for nine. He's nine for an he's nine for nine But my rule was if he is in a scene. My Stop Watch is going and if the scene ends my stop watch stops. That is what the rule should be one hundred. This weird screen time thing became more about. When do we see them? ONSCREEN is already set right. And so what is it twelve minutes. There's some like the succesor right. We're the he's actually only in the movie for sixteen minutes. He's only. His face is only directly on screen for sixteen minutes. But that's mostly because of the fucking cinematic language of this movie. which is separating clarisse and hopkins kissed? Dialogue is over those shots. There's no disputing this right. You count the scenes. He's in not the counted any scene in which he was working. Yes where he is affecting the scene where he's a character in this so even when he escapes and he's wearing the fake face. All of that that is that is true. The Hannibal does have a whole scene where he's just pretending to be a dead bug A.. C. Angry I showed US number two in the call. She they said Mr Hopkins. You want a coffee and he was like your thank you. Do you want a pillow in between takes hopkins in that scene. Okay so you got to eat the lamb chops. It's a classic example of great looking food. Not Getting the thing that trips to the crazy in crazy they're rare okay. The first meeting seen six minutes and forty seconds the second meeting seen after after the rain where he gives her the towel. Four twenty right to add these times together already done it. I've had it together. Okay okay then it's Five thirty already I think is the third meeting where they start the quid. Pro Quo thing right then. Broke wrote scene for one. Thirty is anthony held with him with the cage on his face talking about the transfer then seen five I believe is Him meeting with the sender. That's three thirty seen six. The Big One. That's the silence of the lambs monologue. That's seven Yep him in the weird cell and all that stuff yeah right then him escaping keeping from the cell. The attack is four his screen time in terms of the phone. Call the end. Please oeser. Then it's the two minutes of him wearing the other guy's face getting out right ending with him waking up in the ambulance and then seen nine is one minute. Which is the phone call at the end? He's got thirty six minutes and thirty seconds. Atkinson screen time in this movie by my count in like a two hour moving in a two hour movie now the thing that shifts. He's not in much of the latter. That's the thing you know. Yeah because then it becomes gotta get Buffalo. Because the first hour of the movie. I was pretty much up to thirty minutes and I was like two of right. Mostly what it's about right and then there's a large chunk for about half an hour plus where he doesn't appear until the phone call because he's getting to the Caribbean right but he's getting a had this is. Here's the thing I think that throws this conversation. Compensation is if you gender flip this. If this was somehow a movie about like Eddie Road Maintenance Sandra Bullock Sandra bullock was like a serial killer like people would be like. Oh yeah she still of course because we. We don't expect a man to play a supporting lead role a woman movie like this. That's what this is. It's a liberal that supports the other lead or there's a weird version of it where you're in like the first movie the Danish girl fucking At least if it kinder's one hundred percent the main character in that film shows the most notably the main challenge of the Janus girl met film and they put her in supporting because it was like a cake while it is. It is so weird that she has that Oscar. It's so weird that she won and that she beat another lead performance. That should have won. Rooney Mar- Yes Carol. Yes the other thing was. I felt this as well Rooney Mara was the actual care. A Hundred G's Carol. She plays Carol Right I. It also is incredibly strange that I feel like right up until the nominations everyone was like. Yeah KANTER IS GONNA get for mackinaw and she's probably GonNa win the Oscar because it feels like a big year for her and that will be a cool Oscar win and then. The surprise was predicting predicting predicting the Danish girl. You're reading the WEIRD BLOGS NO NO I. Danish girl was ex- smacking had its own lovely surprise when people were kind of protecting Danish girl actress. Now ECHINACEA there were gone into supporting. There were a couple of places that said that but they ran but once once the curses wants to recur started. She was nominated as supporting actress. Because that was the move they made. Who had that movie? That was that was focused. Right right right you know Golden Globes Golden schmos. No you're right. How Globes they did that trick? Thank you rushing at the double nomination and people going to repeat it. Then at the SAGS. She went supporting because at the SAG out. Someone in a category and they can't be excluded. Yeah and she one and that was the moment when remarks agent called me and said she wasn't going to do an interview with me boy. Wow that's sad. I was GonNa talk to her because she was running. She was getting ready for an Oscar campaign in every house was like okay. Forget it save your money at least winning doomed Rooney Mara David so my fault. It's you're you're okay. You're right you're right thank you so yes. We've talked a lot about the major interrogation. We talked about this the handrail the Karis seems. I love All the stuff of cassie lemons is so good to and such. That's a good example of not putting to find a point on it but just like such a lived in relationship. It's just like this is what a female friendships right. Yeah Oh and especially in this. Incredibly male dominated field where they are like having to prove prove themselves twice as hard at every single turn and also dealing with such which heavy awful shit all the time where. It's like having a friendship of someone else who gets that scene. Where they're going over the case file and figuring him out and it's it's all in the first person close ups and Cassie Lemons? Lips are trembling just a little bit. It's incredible like repeating micro expression she keeps on making and it is like they're excited because they're solving it but the heaviness of what they're talking about is so disturbing that it's still affecting her psychological. I also just like that. That scene is clearest being like hey figure this out with me. It's not like just her with like Hannibal in her head like pouring over notorious yourself. Well another thing I love is when they watched the press conference of the senator and she's like she's really smart. She knows what she's doing. She's really smart and explains to everyone like she understands. The Buffalo Bills GonNa have a harder time killing her if she has a name. She's shooting which then transitions into it. Puts the lotion on its skin and then it gets the hose again right which is like Ted Levine's best seen as an actor where he's fully playing talking about like I. Yes it's a guy working hard as he can to play the monster and to personalize her. That scene is insanely upset. It's so this movie is not that violent. No even though it's you know about a guy who eats people in there some eating and there's nothing this really graphic in that scene not not in that scene and really the most graphic thing in this movie is a severed head in a jar which is great and the and and then I'll and you know the the skin reveal your yes. Get some grossing sense right right but I think he accountable but the scenes with her in the Hoopla in the pit hit and like the her seeing the nail and all that like. That's the stuff where you're kind of like I might have to turn this off. I'm upset right. That's sort of the most chilling stuff in the movie and him. I'm doing the the the weird shrieking one touch. I love this skipping ahead to the end is that it scored with that fucking dog barking. Yeah which is just like the dodgers in pain anxiety. Yeah yes and it's such a weird little touch that you can hear throughout the house at different games so panicky all that stuff. He's so good to Brooks Smith. Yeah I mean. Every performance in this film is incredible every two line performance incredible but her in the car. I forget that this movie has like four really strong needle drops but her in the car on. Its talk about listening to American girls. You get such a sense of WHO. She is in temperament. But it's beautiful. That's devoted the context of Her parents right that it's just. It could be any random person you don't understand the weight. She's GonNa hold culturally right part of the victim. Ruffalo bills problem was that he accidentally abducted a senator's daughter doesn't the not doing it for that read. But that's like what awakens national interests. Also just like such a beautiful like story decision on Thomas Harris's part which is like that's how you explain why they're willing to deal with fucking Hannibal Lecter. Suddenly this becomes a thing that the presence weighed in on every time. Anyone goes anywhere in this movie they go like. Oh that Buffalo Bill case but everyone knows this fucking guy. He's equivalent to the Zodiac killer in that like them and follow. Driving is getting out of hand Dan. The president is weighing in on this. It's become such an emotional story that it's like we can clean up any mass. After the fact Hannibal Lecter we just need to find her now now which is great And watching her do all the math of like you know how she can figure it out but also how she can use this case to who her career crews benefit To be able to sort of firmly get her foot in so that she can be in arguable within the F Chisholm. She's embiid like normal way. She gets it. She's she's a version of this movie where she is more cutthroat right. It's like that's often how women who are careerists are presented in the fucking speech Casey Lemons about. Oh we don't get to ensure exact feature Hannibal Lecter and he's like you don't understand how hard my lifespan. Right right right and Hannibal electors an ally and any bus outs stats about. I mean there is like every scene. He's in the movie he walks in and he you just like hey. The ally has arrived. Yes it's weird that he on his jumpsuit wrote. The future is female. And then if you turn around on on the other side it says nevertheless she persist and both written and okay so Red Dragon the first. I'm Harris novel novel which is about a man who the he's the version of the COP who's like I have a disease and disease that I understand criminals and I'll never be cured right? I understand killers. That's like what will Graham type whereas like. This movie is all about Hannibal trying to understand calories and her diseases like I just feel like if I save this person and then finally the the ocean inside me will become knows. It won't the title. Is that the title is aspirational. She's driving four in life is to get to the silence of the lambs. Yes she wants to be in a place where she feels like she's been able to personally stop the Crying because the idea that people are in that much pain and suffering flips her the fuck out and like eighties wild at this movie. The crux of this movie is that story right because it's not don't like that story then like lambs but an Anagram of lambs is this and that's where he lives like it's not like electors trying to get her to realize something about the case when they're talking talk about her but but it is. It's such a key thing because as you said like Graham as sort of shadow of of Hannibal or vice versa. Right sure. They're both people who have spent their lives studying the psychology of incredibly broken juris people right and it has kind of destroyed both which is like what behavioral science of the mind. Hunter eventually is going to be like you know and this is based on the mind. Hunter Jack Crawford is the mind hunter guide right like that's the classic thing. Serial killers may be all sort of start to go mad yourself and Hannibal sort of super power. Is He understands that. Mind so well that it gives them such a clear vision vision of how fucked up to manage the human brain can be that it makes him into this total fucking nihilist. Who wants to eat people's brains ship so really smart about making Buffalo Bill and that only flurries could catch what they think? Her magic power is understanding him as a person right and that's what eventually unlocks exit for her. Because she conversation is so pivotal she has not given up on humanity yet. Yeah one hundred. which will Graham is only so successful in being able? Oh Stop Hannibal Lecter. Because he's already gotten to him right. The souls already started getting eating you know and the fact that is so much still in the aspirational aspirational phase of. Maybe I can stop at all. Maybe I can let the lambs go free. And they'll stop screaming. It's kind of about the ways that men fail to understand. Women got the way that women always understand man and like able to navigate within that space. Because if you accept the Buffalo Bill is not trans which Demi certainly wants us to think. Then he he is a man who is like not comprehending womanhood is more than this costume. He wants to put right which is true. I think that'll fix it. If you can find the right size and the right person right right and the Thomas Harris thing like Bryan Fuller was being too. This is like every killer is wants to transform themselves in some way like. He's trying to wash away his pain by becoming in what he thinks of is the opposite of himself without realizing that like it's within him at the same time right. It's not that he feels that he is a woman it's that he wishes. He were a different person. The most drastic way he can think of making that happen which is why he's like applied for sex reassignment surgery by rejected is like the Hannibal points out breast back then like the the way to become like legally translates like you had to like go essentially fulltime which means dressing as the gender that you you are. You had to do that for two years. And then you start on hormones and then you could do something like it. Was this law unlike clearly. He's not doing that like he doesn't WanNa take the social risk USC of like going out dressed in women's clothing or whatever it tells you everything because you sense that he would not feel any freedom from doing that. Yeah he is looking for some sort of magic solve to how much he hates being in his own skin which is because of the life he's lived said I do you think that one of the areas in which it kind of gets up to trans experience in a way that is like damaging is talking about someone who desperately does not want to be himself and that is often like I remember for many years I just was like I just I. I don't want to be a woman I just don't want to be me. And unlike this the body I midfield wrong to me. But that doesn't mean I want to be a woman because it's like a huge conceptual leap to make its lecture raking apart society on some level and like I do wonder you know for all the movies protests to the contrary it does capture that element of the experience with Buffalo Bill. And I'm like I wonder to what degree you could. You a sympathetic translating of Scherzer. I think you could. I'm not going to try it but I think you could. Yeah Yeah it's it'd be tough but yeah I mean yeah you go like it. Takes takes twenty plus years after this movie for us to start getting like trans characters played by transact or director the hands right and that's what five years ago and even that is and misguided project once Eddie read main to then Hollywood was like okay. Everybody who's had to do you. Why would Scarlett Johansson tried to do is like no right? Eddie Rodman they did it on you. Miss your window. The this is unlike the other thing that I noticed this. And I don't always like whenever Never Hannibal's talking to cleary's his mind immediately goes to the worst thing so when she went to her dad dies she has to live with her dad's cousins and did he do terrible things he always goes there and I think it's partly that he just can't resist like pushing a button but also like he just assumes the world is like completely overflow when she shows up he's like oh so they sent you because they think all WanNa fuck you right and then I'm just Jack Crawford WanNa fuck you and she's gone deflecting but he's always just it's like you know it has to be the worst thing right because he spent his life studying saying Oh right right. The worst psychological mechanisms a person can have whereas Clarissa Reece's more like even though she toko lamb and it was too heavy and she couldn't save the lamb. Yeah like she still like you know what I'm going to keep trying to save the limb. The smart thing about the end of this movie is it understands that you can defeat by entertainments but you can never defeat the devil grantable. Lecter is always GONNA escape. Hannibal Lecter is always going to be out there in the world but Clarissa Rhesus approach can work for a time you can save one woman can stop one villain electorates so compelling. You're kind of like this doesn't belong in jail. He's like a caged Animal Aguirre. Yeah you're like I know like he just has that feeling real like he should be out there. Even though that's scary you know what I mean like you. Just like the the idea of him operating a full powers kind of thrilling. The scene with the senators incredible. I mean aside from the fact that obviously you have the most iconic being back to below but him with the straitjacket the orange jumpsuit on the stretch of course with the mass which is just I it. Another thing we're watching for. The first time is a fifteen year old. I was like okay but I've seen unlike a thousand fucking parodies of the mass and parodies of Jim. Carey's the mask I've seen so many people wearing the mask is a joke and fuck and putting it on compel can't Damn Crystal Right on the Oscar stage that I was like this is going to have no power for me and the first time they will amount that you go that is fucking terrifying and watching it again last night. There's something about it like his wide open piercing blue eyes and his blank expression underneath and his mouth mouth looking like it's in its own jail cell the fact that it's like little metal bars in front of his teeth to eighty two thing that the impersonations nations of it you don't get his eyes are darting. Just incredible yeah right. Yeah he's like looking for an escape and then of course they will match the senator and he like starts giving their from issue wants but also it's like he can't help himself this press and this is he just. I can't help himself and he helped like sucks basic. There's no fundraiser. You know and then like he is so good and so he's whole preening like he's the specimen I've got a weird little started carrying no and like he hates everyone else like in his wing. You know I mean the fact that he kills the other guy for throwing the semen on Clarisse is just like please. There's a difference between me and guys like this. He basically clear lost Hannibal within that when that happened. And like I owe you a solid home overall make dinner you know that would be his usual approach. Yeah I'll draw you right. Yeah and then. It's like this movie just has like a couple like straight upset pieces. We're like the whole prison. I mean not prison. The whole escape escape thing is incredible. Sequence right is just like stunning. Servizi stashes amazing on that one off. Yes it's the craze. He's very thin but very long. Go crazy variation on food man. Yeah by the way Ben Battle. Ben Holiest back fastback beautiful. Just throw some thoughts of stuff earlier that you guys have already talked about read a quick go here. Shady storage units across America love that I would not help anyone with the street couch into a van. Let alone at night. Sure I do like the in the scene. She has the Agency of this is clearly early. A bad idea right that they don't play her as a total naive lake. SORTA moron. It's like she knows like fuck. This is the kind of thing that usually ends ends up with you. Being put in a pit right and it's that basic human thing of like in the moment you're like I should give him the benefit of the Dasher right and then it's too late the second because he just Baxter in and yet we didn't talk about the storage locker. That move of Hannibal being like go visit a friend of mine transferred a storage locker unreal. Chill your cowboy man in the rain. Who's Asanka gone tomorrow? And she's exciting under the door. And then that fucking setup of like the carriage edge with the plush interior and the headless mannequin and then the head in a jar. How are we supposed to believe that Hannibal has been in jail that he just set up this little display and paid long enough for to remain in the storage locker request yours? I mean that's incredible critical. What an artist? This guy is good for him. He's a big picture. This made storage unit. When I drive those yeah on the highway late at night like scar-free Pete? There is something about things in those buildings right. True mystery. Laurie I was GONNA say fuck. I don't remember I want Amy Tobin. Great Aitmatov film critic wrote the Criterion Assay. If you've read it being very good And she points out like that scene there's flags everywhere. Yeah the scene obviously in the Prison escape weird sell. I don't know how you describe it. The Weird Selling Gymnasium Zia. Yeah thing that has the weird American flag like and like when I go again makes a weird little display for everyone Charles. Napier beer hanging with his skin ripped great. Hannibal could have just gotten out of there. But he's like no no there needs to be some pomp and circumstance needs people to respect him like full Foale to recognize that he's a genius artist. He's like she's like all these tattered flags. All these relics of America like this is all very intense. Yeah yeah the I I really I advise you to read it. It's really good our the TV show went a little like it did great stuff with the death tableau but like what I like. Mike about this movie is that you can sort of. You can bend your brain in a way where you're like okay. Yeah I get like how he did this even though he had like ten minutes to like from the ceiling. Yeah you know yeah but it is like it's a pretty like even knowing where it goes. It is such a beautifully constructed extended set piece from from like I mean they've set up the pen like fifteen twenty minutes earlier So you see him look at it than a full scene later you see. Anthony held well not be able to find his pen and they sit on it for like another ten minutes before he takes the thing out of his. Now it's after he's had the whole clery conversation after after he's been transferred then he takes it out and then just like how's he fucking GonNa get out of this then to switch over to the swap Guy Perspective I love. That's the beauty that takes so y you really stick with those guys. One of them is an actor. I know who is it. That's Chris Isaak's bargain. There's someone else in there whose face I recognize. Remember things I love about timing. He lets things breathe. I feel like so many other movies like this would just be like Bang Bang Bang. Here's something like this is it takes. Its time attention attention of the elevator thing of all of them realizing like Oh fuck guns out call the battalion seeing it. Stop on three and then going like wait. What the fuck is going rolling on right? I also like that. You don't see him rip the guy's skin just the shot of him. Taking the like the skin mask is enough for you to process like oh he did. Oh that's so that's all I need. Your brain. Does all the work for such a fine balance of like and that the body audie on top that he switched the clothes that they think that. That's what's going on police right. Like all this sort of misdirection stuff. But he did some regular escape deep stuff. Some skin removal new face escapes also basically putting Buffalo Bill to shame he liked jury rigged a human face in like five five seconds. I was talking about how this show is television. Now like the the x files rips off this. Yeah this movie's visual Palette and then every show on CBS rips off the X.. So like yeah. That's why now we live in silence of the lambs world. Like the thing about television knows. It's so graphic and you see so much violence that's fine whatever ever CSI in criminal minds Svu and all these shows don't exist wound a show. I love did a lot of that in this movie. I always forget how non gory it is. I was gonna say it's crazy because he doesn't sanitize it like he deals with it. I mean proper weight of these are horrific things happening. And you can't sugarcoat Gra coat them but it is a rare movie of this ilk. That does not kind of glamorize and ask you to get some perverse thrill from like how fucked up. It is one of the most horrifying shots in the movies when he grabs the guy. And you have that shot of Hannibal like yeah biting the camera. Essentially you see him kind of like biting eighty MCI but in another movie such as Red Dragon. Yeah he would then like tearaway like blow away. Some chunk of flesh face will be so fucked up back to the guy. He's the woman. Yeah he's got the right one he's got a little. It's a little less. I mean the car thing is like your reminders. What much more I don't understand it? It's just like this is is not normal human interaction and also Charles Napier's just watching it being like Jesus Christ Straits holiday. That's all he just goes into a robot when he's doing the Repeated ka-shing listed on his the banality of evil thing as much as he then like still like. Put It in a nice package and like put on a show for them. It is the fact that like you know you watch something like mine hunter and it makes it a lot more glamorous than it actually is. I Love I'm not saying that in a negative way. I'm not saying that negative way I'm it's A. It's a different approach yet. Yeah because one of the things that this movie does is kind of at times. Feel like a documentary. I actually think that mind hunter is like kind of breaking the silence of the lambs thing because it is deliberately saying we don't show stuff. Yeah sure shot is the show that that realized scary about silence of the lambs. Was that conversation member station right terrifying. Yeah one hundred percent. Conversations to Air France became room with a person like this is terrifying. Yeah and also mindhunter. I think it's just about like me reading a wikipedia entry three late at night of some serial killer and like you just sort of like slowly reading it and you're like like that's it. Why am I interested in this right? Why do I WANNA know more? Yeah why am I suddenly like so frightened. Even though I'm only reading thing right just so weird fascination we have with I wanNA understand why a person would do this or what they did is it is so beautiful that clarisse ends up being the one to catch him because She is trying to just finish off. All the loose ends the fricken fake out. Yeah the thing. That should not work every time I wanted to work. So it's like everybody's ripped it off once you've once you know what's happening here like it's not gonNA. Yeah every time every single time and then one of the greatest action sequences all time is is the night vision see. Yeah even though. It's very brief like you. Think of it as very long tense there. It's not that long. Because the the concept is so terrifying so to second he turns on the night vision and and Demi switches to his perspective. which we've never been in before right? I mean I guess I guess it's sort of like a jarring switch. Elsa love that thing where I thought I was with my hero. Now I'm watching my poor hero be like stocked in the night title and the questioning is great leading up to it the moment where Buffalo Bill realizes that she might catch him and he like stifles a laugh. Yeah like a really sad very interaction. Action is really interesting then goes for the gun and then she goes down to the basement. And you have that Amazing Brooks Smith seen of her being like. Don't worry I've saved you and her just being like fuck sake. Give me out of here now as he got a catch gophers issues. Like like she's like. There's No God in every thank you. There's none of that of climate little bit. A female cop is rescuing feels gray. Like I think you're GonNa join me in this pit and five seconds me now and it's the whole feelers. The dog down which is being innovative. Everybody in this movie gets to be smart. EVEN BUFFALO BILL GETS TO BE SMART and it's just like that makes it so much better. Guess one hundred percent of the sequence because we know the space kind of what he lives in the basement is like but when you're actually exploring it and the perspective of the hand held shots it is. The mosques is flying around industry playing in the back on that moths grew another classic. Demi like let me I want to look at these guys basis for a second. I want to understand these as people beyond just like exposition people. It's like what you'd go to your grandparents house named the basement. They'd have a bunch of Weird Shit and they'd be like don't get too close to the pit you'll fall into the pit liked liked the fact that it's someone else's Weird House that he took over and put like half of his shit into it but it's also like half stuff he just hasn't gotten rid of. Yeah and it's like you see. Yeah the almost like there's a map of the US and it's like there's somebody else hung that's another life that we we don't get any part of the house I feel like are some of the design Zayn and I might be wrong. It's an Eugene is there is a game yeah they kind of did a little bit of like touch to Buffalo Bill with the corporation. That real bilas was like Ted Bundy and Ed Geene like some weird again. He has the Ted Bundy. Like blurring the lady with the cast and all that but it is nice that clarisse solves it independently calls Glen and he's like we figured it out but like good job right now just like finish it up you know. Do the follow up interview view. But she goes in having accomplished everything on her own so she is fully loaded to be able to handle the situation right. She's her hypothetically. And then it's just some the most terrifying shit in the history of Cinema Herbie. She's I'm sorry what herb is useful. You want some of the most horrifying shit name is doubt congratulations. It is just like the D. level of like restraints and sort of like the precision decision of the timing and the blocking on the bills. Pov through the night vision goggles reaching out to her face constantly almost touching her but missing sang and foster just is like killing that scene. I mean playing the complete as I. I don't know how they actually shot that man. No I don't know what she could or couldn't see right but she is perfectly playing someone who does not think that the killer is that close to her but understands that she is is at immediate risk. His hands are out and he's coveting. I know I mean Buffalo Bills Kinda turf if you think about one hundred you get your happy ending. She and of course. I'm having a friend for dinner right. I mean there's a great craig closing line tie pretty good. Yeah I feel like Hannibal Thought of that. Six years ago. He was like man. If I ever get out and I get to do an ominous communists phone call. I'll say that that is the thing that do not have a wreck. Lecter wrote this movie. Yes it is the thing that doomed the public into thinking they wanted to see five more Hannibal movies ending such a tee up but it's a tear for thing you actually don't want to see him follow through on. That story doesn't really matter not really. Don't WanNA see him eat. Anthony held that long. Walk them like like head on the weird romantic undertones. You don't WanNa see Alexa back to lecter. Yeah yeah that low walk away to me is always just like I. I take it as he disappears into the crowd. That's just like they are monsters among guests exactly it's so effective that he never fades to black the fact that it just stays on and on and on and on. It's just like somewhere now Hannibal. Lecter is existing outside of this frame. Yes getting ready to shout down a jaunty little little hemion hat and his way in a wig. He's got long hair glasses. Yeah Hopkins put that costume. I was like yeah. I'm doing this. This is this this is me for this is my this is my life took his twitter account now. Him Incredible Okay boxoffice game. Let's do it February me. Fourteenth Nineteen ninety-one. I just want to say this is the era when I was paying a lot of attention to the box office so I might do. Yeah this film premiered at the Berlin Film Festival where it won best director and then came in to the February it opens number one thirteen million a pretty strong opening morning adjusted for inflation. That would be thirty. Wow you know so like a good opening president's Day weekend so it's a four day week and the domestic total is one thirteen one. Thirty thirty thirty two seventy nine was a huge hit and worldwide. I think it was two seventy nine also worldwide crazy well overseas one hundred percent yes. It's just a big old law so fucking hit okay. So number one thirteen sounds lamps number. Two number two is a it was number one the previous week when it came out was a huge hit of the year that I feel like is now forgotten and it was like getting big movie star going series idea what it is the big Easter but he had not on Sirius before she she had not gone serious before. I mean not in a leading role as more of a comedy actress. I feel like this is her are being an Oscar. I can be in a thriller. Okay she was a cardiac stress and now she's going to be in a thriller whoopie. No I didn't I didn't realize assist movie was serious but is it Bert. Unaware it does not fuck but is Goldie no but is it somewhat of a Goldie ilk is that what kind of comedy I mean in terms of the she'd been in some Rom coms. Yeah is it make Ryan new situ correct richt final total on sleeping with the enemy. Please ninety one. Oh one huge hit. Wow a movie really forgotten like people people do not remember sleeping. I genuinely came later that year. Eight eighth biggest film of the year term for sleeping with the enemy remake And you know the of Yep Yep that's Only watch it at night like the other big hits of the year. Terminator two Robin Hood beating the B.. Sounds of the lamb city slickers hook the family weird right but like all of those movies have at least some cultural tale right right. This is the enemy. Is that number eight. Oh okay yeah I guess I remember the movies about like things being cyclical and culture always being this way. This is a perfect example of a year. Where like almost everything is some sort of reboot or secret fashion or something because of the father of the bride naked gun two and a half? The big hits of the teenage mutant Ninja Turtles too right. I saw these fear which is a remake like that's like Hoity toity Rebe Star Trek six. The Prince of tides of course was based based on DC comics based on a second genesis. It's actually weirdly patient of golden axe. Just no one ever talks about that. It's it's based on the trading card series by Tom's now number. Three okay is a new entry. This week It is a film we have long discussed doing on this podcast. Ben Is this is a king. Ralph came round was pumping his fist. I knew a King I was. I was literally literally GonNa make a King Ralph reference earlier. This don't WanNa take that from Ben King Ralph such a good movie aesthetic because I don't like AAC snooty people hate. Oh I don't like I don't like aristocrats Like people who are bullies. Because you know you're not as smart as them King Ralph Ralph and he's like like rock and roll and I like sandwiches and Y'all are weird guys named Ralph that's true that's true of keep calm you right now. They want to know if you WANNA be king rounds. King Ralph Series Documentary. I go and kick the Queen out of her chair Outta here. Here's the thing I want to say about. King Ralph's poster. Things I love. Okay one the billing John Goodman Peter Billing yes no tool made it to the to the poster but he has to be below only two go right to its classic. Double Tagline one tagline explaining and to as a proper tagline. Okay you know what I mean where it's like yeah this this is too to complicate it. We either tagline like two weeks ago on Lawrence was a normal lawyer. Exactly so the regular tagline is the tagline. You'd expect a comedy comedy of majestic proportions. Good tagline put at least like okay. Take your fucking mouth. It's a great tagline very very good. Here's here's the top tag okay. That's so funny here. It is a great tragedy the royal family leaving only one heir to the thrown. Not so funny laughing. You don't think it's a smart business practice to sell your comedy by saying a great tragedy. The following I believe these poster people sort of figure out like how your eyes would move across. I feel like Goodman tool then great tragedy. Oh Oh scans across now. Here's the queen's Crown but it's a top the head of Goodman sharing a shirt that says and I quote lost in a couple of dice on it I I hate I hate when I'm about to David. You seem to kind of broken up about the thought of the royal family that they seem weirdly invested in just. Because you've seen the royal family. I mean it would be sad looking. We all grew up. David David Contrada. I didn't want you to okay number four. The floors numbers four and five of the box officer to the giant hits of Nineteen Ninety. Okay one won best picture and one I think was probably the biggest movie of Nineteen gotta be home along. That's correct not order no home alone which are respectively fourteen and fifteen weeks into their runs home alone. Can you tell me the final total. The final total home alone was to twenty two eighty five. That makes no sense which adjusted for inflation is six hundred million billion dollars money. It's it's infinity war right adjusted for inflation home alone. What if the wet bandits were in? The new event owns that movie. We now Kevin Kevin Feige should make it. He's he's back Clearly loves working. All the time definitely isn't baffled by questions such as like what's it like to not have been a movie is the only thing he loves more than being in movies again is talking about those movies. Dirt there Disney plus home alone and they are Disney posting. It hits Nitto for bags. Yeah some of the other teams. I'm sorry that's going on PECI PAS. She plus gone fishing again. Nine heads in a Duffel bag is my aunt. I don't know I could have could have the third good Sheila movie. My Aunt Fanny is trance. Culture Nicholas. She wants to go poss. She's the only suspense to allow play transforming. Speak for the community just because it's like because she's in a movie let's just so rarely work takes them back up on that screen big movie. La Story you got never ending in story to so two stories good movie never seen him have very good You have nothing but trouble opening this week. The Chevy Taste Bomb White Fang which I remember watching videos occasion being kind of freaked out by. Yeah and awakenings another Oscar hold of yes a weird film. You're the best in the BIZ. Primetime program we're I can't say right now we're working on. We have a season to pitching to get sponsors and stuff so there is a season two in the world. You cannot say what it is becoming a my hope is that I will be able to say what it is when this episode drops. Don't do that on twitter at Ti. Helen tastic One of the best follows On the Internet and also this is a great place to plug that I think you're interesting is coming back as a series exclusive Jason's talking Jay Leno No I also have a book about the X.. Files also show that. I talked about monsters of the week. The complete critical companion to the X.. Files and the real reason I'm here My scripted. Show Arden is started season to December thirtieth. We hope we haven't recorded anything yet and this is early October. But it's a podcast. Yeah Arden Arden. It was season two right now so please go listen to that check it out trade. Same Fun best in the best. Absolutely yes thank. You're talking about yourself. True and the divine producer won several potty awards for best podcasters MM. I'd rather not talk about. I made the mistake of campaigning as supporting but if if we missed anything listeners. Sure it's time of year. We need some ratings. Some reviews WANNA instead of tweeting at us or an up and of course you could still do if you prefer. Side is perhaps maybe rating a little rating of CAN I. I make one less pitch to the listeners. Please I know March madness is coming up. This is where this is coming on January. I know you guys are thinking about what that lineup is. I don't know what's going to be in my wife Libby Hill TV awards editor Indie wire has made it a goal of her life to be on every movie. podcast talking bicentennial man and Columbus Wins News. Break it last year. Please vote Chris Columbus listeners. I want to make my life hell because she will have to watch bicentennial man dozens of times one of the most unpleasant movies to watch. Yeah truly it's just one of those movies. Where like you're I just kind of off the screen where you're like this is still going on but also you constantly feel feel like their ants crawling on your skin somehow watching it makes you feel like physically like jittery? So if you want my wife Libby Hill to be honest to just be like Griffin. Why are you talking about this right now? I want that more than anything. Vote Columbus Bicentennial Man Baby next week Philadelphia That's right we're we're we're heading we're heading to the I dunno whatever thank you. All for listening refused subscribe. I was GonNa say something funny and my brain just fizzled out happens. Thanks for good or for Social Media Laima government for a theme song job on Pat Rounds for our Goto blinky like a cheese state. I was thinking math together fast enough. I'm no good will hunting the go to the bye-bye shirts and patriots fan around this time maybe right before right after this will be releasing our official performance. Let's review of the marvel cinematic universe not since the star wars days gathered is coming on with us and we're going to review every credited character dirt in endgame and I'm sure talk about this no probably So yeah check that out and As as always Jay Jay Leno slides dams. Like if you can. Why do something very unexpected merchandise spotlight? Sure go ahead okay. So in the late Nineteen Ninety S. Todd McFarlane key of the comic macbooks. I marvel comics. Yes couns image weirdly like owns the Edmonton oilers. Maybe or something like Nick Hockey. Also at one point time owned both Sammy Sosa and mark mcgwire's record breaking home. Run Balls Weird. He Buffet Balls uh-huh he lost them. He had to sell them because he named a a pedophile mobster character in spawn comic after after a hockey player. Because he's such a big hockey fan. He was like Oh phone Easter egg and then the Guy Sued for defamation. He had to pay the guy like tens of millions of dollars. So we had to Sell his baseball's was very obsessed with todd McFarlane as young man largely because at the peak of spawns Cultural Relevance against all the toy companies wanted to get the rights to spawn. And he was like fuck you you guys suck. I'm starting my own company. And everyone's like this is stupid you're going to fail and it succeeded became compiled lateness and the spawn toy. Sold really well but the thing that pushed him over the edge was he started a line called movie maniacs. That was what if you took all the the interesting characters. In adult films toy companies have been afraid to touch but also who are the only visually interesting character in a movie. So you couldn't make an entire toy line off of that movie but you can put them all in as a grab bag okay. He did a series. That was like Freddy Krueger. Jason voorhees leather face When Michael Myers I was maybe in the first batch that then became one of the ten greatest selling toy lines of the along with hot wheels and Barbie and shit so media looking like Hannibal Hannibal and for years and years? Everyone's trying to get Hannibal and no one could cause hopkins was like. I don't want to be a toy. Like Hopkins was like always shutting it down and it was like ten plus years of wind up until someone was able to make not McFarland people who had left macron on started on company to Hannibal. Lecter figures one on the stretcher. One which is really unsettling of Hannibal with the the Billy Club Being attacked attack the Guy Being able to attack the Jesus Christ but the thing I wanNA show you folks this is that one. That's that one comes with all cell. The thing I want to show you folks that I find very funny is the series of mini mates which are Lego. Ask Figures of the signs of the lambs crew and electric co-op. I mean you talk about the I think he says Mickelson yeah sure but these are the Silence of the lamps. Awhile yes there's Clarisse okay does speak to. How sort of iconic every character in the movie is that they can can be recognized even in this form? Here's Buffalo Bill Holding them off with a painted on nipple rings and then a hand up Hannibal this bizarre. Hannibal looks a lot like Nixon does it. Yeah it looks like your best friend to add to the merchant day SPA now a it's him on the Gurney. Yeah makes sense. I've always wanted buffalo bills necklace. Everyone knows recog- get that necklace. I think it looks cool that's great.

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