Marsha P Johnson
Hello. And welcome to career is facts the podcast create history from around the world until at time. I'm alice. I'm Irene I'm a lot. And today we're talking about the drag Queen and activist Masha Peterson. We have some content warnings before we saw we always start in transfer homophobia and transplant become violence, including also be the use of outdated language and slurs in court swint out trans and gender neutral coming people as well as miss 'gendering. And quite and swear words discussing police harassment and violence imprisonment and abuse imprisoned out quick people, and they will we mentioned of knife and gun violence. We'll also be talking that sex work, including minors engaging in sex work as well as sexual harassment and assault that we mentions are HIV aids and aids related illness and death. We'll also be talking about harmlessness drug use abuse. And either Dory's suicide mental illness, including forced hospitalization and medication and drowning if any of that something that you don't want to listen to feel free to skip this episode in check out any other content. So I wanna talk a bit more in depth than usual about sources who. We get into the episode prop up. I feel like this thing that we say every so lucky in that that a lot of interviews out there with Masha herself, which we have on video and books about Stein will also provide generally at least a short biography, sometimes based on the interviews that authors of done there is no published biography. That's just a book about Masha. That's a weird that is incredibly weird to me is someone working one not that came up in my research, but somebody might be while they working on one. If you're working one, please. I think people should be doing that now. But a lot of like primary sources in terms of people who knew because she was born in the forties. I liked the people she grew up within who kinda knowing her life with her. Yeah. Are in their seventies. Now. Yes, I think we should get on that. Yeah. We should. Yeah. But this is a pressing thing regarding lick oral histories with a quick community in General Mattis specially regarding transitionary yet. Like a lot of the oral history projects focus only game lesbian elders yet. Yeah. So all trans history kind of lake full out of living memory makes me angry Gail angry so other there are several recording with Masha narrower also interviews with her friends that have been recorded talking about. Yeah. So luckily resource that we have that is good. But definitely more. What could be done and nothing that. I referenced is material created by the activist group street. Transvestite action revolutionaries all star which Masha helped to found the two. Main big sources on marshes life out. Both documentaries. One is gold paint night mind that was made in two thousand twelve and it space mainly on interview footage done with Masha in one thousand nine hundred two at interviews with people who knew that's what on YouTube. So you can go and watch that the second documentary which was a major source with us for this podcast is David Francis. Twenty seventeen film that death and life of mantra patriotism so this documentary follows the investigation of marshes death by Puerto Rican. Trans woman, Victoria, cruise it largely focuses on how Mahesh's death sits within the wider context of transphobic violence and mode as across the USA. So the deck alive of Masha Johnson has been the subject all a lot of controversy since rain Gaza who is a black. Trans activist aside that France who is assis- white queer man had stolen not only her ideas to make the project, but also archive will video footage that she had posted on. Oh, okay. Gossip has self eventually produced a fictional short. Film about Masha in the hours before the storm will. Riots which is titled happy birthday Masha was it mashes Beth day in the house before starting. We'll watch the us in August. So wasn't Mahesh's birth. They heard about this before the people sometimes say that they were at holy birthday party or something. So Hamilton is in depth, but will talk about it now Stein website, which we will do in a few months now people say also onto it wasn't it Stein. While they were at marshes Beth they potty at such and such but marches birthday is not at the same time as the sun will rise. So I don't know if she had an early birthday party that near or she just decided to have a potty, and it was referred to incorrect about they what's going on interesting go find out in June. Probably why and find out in June. Let's talk more about we don't know in June. So Gaza made these claims about France France denied the accusations saying that he'd been Weck night his project since before he became aware of gossips project. And also that quite there was room in the landscape for both bills with very different stories methods and purchase a feeling these things on mutually exclusive like he could have been working on his project before he heard of her's seeing the footage and stolen still. How do we constitute stealing historical actually, those losses? So like, I'm not denying that. You know, it's possible. He's unethically used someone else's work to be clear. But if it's just like all hybrid material that show. Sorry ran across. It didn't earn the material that she'd person on our k- someone that was aren't by out gay activists to twelve is upset his name is Randy become okay at he hit know a lot of footage obtained tamasha because he knew Masha and he had allowed gossip to post that on online. Also has that puts don't line. He hasn't YouTube channel and stuff. You can go a low salt racehorses that other video that was one which had previously being often, and which allows Byan group which earned the copyright or had some claim to it because I don't know exactly what I think member of legwork pitied, the taken the video was prominently featured in the video and they asked for it to be taken down because of copyright issues. And this was linked to that group's general campaign two arrays trans women from the history of pride. So that was funded Acilia era who is a transparent impasse, and I'm not gonna pause anymore. Judgment on her identity to I've done the research, and it was. At pride toolkit about the exclusion of trends and jetted on conformance people from the Krimpen. Oh, this is a whole thing. Yeah. This is a whole thing. So a lesbian group had taken down. Rain Gossett says in a tweet that she stole that food. I'm not sure exactly going districts stealing that footage and replaced it as a form of direct action against this kind of a Rachel Ryan. Okay. And is her complain about France using it that he reconnect solicit or just that he used a because it seems weird to complain that he used it if she doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. And especially like direct action is kind of publicizing it. Yes. We had to be upset when somebody does that. Yes. So it seems broadly speaking from what I read, and I made it as more evidence act homelands will come to latch contradict that that France didn't legally steal any of the footage. He used. He did source permission from the appropriate copyright holders, and so forth and most. Of the versions of the footage. He used on the versions that rain by stood on her Mimi is that often Phya quality versions that he'd solstice wear cycle. What rain is claiming is more that she did the work to find an collapse these videos. Yeah. And France on the work. She had done create a project that had a much wider range amnesty law more funding than predicted because she is a transformative. Tha basically she's saying that she did a lot of labor that went on it, and that she was unable to share because of I guess discrimination because she's a trans woman and a black one and gossip was then able to use that work and kind of get greater acclaim for the. Pinecone? So I come here if he said, but I presume that he doesn't credit her in any way, he doesn't quite at heart anyway, and he has said that although he viewed the videos on. He didn't really lie. Anything you fall on that footage of the battle. Elsewhere. I don't want to go into too much detail about the nitty gritty of how much he might have got from her. And when he saw what footage and who had what idea win, and so forth is that something that if we wanted to could go into their like is it easy, or is it possible to reconstruct the timeline of when he accessed wash there the first time because I'd imagine not I did not very long article. But does go into this inasmuch depth as it can be going into. Okay. I think we can definitely conclude that he was working on a project about Masha before he knew about gossips work as for when he specifically viewed the video as I don't think we can say that a lengthy article on the blog because it was a long complicated. Basically what I will say is that regardless of exactly who saw what were when I do think the anger, it's understandable since the success of Francis film and its ability to have a much wider rapes every available on Netflix since they will send you ability of France to gain funding, and publicity, and so forth represents the why? Issue of privilege in the way at wipes. His men like France applauded and received funding for telling the stories of marginalized people. Where the marginalized people themselves. Can't find the platform to tell their stories. Yeah. Yeah. And I do doesn't Arnott's on white filmmakers, and what wide Cisco makes in this context and funders to do more to combat is issue. I'm not gonna go into too much depth about what France says he has done to work towards that. Because it conflicts with what Gossett says, and you can do that. It would be a long cost if we talked about that in depth on that being said, I think it's worth noting that France did use his privilege to send to the voice and work, Victoria crews. Who has I've mentioned is the trans woman of color and if not his documentary, I wouldn't have been able to find information about her work on Masha. Elsewhere given got its accusations against France. There have been calls for people to boycott the film. How boycotted it? But I think it would be remiss of us to ignore Victoria's work because of how came to us. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. So I did use this documentary as a source despite the controversy, that's what I wanted to say about solicits, Iran Lee, barely scratched the surface of all the issues involved here. And there's a lot to be said I do have a few nights before we stopped the upstate. We've become parodies. So that's as you've probably noticed. I'm using she pronouns from Ostrom. We're gonna talk about delays in the episode. You think she hap Ryan's is pretty much the accepted. Norm. I think I've ever heard. I think I've ever heard any other pronouns used for Marcia. So I was just going to run with them some of her friends who knew her do us. He him pronouns just like a couple. Okay. But the boss majority is she and that, of course, like transport issues. He pronounced that's another if yes, we had to say that's where I've seen people use him Perennials. And the other thing I wanted to night was I am not using some outdated terminology will offer the community. Chiefly referring to the word transvestite went is not the accepted model mode for what that's the question. Is not the exception modern word for people assigned male at birth wearing feminine clothing. We'll the reasons for that. All I mean, it's something we'll have to talk about. And what daytime the upside I guess what I was getting at with. He's that not a accepted current would. Or is it not the accepted cart would for a particular? Experience. I have seen this wet around to describe specifically PayPal assigned male at birth who provide address in feminine clothing, but oddly came back to a feminine gender identity. My understanding is the sort of lake experiences of gender within link, quote, unquote, crossdressing transvestite is a lot more complicated than. Yeah. Yeah. So it transvestite is the word that Masha has self used and members of our community is to describe themselves. And we'll talk later on one about inductive who is in that community at how they present to them. So I could have used a different web. For example. I could have broken down this committee. Eighty into its individual pots as we might understand them today. So like game AOL, drag queens, trans women transparent and non binary people. And so on. Yeah. Or I could have tried platinum modern way to group them together such as as I said been people assigned male birth, but presenting feminine at least some of the time. Funky. That's going to make a good good. Aside from the issue of that being a very clunky way talk about a group of people. I think that doing that detracts from the understanding that these people had of themselves and also be understanding that these people saw themselves as a community with a shed identity, which they referred to as transvestite again. I have the transient story is not a subset of gay history. But they're into twine to new need to let us all earn it discussion again on the left me. I want to say before that was actually put gos- doesn't were. Oh, we're doing. Is the we're not gonna token days today not Martius involvement in the sign. We'll we'll be covering that in depth in it sign up. So later this year guess when Masha was born on August twenty fourth nineteen Forty-five into a working class African American family in Elizabeth New Jersey, she was assigned male at birth. She started wearing dresses from around the edge of five, but she soon stopped because of sexual harassment from the boys in her neighbourhood. Yeah. People who sexually harass children. Like are these like, boys? I'm not sure if they're exactly the same age as hub at that around. Age. They're like other kids now from Elliot teens Masha was regular visitor to New York squeezing centered around Christopher street in Greenwich Village. Her mother, however believed that quite you'll gay you're lower than a dog when she graduated high school Masha says my mother didn't have shut the door. She took fifteen dollars a bag of clothes and left New Jersey for New York. She says she was free lost false Noah many que- homeless kids in New York at the time. Probably all oh this Hello. There were many homeless kids in New York at the time, including what nine is straight queens who are assigned male at birth and had been rejected by that families because they either were attracted to men or because they were considered to a feminine when many of these kids belong to racial minorities, straight queens, used a mix of she her and he him pronounce very travel. Some of them would lead to grow up to describe themselves. As trans women all those Scott themselves as gay men. Various other queer identities. How did we end up deciding okay entrance? History was separate. How how did we do this demonstrably? We know who is just so early Oviously historical revisionism yet. Like if you look at this. This is not gay history. This is not transit through this is boys, and you can't disentangle them. So many of these kids went by feminine names. And it's amongst them the Masha settled on the name, Marsha p Johnson. So Johnson is taken from the name of Howard Johnson's restaurant where street queens used to retain -ly eastern leave without paying the Bill O hundred. No that Johnson, and it's not the same. She was born with either to how Johnson and just be like, no other. How how Johnson even like an actual person running this still or was it like restaurants tonight in one of those restaurants where you know, it's like chips bar and you walk in. You're like, oh you chip. And they're like who the hell is chip. Yeah. I don't know anything about our Johnson all this restaurant and not paying seems fan doesn't that? They didn't have any money. Fifteen dollars, and she's spent by now how much is fifteen dollars in this time. Well, we'll tell late two story where she spends two dollars on a chocolate cookies. So I've heard the story that's about eight packets of truck to cookies. Okay. Okay. That's gonna last year alone. You ask what piece I did? Once when she was in court was on childhoods sex work all across dressing. But went in court martial was asked by the judge. What the peace would four when she was told to give full name switch to pay at nine mind. The judge his name is Bruce right and was nine as turn of loose. Bruce. Annoy time for these trivial charges that he's constantly. Brought in often said well, that's exactly what I'm gonna do. And he dismissed the case. Pretty great. Bruce. Wasn't just a one line in court that was consistently what the pasted vote, and what did Masha come from Masha game originally went by Michelle? Okay. But she decided she didn't like Michelle, and she changed it tamasha. I don't know why she's like that. Maybe we should just heard Marcia. And she was like that's like my current name. So still Rivera who's also kind of part of this scene at this time won't name Sylvia at birth and was given the name slowly by another straight Quyen who basically said to all this cold, Sylvia around here. You can be Sylvia. And that was it. And that was it. So somebody might have to said, oh, hey, what name isn't used at the moment. Take masha. I feel like she was cold. Michele before that life is a coyotes out connection there like it was like Michelle like feeling it out. I've got something transient will do do that. With like, I really like like, Jane. So Masha was in her late teens by the time, she moved to New York that well, but she's finished high school. So what was seven hundred eighteen and this was on the older end of age for these street greens? Oh, yeah. There's a very kids see to give you an idea not just age, but also of their general values and so on one group formed again around nine sixty five called the Kamanga quiz. Okay. So what letter all the words come wander and queer beginning with or is it unclear and it was just a spoken. It's spelt with sand Q. But I am Agean that it was more commonly spoken than written. And maybe they were very, okay. Maybe it's like how queer aspects crew was. Well, just looking at these kids names in doubt in the Gulf and spelling variations. Okay. So it's quite likely that that wasn't a set spelling Yang onto the quiz that makes sense. And it was we quiz. To the first rule of the commodity quiz. Was that you had to be between age eleven and eighteen eleven you say eleven. Yeah. I don't care for that. At all domestic the rules. You had to be kind to someone every day to make sure you'll make it was. Okay. Even be dirty who had to protect somebody who was getting beaten up. He was quia you couldn't wear bras or Goodell's and oh, okay. Is the leather lake animal tissue or do. They just think it's like tacking. Okay. There's so much more to pack. You. I'm going to clarify the ages of these people before your relatives rules because it does sound like something that a group of kids would put outside like tree house. Juvenile. Yeah. So severe and Maggio from late childhood, basically. Yes. Masha met wins who will be it wasn't eleven. Oh, our Ciller is one of the eleven year enrolled in this context. Yes. I still went and Masha met in nineteen sixty three. So I was eleven Masha was seventeen when Masha found out Sylvia's age. She was horrified. And based on you at home, obvious reasons, why it wasn't at home. The reasons why Marshall isn't it time. She also found out that Sylvia hadn't eaten that day. So she took her out for ninety nine cents spaghetti and meatballs. And this was the thought of their lifelong friendship how much none. My most beginning meet people. Yeah. This was like the lunchtime special wet ROY Melia, which was the. Make Italian restaurant. Pretty much lived off the spaghetti and meatballs. Yeah. So this as Masha was like a mother to her Masha provide you with support and advice such as getting Herod job at Childs restaurant. Where marshals were waiting tables Childs restaurant that is just the name of the restaurant cO Childs restaurant and has children, and she just got live old. I guess I didn't consider this that unlike awful coincidence, or is this business model, I think there's an awful incidence chills into what be how to put on makeup. I wonder what the lake kind of like trends in makeup were at the time. You know, how now he's like, no don't. Right wing and stuff. Like, we have photos of Masha actual you've seen them laser in her life. But yeah, we have photos up around this time when she's a teenager around what age do we start to get photos of much? I'm not sure I'm not judging an age, okay. She was fighting the very famous for all her in the light kind of straight is yellow we, you know. You know, anyway, very famous by Andy Warhol was done in nineteen seventy four. So we have to look at from at least seventeen but at the moment way in the early sixteenth soon. What makes it look like I mean, that's something we could look into. But I have mentioned like we could look into what like just general early sixties makeup. But not quia kids wearing on the street that would be such a fun oral history project. Do you like just tell me what like quit fashioned was like when you again? My fashion is never the same. It's just like mainstream fashion as as. Dell tells. In says, Queen fashion. Spink's lane. That's quiff. Anything is so much St. to Sylvia is kind of indicative general treatment of people. She didn't have anything really. But what she did have she'd give away. So if somebody wearing something they said, I like that brute she'd take over the bridge and give them the Birch. Very nice. A recurring thing of like hearing about Masha many horrifying things that she experiences that I've never thought about stories just generally being very because she's just seem so like sunny joyful. She's have friend James Gallagher describes as being Roman who'd up. That's good. That's good. And he remembers once went he and Masha two between them. She spent those last two dollars on a box of cookies and then walk down the street and giving out cookies to other homeless people. Oh, hang get a plate of spaghetti Maples for dull. But it's too for. Yeah. Thinking about that about spaghetti at maple two dollars for cookies noble price that you can buy. Get spaghetti Maples ago. That's not the point. That's the cookies people could eat another friend, Augusta charter straight up competitors. Hannett lose Fisher Fisher became like very well back. Nice and well known figure in the quickness of New York, and they used to call her the mayor of Christopher straight straight Wayne's like Masha generally supported themselves through doing and generally presented feminine while walking Masha explains why she began wearing dresses again, saying I found out the pudding Ugo because a little boy made opposite go that's the most money you're gonna make her creepy child. That's back to kids. That's harvey. Horrific motto says that part of the reason for this was many clients were gay or bisexual men who wanted to pay for sex with someone of the penis somebody. They thought was a man, but they didn't want to run the risk being seen with a male presenting sex book. I I mean with a man like with a boy, that's true. But with a boy, yeah, that's fair point all those west right clients might never find out Masha was assigned male at birth. How do you? Doing. I heard it or history thing, I think maybe on Mogo M pages podcast. What is? She at one from the vaults, which is a transistor put us, which you should go into about trends sex workers in Canada a few decades ago, like they talk about how they can like deal with situations in which the clients never found out that they will send mail both John again, I was made them about a sex assigned mainly both who clients never found out about this who had us a lot of the John M made they strap when that was like talking to strap that on only. I don't think Masha was doing this. But like, that's the thing that people do did I made I guess I remember the shaken live above. So what we have the time. This is the land. Seems presenting feminine also increase the risk on violence sex workers the right time models with a man for money. For example. He pulled a knife on home when he discovered that. She wasn't a woman. This one was more generalized violence tolerated at sex, regardless of their presentation was a recurring theme in Marshall's life. She was shot by client. Oh short show in like, the Loa back coal. Yeah. The bullet was very close to they could no take it out. So she's had a bullet only gonna think it happens seventeenth several decades. She just had a bullet in high con imagine she had great access to healthcare. So like did she walk off? Mentions kind of ongoing healthy she's the coolest, but it may not have wake. Maybe she got just got super lucky. I mean other heels she goes, but yeah, so have roll along with things like drug either dice as well. As suicide brought a qualified violence street. Queens lies very dangerous and often very short. So one of them Tony Lanigan Schmidt. For example, says that most of those who he met on the streets die within four years of meeting them. Ooh, god. So like not even out of the teens. Yes. And not even out of the. Yeah. Do you have any comparable statistics about like young who's now? No, I looked up some license. His just about trans women, but I didn't look up just about sex Kazmi. So both cola who is a gay activist to actor sort of father figure to these kids says the wall doing sex work was the only time that the ever went drag drives what he hit for Masha. At least this isn't true Chee began to addresses in her day to day life and also as a part of drag troupe hot peaches say began. So so she was wearing dresses as very young kid. And then she stopped the harassment honor the kids, and when she mentioned New York and she started doing sex work. She thought weren't guesses again. So Masha joined top pages in the nineteen seventies often sign that she was sick child restaurant. With all the people used to do was sit and complain about the hamburgers Cosmo's changes. So she decided instead she was going to become one of the world's biggest drag queens. Okay, embiid. So she's done without peaches into the nineteen shaven into long with cheese. Nineteen. None of the nineteenth. She was still part of it. Yeah. They went to England touring nineteen ninety co what kind of money is making from will be seen. They look in the low budget show. Okay. I think that making big money, but they're going to like overseas along the way that they do what how that was fun ROY anything. Okay. I don't know much about it. Maybe they get more famous later. Really? I don't think maybe just wealthy eccentric. Just love them and lived in London was like come over guys. Maybe if you the book about history of pages. Peaches and peaches made it is that's fine. Peaches still exists as like a drug short Martius bowl in hop. Pages was mainly singing in the words of her brother, Robert anything Masha couldn't do was seeing horrible. He could not see that radio the passing like really sing. This is why they brought on the lip synching because whether trae queens can sing this stop them from deciding that they shall say. I mean, this old jurist minute of technical skill. Masa has incredible stage presence, and she's got a leaned in and embrace that good Jimmy chemistry. And I'm sorry. I'm pronouncing that wrong. Gimme ran hot pages. And he recalls watching Masha obliterate assume on stage when that sounds pulsa do the rest of the court like he doesn't mean it put Louis, I even through the ethic applause from the audience who loved it, but Jimmy down with Masha after that and went through the phone line by line, total housing and improved seeing crowd. Applaud more or less off to that. I think the last so she did do as Jimmy taught up at one night and the still applaud but maybe do the ethically. And then calling that she just went back to regular style. Before the on. I guess if she had like a comic I Cobb cigarettes ain't going on. Yeah. It does sound like this more going on the just like to sing. Like, it sounds like she's doing something kind of of God with moguls or something you can watch videos. Okay. And see. He did say that her kind of sage presence in UAE was good Connerly captured on video. Yeah. Which is the way. That's fortunate fact of film when Jimmy asked one she was doing and why she wasn't taking the bus she entered. Then like better this way. Apparently was true. So you lost before fashions like at the time still gonna talk a bit about Masha stress cents. So Masha Slough was largely moulded by the fact that she had no money to relate. So one of the outfits that street queens used to it was what they called drape dress, which meant they'd get a hotel room. Takedown comes. The top and bottom off the curtains, and they had chew with lining and cousin and step inside on a belt and that was dressed. That's amazing. And then just woke out, and this you could read the high tolerance by the atlas just got enough to go in that is the coolest. I just love to picture whoever walking in there being like, oh, it's happened to. Giving like increasingly ugly. Fabric and just being like, I don't care this fashion. Macho would find all the close up shops American cool with Trump's low shops thrift stores stores thirsting or secondhand friends. Or from Augusta described her ability to find good dresses that the Selbe is as an awesome. She ovens slipped onto tables in the flower district of Neo and the people who grew very fond of her that leftover flowers, which she used to decorate. Fruteau Christmas lights all else. This was just her natural hair. Sometimes she'd also exit she used to go with beacons lodge. Shirley, no logical. Logical lodge goes well when she started doing drag seriously responded, I'm never ever done drag. Seriously, I always just do drag because I don't have the money to serious drag. And there was this little cloth divide between people who call themselves, drag, queens and contrast, straight queens who had more money and generally just drags performance while than in day to day life, a sex, work and street queens, who we've talked about and drag means generally will down on street, queens that drag Queen is a world encompasses both these groups. Yeah. People do make the distinction. That's that distinction. They're making it's a class dictum. So although Masha originally started preventing them 'cause of Cossacks naturally says she also says when I became a drag Queen I saw just live my life as a woman just late into gender conversation that it's doing that. I was about to say Russia made by that. What did Masha mean by that so mainstream modern sources generally described mush as transgender? Woman Neo times for example, data series called oval where they published a bit trees of people who had died and not having a bitter the time. They were part of marginalized groups, and they include in Masha in a group of fifteen women as part of that series. There have a people who disagree with the idea of the moderates transplant. They disagree with the idea that Masha is a trans woman generally points language, that she used to describe herself physically the fact that she didn't use the word transgender which wasn't in common. Use at the time. I was about to say people do this thing with like, well, they're not using the modern term that we use now for this. So they copy that at all. Yeah. I mean people's impossible standards. So people to be regarded as trans and the timeline in which they'll allow actual transpeople to exist is so small sometimes it's like tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. From looking at interviews the most common wasn't macho did use to describe yourself. What transvestite which I've mentioned it drag Queen does Queen and she has occasionally hotel at the boy, especially when she's told me about her youth. Okay. I mean, I think there's also comes back to mention a few times of this episode and a few times recently where gay. History and trans history seen as being one hundred percents separate things, and if gay history has any possible claim over the thing if it can justify that at all than transitory copy here yet like obviously Masha didn't conceptualize being transit one hundred percent the same way that I did will will patently like a trans woman today did but like so what? Yeah. You can't play that she had the same experience. Oh, conceptualist identity in the same way as a game in today. Those or a gay man then came out we will talk about Motlanthe sounding of how her experiences different from the experience of gay men later in this episode in an interview in the early seventeenth Masha does provide us with kind of an overview of language of the time. And what she understood that meant thera conveniently. Yeah, that is a really good show. Martha as a drag Queen is one that usually goes to a bowl. And that's the only time she gets dressed up. Okay. I live mentioned drag Queen was also use mobile up time. And then she says transvestites live and drag transvestite is still like a boy a very manly. Looking very feminine. Boy, what Manley looking Semnan looking boy, she said this. So I think that's all. Okay. Right. So I think basically what she's saying is trying to best died presents feminine thoughts is. Is how to express this man, necessarily or is? Is a boy she said that if we're talking about appearances here that couldn't compass SIS gentlemen, who with them and clothes most of the time at also trans women who don't have any access to home until don't want to. I think it doesn't come. But this things and continuing definitions does more about that. She says finally transsexual spends most dependent drag when you're transsexual, you have woman treatments, and you're on your way to a sex change. And you never come out with Email quotes. Yeah. There is a really interesting thing you see in sort of like a late twentieth century sources about quit people transpeople, whatever we've established the terminology is and impulsive hellish nightmare from which whatever escape whether it's like this road divide between like transpeople medically transition and transpeople door whether kind of conceptualized as being like two completely different subsets of the population. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the way Masha kind of sees that is. I I it's just includes trans people who have not cannot whatever reason medically transition and transsexuals is those who have in the persons of which is also a standard that is sometimes applied backwards onto people impulsively, or even I mean all people who are laugh today saying like, well, if you can like get them home, and like have these five surgeries or won't. They went to these centuries. I say the jury. Then you're not really trans and the lake the general kind of understanding that other transient is like, no that's not how anything is not only because like you can be trans about wanting to have so dri Otake woman's, but also because HUD, difficult access to those things is there any indication that Masha will like anyone at the time that you read is differentiating between people who wanted to take hormones, but couldn't and people who just went taking holman's for whatever reason. So I haven't batch talk madness we'll have convenience because the next to you ask Masha after getting headed to find these times was if she herself would be considered a quite preoccupied transsexual, and when she was considering going through this exchange not if but when when when which Masha answered this yet, I'm planning to go to Sweden, I'm working very hard to go. She never did. Good. Ably quite likely, she'd never had the money. I mean, it wasn't incredibly hopes process to put yourself through. Yeah. Like, you know, it's it's obviously like very financially taxing now in any kind of like massive change in your life is emotionally taxing. But I feel like people don't understands just like surgery is physically taxing. I'm Marsha has. No harm. Let me let alone money officer surgery. She has nowhere to go. Yeah. Yeah. So many obstacles. But yeah. Masha Yuli labeled us helps a transvestite rather than a transsexual. Although she does mention he had that she would like to have surgery. So is the standing that. She would like to like is that if she had that surgery than she would like shift categories of become a transsexual. I think that would be our understanding. Okay significance is in like northern. How you understand yourself or your intentions, but in line, what is actually already happened to your body? Yeah. Yeah. I think so I think so. And she also talks about the issues that the people shake holes transvestites face which are unique to them, and which may not be faced by transsexuals chiefly discrimination in employment. So she talks about how if she was able to act. That's hormones and have surgery and say she made able to find employment in which she was bad as a woman. Okay. She could be a woman in that job is an indication that she all link again people at the time think of these categories having connotations of class or race to the drug. Winston thing. Not that. I come across. Okay. So yes, she talks about how if she was able to medically transition. She could get a job where she was read as a woman thought if she cannot access medical transition but wants to get a job, which she can be a woman in that job. She can't do that. So she says I want to see the day when transvestites can go in and say my name is Mr. so-and-so, and I'd like jobs, miss so-and-so. And she has, but I think it will be quite a while before natural transvestite will be able to get a job K. So you've spoke about her planning for surgery. Does she talk about women's I found a mentioned all taking home? Okay. She does mention that people straight coins around this time somewhat taking hormones there is one quote, where she's talking to us this female friend, and she's looking at her breast and says, you know, I've been trying really hard, and I only got these tiny Bresson Ugo, 'this the normal breasts that's unfair. What exactly trying hard and bold icon saying so regarding what I say about employment Masha plan? This is one of the main reasons why she was unwilling to seek steady employment, and why she never did electorally have steady job because she would have to compromise our identity in order to well that's clear strong position. And like I said he'd job other than sex or sex calls in a steady job. I mean, I guess sex is a steady job, but very highly risky Gabala steady. Seeing I mean, it's possibly also just it's unreliable income. Extent. Yeah. Jeanine resume went in an apply somewhere. I just wanted to avoid giving impression that like sex work was in a row job yet. That's enough. And I haven't copied down the words to express this concept yet point like, obviously, it's fine. If she was like, yeah. This isn't good enough. And I want a job in like what? Yeah. What Maggio says about sex varies? So this one where she says, oh, you know, I just went into sex 'cause I could to see if I could kind of because I wanted to and there's another quite where she says, you wouldn't go into sex unless you had no other option, and this was all new so how she felt about that and feeling probably changed at times. We don't have a clear answer. I mean, she had show. So yes, she gets short. She gets threatened with knives on very first day to attend to people who make the argument that Masha is not a trans woman. Having now the terminology. She did use people who are trans woman generally, take this terminology out of context. So tied-in occasion as a transvestite illustrate that she was simply a man who liked to addresses ignoring of that word, which which told us, and they also highlight the word drag Queen to call to mind, the modern image of a drag Queen generally as opponents. Artist? I nor the defendant up straight coins. Who also encompassed by the time at this time. I mean and also ignoring the diversity that exists today. Yeah. Yeah. The drug community Darren trans women who are drag Queen on binary people who drive greens. And and this has always been true as well. When we talked about stormy up a few weeks ago and the drag Queen she someone's trying to win and that was in fifty sixty seventy s I cannot reiterate enough that if they're like some game in involved in thing, then we've aside this game end history and early game in history. And that's just not true off. We talked before on this podcast about uniting dealing with the fact that queer people in the past didn't use the same language to express themselves that we use, but this can be harder to keep in mind, and to do as we get closer to the modern day. And they are using words that we still use which might even appear to be superficially, similar, but which have different nuance and different. -tations that we have to understand and then take into consideration when talking about Dr ENC's so during the nineteen sixties and into the nineteen seventies. There was general police crackdown in New York on the quake meeting, which is best night sleep. Because all the stone will tonight sixty nine which we will hope it just going to sink, which we won't be discussing today, but we should continue both before and after that and this included targeting gender. Non conforming people through on New York state law against court being mosque. Join any Mana disguise by unusual on natural time that was super code. Yeah. Yeah. Wissel out of the dogs. Can't here. Police harass straight queens with questions. Like, are you a boy, or are you go and beat them up even threatened to shoot them all to throw them in the hudsonville sex with also illegal Masha Senate nineteen seventy nine that cheap man arrested at least one hundred times for prostitution after she stopped counting. She regulated short stints in jail where quit people while also harassed and assaulted by staff and by fellow business, not constantly talk about the lost episode this episode, but if you've listened to maybe just keep in mind, hell, similar veil, and again because I tried to make the point at the end of that upload that a lot of the things that finding Ciller experienced very reminiscent of experiences of transplant ofter that time up until now, and I feel like a lot of this episode has like for bait nights in Las absurd. Yeah. Like just saying response to this police crackdown around nine sixty nine Marshall became a part of the activist group the gay Liberation Front. The so the promised to welcome drags on translates as they call them drags yet drags. Threading things like. Address. Try to dress. I have no sense here. Whether that was my real terminology. Oh, whether that was the jail they were wildly out of touch with the drags drags on. But I'm also concerned. It definitely wasn't the reality. However that they were welcoming they claimed see swimming example, who in the would tell Masha and Sylvia that by wearing jewelry and makeup and dresses. They were copying the trappings of oppression. And also they went really women since they could reclaim them male privilege at any time. Obviously, that's not true. That's all translated garbage. And I'm glad that no one says that stuff anymore. On the other hand how this supposed male privilege transvestites welcomed by game in the organization's multiple age. This was simply I'm at misogyny saying a lot of gay brothers. Don't like women and transvestites from my women. Them and simulations politics time. Also fact up gay activist Randy Waco describes his activism at this time as an effort to convince people that quite high sexual just like everybody else, we didn't know wear makeup and wear dresses and have full set voices and molest kids, and communists, and all this. Why it just keeps going? Middle class people like everybody else. God bless America. When. We'll talk more about him. But you don't say stuff like this. These attitudes also translated directly into the political actions of the United Nations so nine seventy eight the which is the gay activists alliance. Remove transvestites from an antidiscrimination Bill that they were campaigning for in an effort to make it more palatable to straits is what I feel like there's a lot here. This beta load in here in that sort of a gay activist section that you just talked about of things where I'm like things to unpack here that I just don't really both on pecking because they continue to happen retail about the time. Yes. Just everyday lives clauses them. The noble gay community transfer via sort of and I mean, not even specific to link the gay community throwing transpeople into the bus for respectability, but like Amy given rights movement that you have his done this with a mobile owner. Vogue Rupe or less respectable group? Yeah. Yes sucks every time so much she realized if transvestites themselves nobody else is gonna stand up transvestites. So in nineteen seventy she ends Louis repair founded stall, which as I mentioned is the street. Transvestite action revolutionaries so much but Akron than gall. The actually flew about what word this Bill so stars was providing housing at legal aid, four transvestites and St. weights. Masha was the vice president Sylvia was the president. And Masha was known as the Queen Mother of the group and are fed the other members as children stars fast. Time was in a trailer truck pumped in a call hawk somewhere in Greenwich and around twenty kids lived in that trailer, truck, let's trailer trucks. Just like a like a decide. It's just a truck. This is American trillion tonal different in case confused. Yeah. I wasn't entirely clear. If it was like a caravan a trailer Lieutenant like a trailer park. Yes pitching. But nuts truck like I say that instead of being filled with like banal something with the people. Yeah. I I'm not entirely twenty people could live in that much more than couldn't like trail. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get the impression. It was more like a truck. Yeah. As we would call it Astro out semi trailer. But I did try to kind of look this up, and I was very confused uncuttable wait to go into this game. Game. Maybe from while they operated n lived in this truck about one morning so van Masha got with groceries to see that Trump was meeting. Somebody had dumped in the cabin and was stealing it. We threatens inside. Most of them get app, hopefully, all of them to get out. But there is a story that one go was incredibly stoned and didn't wake up until several days later when she found his on her way to California. I mean, the truck no one doesn't help this days. I mean, I guess didn't really understand what was going on into everyday. That sounds like a lie. It does sound like a. But that's the story starts next time was an apartment today rented, it wasn't an abandoned building had no functioning out, crissy plumbing. They did manage to fix it up selves. So they got these things working Soviet describes the attempt of her and Marshon to others, the boiler working, for example. She says full quiz that talking shit about nothing. We're looking at the tools. Shallow take apart? Putting the back together. Also. Masha until continued this X to contribute to the house. But they also made it clear that this wasn't expected of anyone living in the house members encouraged to do chores around the house and also to liberate deliberates from outside of supermarkets before. Sylvia, would then use to cook big dinners for everyone each night stolid even feed and babysit all the kids who lived in the area, so plus money from fundraisers, usually fundraising dances was used to pay Lewis for transvestites will straight queens in jail. Longtime goals included a twenty four hour hotline on community recreation center, a school and a bail fund and permanently bishops in their love. It. That star had political goals. So is included freedom of dress full people and the release of all transvestites and gays treat people from prison. I'd also included free access to women's Ingenico mation surgery and the right type correct gender listed on your ID. And the end of the list of goals in E piece of stars rising Revolutionary People's government. Oh, alternately as Masha said, we will even picking up a gun and starting a revolution. If necessary. Mixed feelings. Politically, very radical group. This is the depressing thing to about to date was going to say, very accents. Yeah. I could say oh face doing. This didn't help India staunch to the alleged gay organizations that we've mentioned to quit Randy again. Oh, friend Randy. How friend Mandy Mandy giving us an ideal some attitudes to stop said it was a bunch of flaky fucked up transvestites living in a huddle in a slum somewhere. Cooling themselves, revolutionaries right is dead to me. I mean ready with debt to me about the point. But he was like well as like unrestrictable PayPal who childless communists. Yeah. That was terrible. But that was just so weirdly like post me denigrating. Yeah. That wasn't like off a political reasons. Trying to just until cells from that kind of thing which is still messed up. That's like these people in particular disgusting because they close to zip wheel is closest to. Care for Andy. Randy later on. He is back. I mean, say how attitudes Durante shift will stay. Well. I'm just. I wanna go emotional world Costa about reading of all things. I mean, I guess if Randy come that at the end of this, look, I was a bad person back that I've changed maybe spoil his character attitudes like rand these and the issues we've discussed within GAC as Asians towards transvestites as well as they will find resources available in this communities star sage limited support from the border quick Midi, and I really want able to sustain themselves. So Masha and Sylvia were still very young this time. So it was nineteen Marshall twenty five all my God. And they're trying to look after a household like twenty four children playing for children who not only would be homeless. They leave this time, but they're dealing with issues like drug addiction and violence associated with sex work, always kinds of things in general violence when they go out so they weren't able to achieve all the goals. They had set up themselves and eventually on to. To pay rent. They were forced to leave their. I mean, I feel like giving a lot of resources Jamie, Volvos goal would have still been lying. Wildly impressive. Very high like overthrow the government question. Whilst the final goal. They continued to alright all the activities then house until Monday seventy three eventually though is patriot out as well. A bit of a turn and ninety four the artist and he will urge Masha as part of a series called, ladies and gentlemen, which featured portraits of largely lacking Latina New York, drag queens Martius friend, Michael musters says for antiwar hall to a polaroid of Masha makes legendary and this kind of increase fighting increase how well she was known Michael ads. She was like the transgender version of a Campbell suit, Ken pretty. Very weird about this entire thing. Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna tell you things to make weirdo. It's like the whole like portrait projects could be really cool project. Could be really like uncomfortable j just depend so much on how annual conceptualized what he was doing. Yeah. Yeah. I don't have many quite some Warhol about what he thought he was doing out there are quits out there. But the thing I wanted to take us on is that what hall was commissioned almost a million dollars to produce this portrait series Masha was paid fifty dollars. Yeah. That's not ethical. All right. No. That's not right. What the hell Andy something about names that ram with? Wells when mantra time to visit a shot where one of Warhol's prince from the series of was being exhibited. She was throwing out shopping. Well. Coq ten brands and then upholstery and green. Let's go back to Alman. Randy what he's back. He's back. Random lived in New Jersey and living with Randy was a young quiz whose name was Willie brushes what Randy's to communities and adopted song 'cause he was living on the streets. And k that relationship seems wholesome. Okay. Okay. I don't have any reason to think they're legit was not wholesome. Okay. I just ashamed that was linked together. No. I don't think Randy has a husband. Okay. It's also I think pot household will goodness. William you Masha. And Randy kind of encourage police say way from Washington that's not the kind of people you want to be hanging around with. But on a very cold. Winter's night in nine thousand nine hundred eighty Willey said Durante look it's freezing out there countering Masha Heim to sleep. Yeah. She's got nowhere else to say. He said, okay. Multiple Cain hindsight. Randy's place and she never left. She lived there for the next twelve years. It became very good friends. Okay. You'll. Like such a did on that first night. They must do this all the historical question interview. Eric Marcus who runs making gay history. Yes. That's a great a whole of history injuries. And now he's making them into a cops didn't end with Randy Marsh together. You can listen to that interview. That randy. I think makes that comment about stopping looked up. Whatever he said what he's will. He about of time where he was like this is how I saw it at the time. I think there's an amount of this. How sort of the time, but he's not apologetic. And it's still quite present injury. Was Don I think in the early eighteenth or K Randy's attitudes. Don't have an explicit courts from Randy's saying that he's attitude's changed. I would say they probably have he was very very instrumental in keeping the fight to investigate marshes death in QC footage inside his home today. He's got index cards of all the leave. He's he's Berta graphs. And as I said, I think early he's got a lot of video footage on YouTube interviewing stone with people trying to kind of keep memory alive. Real. So what's read these husband's name Iraqis? Husband's name is David Cone. What are they like what does he do that? What he does. Randy mom's not dako- lamp show. Business. One type of our. He runs it run airline can't David sort of winning ceremony. Imagine lacking decker labs. On ninety eight twenty and I was like, no, I think. Think the win be appropriate. Niece. Can you be anyway, Davis married to rent and Randy? Taking ready just supports. He makes it the election of maybe he dons supports the ball on his lap income. Yes. Husband the child I've taken it and Marsha dog as well as adult. Well cars. There isn't. I went to either. All right. I'm glad that they make together and fosters fine with Randy. I guess we'll be fun. Masha lived with Randy and thoughts and the child and the dog for twelve years. I guess I watch the call. Yeah. Probably some interesting cocaine too. The both just in terms of that very lake trans women moves in with my family. Yeah. Glad it was there. Not to save me from having to explain because. So Marcia just keep working she has be Masha eventually stops doing sex. But I'm not sure exactly win that happened. With is he live like as far away from her neighbor who he lives in New Jersey. So he was like right across from New York. I was going to ask you like very early in the episode where Jesse was was that my boss was yet as well. And I was like no we don't need to know where stays yet. New Jersey's next New York. So he lives in New Jersey. But like Masha gets on the train new every day. That's not a big deal for the safety of his household. Randy will not let Masha common go from the apartment dressed as a woman. Okay. Sorry. She gets dressed in the morning, then if it's Windisch with no being coach over it so much going to be over her clothes, and she gets on the train that win that want to train. She takes off the Kurt and she pulled out of her bag, and yeah, I guess named I like how often people were just like interest on the train. I do this all the time to just like still. The one thing is should that. She can't carry her surround with that too heavy site when she does that she has to leave on kind of being men's boots. Welsh dress. Look, look, it's not about look Masha nest. Randi's husband, David who had mentioned for aids related illness. And she was with him when he died in nineteen ninety Masha south was also found to be HIV positive in ninth nine, and she involves herself in aids activism, especially in campaigning against the exorbitant price of experimental aids drugs. Yeah. The American healthcare system shore is bad chores banish, you'll is been and its treatment. All quit the aids crisis rules bad even for it takes. Bringing us the table. So that I haven't really talked to that. In this episode is Marshall's romantic relationships. No. This is true actually did have relationships with men. I don't know much about them during the nineteenth relationship with a man named. Cantrell, candy, really. That's true. You're also. No. Candy, wasn't part of the cuisine. So he kept Masha away from other transvestites and heating courage hurt going to quia BAAs and socialize instead in straight balls and hang out with his straight, friends and say this. That's can't examine contri-. Masha to candy in interviews as house call who I mentioned white Eliane activist chain you Masha faster fifth husband. Okay. Who husbands may have been? I do not. I mean, I think this is thing here kind of where when this nurse sort of legal marriage that any long-term relationship is a husband. Yeah, we're joined get that so much for like. Yeah. If you live together for twenty years, but you know, get married and you'll man the woman, then that's not your husband. Yeah. He lived here for twenty years, and you never get married because you legally cant then you don't know is that your husband kinda is your house. You're like David and ran here's I mentioned did have a marriage wasn't legally recognized maybe marshawn candy get married and someday, I don't know much about candy overall. He was shot and killed by a policeman in March nineteen ninety two. Into in nine hundred Marshall also talks a bit about sexuality. She starts talking about her kind of introduction to what sex was in her early teams and said that that time I didn't think people had six period. And then she had I'm still like that. I think you wouldn't do that. And she lives to hold of six accent? You wouldn't do that? He was. And she includes I don't think like that would. What they just like the general population. Liked to have sex. So what she's saying there? She's like, I think about this. I'm like that's not really appealing. But apparently people like this. Yeah. So with that in mind, I want to rise supposedly that Marcia was sexual. Well, I. All right. Tell me what that comment is based in title that quick. I don't know anything more about what sex Masha Myo might not have had side of work. She does say once in a life. She thought that the homosexual experience would just be the short fleeting sexual encounters that she did for job. Yeah. I don't have any more to say about that. Except that that is in my whole casinos documentary paint. My mind to mention is available freely on YouTube at one of the major sources about Masha slide, and I have never heard anyone from the possibility that she. I giggle Masha p Johnson sexual nobody's talking about it. Okay. So I guess that's how as history has done. Talked to an ice actual sex. Just like a friend of mine about this. Once who said that they thought maybe they found sex work easier or like more of a sort of comfortable joke for them because they didn't conceptualize sex as a kind of significant personal thing, which was interesting. I don't know what just came to my mind here. I don't really wanted to leak to motion not may have been experienced much to we don't I was gonna make is much less. Interesting which is just that to possibly ace figure so far Masha PJ Horace will. Have never been compared before ever in the history of human language now, both he. Yeah. Yeah. I just think it's a shame that nobody's ever talked about this quote in this context. I hope one guy will stop doing as history and stop finding things like that in recognizing them as potential gov history where I think a lot of this quite go on marshes talking about how she let about sex. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think will kind of come out like history will come out to be this thing where it turns out to be fairly common. Like historical figures. We'll talk about the lack of. Yes ex. But someone's got to put the pieces together yet somebody's going to sort of stop putting these people into a group. Yeah. I mean, it was only like a few decades ago in in classics someone put all of this to fill like what what the skull called homosexuality. Angry and was like, yeah. This was a thing that had like social rooms. So yeah, that was only few decades ago before that people like. Imagine being the peasant who wrote because pederasty Pagel his name was Ken was cast over respect you deserve. I think we do say on this podcast discussed on this Goss. But we do say pretty often that it's very hard to do eight history because it's very hard to kind of find evidence that people weren't innocent something a one doing something as much say all these people live together for this many years that so yeah. Yeah. Well, and also like a lot of sources quay history tend to be legal nature like, you know, we know about this because so once they go to rested during that. Yes. You don't get arrested having sex. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. But I do wonder, you know, having come across this. How much is actually just out there? And you know, I'm sure. Like, I think the major difficulty is just that the ground isn't broken yet. Not that it doesn't exist. I feel like I've seen I can't think of the top of my head. But I feel like it's not that uncommon that I've seen people's know personal letters or diaries where they talk about sex and sort of express indifference. Yeah. Yeah. So into that is quite a bit from took place in June nineteen ninety two on the six object line nineteen ninety Marshall's body was found floating in the Hudson river, head to talk about death was ruled a suicide there's enough suspicious sudden Kansas surrounding it. But we're gonna talk about that. I mean, a transient of color is founded is already suspicious and also consults. Yeah. Regardless of anything anything else. Yeah. Yeah. And police definitely did not give it the investigation. They should have regardless of the circumstances. Whatever police didn't care. Yeah. I was going to say I feel like. Rolling the suicide. There is a very kind of easy way out. There was no one else involved. She's dead. We can still thinking about this yet in harmed instigations, Victoria cruise. Does get hand on the autopsy report, and it says possible homicide on the autopsy report and that is decided they just went. That was her death by drowning high death was by. Yes, he did drown. So broadly, speaking, the three likely causes of death the fest. Maybe not likely is suicide as it was ruled by Karna Masha did suffer from mental illness throughout her life. Which I think kind of made it easy for them to say, oh, she just killed herself. But had mental illness generally manifested as psychosis and her friends night, it led to being suicidal, and they say that she was not suicidal in the timeline up to yell the piece of evidence that she was giving away belongings which something people sometimes to before they kill themselves that she has done this constantly fascist. Always been giving my hip balloons because that's what she does. The second. Possibility is the Marshall was the victim of queer once so several witnesses have given evidence points to this on the night of the fourth of July, which is the last night when she was saying alive one witness so much again to a car group out men who were harassing people in the area that night another witness saw. Oh, her walking towards the river, obviously terrified and being bullied by two men. Still have by the river with Amen named Michael who was nine for harassing people. Any later boasted about having kilter will the question here, then another option of house motivate Szekely. Oh wish we will talk about. Okay. Okay. But yeah, all this evidence existed at the time. It was given to police and the northern and now went off they claim they never received the sevens. Right. This is why the play place. Yeah. The final possibility is that Masha was killed by the mafia. This the mafia was really volt the quizzing. Because sexuality was criminalised, for example, like saints extending illegally couldn't serve alcohol to gay people. And so a lot of the kind of underground bars were run by the mafia. You couldn't serve alcohol to gay people or just you couldn't have Gable sell coal to gay people. What that was what the state liquor licensing laws said at the time in New York. Oh, that's bizarre. In front me. But that was the little say the 'cause que- Avaz were a legal mafia sold his opportunity to operate these ballasts. Yeah. And that was a very tight connection between the mafia and the quake media. So for example, was a mafia owned so in the months leading up to Martius death. Randy was investigating links between Christopher straight festival committee who organized pride events what we now. Call pride events so cold that time and mafia was mainly concerned that the mafia was profiting off phones extensively raised by the quake for the. He's investigation included the committee director jock and one of the organizers read Mahoney Mandy, tried to involve Masha these investigations any his campaign to kind of deal with this. But she refused saying, and we have this on tape that that was the sort of thing that gets you moated, okay. Following her death on July twenty eight the anti-violence project, which was a group investigating a deadly group that deals. With Squibb violence, the defined coal China. This was from which said tell Wendy to leave doctorine red Mahoney end the name that she can't quite catch alone. Or what happened to Masha Johnson will happen to him? Well, fit some pretty solid evidence here once one murder or another once again the antibodies project is poss- this evidence on to police once again police claim now never happened. The so into twelve thanks to the lane of activists. The case was reopened the cause of death is now ruled on known and the case remains I feel like I know I know want to I don't know we did it. No, she didn't just fall in the river at the placement mobsters, buddy. It was pulled from the river the homeless table in the area created a memorial from bottles and flowers, which Vadim place school about five or six months up head death. And this Plock diverse group of people who gathered around it's memorial. Randy said, I'm show Masha be more touched by this than the fanciest masses and Patrick's at her funeral people were turned away from the church because it was just too full for them to get in was she religious to religious. She was raised in a pyschopath Lian. I learned about a piece Capalle is the other day. Somebody told me what they all. Apparently, they like religiously quite similar to Catholics Anglicans, but there's like head figure of the church. Okay. Say she was raised to Prescott Palin. She was also very interested in Catholicism in that was kind of the major religion she turned to in her adult life. But she generally had very kind of brought out Jude religion, and visit all kinds of churches and houses of different religions in star house when they were in that apartment. They had an Ulta to variety of saints that they kind of being relevant to them. I interested to know which ones. So Bob Rae is one they identified as a patron pickle of. That's really cool Sint Mafa who is linked with transformation thing very important off angel. Michael was also one I'm not quite sure what significance then it's Masha was very religious so tan for a moment to Martius Genta and hope plays his dream. I contemplate visual with the head. She lived until today. She would cool his transgender, and I don't think that's relevant. I think what's more important from apple Specht of is that while tight whites is gay people have had great advancements in terms of rights, and so full since this time this very strong continuity between Masha the experiences, and what many trans people especially trans women of color are experiencing today, and as you've mentioned experiencing in the Victorian era. So I'm listening to sexual assault. Police violence all these things we've talked about continuing alarmingly high rate within this community so resembling twenty eleven. Survey of the US population found the wall about point one seven percent of the general population a homeless one point seven percent of trends, responsible harmless and thirteen percent of black. Trans respondents hands of the twenty eight trends moon victims in the tornado eighteen twenty seven of women and twenty seven people of color, especially regarding hate crimes. Miss genuine of trans women by the families by the media. And the police went talking about his crimes ultimately it difficult to identify these people as trans and to kind of gather accurate statistics and therefore recognize deal with this patent. So taking the issue of Marshall identity into today, if we only decide to acknowledge trans women if they've jumped through these impossible to jump through hoops, so accessing expensive medical treatment, also or using specific term and Ola g which sudden people have deemed to be the correct terminology. Then we contribute to this problem by continuing to place barriers between. Transpeople and recognition of the patterns of oppression that they have based starkly and are continuing to pace today. I sort of want to say or I guess Ray it right something ally said before because I think it's better to end on a note isn't so much about oppression. And I know a lie said early on in this when you did all the content warnings in spite of all the horrible things that Masha went through. He kind of always thought of life is very positive. Yeah. That's a family. And I think she consciously might at a season two boys be very positive person at always present a very positive face on trade all the people well to combat what she did experience in how I that's enviable strength character with that we've being queer. As fact, I'm Ellis. I raised I may lie. If you want to find more about contact, you can find us on social media on Facebook, Twitter Anta as clear as fact, and you can also Email us directly at Chris fact at G mound. You can. Find the best websites on pug bane on itunes or else. You get you'll put costs if you do find us an agenda. We'd billion not to write us and leave us review to help us reach a wide audience will be back on the first of April which is second anniversary went Jason ally. In honor of its final season. We'll be talking about quarter presentation in a guy with ferns and in the book series. It's based on a song of ice and fire. Thanks listening. And we'll see you next time.