Can A Burger Help Save The Planet? Impossible Foods CEO Pat Brown Says Yes


The mission is very simple it's to completely replace animals in the food system by twenty thirty five the use of animals as food technology eighty is by a huge margin the most destructive technology on earth and really poses a catastrophic threat. It's and what else I'm about to head up to Stanford for my thirtieth college reunion next week which is just insane all of this and this is the retrial podcast super enthusiastic about my life and about today's episode so thank you guys for showing up I feel very blessed to do this thing I think the word is reptiles Amphibians fish even insects and that has happened so fast and it's continuing accelerate because the driver is is grateful and I do not take your attention for granted so most of you have heard about this thing called the impossible burger a it's been a crazy month to say the least I spoke at the nantucket project a couple of weeks ago hosted conversations there with Russell brand either growing feed crops or grazing livestock and that land footprint comes at the expense of all the bio-diversity that previously occupied that land fresh water in the world and the biggest issue is that about fifty percent of the entire land surface verve is actively in use right now in the past forty years we've basically wiped out half the wild animals that were living on earth back then and it's just across the board mammals birds if so did you catch the video version I hope you did if you missed it please check that out not only am I super proud of that entire event I'm extra the land footprint of animal agriculture and overfishing and the demand for meat and fish is growing faster than population that's Pat Brown a big brushfire to get here to the studio today the Santa Ana winds are kicking up again which is a little anxiety provoking after last year's experience I'm your host this is my pod cast welcome did you enjoy the live event podcast within Q.. And Paul Hawkin definitely check out of an out spoke there hosted another conversation with Zach Bush came home got another couple of shows up then I just drove through Dr Zack Bush podcast favorites in fact Russell shared short clip of that exchange that you can find on his youtube channel check that out then and I imagine many of you out there have already tried it arguably it's the plant based Patty that comes closest to fooling people that it isn't in fact is surreal. I guess I'm officially old at this point but I gotTa tell you I don't feel old I feel grateful I feel energetic and home to perform at the live event and I jotted to tell you ride for another event called original thinkers which was super cool everybody should real beef and I think it's fair to say that the impossible Burger has become a bit of a phenomenon it's widely available at all manner of restaurants all across pretty hard at work at planning more live events just like this for two thousand twenty so stay tuned and we'll keep you posted on that I gotTa Tell You I'm a little bit wiped it out crowd of my team for the incredible production value that they brought to that still basking in the glow of that experience and we're already glow lots of fast food chains etc so what's the story behind all this how did it come to be and what is the intention the mission behind it all all today I'm very excited to host the man responsible for upending everything that you thought you knew about plant based meet impossible foods founder Pat Brown in addition to being a world renowned geneticist pat is a former Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigator uh rich role podcast hey everybody how you guys doing what's the latest how are you my name is rich role as well as a professor of biochemistry at Stanford University he's also the founder of lyrical foods which makes kite hill artisanal nut milk based she national Academy of Sciences in two thousand two he's a member of the Institute of Medicine and his numerous accolades include the American Cancer Society Medal of honor and the eases and he's the founder of the Public Library of Science a nonprofit publisher pioneer the open access business model pat was elected to the NAS award in molecular biology. Basically this is a guy who was moved action spurned into action by the urgent need which is as we all know one of the biggest contributors to planetary warming and he's doing this by providing delicious nutritious you to redress global climate change any founded this company impossible foods with one clear goal to eliminate a radical animal agriculture and much more environmentally friendly alternatives to meat and dairy directly made from plants so this mission statement is ambitious some would say and today he shares his story but first let's support the sponsors that make today's drop possible starting with my good friends at Roka Roka in order to solve the most important design challenges Roca athletes include podcast guests Jesse Thomas Anna Vendor Bragan who is a UCI women's Roca founded by two former Stanford swimming teammates of mine has solved this decade-long dilemma for me and so many others seriously after six years and thirty patterns coaches need corrective eyewear you need prescription glasses and shades that work under pressure that are durable that are lightweight and don't slip down your Dang knows when you're just it's no wonder it's sleek it's surprisingly affordable and it will totally change your relationship to work it's one hundred percent adjustable which allows you to switch positions is a performance driven eyewear company creating some of the best sunglasses and eyeglasses on the market they test all their shades with elite athletes and incredibly harsh conditions champion cyclist sage candidy elite Ultra marathoner and Javier Gomez who is a world champion triathlete. If you're like me if you slash rich role were also brought to you today by fully I think it's fair to say that it wasn't until we partnered up with fully that myself of active sitting chairs that you can choose from depending upon your style whether you're a visitor or a traditionalist or somebody who's just looking for simple supported standing position you can find it Asian meditation isn't just for the spiritually inclined it is a highly studied practice that actually changes your brain chemistry Sir it's audacious but you simply can't deny the impact that he and his team at impossible has already made and pat is a guy who's just getting started and whenever your body tells you to also has these awesome adjustable arms for your computer monitors and all kinds of other cool bells and whistles fully also has a wide variety all that's our okay A. dot com slash ritual to save twenty percent on a new pair of killer sunglasses or prescription eyewear that's Roca Dot Com Ford do all of us spent too many hours locked in an uncomfortable slouch so if you'd like to feel better at work let me introduce you to fully fully transforms the sending that trail or navigating traffic on a bike and you're in for a treat because historically this has been a huge challenge for me which is why I'm so delighted to share her those guys have it down you can literally do anything in Rocca glasses from biking to endurance runs to simply bending over to pick up your kid these all at fully fully everything you need to create an active office from Standing Matt's to conference tables Sofas and all kinds of other workplace accessories to keep you feeling achievable we talked about the difficulties in meeting demand at scale the important need for replacing food from livestock and we talked about land and our team actually realized how much time we spend hunched over desks all day long whether it's doing research or recording an interview up ground you down like sleep stories my personal favorite music and much more calm is meditation molded for the Modern World whether you're stressed off we covered pats background story the mission behind a possible foods we talked about impossible's recent successes water in Sun why you don't need to complicate technology to solve climate change I think this is a great companion conversation you my previous episode with environmentalist Paul Hawkins and also a bit of a companion piece to my conversation with beyond meat founder and CEO Ethan Brown with desks chairs and other tools to get us moving fully helps you bring your full active self to work and finally were brought to you today buy com while we're talking as a collective we're feeling more uncertainty and anxiety than ever before which is why I am stoked to have partnered with com- the number one rated APP for meditate these bad boys will not slide off for anyone who wears prescription glasses all day like myself this is like a total miracle another perk of Rocca eyewear is their home about the office have you been feeling stress lately if so you are not alone the World Health Organization in fact has named stress the health epidemic of the twenty first century way we feel at work and home with desks chairs and other tools to keep our bodies moving and our minds engaged there. Jarvis desk is the best reviewed standing desk online on program simply choose four styles and they'll send them right to your door in a home try on kit pick your favorite pair at your prescription syndicate back with their prepaid shipping label and reaching fast food chains like Red Robin Little caesars White Castle and most recently Burger King which offers the impossible walker nationwide which is good throughout the day so re imagine what were can feel like go to fully dot com slash rich role that's Fu l. y. dot com slash ritual and that one's from way back in the day episode one thirty six march of two thousand fifteen Check that out if you missed it the first time around irrespective of your thoughts on plant based meat analogues the impact of Animal Agriculture on our planet is undeniable and tremendous big changes are bowl to everyone on their easy to use APP you'll discover a whole library of guided meditations on themes like anxiety creativity and focus even have other resources have the power to make the necessary changes and it begins with our personal choices so with that I give you Pat Brown Oh and you my friends are done and right now you can even get twenty percents off your order if you go to Roka are okay A. dot com forward slash rituals description adt com dot com forward slash ritual at C. A. L. Dot com for slash ritual forty million people have downloaded com. Are we even get into it though I have to have to say that I didn't realize until I started digging in doing some research for this today gene friends over the years and I remember working with him very vividly and I was just struck with how small seeking to strengthen your focus or fall asleep more smoothly com has a meditation for you and right now my listeners can get twenty five percent off Akam premiums are mandatory if we want to solve this dilemma so please I encourage you to listen and listen with an open mind because I believe we really do tation has been shown to slow down the release of stress chemicals in your bloodstream giving you some much needed relief and com makes meditation simple and accessible here we are tap around welcome to the podcast thank you appreciate appreciate you making a trip out here I've been looking forward we're so so happy to have him I mean he's he's already made a huge impact he's a terrific leader Complete straight shooter you know find out why ADT COM DOT com forward slash rich role okay Pat Brown so we talked about a lot of stuff art and capable this guy was a very young age and somebody who demonstrated incredible leadership skills even in this junior position we that a few months ago you hired Dennis Woodside as your president arrival yeah yeah so Dennis paired together to work on a few matters and he just took total control of the situation in a way that I've never seen anybody else so I knew way back then that this guy was get athlete let's talk about the mission statement the why behind impossible food is for a long time you've got a big vision and huge mission that I applaud and I'm looking forward to hearing all about it sure well the mission is very simple it's to completely replace animals in the food system by twenty thirty five a huge margin the most destructive technology on earth and really poses a catastrophic threat I've known Dennis since Nineteen ninety-three Oh man we we were summer associates at a law firm in San Francisco way back in the day and have I know I haven't I I I haven't followed his career but I've heard that yeah yeah cool so I think the best way across the board mammals birds reptiles amphibians fish even insects and that has happened so fast and and it's happening it is growing faster than population and you know when you take Arjun the biggest cause of the catastrophic meltdown bio-diversity we're experiencing for all practical purposes nothing else really matters fifty percent of the entire land surface of earth is actively in use right now either going feed crops or grazing livestock and that land in the past forty years we've basically wiped out half the wild animals that were living back then and it's just sprint comes at the expense of all the biodiversity that previously occupied the land and as a result it is by an overwhelming it is the biggest user of freshwater in the world the biggest polluted by far freshwater in the world and uh what what's the biggest problem that I can contribute to solving what a humongous disastrous impact that tax it's land based animal agriculture and overfishing that that are causing this thing and that is even more of a I think risk to destined for big things and you know he's been at Google running the Motorola Division and then he was a dropbox a CEO and now he's with you which is pretty exciting he analogy has its I think most people know it's a major source of greenhouse gases more than all forms of transportation combined in that in that business but it really came as a surprise to me when I started looking for a problem to work on just trying to figure out what's the and the why I try to keep it as short as possible but basically you know hit the biggest issue is that it is occupies a huge land area for land based agriculture about the future of our planet than the Climate Change Issue I think people are increasingly starting to become aware of it but you know I got the path to founding it when I realized what I should have known earlier I wish I did that the use of animals as a food technology is yeah yeah and just a great guy he is super smart and also an incredible iron man you know that right it's don't like fourteen iron man's it's you know it's continuing to accelerate because the driver is the land footprint of Emirati culture overfishing which are the demand for meat and fishes funds to reduce their meat and dairy consumption by half this was two or three years ago and what happened was absolutely nothing the demand didn't go down using a incredibly inefficient and obviously quite destructive technology that underperformed in every way that matters including economics so it's because it's so inefficient the on a nutritional basis you know they about the issue is still not enough to get people to change what they love in their diet and so what that meant for me is that the pursing them anything like that it's never worked it's been tried every which way yeah I'm still trying now I know I pieces of an ecosystem the ecosystem it's like pulling bricks out of a wall it's it's extremely destabilizing and basic problem but anyway Blah Blah Blah Blah the When I realized this I felt that okay this is what I've got to work on I'm and I thought I was pretty savvy about environmental issues and you know I had been on a place died from a long time so I had no particular investment the won't immediately 'cause by setting up for a crash and so I don't think we've even begun to feel the full impact of of this and I also realized that very quickly that you're not going to solve the problem by asking people to change their diets telling them change their diets educating them as we get from animals are more than an order of magnitude more expensive than any plant based equivalent that's a huge opportunity to come up with a new technology eh that outperforms in every way that matters to consumers most importantly deliciousness but also nutritional value afford ability and so forth and I was sure that it's completely doable back then and I'm even more sure now right so that's how we're going to solve the album right so here we are I mean the the disconnect and the dissonance is huge when you look at the statistics as you said something like fifty percents listen and I think it's very important for people to you know understand what's going on in the world but the people who understand this problem the most I was at the and and literally almost to a person they went out and had steak for dinner. Okay so I think that pretty much tells you that knowing about the issue mm cop twenty one climate conference like three years ago and You know you have hundreds of the most dedicated environmentalists in the world at this event anyway to solve it is to is to basically frame it as a technology problem the world is going to continue demand these foods but we're making them the wrong way attention it's the total number of individual wild animals pretty much across the okay now most birds reptiles amphibians into out training yesterday's was he watch your back it trust me I think he's he's he went like nine twenty two in an iron man I think he's super fast he's a very as they become more and more unstable and once you get to a certain size basically there you know and that's all going towards cattle grazing and clearing land to raise crops for these cows pretty much right I heard and and you know I mean China which is used to getting what it wants when it when acid says for something asked it says not exceeding transportation which is what everyone wants to talk about but the the the mass species extinction is something that you don't hear that much about uh-huh is down by more than fifty percent buddy it's a precursor to species extinction basically you know you reduce the population the Amazon rainforest right where we're decimating these beautiful ecosystems at the rate of like one football field of minute or something like that continent absolutely and it's Asia and Africa where most of the growth is happening Asia in particular because of the population and symbol you could almost say of how out of control this system is that the dominant species by biomass overwhelmingly on on her so that's a big target for us but I think the real take on message though is that yes I I was in education for most of my life I'm all for education you talk about The biomass of cows alone exceeding every other animal on the planet by some ridiculous heavily grazed right fourteen point five percents of all greenhouse gas emissions are attributable to animal agriculture which is basically on parody old old right yeah and the so and that's I think just a striking Unlikely entrepreneur you come from this academic background you had a very nice situation all set up for you at Stanford where you were you too impossible like this evolution in your thinking to how you arrived at this point so walk me through that a little bit sure Moma's last time I I drove any distance doesn't matter where you are in the world what animals did you see cows cows cow's the occasional sheep of all arable land on the planet is devoted to animal agriculture in some respect man and and very large fraction of the non arable land is in and truly like fifty percent of our species have gone extinct in like the last fifty years or something it's not just to correct that it's not species going going up while the rise of the middle class there is contributing to that and I think Asia counts for something like forty six percents of meat consumption yeah Asia as a key quarrel maybe you know a crow more cows you'd probably see pigs and chickens but they're all inside you know these Campos where you can just on the slippery slope has a threshold and you can't come back from that and when you look it becomes evident when you kind of look at what's going on actually yes that's actually a very good point so the pigs on earth today outweigh every remaining wild animal on land by more than a factor of two it's land surfaces cows and it's completely consistent I think if if you you know a lot of people say how could that possibly be and all you have to do is think okay is a conference where I wanted to bring together economist and environmentalists and food security there's no reason not to try but I hear you but I think you're absolutely right you have to solve this problem as the you know have to meet people where they are exactly where they are and and win win on every access and that that would Persuade policymakers that this is something to try to achieve climate catastrophe and I think even you know at this point most people in the world including most politicians in the world acknowledged that experts and so forth so just look at the hypothetical scenario in which the entire food system is clan-based and in a rarely makes it happen and we don't have tyler disappointing. Yeah Yeah I mean just look at all the all the things we need to do to avoid it complete waste of time and and and the only way to change it basically is to accept that for these foods with a much lower environmental footprint and compete in the marketplace and basically make the this is a very real serious threat and yet you can't Marshall the political will to even make tiny steps towards the solution yeah so so so then I came to my senses and I realized that you know abundant evidence that a policy change would be good for the world tenure professor in Bio- Biochemistry Genomics Right and you are somebody who had been vegetarian at least or plant well I I was looking for something new to work on I'm just want I just I just wanted to start with a blank slate and that's one of the as for some number of years you've got interested in the environment and you decided to take this sabbatical so I'm interested in is a very interesting journey to get you important problem I could work on as I said very quickly became clear that this is not just the most important problem I could work on its overwhelmingly the most important urgent problem in the and the question is what are the economic impacts you know locally and globally what are the environmental impacts food security impacts what are the public health impacts and I organize it kind of you know bringing people with no preconceived notions but with pretty high confidence that the answer was gonna come out it's a win win anyway the point being that I did this kind of academic thing of you know bring you a bunch of people together to kind of look at the issues and then I realized that that was world and once I realized that I spent some time thinking about how to do it I made one false start which is that the first thing I did was I or all CS aren't GonNa Change Fast Enough People's food preferences aren't GonNa Change Fast enough if at all we need to find a way to meet the huge demand critics outweigh them all yeah and you're right we don't see a lot of them wandering around because you're in Keiko's and chickens away every remaining wild source of greenhouse gases more than all forms of transportation combined it is the biggest user of freshwater in the world the biggest polluter by far great things about the job I had Stanford is pretty much do anything constructive that I wanted and and I wanted to pick the most bird by morton a factor of two so you know it's it's a whack yeah all right well you're you're a very way what's interesting about the journey that you then embarked on is rather than just trying to come up with a plant based alternative that tastes good these industries go away not by attacking them but by beating them in the marketplace the good old fashioned American capitalist Medians we can save the world from you know environmental catastrophe that we're headed toward right now so and actually scientists get that and so when it came to recruiting scientists we've been incredibly successful in recruiting awesome scientists because the the way you recruit incredibly complicated as biological systems but as food you know like it may have started muscle tissue doesn't need to move problems that I was involved in working on and others involved in working on because basically the things that we eat as meat vaguely meet light we need to outperform meat from animals in every way that matters to meat lovers the need to produce energy from simple nutrients doesn't need to keep the cell membrane potentials active and all the kinds of things tissue does aces of the credibility of meat and but it's an answerable question and I felt like it's actually an easier question to answer than a lot of the kind of big medical I still believe the question why does meat taste delicious in micro terms is by far the most important scientific question the world right now because if we can like me like what is it inherent in this food that we as a culture embrace and love that creates that this product to understand it at a cellular level you know well I think that the starting point was realizing that you know there have been food great scientist is give them a really important problem that's really challenging and the best due by and large kind of Nice try but pretty crappy job of it and and it's just not gonNa work you're not going to you if you you're competing for meat lovers who are not looking for an alternative those foods are good enough for someone who's looking for an alternative or someone on Vegetarian Diet that wants something and I knew we just don't know how to do this and we don't really understand what is the kind of molecular biochemical it just needs to do a few simple things that are producing the flavor that consumers love and the textural properties and I felt like that's for for Millennia basically or at least for centuries plant based foods that are intended to approximate meets okay but the that's a hard problem it's hard scientific problem we need the best scientists we can possibly higher but it's the most important scientific question in the world I answer it and use that knowledge to make the most delicious crave meat products in the world using more sustainable and the craving or that desire to continue to eat it like really getting into the minutia and the building blocks of certain people in our rnd team where actually just about to Start hiring a bunch more people to roughly double this is the world just you know gravitate toward that so we get one hundred out of three hundred and thirty employees or something yes we have about different attributes that have different molecular Basi's in meat but focusing on the one that I think is the most uniquely separates meat from -actly yeah you know where to go so the beginnings of trying to answer this question how does that work so any plant based foods is the flavor and aroma profile that based on the flavor and aroma profile irrespective of texture when you cook me something magical happens that never happens with plants or Veggie Burger or anything like that which is that there's this dramatic transformation of the flavor and aroma profile it goes from being something very mild fly flavored with almost no the team and so if you're a scientist and I want to work on the most important scientific problem in the World Aroma to something that is has a potent you know Cook Meat Flavor and all the aromas than come with it and that nature it's it's one of the most important molecules on earth but it hadn't nobody thinks about implants meet and not a plant and so that was a really important question and you know I had a hypothesis system that tells us to burn sugars and simple things for energy to react them without whether it's just ground up into or or you know however you wanted and you respect of of what species it comes from you will recognize as being and flavor and one of the best biological catalysts known is him an animal tissues categorically have so potent catalyst super abundant in the things we call meet was you know a suspect and RND team who minutes is that it binds to him and shuts down those pathways cell depends on for energy So yeah it's ubiquitous in Bufford and I knew that and so I actually in I about we immediately started working on on him on day one basically because it was a suspect but aren't team did some experiments over the first few months ah very clearly established that he missed the magic ingredient that takes simple nutrients that are just like the things that you would find in vegetable broth you know well it's it's it's down part of that but basically it's part of the system that generates energy for the cell and so it's for example the reason that cyanide will kill you and and and I use this as an example people in the company of you know you've you've given our mission two way to figure out how to harvest root nodules and extract the team protein from the root nodules and assists as to what might be important for that could have proven wrong but basically the premise was based on it's based on observation actually that happened that there was a particular part of on legumes partner fixes nitrogen called root nodules that is the one plan hime is is is what binds to oxygen in our red blood cells and carries oxygen to our respective organs etc.. It's what makes red blood cells red oh ask vitamins sugars and fats throwing him and instead of a mild brought the taste you got meat and a lot of things that are risky You know when you do if you know the answer it's not an experiment and and we have to be era of the company's existence I spent a very large fraction the money that we had raised to start the company trying every it's a lot higher concentrations than almost any plant tissue one hundred thousand times higher concentration yeah and I think it would come as a surprise to a lot of people to discover that he actually also exists in the plant kingdom the root nodules inconveniently live underground okay so I thought I'd done a calculation that US soybean crop in the root nodules so I remind people of that because it's really important for people not to be afraid to take on something that could even be expensive we spent you know half the money mclovin that we could do the experiments to prove that it could generate the me flavors and so forth but it was never going to be scaled or economical and the hugeness of it and all the problems we need to solve to achieve it where we don't know the answer we don't know the route we have to do eh quite fearless about it and not talk ourselves out of of what seems like a good experiment or a good project just because it might fail because there's a category does something magical and that suggested that there was a catalyst that's catalyzing the chemical reactions that happen during cooking produces explosion of aroma and tough to to live because you have to dig up the soil these things are loosely adherent to the roots of the soybean plant so you have to and you can candidate all those steps and it basically becomes extremely difficult to scale expensive on top of which you know I correct yeah so basically I knew that distinctive red color you don't see that almost anywhere in plants but yeah every plan settle in every cell pretty much on earth requires him because it's part of the that we started out with pursue pursuing this idea it was my idea so I can I can acknowledge that it's a bad idea without hurting anyone's feelings thing it by fermentation and and that's how we produce it now right so it's through a genetically modified yeast a bunch of reasons why you know I ultimately came to the conclusion that this was not a good idea and so we moved to produce on something that ultimately failed and it won't be the last time and it failed because extracting an adequate amount of he contains more than all the meat consumed in the US and that I think calculation was cracked the only problem is that it's a very inconvenient place for that it's kind of a fragile system now you when you do that you have a bunch of dirt with the root nodules embed it and was really the major single major effort in the company and it basically was a dead end it it it got US enough of this team protein from everything from Para Museum to Mung Bean to barley from an environmental standpoint it's not a good idea to be turning over the soil because it releases carbon stored in the soil and so forth so there were there were came from this route Nigel in lagoons became too like cost intensive or labor and it was just it was multiple difficult first of all any good experiment might fail if not failing a pretty decent fraction of the time you're not you're not bald enough you're not doing an really interesting stuff ask because we we just associated so heavily with me products yeah absolutely and associate you know it's it's got a very shoe that really has a high concentration of him and that's because the the nitrogen fixation kind of chemistry is sensitive Loxton concentration so they have to be looking at as really the best one from a food standpoint and so we put decide I ki- mclovin gene into yeast and and that enabled us to produce sit at very large scale right so you don't have to till the soil and the same way and it doesn't involve that kind of labor intensity yes exactly agencies you know have already scrutinized it and basically no this this safe system whereas a root nodule who knows what's in there so there's more do you have to separate out the root nodules and in order for it to be food safe and and then you have to bio chemically purify the hime protein involved to be delicious did not evolve to be food okay evolution was not selecting was not optimizing the cow for you know the or team per proteins that we know of and try a bunch of them because given this approach it's basically just we can pop gene in for whatever he in protein teams the food to actually even us as to produce some protein based drugs for for therapeutic purposes and so forth so the FDA and the regulatory so ultimately after looking at a bunch of team proteins including one that I loved although it was never going to be good for food that was vivid future waiting for performance and food and it's really not very good for that purpose it oxidized very readily it's it's got a narrower solubility range and so forth question marks on the other things that the yeast have their own system for producing him they they make their own team and the hime itself which is best and and produce a lot of that for our use and we looked at like three dozen different implementations team protein only be more economical than than digging these root nodules out of the ground and and so we pursued that route and things these plants that have human them don't appear to be read no actually the nodules are vivid they are yeah you cut open a route nargile in like amplified up its own genetic system for producing him and then and then gave this soybean protein to hold and nothing like that happens with the plan I mean you cooked Broccoli gets warmer and much easier and and you know maybe caramelized or something like that but you know literally one of the very first things down this project was I pulled up some clovers from a little hill that's that's in my neighborhood and and amount the team so are the Najah lls themselves read or is it just because the he is in such low concentrations that these of different kinds of labor and it's actually a safer way to produce it because we use an organism that's already been well studied for safety for Houston but no other parts of the plant has that kind of high concentration and yeah which is why it was so tantalizing to me because you know not direction there are actually it's interesting there are soybean farmers who've been growing soybeans their whole life that have no idea that the that there are bright red on the inside super interesting so you figure out this thing and then how do you figure out the rest of what ultimately becomes the impossible we could I knew that we could produce it by from tation by just introducing the gene for this plant protein into some organism like east it wasn't clear how economical would be just that oh man these things are like practically for free because no one's using them for anything yeah it hadn't even occurred to anyone to even look in of to produce any particular texture juicing us it's just an incidental property that when you cook them which they didn't evolve because pictures of it literally take a close up of it you might mistake it for a freshly sliced steak and Paulo bunch of them and then just cut cut up the root nodules basically just wanted to see for myself you know is there really a lot of human sort of understood what by studying meet we understood what were the salient kind of biophysical properties of a protein that we needed you know to produce those characteristics textual change with cooking the juicy news finding that the uh-huh uh-huh small molecule cofactor it's a little a little nugget of a molecule that's that's held by the protein which keeps it side caller so it was like unbelievably beautiful to look at but no one would probably want to eat it Andy Reid at soil hemoglobin which is the same thing we'd been for was the one that performed best in food and and people often say well why didn't you just use bovine globe well the cow promise well we're still in the process of of we're still trying to understand how meat works better and better all the time but a match so we don't we don't need to use identical proteins there's nothing you know the proteins in muscle tissue again they didn't evolve act you know they they undergo a textile transformation and the leaks some juice and stuff like that so we her the other ingredients to create that kind of texture and the way that cooks aroma and everything else that you know is necessary for you to deliver on your and sort of early summer when the sort of the peak growth exciting plant you cut open and it looks like you just cut open a steak I could show you we knew relatively early on some of the features of the the proteins responsible for texture that we need aromas and so forth and because most of the flavor molecules that conformity flavor are fat soluble it literally is we then one interesting thing that that opened up his head well we don't need to just US soil hemoglobin We can just look at all the interesting you look at these things when I start realized that we needed a hime protein well I didn't realize that we needed it but it was kind of suspicious that we would I looked at him fine plant based way to match them So you arrive at your using potato right and understand because the fats are important for mouth feel they're important for on the cooking properties because the the melting fat contributes that cooking coconut oil or the other two main things Coconut and sunflower oil I have to look roughly in there and they're bright pink wow and yeah so it was very tantalizing to me that those properties right so anyway there are a bunch of a bunch of properties that we you know identified that were important and then of a delivery system for for those molecules to produce the taste so but you've gotta tune it right you can't just use any random fat to to get chewing us yes the cohesion and then fats they're also things about the fats that are important Bovine Maya Globe in which is the protein that's in beef etc and what we were optimizing the available supply chain for we actually found some other proteins that trauma performance standpoint in in in many ways are better on and sort of protects it against off reactions and so forth yeast makes its own him and so in terms of production all we did was we kind of let even better and and this is just the way this this is you know the advantage of a technology shift you can say that but the point is it never lost again because the horse never got any faster and you switch to technology platform that gives you the better every single day and we can make a product whatever product that's as good as the best version that ever came from an animal a week later we can make it toil modulate the melting temperature which is important for mouth feel and in some of the cooking behavior the potato protein equivalent amounts so sunflower Some of the sunflower oil contains fats and they participate in the flavor chemistry the coconut in terms of central amino acids and a whole bunch of things that that consumers care about right you can continually tweak that is there because of textural property that confer so we you know not just any random protein will will match the characteristics that we need so we searched and actually better performing so this is a process of constant this is the the decisive advantage that we the texture juicy or or whatever is desirable there and and that's a huge advantage and also the economics and the nutritional at the apparel would be in transportation the first mechanized transportation system they kind of like you know bubbling so just being kind of disperses we have over the incumbent technology it's that the cow stop getting better at what it's doing you know million years ago and we a lot of plant proteins to define the right ones found the potato protein we found some others but the potato protein was there was famously lost a race to a horse okay locomotive and in eighteen thirty five I think but uh-huh flavor and everything that consumers care about and we have people who are trained tasters this kind of like how a fragrance company have these people with these special noses that can smell things that ordinary people can't like how do you evaluate taste in identify some flavor component that we think makes our product better we can died in immediately right for or find a way to me market that's just something important to keep in mind because our goal is not to perfectly match the cow version it's to out perform it L. D. to optimize every important future of it and continue to optimize it and that's what we've done that you know if if we yeah that's a really good question and it's also really complicated question so for one thing you know everybody has their own notion of give us very quantitative objective measurements of sort of the chemical composition of the aroma and flavor and but there didn't exist supply chain for them we're actually in the process of trying to create a supply chain for for some better plant proteins that are potentially more scalable appearance and overall likeability and so forth because that's also very important yeah in other words we're not trying to please these highly under features in food putting this case meat but also they've they've been trained on particular vocabulary for communicating because yes that's that's almost equally important is that you can't just make your own random metaphors or something like that it's not it's not useful so rely heavily on testing where we get one or two hundred con just random consumers who are meeting consumers from the world and we asked them what the Ideal Burger tastes like the ideals take tastes like and so forth so there's not like an agreed upon he trained tasters we want to please many consumers as possible yeah so that's really important and then we also use analytical instruments that that can can give us in the train tasting is not only kind of like they've trained their ability to discriminate particular discovered that people deemed to be the most important aspect of what makes a burger a burger like when you pull these people and a profound so forth so we don't have cholesterol we have lower saturated fat we have actually slightly higher quality protein a Tude but it it kind of gives you a surrogate measure to tell you if you're going in a good direction yeah in addition to hime what have you in addition to all the geniuses in PhD's that you have on your rnd team do you bring in people that are expert in taste the flavor the Roma you know during cooking the the texture that specifics of a texture that chewing as the juicy news the appearance is really important I would say the it's more agile than bring hundred people together in a room to test you know hope you know bunch of prototypes that you're looking at it's no subsidy to rate are you know each version that we're trying out on flavor and texture and Oh and it gives you away then you can you can more objectively a measure of your progress in particular direction so we do use trained testers we and we're constantly optimizing all of them my own view about which one is the most it wouldn't win the competition with the cow if the flavor and color were good but the texture was mushy we wouldn't win if we didn't nail the flavor portent I mean it just changes all the time based on what we're focusing on but I think you know if if if the color were off and the flavor and texture we're good taste like how have you integrated on that kind of feedback yeah well the thing is that it's almost it's almost not that where we've annotate a lot of the compounds based on their how they smell and what they contribute and so forth and that enables us you took a very biochemistry approach to solving a very hard problem the hard problem being what makes me tasteless if it didn't have the right media after-taste you have to rely on all cylinders and it's interesting to think like it's really twelve to figure out which is the most important because they're all important and unless you do the Gel on all of them people will be dissatisfied with but yeah the the you know try to learn what's working what's not working what is it that people come back to you and say is the texture aroma is at the after Norton what the room smells like when you walk into the kitchen somebody's cooking it's not just what it tastes like in your mouth it is the entire three hundred sixty degrees experience of working with this product I one thing that so early on when we were just getting ready to commercialize it we were giving all times and you need to blow people's mind because meet The behavior of meat when it cooks is the problem of producing delicious Meaty Flavour get simpler you don't have to kind of like why why would that be it's because there's something magical that happens when you cook meat and it's a it's a big part of can be flavor and delivering it and one of the neat side products I mean side effects of that is when you understand how meat works is a system take the hundreds of molecules that make up the aroma profile of meat and figure out a way to cram them into a product you have to be able to cook it to your liking again something you can't do with Veggie Burgers so you know we had to have the only thing that married right based but we don't care about them from a consumer standpoint it it's all about delivering for the Meat Lover and and we can't kid ours else you know we have to deliver what they care about and and the experience of cooking is a big part of it and the versatility so there's very rare while it has to not only look but the texture and the juicy and the flavor has to match veggie burgers just simple amino acids vitamins simple sugars unsaturated fats and a catalyst bank you just need simple amino acids to simple bio-molecules they're not only simple but there are abundant and cheap okay unlike the fake flavors that go into alone our product is that it has to deliver for meat lovers we don't care about anyone else like I'm being you know many people I love are are entirely thank you get the magic you get all those flavors for free and you make it sound so easy well it's actually it's an interesting thing that I think the pleasure that chefs get with it that there's this transformation of flavor there's an explosion of Aroma it's it's and it's something that never get a veggie Burger plant based product or anything like that so it's kind of like it's mystical magical magical it's it's you know it's just basic chemistry but it's magical in the sense that you know this transformation happens you can is also the fact that you know Burger and if it's well done it has to match well done and you're not going to solve that by making kind of a pre concocted product that you know tasteless on an complicated properties but then it turns out that the underlying magic is relatively simple and it goes from being and a recurring thing that would happen is they would cook with it and they would say this just blows my mind okay cooked Burger but doesn't have the magic and the only way you get the magic is by understanding them kind of biochemistry the underlying variance I think and and the language that that people and chefs used when they do it you know it's a very commonly that literally like this blows my mind I've heard that multiple you know a big hairy problem like the problem of how do we how do we make food that delivers everything that me lovers care about and does a better job of it in the cow happens is when you get down to the fundamentals and you really know how the system works it gets much simpler yeah well that's that's something that that seems like a big hairy problem and conceivably could have turned out to be very problem but very often burger but in reality your company is the value of your company is in this database that you've created through the result of all the science I stumbled across in preparing to speak to you today which is that it's easy to think of impossible foods as just the impossible put into it that is really drilled down into how to make all these different flavors using plants as a source right that you can then you know well first of all the way I defined the value of a company is our ability to achieve our mission I mean we're serious body of producing enough of the products that that that meat lovers crave and making them better than the than the corresponding animal derived products is why I would say pretty much most of it is just the knowledge that we've been accumulating and you know we're doubling almost doubling AH performing for consumers okay and and that really does come down to building the know how so that you have the capability you often find when you when you try to understand in a fundamental way a system it goes from like it's got thousands of of things going on that you can win in the marketplace yeah and and succeed and yes a lot of what puts us in a position to be able to do this is figured out a lot of things about you know all kinds of meat flavors fish flavor you know how to control textures RND team side because we don't we're not kidding ourselves okay there's still there's still a lot of heart problems to solve ahead we extrapolate on to make all different kinds of different kinds of beef products and chicken products and ultimately fish dairy and the and the rest right and making product that you know American consumers will buy doesn't solve the problem for them so may want to serve it as tar tar while has to behave as tar tar has to have that raw meat start are they may like it to cook there there I twenty thirty five we want to have essentially eliminated the use of technology by beating them in the marketplace economics of those ingredients work out and that's something that we spend a lot of time on it's also really important for food security I mean you know part of our have a system that asymptotically as much less expensive and then and then with scale you you win there but you have to like the right choices you have to have ingredients that are inherently scalable you half and and where the you know the and I mean although plenty of them do but until we get to that point we're not done and and and and asymptotically so the ingredients that we've chosen now based on their underlying economics we should be able to be much cheaper one or at scale and I think that's that's incredibly important even in the developed world because consumers are prices love a lot of problems fast and in parallel and that have to do with every aspect of goal is to improve global food security by basically making you know right now meet is one of the most important sources of protein in iron in the global diet he knows and stuff like that but we're not at a point where every meat lover is basic never gonNA anything but an impossible Burg right we have to be able to to get better at flavor at at Aroma at juicy nece texture and also another very important thing is that we have to be I mean wild animal on earth by factor of ten and but fish would say is probably a close second his number one the overwhelmingly the land footprint of animal agriculture is cows yeah like I said they outweigh the incumbent products on cost yeah but that comes with scale it comes with scale but it doesn't come automatically scale it you have to have brand in terms of how you've launched this product and introduced it to the public and there are similarities the protein deficiency and iron deficiency are probably the two most common nutritional deficiencies in the world. There's almost a billion people are protein deficient almost we are going to be working over the next couple of years hard on on getting textures right because there's different textual properties of of making the product better the products better and be able to launch a bunch of new products were you know one of the things that over the next and slowly over time building scale around it to create products that are more affordable and I thought it was fascinating that you mentioned earlier suppress about the fish yeah fish for sure I mean fish I would say in terms of environmental impact you can debate but I would say and so that's all of those are important goals and and we see many ways to improve on all those axes you know going forward with our so I would say when we launched and still today the most important thing we get from every sale of our product is one whose livelihood and reputation depends on serving their consumers great food and great meat in particular nation that it is not possible to make a plant based product that delivers what they crave for meat the product To some of these high end chefs like David Chang being you know probably the most prominent of them to get it into the hands of these you know because you know the global fish populations are down by half the demand still out ways the ability of the population to reproduce themselves famously few years ago banned vegetarian items from his menu right okay he's a meet God and and I mean people who are iron deficient in the world mostly in the parts around the equator and and that's a huge problem this is something that if you're a meat lover you will actually like to eat and so the most effective way to send that message is have if we have a product that delivers on flavor you know outperformed flavor and nutrition and it's cheaper it's game over right people that we kind of revere culturally who are taste makers and are influencing culture and a pretty you know Mitch in substantial way to get them on and and that meant that the most important messed most important thing we need to accomplish with each sale is to maximally send the message that meet the big obstacle that we saw to our success is that every mediator has a very strong and this is true now very strong preconceived the chefs that we were Particularly working with are people who are particularly revered as meech fs okay Dave Chang Lord and then get everyone talking about what's happening which is very different from we have this product like let's get it into grocery stores as soon as possible and make it as affordable as possible minute production capacity our entire factory so to speak was probably not much bigger than your garage and everybody so walk me through the thinking behind how you've positioned to the branding of this and and how you're introducing this to the public okay meet and a meet application that's usually valuable as an endorsement to us and when we launched we had very we're gonNA really build up is is work on a whole bunch of other products that we want launched you know in the next few years does and so that's a really urgent problem to solve and we're working on it and you know we've made a huge amount of progress on fish flavor ernest of our brand and and you know and a change in psychology that plant based products don't suck as and some money that they get from the sale it's the brand building value on creating inexperience that exceeds all expectations exactly and to protect the impossible brand within the context of the restaurant like it's not they're not serving their you know so the people that we we wanted to work with and if he's willing deliberately on his own to put something on his menu and sell it as the restaurant has a stake in curing experience and making sure that the way it's presented to you is delicious okay and the way a sleepy is ideally to be in a situation where someone's done a good job preparing it the other thing is that you're more likely to be orig- and also because the other reason that we've built this big team is that we don't want to do it methodically over a long period of time we want at least within the restaurant and kind of food hyper aware community impossible as a very strong brand most of the world breath then when we we're able to increase our capacity we've still focused on food service because it they can call it whatever they want they have to use the word impossible in it right like whether you're a new Mommy Burger or Burger King it's the impossible so we had a very small supply and we wanted to get the maximum bang for the buck out of every say I think it was probably I don't really know that the history behind Tesla's upper right so just keep that foothold it's interesting though because what happened was from a very early stage we established the way for example Tesla began by having this aspirational very high end product that created a bunch of demand eating in group if you're in a restaurant at least most people are so more people can get exposed to it by sharing and the rest fish tissues and yeah that's that's GonNa be really important you've made some really interesting choices as so overworked person coming home and slapping something on their their you know in a pan isn't necessarily going to be able to do so we wanted people's first experience it means something to a consumer that this is an impossible burger and not just some random veggie patty so we don't we have no power over them Mo and most of the US still hasn't heard of it okay but what that means is that they get value from it that beater full stop or wine or for you know some no name coffee or whatever want is doing more to advocate for the product then a grocery store grocery store there's fifty thousand point so so which is a I would say much more on a per sale basis much more effective way of exposing consumer star product for one thing so anyway so we've we've done I mean we put a lot of effort into how we launched to really focus early on you know go to market approach but I think it was probably similar in the sense that they had limited production capacity and the most important thing they needed to achieve with every sale was not the way it was a I think a very sensible strategy and you know we haven't done the control you use your name no but the thing is it's greatly to their advantage you know if you go restaurant and basically they sell no not on generating revenue but generating positive brand awareness and so forth and that that has created the incentive for restaurants too but you're seeing more and more places you guys have raised seven hundred fifty million dollars something like that today and you're now in how many restaurants nine thousand this is something that you know you can only get if you places which kind of increases intrigue again and and and consequently demand yeah yeah but I think it worked no thinking I think it was a brilliant strategy and kind of in line with that you you guys have always made sure you don't you don't expect it to be as good and you probably won't pay as much for it if it's got a brand means something it's more desirable to consumers something that they they like seek it out in in grocery stores in a way that if it was just some whatever generic thing you of the brand that we've been building if they just put it on there anonymously yeah I mean we've all had the experience of going into random restaurant so we have red robin we have a lot of other really great burger chains Fat Burger in La area actually an amazingly delicious sausage product that I mean it's People Hamami Burger and you're doing like a sausage product with little caesars also yeah so we have put it on the menu as a branded product which kind of becomes a positive feedback loop and and it's going to help us when we launched in retail because sadly some kind of international roll out with them meanwhile you have you know beyond me aligning with Carl's junior and you're seeing this kind of wires and you order the Veggie Burger the Veggie Patty and some nondescript hockey puck kind of thing versus Oh they have the impossible burger so most of our sales basically are just a restaurant decides they want to put on their menu they buy it from a distributor we can't compel contractually obligating them your biggest customer they have to be right yes yeah and they're huge internationally right so imagine there's plans for you know I don't know if you can speak to that but crazy about it and we did our first kind of test launch with little caesars we're talking to quite a number of other accustom coalescing of the fast food industry you know kind of canvassing what's available in the plant based Meat Sector it's undeniable that this is a growing trend you know at least a lot of consumers who've had our products in restaurants and or or know about it and and recognized as a meaningful brand half dollars and by twenty thirty is projected to be three trillion dollar global market so there's plenty of money to sustain has has fed into you know intrigue in interest in what you guys are doing I remember when you could just think Mommy Burger was the only place yeah and and you know scaling fast basically you have to spend a head of your growth to get squirrel production and and what's so bad about eight thousand two how many were in now and and then we have other white castle white castle there's one number that's worth keeping in mind is that right now the global market for foods made using animals is about trillions you know just sustain this industry and and and that's important because you know we need to scale fast so so we don't have to compel the restaurant tourists to do it and we can't and we don't but they the same value to it they they lose all the the yeah but I think the thing that were just at the beginning of what I think will be just a continuing and probably accelerating surge la where you could get a except for crossroads maybe one or two other right and now slowly you know it's becoming a you know it's not ubiquitous yet it would be the best thing in the in in the Meat Department but but there'd be no way of people pretty cool yeah yeah well the gradual roll out yeah I think it definitely there's about about launch various form factors on pizza or as a breakfast patty or things like that and it and every you know supply chain etc so this is why it's it's it's this is why we raised a bunch of money because because you need that for for being able to see toward plant based products placing animal derived products and there's so many interesting things behind that first of all the the reason that it's kind of been just every product and other stuff is that they're just not there yet but they will they're getting better all the time there's a lot happening you know to make these products not just incrementally better but vastly better consumers perceptions are correspondingly changing from thinking Lee is incredibly good gotta try it I haven't tried that yet so here we are I presume that Burger King then becomes end though I would say it's either ten thousand or approaching ten thousand and by the time this is out we'll be national burger king they have about eight thousand restaurant lovers are basically realizing that this is actually really good is and it's getting better I think there's a positive feedback loop here and rich and he and his I kicked it around and eventually they said well this is a pretty good pretty good try but this is clearly delivering the things that are important to consumers deliciousness being overwhelmingly the number one but nutritional value and affordability you win if cattle and stuff like that and it's etcetera etcetera but but basically the point is those kinds of things were people who are absolutely uncompromising me it's only gonNA continue to grow I mean you know there's varying reports on the market cap is here but it's in the you know the I dunno a six hundred billion dollars or something do not consider the fact that this is made from the cadaver of an animal to be part of the value proposition it's actually a negative it's not enough of negative to outweigh totally marginalized thing until very recently is to be frank the products from meteors perspective just sucked and and this is even true and it's infused with like gender politics what it means to be a man to be masculine and that has a lot to do with me even if they're getting like they're projecting in the next decade so it's not going away I don't know I probably have that we'll be able to crazy numbers well there even know what it is because I never actually watched it but someone sent me the link of this Guy Glenn Beck he's a right wing kind of Guy his producer meat lovers love their meat because it's delicious good source of protein and iron convenient affordable inspired when you're not at a disadvantage that's right although I would say that there is a caveat to that which is needs to be redressed ultimately I think we none of us like the fact that an animal has to die for our food that they're still that thing get at the grocery store barbecuing at home and there's something about that emotionally or sociologically that I think still ninety percent horses to ninety percent automobiles in households because what they really cared about was not that you know we lost learned something really interesting in in talking to meat lovers they don't love the fact that their meat comes from animals this is a really important point all the positives of the century pleasure that get from it but but what it means is that if you focus on in plant based products live with every day and you you're taking care of and so forth and is part of the household and you would have said well you know yeah we have motor vehicles but I don't know how large this sector of the population is but there is a swath of people who who have an emotional connection to the meat that they eat consumers really care about ultimately is that it's as delicious as it can possibly be it has the nutritional value they care about and you can do it you WanNa do with it and so forth I think that that you deliver that you you outperforming the things that consumers care most about and okay it's a plant based product I'm GonNa try it because it's going to be terrible we actually you should watch this there's this there's this radio show no they're the power in their transportation had four legs and a tail and an ears it was that it made the vehicle move and what me you're so because it wasn't just that it came from the cow and some farm thousand miles away and you're somehow emotionally connected that animal in this case basically this animal the made from cow and that was impossible and then and then he was kind of carrying on because he's a rancher Texas rancher and you know raises the fact that it's made from the cadaver of an animal meat lovers almost almost universally and it doesn't matter where in the country or the world but we got this emotional attachment to the horse on that's going to be no took about a decade for the for for the automobile completely flip from you know kind of pranked him by an his sidekick by giving him hop body as one of the changes that sells our product in Texas very big in Texas very good chain actually a much more fragile and superficial than than people give it credit for and you know two hundred years ago you said the same thing about the horse right I mean even and and I think we'll we'll find that that you know association with an animal is the production system is not valued much even a great burgers and Gave them to hop dowdy burgers was made with the cow the other was made when the impossible patty and gave him a blind test us and asked him okay which is samples of our product a lot of chefs okay that you know were kind of Meat Gurus and by the hardest core Meat Lover and association with Masculinity I think that it's something that so you know kind of in some societies sort of culturally programmed and it can just as easily be you know with cultural shifts history well when you when you have a guy like Glenn back you know I mean that's that's huge were a certain been ignored by scientists or anything like that there's there's First of all protein protein the molecules made up of a string of me no acids and from a nutritional standpoint protein is just it just depends on those amino acids and particularly the essential amino acids and their relative proportions and so forth that's that made from plants but that is that is going to change a lot as consumers see more and more evidence that that you know the most are better than beef and that's you know that's simple demonstrable even soy is one of them then you should look at there are people who have never had meat in their entire lives including my three kids maybe your kids there delicious meat in the world can come from plants right what about the argument that comes up that protein from animals is superior yes and regular regular Burger King Loving customers and yeah and that's that's really what it comes down to is you've got it incredibly smart excellent athletes I think my son could beat you in a race in a running race and probably probably uphill jeff wine I mean if you if you look for like what are the what are the strongest markers of you know risk for shorter life idea is one is one of them but anyway the point is that here's the experiment that a non issue that this is made from plants the reason it's a big issue is at that people just think it cannot possibly deliver the things they value from meat so you know you need for optimal health right I have one or something like that the hormonal content you do not want more until the he accidentally gave it yeah and then there's the video of the people give the consumer the pleasure has faction that they need and you know all those sorts of things and it becomes it's what defines the nutritional value of a protein there are lots of plant based proteins that from the standpoint of the proportion of essential Amino Acids Burger King and you know I don't know people have seen that I'll link it up in the show notes but he's consumers who are convinced that they just eaten a normal wolper and more surprised to find out that so a lot of meteors think that there must be some kind of you habit okay maybe it's not the protein maybe it's something else that magic ingredient in meat that the incredibly smart nothing missing so it's just a complete myth and also there's lots of reviews and the the protein plants well first of all it's complete bullshit and there's and there's you know this is not something that has animals are tended to and slaughtered etc to more recent iterations of protectionism in the form of for you but I know that comes up and it's like yeah I get it but like you know there's no protein protein that I'm getting in the animal never eaten meat in their lives and their thriving they they're successful professionally there's accessible athletes their their you know I think that will vaporize very quickly when they're great plant based products when there's more and more evidence that that people you respect for all the all the qualities in an entirely plant based diet is completely healthy at all stages of life yeah there's no you don't have to sell me on that no I know Tori viewpoint there's some very interesting things that are happening right now they are not going to go quietly into the night so we have everything I think that I expect those efforts to continue I think that ultimately those laws will be found on constantly yeah no that's true too but anyway but that that's not the point the point is and I think this is a point that you try to make all the time that there's new compromise in terms in the nutrition science literature that that just systematically address all the evidence that not only a meatless diet but Korea it's propagate and part by the desire to rationalize it strong taste from it meet the veggie Patty veggie Burger as a veggie Burger you can't even use the word Veggie Burger do describe your product meets enteric dairy plant and dairy although I think that in a way that cow has left the barn so to speak but again this is one of these myths that I think is is propagated in part gets encouragement from the the thing from you know famously the AG gag laws that are preventing consumers from truly understanding how these products are manufactured and packaged and how these of your health and nutrition if you have no meeting diorite period it's demonstrably true it's it's there have been you know there are hundreds of millions of people that evaluate yourself are eating entirely plant based Diet and and you know we'll look back on it and just say what interested in our products and won't be interested in our products because of their name if we have to educate consumers that this product which you know I think I think it's a it's a major part of the current strategy that the industry is trying to do to throw roadblocks in the way of plant based on TV you've eaten it at barbecues you know what it is okay what's the big deal people don't love beef because and call it what you want it sitting there in the meat case you've seen you know chefs cooking care about to meet only better it'll be no problem I mean it's this it'll just be kind of a minor short-term inconvenient kind of surged we were preparing to scale up production we are already hiring for you know additional shifts at our production plant and and that these laws actually hang on it's not going to stop you know consumers are not and designing additional production line and stuff like that so we knew it was coming but it just came much faster than anticipated hey grace to because he's incredible climber I don't WanNa slow down the challenge because he's he he hasn't been warned I am very too but what are you doing well let's talk about the industry a little bit the big Eh big AG industry from a legislative and I want to meet people will not have any trouble figuring it out right I mean well it's preposterous that they would and and that was obviously you know a big problem because the customer National and they'll certainly be some some court battles over them but I think it's not it's it if they wanted look if if they said you have to call it something completely different okay I've just make up a name that it makes they love the name right I never thought about that yeah right well in order to for example this law that just passed in Mississippi that is from my understanding criminalising labeling a actualize this this this mission that you're on you have to reach tremendous scale and you guys are working our way towards that some issues with meeting the demand was so high like you were having trouble even fulfilling on that so scale is like I would imagine one of your huge focuses it's terrible and we I can just tell you it doesn't do any good we feel terrible about the fact that any of restaurant customers suffered any consequences we did everything we possibly could which wasn't enough to to try to get product to our customers while we were any cases taking a risk putting our our product on their menu nothing worse than if you're in the restaurant business which is you know calling Amethyst or whatever is is actually you know identical in all the ways distributors running out which means the downstream distributors have been running the restaurants and stuff like that but anyway when we saw this happening you've recently had kind of hockey hockey stick growth that was almost I would imagine on some level maybe unexpected because you ran in in this deficit situation and then we just scramble like wild to get out of it including You know when we when we saw it do I have that right and honestly I don't know the details law but you you have it close enough the labeling law war here is interesting right now sure so I mean the fundamental problem that I think we've learned a great lesson when the demand dicey business to begin with and consumer comes in for a product they know on your menu and you're out of it at thirty eight degrees Fahrenheit you know doing not the science that you sign up to do but basically stacking burgers twenty four hour production with people with Experience Faculty Factory Workers People with experience in the food industry and admit that it's confusing the consumers is ridiculous oh no of course it is that's why I think it's not going to hold up to any kind of a legal challenge but but but my point or doing something like that so that we could add additional shifts and and catch up to the demand and within twenty one hundred people signed up to volunteer to work or any plant producing that amount when there's no customer but then we have to suddenly be producing that amount so we need that agility and we need to invest ahead of the growth meaning we need to anticipate there's that are basically what we depend on for our whole mission and have been incredibly loyal and you know have and and so now we're catching up and we in fact we've replenish the distributors and I think that we're not gonNa let that happen again every year from now until twenty thirty five to achieve our mission it's GonNa be it's GonNa be this this is going to be the challenge all the wrong right to go across the bay which isn't terrible slap and it's an hour maybe and worked twelve hour shifts that either start or end at three am and for a time more than half of the people who are working there over the course of week we're basically from our team not not that coming and also the the the thing about the food distribution system is that is that the demand signals take awhile to filter back to you because there's these two distribution nodes between being prepared for a wide range of possible trajectories so that we can be agile if the demand surges I put out a call to everybody in our company that wasn't working in the factory basically saying we need volunteers and what we're asking you to do it's kind of like shocked is that even in the I would say virtually inconceivable but exceedingly unlikely chance that they that we need to make products that can compete on an even playing field successfully against the right well so the some of the responses don't require rnd innovation they just require us to do and what we've done is we've really changed the way we plan our business which is very heavily focused on in the business of you know you don't know for sure the slope some of the growth comes kind of not entirely predictably like you know we didn't know whether but the problem the fundamental problem is when you're growing you know like more than two fold a year like really really super fast question because as you grow and scale the ability to be agile he comes under threat right so the fact that you've got to be super protection going to be producing the demand is going to be you know several fold greater year and we have to make the investment extra capacity which or win Burger King would sign on his customer and when they did bang it's a big thing we you know other big customers sign-on well we can't be asked about the RND that you're doing and making sure that you have avenues in place where you can iterating innovate Quickly to respond melt cheeses and you know all these different products that we've spent some time doing basic research on and so forth but that's still quite a step from mission and from our standpoint you know we tell the team okay sometime in the next few years we're going to have fish and chicken pork and Bacon and and new and the customer so the there's a delay and then you start seeing that the distributors all the categories of products that that are made using animals or achieve our mission and we're GonNa do it I mean I'm completely can't just you know you could save from a business standpoint we could do the same thing with much lower risk by just kind of you know slow and steady you a lot more of the same thing that we already know how to do very suddenly like just scale the existing production but but the other thing you're alluding to I think is that and we if the demand just as expected or ready for that and if there's some reason that demand goes down ready for that yeah it's a tricky you know people we had hired for the production team and then we just geared up hiring like mad and we have to have a high standard for her because you know we're producing food and it's not the people who have been in this for awhile and the more you know about the more confident you are because you can see the space of possibilities space of possible solutions it's prior yeah I mean there's about how to run and build a company I mean I haven't I haven't growth and so forth we can't we have to we have to take the risks to grow on the steep curve because that's you know better what are the problems you need to solve and what's likely to be entailed in solving them before you've solved them completely you lose that revenue lose also the revenue from the other stuff that you would have sold with it you've needed a consumer and so for us good well and where I would imagine you had to go on a crash course learning about leadership and management and all of these things that were not part of your professional experience the joke you know so anyway bottom line is we managed to kind of re staff three shifts now but it's you know it's it's a big climb yeah it's gotta be exciting though I mean this trajectory that you've been on from academia to now you know making a product that that competes on even playing field for consumer not just nice try and that's why we're beefing up our team but products that have been on the market for a thousand years and win on their merits and that's a that's a high bar and we need to do that for you know sitting atop this two billion dollar company and having you know being responsible for hundreds of people has put you in a position what we we we picked a time target because of the urgency of this and you know of climate change and the meltdown biodiversity and so forth we legal issues and the the basic blocking and tackling of building a business. Okay but I know where to find people who do and get someone like Dennis and suddenly you know I can I don't have to I know this this whole part of the company but one thing I hand even there was so my my labs research has always been very kind of like basic discovery driven you've research it's it's a lot of the thought processes are similar but when you're when when when you're on a on under timeframe responsible for all the basic doing very well all the basic stuff of running a business and and managing the finances and Magic Colton Shackleton's allegedly all yeah basically we're asking you to volunteer I sure having to solve specific practical problems okay it's it's it's a different set of things like when when we were all the the business operations I know how to you know kind of leader rnd team large because mostly what we needed to do I was to study the problem and and understand what we needed to do and recognize right away there's a whole bunch of things that I don't know how to do well and I don't have time to learn how to do them so you get Dennis Wins Woodside so and I hired someone straight out of Stanford Business School Very Smart Guy still working at the companies out of our international growth and he was basically is in is is in the best possible hands when I first formed the company I I felt like well I don't know anything about the and and you know solve this packaging issue or whatever it's it's it's it's gotten rnd democ experience yeah right yeah and that's something that that but fortunately again there there there are people who are good at that that could help and they're great collaborators you can build a team in a culture that's incredibly strong and I would say the make or break thing you need to get right is to hire great people and and if you hire people then they actually taken a course and one thing I would say one thing I've learned or one thing I did that I I in retrospect I think was was an important thing to do was in the world right now and arguably the most important mission in history because the fate of the planet is in the balance and I've worked on carbon capture and so forth very capital intensive very hard to imagine how whatever scale we have the most scales because the basic premise of the company is right okay and there's huge potential there and I think if you hire great people like literally without a lot of micromanaging by me can you know can grow itself right and and you attract those great people opponent but it's it's it's it's much more practical and it's got time pressure and and that's something that I wasn't initially that you know want to hire other great people and if you're high grade people are not just smart but great like they're kind convinced the more I know about love dot much required no the thing is that because we are in an arms race and there is a ticking clock here there is no 2035 we not going to solve climate change or this biodiversity meltdown any other way and actually I'll just say one thing about climate change even though he didn't ask me about but there's actually have the agency to work on it yeah exactly yeah and the I mean this is this is your you know this is for the people in years worth of fossil fuel emissions okay meaning that if you could snap your fingers and make that industry go away about half of earth entire land area to capture capture carbon from the atmosphere automatically and in at the company their opportunity to be part of the most important I really feel like our mission is the most important mission I was never in a I was never in a position where the team do something on a timeline yeah because that's just not part of the okay discovery research that that is like when I used to do when it morphed into we need to still be doing all that but now we're trying to figure out how do we extend shelf life I operating around the the are like an academic lab basically which was the only thing I really knew how to do and but it was the right thing I think goes hand in hand in some respects I guess loosely with the Regenerative Agriculture Movement which I think there's a lot that's great about that order in sunlight okay and the we got water and sunlight fifty percent of land areas being used honey and and bring that expertise there in terms of leading a team I mean the thing is that the company is successful I think hire great people you have to give them a hugely important problem that's challenging and that's what that's what great people right and have them feel empowered like the there's very interesting aspect about the land footprint of animal agriculture which is the opportunity costs in terms of there's zero evidence so what happens is that that people are extrapolating from the wrong kinds of experiments to say the at the literature I've I've Dug into the data and so forth surrounding regenerative agriculture it's a long conversation but what I can say is there stories animals for food the amount of biomass on that land and it's actually you know been research on this represents about seventy has worked is is putting fertilizer putting fertilizer back into the soil the depleted soil and letting the having a huge mission and giving people interesting problems to work towards that's it you can hire mediocre people by offering a big bucket of money but lane with the farm is and can be as a means of regenerating the soil. Okay so I've spent a lot I'm looking at that we're seeing this sort of small groundswell of people who are adopting this carnivore diet and we build healthy ecosystems so it's it's it's incredibly compelling and it seems unassailable to me change mitigation people are talking about you know here's this very complicated technology for carbon capture okay there's what I find interesting is you know in the same way that that Big Food Big AG will not go quietly into the night and there's a couple more things I want to say about thing we can do is put more cows on the land okay if you take land that that has been depleted by farming and you converted to growing you bet and and since we are going to be doing this you know every year on average doubling we know carbon capture standpoint than continuing to grow those crops the real question is is it so I'm interested in how you're shaking your head I want to hear about this like how what you're saying kind of squares with people who are trying to re all the most highly evolved carbon capture system in the world right at our disposal and it's basically all it requires is land recovery of biomass on that land just without doing anything will immediately start lowering atmospheric c o two concentrations you don't need fancy techniques grass grown it they give the credit to the cows there's zero evidence for that okay so there's no idea being the the the core idea being and if you allow if you just if you just get the feed crops and the cows out of the equation you basically get back system instead of growing you know soybeans or whatever it was on the land planting grass and putting cows on it is it better from favor of that and there's lots of scientific literature on this in many many ecosystems that have looked at whether this works and there's just no evidence the cows being on the land is what's regenerating the soil right and and honestly you just have to look into what what the raw evidence is that cited Angie you just need to kick the cows off the land basically and not at the same time you're going to be solving this biodiversity meltdown because it's all about habitat destruction and degradation sector of the population to see somebody like that you know kind of get on board with and I wouldn't say that he became a big supporter but just the fact for it and the other thing is that the experiments are asking the wrong question which is the question they're asking is is is this in grass how do you do that while I involved splitting ton of fertilizer on the land and then you have cows grazing on the grass what better than a healthy ecosystem that would otherwise exist on that land if not support biodiversity and store biomass not just in the soil but above ground and and like I say there this is one of these things where there are these instead of having ten times The total biomass of every wild vertebrate on Earth fifteen times. Yeah so so this is this is something that I think was initially launched into mainstream awareness by Allan Savory then you know even if you presume virtually anything else but here here's the thing if if instead you allowed the original business and they're just being repeated over and over again and a lot of people just think okay well I keep hearing about this it actually can recover over well typically short period of time a lot of its native flora and wildlife and so forth but the amount of carbon that get stored there I believe he did a tedtalk on this he's a lot of you know people that are following him but on a very elementary elementary level when I look at it and protecting the you know taking care of land they farm and so forth so it's not a question of bad intentions it's just a question of there's no data to support this ah I just can't get around the idea that it's incredibly land intensive it's not scalable like we're not going to be able to feed okay instead of just a little layer of grass that's being continually graze and so forth that you have you know trees and tall grasses and available and where are where's the water coming from like I don't I don't know that accounts for everything and maybe I'm missing something here but it just doesn't seem to make ten billion people on the planet in this way there there may be a place for a very high end you know like the Joel Salatin and people want to you know spend a premium amount of money for me there are people who are doing this I am not questioning their good intentions you know a lot of people who are in the farming ranching business they care deeply about you know protecting the planet and must be a good thing but the scientific foundation for it is essentially no and and if you think that we'd be better off with Manse as a solution that's going to work at scale for a you know quickly escalating population of people where we're already struggling to meet the demand I think the you you hit on the main thing which is that yes it's incredibly land intensive forgetting about whether there's any evidence that this is better nations address what happens when you when you take take land that's being used to raise cattle on you you turned into national park or a state park and so forth but in terms of feeding the planet you need an unbelievable amount of land for these cattle degrees and we're already at fifty percent right there isn't that much moreland do as cows I mean you're smoking crack it's it's it's it's it's just a completely ridiculous idea now one thing I just want to say is will buy amass that exist on that land before it was cleared for farming and grazing and stuff like that to recover and there are lots of public anyway I don't even WanNa get you know this is one of these debates where it generates a lot of heat and it's it's and all this biomass that's Apple Carbonaro the atmosphere not by having cows you know trump soil and something made by Nestle or whomever plant based product my feeling is congratulations that's great the players move in to the sector we've got Nestle Tyson purdue all of these giant conglomerates are recognizing that I'm always kind of even though there's nothing nothing to that culture hanger I don't WanNa get too much

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