Dr. Jane Goodall The Legend, The Lessons, The Hope (#421)
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These days as you know with a million messages per minute not enough hours in the day. How'd you really catch people's attention this is? Lincoln can help with Lincoln ads. You can catch the right professionals. The right people at the right time and I'll tell you how I'm using them personally in a minute. Lincoln ads can drive traffic to landing. Pages for instance engagement and for many of you most importantly conversions whether that's registrations for an event downloads of white papers and e books. Were other important metrics me. Personally I'm going to be testing. Lincoln adds to drive sign ups to my free newsletter. Five bullet Friday which I've realized drives just about everything else with precise targeting through Lincoln entrepreneurs startups and SNB's at small medium. Sized businesses can better more cost effectively reached the people who matter to them specifically with more than sixty two million decision makers on Lincoln. You're able to connect with the business leaders or just the target audience who are most relevant to your company and deliver a clear call to action. That's always Ri- focus a lot on my energy obviously headline and call to action linked in ads allows you to cut through the clutter and ensure your messages are getting through to the people you most want to target so huge medium-sized and small. Businesses alike are all making the most out of Lincoln ads entrepreneur. Sola preneurs you name it so try for yourself. Lincoln is offering a free one hundred dollar Lincoln at credit to launch your first campaign simply visit Lincoln Dot com slash T. F. S. as in temporary show again that's Lincoln Dot com slash T. F. S. terms and conditions apply. Hello Boys and girls ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to a very special episode of the Tim. Ferriss show I have wanted to interview this incredible guest since day. One of this podcast somewhere between six and eight years ago and she is a living legend. Dr Jane Goodall she was born on April third. Nineteen thirty four and London England at the young age of twenty six. She followed her passion for animals in Africa. Tagami Tanzania where? She began her landmark study of chimpanzees in the wild immersing herself like no one had before in their habitat as a neighbor rather than a distant observer discovery in sixty that chimpanzees not only us but make tools rocked the scientific world and redefine the relationship between humans and animals in one thousand nine hundred seven. She established the Jane Goodall Institute. Jj to advance her work around the world and for generations to come JJ continues. The field research gumby and builds on Dr Goodell's innovative approach to conservation which recognizes the central role that people play in the wellbeing of animals and the environment in nineteen ninety. One she founded roots and shoots a program that empowers young people in nearly sixty countries and since its inception in. Nineteen ninety-one has greatly impacted youth in more than one hundred countries to act as the informed cultivation leaders that the world so urgently needs today. Dr Travels around the world normally three hundred plus days a year although certainly quarantine changes that speaking about the threats facing chimpanzees environmental crises and her reasons for hope and we do talk a lot about our current situation and I spoke to her from her childhood home. In England inner books and speeches she emphasizes the interconnectedness of all living things and the collective power of individual action. Dr Goodell is a U. N. Messenger of peace and dame commander of the British Empire if that is not one of the coolest titles you've ever heard. I don't know what is the next chapter of Dr Goodell's life's work unfolds. A brand new documentary and I highly highly recommend watching it. Jane Goodall the hope premiering on Earth Day April twenty. Second that's this April twenty second at nine eastern eight central on Nat Geo Nat Geo wild and net Geo Mundo. The two hour special takes viewers through the chapters of her amazing journey and the sixty years since her groundbreaking discoveries in Gumby researching wall chimpanzees including her Activism Chretien over nonprofit organization. The Jane Goodall Institute as I mentioned earlier and Roots and shoots the youth program which you can find out more about at roots and shoots dot org along with her current efforts to inspire the next generation. Dr Goodell's work through the Jane Goodall Institute is Advanced. The generous support of their donor family. People like you and me in other words to show your support visit. Jane Goodall Dot Org forward slash. Tim Can find her on social on all social platforms at Jane Goodall Inst- as an institute at Jane Goodall inside I N S T and you can find out more about her youth program and visit them on social on all social platforms at roots and shoots and without further ado. Please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation that I so thoroughly enjoyed myself with Dr Jane Goodall Dr Goodall. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much. I'm thrilled to finally connect. I don't use the word hero. Much certainly been a hero and an idol to me for many decades in a previous lifetime. I want to be a marine biologist and I am also very lucky in a sense that I have you in one place because your team has told me you travel and have traveled three hundred plus days a year for the last several decades but my understanding now is that you are in Bournemouth and I thought we would start perhaps close to the beginning and this certainly takes place in England just as context from your childhood. I understand that you grew up during wartime and I would love to hear you describe what that experience was like. Well now. I'm really glad I grew up at time because although it was shocking I mean we will in Bournemouth but some bombs were dropped here. The German fighters used to dump their bombs near the coast if they hadn't managed to hit the target and whistled of in the Middle. So we had the bombs falling. We had sirens air-raid warnings. We had to go into an air raid shelter which is a little tiny cage really supposed to be keeping people safe so families children were issued them and people were killed and damaged and we never knew the bums would fall in London. My uncle was a surgeon so he come back every other weekend with shocking tales of of what had been happening but the reason I say I was glad I grew up then is because I land take nothing for granted. One Square of chocolate was huge. Treat food was rationed closed garage and We had very little money was no television. Only television. Were the news reels. That was just about the war and so books became very very important and I still got my childhood books here with me in the room as I speak to you and so we luckily have. This garden is my grandmother's House and I spent lots and lots of time with my dog. So the really shocking part was hearing about the Holocaust and seeing photographs of the skeletons of the Jews in the camps were opened up. I mean skeletons of living people and that really changed everything. Life started thinking age ten about good and evil so that was my growing up in the wool. As you were growing up I I read a number of stories that seem to In a sense foreshadow much of what would come later but I read stories of your mother finding you observing earthworms in your bed. I read of stories of you hiding and waiting for more than four hours to see a hen laying an egg and the police almost being called. Because you are missing is is that comfort with patients and on some level isolation. Something that you developed yourself. Is that something? You've observed and other family members Would love to hear you comment on that. If you could it was just me. I mean on the family in a loved animals but they didn't observe them a watch them. I didn't have any Any example tour. I was just born that way and having such a supportive mother. I mean UH swims in my bed imaginable. The Earth and the muck and lots of mothers will be horrified and and throw them out of the window which she just required. Lee said You die here and we took them back in the garden amend the Hen House Story. It's one I tell a lot because we went to stay on a farm in the country and I was given. The job of collecting Henson was appropriate from there. Were no animals. Cooped up in tiny prison-like would Animal concentration accounts. They will free roaming in the field and the hens and the NFL but they lay the eggs in these little hen house. Apparently I began asking. Everybody wins the egg. Come out nobody. Distinctly remember seeing hen go into a hen house and I crawled off to her and skulks of fear. She flew out. I can still feel her wings itching. My face and I must have sought in that little four and a half year. Old Brain will know Hen Malayan kids dangerous place so way to that was the time. I waited and waited in this empty house but was rewarded the head and came in and I didn't know the family being read. I was rushing towards the house and that was mom. You can imagine how worried she was having nearly called the police but instead of how dare. You often do bed that again. We should have killed the magic. She sat down to hear this amazing story. And the reason I love it is less the making a little scientist curiosity asking questions. Not Getting the right on to find out feel self making a mistake not giving up and learning patients. A different kind of mother might have crushed that early scientific curiosity and I might not have done or not done. It seemed to really cultivate your not just ability but perseverance with observation and in watching footage of you and we'll we'll certainly get to Africa and other experiences in your biography that you have to have many sensitivities and I could be off base with that but I want to ask you a bit more about your mother because in reading a New York Times profile from Suppose about a year ago there was a one paragraph that caught my eye and it was related to your childhood during wartime and related to your father's brother. Rex who had joined the Air Force and was killed and the sentence that caught. My eye was one day. We were in Bournemouth in the evening and suddenly she. Your mother screamed wrecks and started sobbing hysterically and it was the very moment he was shot down over Egypt. So just for clarity. Is that to say that. She somehow intuited that he had been shot down before receiving news. I'll absolutely I mean nope we didn't know for quite some time under a different. Asians like we were walking on the beach. Normally we have to go up to our little guest house. The quickest way but on this occasion mom decided to take away which she never did. She had a week hot but she took us the long run. I still remember looking up with the Blue Blue Sky. Emceeing an aeroplane quite high and seeing to black things that looked like cigars coming out on each side. Among through me and my assistant to the ground I can still hear the terrible explosion. Am One of those bombs felt right on the path where we would surely have seen if we go short way the normal way. Have you experienced any of that for lack of a better word intuition in your own life in the field or elsewhere or is that something that was unique to your mother? Pretty unique to her. But you know I experience very vividly the presence of my second husband after he guide and it ties in with what other people have seen them felt so in other words. We're going into a different realm here but I don't know what people believe and I'm not quite sure what it all means myself but it's a p people have been asking me what's next big adventure and always say dying because you know when we die the nothing which is fine or something and if there's something what's an adventure to find out you've had you've had more adventures than most and I suppose. This is a good time for those who certainly recognize your name. I think almost everyone will recognize your name. And they'll know that you're considered to be one of the world's foremost experts on chimpanzees but beyond that. I think many people don't know about the early chapters and I'd like to Segue to that because it opens up a number of doors that we can explore. Let's flashback could to March nine thousand nine hundred eighty seven and I believe your passport is missing. Can you explain what has happened? Well we've done a last minute shopping and of course in those days when planes going back and forth that's how long I've lived and it was by boat and we actually I suppose train hustle. Something I can't remember the details and suddenly I found. I didn't have my passport and I remembered we'd been shopping in Peter Jones and so mum rang up shops at they funded. We found somebody to go and collect it who rushed to the dock otherwise I couldn't sailed and all my money would be wasted. So what's the drama with a way to start and that money just just for those? Who aren't familiar W that was painstakingly. Gathered over rather long period of time with various jobs was not. It's not like you had this in a bank account just waiting to be used for whatever purpose for a long period of time school. It was no money for university. I have to have a job. You know we had very little money so I I pulled it a secretarial course which was boring but I got my diploma. I got a job then. Came the letter from a school friend. Inviting me to Kenya so you could save money in London so I went home and got a job a waitress in a hotel around the corner very hard work in those days families coming to spend a week by the seaside. And you've got to look after them for whole week. If you wanted any so the tips the small but hunt made sure they own you. I was saving up for Africa. So it's how I got the money I would love just to spend a moment and we don't have to spend a lot of time on this but discussing Louis Leakey and I've read various accounts of how you connected with him. But I'd like to to hear it directly from you and In perhaps you could describe what it was that he saw in you but that initial contact is and how that came to be is is of great interest to me two could speak to that. I would appreciate it like be staying with my friend for about a couple of months and somebody said to me at a Party. Appeal interested in animals. He released me yours leaky He was curator at that time. A Natural History Museum but of course. He's best known as a a very eminent paleontologist. He'd spent his life with his second wife. Mary Leakey searching for the fossils are stone-age ancestors across Africa and so I was very shy back then but I rang. The museum said I'd love to make an appointment to meet Dr Leaky Voice and I'm leaky what you want. But anyway I was so passionate about animals anyway. Went to see him and he took me all around. He asked me many questions about the stuffed animals. That were there and I think he was impressed. That because I read everything I could about Africa. I on so many of these questions while I mentioned earlier that boring secretarial course. I did two days before I met leaky. His secretary had suddenly quit. He needed a secretary and there. I was never know in this life. So I'm suddenly surrounded by people who can answer all my questions about the mammals and birds reptiles amphibians the insects the plans. It was heaven. Oh you leykis wanted. He see in. May young a feeling that women may better observe us. They were more patient. He also wanted somebody to go and study chimpanzees because of his interest in human evolution. So the fossils of early man that he was uncovering can tell a lot from up fossil about whether the creature walked upright muscle attachments. The wear of the tooth shows roughly. The kind of Diet behavior doesn't plus lies so he reckon there was a apelike human like common ancestor about six million years ago? Just now generally accepted and that he thought Jane Behavior in chimps and humans today is similar or same maybe it came directly from the common ancestor and has been with us through a long separate eagerly journeys in which case he could have a better way of imagining how his early humans used to behave so he wanted a mind uncluttered by the reductionist thinking of the animal behavior. People at the time. It was a very new science. They were anxious to make it a hard science which it shouldn't be and so the fact I hadn't been to college was plus the fact that I was a woman was plus. I was lucky for he. He seems to have picked the winning lottery ticket or at least a a very formidable combination of traits and if we take that mention of patients or his belief that in part women make better observers because of more patients if we flash forward then to you landing in Ghamdi Stream National Park Tanzania from getting the pronunciation correct. I was watching The first net gio maybe not the first but the one of the more recent NAT. Go documentaries about you titled Jane and in that and also in your writing. I believe it took something like five months of constant effort and having chimpanzees flee from your presence to finally be what we might call accepted and I have two questions related to that. The first is what do you think made the difference? Why did they go from fleeing to accepting and second is when you I really had the opportunity to look deeply into a chimpanzees is what did you? What did you see and just as importantly? What did you feel alright? Well the acceptance in the in the movie it sort of look to survey something accepted made. It wasn't like that it was very gradual. It was partly thanks to this one male who began to lose his much ahead of the others. Michael Him David Greybeard subtly white band and because he began to let me get closer and closer I think if I came to group in the forest and he was with that group because they separate into you know separate small groups and sometimes but if he was there than the others were ready to run but he was sitting calmly and I suppose that made them feel well. She can't be so dangerous after all so gradually. I could get closer. And the first time I came close to a group. That didn't run away. I think was one of the proudest moments of my life. You know it made it just in time before the six months money ran out and So go I'd seen David Greybeard use and make tools to fish for termites. Thought to be something only humans capable of. That's what brought the geographic lie to the beginning. Six months off to the study began may agree to gone funding. It was David Greybeard. The first chimpanzee that you were able to get close enough to to sort of connect eye-to-eye with definitely what did you see and feel when you had that opportunity. Well I saw that I was looking is a thinking feeling being and it was not so surprising. You might think because I'd always felt that animals were thinking feeling beings but with the chimpanzee so like US behaviorally and biologically. It's it's almost. It's not like looking at another human is different and I can't explain how it's different but it was a very magical moment. Because he looked back. That was the thing he didn't run. He just sat there and looked back at me. I would love to ask questions about what we might learn. And what perhaps you've learned about human nature or even questions have been raised in your interactions and observations of chimpanzees and mentioned it briefly but it it's hard to overstate just how incredible and shocking and world-shattering for many people was that you observed chimpanzees not just using tools but constructing tools for in this case consuming. Termites mean it. May it made news around the world? You'd many other observations. I believe also that the belief that chimpanzees were purely vegetarians. Also you observed not to be the case with their their consumption of other primates exactly and you noted and I know this was a real in some is a FAUX PAS at the time real personalities. And you might have been accused of anthropomorphic at all of these things but you observe different personalities in different chimpanzees and I thought perhaps we could just start with a story and that is the story of old man and Mark Cassano. If I'm getting the pronunciation right and then I have questions about a few other chimpanzees you personally had quite a bit of interaction with crews on our own land on an island in Lion Country Safari in Florida and old man had been in medical research it being captured from the wild. His mother was shocked and he was called old man. Because an infant shampoos distressed and frightened they have wrinkled faces and they huddle only they do not carry old and he was lucky loose about twelve and for some reason he was known now more used to the lab and he was put on an island with three females two of them for medical research one from searches and Maku Sauna was employed to look after them and he was told. Don't go anywhere near them that bishops. They hate people much stronger than you. They'll kill you so he troops food from his little paddle boat onto the island and began watching them. A baby was born so old man was the father and he felt visas. Such amazing beams. I must have some kind of relationship with them. If I'm to look after them supergun going closer close on one day. He held out a banana in his hand. When when Oldman to beat he said I know how you felt when David Banana from you. When they he went onto the island one day he groomed old man one day they they played an old man. I laughed and they became basically. That was a friendship and then one day mark slipped into being raining fell flat on his face unfortunately frightened this infant. Who is the love of old man's life that will bind us to protect and carry him and share Food Welsh? The mother hearing her scream raced an attacked mark biting his neck. The other two females to support her ran in one big his wrist one becky's leg and Marc will hound awesome. I going to get away from them so much stronger than us. He looked up. He saw old man thundering across the island with a furious colonists base on he thought his time and come to die on come to protect is precious infant but what old man did was to pull those. Three screaming rose females off mock and keep them away while not dragged himself to safety. I met mark when he came out of hospital. He said no questions. Oldman saved my life and so in. I always think if a chimpanzee who's being abused by people can reach out to help a human friend in time of need then surely agree with a greater capacity. Compassion can do the same to the chimpanzees in that time. The thank you for telling that story. And it's I think a useful and beautiful segue into a discussion of some of the other things that you observed and in this case we see compassion on the part of old man and then Perhaps on the other hand you've also observed quite a lot of aggression and violence Within chimpanzee communities of both the I think it was nineteen seventy four to seventy eight. Gumby Chimpanzee War I saw footage of. I think it was the southern troop being violated or at least the The dead bodies of those chimps. I believe in. Please correct me if I'm wrong. That in some cases dominant females will deliberately kill the young of other females to maintain dominance observing that in chimpanzees but also observing the compassion as you have. What has that led you to Believe or infer about human nature. Well it's interesting when I began talking about aggression. Many scientists told me I should play that down because it might indicate that aggression in humans was inherited from a Pasta Ancestors. Which for me was very clearly the case and I thought. I'm not going to be bullied. I never have been by scientific opinion so I continued to talk about it. And it was the time you wouldn't remember. It was nineteen seventy seven. I think and it was a time. When whether aggression is innate inborn or acquired land was was a huge controversy. And that's when I I really talked about it to a scientific community and I I don't know I mean. It seems obvious to me that we've inherited from our common ancestor traits of aggression and also traits of compassion and empathy. To what extent if we take an example a from your personal experience and I I know very little about Frodo but Frodo seems to have been amongst the chimpanzees. You had exposure to one of the more aggressive. But I'd love to hear you speak to this. And how would you explain the variance among chimpanzees? Was it also appear to be a nate? Did did it seem to stems from some type of trauma. How did you think about that? And perhaps Frodo specifically well. They're all different. Some are much more aggressive than others disliked. We off a Rodeo. Once spoiled he was a spoilt Brat is a mother was the highest ranking female. At the time he had to he had one older brother who always came to his defense did fee and so he always got his own way and he was he was a real bully. So it's to a two young ones plane same age as him haves and he came to join them they would stop playing immediately because they knew if he entered the game he suddenly become rough and cause them to be hurt so it wasn't just humans. Feel the systems and specially mean that he targeted with his displays hitting over dragging. I got Western Wall. I was stamped upon. But he was not try really to her. But he was trying to assert his dominance and I guess they don't realize quite how strong they are. I'M GONNA be wanted to kill me. I wouldn't be speaking to you now. That special is the assertion of dominance does is how much of this conscious and I don't know how one would even know but is is that is that a conscious or potentially conscious political maneuver to to get better access to resources and so on or is it really just a conditioned behavior based on as you said being being spoiled and that just being some type of primitive drive that they have and perhaps even we have because Don's brother before him became the top ranking male android had a very different character was reflective He became dominant not to aggression but still being smart some of the males get to the top by share aggression by bullying by swaggering about waving their arms. They remind me so much of some. Human politicians is not true but There are other males who get to the top by skillfully forming alliances and they only tackle high ranking male when the allies said to support them and then there are some who just persist they persist in charging towards groups of superior males who agree me each other startling them so they run away an Indian. This was Goblin Indian. I think the other males so it will he just go on doing us all right miss. Just let him get to the top. We don't care anymore. That's how it seemed. And he penned millions and he was small and he wasn't very blessed to you are I think for many people a messenger of hope and I personally swing quite often more often than I would like. Between having faith in humankind human nature and feeling as though we are perhaps hard coded or through DNA destined to at times revert to our lesser selves lowest selves most aggressive selfish selves. How have you formed your own thinking or I should say what is what is your thinking about human nature and where it has let us and how that relates to perhaps poor decisions and good decisions that we've made that have landed us where we are. Certainly you're in your childhood home Spending more time in England now than you have in decades. I'm also in in lockdown. But how after your many decades of observation of not just chimpanzees but humans. Where do where do you currently stand on thinking about human nature? Well I find sadly there are some people who really cost a very bad light on human beings. We looked down from another planet. And that's I mean you know as I told you earlier I was so shocked about Holocaust on. That's what made me think about human evil. And the way we differ from the chimps is that chimps can be aggressive in chimps can kill. But it's on something that's roused. It's a a strong emotion and they just display an attack but human beings can sit and think and plan deliberate torture mental and physical in cold blood and that I think is where we differ an changes from aggression to evil. And it's the dichotomy I mean. Some people are saintly and patient and good and other people The opposite and unfortunately. Today we have many presidents and prime ministers who seem to be more concerned for their own advance on their own careers. Their own power Their own acquisition of wealth gun for the good of the people who elected them. So we're both and it's going to be a race. Isn't it as to which side will win if they if the greedy materialism of the capitalist materialistic world wyndhams then we're doomed and this is why I spend so much of my time trying to grow program for young people because I would say almost none of the young people who've been through this program which began in ninety-one and is now in six countries and his kindergarten through university in Idaho? I don't know more than two. Who strayed from the part of having good values respect for nature respect for each other? So I want to grow more and more of these young people because they're the future leaping stealing their future for decades and this is the roots and shoots youth program that you're referring to yes roots and shoots dot org also put that in the show notes for everyone of course. Let's let's talk a little bit more about that and As it relates to youth program the the cultivation of minds that are inclined to bend towards the light instead of the darkness or towards good instead of evil. I know there's a very strong words but let's use them for now. If we're looking at the current situation as it relates to SARS Cov two and Cova nineteen and so on Could you speak to? What got us into this fix. And I mean I'm thinking. Of course the wildlife trade it's effects on human health and so on it doesn't need to be specific to that but how we got here how we contributed to it and then also if if you're teaching us how you would how you would educate them so that they don't make the same mistakes. They long last week questions I did. It's a bit of a sloppy question. Sorry about that with the Hocutt nineteen cassettes on everybody's minds right now and the shocking thing is. It's been predicted by science. Decades just like climate change has been predicted and I only wish somehow that been locked down about climate. Change the way that this being locked down over this this this virus because you know we we. We have known for all this time that because we are destroying the environment of some of these animals. There's spending having to spend more time in contact with each other because they've got less habitat and also more time in contact with humans and sometimes that's that involves crop rating but there's also people penetrating deeper and hunting. And then of course selling the meat in the African markets Bushmeat Aman selling me to cross Asia in these terrible what they're known as wet markets and also selling animals for medication for pets. All of this bringing us in close contact so the theory seems to be what the virus in a wild animal and because of this closer contact between animals it jumps into another animal. And that's when in these very bad conditions including factory forms by the way the virus commend jump into a human if there is a similar kind of virus with which this new one combined and that leads to a new A new form which as as is the case with with the Kobe. Nineteen can be rather devastating. Just think if we if we treated climate change like this all those years ago when we were warned about it we might not be in the State Lauren. Now so basically I'm saying is. Our leaders have not listened to science. The big corporations have not listened to science and hundreds of people. Now we're in this materialistic money. Grabbing age you know just want to carry on with business as usual. They don't want to think about not eating. Well the meat they won't or not Favoring the destruction of a piece of habitat to build yet another shopping mall so you know. That's that's what the viruses teaching us. And will we learn from it? We didn't seem to land from the markets were live animals are banned for awhile but then it started up again. China is not talking about making it permanent with a still allowing animals. Wild animals to be sold medicine snaps. A tremendous loophole luckily people in China to close that loophole. To if you have a classroom and as you do now with social media I mean you you are arguably reaching more people now virtually than you might in travel speaking to live audiences. But let's say you had a classroom of ten thousand children or adolescents youth. Who were hanging on your every word. What are the principles truths that you would infuse in your lessons to them? That could possibly help. Avoid some of these problems that we've we've created a or types of thinking. What would the would the curriculum? Look like must've Let me just say that roots and shoots which began in Nineteen Ninety One. Twelve high school students dar-es-salaam incomes in Yep We decided as a meeting the same of our aid. You know coaching in the pox. Illegal dynamite fishing and street children than cruel treatment of animals in the market. I mean they were concerned about what kinds of different things so we decided that the main message this new program that we wanted to start together would be that every single individual matters is role to play and makes a difference every single day with a choice to kind of difference to make right from the beginning because I learned about the Indian connection of things in the rainforest. How every species matters has evolved play? We decided that every group formed would choose between them three projects one to help people wanted to help animals one to help the environment and they would share their projects with each other and so we began listening to them. What did they feel matter? How could we help them? And when he when young people understand the problems and we empower them to take action and listen to their voices. It's quite extraordinary. I mean the my main reason for hope is traveling around the world as I have been. I've met so. Many young people have been positive. Roots and shoots or similar groups. Shining is wanting to tell Dr Jane what they've been doing to make a better world and because they can choose they they they're passionate and they sit down together and they discuss it very democratic. They discuss what what they can do between them on. Bay Sometimes ASK FOR HELP. Maybe a parent may be a teacher And then they will up this leaves and take action whether it's restoring a wetland whether it's installing rubbish bins or organic gardens in the schools whether it's saving up money to help quake victims and because we put them in touch with each other face to face when possible but but truly which is wonderful they are inspiring each other. Yes we do have some curricula because some countries wanted UK wanted a curriculum. Were one hundred. One thousand seven hundred schools now and some of the African countries want curricula. Sometimes it's just you know so yes I do have messages for them and I do talk to them about the role that they can play about the importance of thinking about the consequences of the little choices. You make each day. How people may look different. Sound different the different languages. Different color of skin. But if they've fall and bleed the blogs saying if they wait the tears of the same and kids get it so it's not so much teaching. It's it's sort of the values of developed. They've grown up with the program and we now have a number of adults in quite high places and they have kept their values as they as they read the program and move on into adult life. So we've got teachers and people in government and people in law an alleged just remembering the importance of respect is a key word. Respect the environment respect for animals and of course I tell them about animals in how each one has a personality. A mind emotion. How pigs and rats and octopus are amazingly intelligent and how they can feel pain and fear and despair so it depends on the children on their age kindergarten university. Between between depends what I tell them. But I do as many Gatherings of young people as I possibly can and as you say now I can do it. Virtually and I can talk to them about things that I've learned. I recall a few years ago speaking with a friend of mine who I consider to be a good father a good parent and I asked him what advice he would have for someone like me. Considering having children I have none of my own yet and his advice he had a number of pieces of advice but his first was teach your children to be optimists and it seemed like a precursor or a prerequisite for so many other things. And I'm I'm looking at a time. Article Time magazine Article. That is that you wrote in two thousand two and I just WanNa read one paragraph and then ask you to elaborate or speak to it. So here's here's the paragraph. The greatest danger to our future is apathy. We cannot expect those living in poverty and ignorance to worry about saving the world for those of us able to read this magazine and my side note or listen to this podcast. It Is Different. We can do something to preserve our planet. You may be overcome. However by feelings of helplessness. You're just one person in a world of six billion. How can your actions make a difference? Best you say to leave it to decision makers and so you do nothing. Can we overcome apathy? Yes but only if we have hope and speak to that and also just to how you cultivate. Hope whether that's in yourself or the people you speak to well. I have my reasons. Hope which I'm always sharing with people but The singer people feeling helpless. Could they don't know what to do this message? If our youth programs that every individual makes a difference and it's just you picking up trash pits just you saving more than it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference but because people are becoming more aware all around the World Ben does not you but thousands millions of people picking up trash saving more and so the message again being think about the consequences of the small choices you make everyday. What do you eat? We did it come from the town. The environment was it cruel to animals like the intensive bombing Is it cheap? Because of child slave labor somewhere make ethical choices and because millions of people making ethical choices way moving in the right direction and all of our young people you know they're influencing their parents and grandparents and I know that because the parents tell me so you know my reconsider hope number one is the youth I've said because they just so inspiring and secondly I say it's very bizarre but what makes us more different from chimps and other animals is explosive development about intellect. I mean look at what's happening now with the social media is one example. You and I talking went far apart way reaching millions of people. I mean. It's quite amazing. Isn't it when you think about it? We sent rockets demise and all that sort of thing so how did this most intellectual creatures destroying its only home so that seems to be this disconnect between the clever Brian and the human says love and compassion and thinking about? How does this help me now? Instead of how does it affect Future Generations? So now we're beginning to use our brains scientists tall to come up with more and more sophisticated. Technology will help us. Lead Beth Living more commonly with the natural world if governments would sponsor clean green energy rather than less succumbing to that ties with the oil and gas industry. We could be more or less off the granted. Many countries today China on India moving in that direction rapidly as well But each one of us can use our brains to think about the the environmental footprint. We thank each day amendment the resilience of Nature I tell people stories about areas that were totally destroyed. Rivers Lakes Lake. Mary was so polluted that it caught fire was polluted analogous fish swimming in it. Because people can animals on the brink of extinction of being given another jobs just have to say the habitats the up to change the mindset of those companies that want to destroy a forest to make money out of the wood or destroy forest to get minerals out of the ground to make more money but then we got to solve property because as you quoted Enya. If you'll really poor what what can. What can you do except cut the last three down of desperate to grow food to feed your family? Cheap is junk food because you doing to solve property unsustainable lifestyle of breast bus. But you know my last reasonable hoke is this indomitable human spirit the people who tackle what seems impossible and win involved and they may die as a result of that conviction but in the end they succeed I would live to speak about the power. Storytelling we've We've been discussing for at least a few minutes. Or at least made mention of intellect and technology to powerful and very interrelated facets of our human experience in watching the trailer for perhaps the next chapter of your life's work that will be shown and the story told in Jane Goodall the hope which is going to premiere on Earth Day April Twenty second on Nat Geo and include. That she a wild. And that's your moondog. I'll include all those details in the show notes and also will have already mentioned them in the introduction but there was a there was a quote in that trailer about changing minds. And the quote. Is this if you want somebody to change their mind? It's no good arguing. You've got to reach the heart and I wanted to. This might seem like a strange segue. I'd love to ask the question of Mr McGregor. And and how he came to his end. Could you speak to WHO MR McGregor was and ultimately how he died out with an old man like fusco go to Kombi slightly bored on the top of his head? Bit cantankerous and he was just really very very special. He had a special relationship with a young female. I don't know if she was related to him but he was old and she was young. Houston protect Amend probably the DOC stays even was some. The Wall was when the chimps were affected with a polio epidemic. And it was a terrible time. I one would come back dragging a paralyzed. Limb one Mellon Tool Cup right because one arm Toki paralyzed but Mr McGregor was paralyzed in both legs and he dragged himself up to the feeding station and I think the most awful part was on the other. Chimpanzees shunned him a fear of strangeness. Which of course is very adaptive if an infectious disease but I can never forget. It was a group of the other males grooming in a tree with enormous effort. Gregor dragged himself from branch to branch with just the strength of his arms and they took one look and climbed down and the look on his face. Will this effort. Which if I'd done wrong. Why are they going away very slowly he he? He went down to the ground again and in the end we had shoot him because we didn't have any other way of euthanizing him. We could have kept him alive feeding him but on us. But if you'd seen the sadness on his face there was no way that was alive for chimpanzee it could have been cruel so it made a deep deep impression on me. Mr McGregor and when I saw it in the movie it brought brought it'll back was a terrible time. What did you take from that experience? Whether MR McGregor in that entire experience or the polio itself affecting the chimpanzees around you what did you. What did you take from that experience or learned from that experience well and they definitely from human beings. I'm fortunately none of us. None of us a tool. But there was an epidemic in the nearby town and just some unreason. The doctor said. It wasn't polio. What he thought it was so there was no medication that was no vaccination and fuss lame chimps seen way down south near that place an I presume that spread from them up to our community because nobody in our staff or any anybody who got polio wanted. I take away from it. The fact that you know I think human beings have tended to treat people who behave strangely with fear and shown them that's led to a lot of suffering like people with cerebral Palsy To shut them away not realizing that inside. Those strange movements sometimes sometimes strange songs insides of accurately normal brain. But the brain can't express itself so Mr Mcgregor had what we think was his younger brother. An humphry was the only one who never left. You wouldn't go near Raga. But he's fade nearby in the trees. Even when all the rest of the group went far away feeding on some fruit humphry stayed an obsolete. We Youth Anais. We did it when no jumps around including free for at least the next month. I'm became an Saturn trees near where Mr McGregor had been so it it just taught me a lot about how chimpanzees and humans react to something strange if we then look at the work. You're doing now the work you've been doing over the last several decades but particularly with the the youth program and also in my mind trying to affect change with decision makers the the people in positions of power who are responding to their own incentives whether that be could be getting reelected could be power of some other type it could be. Acquisition of of capital could be any number of things. Are there any stories that you have found particularly effective for reaching the heart to grab the attention of of people as you've traveled in spoken with so many over so many so many decades is? Is there anything that sticks out to you? Well most people absolutely right telling stories. I always try and spend a little bit of time finding out the person I'm going to meet piss somebody in in in government or something do have children. They have dogs. I mean just so you can start something often. Not just I'm here for this bla-bla-bla lobbying on the hill for example and then try to tell stories. Because I've found that if you point fingers if you'll augmented if you'll blaming then you don't you don't see change because they're not going to let especially a woman some high powered man. There's nothing to let a woman make him look stupid by saying. Oh your rights him. I'm wrong change. I believe has to come from within. And so if you can reach the heart and there was a medical research lab and I managed to get better conditions in that lab by reaching the heart of the director of the lab telling stories about the chimps and there was another director Alab. This is slightly different. But he had a sixteen year old daughter who came to one of my ledges and I was showing secretly filmed footage of the awful conditions in the lab of which he was director conditions of the chimps. He said is don't came back. One day from this Lech sobbing. I'm saying daddy or so cruel. How can you do this? And he said Jane two years. I absolutely hated you. But he said please. Could you come and see the lab now because you are right and I never accused him directly through his daughter and he changed the lab completely The last story I love I was in a taxi was very early in the morning. I was very tired. I was going to have a snooze on the way to the airport and he had that I was one of those animal lovers and oh he couldn't stand that and his sister was one of those animal lovers to the all these poor people a why won't be helping them. What was it about animals who I thought. Oh well that's the end mice news and I pulled up the window. Lean forward in the jump seat and I told him stories about the chimps and stories about dogs all the way to the airport. We got there. He just grunted and you know. I really didn't make any difference but I had to try. He owed me ten pounds at the end because he didn't have any change so I said we'll give it to you for the work. She does in the shelter animal. I never thought he would but I got back two weeks later. There was a letter from the system and she said festival. I really want to thank you for your donation. Secondly what did you do to my brother? She said he's listening to me. He's been three times to help me in the shelter. So it's always worth doing your best because you never know what effect that is going to have. Sometimes you will never know. It was pure luck that ended the way it did. That's incredible and if if we if we dig into that just a little bit more whether it's that first director of the lab or the cabdriver you mentioned telling stories about the chimps but there are many different ways to tell stories and there are many stories that could be told. What types of stories did you tell either of them that you think could have had that impact? Our I talked about the strong bonds between family members the ON MATERNAL BEHAVIOR. I told stories like when one infant lost his mother who was three years old. It will mel. He didn't have an older brother or sister who would have adopted him with sets what they do but he was adopted. I A twelve year old unrelated adolescent male. Who carried him around shed? His food with him drew him into the night necessarily they slept called up together and most amazing the analysts mail. You should keep well out of the way of adult males socially roused charging screaming. But it'll mel who normally would have been taken away by his mother before he got into danger and spindle risk everything by running in to rescue him if he got too close to those miles even though he was beaten up quite badly himself go see. There's a legal analyst miles of scapegoats for the big meals and he saved Mel's life nominee question. Gus The kind of story that I turn you also seem to be A aside from an expert storyteller very good at using imagery or symbols and sometimes stories themselves are symbols. But could you describe MR H? Who's Mr H H was given to me twenty eight years ago? I mind call Gary Horn. Which is why he's missed. H I'm Gary. When blind when he was two and he won decided to become a magician. Everybody said but Gary you can't be a magician if you're blind. He does shows for children. I watched him three or four times now and of course he sets his props up ahead of time. Children don't know he's blind and at the end he'll tell him and he'll say you know something might go wrong in your life. You can't tell if it does. Don't give up the police away and he does scuba diving cross country skiing skydiving but I think most amazing. He taught himself to paint and when he gave me Mr h e thought he was giving me stuff chimp but Mr Age has a tail and I made him hold detail he said never mind taking with you and you know. I'm ready in spirit. So he's one of those examples of the indomitable human spirit doing skydiving when you're blind teaching themselves to paint and there's a picture in this little book called blind artists which you can only get on Amazon and as a portrait of Mr H. He's never seen him. He's only fell to him. And it's unbelievable and MR H if I'm not mistaken has been many places with you I is. I don't know if you still have Mr h but I have eight. She's in this room with me By get take him to elect show he'd be a child who bust into tears. I wanted to touch Mr h because I tell them they inspiration. Russell but you know I have other symbols. I have one of the long long long I think of. I'm trying to make my my hands over to foot at that from the wing of a California condor. I've got the proper permits for it. And they were. They were downed twelve buds. And now the story many of them flying the skies. And so I have that as a symbol of the pack. We can save animals from extinction. I've got a piece of the Berlin Wall. There was a time after the war when we go up at Berlin Wall was up forever between East and West Germany but it came down. Wolves do come down despite. What one of our country's presidents thinks about roles And so I. I carry these symbols me. I've got a piece of limestone mcquarry Wa Nelson Mandela Labor for twenty one years. I think it was twenty one years in a limestone quarry. I'm before he attained his freedom and moved his country out of the evil regime of apartheid. Do you still have jubilee? And could you explain who jubilees jubilee? You know so. Many people think that because my father gave me a very large stock chimpanzee when I was one and a half but that is why I chose to study. Chimpanzees couldn't be further from the truth but I did love Jubilee and Jubilee. I had when I was one and a half and I'm sixty. I mean eighty-six now so you can imagine he's nearly board now and he's actually sitting in the National Geographic Exhibition in DC In a specially built bullet proof glass case. Because I didn't want him. You Know I. It's dangerous them to go away. He's much to purchase but he was hand carried and he's sitting down. That exhibition is going to go online. They they've made some way of showing it to people so people will be able to see the real jubilee in that school. Becoming Jane generally went with me everywhere when I was a child. I mean literally everywhere and when you then had your own child after your experiences with your mother. My understanding is that You didn't have much of a relationship with your father but more so with your mother and then your experiences with the a chimpanzee mothers flow for instance. How did you think about mothering or parenting? I I imagine a lot of it was very primal drive. That was created new. But what did you decide? Were there any decisions based on what your Mother did with you or what? You observed in flow and others that affected your parenting style or mothering style. You know. Sneha Julio baby tight I'm really an when when I was pregnant. I Two five Mother Rain Nuggets in Africa. I by the way mom raised me. I don't just fought with elaborate. That actually has some really sound advice but I also thought about flow and all those three examples along with as you say assaultive instinct because after the baby was born of course. I adored him that comb Jane Forgotten. What a gorgeous baby was essentially and. Jonty anyway so what I learned from the Chimp. Mothers just like us. There are good and bad mothers and the good chimp. Mother's like mine support that child even if they know they're going to get attacked. They will run to rescue their child from danger. And the offspring of those now we can look back and find that they tend to do better. They more assertive more confident. The males reach a higher position. The hierarchy probably simul offspring and the females. A better mothers but the one thing that I really took away from from Flow and the other chimp mothers. They love to play with their babies would spend hours playing with them and I thought yes. I'm GonNa have fun with my baby too. I think so too mother's Day lying on my back and sort of dangling. Grab from my feet and tickling him and things like that so I had a lot of fun with him and that came through chimps. How did he get the name? Grub very silly. He was born about the same time as little chimp could Goblin and Goblin was a very messy eater. I mean all the other chimps would tumble around playing come out sleek and black. And he had he'd have every burr around Dr his his hair and one case he got hold of a very big banana. It was about as big as him and he's eating it but you know he thought too much so he takes a mouthful large Michael. He spits it into his hand. He looks at it. And then he smashes the hand with a banana space at my son. he was a message to tweet. Didn't want to be weaned and he didn't like baby food and he would do much like Goblin. He was complete mess with it and so it became Goblin Goblin grump and then my son became grumbling. He's real name is probably nightmares. Roughly UH and in in in the film Jane. I'm referring to for people listening in. We don't have to spend a ton of time on this. If you prefer to discuss other things but I I found myself wondering after Grubb was really raised in the Bush and Had this natural existence at at some point the decision was made to help him socialize and be educated and I remember the footage in this film of walking down the street hand in hand in London. What was it like for him going from these all natural environments to that urban environment and being dropped off at school and just as the time after that he was dropped off you know he was quite a bit of time on note in verse us in Nairobi and we did go to school last. Wasn't that you and also my mother had been out visiting twice so he knew very very well and when you went back to England he wasn't just dumped in the school. He went to live where I am now in this house. I'm actually in the room. And so he was with an extended family and he la actually loved school. So you know it wasn't it. It's pseudo sounds brutal but it more brutal for me than him to see enjoyed school and I felt that I shouldn't have let him go. But I wouldn't have non family hadn't been there wasn't a very loving home and it wasn't really that strange. How you relate to being alone. It seems that you're very comfortable. Incredibly comfortable spending time solitary by yourself Certainly in Africa. That seemed to be the case. A how do you relate to that? I think that being alone is something many people. Fear How do you think about it relate to it you know the Child? I was ending hours alone out the guards watching insects with my dog. Going up and down the former to actually really good training. Gumby it's a different and suspend hours up in the top of my favorite tree which I'm looking at right now Beach is a beach tree. And I felt up near the buds on Costa I. I don't know a wonderful feeling being alone being alone in the forest in gumby absolute bliss and the biggest problem with my life on the road is that I have so little time alone. So hotel rooms come to be a haven in a way because I can shut and lock the door. I'm alone and do you find that you recharge by yourself or what. What is what is your experience like by yourself. I know that might sound like a strange question but many people busy themselves to avoid being alone are feeling alone. What what What does it feel like for you to be alone? Just feels really piece. It means that I can think my own thoughts I can do things like reading. I think being a child growing up without TV in a reading reading much less busy than watching a TV show. And I. I think it's very sad that so many children don't get to read more enough oldest television all the time you know. I was in love with chosen and when mom saved up to take me to probably the first Johnny Weissmuller film that came over. Great treat FA- J.J. Took me an after a little while I started to cry jets. Take me out yet. What emphasis the matter? I said but that wasn't Tarzan because as there was no TV. No movies I had my own. Tauzin that I fell in love with wasn't jumping. Weisman would have that opportunity anymore. Because right from the beginning that deluge with wisdom information of how they should see the world the you you strike me as someone with not just unique perspectives on the world but a unique capability in sharing them through not not just storytelling and sheer endurance. But also a high degree of of compassion and this is all a way of leading up to a question related to something you mentioned earlier and that is you just a handful of days ago really a turned eighty six and you seem as sharp as ever as busy as ever. Someone on your team was saying that you they they're impression is that you seem to work from six am to ten. Pm with the exception of a dog. Walk in the middle to. What do you attribute you the maintenance of or maybe even increase of your mental clarity and sharpness and endurance? For such a long period of time people obviously inherited very good genes from my father. Actually that was a major contribution he made to who I am. A lot of the rest of it came from but he had he was tough and strong He could endure so he was in the war anyway. what do I attributed to? While I don't actually think people say do you have do you exercise. Do you meditate. What what food. What Diet and on and on like that. What supplements I see. Well I you know I just eat what's around I don't want to eat very much. I don't care about food. I don't take any supplements I don't have a special diet except time could you -Tarian or when I'm at home now Vegan And I don't have time to do exercise you being just the airports walking was the dog. Now yes but he's old and he's the only goal I've ever met who doesn't like walking. And even when he he didn't he's a whip it smell like cat morning honestly. It was like taking a reluctance snail out for a walk. It's because well I mean if you think about things and I've always loved writing. I think that's very important. I didn't want to be assigned to snow. Wanted to be a naturalist live with animals in light books about them and so I've always loved writing. My mother loved writing to cut. I have a story somewhere confined it now. I dictated to her when I was five and upset. Charming little story by Gerard with the neck. So long he'd reach up to the moon that's why it was always animals. Uc So telling stories thinking about stories that used to write a lot of poetry And just you know right now when I was younger what going to study chimps would mean that I'd be having this life and become thanks to becoming a certified calm when it first happened. I was really really disturbed this because you know why would people thinking about me like that was just me was unlucky person but then I realized well if people recognize me because of geographic and and come up once a signature of Selfie now Make use of it and be nice to them and smile at them and give them a brayshaw until him about roots shoes so there was a time when as I went around the US you could see the root shoot groups bringing up in like comment to the tail but obviously was look back on my life. Honestly Tim and I see that stages and the end of the state was across roads and it never seen. If I consciously made a decision it just was something that happened to change me and I think of made the right decision and I meant to be here and I meant to be doing this. Nut gives me extra. I suppose endurance to cope with it. I can't passionately about future. The Environment Animals Jovan and supposed because I think a lot I gained wisdom. I hope I want to share it. I think you're doing a fantastic beyond fantastic job and one thing I've also noticed gathered from people who work with you on your team and seen in videos. Is that people many fans of yours. Many people you you encounter become very emotional in your presence. They might break down in tears. For instance that is not always the case with figures who are well-known. How would you explain that or why do you? Why do you think that's the case that so many people get so emotional when they meet you? Look at piloted a lot and I THE AUSTIN. They don't seem to know and then they apologize. I know no don't apologize. It's something that some unreasonable. I inspire these. Tia's I ask them why they why that crying they will. I never thought I'd see you. I can't believe I'm seeing. I'm so happy to be to be here. And you made my dream come true and I suppose I don't know. My grandmother used to cry every time she was happy. Seems like that seems like you make a lot of people happy and perhaps it is. I mean as a messenger of hope in many respects that you give people hope I think that There's in some respects a real shortage of hope in in many people's minds and assume spend so much time evening gloom and doom and that is a hell of a lot of gloom and doom. I know but there's also such wonderful things happening am sharing the good stories of successes The nobility of so many people self sacrifice which we're seeing with the corona virus to Then then people realize all is not loss still a lot that we can do to make the subject of wild and automate chooses always at least one on often more people who come up and say I had lost hope but I promise you. I'm going to do my bit. Thank you for giving me some hope again and the job of mine of giving people hope is is a really important one right now right now more than perhaps before and it's so compelling. I think not just because you're good at giving people hope but also because you are in a way living proof and the poster child for what hope can enable you to do if that makes any sense. You're not just a passive commentator giving lip service to hope. I mean you are a case study in. How much fuel and endurance in part hope can provide. I think that's at least for me. Why it's so compelling and convincing and and inspiring so thank you for that. You said that your friend told you to teach your children to be to be optimistic. I it's it's really teach them up but you can tell stories until stories about people and encourage them and support them. I mean so. Many parents have set views on what they want to be. And the less Mike. It from my mother is it was. Nobody was thinking about going to Africa living with animals when I wanted to accept a few explorers you know who wanted to shoot them and put them in museums but when everybody laughed at me and said I'd never get there was just a girl. It was a war. We didn't have money. Mom said if you really want something like this. You're going to have to work really really odd. Take advantage of every opportunity. And if you don't give up you will find a way to do some do that or something. Something else that you really really want to do that story I that was done. I take an share with young people everywhere especially in disadvantaged communities and I wish mom knew how many people have said Jane Bank. You taught me that because you did it. I can do it to you have so many projects and opportunities ahead of you before I perhaps tie to close with a description of a few things that you have coming and then tell people where they can find out more about you and certainly follow along with your continued adventures. I'd be curious to ask if you had a billboard metaphorically speaking that could get a message out to billions of people could be a word of phrase a question and image really anything. What might you put on the billboard member that you make a difference every single day perfect? That could not be couldn't be more perfect. Dr Jane Goodall. You have a new documentary. This is certainly continuing to showcase the incredible work you do. This is Jane Goodall subtitled the hope which premiering Earth Day. That's this April twenty second nine eastern eight central on Nat Geo that she a wild Mundo. It is a two hour documentary. Special that will take viewers through chapters of your journey in sixty years since you're groundbreaking discoveries and Gumby researching while chimpanzees including your activism creation of your nonprofit organization and where and also where people can find more about you Jane Goodall Dot. Org that is the Jane Goodall Institute Jay Gi and Roots and shoots Richard Schutz Dot Org. That is your youth program along with your current efforts to inspire the next generation and I would go a step further and say not. Just efforts but successes. It's tremendously inspiring. Not just not just because of the ethos but the actual effect that you are having. It's just remarkable people can find you on social media. You're doing some very fun. Things like storytime with Dr Jane. But instagram. That is at Jane Goodall. Inst- like institute. I N S T twitter Jane Goodall inst- and same on facebook Jane Goodall inst- and then the roots and shoots is the same on facebook instagram and twitter. The handle is at roots and shoots. This has been such a tremendous honour and pleasure for me to spend so much time with you Appreciate your your generosity in granting the interview providing time and also really keep up the good fight and being a purveyor spreader of hope in a world where it is so easy to succumb to despair and hopelessness. It's it's just tremendous. It's it's really a gift that you are providing so I hope that that you're able to feel that and let that sink in at times but I appreciate you so much for taking the time to chat with me today. I want to thank you to meet a chance to chat to you. Like to buy lots and lots of people sometimes a bit boring. But I haven't been a tool board to into you so thank you. That really means so much and please keep it up. I will do my best to get your message. Your work this interview to many millions of people who hopefully will in turn share it and spread it because I think that that hope really is the foundation here upon which so much else depends and for everyone listening. I will have everything in the show notes links to everything we discussed at Tim. Dot blog forward slash podcast and Dr Jane Goodall. Thank you so much and I hope we get to meet in person someday. She'll we down to parents off. Hey guys this. Is Tim against a few more things before you take off number one then. This is bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from every Friday? That provides a little more soul of fun before the weekend and five. Friday's every short email. Where I share the coolest things I've found. Or that have been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that have discovered it could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of Weird Shit that somehow dug up in the world of the Esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends for instance and it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend so if you want to receive that check it out. Just go to four hour. Workweek DOT COM. That's four Hour Work Week. Dot Com all spelled out. And just drop in your email and you'll get the very next one and if you sign up. I hope you enjoyed. This episode is brought to you by Lincoln Marketing Solutions these days. The million messages per minute not enough hours in the day. How'd you really catch people's attention? This WILLINGTON can help with Lincoln ads. You can catch the right professionals. The right people at the right time. And I'll tell you how I'm using them personally in a minute. 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