Part Two: Roger Stone: Evil Genius or Sad, Broken Boy?

Automatic TRANSCRIPT

This is Ron burgundy telling you to listen to my podcast. Here's a little something to wet your appetite. You know, we have we have. So the whole crews here. Okay. All right. Okay. So you defecate it was reduced to my basic animal form. Romburg any podcasts available. Wherever putt guests are found. It's me Robert with the show Evans behind the bastards. This is the podcast that this is where we talk about the bad people, so fi you look very confused. They can't all be what's cracking my peppers? They're not all going to be perfect. I am Robert Evans. This is behind the bastards the show, we tell you everything you don't know about the very worst people in all of history. My guest for part two as part one is Tamika Thanh. Tay doing. Join the conversation. Are you ready to learn a little bit more about Roger sto? I'm ready. Learn more and ready to sleep less easy. Yeah. Well, that is the Roger stone guarantee. So one of the reasons I might believe the claim that Roger stone was a major influence on Trump's mind is the fact that he and Donald Trump really do have quite a long history of working together. Despite Donald Trump's do that's in twelve comments. That stone was a stone cold loser. He was happy to continue to work with the van after his nineteen ninety nine Reform Party candidacy failed in two thousand while he was helping George W Bush and Florida Roger stone also took time to help Donald Trump with a new pet project. A grassroots anti-gambling campaign. It was targeted at the mohawk nation. The tribe had opened the casino on their land in New York state and planned to open another casino in the Catskills at the time, Donald Trump owned three casinos in Atlantic City. The northeast's traditional gambling up clearly the mohawk nation represented a threat to this earnings of Donald Trump, the ad stone designed arm pretty on the edge. As far as racism goes. We've got a clip of one of them. Here which will have on the side by the bastards dot com. It says in big letters drug dealing at Monticello Monticello, whatever Thomas Jefferson's creepy house, and it's got like a picture of like a needle in lines of cocaine like a bag of drugs. And then it says quote, the Saint Regis mohawk. Indian tribe proposes to open a gambling casino at the Monticello racetrack and Sullivan county. How much do you really know about the Saint Regis mohawk Indians? According to the New York Times u s and Canadian law enforcement officials broke up the biggest cocaine trafficking ring in northern New York operating on the fourteen thousand acres Saint Regis mohawk reservation. Twenty six people were arrested. Police also confiscated nineteen shotguns and handguns and it goes on. Like this saying Indians are criminals that's the fear among they're just like the border crossing where they used pictures of people crossing the border in Spain. Yeah. Just lies about women being duct taped and stuff. Now this this ad which is pretty offensive is noted on the bottom as a project of the. New York institute for law and society you ever heard of the New York institute for lions society. Nope will claim to be a grassroots organization made up of twelve thousand pro-family donors, just you know, they don't like gambling. And he's been wanting more casinos in their neighborhood. The reality is that you could probably have counted. The actual number of donors using one hand Donald Trump put up virtually all of the money somewhere around one point five million dollars. Trump signed off on the ads and the language used in them and paid the bills for the private is stone hired to survey the tripe the whole operation was Rodgers plan because this organization violated Newark laws on lobbying because you're not allowed to pretend that something has a bunch of funders when it's just one guy who's doing it. So that his own casinos don't have competition. You're not supposed to do that. So the state investigated they wound up sitting down with Roger stone in interviewing him. Here's the L A times. Quote, stone told state investigators that he thought the public might pay attention to a pro-family group, but not to Trump allowed in longtime critic of native American. Gambling who is trying to stave off competition for his three casinos Antic city. You could hide Trump's actions from the public the investigators grilled stone. And you did that over and over again. Yes, stone answered each time. Finally, adding nothing is wrong with that. By the way. They're actually was something wrong with that trumpeter stone were fined two hundred fifty thousand dollars for breaking the law and required to pay more than thirty thousand dollars to run statements in Albany area. Newspapers was nothing for them. Yeah. It's just nothing for them. Yeah. This is the text of the statement, Donald Trump, Roger stone, and Thomas hunter apologize. If anyone was misled concerning the production funding of the lobbying effort that did not apologize for the ads content. Now over the next fifteen years there were dozens and probably hundreds of other stories like that. Roger stone developed a special hatred for Eliot Spitzer attorney general of New York from nineteen ninety nine hundred thousand six and then governor of the state and do this and seven now Elliott was born rich like shocking number of US politicians and his father had pumped millions of dollars into his career back in the mid nineties rhetoric in the time Elliott was elected governor. He threatened to release records about Republican Senate majority leader Joe Bruno there was basically like a rumor that Brennan had been using state aircraft to aid in his reelection campaign and Spitzer was going to lake release records that would prove that or not. And I think Bruno was eventually found not guilty of that. I'm not sure, but he was also later found taking a bribe and then got off on a technicality, but totally received like four hundred thousand dollars from some guy anyway. So so Joe Bruno Republican Senate majority leader of New York did not like Eliot Spitzer these guys were at each other's throats and in order to get back at his political enemy and to distract from his own corruption charges Joe Bruno called up Roger stone and offered him twenty thousand dollars a month to end Eliot Spitzer's career Roger gleefully dove into this effort to destroy another person one June morning in two thousand seven Elliott's eighty three year old father Bernard who suffered from Parkinson's woke up to find this message on his answering machine. Bernard spitzer. You will be subpoenaed to testify before the Senate committee on investigations on your shady campaign loans. You will be compelled by the Senate sergeant at arms if you resist the subpoena, you will be arrested in brought to Albany. And there's not a God damn thing. You're phony psycho piece of shit sun can do about it Bernie. You're phoning loans or about to catch up with you. You will be forced to tell the truth. And the fact that your son's pathological liar will be known to all. Yeah. By the way, that is when I quoted in the first episode Donald Trump calling him a loser and saying he's a liar and everything that's why. Because actually Donald Trump liked Eliot Spitzer's dad, and it was like actually like Donald Trump was morally offended by this message. That'd be a hard line to hit it. It's pretty gnarly to eighty three year old, man. Yeah. An ill eighty two year old who is the father of the guy. You don't like an attack him that way? Well, you got paid to you. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah. He didn't like him. But it's like his jockey paid to destroy his son. Not dad like how does that help you deal with Elliot's Switzer, he's just a gross person? Now Roger claims that that's not him. We're going to dig into that a lot here. That's as much as suits or him. That's a pinstripe voice. I will let you know what we'll put in a link to that particular audio clip on the site. It includes after the the voice mail several clips of just Roger talking shirt for yourself. That's fucking Rogers sound so ham like Bernard Spitzer hired a PI who traced the call back to Rogers apart one stuff. Like, it's it's definitely Roger stone in less your Roger stone. Now, Roger has always denied making that call. He has in some recent interviews quietly said it does sound a lot like me. But he blamed it at the time on former stand up comedian in radio host. Randy critic. Oh, now, we're going to be talking about Randy credit co a little bit later today to. Yeah. Yeah. Ready credit co was like a comedian. He was on like Leno. Sometimes he did like improv and the stone was basically like he's so good at doing fake voices. He pretended to be this guy in this guy. It's clearly him pretending to be me in credit. Co was. Like, I haven't even talked to Roger in years. Why would I do this, which why would you do something? So mean and evil comic one thing to be like that funny. Maybe this comedian called up the governor of New York to leave a machete messages someone else. Okay. I can imagine that happening like Opie and Anthony, but his dad why and the and there was no there's no Gellew in at all. It's just cruelty. Yeah. Now stone in credit co had met back in two thousand three in Randy hit introduced Roger Al Sharpton Sharpton hit hired stone to help with his two thousand four presidential run. Probably in the hope that Sharpton campaign would take votes away from John Kerry. Roger would later tell the Washington Post, quote, critical became convinced that he should get paid for introducing me to Sharpton. He refused to do. So stone continues because well credit co is a cocaine addict and stone knew that any money. He gave to the guy would go quote up his nose. So Roger stone leaves this really gross message. It's obviously him he blames it on a friend of his that he has. Talked to in years and also says the guy's a coke addict. Now, this may sound a little bit familiar to course. But also Roger stone when it came out that he'd been putting up sex ads in magazines like no, it was my housekeeper. Yeah. Like and Trump thrown his on his own son-in-law under the bus. No singer. No one is safe. Yeah. It's a gross weight live. It really is in the only way you can live that way is if you have more money than God. You don't kills me is all my life. I've grown up watching these Hollywood films. And I always just a sense of Justice is what kept me happy. Yeah. Believing in things like karma believing that things come around. This is a movie where the bad guy went is winning so far and Mike. Why is this movie so long why why is this movie my entire life? Gotta get it. In the middle of a horror movie ask such a jerky. Like, I can't wait till he dies. 'cause I know it's going to be something horrific. The Paul Manafort story has been there for me because just like seeing him denied to wear a sued recently like hill and clearly not healthy. And just like yet die in prison. Paul. I'm violently angry about Paul Manafort, I spent time in Ukraine. Yeah. And I saw a lot like Roger stone's a piece of shit. But like, maybe this makes the episode weaker. But no one will ever match the hate that we do on the show that I have for Paul Manafort, just let's deserve it. I mean, look how many millions. He's literally responsible for millions of millions of. Oh, yes. Yeah. I mean, millions of deaths civil or going for a decade longer than. Yeah. Yeah. Conservatively five or six hundred thousand deaths in that conflict alone for money for money for when he didn't need all the money you need. He needed already. I could talk shit about. No, no, no. I mean, I I get I get really worked up when we talk about Manafort, but it's also worth noting that like there's almost a way you could say Roger stone is even grocer. Because at least Paul Manafort was getting involved was in the trenches dealing with those people Roger stone, which just cashing their checks. Just like, yeah. I don't give a shit where this money comes from. So you could say that's grocer. Yeah. You could say that's grocer. Maybe it is. Now Randy credit co is going to come back into the story a little bit later. But what's important right now is that Bruno fired stone after this voice mail came out, you know, but Eliot Spitzer wound up going down. Anyway, it's kind of debatable as to whether or not it was Rogers dirty tricks that were responsible that there was a federal wiretap in a New York Times report about him that revealed he'd been spending tens of thousands of dollars in high priced prostitutes. And his big thing was like he sleeps with prostitutes while wearing a sock. Doc, that's Roger stone. Dow's rod Vatsa stone detail, Roger stone repeated that detail to every newspaper in the goddamn world's heady. It's very pellet. Jerry's has a really subtle understanding of how humanity works. Yeah. Something that like, even if I was that sort of a person, I wouldn't think that that detail would matter. He knew that it totally did. Yeah. And we don't even know him. Maybe he made that detail. Maybe just knew that something that will stick in their heads. But I also see that one being true because Eliot Spitzer undoubtably lose hanging out with a lot of prostitutes. Sure, which I wouldn't have an issue with if you hadn't been an attorney general and thus responsible for prosecuting prostitution is. But it's debatable. You'll hear people say that stone dropped the dime on Spitzer to the FBI. And that's why there was the investigation. And that's where everything came out that he did bus Spitzer this way. I haven't found hard proof of that. There was definitely a federal wiretap in New York Times report about him, it's entirely possible that Roger. Stone that his main contribution was dropping that story about the socks and that like he just sort of like, oh, this is a happy accident. I really don't know. But it seems pretty likely that he had a significant role in Spitzer's political downfall that does seem likely for sure all the tales of Roger stone's crappy Lenz over the years prompted the New Yorker to write a profile of him in two thousand eight I that article is the first place at least the first major outlet were Roger started talking about what he called stones rules. These include such chunks of political wisdom as he who speaks first loses attack attack attack, never defend admit nothing deny everything launch counterattack. And when I hear the word culture, I reach for my revolver. Wow. So there was another one there's a lot. There's an endless number of the one that makes my skin crawl is that hate is a greater motivator than love. And that's the one that makes my skin crawl because that is the Trump campaign. Yeah. And every campaign he's been involved. I mean, that's fascism, man. Like that's the core. Ideological not that. I don't think Donald Trump is an ideological anything. But that is the core of that political philosophy hate and fear a hell of a lot more powerful than love. Yeah. Although Hitler would have said, no. It's the love of the Volcker whatever that is. I don't know. I'm going to argue with dead Hitler. Reasonable men in Hitler can disagree. I'll let you win. Yeah. Taken stand there. We all win against we do. He's said we're still here as you're stupid suck on that Hitler. Yeah. With your baby mustache, you free. Stupid mustache. I don't know. Like, I part of me wonders like if Hitler hadn't ever been Hitler. Would that mustache be around would like we all have a friend with in east Hollywood for sure Philly people dip their toes with the Hitler, youth hair. The dip their toes. I mean that shaved on the sides. Look is nice. Yeah. You can you can work looks nice comeback. But yeah, it's baby moustache. Jason it's baby. Moustache jason. I know it's one of those things where like at the time. It was like this. We're way off topic. But that was considered like a working man's mustache is you don't have to groom at or any an honest man's mustache. And so that's kind of like what Hitler was repping to everyone. God, I'm just a normal working Joe. Like you. Yes. I think that's the thing that he sees the way like a great athlete or a great shafir. Great artists can see things that normal. People. Can't see I think he sees these subtleties. He sees like a naked man wearing socks and goes. That's not presidential. Yeah. That's ridiculous. Does desperately silly. That can hurt him. No one will take him serious. Having this in their shave my moustache. So they look at me and say, I'm one of them like he's got that kind of. I n if we're looking at what is there some aspect of what I I have a part of me believes that anyone is prominent is someone like regionals become there is an aspect of genius at play. Like there is with half Tallec Jones. Yeah. You you have to otherwise they become too powerful. Yeah. You have to allow yourself to have a level of respect. So you can figure out how to deconstruct them. And I think you've I didn't really figure it out when I was writing this. But I think you've nailed what it is that his geniuses is recognizing those. It's not the actual tricks. He plays. It's knowing how to present things in a way that leave in Delobel image in people's heads. And I think the Spitzer thing like really focusing on those socks that he's wearing all these fucking these call girls. I think that nails it. I think that's like what he's good at. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll that will actually be talking about some more stuff like that a little bit later. So yeah. Roger stone's starts in like the early two thousands talking about stones rules all the time. Every interview. He does he'll drop the rules. You know? This is my rule. Here is my rule here. This is much trying to brand himself. Here's a quote from the New Yorker, his outfit comported with two of the rules in his book stones rules for war, politics, food fashion and living, which he hopes to publish soon. Never wear a double breasted suit and a button down collar and white. I just love the idea that it's like such a Michael Scott thing to do is have the name of a book that you haven't written that Utah to an interview for Sesa Mason. Yeah. Michael scar. Just like because I started looking up that book. And I was like, oh, he hadn't written that with this came out just trying to make it a thing. I am proud to say on behalf of Roger that. He did eventually, right? Kind of that book. It wasn't the same title, but you can buy it. You know stones rules how to win at politics business and style from the info wars store right now. Unbelievable. Yeah. It currently has twelve reviews. So wow, got really be on the ground area. Low for this is the copy. And he's covering is weird bird lips as covering his weird bird list. Got like his his hand at his at his lips or something. Yeah. He's a he really. I think he's trying to cover those jowls or something. Interesting choice that he would cover up half his face such an arrogant, man, it shows you simultaneously, arrogant and insecure nobody who's obsessed with fashion can be secure in their. Yeah. I agree. Nobody who fucking worries about what they're suspenders are called secure in their physical form. He's he's the opposite of the cat that stares in the mirror that sees a lion as a lion that stares in the mirror and sees a cat a little baby kitten who he so weak. Yeah. That's what all this peacocking is like an old lady that used to be really sexy, whereas the miniskirt, and you're like, that's not you this guy sixty six and he still calls himself a quote, unquote, tough guy. Well, and it's like he also needs to be attached to some bigger, man. He he doesn't do anything on his own because he's in. He's the kitten. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whether or not it's Alex Jones, Donald Trump. He's. Always attached to somebody. Exactly, he sees the sidekick. Yeah. He's kind of like a chronic sleazy sidekick of right wing firebrand exam here. Like Darth Vader had a talk show he'd be evil at Vic, man. Yeah. Yeah. He about right now that two thousand eight New Yorker interview also revealed that Roger stone had in two thousand seven gotten a photo accurate back tattoo of the head of his hero. Richard nixon. The article also noted that stone tans twelve months a year in drinks four triple expresses every day stone talked about his recent move to Miami saying it's a sunny place for shady people. Yeah. That's a good quote. The man could turn phrase every now that was that's a good one. It is a good one. Yeah. And you knew he was an actor for a while in high school. No, I didn't even run across. Yeah. He's an he was an actor for a short time in high school, and when he got into politics, he he said this. He said, I then realized that axiom politics were the same. Oh, see like a lot of people had that experience. Now more than ever with the transparency the internet's creating I mean fucking Ronald Reagan. Yeah. Very true. Yeah. Road bedtime for Bonzo right to the Oval Office. Let's just make it stop before the rock. That's all I want. You know, what again, not the worst case scenario anymore. Sure, I've had enough Robert. Why not? You smell with the president is good. I can't take that. We soothing to just have a nice person in there. Yeah. I mean, maybe the I'm sure the climate will continue its unheeded acceleration into in sustainable like like greenhouse nightmare. But at least the president could be friendly. Hey, right. Hey, right. I think that should be the minimum requirement. We should have someone whose character is at a level that we just go. Okay. This is a decent human being who is at least trying for the good of the country like Jimmy Carter and actually like no one else. But like Jimmy Carter. Well, he's he's a nice person. You're not a great president. Okay. So we are going to continue talking about Roger stone and get into his downfall. I think it's fair to say downfall. I agree. It is going to be the most satisfying cathartic part of this podcast. Amen. But I, you know, what's even more cathartic than the downfall of a monster. Tell me I was just thinking about catharsis. Wonderful services in products that are provided by the advertisements in front of. You know, people say necessity is the mother of invention. But that's not always true. Sometimes the mother of invention is advertising. Yeah. Or pure accident. How about ego maniacal delusion? Absolutely. Or just a desperate longing. To be cool. I'm Robert lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. We're the host of the science podcasts stuff to blow your mind. And now we're branching off into the exploration of invention. Invention is the story of human history told one piece of technology at a time the things we made and how they made us invention publishes every Monday, listen and subscribe to invention on apple podcasts the iheartradio app or wherever you find your podcasts. We're back listeners while those wonderful ads that you were spending your money on we're running. We started to suspect that Roger stone's greatest crime. May in fact, have been appropriating the phrase, it's a sunny place for shady people from someone else. We've found a sunglasses line in a book or the book came out after that interviewed it so it's hard to say Roger may have stolen that line from someone. Yeah. So he's going to do that research, and we'll we'll get back to you or not. If nothing interesting comes up, we won't get back to you. And pretend this didn't happen anyway. So in two thousand eight while he was doing that interview. It was not a great time to be a Republican in politics. You know, Bama had just kind of bum rushed the McCain campaign. Yeah. It didn't look like they're publicans. We're going to be back in power for a little while. I'm black man. A white war hero Beatles. White war hero, and whatever Sarah Palin is. And yeah, it was a it was looking like a rough time for Republican political Asher. So in that interview. Roger stone noted quote, the left has done a better job of dominating the new space. We're week on the web so little foreshadowing their question about the McCain campaign. Roger stone advised, quote, an acceleration slash and burn campaign against Barack Obama Obama and his wife are elitists in their week. They don't share middle class values middle class Americans are proud of their country, and they are not he thinks he's going to sit down with Iran and HAMAs. How do you know, he's not gonna shake hands? With the suicide bomber you can't sit down with people who don't want to sit down always going to do is raise taxes, which is going to give the government more money, but it's not going to create any jobs. Remember stone said politics is not about uniting people. It's about dividing people and getting your one percent. Wow. That's Roger stone and Paul Manafort, and motherfucking nutshell, you know, what it might be his own thirst for attention the attention. You never got from his dad that's going to be his downfall. Because he's he can't not speak to the press. He's underestimating people. Yeah. He even though he said he said this plenty of times that his target audiences. Not the elite is not the sophisticated is not people who study or read up on politics. But now he's underestimating their ability to read things about him and for them to still be hypnotized. So here he kind of spinning off of that. I'm not sure if it's underestimating them or if it's a fundamental. He can't understand politics is not about politics to him. It's about the same thing. A game a monopoly. Yeah. Getting into a game monopoly. And so he is incapable of realized like, no, Roger the things that you are doing have are impacting people's lives in horrible negative ways. When these politicians and they put in these these shorts. Needed policies that fuck up in lead to all the terrible things that these different politicians you've supported over the years have done like win these things impact people's lives. They get angry. And then they hear you talking about like dividing people, and they're like, I can't talk to half my family were all screaming at each other. Like, you can't understand what it's like to be in that situation because none of this means that to you. Yeah. Where the United States of America and to hear like a campaign manager or political strategist for the president of the United States of America that his tactic was to divide. Yeah. A country whose foundation was about uniting. Yeah. It's just so heartbreaking. Well, it's one of those things you couldn't until recently get away with like you remember when a Barack Obama was running and he made that comment about people cleaning to their guns in their bibles. That was a huge. I was still very much in the right wing media bubble at that point in time in my life. And that was a huge issue being like, and he and then there's good reason to be pissed about that. If you're if you're a bible believing Christian if you're someone who grew up shooting and has done that your whole life and live in a place where like, yeah, that's an offensive thing. They stereotype and he had he had to address that shit in any presidential candidate up until twenty sixteen would have had to face consequences for a statement like that a guy like Roger stone has never had to because he's not a candidate ever in. It's almost never transparent who he's advising. And so he's never had to be that. Careful Jay think we're getting to the part of the story where that bites him in the ass. Yeah. Yeah. So it's worth noting before we move on from the two thousand eight that during that election, he formed the group citizens United not timid to oppose Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign. Literal, acronym Kant. Yeah. Oh, nice guy. Roger now and two thousand ten two years into Eliot Spitzer's political exile. Roger stone's struck again after being laid off you'd apparently found another set of backers wealthy Republicans his description who paid him to make sure Spitzer's political career stayed dead. And this is where the after Spitzer's already at this where he started talking about the socks like this is where he started spraying that myth, and he claims that he was like at an adult club and met a girl who is friends with a girl who'd worked with Spitzer. And she told him the story. It's it's like I was talking to my prostitute friend. And she said this is how silly this two years after Spitzer's out as governor because he's already been disgraced. Yeah. So unbelievable. Yeah. Anyway, Roger stone's seems to have grown less cost. And careful in his golden years. Maybe it's the corrupting influence of social media. But over the last decade, he's racked up a pretty horrifying compilation of sexist remarks. Here's media matters. Stone tweeted that New York Times columnist Gail Collins is in elitist cont MSNBC host Rachel Maddow is Rachel. The muff. Diver Fox News is Meghan. Kelly has a nice set of cans and Representative Debbie Wasserman Schultz is a Jap acronym for Jewish American Princess thought that was going to be one kind of racist. But with another who is every man's first wife. He also tweeted diabetic at former New York Times executive editor Jill Abramson and said he would kill himself if he was married to screechy, and she'll Carly Fiorina the sun sentinel, also reported that stone called Florida politician. Barbara stern a self-important nasty Kant on Twitter. So lest I leave the impression that Rogers bigotry is limited to women. Here's a bunch of racists, stuffy, said stones tweets include attacks, like stupid, negro, fat, negro, arrogant know, it all negro uncle, Tom. Mandingo and house negro stone tweeted that commenter Roland Martin is a stupid negro and a fat negro commentator Herman Cain is a Mandingo. And former Representative Allen west is an arrogant know, it all negro he also tweeted that commentator Al Sharpton is a professional negro who likes fried chicken asked if former Republican presidential candidate. Ben Carson was an uncle Tom in referred to himself. As an inward with a Nixon tattoo. He did not use the phrase inward those uncomfortable paragraph to state, but this is all stuff Roger stone said mostly by Republicans. He's just no they rejected him. Yeah. They reject the mainstream wants dead. Yeah. Mainstream Republicans rejected him, and he's attacking he's he's a hurt man. Yeah. He's a he's a hurt man. And in two thousand fourteen he got his chance to push in pain back out into the world that is the year when Donald Trump again to execute his campaign run for president. Now, roy. Richard stone was reportedly Donald Trump's number one consultant for the early stages of his bid, according to Joshua green, the author of devil's bargain, a book about the election, quote inside Trump's circle this power of illegal immigration to manipulate popular sentiment was readily apparent and his advisors brainstormed methods for keeping their attention adult boss on message the needed a trick. And a monarch device in the summer of two thousand fourteen they found one that clicked according to Sam Nunn Burke, who worked with Trump during this period Roger stone, and I came up with the idea of the wall, and we talked to Steve Bannon about it. It was to make sure Trump talked about immigration, initially, Trump seemed indifferent to the idea, but in January two thousand fifteen he tried it out at the freedom summit a presidential cattle. Call put on by David Bossi's group, citizens United one of his pledges was I will build a wall and the place just win. That's. That's what you're talking about. It's like with the socks knows. That's something. That'll stick in people's exactly. You gotta drive them. I think that is his major contribution hundred percent hundred percent. That's why even when he's fired people keep them. So Roger stone stole his catchphrase about Florida from a nineteen forty one novel O M, Somerset, mon- or Mongan. I don't know how to pronounce it. But I've seen that name before. Wow. Yet, another uncovered you. Shady son of a bitch. So. What's funny to this is almost like when you go to jail, and you don't want anybody to mess with you. See just throw human poop on you. Yeah. And everyone's scared to touch you. I think he plays so dirty in so gross. That people are like, I know he's doing something legal, but I don't wanna fight with him because he fights like a homeless person. Yeah, he's going to bite and scratch and stab. He's it's so bizarre. How broken this guy? I didn't think during this conversation out actually feel sorry for this guy. But that's what I do. There's a deep core of sadness to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It becomes clear. The more you dig into like what he's done his whole life. That's the Justice is. Yeah, he wants us to think he's strong even calls himself, a bodybuilder and tattoos of man's face on his back that he thinks his strong, and really he's just this insecure. Weak broken laroque little boy. Yeah. Yeah. They all are at some. Yeah. Yeah. Now stones time with the Trump campaign did not last. All that long in August of two thousand fifteen after a performance in one of the Republican primary debates that was wrongly considered to be disastrous for the Trump campaign. You remember that? Yeah. Yeah. Roger quit or was fired. Roger claims he quit at least Trump says that he fired Roger Roger says that he quit and basically fired Trump from anyway, it's. Who knows they each side? He was getting too much airtime for Trump's tastes. But was not the hypotheses that might be part of it. And it might also be that after that. Roger also thought that things were going badly with the campaign and didn't want like be attached to it anymore because it looked bad back. Then for John. Nobody was guessing Republicans were yacht, grooming. Get Trump out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people were angry. So that may have been why that happened. He was trying to anyway, this was not the end of the stone. Trump relationship though, according to one version of events, at least Roger stone was responsible for hooking Donald Trump up with Paul Manafort who at that point lived in Trump Tower, but did not actually know Donald. Well, some people say that stone is the guy who pushed Manafort on Trump, basically in order to give himself an in with the campaign that he'd probably been fired from if true this would be inappropriate reversal of Rogers agreement to act as manafort's proxy in the younger publicans so many years before it's nice little bit of symmetry. Yeah. It would be nice. If the only person either of them is capable of doing a single altruistic thing for. Is the other? If like, the one nice thing Paul Manafort every did was for Roger stone and vice versa. Like, it's funny. You know, I think when Manafort got hired I think in the documentary was stone who quoted his quote win Manafort got hired was back in the saddle again. Yeah. Like humpback. He knew that was his way back into the campaign. Yeah. And it does seem like and we'll see how things go now. But it seems like four a while the two were pretty good at being solid with each other backstab a lot of other people, but they were usually on the same side of things when they were both involved in the same thing. Some of that maybe that Manafort was really more overseas, you know, after like the eighties regularly second episode of survivor, but in DC. I mean, that's kind of. A union attack everybody else. Yeah. Just Roger stone and Paul Manafort against the world, the only smart member of that group in the long-term turned out to be black who has just got rich and decided to commit more crimes. Oh boy. Now, most of what we are going to talk about from here on out Roger stone's relationship with WikiLeaks and the impossibly criminal behavior. He engaged in on behalf of the Trump campaign. All of this is very controversial. We don't know exactly what happened yet. Because obviously the Muller reports not out there are competing versions of vents in competing suspicions of how things went down one thing. That is crystal clear about this time is that Roger stone was instrumental in bringing Alex Jones and Donald Trump together. Which again, that's why I brought up about conspiracies early. Here's always had that thing and starting in about two thousand thirteen he analysis Jones start being buddies eventually becomes a he's an Infowars employee for the last three years. So he's he's like hosting a show. He's reported there. He's making probably twenty twenty five grand a month. And I do want to I want to plug quickly here. Knowledge fight the podcast that talks about Alex Jones shows just did a fantastic episode on all of this year. If you go to knowledge fights website at knowledge fight are. Just look them up on Google knowledge. Fight the January twenty fifth two thousand nineteen episode. They're going to a lot more granular detail about this than we're going to because we're kind of covering his whole life. They this moron his shadiness with WikiLeaks. It's great. I really recommend it. But yeah. So it's unclear when exactly Alex and Roger became friends, but it's very clear that Roger was the reason that Donald Trump sort of got keyed into the fact that info wars existed at all because I don't think Donald Trump was listened to a lot of info wars in the nineties or whenever now in December of two thousand fifteen Donald Trump's showed up on Infowars and praised Alex Jones as having an amazing reputation as the two thousand sixteen election picked up steam stone became a more frequent guest on info wars on August. Fourth two thousand sixteen he showed up as a guest on the Infowars radio show at this point, Alex Jones was telling his listeners that Hillary Clinton was about to resign as a presidential candidate under the shame of a massive criminal indictment now at this point and number of hacked DNC emails had already been released via WikiLeaks st-. Tone claimed on air on August fourth to know about the upcoming release of more hacked DNC emails on WikiLeaks. He also claimed to have spoken with Donald Trump on August. Third more recent releases as part of the molar investigation if shown that on the fourth the same Bastogne was on info wars, he emailed Trump adviser Sam Nunn. Berg and told him he'd had dinner with Julian Assange the night before which if you're keeping track would be the same day he claimed to have met with Trump. So. When we talk about evidence of collusion. There is some definitely speaking of collusion this podcast colludes with a number of fantastic sponsors that help keep the lights on and allow us to do this show. So police collude with us bringing you this information by colluding with capitalism to purchase products. This is Ron burgundy telling you to listen to my podcast. Here's a little something to wet your appetite right now, I'm a little terrified because I don't know what a podcast is. Let's take some calls caller number one year on with Ron burgundy, what's on your mind. No callers. No. Because people aren't listening in time. Schick got it. If you are listening to this and have downloaded by mistake. Please turn it off. Now, turn it off. No, we have we live. So the crews here, okay? All right. Okay. So if you're Taurus, your horoscope is come on pull you together Kelly. I saw you defecate. I was reduced to my basic angle. Rumba? Vailable whatever podcasts are found. All right. We're back, and we are talking about Roger stone on the two thousand sixteen election now over the course of two thousand sixteen Roger stone repeatedly played the role of hype man for WikiLeaks release of democratic campaign documents as well as Clinton advisor, John Podesta's emails on August twenty first he tweeted trust me, it will soon be time in the barrel. Hashtag crooked Hillary shortly thereafter, Wiki leaks. Published a cache of John Podesta's leaked mails. Roger frequently spoke on ener, info wars and wrote articles on Breitbart pooh-poohing, the idea that Russia had anything to do with all these hacks and pushing the narrative that goose for two point, oh, the person behind the DNC hacks was an independent activist hero in stones telling and not an agent of the Russian government now on election night, two hundred sixteen Roger stone's celebrated with his good, buddy. Alex Jones, the two drank champagne and saluted the dawn of a brave new era, but for Roger and probably for Alex to the end of the fun times was finally ni-. Donald Trump's upset victory. Got a lot of people to start looking much. More closely on whether or not there had been any collusion with WikiLeaks or the Russian government within the Trump campaign it quickly became apparent that USA for two point. Oh, wasn't fact Russian operative. He fucked up and gave investigators the digital equipment of DNA evidence that he was a spy, and of course, later leaked chat logs revealed that Roger stone had been communicating with him. Same thing happened with WikiLeaks. It's again still a little bit unclear. Exactly how all of this maps out. It seems like what happened is. Roger stone was communicating with a guy named drew Coursey who was one of the major origin points for like the birther bullshit methane and who also had connections with WikiLeaks. And that was his go between he was sort of working directly with WikiLeaks that way, and he definitely there's also been reports that he was sort of selling himself to the Trump campaign since he'd been kicked out as an adviser as a liaison to WikiLeaks and was coordinating with the campaign, probably with Steve Bannon. Yeah. That's what it looks like what's happening again. It's not exactly known. So it looks like. Yeah. Roger stone was working directly with Jerome Corsi as well as communicating with WikiLeaks one on one in communicating with USA for two point, oh in order to sort of coordinate the release of leaked documents with you know, the the the presidential campaign to hurt Hillary Clinton. Now wind all of this became the biggest news story in the country, which it's been for more or less the last two years. Roger suddenly started claiming that he had not in fact had direct contact with WikiLeaks or Assange, which of course, multiple times during the election. He had talked about unless radio shows and podcasts talking with WikiLeaks and stuff, but he had not been consistent about this. But he suddenly started lying once the molar investigation kicked up and began claiming that rather than talking directly with WikiLeaks or communicating in colluding like through with jerem Coursey his contact with WikiLeaks. He hadn't been collude pleading with them directly. They just had a friend in common stone claimed that that friend was Randy credit go now. Which again is the exact same thing. He did when he got caught the last time he did something science fiction the way these characters come back around now stone testify to the house intelligence committee in two thousand seventeen that this was the case and the recent indictment handed down by Bob Muller. Makes it clear that this was yet another lie. Stone was charged with witness tampering for telling critical things like stone wallet plead the fifth anything to save the plan. That's Richard Nixon quote by so win. Basically stone lies and says that credit co is his source to WikiLeaks. And he's telling credit co keep this lie going when you get in front of the house intelligence committee and his way to tell him to commit this federal crime is to send him a quote of Nixon telling someone to commit a federal crime that we have one of the things that Nixon got caught doing and his why he got impeached. It's really funny because he also always says history is prologue. Yes. Shakespeare has his prologue prologue. Yeah. And and in the tempest and the. Shakespeare speech when the guy was saying the character was saying that I remember the character. But when he was saying that it was way to excuse murder. This frigging guy like his code words are like so easy to decipher his cO word. And this is literally another guy committing the same time as commit exactly like he's such a dummy. Roger don't use that don't commit crimes through. What's I this is a different jump that? He's made the than the past year. And this is a lot dumber. Yeah. Past he also said things like if you turned over anything to the FBI, you're a fool. He threatened credit coasts service dog Bianca saying he would take that dog away from you. You are a rat. A stool you back stab your friends. Run your mouth, my lawyers are dying to rip you to shreds. I'm so ready. Let's get it on prepared to die, expletive. Now. It's worth noting that when questioned about this by mother Jones. Roger stone's stated that his words are being taken out of context. And we need said. Prepare to die motherfucker. He'd meant that credit. Co was dealing with cancer. So I should say. They should just really bad lies. She says, and it's even worse. Oh, I don't mean. I'm going to kill him. I mean, you guys and I'm going to remind him of that. Yes. I'm a prick. But I'll take his dug a he's Roger it's so funny too. Because at first I went, okay. This guy doesn't even like animals, he's he's a dick. And then the very next week when the FBI raided his home, he's likely upset my wife the upset by dogs. He's barely dot above that, you know. You know, a lot of people are he didn't say I'll kill your dog. So maybe he's threatening to duck demand service animal fair. Now like, you don't want different. Now is the old campaign was ally. By any means necessary. I'll do whatever I need to do to have this side of the country win. Now, he's like I don't care if it's another country. Yeah. That once as long as I don't get in trouble on his I don't get in trouble. So before it was like, I'll have the conservative side versus the liberal side. Now, it's like all have an enemy of the nation. Yeah. Skies. He's gone from from corrupt person to a traitor. Yeah. And and to a traitor who like in the months leading up to this on Infowars would regularly urge President Trump to essentially assume dictatorial powers and shut down the FBI investigation and stuff, and it's like that's a line. Roger that reassures the question for a lot of people are like for an outside of Trump really knows how to play the game Trump doesn't know how to play the game. He just. Knows how to find shady people in sunny places who know how to play the game he knows when to listen. And when you're in real estate, nobody cares because everyone in the real estate business is a criminal. And it's fine. We're fine with that. For some reason, not my milk, Long Beach, Susie. Thanks, susie. Sorry for John a mustache on your memo notepad that I got for free. She strangling a dog right now. Oh real estate agents hit us up on Twitter estate agents. Tell us about your favorite crimes that you've committed your all Nazis role, Nazis all real estate agent Nazis. Is the stance of this podcast? Now enough of the claims Roger stone made before congress were proven false that he has been charged with at least five counts of making false statements during his testimony. This is in fact, other than witness tampering like this. That's all of the indictment. So far have been like you lied, and you threaten to somebody who's going up like a federal witness, which you can't do. Now, it appears that the main downfall for Roger stone that got him busted by the FBI was his unjustified trust in the program. What's app, here's a quote from ours. Tamika it's vote. He believed that what's app, which he used as a secure phone line in for messaging would protect us communications from the ISO investigators for getting the people he was talking to could just show the messages to molars team at a grand jury. He also left an Email trail of his alleged misdeeds seemingly spanning a mile wide after WikiLeaks released Email stolen from the Democratic National Committee and July twenty second two thousand sixteen quote, a senior Trump campaign official was directed. The context own about any additional releases in what? Damaging information WikiLeaks had regarding the Clinton campaign, the titans states in return stone reached out to multiple associates in attempt to communicate with WikiLeaks and Julian Assange and obtained further Clinton related emails on July twenty fifth two thousand sixteen Stony mailed Coursey the subject line was get to Julian Assange. The message read get to Julian Assange and Ecuadorian embassy in London and get the pending WikiLeaks emails. They deal with foundation allegedly really jed don't leave text evidence of your crimes. Yeah. Everywhere. Roger glad he did. And then threaten the people who you've have an equal copy of all of the evidence of your crimes don't do that. You know now as a kid once I killed a cockroach, and I left his body there for the other cockroaches to see. Yeah. And that's what I want him to be. Yeah. I want him to be that cockroach I want him to be a cautionary tale Gladis getting caught. I want him and Manafort, I want a lot of cockroaches strung up on a lot of wall. Because I'm worried about the what they're inspiring. You know what I mean? That's they've gotta get. And that's why whenever people it's the. Same reason like whenever people like some ninety six year old Nazi gets found out in. They're like trying to extradite Embiid. Germany and people like, well, he's ninety six. No take him to court. Yeah. Let him die on a plane mcevers. Make it miserable. Make everyone else. No. This is what happens when you do crimes. We'll get you eventually. Yeah. Yeah. Now, this is the point at which I think we finally get an answer to the running question for this whole episode is Roger stone, actually, a political mastermind evil genius. Or did he just associate himself with a successful people and do a good job of hyping up. His BS contributions his behavior in two thousand eighteen was definitely the behavior. Cornered man growing increasingly panicked about coming legal smack downs. His appearances on Infowars grew more common. He would regularly attack the Mueller investigation as being part of the deep state cabal frequently begged President Trump to make use of extreme executive powers to fire rod Rosenstein and shut the whole thing down. It also seems to me at least that stones rhetoric grew more Pakalitha is the noose tightened. Here's a clip from him in late two thousand eighteen you will have a spasm of violence in this country and insurrection like you never say, you know, question, you think he'd be page like the country are heavily armed, my friend. Yes. Absolutely. The this is not nineteen seventy four. They. Be the people will not stand for impeachment of politician who votes for it would be endangering their own life. There will be violence on both sides. Yeah. Threatening people. He's threatening an apocalyptic civil war, and sink any politician who voted. Yeah. For it would have their lives threaten. Yeah. It's he's sending those are dog whistle messages threats threat. It's not even a fucking pig's ear throwing right at like a bunch of I dunno to finish that analogy. But you get my point. Most of stones media appearances over the last year seemed to have been a way for him to advertise. His go fund me legal defense fund. This fund has raised so far about seventy eight thousand dollars in the month. It's been up Michael Caputo, a former Trump campaign adviser infringe of Roger stone actually started the campaign. He claims that stone has lost everything in the ongoing legal battle. Politico noted that the month before stone posted an Instagram picture of himself on a beach smoking a cigar and wearing designer sunglasses. So probably a ally like everything else registered whatever said one group at least has stuck with Roger stone in the wake of his indictment arrest. The proud boys. Stone started using them as his personal security for events in two thousand seventeen and eventually went through what they call their first degree initiation. He just go to my was the day to do this and their whole initiation is around like claiming the like, I'm not going to apologize for creating the world as a western man. I don't know. I don't think it's a coincidence that he picked Cinco two mile. I think there is anything they can do to be bit more racist. It's really even even the idea of a white Ray. Says ally. Yeah, there is no white race. It was a construct. No, no such thing hanging out with the Russian hanging with an Irishman. It's not the same thing in the in. The proud boys are a little smarter than the white race. They Clinton western civilization. That's their all. Because then you don't have to be white, but you can still essentially snooze welcome to the MRI then embrace your Middle Eastern side because that's what Iran is Iran is supposed to be the birthplace of the real white people. That's why it sounds like area. It's iran. Yeah. So so get your white loafers out. And you're Capri one hundreds. Yeah. And start calling people my friend, if you really want to be the origin of white, comment and way, better cooking, lamb way better. Cooking cannot cook a damn land in this country to save our lives. It's just it's it's all a trick. It's winter powerful white man tells a poor white man that he's just like him. It's hypnotize ING, but that's exactly Roger stone talks about as a young, man. Like, I'm going to be the bridge between working class white people in rich white people that makes that's exactly what he's always been about. Yeah. Yeah. So of course, he would like the proud boys. One prominent proud boy is currently selling Roger stone. Did nothing wrong t-shirts when he was arraigned last Monday. Several proud boys provided an escort enchanted their vocal support of the man, we haven't talked much about Roger stone's style obsession in this podcast. I just it. It's not really funny. Like, I read a bunch of what he wrote. It's just like pretentious stuff people who care about suits and whatnot. Which if that's your thing. That's fine. Everybody's gotta have a thing. But there is a way in which that became a source of some shot and Freud for me starting I think in the nineteen ninety stone became increasingly enamored with ostentatious outfits generally dressing, like someone who lives to fight Batman. He became the daily caller's men's style. Correspondent and also writes ten best and worst dressed list every year and most of these columns stones header image is a picture of himself dressed as wielding a gun like JAMES BOND. He clearly views himself as a slick bad as political operator in wants others to see him that way to that reputation has been punctured by a long series of dumb mistakes, many of them in his appearances on Infowars. Mistakes, claiming exiled Chinese businessmen. Whoa. When we had been convicted of financial crimes donated illegally to Hillary Clinton. Steve bannon. None of this was true stone and Infowars were sued for one hundred million dollars and last year. Roger stone was forced to make an on air public apology for having failed to do proper research. He's almost seventy. Yeah. That's what I keep reminding myself the way he behaves. Yeah. He's a grandfather. He is a grandfather he's almost seventy and this is how he acts. This is how he behaves. This is the philosophy. He has that. He's a a spy in a bad ass and use all this tough guy language, and really he's the one who sees himself naked and weak and his bones getting softer and has muscles starting to sag. He can't beat time. No, nobody can nobody can make me. So well. Owlry? Patrick stewart. Other than Patrick's what nobody can have your. He's really nailed time eight maybe a greater motivator. But love makes your skin look better when you had older. Yeah. Oh, man. He looked so good. He looks great. Yeah. Yeah. Now, despite all of Roger stone's claims to being a sly, bad ass, brilliant, Nick Sonian, style political operator. Roger stone has proven to just be bad criminal who got lucky for awhile. He's not a bad ass. He's just bad in the wake of his indictment. Roger stone has whined incessantly about having roughly as much force used against him in his apprehension as a small time pot dealer in Texas stone complain that he wasn't called ahead of time to give him a chance to dress up. And look his best for his the cameras. Instead, he was photographed in a simple blue polo shirt when he was released later that day he had to give his press conference looking like a normal elderly man and not the penguin from. It is a moment of great shot and Freud for me, and we are going to in the episode by playing the clip of his press conference love it and arrested defined shoddy Reuter what's taking pleasure in the misfortune of others German high. It's a great word. I didn't. Eric. Well. I have always said the only thing worse. Is not getting talk to. Ten year position the charges today relate and low way to rushing collusion WikiLeaks elaboration or any other illegal lack in connection with the twenty sixty campaign. I am falsely accused of making false statements during my testimony house committee. That is incorrect any. Era. I made in my testimony would be immaterial and without intent. I far, right. I wanted to. Yeah. It's it feels good right? Feels good. It's like for your soul. So it makes me believe in God. And Santa Claus lock him up. Locked him up sounds. Oh, it's so nice. It's like a pizza after smoking weed. Yeah. So satisfying. I'm not normally a big fan of chanting as part of a crowd. In a fun of crowd chant as part of and believe me as an Arab in America. The only time I like people chanted USA USA USA is during the Olympics. Yeah. Outside of that go into lock him up at Roger stone, man. Oh, it's so good emotional bubble wrap is also pleased that eat it all does a letdown. Give me the bread to suck up the saw. Yeah. Yeah. That tastes good tastes good. At the end of this this gross tail. So didn't fries shot and Freud shot in Freud idea? Taking pleasure in the misfortune of others that great German work. Great word. Yeah. They're they're really great at making single words for things. Although this is like the joy of seeing Justice. Yeah, there's a little bit. Like this justified beginning of it anyway. Yeah. It's the start of process of Justice that hopefully leads him dying in a cell. Yeah. I'm a big believer in rehabilitation. But if you're seventy and doing the shit Roger stone's been doing for the last couple of years. I couldn't agree more probably not gonna get rehab. I agree not allowed in society anymore seemingly Paul Manafort. You know, if you're if you're crime. Is selling drugs or even beating someone even even accidentally killing an individual even killing someone in in the in the throes of a sudden rage. I believe in some sort of like rehabilitation for you. But if you're crime is conspiring to thwart the liberty of millions of people around the world. I don't believe in rehabilitating that hundred percent agree. Yeah. Hundred percent. It's a it's a crazy thing to see someone who can that. Like, you know, I I came from a dad that was abusive, and he had PTSD from war, and I had a drinking problem and everything against him. But I could always look back and say, I understand the dynamics of abuse. I understand that he was abused to. Yeah. And then the guy that bidding was like a vampire and I had to go to therapy. So it could be like one of the vampires. Twilight like there was a shirt there was a 'cause there was an origin. And that's why you're great at baseball. Yeah. Exactly. But with him you just look at this. And I still at the end of it, even if their satisfaction. I just go why it's a sad story. Yeah. Is it usually is with these guys? Yeah. Yeah. And there's really like it's a man who I don't think ever had anything at the center of himself that he was proud of. So he was proud of his ability to do things for other people here admired, whether an I I people who didn't know him like when he's he's lying about Nixon that can get you know, his class devote for JFK. And then he gradually gets like the first one of these guys that he works for that. He gets anywhere close to Richard Nixon. He just loves the rest of his life because Nixon spent time with him like he wasn't a part of Nixon staff, they like hung out together and stuff. And so I really do you. See he doesn't say a lot about it other than like fawning praise for Nixon, but you see pictures of Nixon and Roger stone, and he very much has that doting son look and hundred percent and. Even his office is like a shrine shrine, Richard Nixon mixing, it's so crazy isn't even be one thing. Like a guy like LBJ who like killed a lot of people in Vietnam. But you could also be like well, but then there's the Civil Rights Act, and I can see how someone could like even with this guy's really problematic legacy. I could see how someone who worked for him could be still loyal to that memory Nixon. And and some of the stuff some of the stuff he kept was like Neg anti Nixon stuff that shows. He just doesn't care about. He just. Way. Knicks lawns attention about. Yeah. Yeah. Just wants attention because it can his parents were never right. Exactly. There's always a thin line in the show between trying to give it a tailed history of these people psychoanalyzing can't avoid it entirely though. When you read quotes like how Roger describes his childhood, and then just see what is adult life is. I mean is life couldn't have been easy? He was a child with doll hair. Yeah. That is that is a child bodybuilder with the Nixon tash body. This. Imagine a shrunk version of him. That's it. He's always been that. He was always had that tattoo you. I was back even we was breastfeeding. You know, one of the great forever. Untold stories of history will be the sheer impact and damage that insecure male egos have had in our society on place, where you wouldn't expect it you wouldn't expect Dwight D Eisenhower didn't give off a lot of impulses of being an insecure, man. But then you see what he was doodling when we overthrew Guatemala when he heard that like he'd successfully instituted a coup in this country, and he drew a picture of himself young and swale like muscular next to a battleship flexing. And it's like yet, dude you had some issues that's not normal. I mean, we're our whole lives. We hear how how hard it is for women that they lose their beauty. But we don't talk about fading power. Yeah. You know, I grew up in a really rough neighbor. Nice to be a scary looking guy sleeve tattoos, but I'm a nicer person. And I go to go to therapy. But the one thing I miss is. When I. I walked down the street that people move away from me 'cause you're like your big and must stuff. Yeah. There's something about that is much as I hated who. I was back then I miss that feeling. Yeah. I mean a human pit bull. There's not a lot of training in our society for young men to get used to the fact that they will someday not have the kind of physical power. They this is I mean, I really admired my grandpa former grappa was a really big guy. Six foot five six foot six of mine that and he was he was military most of his life fought in Korea was like a very big very imposing, man. But the last ten or fifteen years of his life was just completely debilitated with Parkinson's didn't really move. But I never got never ever ever of all of the emotions that I saw him. None of them was anger. None of them was like lashing out at people over the fact that I could tell he was frustrated obviously on being able to control his body anymore. And I don't think a guy like Roger stone or guy like Dwight, Eisenhower, whatever I don't think. I don't think they got that at any point then editor. Okay. You're going to be able to control the world around you less as you get older 'cause that's just life. And that's why we have society and civilization. We all work together to take care of each other because we'd get weaker. We need more help, you know. Yeah. They don't get that. That's where libertarians covers dangerous dangerous language in our society. This a friend of mine reminded me the other night, like boys don't cry is at Fraser turns us and amend. The don't talk. It's like women grope with impossible, physical standards. But really men grope with impossible motion ones. Yeah. And when something bad happens a little boy, if he's not able to talk Kenny turn into something evil dark and twisted upside down, the if the alternative, which is admitting like weakness and in pain and a need for help. If that is literally unthinkable because of the society he's been raised in like, yeah. What else does he do? But like get violent. Yeah. Yeah. As like a worldwide problem. I agree. I agree. One hundred percent. I went. College in Sweden. I saw a movie there. It was judge Dredd shit. Yeah. The original the original. Okay. The good I was going to call it. So as class wasn't starting for three weeks. So he went to see dread. And it was rated X. And I was like she learns making porn. So then I wasn't going to watch it. But a bunch of people were going in. I'm like screw I'll go in. I regular movie two weeks later. I see a movie with a Swedish French Swedish movie rated PG does nephews next to us. And I got pulled down his pants and his penises out there, and he's shaking it around. And and I'm in shock kids. Just eating Swedish Swedish fish. Yeah. It's just a pain. It's just a penis, whatever. And then my son goes, I forgot you from America. Yeah. You guys rate your movies by sex? We read or movies by violence. Yeah. And I just felt like a monkey no. And it's. It makes more sense. Yeah. It really does. And there's a lot of. I mean, we could we could we could go down this rabbit hole for forever. So we're well off. I mean, don't apologize because it's it's a subject. That's never not interesting to me. You know, it's the difference between as a little kid. I started shooting guns when I was six or seven my uncle came over, and he taught me how to shoot, and we did some hunting and stuff like that. And I don't think that's unhealthy. But I think playing with guns the way I played with guns as a little kid was unhealthy. I think that's bad for you. I think that like fetishes -ation violence and power and then coming into a world. And I think there's this video games give it to you to where you used to in this one little aspect of your life. This fantasy aspect having all this control. And being able to be the arbiter of who lives in dies and all this stuff, and you go into the real world where you have none of that control because it's the world and there's other people doing their own things. And you can't just be. That's where the all right comes from is that like dichotomy that likes mental disconnec-. I think you're right. I think people masturbate to the alright the way people who don't have sex mastery. Two porn stars. Yeah. They're behaving away in doing things that I can't do. But I wish I can. Yeah. Yeah. It's that's why these guys focus on Nazis, or whatever you just got got rid of all the people. They don't like because all these little kids in their rooms. Just have a bunch of hate for people who won't go away the way their enemies in the game. Well, yeah. And I guess that's why Roger stone embraced the proud boys in the outright so definitively because at the end of the day, he didn't have video games to grow up with. He is that guy. He is that guy wearing fancy suits and calling his suspenders braces. So that he could be better than everybody in control his world more. We brought it back around. It was great background. Your your poet to me you want to plug your bills. Sure, if you're looking for live comedy with a political bent, you could find all my life shows in and around LA and around the country at tamra, Catan dot com. T A M. E R K A T A N, my podcast is they tried to bury us every week. We have a new American origin story from a different immigrant, and I'm tamra cat on all things social media. And you invite me on the twits, the tweet at I bright. Okay. That's may on the on the towards and you can find this podcast on the internet at buying the bastards dot com. You can find us on the social means at bastards pod. You can buy shirt you can buy a Cup. Very cool shirts by thank you, very great shirts. You can buy a scale models of the spaceship from aliens all from t- public dot com. All branded with our don't tell James Cameron, then it's very illegal. But for a limited time until we get a takedown quest. We will be selling all of that stuff. James Cameron has sex in bikinis. Really? Well, Roger stone's said it. Oh, well, then it's got to be true. That's got to be true. Well, let's all lead you guys on that on that absolutely true note from from our buddy Rogers sound. It's the Ron burgundy podcast. It's the Ron burgundy podcast. Guess what? I got up gas. And you don't guess what I got up gas. And you don't Ron burgundy. Podcast. Join me Ron burgundy on the Ron burgundy podcast driven by safe auto, the only car insurance company I'll ever use it takes three minutes. And let's face it. That's about all the time any of us should spend with a car insurance company.

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