I do miss putting a magazine together. I miss working with fog refers on editorial authorities. But i don't feel it's relevant. I don't i don't feel still proper tool to communicate fashion today from ted audio collective. This is designed letters with debbie moment for seventeen years. Debbie millman has been talking with designers and other creative people about what they do how they got to be who they are and what they're thinking about and working on on this episode. Fabien baron talks about his career as an art director and about the decline of fashion magazines. I mean it was all my clients. We don't talk about the page that's going to involve we talk about like instagram post. Hi this is adam grant of taken for granted this year. We worked with our sponsor jobs. Ohio to crowdsourcing thought provoking questions. We're all dealing with as the landscape of work continues to change stay tuned. Listen to my responses to. Sheila and lois who situations might not be so unique. Creative director is a catchall job description in the case of fabien baron. It doesn't catch all that he has done in his lustrous career. He's designed some of the world's biggest and most prestigious publications. He's designed books and perfume bottles and furniture. He shot and directed films. He's created some of the most memorable ad campaigns of the last forty years for clients including calvin klein dior and blend siaka and he's created singular groundbreaking looks for harper's bazaar toga italia and interview vanity fair once called him the most sought after creative director in the world. And indeed he is today. He joins me on zoom from paris france. Fabien baron. Welcome to design matters polls show you have such a lovely voice thank you. Thank you for being the photographer. Glen latchford has insisted that you are the elvis presley of graphic design. Oh my gods and wondering if you know why he stated that no. I don't know i'm sorry. I don t know that he even said no. Glenn quite well from those days the baghdad in operas bizarre and i deem to to work on the magazine into some stories and was one story. Actually that did that. I really liked they did. Was moss going around the city and forty second street and just like taking very report type of pictures. That were like really amazing. That's how glen. Yeah maybe it's the breakthrough groundbreaking part that he was referring to being. Your father. mark barron was a legendary art director. in paris. he worked mainly with two publications. He was the founding art director of the left-wing daily liberation and the sports daily liquid. Is it true that you were a newspaper delivery boy for the not very boy but You know. I've worked on my father. So i was really the go-to guy to do anything. In at the magazine it would be doing at the time. Like photostats which were like you know the the pictures and blow them up different sizes. Didn't okay i used to do that. And they used to do like make any calls like kind of like you know like putting the mechanics of the mechanical part of the magazine pages. You know and i was doing a lot of electro sets. I don't know if you remember that. Still i'd just is just for fun. I used to be really good at it. I used to be really good because you had to pick the size. He couldn't be like at two hundred percent so used to be really good at it could type something like exactly to the links won't in the size of by just guessing so it was fun game knowing that about you now. I could see how that training helped in the creation of some of your typographic constructions. You know there is a sort of puzzling to them and placing them all together in a way that. If i don't think he knew how to do that by hand you wouldn't be able to do it on the computer. Yes actually the first time. I did this kind of graphics i did. It was xerox machine. So a Vogue at the time like everything will have computers or anything so we had to work everything kind of like manually. So i used to take the phones and used as your machine and blow them up on your machine and collage the pc's by cutting them out. Basically you said that your father was super bright super smart and very educated. But i also understand that he was quite hard on you in your early days as a designer in what way i guess he wanted me to learn and learn the proper weber also learned the hard way because he wanted to make sure this is something. I was going to do something. I was going to to love in new like And when it's hard and you still in love that means it sticks right so i guess it was really tough in the way that we will use to work. I was responsible for everything everything every time there was a mistake. It was me even though it was not me so just wanted me to be responsible for everything so it was quite like not very gentle. Let's say i guess at the time you know like it was not like it is now like now. It's you have to be extremely gentle with people and you have to be extremely polite through proper. It was not like that with me. At least i read that your father felt that the objective of graphic design was to get the reader involved with the editorial content of the publication. And you talk about this quite a lot. But at the time you were also reading francine crescents. French vogue and you were enthralled by the photography of helmet. Newton guy bourdin. Did you feel that that was in conflict with what your dad was teaching. you know. actually. I didn't feel i was in conflict. I figures good like a proper balance. I think like is teaching was quite journalistic. It was quite like classic journalism and decem time of felt like having access to magazine like fringe folk. And you know like an all. This dog refers in looking at those visuals. I was really intrigued. How you would create such visuals so it was something that i was really like very like looking after like almost like you know like those magazines when they shopping house because they were like the visuals were exceptional and i really had no idea you would put this type of visuals together. Would create them. I mean the photography part and after like how you would come up with those idea those concepts and everything so it was like really like i was looking at that in extremely intrigued at the same time what was important that the time especially newspapers to past information the proper way and you know like to make sure like the reader woods understand what you're trying to say after a gigantic fight. I understand you left home and his supervision and you moved into your own apartment at that point you stated that he was still your hero and you still looked up to him but it took years before you were both fully reconciled. What did you fight about. I don't remember. I don't remember what the fight was about. But i know that i left that day. I really i don't recall at all. I mean this isn't the case most of the time you don't remember what the fight is about what you remember like did i didn't i did. I definitely left and it was a wide before like not that long either. Because i like tim in the like me. I was quite upset. I was not so happy about it to be honest. It's not a good memory that part but it was time for me to go. I mean some kids live their parents nicely and some don't leave. The parents nicely ultimately said that the relationship with your father gave you a sensitive how to treat people. What do you feel that. He most you in that regard. I think what we re give me a good sense of what this job was about a good sense of being a deep down you have to remain journalist to certain degree in anything into you have to make. It's gotta make sense. It's going to be understood and you've got to be clear. But also i think he gave me a discipline and a work ethic that i don't think i would have gotten if he was not through him. The level of discipline in which i work is quite surprising for some people. I've heard it. I'm very keen and it's a search to perfection to kind of like trying to really find that place which is difficult to find that really. I think perfection is quite good word even though you have understood that you can obtain perfection but you can come close to it but any of these because he can obtain that you continue to search for it but you know like that puts you into a certain category of people that you understand that this becomes life and that you're going to be professional about it a little bit like an athlete. I do anything to make it right. Basically just like an athlete with wake up at four o'clock in the morning if they won't need to train so i'm very similar i. I'm ready to do anything to make this right. So part of why i get result is because of that discipline. I think if i would have the discipline i wouldn't have done that. Many things i would have been is eaten into trying new mediums and i think it stat but also that need that search to perfection. That allowed me to experiment and try new medium quite easily without hesitation. You attended our appliques in paris for a year before dropping out. What made you decide to leave school. At that point. I was wasting my time a new pretty much what i wanted to do and i don't know if i wanted to be in our director because my dad was director in a way to show him that i be a better director the name or if it was because i really knew the calling so i mean that one i still cannot answer really but i knew what i wanted to do. That's for sure. So knowing so clearly what i wanted to do. I didn't want it to west my time so even though at the time that year had very good friends i did was like kind of lovely to be at school and to experiment different places and do different work because like this other kid. The graphics fiji Textile drawing painting modeling to so many different things that you know and that was quite know interesting. I didn't feel. I needed to do it and i needed to work right away. I was already even with my father helping him do certain things so i felt like you know like i'm gonna do this couple of years. I'm going to waste my time and as well go to work and like go at it right away and really learn the real job that i wanna do. You also got your first camera when you were seventeen years old. And you've stated that while art direction is how you make your living photography remains your personal love. Guess what motivated you to become professional creative director versus is becoming a professional photographer at that time in your life. I guess that's my father. My father would have been knocked probably would have said like. I want to be knocked. The think that's what it is. Because you know right now you would tell me. Would you like to be an architect. I would say yes i mean. There's so many things that would like to be like the mediums of anything that touches with art. In general they kind of like all kind of overlap a learned throughout the years and experimenting with different mediums. That actually the most important thing is not you know the medium itself. It's more the point of view that you have. And now you want to express it and mediums are easier to express your point of view than others so the dog was something that i felt really close to myself. Probably because of this franchise will dog refers the keyboard on the new ton that was looking at and actually the first time. I got my camera. The things i was doing is i was going with my sister around keyboard on pitcher. We'd like. I wouldn't make something very similar. And like i would do pitches like that. It was saturated colors and i didn't have a flash so didn't work perfectly but i was experimenting and wanted like i was really intrigued by the imagery size of magazines rather than the journalistic side of magazines so my my training was being vigilantly listed. There was this other side that actually was taught by my dad that was deposed old process of making and that started by taking pitches for myself and then as when along it gets more and more i got involved on the art directing side of making image then. I became the art director. That was good with type in good images so there was a definite conflict because of the photographers in the level of dog a ended up working on letter on for me to also be thuc from right. There was kind of like a conflict of interest to some degree. Like why these guys being on set with us e. seeing everything we do and then he's going to take pictures and maybe he's gonna take features like us so there was that this kind of conflict going on and i wanted to be really respectful of that so i never really involve myself as a photographer in my early years as an auditor is much much later on that i decided okay but maybe i should do a story and that's that was really hard step for me to take why because of what i just told you like the conflict that conflict of interest. I was afraid that photographers would start seeing me as you know. Competition rather than seeing me Someone helping them to find that that was the case. No it was all in my head. I guess so as we saw in the meantime did a lot of personal work. That's why i put myself doing like you know. Landscape photography and start. Doing work of the was not fashion related and it was at the same time. I mean you just happened to be that way. I think it was good because allowed me to experiment. Something else. something that was not fashion. Something that was not related to a model and related to a style. Yeah you've said that when you are confronted with restrictions you sometimes do your best work and so maybe this restriction of not photography dot doing photography and fashion gave you this opportunity to explore something that you wouldn't have otherwise also forced myself into doing to step in repeat meaning like taking your picture and going over and taking the same pitcher pitches in pitcher and kind of trying to look for that perfection of it and to see the difference between each one of them. Salad say that your ocean pictures certainly do that. The certainly do that and the been going on since nineteen eighty three and still catch myself doing some some sometimes in one thousand nine hundred eighty two girl you knew from new york came to visit you in paris and you ended up falling in love you then decided to move with her back to new york so you soldier motorcycle you submit your apartment and with only three hundred dollars in your pocket. You moved to new york. City screw was living was living in new york. Something you'd always hoped to do or was this a spontaneous decision after falling in love the where group in france i mean actually the way most kids my age in france. There were quite americanized in many ways. Like you know. The music was coming from the states and from london. The movies were coming from america. The culture was very much in american culture and anything that was new was coming from there. So i felt i was not not not in in the courtyard with the other kids playing. I felt i was in the courtyard. You know basically are getting the scraps of from courtyard with it. So i'd say no that feeling. Well i thought it was much better to just check it out in the. Us especially new york there was like this aura around it around the new york at that time like in the eighties. That was that was really amazing. I just wanted to go there yeah. I'm a native new yorker. But i didn't move to manhattan until nineteen eighty-three so we know exactly what you're talking about him about a year or so behind you and new york at that point seems to be sort of this mystical magical place aside from your girlfriend you knew. Only one person in new york the great very unique fiene. She's also been on the show. The art director at the time from women's wear daily. How did she help you. did she help you. Sort of get settled in the magazine community What what happened is actually i was freelancing in this magazine in france is fashion magazine in france and very nick via an was asked to come and redesign the magazine and when she came she. Had you know graphic formula and you know right away. I kind of like you know. Attacked her in like you like worked with her really rapidly and tried to showed show masculine next she. She was really impressed. That would understand so quickly what she wanted to do. We got on on the right foot but rapidly. I told her you know like. I really wanna continue. I really wanna come to. Can i come to new york. And so a bugged dirt to come to new york and she basically invited me. I'm chad choice. I was like relentless. Like what a surprise so invited me even though she was about to move to california and she bided me and stead with her. And i've worked boomers where daily. And i was kind of like nintendo aaron instead two months and then i went back to france in the mid time during my time in new york. Made these this girl that you mentioning and a year later. She should up in paris. And that's when. I decided i decided. Oh let's let's go back to new york and check it out. And i wind back and then i just knew her and her partner at the time called him hoped at three hundred dollars. I called him up. And you know very near. Vienna was already in san francisco so she was not part of of this but like e basically organize a meeting for me a couple of people in new york but one of the meetings was actually. Was alex liberman. So which was like a great pitching and i knew we was. I was impressed by he was and i not the meeting. And when when i came seem At the time it was the on the vogue floor yet an officer you know like we met any spoke french right away he said. Let's on pensee hoppy. I knew was why because my english at the time. Let me tell you. What's not that good. So we spoke in french and he was very fond of french. People and very funding my work because up showed in my portfolio at the time. And he said what you wanna do said i would like to be become an automatic would like to inaugurated i'd love to work at conde nast and and he said Well have you heard of. This magazine was starting to magazine. It's cold vanity fair. I like it would be very nice. If you want to meet was the art director and cbs' you guys get along so you send me to. At the time the art director was lloyds. If and i met with him. And we talked and e like me very much and logically at the job. But then i got a phone call from alex. Lieberman said well lloyd's if he's not going to stay with us any longer so divinity fair gig is not going to happen. Don't disappear. I'm going to find you. You've got to stick around here. I'm gonna find you something else in the meantime and then you put me on self magazine. Yeah so i. I graduated college in nineteen eighty three and in nineteen eighty-two vanity fair had been relaunched and i thought it was the most glorious magazine in recent history just the idea that this was a beautiful arts and literary magazine that david. Hockney socks and feet. Were put on the cover of philip. Roth was on the cover. I desperately wanted to work in vanity fair as well and being a very young designer coming from a state school in new york. I knew the chances were very slim. But i set my portfolio into candy as well. This is nineteen eighty-three so the year later. After you and i got a call back from charles church ward who was then the art director. Those does koreans. I didn't meet with trump. Who i met with human resources. The human resource woman did not like me. So i didn't get the job but the idea that the art director at the time thought there was something in my portfolio. Really really bullied me for quite a long time. So it's so funny. How life has its circuitous. Turns one thing. I didn't know about you at all and had no idea fabian. I read that your first job in new york was actually johnson. Johnson working design for their internal magazine. I was shocked. But i also had it. That's true my friend Him hope to get that job to me. He said oh. I heard like giovanni joined to an internal magazine and they need the design. And did you know like the zero for them and it was great was like painting cash. Nice speaking of being paid in cash after looking at your portfolio didn't alexander lieberman love your photography so much that he ended up buying threes dollars worth of photography of the brooklyn bridge during that meeting. Also like you know. They were older work. I've done in france in magazine but there was also like to pictures taken maino myself and some of them in new york and so this brooklyn bridge pitchers and they were doing an article in house and garden on the brooklyn bridge and i think it was for the sentinel or something like that at the time. I don't know exactly. I got to be for that. But i remember like this. Oh you gotta go see rochelle adele. She works at our garden. Let me give her a ring and you got to go to see her and show those pitches. So i went to see rochelle. She was at house and garden and she looked at the pictures and to say. Oh these are lovely. We can we keep them for the bit. Then it took like four or five pitches and then you. I get a phone call from saying like oh actually like the the pictures that they're going to be running a really. Yeah and they paid like three thousand dollars speaking. I couldn't believe so basically. That was my first experience as a photographer working for publication in america. And then when you went to self you also worked with richelieu dell. Is that correct. She also worked for the magazine. She became a little bit. Like a miniature alex lieberman. She was working. I think she had self magazine. I think she was also up at mademoiselle. She was kind of like like alex. Lieberman's right task and she would come in and look over all the pages and then liberman would come in and look at the pages and we have to make sure that everything was well organized like each picture was supposed to be from this side which was very small to a double page side. And then you would play. Was things had a really like my time. Magazine g. q. Working was mayor shanahan's director and matama self magazine really like couldn't wait for these moments. Where would show up and michelle would show up kind of like shuffling everything around some part of it probably just to shovel and part of it to make more sense of the stories to learn so much about like what you can do. It was a story like are you can was editing. Sizing was putting things one when and other. Why would that be better and that to me. Like tidied up so nicely. Was all the things that i learned from my dad about the journalistic side of our. You put something together. So it's complete so it makes sense so there's a logic to it but there's also an artist about it when i was there itself and you know it's not that self was fantastic magazine. That's when i really like said while. I'm really liking this this i can. I was eating it up like there was no tomorrow and i loved it. I loved it. And like when i ll expert. Come you know like some designers will put patriots together was smaller guy in the corner and i would think like. I wonder how lieberman's going to change that. Maybe he's going to do this but he's going to do that. Maybe he's gonna. It was really intriguing to seem calm and change everything around but in education. The boasts intriguing. Part was that every time it was right. It was right people were so you have no idea designers. Were like crying over like the not crying literally like you like so upset that the layouts change and everything i was thinking but he's right and we had arguments argument some of the staff. I remember but much better in makes sense. Now it makes sense the stories better and people get like really like attached to their own work. I guess yeah. What a magnificent thing to be able to witness and to learn and be part of alex g. q. And you mentioned that you worked with our director. Mary shanahan and i read that she. You've said that she helped you clearly. Understand how an image can function. And i'm wondering if we talk a little bit about what that means and what she taught. Well i think she was the one who appeared on top of the i by saying like pushing this idea of the point of view that everything comes down to point of view everything comes down to vision and to a to express that vision in a very simple manner and i think that i learned that from her and she was very a definite about that. I think like really felt like oh complete. The circle here like the understanding of like to pass information the proper way in a practical way for my father and being a journalist understood the artistry and shuffling. And what you can do as an image and now you can say something in this way if you make the image decides on this way if you make the mich this is a little bit like the complete approach to the build up of a magazine but then a learn from mary that oh this is great but what is it. That is inside image. And what is that point of view and now to pass on that information as an art director into the dog refer so that point of view is palatable relevant and on point and that i felt like ooh i can't be an auditor straits and then the left i know i know and then and then lieberman was really pissed so after a year and a half g q betty carter. The former editor of esquire and the newly minted editor of a brand new magazine called new york woman. Invited you to become the founding art director. And i remember when the magazine i came out i actually had a friend who worked there as a copy editor and there was so much excitement about the launch. And i read that. You had many epic battles over the tone of the magazine you wanted to be cool and clean and they wanted it to be warm and cozy which seemed very odd for a new york woman type magazine. How did you manage looking back on it. How would you describe that time. Well well yes. I remember you mentioning that. Yes that's true. Add a couple of Battles with some of the stuff but not was betsy really. Because i think betsy understood at you know like it was late. Eighty s late eighties. S new york. City come on like the time. The city was the coolest was the place was the center of the world. I mean if anything and anything that was happening was happening in new york. So of course. I wanted to best photographers. Of course i wanted you know like the thing to be the coolest thing possible. Yes there was. It was american express was doing the magazine. Show is big. Let's say and but we we went against that. I think ni- yes. We different wanted the magazine to be cool to be like you know quite fashiony. At the time i remember. If that's the first i worked. Peter lindbergh was that new york woman. And that's the first time actually. Peter lindbergh Worked in america and then other talk. I like patrick. Demarchelier work there. Like spiel mccall package you know cast for at the time that were working for forecasts at sani. They were working in europe. More actually european stock strangely enough because also like mr lebron was not up left communist. He had he said he had plans for me. And i didn't want it to wet those plans and it was really upset was really upset and i couldn't use any of the doctors that were working for communist so at to go in europe and get the photographers from europe in the cool ones frame so that was a battle and i was winning that battle and it was really cool like i was bringing like all these newer interesting photographers and the magazine get noticed. The magazine was was stunning. I have waiting to ask you this question for thirty something years. The logo new york woman very long elegant serif face the w in woman was larger than the rest of the letters often in color on the third stroke of the w the sender was cut off. So tell me what the decision was about that. So if you remind you of something i've been obsessing about for god's don't even know what to talk i know your dad okay so here you go see us. See yeah backwards. The last one was there was no tail. I think i was sender every issue so it was intentional. Yeah the local thinking. That was the only letter that was doing that. It was the m. must've got that way to know Let's see as well. I'm looking online. Dec- nope chest. That pesky little leg on w well listen. I have no idea why w end end. The w in new also didn't have it but it was slightly connected to the why sent the center in the new york. Look at it and tell me. Because you're thinking i remember clearly that i didn't like the fact like new york was written that big and that the the name was new york woman was too long and i wanted to make. New york's small inside the woman I wanted die to be the logo. Now it's time for an ad. I created with our sponsor lexus. Kina scott the second. I am a now officially a broadway. Playwright and i'm a hybrid. Art is on an artist. All around keenan is a ted fellow and his play. Thoughts of a colored man will be the first new play to debut. Since broadway's shut down over a year ago. I talked with him about how empathy guides all of his work. But i love and life was drawing and painting. Eventually in my teenage years i stumbled across our form of poetry and then when i got to college i decided to study acting when i started learning the great american plays and you see myself represented. I wanted to create something that me and my peers can unapologetically outselves and that small novel idea. I had ended up turning into thoughts of a color man. Play that's preparing on broadway. I ran an op. Ed that you wrote in american theatre magazine about the motivation behind thoughts of a colored man and you stated this. My ultimate goal was to foster empathy. Because i wanted to be seen. I wanted to help. Create a world in which the lives of black men were as valuable as their white counterparts. Fueled by angst like an architect. I began to piece together. Fragments of poems monologues and thoughts. I had written out poured the first draft of the play that would become thoughts of colored man. Keenan why has empathy been so important to you and to this play in particular. I didn't realize that. I was weaving in the element of empathy and my characters until i started hearing responses from people witnessing my work and i started to realize when people would tell me how much they learnt from seeing these black men in their environment not necessarily attached to discrimination racism but really seeing these men in everyday life and seeing him engaged with each other so very early on. I knew empathy was very important for me in my work. Because i would hope that if anybody read anything from me or sore any of my productions they learnt a little more than they knew before they came in the door so they might look at that young man sitting at a bus. Stop a little different. They might look at that. Grocery store worker a little bit different. They might see that man. That's riding on the train with them. Just a little bit different. So empathy is very important for me. And i think it's very important for us just as human beings. How would you define empathy empathy for me is the understanding and care for something or someone. That's unlike you. How are you able to create empathy in your work. I tried to write from the most authentic in truthful place. That i can in being truthful in my work doesn't mean that my carrots is all my stories are going to be perfect because where we're not perfect human being's right so i don't create my characters to be perfect. I create them all be flawed and in those flaws. That's where we see humanity. What is your advice for. People trying to develop a greater sense of empathy tried to surround yourself in talk to immerse yourself in situations in things that are unlike you. There has to be an effort. Put in to building empathy by taking yourself out of your comfort zone in out of your own personal community wherever that community is. I think once that door opens. It's such a beautiful beautiful thing to be able to open your mind and your spirit to things that's unlike yourself. Lexus also believes that empathy emerges when you focus on people and leads to innovation the lexus. Ls was inspired by humans. An engineer to a higher standard the human standard visit lexus dot com slash l. s. that's l. e. x. u. s. dot com slash l. s. to learn more he mentioned crossing alexandra lieberman and you said that he was very upset that you left. He told you that he had big plans for you. He was crossed that you left but he was really crossed later. Really crossed when you turn down the job to work at american vogue so i guess that he revealed his big plan. Because when i left you was crossed in the but he always said to me that the best way to move up incontinence is to leave the nest to come back. And that's what i told them. When new york woman but referred to lieberman. You told me that the best way to go up and coming us was leaf convinced and come back so maybe i come back and that was that was. My conversation wasn't but in the meantime it really at block me from using any of the photographers which was good support. You know sarah anyway after new york women and while i was doing new york woman because i think that was a year and a half e cold means office any proposed to me to become the director art director of american vogue and irish us. I turned it down. I turned it down because i failed. The magazine was not in the right place. It was not the right moment as in feel like the editor was doing the right job at the time and always felt like you have to work for the right editor. If it's not the right editor is not going to be right. Even though like in the right position get the right title in the right place but if did not good it's not gonna be good and the story and at the time it was bella and i think felt like she was on the last leg and he wanted me there to alpo to redesigned the magazine to give a boost to do something with focus and i felt like wait a minute if i go there and this is not happening. It's not gonna go well and that's it. You know the turned him down and it was quite ballsy of me to do that. Because you know like usually. Don't turn down maddox lieberman and it was a little bit upset. Then a week or so after that i got a phone call and i don't know if it was related through mr lieberman. Not but i got a phone call from france from french vogue the asking me to be the art directors french and i turned it down as well. I felt like. I didn't want to go back to paris giving up on america now because like the going back to france that been like you have to go back. You have to be there. You know like it's not like it is now like you can work from from anywhere on the planet after Yet to be physically present to make something happen and that was really not in the mood from that to be back in paris and work again in paris it was too early was i think like four years or three years after i was in new york and i didn't feel like a had like made in new york ed so i turned it down and you know again was not liking what french will look like and that was not liking was going on with the magazine at the time. For what. Whichever reason did alexandra lieberman think you were crazy. Turning down both french. Vogue and american folk. I didn't discuss it was him. But i remember. Did your friends and family thank you. Yes my friends that worked in the business. Everything you say my god you crazy. You've you stunned down to vokes. That's that's insane you crazy like you should take that first one. You should marican vote. Nevertheless two weeks later three weeks later. I got a phone call from Franck castle sunny was just hired to do that. Invoke and that a took on the spot because franco because if the opportunity with attend because of daddy because exactly because of the editor because francke was someone that was really admiring for what she had done. Lay and pearl louis and she was doing such a good job where it using the same photographers you know. She was using steven. Meisel was using stephen mozelle like she was using. Peter was using. Peter like we were using that we had a felt we had the same vision but things and she was like a a real true in the way she would approach a magazine and to meet that make sense is that part is like oh my god. I can't believe she's calling me. She was the one. I was really liked admiring so it was not difficult for me to say yes. I didn't even think about it. I said yes she said like you know like you come to milan and work. Yes i took the job spot. I didn't even think if it was complicated. It would be just took the job because it made sense was interesting in the whole process is to turn down to votes to get a third one and to get the right one at the moment because he vogue was the right one at the moment because what happened afterwards grass maher got fired from american vote so that would have been my loss fringe will simply happen at fringe will someone. Replies however was the editor at the time and the whole thing collapsed and italian vogue on the contrary was like a huge success and a new thing. So sometimes you you really have to follow you guts and your feelings about something in not impressed by names and by surroundings just because so. I'm glad i made the decision. Did you think that you'd be able to have more impact working with franca at italian. Vote off totally totally. Because i think like she gave me cut deblanc in the way the magazine could look but she gave me carte blanche but everything she was saying was bringing my ears like some like amazing music. Everything she was saying was bright on the money and she really was the one that opened my vision and allowed my vision to express innova very direct way on the page magazine. She really was the first one said. Okay do it. And she was beyond me and she pushed me. She didn't settle off way. And all the people around around inner team like grad noon show. That was the editor in chief at the time for. You know like the editorial part the magazine. Everybody at the magazine. Were thinking the same so you felt part of a team and that was led franca sultani in a way that it was impeccable and move perfect team going forward going with the same goal and all in the same direction and the was paid off. Francke can definitely the most sought after editor in the world for fashion and style and she had way of putting things together. The were unlike anyone else. Those magazines now are really considered collector's items tolan. The magazine sort of became a laboratory for edgy. Experimental photography and design. And you've stated that when you were working with franca is really when you learned about fashion. And i was wondering if you could share what the what was the biggest thing. She taught you remember franca. She would take me around to see all the designers. I would go to the shows with our like you know. She would take me around the discussion. I remember when i did. We did the first issue she said. Okay come with me. And we're going was the magazine to see mr money so but went to mr money. We presented the magazine to haymond. She was talking any tiny and that was understood enough. Little bit of it learned italian afterwards but he was really interesting to be put directly into the people that were making the fashion designers to be really working directly with them and to be part of the fashion system so directly. I think like you know like the way she was working. She was working unison. With all the designers she would like do always stories on them and she was like really like said she was the second year she was like the head of a table and she would like kind of like deal. The cards You know and for designers being Vote was very important. It meant a lot to stock refers. Shoot their story and their clothes. I think was very important at the time It was really meaningful. And she was she was holding the deck of cards and she would play hard and She was really like a good leader in that she was the voice of italian fashion. In many in many ways and to contact with the directly there was all what it meant was all the people that is marketed deters like it it is like you know like the fashion editors it is all the people working for the designers like you would understand the structure and fashion was built it. Was you know like. I remember going to mutual product and having this discussions franca there and mutual talking to franchini. Talion saying like You know i'm thinking. I'm gonna do boomers collection. You know to franca. And she was sleeping bags on the time and like she had taken the the business from from parents. And i remember very clearly the discussion. She had with franco. And i was there and like i remember like ask you know i mean if you ask me i would. Of course you should. Of course you should because we know the french guy that lived in america working italy. He can do anything. Everything's possible also told her. Like yeah you. I think it's great that you do closing. Why now and she was like you know how like you know like that francke was involved in type. Discussion was the desire. So i think she was really like when you see like someone like mitchell product. We had such an influence in the world of fashion. She she had that importance. You know i remember meaning was thought to gabbana. I remember like You know meetings everyone teddy time. It was fantastic. It was fantastic. It was two years but after two years of of being detained. Vogue really difficult for me to go back and forth and to steal deal with my clients had some freedoms clients in in new york. I was like two weeks two weeks there and you not the time i mean it's not like i was flying business or you know like it was not easy. It was very it was much more complicated. You had to be end zone. And like i would be nearly two weeks to get my life there and like you know and but i was also like in new york and it was. It was complicated. It was complicated. And after two years of it i left to pursue other things barron and barron was born in one thousand. Nine hundred ninety. You came back to the united states. Dr was after interview magazine. Yeah so i went back. Basically and my friend glenn. O'brien said all you know the looking for someone at interview magazine and at thaw deterring british was an art form. Would you be interested and job. And you've had a real on again off again relationship with the magazine. She i hired you and nineteen ninety ingrid but she fired you a year or so later because this is what i've read The graphics were dominating the magazine. Yes i guess and then in two thousand. And you returned with glenn o'brien and took on the editorial director role which you had until twenty eighteen. What was that first year and a half. Lake working to reinvigorate andy warhol's magazine while there was a very interesting time in the in the life of the magazine because they dwell just died and increased issue is taking over the magazine and we wanted it to be different. So i don't think meet-and-greet got along really well like in the direction in which the magazine and was supposed to go. We didn't see eye to eye. And that's where. I was like missing franca sunny. I was making missing from franca like for our like distinctive in our like precise now on point she was and like i felt like everything she was saying like with golden. That's okay that's working. That's working when on the other hand. Ingrid's ideas. I didn't feel where applicable for magazines in the same way shedding approach was. Not something. I was understanding. It was not my cup of tea by you know in in a way but still it was interesting because you know like graphically and the way the magazine looked was interesting so i was fine with that but i guess she didn't think it was fine. I guess we didn't get along. I wouldn't fight but did she didn't understand what was about. And i don't think i really appreciated what she was about either. At the time we cut to each other better after she was stealing interview was a bizarre by them. And you know like. I grew to respect her and she grew to respect me as well. We have different point of views. And that's fine and that's why it's important like to go back to the point of view for good magazine. One point of view you cannot have different points of view. That's when the mexican becomes so frenetic and understandable for people and i guess when i interview a day even know like i really liked but it looked like it didn't make sense for what it was for what she wanted to do so i think it was better. We didn't continue together. Was that the first time you've ever been fired. Yeah it was. It was a strange feeling. I was upset at first. But then i'm bones of whatever let grad move on. And that's why right away like you know like i started my company fight like the day left interview started my company because i was doing a lot of freelance anyway so at clients. I was thinking bonnie's volcano advertising. Some many advertising admit all these designers in italy and i was like doing freelance for them and all the other things that felt like. Let me start my company like you know. Maybe i don't wanna work for magazines magazines complicated. They really take everything under you feet. They really like grab all that. They require a tremendous amount of work. And the not that good so like i was really disappointed was magazine is certain way so i said like i'm not going to work for magazine again. I'm going to stop my company. I started my company sinful right away. Which was good and i'd moved on. I moved on to quite rapidly. And you know. I remember going to the shows and singing agreed and i was fine. I know ingred. How are you blah blah. And we didn't all the grandch- you know like i was. I was fine. I'd moved on. And that's when i got the phone call for disposal. Yeah i've to a year after. I left interview. Something like that right before before we get to bizarre. I want to talk to you just a few projects that you did back at the beginning of barron and barron one of your first jobs was with issey miyake. And you designed his first fragrance. And you've said that fragrances of the strangest accounts to work on that. They're the most abstract form of advertising that. There is an wondering if you took a little bit about why you feel that way when other time you know when you say cold. I know that he said love what i was doing at time for. He said it was like really like impressed. In the where. I was putting the magazine together. Instead we gotta find a way to work together. Sure lovely. That be great then. I started my company. Then i get a phone call from him. I said thank you have you. Have you know like we should work together. If you ever done a fragrance bottle. I said no. I never done that but that must be so interesting. I love to do it. I love i love fragrance. i love the i. Look the object by itself is really. It's the item that most people are a lot of people get access to i find it a very democratic. You know like it's one of the first things you can buy from a designer brand. Is the fragrances lipstick or makeup or beauty item nfl. I was really interesting to participate into the vision of a designer and into creating this object that if success fool can become quite called right And generational i mean. I was thinking at the time like chanel number five. Oh my god. What did he do for chanel like. It's unbelievable so i was. I was really really intrigued by the question of the bottle. So you know like you said. Can you come to paris as he sure i can come to. Paris put me on the plane. And i was in paris and basically like we talked and went onto design the ball. Which is one of the most successful and long running designs and fragrances of our time. And you've since designed over forty different bottles for forty different fragrances. And have stated that one of the problems with developing a new fragrance is the name and of jokingly stated that all. That's left her. Name's lake fief memory. Jealousy and pirate actually run out of names. It's it's incredible like to name. A fragrance is interesting gypsies mahbub. Maybe i'm sure but you know what i'm sure that name is is someone owns that every single word in the dictionary is taken its case. Either you go to whomever owns it and buy back or you know you kind of like put words together up tim. Jealousy shades of jealousy shave a jealous. But it's naming is very is. It's a nightmare and i've i've named a few and it's a nightmare it's really it's really naming any names some pharmaceuticals and it's a nightmare like the words taken. Where's we're taking in. You know like that's something visual like you can do something. New can invent a word even though like the car. That's what they do. Best wad some industries. They have to invent words that don't exist that lets easiest way now to create a name is to just make something that has never been uttered a oftentimes though. That's hard because it ends up sounding so far in that nobody really has any attachment to it. Yes and like the you know. The problem with the fragrance is like in needs to strike on an emotional level immediately. So and so. That's the tricky part like any emotion in the dictionary is they can for short fifteen times around fifteen brands. You also have calvin klein lunch. Because i also didn't know at the time that his fragrance had launched to very little fanfare. You helped him relaunch. Ck one and then went on to help shape. Everything for calvin for several decades. Fabian is a treat. You introduced calvin to kate moss. Yes what happened. Was calvin e cold me when i was that operas bizarre and yes we need to do is logo is. I need a logo to put on the back of the jeans. And i wanted to say. Ck can you come up with something and designed that seek it'll and you liked it very much and That's how my relationship started with him and then he started well. Can you look at different colors that logo because if we do in the batman so came up with all ranch of colors and all the whole thing and then he called me something else and then another thing and then all can you look. We are doing jeans campaign and started working on the company. He went gradually but surely in the space of like a six months. I came from not knowing. Calvin klein into almost leaving wisconsin klein. It was an amazing experience. Because this guy. I just think like him. I just love the everything was saying. I know what you know what you know exactly what you're saying. And he was like so unafraid to try things that were not the proper thing to do to do things in a way that were very visible but was an extreme sense of And a very precise way to execute it. He understood media. He understood out to communicate visually a dream. That people wanted hounded kate. Moss fit into that dream because she was quite an unusual model. For that time she was not the fac- would've associated with high fashion. She was short or not short as in the scheme of things but shorter than most models. What happened is we put kept moss In the first issue of operas bizarre. I first issue with lean down the cover but moss opened for story of bizarre. So she was like she was already. I you know like bazaars mascot and then calvin cold me again instead like oh fabian. Like i would love to use venezia parody for my jeans but she turned me down and look at the venice parody and look at look at that picture that he had showed me to see. Was the pitch of vanessa. Party sitting on the grey background. And it kind of like you know. Like crouching down. Who's a pair of jeans and a white shirt. I think she was over t shirt something and she was just like slouch. She and i said wait a minute. Wait a minute. I said okay. Abroad kit moss and the what i did is a toke. It much to come in the room and said i. Can you see like on the floor to that. Pitcher and she sat on the floor in front of calvin klein and calvin can turn to me and it goes like this. I say yet. Yeah see and he hired her and history was made a loved her but also the thing is like kit at the time was like there was something very innocent better but there was something very mischievous about her. There was like everything. She was like a flower explode. I dunno explain it and she was oozing cool but just being there whatever she was doing could see each could like stance could like the where she would move like she was losing cool and cavin went crazy on like in the second put under contract immediately and it was. It was cut and calvin klein moment. She's written about everyone. Thought she should fix her teeth. But you what did people think. We're wrong with her teeth. I don't know. I don't know what's a cut you crazy. I love you teeth like that's part of you. Don't change or beauty is imperfection. A beauty is that she's petite or like Shorter legs a beauty is that she's a little bit that's mine. She's a bit crooked is a bit like you know like izzo imperfection you know this. Most amazing person and our soul is worn own outside. And the you beat that you know. And that's what you see so you you choked you. Definitely sean buyer. She wrote a wonderful wonderful forward to your monograph comrades in being mischievous together which is really love those so you've mentioned harpers bizarre a few times. I remember the day. I got my harper's bazaar your first harper's bazaar welcome to the age of elegance with the a sort of in linda hand. It is one of the most glorious magazine. Relaunches of our time you worked with the legendary editor the great the late great elizabeth tilberis. You and liz completely revived harper's bazaar in doing so created what many believed to be the most beautiful magazine in history. You've said that. Liz tilberis is real. Talent was that she was not scared of talent. This do you find that people in leadership positions are fearful or intimidated by grace great especially in the industry. I would imagine where it's so holding onto. A job is so hard. I think a lot of people in the business see talent as a competition to their point of view i think lease was smart enough to surround self was very very talented people and she would take everybody's point of view and make it. Airport view squish was amazing. And the only thing you wanted to inner all abilities to do anything she would do that was and was lots of love and the only thing you wanted to do is to please. Yeah and to give her what she wanted but she would let you use your talent to achieve that. And that's amazing. She ask you to be someone else. How competitive was harpers bizarre. At the time with the redesign and relaunch a vogue that was happening with our winter was it was war. Was i mean i think like the number of contracts between two occasions and conde nast implications for the photographers the fights. We had to get to the photographers because the understood that you know we needed to stock i. It was really really the most competitive time in magazine making that have existed. And i did enjoy. We give winter run for money out. How did she react to. Linda of being on the cover of harper's bazaar she didn't like it because like the minute operas bizarre was happening. The veto was the veto. Was like impose it was like. This is it this is war and like in the models like the models wouldn't give up so we had to do with what to do everything to do with put stoppers under contract to talk to model but to talk to everyone. You gotta do it very important. We're going to put you on the cover. I will you do it. Like was petrified to go against the nas. We did it and he did it well. The interesting thing about harpers bizarre under your tenure with liz was that it sort of juxtaposed two words that you generally didn't see together. It was elegantly provocative. You were able to be controversial and edgy. But also at the same time very elegant and in in almost formal. In that. I i read that. When if you're matas many don't know if it still is but one of your mother's at the time was to minimize maximally. And i was wondering if you can talk about how you know when something is minimized maximally. Well yes i think deep down. I'm a minimalist and yet you know like fashion like bizarre him about in the grunge years so we're fashion became kind of like more poor and more normal and more like and but then after that that nina glamour cam came about again so well. Fashion is not automatic. It's kind of a maximal thing is not plain and simple. If you see what. I mean like right Even though you have like some shield sanders and people like that like you know that embraced that that profession but in general. It's it's a world that is is not subtle bizarre. We try to stay somewhere. Classic therefore understandable yet. I mean we pushed it quite far in some of the ideas that were kind of like extreme so it was extreme yet it was classic so there was always that balance and elegance was always part of the game that he needed to be absolutely beautiful. Like we felt like you. Could you could package any idea as long even if it was art concept of something difficult to understand if it was packaging beautiful way people would understand it better. It would be closer to them. The be more acceptable. So maybe that's what i call. Minimum maximalism minimized maximally. Liz tilberis very tragically died of cancer. You left shortly thereafter. Because you're so heartbroken glenda bailey took over and it was recently announced that she would be leaving. After many decades a new editor has just been announced. I read that you were in the consideration for the editor in chief position. Is that true too. But i never got it from both so i think it's not at all these different rumors. Go around to be. Honest does not yeah. I figured weeding sort of some of your more recent thoughts which we'll get to about the magazine business at. That didn't seem likely that you'd want to do it. But back to the nineties. One of my other favorite projects that you work done around that time and when that i also own the french version is madonna's sex book steven meisel was photographing the book. And both he and madonna wanted you to direct it and in your twenty nine thousand nine monograph you talk about how one of the objectives was to give it the right kind of quote unquote crazy tabloid elegance You couldn't make it to wild looking without making it look cheap and you if you made it look too crazy the crazy you had to ensure that the crazy was not going to be sort of ridiculous. How crazy was it to work on that job. And what did you think of the ensuing hysteria over. Not a great time fabulous. Great time working with her. She was unbelievable. She was so i mean wishy naked. Most of the time she was thinking yeah most of the time some of the time. She was definitely naked. Yeah i didn't bother me. It didn't bother me at all. I yeah i would think the opposite. I'm right but there was a lot of nudity. Mutiti everywhere did it ever sort of get lurid nano don't think so. I think that you know we kid as a job. Yeah it was like you know was working on the film or something like that. Like i think like when you onset and you have all these people i mean the nudity is not something. That is intriguing sir. Really to be honest. It's a job so you look at it as a job you don't look at. Oh my god. She's naked this. You know we didn't care. We were here to do something and being sad. Like you know doesn't allow other thoughts you know i mean so no didn't bother me one bit there was a lot of robert mapplethorpe influenced sem dsm. There were the yeah. I mean like she. She wanted to cover a little bit of everything they wanted to have that that bid and embiid. She wanted the weirdness. She wanted the underground she wanted to overtly pop culture. She wanted like the all the different aspects of sex. She wanted to cover everything. I mean to be honest. I found was he was treated like a journal. Like a thoughts thought process and visuals. Were like some of them very sophisticated. Some of them very trashy some of them very pop. Some of them very cartoonish. Some of them very hard. Some of them like there was everything in it. It was like a like a collage of all these different visions done and packaged again by. Descend people like dog. Refer nor director and a writer lynn. O'brien myself and stephen mozelle and you know like these different expressions of the subject matter. I mean the ended up being the package was like together in a good way it l. Together nicely yet voice. The whole thing had voice and a point of view and visually really and really and really fund in many ways scandal. Oh find life. I was finally able to get the french copy. That could not get an english copy. I got a french still have. I was so enthralled with that book. Fabian that at that time you know the internet and email and all of that was first taking off user. Names is the name of data as my username. Name is data. I use that name. I just remembered that talking. I was so in the world it really is. It was in his controversial as it was in looking back on it now. It doesn't seem that way but then it was. Every single photograph is beautiful. Every single loaded graph is beautiful in that book. Well stephen mozelle in your monograph published by fading. It's a four hundred plus page stunning exploration of thirty years of your own work and one thing that surprised me in reading. It is your statement that when you were younger you really loved being controversial and you were never afraid and today you find yourself to be more careful and wondering what is behind that change. I would if you see what's going on politically. Don't think you have to be careful. Okay okay. I i'm creative risks or being less maybe politically correct or. I don't think he's a good moment for that. I don't think it's the climate doesn't allow controversy. I think controversy is not read. as controversy. controversy is bred as something extremely offensive in actually can put your carrier down today so you have to really twice about before you said something before you do something or somewhere before you certain visuals you have to think about everything everything is can become you know like a weapon against you so you have to be very careful. I think it's somewhere it's good in many ways it's good and it's necessary in other ways it's less good. It takes up a lot of the critics factor. Does it. i mean is never innocent like when you do something. But there's a certain innocence in in creation that doesn't put automatically things that you say or do in context of political or chief sociology coal environment of a certain time. And i find you know like certain artists. Don't leave in the time yet to get george per the environment in the context in which they work and that could really endanger division. This kind of you know like Restrictions in self restrictions. One one that's to put on themselves to certain degree so being controversial today. Dad no is very ski. There's that and the other reason is i guess you learn. I think you when you're younger you. You want to check the tree. You want to bother the people that older you want to create your own little revolution and then you become wiser and you don't want to treat. You actually want to protect the tree. You want to make sure it's trained properly. You wanna make sure it gets water. You wanna make sure this all the other things you want. You wanna care you know and you want maybe pass along the knowledge that you've amassed three years and you want to pass that along to someone else so you be. Your mental behavior is shifting and changing. So that's the second part of this. Yeah you've stated that the era of the fashion magazine has come to an end. Why do you feel that way. It feels way because you see magazines. I mean like two people. Look at magazines still to people by magazine. Do we feel in the edge of technology and the edge of you know portable phone tablets. You know anything like digital. Do you feel that time of magazine is something relevant for today or is it better to swipe but do you think i think it's about swiping. It's not about turning pages of a magazine to be honest. Do you think that you may turn the page of a book. But do you think of a magazine. I find magazine nut relevant in my in my mind. I don't find them. You know even though. I missed a do miss putting a magazine together. I miss working with thug refers on editorial authorities. But i don't feel it's relevant. I don't i don't feel it's the proper tool to communicate fashion to do. You still subscribe to a lot of magazines. Though which wednesday still subscribe to. Can you share. No no no i. I don't subscribe. No i am for for eighteen years like i just paid for it. And there was a glitch with the with the payment and then it had repaid and then all of a sudden i'd been born. A petit took over from housing garden. So i got the balanced put on vogue. I headed for eighteen years and then it stopped. And i don't miss it is i. I still think about it. And i'll look at it online from time to time but i don't miss it. I don't know if it's because grace coddington left. I don't know but it's just not the same i think it's it's different time I think what we were doing at the time in the nineties that was relevant. It felt like it was something it felt like. It was a connection when dominique browning was editor of housing garden. I the first thing. I would editorial the last magazine for me to go is harper's bazaar is the talent of all this like i think people are just hanging on. The branches like desperately tried to steal hang on the mat. Like i don't know i'm not into it. It's funny like i. I think. I think to do something that that makes it needs to be relevant in needs to be a medium that is relevant. I'm where more intrigued into like. I mean it was all my clients. We don't talk about the page that's going to involve we talk about like instagram. Post to say this And even though i'm not it's a shame that it is instagram post. But it's what it's about so my question put to myself now. It's like. I'm gonna make that instagram post much better than all the other post. I make this relevant only make this work. And i'm gonna make this important and that's what i'm trying to do do you. Intimate as much is different too. It's it's it's a different says it's a different exercise and do enjoy as much. I don't know. I don't even ask myself the question because i think like you learn you know working. I've been working so much you've realized that most of what you do is problem solving problem solving you know that. It is on the page on his screen on the billboard on in a book or like on the as a moving image. It's problem solving. And i became a problem solver. N- baby and i don't think so. I think that you became a problem maker for other people because your work with so much better. And that's what. I think we designers to when you're trying to make an instagram post. That's better than anybody else that has never been done before a europe problem maker for everybody else. That can't well. I don't know about that. But i know that's what i do all day long. You know i'm being put like in front of a problem by client. And i'm trying to resolve the issues that and tried to make the best solution out of it and it's listen. There's nothing wrong with that. I now enjoy that. It's kind of like you know like great math problem. It's also interesting but it's true like the things have shifted. it's not. It's not a bad magazine. Is it about book it. He could still be about the magazine that treated a little bit more. like an object. Something that is less through right. I'm talking about like maybe the bi annual magazines visionary Purple like all this you know. Are you aware of stack magazines. It's a subscription service out of the uk and they curate sending indie magazines. Once a month. Really really really well done. And i love getting them. They're never large circulation magazines. But it's really interesting to see what some people are doing sort. I'll send you a link. It stack magazines. They pick the magazine. You get what they pick. Once a month you get a magazine. Interesting really great. And then you sort of stay on top of the dogs checked to get the subject the yeah the actual magazine and there are some extraordinary made these days. They're small but they're really really good this. I'm sure i'm sure. I mean i think you know. I'm talking about magazine as a large large like the vote. The best that level of magazine like ultimately like you. We love the small independent magazines because they have a voice in nabet point of view. And they have you know something they want to say but at the time to do it with no money and the lead to stop. I run with the ball. And you know they they undermine themselves before you know just to get certain people inside the magazine so it's a little bit of free fall and then on the other hand. The very commercial magazine is the opposite. You have to do exactly what they want as if you were doing. Advertising and you. Voice as a collaborator is is not appreciated. Or like you here to get in the gap you know so It's one of the other i think. I don't think there's any place where you feel like. The collaboration and the point of view from the team inside the magazine is forward. In a way that is you know like meaningful at. I don't know a magazine today. The one magazine. I still really enjoy reading. Both online and in hand is the new yorker. Still think that they're doing well. Those were very smart the way they did it through like a subscriptions they decided like the. It's not a the housing is about like the quality of the product and the and you know foot that quality. You're going to pay certain amount of money to get the magazine and it paid off for them. He's the one magazine that successful. Good in your monograph. You state that while you've devoted most of your life to becoming a good art director. You now want to dedicate the rest of what time you have left to film and photography. Tell me why. Well i think like i said it goes all the way back to my dad. I've learned art direction. Because i think it was an art. Director would have been filmmaker. I would be in film you know so. I realized that all the mediums are very much their own thing. And is you point of view. Mixing was that medium that creates something exceptional that it is magazine building house painting. Sculptors filmmaking thaw goofy. i think it's all the same. I think what what you have to say is important part and out is also important power and the medium in which you communicate this thoughts. It's just that medium. it has its own vocabulary. That's its own language so it's a little bit like you know like let's say magazine is french. Film is english. Sutherland is like learning another language but basically what you have to say is the same you know like most big artists. They just be themselves at the lock to be able to play with different mediums and to pass from one medium to the other from magazines into books into fragrance into furniture and into film has done film for about twenty five years now Lot of commercials started doing commercials. One of my first commercial was for. Joe manny and dan on for calvin klein like i did many many many for calvin klein and on and on and on it just like love film. What you did for among ally. The way was extraordinary. Thank you if you can. I tried to raid a little explanation in anticipation of asking you some questions about it but i. I decided that it might be easier for you to just share with my listeners. What you actually did for montclair and that magnificent film in the icebergs actually. The iceberg thing was was a project that i had made for longtime i went to was part of my see pitchers and i was always always intrigued by ice and i burbs in these amazing landscapes that felt like there were another planet and so i went to greenland once and took my camera and my special technique. When when a do pitches. I do very long exposures and then when i went to very long special sometimes three four minutes and i took my big camera time like it was by ten camera and went slipped it all the way to greenland and realize when a stand on land and the iceberg a moving and i get my pitches back from a trip in greenland and you barely see by was the i you see. The little is moving back but the big things you think that things not moving right but then you get the pitch about a little blur. Your everything is a bit blurry. Oh my god like ns been you know. I love this up out. Kinetic a picture of a nice burke that is not something that looks like an amazing pictures from national geographic. That feels like my picture. And that as that amazingness likes something special and the only thing think about is that you need to lead the whole thing. You need to lead it. A theater stage like you would lead like the street or something because his big eight but there are no electrical outlets in the arctic. Yes so oh. My god that's complicated. That's required big production that the and then you know so years pass by and Ramo calls me like i love. You pitchers love pictures of the c. Is there something you what. What would you do if if i would ask you to do something for me. What would you do. And i go. Oh you know. I know exactly what specially given the warm i would do icebergs. I would go to greenland and should is berg's but that would lead everything at night. And he said okay. Let's do it and basically allowed that dream to hats. Amazing though was the most amazing journey and the most amazing job i was ever ever assigned. I love that job me. The fashion guy being lost in greenland minus twenty degrees you know my camera and my yields strobes like massive stoves that were on boats on other boats and trying to take these bitches of icebergs. Like i wasn't heaven i mean like thank you remove this. It was really extraordinary experience. It was really great. Is there anyone in the fashion of publishing business that you haven't worked for. That could cajole you to work for them. What a to be entirely honest. I think like you know like we were talking about film. We're talking about you. Know what i've learned through the years working magazines. You learn to build a story you learn to make stories you learn how to become a narrator. Then as i worked in film and doing commercial you learn that same spirit of narrative. But you deal visuals. You deal with art direction. You deals air makeup. Do deal with sound you deal with special effects. You deal with collar you deal with movement. You deal with action in deal with so many other layers. I've find the film. The most complete method of expression that to me is relevant for what i want to say that. So i've put to be honest. Most of my friends towards that lately you know and i do a lot of films. I do about twenty different films by year that direct and i'm about to launching into a feature film and like the works with that so this is something that's going to happen and that's what is next for me to be honest that is by had been replaced. Ethnic is going to replace the magazines. It's the same thing but it's just bigger bigger is a bolder and more you know it's in the narratives bigger and like the expression is bigger. And there's like i'm someone was ultimate control in everything i do and what i love about film is that you spend months and months trying to put something together that is in total control. But the minute you say action and the film is rolling you totally las old control and all the magic starts to happen so all these things that you put together really calculating everything disconnect and disconnect cities. That's going to be said you're going to say that word can be like this. The going to be like that. That you say action is an. It's like you'd like the child in front of an image and something's happening in front of you that. Wow it's magic and that i think he's to me is the maximum so like i think that's where i'm going to focus the rest of my life into doing that. And my talk affi work and hopefully exhibits and things like that of my work that have collecting for the past thirty five years doing an exhibit without doing any prince like an archive. That is huge. And that i'm putting together installing printing in like someone start exhibit hassle to thinning. And it really. That's where i wanna go congratulations. It sounds magnificent. So it's great. I'm i'm really happy about that. It took me a long time. Yes it seems to get. That sorta seems to be the way it goes. I i do my last question. Has your father feel about your career. Well my father passed away a couple of years ago about seven years eight years ago and it was very pleased. It was very pleased. Of course we were like yes. I can tell face how happy were very very very very close. And i think like i think for dad you know for someone like him that really fought always life to get where it was and it was in a great place when he died. I think it was very at first threatening. I was threatening and then i think he impressed me and then he really liked you know supported me and very much. Like a totally embraced. What i was doing and was very proud. Yes oh he passed away and and the do to can infuse his work and yours into your four wonderful children. This i do thank you. Thank you thank you so much for making the world. More provocative and elegant place today design matters span on her. It was a pleasure for me. Time you can see more of fabian barons work at barron hyphen baron dot com and in his magnificent monograph baron works nineteen eighty three to twenty and nineteen this seventeen year. We've been podcasting design matters. And i'd like to thank you for listening and remember. We can talk about making a difference. We can make a difference more we can do. Both jeb now men and look forward to talking with you again. Soon design matters is produced for ted audio collective by curtis fox productions and non pandemic times. The show is recorded at the school. The visual arts master and branding program and new york city the first and longest running branding program in the world. The editor in chief of design matters media is zachary pettit and the art. Director is emily.