WKPWP - Thursday Flagship - Keller & Mitchell talk Lana-Lashley wedding and online fallout with historical context, AEW Dynamite (1-2-19)
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It's mobile friendly desktop friendly in two minutes you can be a VIP member. She'll support for us and we'll give you a lot of return including a streamlined. Listening experience on your iphone or android device with the ADS and plugs removed. Go check it out tortured. VIP INFO DOT COM Doc Now the torch and spreaker bring you the Wade Colo- pro wrestling podcast. It's time for the weekly flagship. Talking current events in pro wrestling are was the wedding between Lana and Bobby Lashley a camp classic or the the epitome of everything that displays. How out of touch in counterproductive Vincent Man Booking is today or option C. of your choosing? Yeah I thought it was. I thought it was hotshot booking at and it's kinda wrestling worst that you wouldn't see any other adult really children's programming. It just didn't make doesn't make very much sense and they're just camping their way through it. I don't even like Saturday night. Live thanks but yeah I mean I think that I I think it has that one big issue which is how do you follow. Follow through with us that it gets people. People will watch because they like watching watching car racks and then when the car wreck is over thanks go back to normal. You're not paying attention after that and come back to it or if you do come back I to it if there are several corrects on your ride. The first one's interesting if if not gross you feel bad for watching it much like you do like the Swazi but the next the next three stops road. There's car wrecks by the second or third time. Forget get the fourth time. You're sick of it and it's not very special so that that's with but this was you know got okay. I would say they've got an okay rating. I mean it was a Rosina writings but it wasn't that substantial and frankly their past football this this is the show where you get one and they were they were on that. I thought how executed there were some there. Were parts that maybe laugh and it was way too long and the acting was really terrible bad and then there was one. There's one thing that happened. That was on the air and then on twitter with honor. That just stunned me. I don't know how to actually. Actually I do know how to react to the lake. Let's let's table that I wanNA follow up on something and I'm GonNa get to twitter. Alright I will break in and note that this is the Keller pro wrestling podcast Thursday flagship petition four January. Second Two thousand twenty things so much for joining me today. I'm Keller and my special guest. Co Host is Pro Wrestling Torch senior columnist Bruce Mitchell. I have been talking wrestling with him on podcasts. Since two thousand thousand four and he was also part of my nine hundred ninety s pro wrestling radio show on. KFI discussing the happenings back then. So we've been doing audio for a very long time and it's always fun when he joins me. He is a Here's the deep ball of knowledge about wrestling history and an independent spirit in how he covers wrestling wrestlers promoters and and has a perspective that many torch VIP members have valued again for for fifteen years and going on thirty years now in terms of written columns dating back to the fall of nineteen ninety. So enjoy Soak up the knowledge and we'll continue with our discussion. What kind of history is there of this kind of camp in professional wrestling? Prior to Vincent McMahon or concur to Vince McMahon from in the territorial system like are there examples of good and bad bookers or is this just sort sort of a category that Vince McMahon invented in the sports entertainment wrong. Well it really is. The really wasn't much in the in previous major major league territories like this because their revenue models were all we have to get. We have to get fans wrestling fans to come to the arena this week And pay put their money down for tickets. There weren't other. There weren't any other revenue streams major revenue extremes. I mean there were a few but that was the deal and they got immediate feedback much. Like W W or any any television show. Oh gets reading say got immediate feedback by how the ticket sales were at the major arenas for that week in any promotion the hat and every promotion had you know whatever whatever the size of the promotion they had bill weather arenas that they went to regularly and was up they were happy and everybody paid more money money because everybody got everybody from the owner to the opening match wrestler got got a percentage of the lakes and and so if at the gate was up there's more revenue got more revenue those down it was immediately noticed and and so that so there was no time to waste doing twenty minute skit. Some of our wrestling show or to our memphis televisions wrestling show on a live show. Where ah the hard sell was you need to come to the arena and see these two guys fight like they're gonna five or something important and the promos that uh-huh wrestlers dead? Were very much more focused on the on the opponent not on the general Who for example in WW? WHO's getting to WHO's getting cast as the number one person and and there's a big difference talking about the personal issue are talking about Whatever you know the he'll do in the lying about how they cheated and the baby face fouling to To get revenge and put them on account and so An exciting that's it's worth excitable was an example was the money and television was A high television was a tool not to make money by itself itself the way. WWe Does with their with their cable television contracts. And that's a pretty new thing even now it's it was to was to herd people to the arenas so there wasn't anything like that. I thought a lot Monday night. About and one of the highest rating segments and Monday night war on wrestling. Or maybe the most or maybe the highest rated side. There's some there's different people say different things. But which was the segment on Monday night raw twenty years ago. So this is your life the rock the featured Dirac dwayne Johnson and Mick Foley and Foley being the kind of annoying friend of the the Big Star of the Rock who was trying to impress them and it was about twenty minute long segment at had a had a seven point six I think Rating of at that time the different audiences all that technology has changed and in some more segment. I mean that's the audience on television or more segmented but this was the the biggest writing in history Monday night raw. And what helped Rockin and and Mick Foley do it and a lot of it was it was based on a television show called this. Is Your Life Life. Where the host Ralph Edwards was a show that was kind of came up before I was a kid and and I saw it some There were revivals of letten. Rousseau and I are about the same age so I don't know that I don't know that Rockwood overseen the Foley and so it was the celebrity would come on and then they would show is parents and talk give footage about the celebrities live and the celebrities that no which guests. We're GONNA come on so they might have is football coach or his or his Um high school teacher or something and so on end you would have this. It was a great way lady get celebrity. Come on and celebrate cells and going to television writing and there were some emotion and the reunion sometimes it was pretty corny but for even for that time but this was a chance for the rot show is says fewer and it really was one of the first I times that he had been able to do a long form to show his personality and and it was. I remember I was there. It was immigrants with all their last for a long time. The crowd the live crowd lost interest and it was odd in the sense of you sat. There are while holy introduced introduced local actors from what theater guild or something and they would come out and June very cliche portrayals of the hot schoolteacher or the or the coach coach or an a very cliche bear. Stereotype there an rock would do his Pun Laden sexual harassment. You end up humor humor and went on and on and years later or even at the time. The imports were seniors. He thought it went it. Wooded long thought lost the crowd. He was like it was going to be ready to disaster and Lo and behold when they got the ratings it was it was this huge triumph and there was a sea change in that. There's already skits with EXC Stevo famous. That was a big success of Steve Austin on coming out with a beer chuck and dousing the entire Mcmahon family and evil Mr Romance Cronies on with with with beer on and so you know fit. The wrestling led up to. It was at at at put more heat on the program even more I should say on Steve. Steve Austin versus Mr McMahon and stone. Steve Austin and all that and so this Russa never really understood understood. This are never understood that the goal of rustling booking is it to get the largest audience. Boss will be that's great. That's that's A. That's a sub ball the other goal but the most important goal is to take that audience. And take all those eyeballs and motivate. Take them spend money in some way on the wrestling and It has a lot to do with what he was such a failure in. WCW and your tenure after tenure and and hey and it costs rustling companies millions of dollars. And why this man had to really come him and that he had he had to really keep an eye on him and keep them there. That was kind of a start and And the idea of there's a war going on and then there was a war going on a real writings war between two shows at same time and aws have has turned into the type of war that wrestling had with W W and W W Monday nitro and Monday night. Raw from though W.. Yeah because all in both companies had every star is live show and they're reacting to each other and fighting out You know fifteen minutes segments and then minute by minute Who's winning the writing wars and that that was so bay they really focused on sometimes to the detriment of where the money was coming from? Still which was monthly pay per view for fans but and so when the visit man decided that he was going to have to shows following. WCW One of them was on smackdown and and this Rousseau and his partner they were told you're going to you're going to right smack down to under the auspices of this land and he's GonNa prove everything in the right direction but you're going to literally come up with every week twice as much content and there was nothing said about Anymore money or anymore. I'm you know or anything to make up for that. Make up for that time and there are already working an enormous amount of hours because man lived lived life doing his job and wanted to work and and wanted people that works creative to be around him. It available at least twenty hours a day seven days and so you're and so there was also egos involved. McMahon at publicly in a Cigar magazine but it was a big enough venue. I'm given credit for ratings to himself into his son. Shane and Captaining Russo out of it and Russo was number one assistance. Far As writing. Stuff wasn't did a lot of the writing and and at so he he contacted w WCW which was which was faltering their craters and end and was given carte blanche to to rewrite WCW. Change how they were doing it and his idea was that that wrestling on that people didn't wanNA watch wrestling because everybody knew that wrestling was fake in his worse. And so you had to do something uh-huh so just having wrestlers at stars who got into fights for belts would never would not work anymore more because the cat was out of the bag it was all about it was all about before That the majority of fans were convinced that wrestling was these contests gentleman. And it's a quick baby. You're about to go there bruce. But is a quick sidebar. How was that? Yeah I was and I was about to say as someone who had who had followed watched in and talk to people and been Russia's from the late seventies on my impression always was and I got to be a fan in my teens so I never had that I never had that childish or that childlike deal where I thought the fight was relying so excited or so mad. He'll because I always thought it was performance and and I always thought it was a help that the at the top was Roddy Piper ric flair for example or. Who are the top acts? It was a hell form. It's almost a crime that it wasn't known as well wasn't in the mainstream as well but but they may populars hell I mean there was. It was not in the mainstream of culture as far as far as the media goes but it was a very big deal. As far as roughly pants went in there was a lot and so when I go shows what I noticed was during the match when the heat came on people jumped up and cheer and they couldn't help themselves but there was not the majority of people that just believed everything I saw after crying chair watching a movie that does its job exactly like that and they would call Downer. They'd be okay and there were there were there. Were definitely people who believe everything I saw. And and so that change some but And the amount of motion the the amount of Moshe type of emotion that could be generated that would motivate some want. Want to lose track of where they were and jump into the ring that that was much more evident and and throw things at A particular particular wrestler not because they sucked or because they're trying to get it because the van was trying to get attention But because they were angry at they got so caught caught up in the story that was being told in the rain. They were there and even some of the people that would throw things are do crazy. Things actually saw them if they weren't caught at it day calmed down and and be okay now do examples of their examples of of fans fans Bothering in a security habit of the had outside the arena assist as as bad guy roles cars and all that but what. I'm getting back getting back to Caruso his concept for. WCW was to have an he. Ed Ferrara we're going to be off the air not off the off camera. But you'd hear the voices and they would be the powers that be and you'd actually talk about how wrestling this book and the concept set was also crashed television that you would have to watch every minute of every show because something shocking could happen at any moment and and the rules of storytelling. Were were kind of that of existed in entertainment for Lord Thousands of years. They were kind of loosened up a lot. Because you want to be able to do anything at any time and not understanding that Burns dogs. This is very quickly once they go. Well the shocking thing happened in thirty minutes later doesn't count for anything and there's two other shocking things that happened this not very shocking after walk and so this whole attempt failed but it got a wrestling Tim. The people who weren't around wrestling drew a lot of money. I mean to television people and corn people in some detail in wrestling thought that that was the new way to run wrestling and they weren't they weren't paying attention close enough to to the money in other words if God writing or if it it didn't seem to matter to to some of the bigger companies that used light TNA and and the Jim Carter family or two two people were for wwe. The idea was well. They're paying me and I'm not looking. You got the revenue coming in because of my getting paid off of that. I'm getting the idea is protect your job and move forward and so these companies lost a lot of money and they lost their. They lost their audiences and they went out of this. And and so you know you've who was a major factor and booking or writing that number one rated segment this is your life. The Rock now finds himself position where he's unemployable and and that's a major reason why he didn't learn from what happened after that He just thought I've got the answer. The wrestling companies. These are lucky to have me and rustling companies larger. That wasn't the answer and they were losing money doing doing that kind of thing. I'm rich band. Host of the deep dive with rich Man. A weekly part of the torch daily Cast Lennon pictures search. Pov Torching snapple. PODCAST or your podcast at subscribe every Saturday at six. PM Eastern. I dive in with guests for an hour and anything in the world wrestling or wrestling related. Want to hear about the influence influence of historical figures. Like big LAD. We got you WanNa hear about how crazy marine movies got. We are on it. No topic is too big or too small so if you want to dive in with US Colin live or listen on demand and see the entire. POW TOWARDS DAILY CAST SCHEDULE AT PW TOWARDS DAILY CASPER DOT COM and so But but WWE and WCW. and W on a lot of places. Lauren weddings that. If you had a story on with a wedding that would get a big rating and particularly on just that the tradition of craziness at the wedding so the weddings never really came. It came off With exception of randy savage in this Elizabeth's worked wet. That was one where where the story of true we love. You know prevailed and usually it was. It was a bad idea for whatever careless. Were to get married in storyline and then And we get interrupted or they decay awesome Libya five. And all that. And you can't go back to the days of the territories To see isolated examples of real life weddings headings in the ring and there was there was a wrestler in Hawaii got married in front of a sell out house and it was one of the gentleman. Jim Haiti up elite on your own but it was just died a few years ago but he was as a major star in the Hawaiian promotion for years and years and stayed married to his wife. He'd married younger beauty and there was not any kind of wrangled came out of it. It was just people want to see it and they were there and of course early inside is made of that before the Russo days but in the eighties ladies and NBC had a wedding with one of the veteran and he was getting married. Paul Paul Butcher from Sean was w at the time Got Married on the on a Saturday night's main of that and whether the wedding was real time and it was just used as a chance for Bobby Heenan and Jesse Ventura to act up into for the heels to act up and to have an entertaining kind of mid card segment on Saturday. Nice made of that. which wasn't used? I mean which wasn't used to drive people to arenas on it was used. It was the first wrestling shows and it. It was once a month in our in the time. Slot Saturday night live was to give the live show. Saturday night live nearby worked on it. That was a big ratings. Hit a week off for that month and just to rest up and said they would do so they would do so so. NBC would do Saturday night's main of that and they would actually use on the main event wrestlers in the main them. So Nice made of that. At but the those the main event said already been used up at the arenas in other words if Bob Morton versus Hulk Hogan they were Hulk Hogan Duggan was the WF champion but they weren't looking to use that match usually and main events and in the arenas to sell that match that was the use. Is that just setup Roddy Piper Hulk Hogan or whoever and they would use programs program senator already been finished. Finished that Hogan had had his title defenses against whoever it was And Paul Orndorff for the word big boss. Osman or or whoever they'd already gone around all the raiders got money out of it and it was. It was a tired match and then put it on national television on NBC. And get one last radi of it and show Hulk Hogan is the hero who won the matches who won the match naked. Little things to to push RENA cells. Anyway go through all that and we spent like the last ten or fifteen years with a lot of really of like absurdities And and things that didn't make sense but they were supposed to be. Oh my God I had to see this right now. And there's all this crash television and I remember the night of this. Is Your Life Rock and the thing that stood out to me. The most was there that when particularly after I heard the writing was what a wasted opportunity it was because you had this huge rating and you had the Rock and you had MC Foley and it didn't There was no. It didn't lead to anything I didn't lead to a match between the two It didn't leave something. It led to a master between the two. It was just there and you very much make the argument that it helps It helped the to see much stars and I would make that argument just seemed like get booed. It would seem like such a wasted opportunity because I to this day. I think that that Azziz television vision in the last year showing new Japan pro wrestling or in the last couple of years or a w on on on TNT or USA showing W. E. programming. You still trying to dry the the front door the promotion more people sample what sample being wrestling fan. And then you want to motivate them to buy Tabassum something now you can motivate them to if they are in the top one percent of wealth in in the world you can motivate them to bring the entire crew to your to your contrary form You can now you demotivate television. That was put them to pay you. Money to Luke reduced content for for years wrestling company puts on various platforms. You can have streaming service that That that you motivate people light new Japan does in of course W. Network does to To spend more money on a on a monthly basis on a regular amount of money and then and they get a watch the platforms at their at their own choosing. And at times that they're they're uh-huh you can sell advertising of course summer sizing and all that but you still using your television to motivate people. Spend money in some way. It's not it's not the end dollar the be all and even with big television contracts. It still is a missed opportunity if it is if all it is is I wash my wrestling and I got enough out of it and that was that was You look I mean watching. It was very much to me. You knew this was going to be a Colorado and maybe that was going to be a disaster. It was gonna be a big picture. Disaster that you'd want to see how it turned doubt and and it did okay right. It did a decent writing but it also as a sad a decent writing in today's context but it's hard to see it's going to going to lead to anything too much of anything dad. Give them credit in this sense. I haven't heard anybody talk about this or be all that I mean when I haven't heard anybody I mean anybody talk like this but it did seem to lead to a match on a mixed tag match later on down the line and yeah and then. Perhaps they've already shown this and had it on television but perhaps like Rousseau Bobby Lashley match but That that at we'll see and then you can get people to watch something and if they watch something ago my head hurts and they still watch it in expecting something good to come out of it and it never calms That's not to get A. I've always like getting a big audience for bad. Content is not the greatest thing in the world that it has a tendency the drive people away from the job. I want to do that again. Or or if you build something up and get people excited and words. It's you know what's happening. In social media they last you with with texts and tweets and all kinds of alerts that they have ways of reaching people people. And then you tune in and you're like Oh that's right this is a reminder why I don't watch that's not good In in in for some people I gave him a chance. I'm not usually fan. Sounded like fun and I didn't have. I didn't have enough on and I'm like I'm not going to give him another chance the next time I hear about something like that because the last time I did like this and there were people on the whole. This is polarizing more people strongly disliked it but a significant number of people in our twitter for whatever that's worth is where something passionately liked it. There weren't a lot in the middle. That's where it was sort of polarizing my takeaway was similar to yours at the beginning of your answer in that. I think that they could they. I'm fine with having fun on a wrestling show. But I don't think having fun on a wrestling show and I'm using that term broadly way I sort of often argue against but so so I'm not against having having fun. Not Everything needs to be focused on building a title match and and you no smart realistic exchange or pro of the top guys. That said if you're GONNA have fun like do a good job with that aspect of it and I thought this succeeded needed in some ways and then really failed in other ways but I think I come to the same conclusion you do. At least I think which is whatever the follow up is can help make what we watched on Monday more defendable even if it wasn't perfectly executed or if every gag they did didn't work and if they certainly should have edited it down I think if in the end they can find a way to parlay Lada and Lashley and rue seven. Maybe live Morgan. Into bigger stars. Both in terms of this segment met on Monday. Turning into a feud with a mistake feud but also where there those reuss seven Lashley Alana and live marginalized or demeaned or damaged because of the fun. They had in the meantime but they can actually split Roussev off into something and fans will have more of a connection more of a bond with him with the character that they built. Same thing with Lana same thing Lashley and I just don't know the answer to that yet. I know Monday wasn't perfect but I whatever imperfections had had. I think are more likely to be forgiven if they have something in. Mind where you go. Okay okay. That was more than what you described a lot of these guitar. which is a rating stunt? That can often just turn people off and then also comedy can be you. Think of the funniest movies the funniest television shows or the funniest comedians that you see and it can be very tightly and the best of Mr tightly planned out and executed and performed here on on in wrestling. And it's only. The place is the only place I really think of this as useless way is sloppily done. It's it doesn't matter we're screwing around round and screwing funny when we'd screw around that it's really entertaining and a lot of times. It's not and the fact is that Comedy seems like screwing around but it's really tightly Tightly created and tightly conceived and and and has what you look at it later really has pieces fit together very well and and tell intricate stories and smart stores. Blakan have ev everything that you had on Monday night. But it's funnier and it has more of an impact and you can continue to tell a story this. This was shoddily Dunham and it seemed like shop and the only wrestling excuse and or like when I hear fun I tell you the best comedy and comedy I think is the hardest and I've said this many times is one of the hardest things to do is really well. L. Fought and look and only looks easy and only look spontaneous. But it's it's not the a lot of the best comedy is intricately done and put together and this was this. They could barely kind of take there. And I you know and then just that Y- you had the overrun in ratings ratings. Move which is which is fine to do particularly. They're doing it now. They're doing it at during it under control and not on every show and trying to you know trying to pick US pretty smart and also leave the places. This is where it will not do it all the time. That's that's fine but we haven't seen a wedding. And W W you count about every nine months with have a wedding skit and Dan. We haven't had one in a long time and this one was so as part of the storyline but also just part of WWe's themes this was so anti people being together anti wet anti little psychoanalysis going on here. It's just sitting there watching. Why would anybody and you're sitting watching? And it's the he'll is way through it. And you're watching body bobby lashes. He'll and he's laughing his way through it and there's no rational reason for him to want to marry this woman and he's already having sex with as not she's awful awful and the whole idea is women are awful at weddings and and this is all just a show for the woman and it's all just and this was you know her in which show you the it or that person as they go through it and the man is standing there laughing because how can you take the seriously and like. That's not the best you know there and lawn is performance was terrible. I thought but she had a lot of lines to read that terrible lines and And then you know then when you got the to the interruptions there were there. Were some little touches. I thought were funny I. I very much appreciated. Lana going over to the big plant and put it back on the on the pedestal. You know several minutes food brawl. I thought that was how she did it. And it was a small thing playing but I thought I got a kick out of that but nothing mattered and it was. When are we going to get to the brawl? And and then you had. I thought which was a lousy way to do comedy lousy way to do this because you can Wasser the the big surprise was telegraphed. From the moment you saw the layout of of the wedding itself. which is the cake was so huge? That obviously body lasts city it was standing in it or sitting sitting there and that was going to happen and at least the cowardly chuck and billy wedding between going to men that the wwe lost their nerve and and didn't go on with being a gay wedding. At least I had the surprise of a great makeup Mary Bischoff and so everybody off being the the the pastor and pulling out the pollyannas makeup reviewing who he was that was was that was a lot of fun that was really well done and it kind of made you forget that you know what we're supposed to be shocking. You know big big moment coming up to two male wrestlers getting married as characters and then they revealed that they they really weren't and they were going to do it and they weren't gay and they were just doing it as a TV rating stone. I forget whatever rationalization. They came up with that. Just you know through through water on the whole thing go over with but and and you know like but but at least like the Eric Bischoff thing reveal was well done. This was this was as you're looking around going. Yeah they're gonNA fight and look there. There's A and we're you know and you're doing a saying the. Wb has you do this. Booking your savvy dude and and and WCW had you do a lot which was you start picking out the all the all the places where where the story line or this is not very realistic for. And there's just a hundred of 'em in this thing is very rarely go to a wedding anymore. Ari By has a leading where they where they pull the old of anyone objects day. There's no there's no reward to that risk if there's a one percent chance that someone's is GonNa object is not going to be the highlight of people about your wedding forever and so people don't do that anymore and they certainly don't do it three or four times you know. Is there everyone else. I mean that's not. It's not like you do that but w did what they did and then I thought it was really exploitive to have live Morgan. Come out out as the the surprise lesbian lover of Lana when we've never seen those two characters before interact it all and exploitive of. Let's bring in another blonde. Who looks like Lana? WHO's hot and you know a Hotlanta and have hot lesbian or as people who remember way back on an easy w days someone namely me wrote a column about how Tommy Dreamer Rimmer didn't seem to have any interest in the gym recapture didn't seem to have any interest in the opposite and was just seem to be interested in getting? I'm taking a masochistic beating from his own us all the time and a couple of weeks later Paul Heyman Book Tommy Dreamer into not just one or a mass But wrestling's first three way romance and he didn't over formulas for the deal at the time it was it was real attention seeking getting And and so I just thought this was. This was like Bobby. Lashley being picked to be honest honest paramour to cheat on her husband with the blonde and the Blige Gentleman And and and as Lashley sad as claimed and said that that he's faced death threats over that and gotten a lot of hate mail Everett Lan. You said that to you had to catch. Is that the only thing you knew that they seem to have in common. They just reveal to you. That moment was they were secretly loves me. They were in the closet lesbian character and we never even seen them. They had nothing to do with each other and and so one of them comes just like even this even. If we're like logic apps it just despondent is killed. So let's say you're having you're you're having a same sex affair with a married woman. Who has left her husband and taken up with and sued didn't for divorce and got all his money really quickly and then is going to May airy someone of the opposite sex and you an in her you and her have had this emotional relationship where you support each other and kept quiet but is meant the difference between you being miserable Israel and being happy and the only time you can come up with to go confront her about it is at the wedding itself? Would you like you know I knew they were getting McNary. And I knew that they knew the Bobby Lashley in and log on or getting married as a viewer and and all the rest new making a secret on the story on on the air. And so why would you wait until until I d most humiliating a inconvenient moment. And why would you wait. Wait a second or third I start from. The Jackson has dislike Because they wanted to have the shock of Oh my God she made the moment of. Oh my she's not talking about Bobby Lashley. She's talking about Lana. They're they're air lesbians and Lana is crying and denied it or not nine. I thought that was really exploitive. Exploitive of of of of of gay people and there's no empathy. There's no nothing there it's just look at these freaks and loose experts. And that's you know Russell Ashley's done that over the years and to not bury great results and mean and it's nasty nasty it's just me and And and so I wanted to come on twitter and lecture people about gay rights and gay issues and people people revealing personal information about themselves when she participated in that I was just like I don't really know I know that that's that's more offensive to me and then I don't even know how to put it into words how bad that is like. Don't don't go out there and and exploit something and that that's real hurts people and then You know it was it was like I mean and then lecture everybody on taking that issue seriously when you had your biggest platform and did the exact opposite. I thought that I mean that's a those are real issues coming out of the closet and reviewing things the people in gender identity and that affects people's lives expects the laws. How's your friends and their family and and is serious stuff and they went out? There made a Montreal that then exploded with no heart and and then sat there and a reaction you know data hate-filled reaction or got a reaction and then and then led to the people that that gave okay that to them as dislike their leaders in some community when they're the exact opposite so anyway aloha torch faithful this is Kelly wells host of PWG talks an xt every Thursday. You can hear me and my gang of idiots. Tom Style from share thoughts from the live tapings and torch recap limbered as well as a rotating cast ask guests cover the matches and events in annex t live on USA network search. BWI torching and apple podcasts. Or your podcast APP to subscribe or or listen on demand and see the entire w torch daily cast schedule at. Pw Torch Daily Pass Dot com cheers. I thought I thought as this went like I said at least these third at least it led to a match and I don't think it's Simoni match. I don't think anything but a mid card match and I think that that that Rousseau's servicemen himself has been helped by this as wife. Lana seems like more of a star. But she's also out there giving performances that that she can't pull off at all and then Bobby Lashley just seems like you know as I talked about Seema guy made a deal with the devil or something where you have the perfect rustling body and the perfect athleticism Ford and then But but to pay for he would as reformer former. He would have chemistry with no other reformers and and no chemistry with the audience. Either so yeah and I I just thought it was not so great. You know it was something that got a decent writing. I don't think that it's GonNa get any pastas afterwards. Something they're going to be some people that I think we do something exciting that you hotshot that's hotshot Hotshot booking and history teaches. There's a That you get that you've done a really good job. Hotshot you know a few and now they announcing next week that lawn is going to appear naked on on a segment on Monday night raw. They'll get a big writing to see her naked and then the next week when no one turns up no one turns up naked. There's kind of a hangover of it. There's like Well it's not exciting or if there's going to be on someone on the wrestling on shows gonNA turn up naked every week. Then people will watch just to see that for a while and then the novelty of even that will wear off. It's it's wrestling has has a and this is why these people are in business but has a history of being able to tell the story of fives tween stars on an ad tell credible stories and maintain those stories choice for years and years and years with changing cast of characters and make assistant money out of it angel and make a lot of money out of it. Where if you if you due Had shouting you have these peaks then you have these vows and this was just this is like another desperation ratings. Move even for people who don't understand the television politics care about that so You know I don't. I don't think the rating eating well maintained next week or grow. I think they'll be a little bit of a drop because there was a little bit of a ratings surge and typically when he talked about well the major football is over with which is the major competition and nothing was going on with the impeachment of president so I looked at the leading as as it wasn't the worst thing I've ever seen in wrestling I didn't think it was good or very effective and I thought it went on too long. But they're a little parts that are entertaining and I have questions about the effect of it and what I mean by that as will Alana Continue. Continue to seem like a a a bigger star or rousseff seem like somebody that fans can get behind. And how do you clean all this up to get something out of it. I think that they can hope for is. I don't know because Bobby Lashley Y- you you continue to tell this kind of shaggy dog story about Lana Anna and her romances. But rousseff to me just seems like he's ready to be out of this and and to be the likable face. That people like to see win. Ed and I'm a you know an incredible I can kick ass and be the character baby-faced closer to the top Lashley. Just seems like like he did when he was when he had long wrestlemainia. Donald trump versus for Vincent man. He seemed like a placeholder. The guy that was playing a part the hold the place until everybody else do the things that you want to see you. I had the hair haircut and all that and and so that I don't think this is a great thing and then I'm hoping that I wouldn't WanNa see hat. I'd want to see us this this type of concept you sparingly so that it's a special occasion when something something like this as they are and not. We've gotta put one of these kind of things on every show every hour or people will never gonNa Watch because wrestling has no real value. You're just professional. Wrestling has no revised get a full people and to watching all the time with the craziest stunts. You can think of and that's really hurt. The wrestling business over the last. What twenty five years I mean? There's there are less wrestling fans in the United States. Then there's ever been maybe there's I've been a little bit of an increase in the last couple of years because of the technical changes and frankly how how Russel's themselves of dedicate themselves to their in ring work but I don't think it's been that much it's hard to even measure and you can measure is your that that there's less of an audience for wrestling than at any time on any time in the history and the history of the business in this in this country country and wrestling companies figuring out ways to stupor. Serve the audience is left and the left being a substantial substantial portion other being willing to spend an enormous amount of money and time to follow their interest. That's never happened before and that that's that's really kept some rustling company's business and kept W. W. E. W. is able to count on a on some big events let's I'm typically wrestlemainia because of that and a large part because of super serving that audience that stays right there but you if this year is that in one of the biggest stories of the year as the wwe no longer makes makes money on houses. And that's that's stuff kind of continues there to some of pro wrestling's best podcasts are the IP exclusive and you can go VIP and find out why we we have been supported by paid subscribers for over thirty years with our exclusive top-shelf content including pro wrestling torch senior columnist. Bruce Mitchell with the Bruce Mitchell audio show I usually host that program although he has a variety of guest hosts with different themes and unmatched historical insight but primarily providing insight and hard hitting analysis opinion on what today's news means. Also the fix with Todd Martin every mid week todd and I sit down for two and a half three three and a half hours with analysis of the latest TV shows and major events from wwe w new Japan and many others plus. We'll keep you up to date on what just happened in the world of anime the May USC Delatour and more. And what's coming up the following weekend. Plus book reviews reviews of documentaries and so much more comprehensive coverage of the worldwide I pro wrestling scene and then the unmatched mailbag segment. This is one of the highlights of the weekend pro wrestling podcast world. I know I sound like I'm exaggerating. But this is grace up with the fixed listeners. Provide fantastic questions and todd delivers. Every week you will learn you will think and you will appreciate professional wrestling on another level when you go go. 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Torch VIP INFO dot com join the ranks with the most well informed and most entertained pro wrestling fans with the best podcast lineup anywhere anywhere go. VIP and get these shows with the ads and plus removed also a huge bonus P W torch VIP INFO DOT COM WBZ. How show because they just closed out twenty nineteen we had a run of how to close two thousand nineteen running? MSG needed title change. They were a staple center Monday night opposite of talk about that title. Change the idea because one of the things. In in years ago in years past when I talked about television being an advertising vehicle to drive fans into the arenas instead instead of showing the most important main of matches on television and then the technology of making people pay extra on their television to see the most most important matches that wasn't available so the idea of the major. The major title changes some of the major angles else and the major things to see. Were not on television and in fact they were denied. Just the television viewers the opportunity to see to see a lot of the name of the is just talk about on the air and they would encourage people if you really want to see. See the United States title changed hands. If you really WANNA see your hero. Ricky steamboat beat ric flair and this hair versus title due to pay for ticket and the ticket is well worth it and bigger and rent. Your hero need you. Because he's GonNa his head shaved and you know he's better than than ric flair that cheater. Who has the United States title and the go put up a steel cage there? Anything could happen so that encouragement that you that you give that crowd energy that you give to the baby face is going to help him to win. And conversely you sitting on your on ten dollars and not coming to the Raina could be the key to the bad guy winning so show up and do that. Motivate and Emma's like rooting for the Vikings in the playoffs They're they're playing against but if there but if they're you know they're playing a game at home and the rain is packed and there's a lot of energy in the crowd and the crowd is really rooting for the Vikings it helps it helps to performance the players. Believe that and they know and that does that mean you. Can you know it's why there's not a fifty fifty split and and Major League sports. There's more of the split follow. There's an advantage the playing at home and a disadvantaged advantaged applying way in front of fans that don't like you and as a motivational advantages and disadvantages and all that and so And as a big part of the market and so you would you would go there and so now with how show with us being so far down this really started. What'd I think around the time in the eighties when tell when there was more wrestling television and there was competition the shit they wanted the show to be more exciting showed more the major events and the major matches on television to keep eyes on specific promotions oceans if it was Jim Crockett promotions instead of the WWF or art midsouth versus World Class Championship wrestling markets. And so they wanted to keep they wanted to cheat. Those is on the on the television and even though the television didn't pay them that much money that they started advertising money and television wrestling has always had big big rights. Even when no one's paying attention to what he are holding their nose looking down on because because because it was there was a sham sport that either. So you have this on Mrs Stuff and so now the idea they got to the point now where you go to and and wrestling was like this from the WWF. During the Hulk Hogan Day Stern Khameini Days that And they and part of that was because they were traveling all over the world and all over North America. Russel's were in these sane travel schedules. And so it didn't lend itself to having good matches the weren't that Mattie Eddie Rustler's sewer like ric flair who want to have the best match in the world and do the traveling and live the life and they and and they lived for that and they had had the motivation for it and in WWF. The top drawing star was Hulk Hogan A and you did what you didn't want to do is have wf. And I've always thought Lasley didn't want to have. I didn't think it made for were show for less value for my money as a ticket buying fan. I didn't buy tickets to number show very often but I was on Nwea. I wanted more action. I WANNA bore. I WANNA wildness. I didn't want Generic wrestling for families and kids and so so the idea on the show show was that you had owen. Hart if you had card heading on the show they weren't going to upstage are Brett harder or anyway the better more action packed wrestlers. We're going to go out and have the best match they could have. They were GONNA go out and make an appearance on because because fans were there to see the stars of television. And you did the last thing you want to do up stage all Cogan and while his massive excited because very popular and he was the ultimate good guy. At that time it's just usually popular and it would be short and it would. It would be fine if everybody else didn't put out very much in the ring and the world's changed a ton since then but part of what happened with Rick steamboat race savage at Wrestlemania three particularly for steam. By was that he and his wife were thinking God. I can put on a performance in the ring and Ann's will start getting in Jim. Jim Crockett promotions and better looking younger and all that and Hulk Hogan and that got hall code is right and that was part. Art of why steamboat was Stevens. Used to being on the top wrestlers in the company and Jim Crockett Promotions and then he found himself himself while being discouraged to have had a top types of matches and then there was only so far he go go go to the second to the top of the Beta faces but there was nothing that he was gonna you know and really he shouldn't have been able to upstage hall coat. The money was in Hulkamania media and a lot of this man. Lauren from having one wrestler being that awful and that much of a draw has been why he so much joy in the last twenty years turn his company into a brand instead of having somebody at the top of it promotion have type of power over him all back and over the over the top business that whole code over his typist allowing them. You know you and I talked about many times over the years that that wrestlers wanting to be on Kodansha Kodansha if there was two shows three shows being run by. WWF on a night if you if you stayed on how can show a dozen shows drew better than the other shows and you probably get paid more. You consistently got paid more money. Whatever the comparatively being on the non hall coat and shot with other top rustlers and so w rousell so anyway the change had been I and now that you go to you go to a house show? That's not on television. Well nothing's going to happen at. How affect anything on television? You get to see the stars of TV live in your Rena. And that's not the that that that now that's not the the draw was the stars on his exciting and then they give you a and they w does a very good job giving you. I'm an almost television. Lock experience when you have two house shows but it's not very Nothing happens. That's to your favorite wrestlers a that. That gets you excited. That really counts in store laws. You don't have to go to the house if you're watching you know if you're keeping up with WWAFL Wfan you. Don't miss anything that important except for just seeing rustlers it live in your rain and and you know if you're subscribing to the w network that ten dollars going to keep you okay to there's always GonNa be you're not it's a special occasion to wrestling shuttle was less and less and less than a special occasion Asian wrestling shows where the rehouse shows. Don't make money they lose money and so the idea is to get that business back because your turn turn your It's not just rustler's it's the travel expense of putting on these shows and then wrestlers do need to wrestle in front of audiences. They keep their particularly if you're having them do it if you're if you're putting on money-making shows fifty two times a year which is not just four times was a year and not fifty two but not just sixty times a year for countless fifty two. There's that you got got to television shows for and actually I should say hundred something That that So so how do you get people excited at one of the ways is On change titles and what I thought and so on drought beat Ramos Stereo for the United States Championship. And that's the Square Garden Arden and I thought that's a good idea but on the other hand you know it it's okay but a mid card tidal changing hands manse and going away from a really pop- wrestler. It was a baby for one of the most popular wrestlers in the company. Ray Mysterious and him getting beaten cleanly or even get beaten at all by a young Villainous wrestler Ostler. Who has helped resod was Alina? I thought that's you know you just WanNa plan to the have ray winner title at a House Show admitted masses regard or popular wrestler. Do something With fans excited about it and I know that people just go for hsieh's and all episodes. I thought that was odd. I just thought and then to start an angle with Radio Horton and blow was say about Heroes in wwe that you know one of the top heroes got over on a villain by faking an injury and then not. Just towns has got face-to-face. I'M GONNA kick your ass faking an injury and playing on his sympathy and then ambushing guy you know unlike an and it worked in the fans pop-fortune and it was one of the better parts of Monday night raw but it was but starting faking an injury at a house show. Wow I got to be the house. Show Randy Orton hurt his leg. Is that all that value added. I got to be how showed were Ramos have always liked lost to that and Johnny got lost the title to then Johnny when you could just as easily do either you know one of the top pocket was a rising star this being pushed in a positive way did something really positive and and the news was title changed hands that way so that was kind of my reaction. This is like it's a good idea and it's you know I think it's a good idea when you uh-huh do it with a with intercontinental title in United States Championship and every once in a while w title in the universal title but Either a couple of years ago with brock La just having brock listener on a house show was a special occasion and he would come and do the least amount that he could do and you might think they changed the title at some point during that now they got back but that you knew that like hey brock listeners. There's on the show and there's no versus side when he did very little. You were disappointed that was and I think that's probably why they stopped doing that. Let's let's shift to you. Talked about reindeer at the house. Show but uh what we're talking about that. What did you think about the execution of that? In the point of it was that worth the time it was spent on or was it. Just Randy Orton. Drama Club time. I thought it was good. I thought it was one of those things on the show. I thought it works and it showed a baby face being resourceful I. I really did like that but I would have wanted to have in the story before that the AJ styles styles and the club were really nasty and deserved. Someone faking an injury to get close to them so they can knock them out or and I don't think we've seen that part of the story very well and you knew the and I served Randy Orton his character. And here's this viper. That will strike Mike at any time and do anything to get to doesn't apologize for being that way. But he's a favorite he's a hero and he's doing it to somebody who deserves it. I just think they should've put a little more heat on. Why deserves it but and on the other hand said? WWe being smart and getting away with something is the the value most celebrate an any value instead of didn't prove that Randy Orton was a better wrestler or or better fighter or tougher or better man in Aj styles because he tricked him and then and laid them out without giving like giving him a fair chance to fight. DIVIDE HIM I. I thought this was a payoff angle. That didn't exist which is AJ avoiding randy for weeks and the only time rain. Aj would finally show up is when he felt randy was hobbled and couldn't fight back then. That's what I'm sorry but I I was just being so villainous observed that too but but running away from them and doing that. Yeah you're right they didn't give you the the it needed a build up of a story and you've I've got three hours on raw and you've got time to tell that story of of Aj's stay away from the Viper and then the -vivor figuring out a way get to them and yeah you're right white as like you got to see the climax without the build up and the build up makes the climate because I don't think people are saying if only randy could get his hands on AJ. Oh I just WANNA see that. Why would that ever happen? Like they're wrestling each other. They're around each other. Aj hasn't of Ben Avoiding him so randy took the fans on this emotionally draining. T T five ten minutes. Oh my God I think Randi's really in the joke is sort on the fans to now. I mean we talked for on site correspondent. He said the fans didn't seem like when Mark Henry did this and did the same thing and and who who else fake thank injury on John was like he was a heel and he screwed the fan to even the offense that was great. You know just they admired how well how well he pulled how well he performed but yeah there is part of that which was and would have been better to set it up where we're at the end. Like you said Said fans knew that the sky was the only way to get get to them and get to him in public and it was and he outsmarted him and he was resources to do it and the fans were in the fans at the end. Were in on it. I like they felt like he was really was really was really justified in pulling such a dirty trick. And they let Iraq Rod as eventful was pretty good. I mean well it gets the original point about Alana the Lana Lashley wedding is are you producing unquote fun entertaining. Television with the punch line or do you have your eye on an end goal and do you put the proper. Do drop drop drop the proper hints or create the circumstance that justifies the punchline or the climax of the scene and I I just don't think that would be I. I don't think they did that with Randy. I don't think a A jury's out to a degree on the wedding situation to me it felt like an I I actually I've asked I haven't heard for any legit tweaked his knee and and that is just not to be a big deal but we're out so they decided to do this. This seems sort of like Randy. Tweet Disney. He's not cleared to wrestle but he could pull off an R.. Ko what do we do. Hey here's an idea and to me if you have that idea okay. Let's not do that this week. I don't know I mean let's build because what you're talking about telling tell giving giving the back story and then building up to the event makes for more satisfying thing and it doesn't cost you any money and in fact I in fact because you're still running shows on Monday not still running live television shows on Monday nights you still are employing those wrestlers and and the the other thing is you got three hours to fill so if you can tell a story that way you filled up some of the time some all this time that you that you I need to fill up as satisfying as that will make the show. More ventilators seem sure. It's like if you if you teach people that paying attention pays as off down wine as it were. I know we'll talk about that later later. In this discussion if you teach them that instead of just everything's everything's got to happen in this half hour and we've got so we get to the next chapter a fast. It's as much more satisfied. You really get a better reading. You'll get a better a better deal with that. So yeah I think that I think that this was you know at. At least you had this kind of robbery and it was an You know in radio cats. Do this ended both of them. You want to me when I'm watching watching the wedding. There's there's the part of the right up front going God. This is terrible material and the terrible at performing with. Aj Styles and Randy Orton. They both performed performed the material really well like they did a good job they did a good job with and they set it up. You know you know. Well when you're in half the time taking the whole thing is he really is this the end of his career and because he's veteran that does happen or is any even even talked about edge and this and all that or is he going to. Is he going to get him. And the camouflaged enough twenty five dot him with the Arcadia you were there but it would have been so much it would have been a bigger than serve the wrestlers so much better serve the fans so much better and they don John would whenever this idea came up instead of. Just this'll kill a segment on this television. Show you can kill several segments and build it up and have it be a much bigger much more satisfied deal than this. I mean I think I think the segment was good but I think it's like a lot of w segments. Even the good was. You won't be thinking about Sunday night. Just me another thing really and they'll show a replay of it in like the move on so fast whatever ever whatever magic. They have the two on the nice raw every Sunday night catch wrestling night in America on. Pw Torch Daily Cast Dot com hosted by me. Pw Torch columnist Greg Parks each week. I'll welcome a CO host from the torch family to discuss discuss the big shows and pro wrestling taking your calls and emails. You can listen. Live most weeks beginning at eight PM Eastern on Sunday nights with a wwe or impacts pay per view we go on the air at the conclusion of that pay per view. You can listen live but of course. The full show is available for download on demand anytime shortly after it airs visit Torch Daily Dot Com click the livestream linked to find the next scheduled live. Show link search. Pw Torch an apple podcasts or your podcast APP to subscribe wrestling night in America every Sunday. Pw Torch daily CAST DOT COM breath. So let's Let's turn the Patriots to eighty w before last night show Talk about the Chris. Jericho Rotana Hashi stipulation for Wrestle Kingdom this weekend where Jirka was said if Donna Hi. She pins him than autonomous. You will get a future. Awa World title match at an unnamed eight it it makes that match the most high stakes match in professional wrestling LONGTEMPS steaks. Very not in a very unique way in a way that really have ever been seen before because at Jericho Beats Tallahassee in this non title match then it's just setting coming up the next match between the two in new CHAMPA wrestling and it really doesn't have anything to do with a w except for their champions in the match but there's no title here but if Tana Hashi Jericho then then he does get a title challenge and then he w championship challenge challenge against Jericho next and that means that the companies are working together. And you look at those two companies and and Japan's decision not to work with anybody in a W has at dozens implications for for both businesses and they both could use it the day. W W W stayed got that that boost by working with raw smackdown lineups and and w could use a boost from working with news. Pamper rustling in some of their talents. I it's it's it's dream matrimonial. Japan could use that new. Japan has just. I'm just just decided not to work with access the access network on the last year of their contract because access told them that they had to work. They had to work with impacted packed. They didn't want anybody telling them that. They are forcing them an outside television network telling them forcing them to work someone they didn't want to. There's a real cultural thing about about loyalty and about working there that that has Kind of you know. Put them in a position where you know do. Japan is law something. They've lost uh-huh they've lost the young and they've lost Mega. And then with the exception of Jon Moxley mega had in his Awa contract right and so did the bucks that they were allowed to work with new Japan but new Japan doesn't want them because of just kind of a cultural issue of loyalty Altea and and that has stood in the way of both companies really do cooperating with each other working together their natural fit because has the history of some of the wrestlers w who have great history in new Japan pro wrestling and have great rivals could pick up and so if if it goes by and Jericho and then things are the same and both could use that boost and they won't get because they're not working the other but if but the stakes are if Takahashi wins then that looks like this was the first step in the two to companies working together and the second step will come to and that's really really big. I mean that's so this match. Not only is that and one of the most experienced top stars in the business either. The Ring Generals Ring General Right now in the business. And that's and he w champion Chris Jericho America. It's also time Hashi who has every bit The entering success and every bit the you know at the long long career as so it's not just can. They put together a match at this point in their careers with the injury problems in the just the aging Eh that they faced its who wins and who loses because we will know something important either way and and so. I think there's going to be more is on this match. And there's going to be a suspense when they get to the when he gets the near falls or however they work out a Finnish between these two and they've kept I I am very good. Live on whether there's something going on here no one seems to no one seems to know except for the first vols involve this match match eighty. W I'm sorry. The excess TV nutrient situation could be tied to something more stemming from this match no I think it was. I think that access access had their own wrassling company and they wanted to help that company. You know they wanted that that. That's now airing on Thursday nights and then went to help that company and they just they didn't look look at everything or new the concept of what they were asking and went and asked him to Japan and do Japan was offended and didn't look at the context attest to what they were getting asked to do. And didn't look at the situation of you just open a market and now you've got no way to hide with it to hype up that market which is North America. So it's I think this is. I think there was there was. There's been aw since the existence of w there's been or even before the excessively w there's been that the principals who he wanted the two companies to work together and the principals who did not want the two companies work together and it's more new Japan deal of not wanting to work back with a W and their and their top wrestlers. Then he w their top Russell and Tony Calm because they all can look at it and go. We're a competitive business and time in a competitive business and could use that boost and you know you can look at New Japan go. New Japan sold out massive square garden with the expectation that the a w stars that had been a new Japan would work that show and it turned out that they didn't but they'd already sold out the garden and then they turned around. Not only could they not sell out the garden. The second time they had to move to a smaller venue and they didn't do anywhere near the type of business there. So New Japan could use some crossover particularly in this market. At a w could use you know this that would be the obvious next boost for aws business particularly Staying where he is the. You know the next. I'm working with a company that has tap that has the best talent in the world. That's the best suited to work with a W. So so you think about the the match ups you can do all all that. I think it some that. You don't see that type of settled a match for it's not be settled settled a match being revealed in a match and the this the finish of Taha She Chris. Jericho will literally in a day. You know so. We're low for US locate or literally Tell whether there's an important exciting new partnership between two companies in the world or not you'll you'll you'll see that ever so so. This is a really unique high high stakes match. The bureau aren't so let's shift last night's Awa dynamite specifically that a couple of weeks off Bruce. This was the week off last week. Two weeks in between shows they started off the new year. Did you notice anything different about the show that would have just fit in. If this just happened it'd be a show in December. Do you think they made any kind of changes. In the way they're presenting the product in any way. Yeah I very much think this show theme. The theme was that they realized is that they have not been pushing the young bucks and Kenny Omega as strongly as they should have and that fell apart on the last show with the dark order thing of having the big star sell for what looked like a much inferior act and it hurt the show so so this show had a theme which was Are All elite alley are facing a challenge proving that they're all lead or are they getting taken can over by Taken over by on the inner circle and by the other other places and so they told that story and they put all lead in places that were they would look strong but they didn't. They didn't do two things. I thought were as that kept this. It's a really strong show. They didn't overreact to in other words they didn't have all come out and just beat everybody they saw and we'll still a real challenge to do it and the other part that I really liked. was they revisited. Dark order and a in a very carefully produced with using music to to hide the lack of reaction a video package but they didn't really make that they didn't just Adler never happened and they did not like it was still a big deal and they put over a mega and they put over the young bucks. I'll throughout about the show. I just thought it was really smart way to do it. A satisfying show to watch and it helped that they had done so much damage. You know sometimes you Z.. WWE or another wrestling promotion. Just really hurt or kill off in a matter of a weaker too. I am an AC back and this happened killed off anybody. So they're able to back up and just correct their course and go on. I thought this was a smart well-done show and they needed needed a solid positive show. And that that's what they gave it and you could tell that they needed it that they knew they needed it but they didn't panic. They adjusted adjusted and I liked that show a lot. I mean I thought I thought that there was like one was in arenas exciting and he was purposeful and and and they talked about during the show. They kind of let you know and away. That didn't sound secure that yeah the last show wasn't that great so we're doing a better thing. There's pressure on the elite which was symbolizing pressure on a W. Two two triumph. And they did. I thought in the you know the story of the main event was Kannada. Make the boxes have not been operating at an elite level in the video at the beginning of the show said you. Oh are they still elite. Can they work together they established. Hey this is a group because frankly the last twelve weeks if you only watch dynamite and every episode but especially especially the Mo- the majority of people aren't watching every single minute of every show. There's a lot of people who watch Donna. Who might not be able to confidently name? Everybody who's in the elite. I mean they. They don't stand in the ring together. I mean they should do this more thinner circle too by the way but they don't stand at the other they don't really do do more with ruin. But I like that I mean I thought and I and I like that there was a purpose of you. Got The sense that all elite were great great wrestlers. Where would you watch what you watch the story? That's around the inner circle. Is it something for Chris. Jericho to hold onto the world championship. Celo about you know. It's everybody has a role and The inner circle and that's helped Chris Jericho where and the elite elite. They're all the best and but now they have. They're not showing they're the best. So are they still the best or have they. I've been over Have they been taken by. It's almost I mean it'd be akin to talking about the New England patriots right now because you They're they're the super bowl champions there the dynasty but Someone else coming over and taking them over there. They've lost a few games James and there's been some situations where they look not as in as in charge nationally. They've got the Chris Jericho of the NFL. Tom Brady the forty two year. Old Wrestler who wrestler forty two year old elite quarterback who may have come to the end up being elite and so so they answered it in the ring you know and and it also it was hard for them to do it. It wasn't just. There was a real struggle which helped everybody and made for more compelling viewing. It didn't look like oh we'll just we'll just hasn't had had them with a bunch of matches and people do a bunch of jobs for for them like they really had to fight for what they got and by the end of it and it didn't look like they were looking to solve the entire problem on one show. It was like okay. This was they won. They won the main event matches hard to do they face challenges during during during the show. And and we're able to struggle and keep their head above water and start moving back to being the the best wrestlers in the world the Best Osler. W What did you think of the story. Now they're telling with hangman page. It's sort of been out there. A lot of the story has I've been told on being the elite or w dark there kind of catching people up who watch dynamite on some of the granular details of the what pages going through deerfield. They're they're better spot a strongly better spot at the end of dynamite from last night and they were going into it as far as that story goes yeah. I hadn't been keeping up with all lately and I wasn't aware of that. Part of the alcohol storyline or whether he's an alcoholic or just bearing himself in Oklahoma Hall now because of not living up to expectations and losing lately. So the only reason I tell the story as tall as all the story is told. And if it's that he's grew up because he's an alcoholic alcoholic. I think we've seen that story told on. And several years ago with Hawk the road warriors in the later part of his career and and on raw. and W and we see. We've seen that a little bit told and it's it's really Scott always very uncomfortable and very very distasteful exploitative and it's doesn't fit a wrestling program it has part of if it's part of his character his whole character and it's not that he's a hopeless alcoholic or something like that. There's a way to I think I think there's a way to tell that story and build with him but I wanna see it. I'm not crazy about. I'm okay with Russ drinking. Like the Steve Steve Austin the most famous beer drinker or the crusher before that the Mustang. This beer drinker and wrestling. They were. They were betrayed as wild minute out loss. Who could who could drake and control it and not not have it affect them in a bad adwa in other words you know? Stuggle Steve Austin was his character never came out to the ring and got sloppy with us. Drinking it cost him or he was or he didn't show we'll show up for work. All things that can happen to you. When dealing alcohol is alcohol is a very complicated issue and alcoholism is to for for practical ways An- and so two like to use it as an entertainment thing? Well you'd better be telling a real a real truth and then it's then looking at hanging page. He's you know as clear to me that they're are building him down the road like a year from now. I think he's GonNa be a stronger. I think the plan is going to be a stronger part of the talent roster and and he's a very strong part of it now but like but books in a higher position as one excuse my expression but it was one of the elite in the in the promotion either as a heel or with via late and so you know even to see footage with a beer. I'm fine with that. See footage of him with a beer and he looks a little weak with it at bakes it may alarm bells go off for me and it was being used that way. Certain ways with the all all league show itself makes bells go off but warning bells. Go off but I don't but I I wanna see but and needs to be handled in a smart adult way where it's not just. Oh my God she's gay. Oh my God. He's is an alcoholic and is pathetic and maybe he'll get his act together because he could be so great because when you're telling an adult adult story like alcohol. Alcoholism can be or the use of alcohol while you're competing as an athlete and it's hurting your performance us Those very complicated real issues that need to be used with Russian and and may not even fit The parameters of professional wrestling competition in other words a wrestler going in the ring and and competing physically to attain a victory by pinfall submission over an opponent and attained other awards through that too. And it's so we'll see. I've liked what I've liked. How pages progressed It's a low key story and they're taking their time with it. But I really have liked like that. I talked about on the lascaux. How much I'll you know how much I liked? No wasn't this. How about knows last show? So how much. I liked. Pock interrupting him and him having problems with a mega but before anything can really push through that they date David. Put It on the they. They didn't give you a solution to or even the next step because because pack wanted a piece as for mega and had something interrupted it and stopped it so that you were like okay now. What is going to happen next week or or what's going to be there and then the interesting to alcohol into the so my my thing is? I'm cautiously apprehensive about it. Like I can see I. I'm allowing doc these booker's And this company it's a different booking team at a different company and they have built up some credibility with with may or some credit in the bank with me. Where if I see something that looks troublesome? I'm GONNA give them a little bit of time at least or the time to you. Show me that. Show the doing something now if the next state the next part of this Story lines distasteful to Probably Not GonNa give them very much a chance that but you know w w invasive man and recreate have have taught me that they approach things in a certain way and they don't get that credit from the and they have proven urban over and over again they don't deserve deserve that money in the bank As as far as trust does these guys have proved Kamei searching for more great pro wrestling. Talk the join me Jason Powell host of the weekly pro wrestling boom podcast. Each week week. You'll hear the latest news and analysis for me and my team pro wrestling dot net along with other wrestling media members plus the pro wrestling boom podcast features long-form interviews with notable names in the pro wrestling industry subscribing to stitcher downcast. And all your favorite second Gary Apps or visit us directly at PW BOOM DOT com once again. THAT'S CEPEDA DOT COM okay. So let's let's shift to the Cody Darby Ellen match to open the show. We got a vignette on Darby Allen. I wish we got a little bit of a back story. Going into the match on the Derby. Cody just to catch everybody. Up a refresh people's memories on the the Ross said at the eleven minutes of the match say these guys fought to a draw time but that said I'm glad they haven't been yet in the codey masks and you know kind of an eerie tone. Also also you had aren't Anderson with cody and I'm not quite sure what the fully why cody had with other than is now the coach of the the the nightmare Family also would have liked a little bit more of an introduction to how that happened and what the strategy. Maybe that plays out over time. But I'd like it a little more effectively but that said Arnold Ringside is. This is this adding to cody's act. Is it a means to an end to have a suspicion to what that might be your thoughts on this. Yeah yeah I thought as the introductory chapter two I'm bringing out Arn Anderson who has a real history tully blanchard does With with the Father Dusty Rhodes with a legendary robberies the four horsemen versus dusty Rhodes and then and then as time time has gone by and there's a M- affection for what he did in the wrestling business. You know in the ring. And then the bill the arms ability to communicate and speak And his time out of the ring and now he's got the podcast and all. Ah He's a he's a baby face type figure in a way that just you know someone who's really proven themselves over the years for knowledgeable wrestling fans have been on TV many many years. But there's w network and there's memory and there's even all that And I looked at this and I thought Great Arms GonNa come out and talk with cody about what exactly this is. And he didn't do that. And so the first appearance if it smart booking the the first of what happened without having talk just haven't come out you see that there's a connection that there's a positive thing there a raises in your mind is aren't gonNA turn on him immediately because we seen wrestling. That had no patience. A lot of rustling didn't have any patients than would immediately do that Establish a team and then have them turn on each other. You know you because that's more shocking. There's like if you put it together. Make it work faster and Ah Somehow people can't turn away from it. It's not just do one thing. And then there's times when there's times when you remove storylines faster or slower In anything and so anyway I was like Oh my God. There's no you know Promo and I wanted to hear it aren't talk aren't did the Promo Taj four point which has been a committed kind of point four Daniel Tosh on comedy central to us over the years Pretend like he's in a feud with Arn Anderson who's not on television and he just remembers aren't comes out a week or so ago and cut a Promo on facebook. That's a better promo than anybody's caught cut wrestling. And I don't know how long on in like years on just this does this. Great compelling no comedy Promo about you know. Russell are being challenged by punk Atar entertainer and and just like. Oh my God. So we're going to see on innocent promos again. And it was every bit as good as on promoing in his in his heyday day and and talking about his heyday as a promo is not w w WCW during the Monday night war it's And it's at the end of its last couple of years that he was an In Jim Crockett promotions. And then any of the time. He was in in Jim Crockett promotions plus any time. He was in southeastern championship wrestling. He was an a tap chromebook and and I got a a live interview with them and wants to Salem one of the things I want to ask him about that. I hadn't seen him talk about I didn't he. Hadn't talked about on the podcast August yet was there's always thought that there is a link between Arn Anderson as best and Promo with real horsemen and Stone Cold Steve Austin style stone uncool. Steve Austin and aren't talked about that saying that Austin call them up and like when he was when he was working out the stone cold promo style while he was watching Anderson Promise. An hour's thought that Anderson in an a little bit different world circus has been a little a bit better With Jim Crockett promotions. And he hadn't had to move to You know moved through the wwe and back and everything that happened that if if he had a chance to be a character baby face at the time he was cutting promos he could have ended up one of the top. They've faces in the entire business. And that Steve Austin was very much influenced by him with this promised. How and Steve Austin ended up the the most revenue producing a character? Baby facing the history of the business and So anyway so I was just like. Where's the Promo? But if it's a good patient booking strategy than we do get Arn Anderson Anderson and cody talking about why they're together and you'd have to acknowledge the rivalry with the Anderson family and the family and the road and roads and and you'd also have to acknowledge I think on the air. Cody Rhodes is big influences. And as as as far as what type of wrestler and wrestling star. He wants to be obviously. Is You know obviously number. One is dusty dusty Rhodes and his and his barry at the top of his game was one of the very top baby faces in the entire business in and top baby faces ever and the other guy the the other guy really influences cody is ric flair and so acknowledging that and and in putting that together if they do it in a smart way. There's always that possibility of aren't pulling the plug pulling the rug out. From under cody interesting ways or him and before you do that if you ever do it him. You know him backing cody's play plus. It's the nightmare family. So that means. There's a history between the brother and Anderson between dusted and Arn I Andersen in the ring on Anderson was was very much a part of getting the natural dusty. Dustin Rhodes up and running thing as a wrestler when father came back to book in WCW and Was Not allowed to be in the rain anymore by. WCW and and then They've had their situations together. Aren't Anderson layers of Bisco versus Dustin Rhodes and and Ricky steamboat or stone. Cold Steve Austin involved in and and some of those monster stunning Steve Austin involved us on this night. So there's history history there so I think there's a real entering their if we never see Arn Anderson. Cut a promo with cody. That's ridiculous if I don't I believe that's there but if we but if we do and There's a lot of different places you can go with us to me. When you're looking looking at booking is like whatever happens did it happen and then our there's places to go that mean money for wrestling and 'cause intrigue for fans cycle when we were talking about the Lana Bobby Lashley wedding? That was a big question of. It's like okay. You had this big farce number one to the big farce work as far as what you're looking for that night and then number two. Where do you go from there and That's that's a whole wotton larger question of where do you go. Positively for that wedding then. It is then the possibilities of Arn Anderson returning back back to wrestling with this probability and with bill and with his knowledge of professional wrestling and his connection to the mainstream especial wrestling for was thirty seven years. There's I mean it's is there and then I very much. I think it's from going to independent wrestling much in seeing so many manager types. Come out and start yelling at the crowd because I think that's what a manager does Andrew as supposed to get the crowd hyped up for the match and it's not the counterpart they don't understand Dan. That's very counterproductive to the match. And then you're watching. Television does a master of light already like like say. Jj Jay Dillon was or or even a Bobby Heenan at reside where they did. Little things like a manager of an athlete would do concern with the performance of his athlete. And and and You know is not just doing things to get to steal attention mentioned. Are bigfoot attention away from the wrestlers to get attention on cells. That make no sense. You know hey you got an ugly sweater. What do you mean I got a letter said he has so you have an ugly sweater that kind of approach and arn was his first time doing managing and I really the first first time he's been on the air to do something besides calmly and years and years and w w he just may connie comedy cameras and maybe once a year maybe less than that and so he was playing the role? I thought in doing a good job. And he's not totally yet but he's he's right there so I the pardon me that was like I want to see him talk but now I have that anticipation. Hi Sean my God that he's GonNa talk and and one by one of my criticisms of aws that they do it when when they're when the wrestlers that that can talk they do a very good job with it but they need to do it more often. They the the anticipation. There's a balance. You want the people to anticipate things but you also want to get things over so you can. You can err on the side of caution Russian or you're gonNA air on the side of too much and I think a w airs on the side of caution and and they did and we'll see whether it's the second. Ah The second appearances on you. Know on. And on and cody going to explain what's going and and dust and they're going to I guess brandy to going to explain what's going on on here or or next week. The announcer even asking what we don't know why you know when you look at what they started building the groundwork for those. But it's like boy. Uh I really want to know why. And then the next week they start talking about it and they leave some questions on. I think that's I think that's great. That's awesome but but a W has has put some doubt everybody's mind in my mind to weather got enough to get to really really get over. What the what they're doing and God knows I mean it's I think they will cut right now is the number one baby face and portrayed as noble baby face on the company and he just did something? So let's let's see where this let's let's have the next chapter in the story next week. Not Six weeks from now. How would you grade? The advice aren't gave cody telling him when a guy flying off the top rope to lift his knees. It's just he's doing. He's managing. He's managing the talent. He's telling he's giving them tips in the ring. That's fine it doesn't it doesn't have to be so They just need to show it in a simple way. And that's what they did. Yes we cody have brains enough to put his knees up sure. Of course he would. But that's that but it also is like. Sometimes you do the simple things just to get over. What the role is? The role is Eliza talking peace necessarily to actually manage them and actually they did a good job of of like using the figure your four which is related to horsemen related ric flair. So it's related Arn Anderson and there was another one I mean there was a spine buster or something. They kind out there so that they they showed the influence and that maybe it would have been better to have a little bit better. But that's not a little bit deeper than that one but it's still it gets over. The fact is which is fine. Yeah yeah that's fine. I mean I I just I wonder if they might not have come up with something thing a little less a little more worthy of earns years and years and decades of experience to help me out of abide and that sort of like you know I think they could it on better but I largely agree with you that the ideas just show that aren't is is is helping the stage and then we'll see you know and and this is the beginning. That's something I am. I'm intrigued Byron and Tali both being involved right now Shawn Spears looking for a tag team. Partner totally is scouting for that. They didn't bring that up this this show because I think they rightfully got a little self conscious about what I and I think. Some others poked fun at them for after the lascaux which is four or five. Different organizations recruiting recruiting people all on one show and even Jericho brought that up in a self-aware semi self deprecating situation. But I'm intrigued to see you know does does what is it has what was important to be done was important. The show and it wasn't several other things to it had storylines. But but but yeah you're right. I mean it wasn't and you don't want to do and part of it creatively. You're bouncing a lot of things and you don't want to do similar storylines next to each other And then the other thing. You've got totally blanchard there. You've got Arn Anderson there to me. And you've got Ricky and Robert the rock-n-roll Express Ricky Morton Robert Gibson. You don't WanNa have you don't WanNa have an old timers match. You don't want to have them when you have them do so do something together. Any of them together. It should be brief. It should be a callback and then it should move on in my suggestion. Awhile back was And I you know I'm not always fantasising booking for things but I was I just I thought okay what I would do. And I'm just GONNA I'm GonNa say it again what I would do would be Shawn Spears tully Blanchard or backstage. Telly Blanchard is coaching up. Shawn Spears Spears. And you can't even hear anybody say he's just in his ear talking to them about something and then from off camera comes on and he just touches. hutches tally on the shoulder. Like say look Look up for a second and when you follow where Arn and tully look they lock eyes with Robert Gibson and Ricky Morton and then you go to revisit. You had that moment where it's call back and it's a hell of a callback from guys who have an influence on wrestling tag team wrestling to this moment summit in professional wrestling But you also don't want to give the idea that you're going to match because the match the match would would be hurtful to the memory Marie. Yeah and to the legacy. So don't don't do that. Just give them that thing and then and then go with that so I think that's that's all there and to me that's a pay per view thing and it's just a it's a little added value. It's not more than that but I like that. I mean totally already master match. I mean it's just I want. What more do to and and he hasn't talked very much and aren't was a better? Promo totally was a very good product. And and and so you can you can have them talk and what I do like is one is associated with both the top babyface in the entire company and the executive vice president. And you know someone who is very very important in the stories that they're telling while while the other one is they while the other is a similar coach coach but he is coaching a prospect. And that's two different things in a keeps them from Cross coaching prospect. who was at he'll L. to and I've talked about this over the years and told the story in this way but in the heyday the four horsemen and got to see you know right up front front row literally the story that the John Hitchcock and I I would tell and and we put it like this was that on an enforcer? He was the tough guy everybody every the fans may have hated him but they expected them. They know that the character was a guy who had fight and ric flair was the greatest wrestler alive and they really wanted to cheer for Rick Flair. But they weren't allowed Eh but there was a thing of he you know he was the coal sky he was the he was the best. He was the champion and even though he was portrayed. Lucky didn't serve to be. They knew he did it. And but tully Blanchard was assault was the son of a bitch and so he said this is just pure. He'll and so to keep them over with it with a prospect hill and then our Anderson legends after years and years years of you know. That's that's the guy I hate. Well that's the guy. I hate that guy. Well he's he's the Guy I've been waiting for years. He's my favorite. Hey and so when someone new comes to hate you take your you take the devil. You know that's a real psychological thing the W. O.. Rather than the devil. You don't know an an art has gone past that of being. You know a legendary figure in the business that that fit says a legend in what in what a w is doing you know Jill Jill Ross with Jim Ross taught last week when there was a two weeks ago when there was a box in the ring and he just throws that Abdul the butcher because because Abdul the butcher in in professional wrestling would do the angle of of being a monster that was hidden box and then he'd just stay with face and that was such a not. WWe thing and so he would never make that reference in wwe but now a w can make references services to two things in professional wrestling passing and history and culture that are not wwe. Thanks and without any problems and so and so. The history of of the roads family the Anderson Anderson and Blanchard and then together all fit in that you know into what a w as calling back to and you don't WanNa call back if you call back all the time you ended up being not modder and even if you call back to a few years ago to people that are on television a few years ago and then left in the NASL. That's what you're trying to use. I you could be. TNA where you come across as kind of second right but this this these to be there were masters of what they did and doing job with it now. And they're not being being They're playing support roles at. They're the they're the the great the great wrestler who's now a great catch and that's that's you certainly traditional professional wrestling managers being real being real manager. Paul Heyman is allowed to do that because of a Half the brock listener. WWe But this man doesn't want this man Kevin Dunno to southern which is the skews for and which I believe is an excuse for this. You know that that that Vince McMahon growing up in wrestling as an announcer announcer for his father was bullied by one of the major stars that his father had captain Lou. Albano that you can see evidence of that Lou. Alabana Bana treated him like the son of the odor dilettante son of the owner. And he did it on the air and and Captain La Banda was arguably you say about a heathen was the greatest manager and it was the best manager off his time and as a performer. He was ause. But captain allow Bana was more of a draw. I mean capital Abana was arguably the number one heel and the WWF WWF in the days of Bruna San Martino Baffling. I mean he was he would come out do the big promo and that made that made the he'll opponent for the top two stars in WWF. The top three hundred faces the champions and it was he was credibility and he drew money. He'd actually had these awful matches and never never he'd get beaten in a blood match a very quick blood match but he would never sell very much a lose and those matches withdraw those matches were significant draws because people just hated La Bana and so Lou Alabana and will Obama was speaking of alcoholics. It wasn't it wasn't a it wasn't a story line but I know someone was watching wrestling and reading wrestling magazines and had no insider knowledge of Captain Louis Alabama at all. I could just see what I could see my own eyes. I knew he was in. Can you know raving drunk. I mean it was clear and it wasn't. He lost it will. It wasn't that he lost the slurring his words it was just how he approached everything. Yeah so anyway. So that kept this up man. I mean this man had been bullied by that guy you know. Hadn't it has a personal antipathy towards wrestling managers and you lose you lose that role that could be used to to really help wrestler's wrestler. Who has everything? But you're not a very good talker. Put a manager with them. Then you get talking. You've got the message directly out there in charismatic way with the Talker and then the wrestler can handle every other part of it. That's been a that's been a t a team up of Success S.. In every country every style of wrestling and major league wrestling promotion there was until on the late eighties eighties. And and part of having sexy girls at ringside. Took some jobs away from the mail manager seward who are mouthpieces mouthpieces and then you had the sable and sunny era where it was a way to make money for wrestling company by by socializing alive the characters and selling merchandise than and playboy contracts off of it and that was a way to make get ratings and money carina Iran's course and and it kept manages kept the more traditional roll out there and then you had companies will will you know wrestling companies all over the place that imitated. WWe until until you've been to an independent commotion that it ran through shows and had seventy five people there and had a had a general manager character to do general the manager angles about controlling the promotion and then one of the one of the small promotions would be invaded by another small promotion. Because that's what the the promoters and bookers of the small companies saw on the television and imitated so they have as many managers and now the manager became someone who came out and warmed up the crowd about rallying them up and and and the lack of understanding of how to effectively use how to effectively get heat particular with someone who's not arrested but even with someone who is that knowledge do get passed on and now it's back in it and the other thing is really cool to me as as an old fan. And you're like this to you know we recognize stuff but you haven't seen anybody like aren't Aniston or Tully Blanchard and and Salon. Just Paul Heyman never was good at. He's a great talker and he can look racist but he was never good physical part of of of professional wrestling hustling even as a manager. Even as a young match he was very awkward. But you've got these two guys who know all the ways to get heat as a wrestler can use them as a manager also know when to stay out of the picture or just give a little bit so the wrestlers in the match can have their rematch and not not and not have their heat dissipated by someone else as reformer. I mean it's like it's like being a referee a a lot of times. It's the referee as good referee. He's not overacting. He's acting in subtle ways. That show you that. The wrestling is really important. And that actually came up in the aren't Anderson. I'm Debbie Allen Cody match with the referee. And they did. Ah I thought they did a really good job of the wasn't that much. I'm sorry we'll see but but they had a match tonight with the referee. Wear last night. tonight yeah last night they w well. The referee had a low blow that he stopped and then set up okay. Low blows really something referee stocks and then they credibly distracted them and it's an and it went to to a near really big near fall. I've got a lot of heat because they did make a fool of referee and the referee really played and the two wrestlers really played that rolls to make incredible that the cheater was using ludlow to cheat less. We're about to go to another commercial break. Why are you listening to commercial breaks white deal with these interruptions when you can and become a VIP member support the weight? Keller pro wrestling podcast. Wait Tiller progressing post shows the Peterlee torch daily casts in the entire team and everything that we do and get a ton of return for your membership by becoming a VIP member Goethe pw torch. V I P Info Dot Com for full details. Thirty plus plus years of Archives of podcast. 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That's quite the offer but Jericho is mentioned joking about how many offers are coming. His way are how offers are being made to recruit people. Yeah go ahead yeah. You're joking about stuff that I really thought was well done. It's hard or two. It's hard to come up with an offer that in this day and time you know you can go. Hey wait if you will will do Blah Blah for me. I will give you a million dollars and everybody does. I guess it's fake number so so what you want is a number where or or something would be offered where you can see it fitting a top wrestler company. But it's not too much and it's not too little and that car was light light prestigious. It'd be important to someone's ego. Who was who was a world champion athlete and getting world champion pay? That would be quite the thing to have and it was. It wasn't too ridiculous but it was very prestigious and so you want people to go man. I don't know so maybe maybe Mosley should take the offer and the F. crowd reacted like wow. That was a good offer offer. I don't want Moxley and all it. Because clearly the manipulatives champion he'll champion. Who really does is? It does knows he doesn't deserve to be champion and he needs but he wants to be at any needs help. And so he's gathered everybody in all Win that have role to protect them. And now he's literally buying off either the the number one contender either has biggest threat or one of his biggest threats. He's wanting to buy all and he's taking it in a serious way. He's not Jericho. Did there was entertaining. Parts of Jericho's Promo and there was some some. There was some jokes in it. But it wasn't too much and you could empathize with Jon Moxley. As far as his character trying to figure out what he wants to do does he want to go and and beat Jericho for the title or take and he's taking a risk Jericho might beat him or my escape with all the things that are all the things that Jericho has all the allies that he has and the ruthlessness that he's shown he might escape that challenge and then or or or cheat to win and then Mosley's care to goes down in the rankings. Things a doesn't get another Has To work as backup for title shot and gets nothing but his pay for that title. Challenge it doesn't get the title and everything that goes with it or or he can your he can door number three and door number three. He knows what's behind door number. Three this ridiculously beautiful. Call our Top pay from this. He'll group and you know he'll be involved in everything but having the title he'll have the back of someone that I thought really smartly established in a credible way that Jericho wasn't Jericho was a mentor. For for Jon on March back in the back of the wwe days. And I thought that was really so it was like I could really see him taking this offer and then the key you too it was there. Wasn't anybody yelling on as in S. L.. Man You gotTa take it which is what you do on. WB BECAUSE THOSE WBZ okay. Hey you can get this. Even the the the baby face side or the the sides the tells the fans what they should think Tom Would say oh. You know natural you type that you'd be stupid not to and that's terrible so you had done. I really liked. How much sleep pet played the offer? which was he didn't he didn't completely by but he didn't completely Say Notre leader and you could tell tell by the fans reaction if you watch the fans and listen to them. They don't want John Mosley to take that and they're mad about the off like don't take it and they're pissed passed and they think he could to me. That's that's the people at home reacted to it. Whatever the writing was that similar ways is that's going to be a ratings draw for the next week? What's the answer to the question? Does he take. It does not end it supplies. Where Mosley does a kick ass baby-faced Promo and rejects the idea that he can be bought and wants that title and doesn't want to be with anybody audie much less you know? He's he's the he's the lone wolf outlaw and really defines that that's a place where it is going to give momentum to that match on the paper and so I I liked how this was all played. I liked how I let you had a cool car. And they didn't didn't immediately have Mosley go out and and trash the car and I don't think you should have not attracted to car at all but but it is going to be a whole lot better. If he does next week then he he just immediately did it and you have this question out there on that she wants the answer to this. Major question wants the answer. That's major comp implications and complications and it also character defining. I'm GonNa talk about health. Correct the funding for Mosley. But it's also to find for Jericho because it's Jericho not wanting to face a challenge that show a challenge to his Champion status the best wrestler in the entire world W The best restaurant entire world. He disguise too to dangerous. He's got to bring him and put him in his pocket of these going to survive because because the guy the guy is actually better than he is. Bosley is actually like better than he has done. Jericho as Jericho's Jerko is being truthful. There so I thought it was really well polite I I liked. I liked Jericho. Kauai like that and then Jerico looking a look degenerating physically and looking little more. We're desperate and and at that at that place where he's got all this knowledge but his body starting to go downhill and then he's that champion who clearly don't make a big the deal out of it but it's after leaving leaving the champions live and that puts them and what I mean by that is maybe not getting all sleeping pills and so and they're not. Your Jerko has a reputation of drinking and carousing and all that In real life and so it plays off a little bit of that. But they're not showing it to. They're not showing in him. Losing control of that stuff but it does the fact that you know when he takes his shirt off. He doesn't look like like a male model it is mid forties. He looks like a guy pushing fifty. WHO's an athlete but also also on the wear and tear being that athlete and living that life is on him? And I'd I crack up. I got the big thing with Sean Radical Wackos. Oh Jacob looks terrible so I know He. Doesn't they buy. He looks like his character. And then he's performing in the ring at a level where he's not where he's not one of the top wrestlers in the world like he has been in in other times but he's a top worker and he's very good at playing the role in his timing is very good and fans react to not like these. This past is not what he's this way past time. Really well known randy the ram type figure wrestler. That shouldn't be in the championship place. They react to them like he's a great. He'll and dad's debt that that's the test at the end of the day. Are they looking at the guy with a shirt off and they're looking at. How acts and all these things that are true in certain ways is and does it? Does it fit. The character fit the package or is it working against them and it's working for him now. I don't think Chris Jericho should be in the top role role in a W in a year from now. I think he has a cover this before. But I think if he has a V. continues. What's been a very effective rod on? He'll of established the Awa Championship World Championship as the top title in wrestling because all the credibility brings Ed for all those years and WWE WWF new Japan. And and you know and everything he's done as far as changing characters just being top guy and and and and manipulating his way through some very dangerous on political waters that at a he could establish that that that championship as the most famous most over wrestler in the company and one must same as over wrestlers in the world Brienne from w. w. w. and then going to another role more part of what scares me sameness part time role but And and having someone John Whoever beats them in cody or ago or someone from the A. W. Pack then w title hit but having him being the first one he's done a good job establishing these continue to do that off a few other items from dynamite last night that I want to get your thoughts on. MJ Promo. Was this what you're looking for or did he stray a a little bit away from what you think is the ideal lane for him to drive in as a hill no. I thought he was very good very energetic. I thought he was on the entire time. I thought he was villainous. And that he is taking every opportunity to stick as retrial into the the face of cody and at his it is undeserved retrial. And he's giving reasons truthful reasons for that betrayal. That don't quite hang together. He's really good. He'll and he's really natural out of he. I mean that Roddy Piper thing my saw Roddy Piper as a rising rising star in mid Atlantic and become you know while the become one of the very top eagles in the business during his time there and L. A. Legendary he'll promo an alleged he'll and like I haven't seen anybody come system. I've seen a lot of good greg. Good to great promos and a lot of good to great heels but no one with that feeling of Roddy Piper M J continues to show that I mean. It's just that that was dead on. I mean you couldn't keep your eyes off off his face. You what the message that. It was delivering or despicably. I'm smart smart and evil and he wanted any really. You're in that position of the DON rickles slang up. Wow He's really insulted but I'm I'm real but I've got US awesome humor and not going along with it and I'm laughing at it was like no he was Dick and But he was entertaining. He was entertaining to he was walking. That wrote I'd I like this a lot. I just think how he's putting obstacles in the way of cody. Yes of the pop hero and An unfair obstacles and but realistic unfair obstacles. So I I really love this product. Excellent Also semi Varo was utilized more four. He's utilizing multiple segments up the cue cards during the commercial break on split-screen wandering to a couple of other segments being obnoxious. What what do you think of Sammy's talented general? And then how specifically used tonight Murat last night I should say I like it. It's not a complete parallel. But he's uh he's the body robbers of the the inner circle and other words. He's out there he's annoying he's he's he's he's not as smart as he thinks he is and he thinks he's really smart and you can beat them up and you can beat and and that that means that you don't have to beat up the tot or beat the top stars and when you die in the inner circle and when you do it's GonNa Have that much more that much more there. He's that's a really important role and it looks like he's the bottom on totem pole. And you're not a I've heard Michael Hayes talk about how Buddy Roberts who looked like the the the the shop of the free bards was really the key and the three of them getting over because you could beat him up which meant that. You didn't beat the the the loud mouth who who wasn't as good as he thought he was. And you didn't beat up the stud you'd are beat the Stud Interior Gory and so so you had the guy that you could that you could do that too. And then keep the whole the whole team running and then he could lose and Guerrero has shown this ability. Yeah this is a big important ability. which is he could lose and still piss you off? The next time and store was over when Buddy Robert I got bit beat and Guevarra when he gets beat you know. He's he's good at this role next time he shows up and does that. I'll does those little things. You're going to be a fan of watching the story. We'll be like oh I still beat up. So it's you know it's like angel from the Rockford files to get all the long ago but when the all time great television shows when they all time great characters he never learned it was the weasel character. Got Who got the protagonist. Jim Rodford into trouble all the time and he never learned but mmediately you you were interested in when he showed up because it meant something was up and play. He played the weakness of so well. And so it's not exactly the same thing but it's like it's a a character that you know the of for another old time Ruffin cliche or an all-time cliche is he's he's. He's one of those straws. Drink the the last comment I want to get from. Your show is is Tests on commentary. I know you've been a big fan of Tony Shivani with Ross and Excalibur excalibur. Tony on assignment with college football duties. I assume that's what it was tests Takes his place. What did you think it has has ruled that he freshened up the show? Did he contribute in a different way. Yeah Georgia suitable last night. And the biggest football game of the year for them and big ballgame Antonio Motti works for you know works on the radio for them. I thought TASR was really good. I thought it's not easy to like not do play by play for years no matter a- and there was found with ties was excellent. Play by play guy. There's other times where Y- companies worked against him or he. He wasn't as good as he. You better whatever. But it's like to step into the step into a new story and have to do it live on the air. And there's not producers feeding you you and of course there's not producers getting in your way and messing with your confidence either giving you stupid lines to say and that kind of thing but you could tell he was up to date on what was going on and he had points that he come up with that fit the storyline that that helps support. And you Jim Ross Kinda go yes. That's a good one and and and kind of feed her back and forth. I thought it was. I thought it was cool to see TASR. And what you don't want to see the the old guy come back and I'm not I'm thinking about this myself or anything but the old guy come back and be shaky. And he wasn't shaky he was good and it ah is not going to be there all the time or as they want to be different than wwe w has several different You know announced teams. They've got one we've got to take about eight W DR took they. Can you know and they can bring in a tasr has and just hiring for short amount of time for that for that spot as an announcer and it brings in credibility and it brings the people go. Hey It's good to see him again and I thought he. I thought he did a good job last night. I want to see him call mashes again. Yes if you're a wrestling fan you're a fan of a good story in if you're looking for a good story look no further than stories of your and yours I'm Sean. Ns and on every the episode of stories of your and yours. I narrate a classic or listener submitted. Short story adding music and sound effects. Bring the story new flavor I featured authors such as was that growling pope. Kurt vonnegut Ray Bradbury Mark Twain and many more. So don't wait any longer. Download stories of your. That's why O.. R. E. and and yours that's why O. U. R. S. Today and if you want to hear clips and get more information you can find the show on facebook twitter and Instagram at S. Y.. Y podcast that stories of your and yours available wherever you get your guests part one question one question around things out today. Let's go to Zack in Texas. He said I'll wait. And Bruce as listening to the dynamite last night and something jumped out at me a fellow called in to discuss watching dynamite for the first time. He said he normally watch next up to to watch. Aws Annex T was a best of show. He didn't watch AWA because he wanted to necessarily he watched it because an xt wasn't on and unsurprisingly. He's going to room watching next next week. That's his choice. And more power to on that exchange though was a microcosm of the issue I have with this whole Wednesday night were narrative it's a false narrative setup by WWe to attack a w and everyone fans and the media like reacting with a shoulder shrug. Shouldn't there be more of an effort to enjoy w for the good product that it is and critique it on its own merits rather than comparing it to annex t especially especially since Awa was intentionally trying to avoid head to head battle in the first place. You're normally the voice of reason bruce. So tell me you agree with me so you have a command. They're not a question. What is the worst email did I have heard? I'm not even talking about professional wrestling anything that I've got an email. Someone asked me a question. Now Yeah I mean there's a part of it is not just wwe casting that or even a w casting that way it's it's it's it's Fans in two thousand nineteen some of them but not all of them have turned it into a team robbery. Robbery our brand robbery. And you know if you lived in D.. Go Way back again. If you lived in the in the heart of the AWA and UA wrestling fan back then in the sixties seventies. You thought your thought Awa wrestling was better than WWF wrestling in New York. Even if you didn't see it even if it wasn't on your cable or was on your television you thought you had the best Russell and part of it was gone in in in wally. Carbo told you that it was the best wrestling you over and over again and part of it was it was a hell of the wrestling cut. It had great wrestlers top wrestling the world there. And so you took a pride and rooting for Greg. At Greg Ganja Jimbo Zell against the East West Connection Action of Jesse Ventura and and the other Guy Catering Adriana dodds and but just that was your home team Russell and and you also told you that the That Awa wrestling was the best wrestling in the world. It was better than any other wrestling company. You'd be aware of the rest of the companies United States in the world but they were bigger and better than they had the data wrestlers in competition and in a certain way educated was the best way to have and every on top promotion did that every regional promotion did did that and so I'm the one that really successful people out of product and and watching them so you're going to have people that you for years and Years Watch wwe. And I really really do think. It's like the abused relationship. The abuser and the museum. The museum has the the wrestling fan. But that sticks that sticks in the relationship and then you've got You got someone who picked whoever reason they picked St. When this when this head to head battle whip or they pay the day W and they can tell you about it and I and I look at particularly for a w I just see this? Every little thing is a crisis for some fan this this was really for some fans. But there's a lot of these some fans and I it really put a put some fans on ed little bit the World Chase. There's not just a monopoly. There might be A. It's not a monopoly in the wrestling business anymore and It might that might change how they look at wrestling and they're not at makes them laborious secure in their views and so on my God. They didn't do this. You know they did. But it's not the end of the world and and you're missing that they did this this and this. That was more important that was that was well done. And so I and and then you know our jobs over the years have been to watch not just bad wrestling on us but but but different types of wrestling that worked and so when there's two types of There's two shows that I can look and with my own eyes ago that's a good shot And so was that and they're saying time and I've got the ability now. Technology would technology to watch the switch back and forth between the two of you know at the touch of a button and everybody's had that technology for for many years now and now I also so have the ability to watch one show. If I'm really thinking show was good and hey I'm missing something good on the other station like and that. That was a big thing in the Monday night. Wars doesn't exist now because at least at that. Oh my God I can't Miss Switch over because you've got the ability to record Bo shows and watch them whenever you want to later on And so to me. It's like an I didn't like the I didn't let have to recap show recap shows ought to come back but I did a very good job producing it kind of half way. And I'm not talking about the highest shut. Those are very good. Good I just mean having having rustlers ring in an empty were in an inspiration. A- talking to each other like at this stands out there and it's kind of like produce your your partnership with Fox. Look at how Fox produces shows is built around football game so built around college football or definitely the NFL and interview people in that way with some energy to it. I thought I thought the next suit thing was kind of skeptical and In and you've got to you got to have the context of of those types of interviews around the highlights that make it seem report and then you're willing to revisit what was the best action and the most impactful action of the year in a in a in a very good wrestling promotion is live features wrestling but anyway that will speech But I thought at just look at this and go you know. It's not that the guy was forced to watch the other show he chums too. It's like okay. I can skip the upswing. It's not GonNa be a big week and and his judgment and I can watch a w view and give it a try. And maybe he goes. I'm GONNA stick with the next day but that wasn't bad or maybe that was a lot better next to and I'm I'm going to or or better stay. I'm going to give them more of a chance or I'm going to switch and that's fine. I have looked at Wednesday night. Not that I find myself defending on twitter a w more because I think there's a a run into people some of them that were for the torch to but no it shocked. No Sean Sean. His life of anybody on our staff has been over the years and it's been many years he's been on the staff. It's not just I've been on just because on forever doesn't mean that radic hasn't been radical is an old. It's just not as all that but he he is obscene different styles and successful small promotions and and all kinds of things. This is kind of surprising. But that he reacts come viscerally to a W and and overreacts to flaws and and also. I think it's again it's having watched a ton of I. I never but I hope that I get a show this attack in and out of ten in the sense of boy they did everything right. That's really cool. But I don't expect that every show. I think a good wrestling. I think a good roster shows gonNA take care of their top stars and potential for the next week and it's going to be about business but there's also gonNA win their flaws. I don't sit there and go that negates everything else but you can have talk flaws that do negate everything else and you saw that in a WCW. I think and and and Thomson that promotion Russian where the things they were doing on top negated the effort of a lot of great wrestling matches on the in the mid card. And so but anyway. I'm I'm like why people are reacting to to the two of them going man I got to wrestling too great wrestling shows. I can watch their different instead of taking one and being being with us about it. I don't know why but also you know. WWE has built their brand built loyalty into the McMahon family. We're talking about this before that. There's this there's this thing of instead of the promoter promotes for me and to get my I money. The promoter promotes for himself to make himself happy and my role is to help. Make the promoter. Happy by I giving him money and going along with what he's telling me and that's a real difficult psychology and this is the only one ever gotten to that point and I think he's the only one whoever will and so but if you look at Inex- tea and you look at a w both of them are not about the promoter or back the general manager there about the wrestlers and I think that's that's a relief and that's you know that's there and it also tells me I think the feud of the year last year was the real. The real wrestling view of the year wasn't in the ring and it wasn't even a w versus w. w. w. a. a the real rivalry was on this man versus triple h and I think we're GONNA see that. See that get stronger longer. But a lot of it's GONNA be head behind the scenes and a lot of it's going to be hidden from the people involved or even not to be shown clearly. Ah from the to themselves. Wrestling fans are. Are you that person that works in a reference to every aspect of your life. Well we're those kind of people to but we do so with mixed martial arts. I'm Robert Enviros hosts of enemy talk for pro wrestling fans every Monday on. Pw Torches daily cast lineup. Not only do we cover every U. OF C. alatorre event we provide context that only a wrestling fan would really understand. I mean we're the type of people that if you ask us about. How much of a mess? The middleweight title title situation is were likely to reference. WCW In the early nineties. Think of us as a podcast for casual may fens done by hardcore wrestling nerves. uh-huh and you could find us by searching Pete of torture and apple podcasts or any popular podcast and were always available on demand at peak w torch DEVI CAST DOT com. Where you you could check out the entire lineup of the PD towards daily casts? So yeah I mean I look at that as far as the question goes life. Just if you're a fan or even if you're someone who covers there's wrestling wrestling is so wide now you can pick you can pick something to cover or as a fan you can pick what you like For whatever reasoning like it and then go watch it and you're not required to watch everything else so there's a there's a wide menu for you to not only to watch the things that you really like. Watch the stars or the styles or the Promotions that you really like but to ignore the ones that you a not you know. I don't know I don't waste my time hating television shows. I don't watch I. I hate television. Shows that you make me watch some some avenue but I mean if someone makes me watch that wasting my time I hate that. But if there's some television show out there that sounds the sounds to me like something I would like and I don't watch it I don't hate it. I just ignore you know in fairness in fairness to the caller all I all he did. Is this call up to give us impressions on a show. He had been watching. Because I thought I invite open phone lines and I thought it was super interesting to hear from somebody who's used to the hour want to hear from that. I very very much so I'm not putting not putting that down the decision making that went behind that. Hey the promotion I liked is exactly what I'm talking about. He likes the next stay and so he watches in state. And doesn't think you'd be interested in w watching it later on after the broadcast okay. Fine but but the fact that he gave it a chance like I would want to know what that person is thinking and so that you had him on your show that he called showed. I'm one hundred percent supportive of that absolutely and I think there is something to be learned from what somebody a potential customer who can make that type of person can make-or-break. That's supportive on. I think you learn and certain ways someone in our job and as someone in the wrestling business. It's GONNA learn more in a different way from someone like that then from from a regular viewer or regular twenty four hour seven day a wake wrestling fan our clientele. You're going to to to seek out to seek out people like this. I mean that's yeah I'm all I'm interested in that and I think that type of fan listening listening to them. If you'RE A W is more valuable than well. It's I'd say it's more valuable. But it's not to discount the value of of hearing from people who who tend to like what you're doing and and are not looking at it with any kind of critic because they're so ultra satisfied with the positives is it is of the show but hearing for somebody says God. This is a product I'm used to and it was rerun. I tried it. Had it been a different type of show I would become a regular viewer either on. DVR surly we live but maybe live it could have displaced annex. T be God. That's that's exactly that would be the first of of different types of fans if I was running the wrestling company that I would want to talk to because that's someone who is telling you. I'm here to be recruited. And here's what I'm thinking and ah you'd want that knowledge you'd want that knowledge of of okay. What does he like? And what is he not like and then reflect on those things and see if you can incorporate the answers to everything I mean. That's I mean that's a potential new customer that's Because what you WANNA do is keep the fans Jordi have and and grow the audience and then you know wrestling because technology has because of what we do is bigger in professional wrestling Dennis. It's ever been it's not all of it is not every fan but but this type of fan there's more them and then there's less of the casual. I just turn on the television and watch title fans in the there's ever did and so the conventional wisdom fan who follows not only the wrestling show themselves but the critiques and the critical eye of other people rustling of their friends of able that they follow. Sometimes that conventional wisdom. I am Fan. Doesn't give you very much insight. They they can repeat what what I've already heard or seen her or sometimes said and but it that fresh eyes of anything going to going to help you. Sometimes the fresh eyes are going to be ridiculous. And it's just like okay. You just someone who it'd be it'd it'd be like me watching. I'm trying to think of what like me. Maybe watching a morning show border shows on aimed at me and an ad so I might make fun of something that really fits the audience that its aim for and I might ritual that because I don't we'll have the knowledge of what they're trying to do and that's you know so anyway. Yeah I think does but yeah I seek when I go to independent shows when I wanted to talk to somebody somebody on an an. And that's that's that's some of the people. I'm going to talk to and at school and at work if I run into somebody who is a wrestling fan either starting to be wrestling fan or they're wrestling fan from years ago. They're wrestling fan. Who doesn't you ever go up on the Internet? I'm GonNa talk to them because I'm GonNa get I'm GonNa get a fresh pretty intelligent approach to they already like it so they're already open to the idea. They're not just doing. That's just a bunch of fake crap were just a vulgar circus or whatever it is and it is inside. That's fine. You're not watching because of that. But it's like they're watching and here's what I like and here's what I don't like and that sort of you know I even can think of a kid that was close to while I asked through who hadn't watched is wrestling before and I asked him like okay and I try not to go. Don't you likes. Oh don't you hate so and so I just go tell them that you like and and then I might ask about top guys when I'm talking to kids like that and they're gonNA give you reasons and they're going to give you unaffected. Thanks for that. And unlike here's this grown up who's who's wanting to express what he saw like assuming that say and it's that's really invaluable are very good. Tell people how they can follow you on Sir on twitter I guess is the only place you are out missile. Pw Torch at Mitchell. POW Torch. Bruce thank you can check out. The rich lady was show with VIP membership and get to not only here new shows. He does weekly but but also catch up on fifteen years of Bruce Mitchell audio shows Bruce. Thank you so much appreciate it. Fix Live from Japan and Minneapolis Quite a again. There's all kinds of things going on in wrestling and The New Japan tour is definitely one of the problems called. I can confirm that thanks. Yeah if you'd like to hear this show L. 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