Dorie Greenspan and Joy the Baker Make Some Magic
Hey everyone. Welcome to Radio Cherry bonds the podcast it's all about women and food. I'm your host carry diamond. Taking a little time off. Into the archives for our latest episode, we're bringing you a conversation with two of our favorite people Dorie Greenspan enjoy the baker. Joy. Interviewed, Doriot at last year's Cherry Bomb Jubilee Conference in Brooklyn and it was a lot of fun hearing and seeing them together. Speaking of Dory, we have some good news to share jewelry is a grandmother for the first time congratulations to Dory and her family baby Jemma, no doubt has an epic birthday cakes in her future. Thank you to the folks at Sonos for supporting today's show. Stay tuned to hear about my experience with the new Sonos move. What else we have a brand new section of Cherry, bomb dot com to check out it's called members corner and we're celebrating official members of the bomb squad. You can check out remember spotlights plus the products, services and cookbooks from our talented friends. Here's one I. Love La Vida Verde Plant based Mexican cooking with Authentic Flavor by Joslyn Ramirez. It's a great addition to your cookbook collection. If you'd like to become an official member of the bomb squad visit Cherry bomb. Dot Com to learn more. We'll be right back after this word from Sonos. have. You ever wished your home was wired with great sound I. Know I have and the folks had Sonos have made my wish come true. They recently sent me their Sonos Move Premium Portable Smart Speaker to road test and I'm an audio heaven with great sound in every single room I just pick up my Sonos move and go for my bathroom to my kitchen to my Home Office also known as my living room I can control everything I listen to write from the SONOS APP on my phone and Switzer my favorite new wave playlists to the podcast I listened to cook clean workout, or vigil. Probably more edging out than working out but whatever. I love the crystal clear sound and the rich base, and I also loved how easy my Sonos move was to set up I charged it downloaded the SONOS APP and set everything up in about five minutes for those of you with back yards or Patios or pools you can take your Sonos, move outside or invite me over and I'll bring mine. The long lasting battery provides up to eleven, hours of sound and bonus. The speaker is weather resistant. Wants to surround yourself with beautiful sound. Maybe it's time to make a move go to SONOS DOT COM to learn more. Now for Dory and joy introducing them as Christina. Co Founder and Co owner of macaroni Parlor and meow parlour in New York City. I'm so excited everyone came up to hear me talk. So my name's Christina, I have two main interests, cookies and cats. And I do both for a living I've bakeries called macaroni parlor. Then there's meow Parlor New York's first cat cafe. UNAI throw the cat equivalent of this jubilee. Call Jackson Galaxies Cat camp. I'm a lucky person. I have a wonderful family. I have amazing friends. I've great employees have helped over five hundred cats fine homes. However things weren't always this way. The loneliest period of my life was about ten years ago. I'm not sure what I was looking for when I moved to. New York but I knew I was afraid to stay in the suburbs and afraid that I would just settle. As a teenager I didn't know what saddling was I didn't know if it meant fulfilling the dreams of my immigrant parents by becoming a lawyer or it was choosing a path because it seemed easy. I don't know why but I had felt uneasy for a very long time. So I just kept busy. I graduated college in three and a half years then went back to school to get an associate's and then back to school to learn how to sew instead of pursuing higher education as just signing up for school for the sake of filling my time I took internships and eventually jobs and my dream companies to around one day and wonder why I didn't fit in. I'm introvert who felt so uncomfortable in a city of eight million people that I was thinking to myself. It was my mom who encouraged me to sign up for my first speaking in class. At that point, she knew I would never be a doctor or a lawyer and she knew what unhappiness look like she told me that when I was in preschool a weekly baking class news my favorite thing in the world she knew I was lonely than to partly because they didn't speak a lot partly because I didn't understand what people were saying and partly because they constantly felt like other. But food has no language. Barriers knows my favorite part of the school week. So as an adult I started to take baking classes. Over time late nights of anxiously waiting for the night to end and the next workday to begin turned into hours spent on the floor with my feet propped up against the oven watching breads, rise cookies, Caramel lies and magic happen. Finally something felt right. I'd spent. So long chasing a shadow, they never stopped to look at what was in front of me that in a city with thousands of restaurants, fast casual joints and cafes. The thing that made me happiest could be a career I went all in. I use a recession as an excuse to shrug and say, the dust job wasn't going anywhere anyway within a year. I was in pastry school met my now husband who's over there and we started macaroni parlor. But anyone who has opened a business knows the first few years are still lonely. You don't have time to socialize because you're understaffed. You're afraid to step out because replaced my burn down in fifteen minutes you're gone. And you go to sleep. So late that you wake up tired but that kind of loneliness didn't her purpose and it was tangible and things felt right. During this period I didn't have many friends, but I had the Internet. I used to write about my life about owning a business and the things I was learning. I didn't write for an audience I wrote because for the first time in a long time idol. And so I wrote into the abyss of the Internet. Much to my surprise. It spoke back. If you love New, York has a cat cafe. It only exists because my business partner sent me a fam- letter five years ago. And I was so touched that I hired her to work in my kitchen. Someone who works for me? Now read my blog when she was in. Pastry? School Last month someone from Australia message me to say that she thought me recently because you starting her own business. I haven't written for many years now because I'm not lonely. But there are still people out there looking. It made me realize that we're all looking for some connection. It's what makes us alive Dory understood this years ago before we had twitter and instagram that will food is a necessity. It's so much more than that. It's about people. It's about connecting with others about memories and experiences. Her cookbooks were the first. I had ever read that included stories about a recipe. Thirteen cookbooks in Dory's invited people all over the world in some of the greatest kitchens and more recently into our own kitchen. I I found founder through her world peace cookies name because they are good enough to bring world peace. Then, there was Tuesday's with Dory where people connected with each other from their own homes by blogging matter recipes, entire communities sprung out of doors writing and everyone who participated how their own story to tell she helped people create memories. Today we have so many more tools at our grass to allow sustain touch to meet new people to double tap or Swipe. Right. We can invite people to peek into our kitchens with photos taken out on a phone or quite literally like joy invite people to cook besides us in our actual kitchen joys. One of those people who figured out a way to combine storytelling food and the desire to connect both on and offscreen using these new tools. She gets it our it'd be surprised that's helping out someone who is lonely today. Food has stories to tell people to feed, and they'll look forward to listening to these women talk about their careers, the human element of food and how social media has impacted the landscape their first cookbook to now. Dory was one of the first people in the food industry. I men in a mentorship program and for years she sent me words of encouragement every few months I'll get an email from her about something. She saw that she wanted to share or to see if I was practicing self care. Or just to send some love. Doria was one of my first friends is an adult and she claimed she had nothing to teach me. She may not know this the much of what I've learned from her has shaped entirety of my career. So with that off my chest, I'm so happy for everyone here to listen to the Magic to come because I know it's going to be so beautiful in you. I'm going to start off my conversation with Dory today by telling her story. So I was saying in two thousand six, I was working as a baker in two bakeries. I wasn't joy the baker. So it was funny that I was a baker in two bakeries because I was an enthusiastic home. Baker. And I had finagled my way into to baking jobs because I realized that if you like to bake and you will get to work at three thirty in the morning you're hired you know. So I would get to work at two thirty in the morning and start baking. Because a lot of times, I would mess things up and have to throw them away. So then at three thirty, when real bakers came in I'd be like, Hey, guys just starting fresh. Just here ready. That happened a lot I ruined so much chocolate Mousse. Okay. I'll get to it. Wait matching you in this bakery like coming prepared with extra black bags to throw. Yes right and. After I get off of work I would go home on the way home. There was a bookstore and in the bookstore was your baking from my home to yours. And I couldn't afford to buy it but I would sit in the aisle and copy down your few recipes word for word. It's no problem. And then I would take the notebook to the bakery at two thirty in the morning and try some of your recipes and what was so that wasn't the one that didn't work was it. That you know they always. And what was so wonderful to me about that book is that your technique was so helpful but it was written from the perspective and from the heart of a home Baker, and so I could take it to this new job in a place where I was making friends with my fear and I got so much comfort and skill from it and I bought the book. I eventually could afford it. I had to save a, but but the mother, and me is thinking if only I had known this I would have since you the book. Story. Don't do that. People need to buy books. So. Yeah. So I wanted to tell you that story and then ask you thank you. Ask you how your kitchen journey started and what were the books that maybe you held close to your chest as you were embarking on your journey from. Home Baker to professional person Home Bega Home Baker. Yeah. No I I am a home bigger nitrous. I worked with Julia Domna answering your question but I will call okay. So I had the amazing amazing good fortune to work with Julia. Child in the nineties I wrote baking with. Julia. which was the book that accompanied her TV series and we would shoot every day and one day Julius said I want to play Hooky we'd play Hooky with me. and. So I had I still have it a little MIATA, which is like a car the size of a Jelly Bean holdaway. You have a Miata a red one. Red One. And it's it was it's a convertible but Julia. You couldn't you couldn't take the top down because her hair and Julia had sized twelve or thirteen feet, and so I kind of had to plead her to get her into the car but this isn't. But this isn't the story I want to tell you so. Julia said, let's play Hooky IRA her into the car. Her idea of Hooky is going to the supermarket. And so we're shopping around she's helping people choose a good Mellon and at some point she turned to me and sheep put her arm around me. She's six feet tall and she said, you know we make such a good team. And I was really touched and she said, we make a good team because we're just a couple of home bakers. And even after all the Julia had done and all the Chia taught all of us she really thought of herself as a home. Baker and I have never stopped thinking of myself. And so I burnt my parents kitchen down when I was twelve I wasn't GonNa do this very quickly I wasn't allowed to be I got married when I was nine, thousand, nine, hundred I'm still married to Michael Greenspan. And I learned to cook and Bake Because I. I learned to Cook Because I had to and I learned to bake because I really wanted to and I my book the book that is. Tattered and has spots I thought they were chocolate I have no idea what they are. They're all over the place. Is Me to hear she was my does it does anybody know mediator? So she was my hero everything. I made from her books worked her directions were so. When I started writing about food. I had made it in my my head she was. She taught me to Bait. What is your favorite thing of hers to Bake? Do you have a favorite? She had lemon cake in her first book that I made four. I made it every year for. Our son's teachers for their Christmas gift. I made it for pot lots. made it for everything and when her. The paperback version came out that recipe wasn't there and. One book later she wrote and she said, here's my revised version. She said I can't figure out why didn't work but people started writing to heard this was writing that in and it didn't work and she retest it and she claimed that it didn't work because there were demons. I live in New Orleans and Their demons, every demons and ghosts are everywhere. So I learned I learned to bake from meter from guests on the note when his first he's a he's now dead but I think is the father of modern pastry and when his book was first translated into English. That was that was my book. Do you write in your cookbooks? Do I write my own cookbook? No I know you. Yes. I do right in my cookbooks. Yeah. I make notes ice I had my first cookbook. I got when I was twelve years old. So like one of those paperback church cookbooks and in it every time I made a certain recipe I, write the date and right my thoughts about it. Opens journaling and my cookbook and I still have that book has lots of took. My Mother didn't make when my parents moved to Florida. My mother called me. She was so excited she to ovens and I said but you don't Cook or bake. She said Moore Storage. So I never had I I didn't have a cookbook until I got married and it was the New York Times Cookbook. That's it's my first bill. What was food like for your family when you were growing up so my father owned a supermarket. So there was plenty of food nobody ever wanted to cook it, and so there was a housekeeper in the housekeeper cooked I don't remember my mother cooking I have no memories of my mother's cooking or my father I have new favorite dishes from childhood. And I think. Now as I look back, it seemed perfectly normal to me I. Didn't know anything else but I realized this I think back on. How important it was for me to make a home when we got married and for me home meant being at the table having friends at the table I. Think it came from. A kind of. Deprivation in but it wasn't but I was happy I. You know I hear you but you want it's like a way of nurturing. You're building a way of nurturing your relationships and Romantic and friendship and everything I know that I. I'm sure I didn't know what I was doing but boy I'm glad I did. Because it is it is about having. Through food that we make relationships in that, we make memories that last in case you didn't hear me like singing happy birthday from the rooftops yesterday our son turn forty yesterday and it was birthday cake and it was looking at pictures of him blowing out. Candles. Three candles, twenty candles making the same cake that I've made for him for years and years and years. What is that cake So it's a chocolate cake tweaked it a little bit to make it a little less sweet. It's a dark chocolate cake with butter buttermilk cake in it. Scott Chocolate frosting and it can hold lots more than forty candles. I'll make your ready. Do you make. Okay. I have a lot of questions I want to ask you. But since we're talking about birthday cakes, do you make your own birthday cake? Do you. Yes. Is that because you don't trust anybody else. Who makes your birthday cake and what is it? So it's interesting, I was so set on it's not interesting. It's just it is. I was so set on having traditions. Because I didn't grow up with them. But I have no particular birthday king now now. I mean Joshua has his chocolate king. Okay I want to ask you about. Food writing because I think you are such a beautiful food writer. How did you transition from? Your work in the kitchen to writing about food. I started as a writer. So I went to Graduate School I'm all but dissertation for a doctorate in Gerontology the study of aging about which I can tell you more now than I could have one I was in graduate. School. And I worked in a research center for many years grading and I think and I was very lucky. I work for someone who really encouraged me right and who was a good editor and I. I never saw the separation between developing recipes and writing to me writing the recipe instructions was a form of creative writing. It was a way of. Imagining somebody in the kitchen imagining targeting to them it was a conversation for me. So it always felt like like grading it always felt like like I was talking to the person who would be following my recipes. So that was I don't I hadn't odd experience. Of Friend of mine. Akali friend was going to an award nomination and a book of mine. What was the baking? With Julia Book Was Had just been published in and she said to me. I hope you don't get nominated. And when I could catch my breath, I said, what are you saying and she said, well, all you did was write the book. And I've thought about that twenty some years ago and I thought I always think about that because I think about what is it about? Is a cookbook just the recipes. Is a cookbook a cookbook is something you right? Do we think about the importance of writing when it's instructional I think it is whole peace and it never occurred to me that being just the writer was anything less than being. So it's I. Think about this a lot. I think that I would to seek cookbooks thought about as. Books that well as cookbook pieces of writing, there is so much personality that goes into the even just the instructional part of a cookbook. It's unique to its writer. Yeah I. Mean You have a very particular way of raiding your recipes of it's it's it's our voice. And Yeah it's instruction and pep talk and like walking people back from the cliff you know it's like particularly with baking. Yeah. Thank you very much. So in working I would love to hear more about your time working with Julia and what it was like to work on that book. Soup I had met Julia in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, one in my first book came out. It was my first time ever in front of people. I was the kid in the back of the room because I didn't want to raise my hand. But when my book was published, I had to actually get out into the world and like make sure somebody other than my mother who I knew would never use it with by it, and so I was invited to give a demo at Bu, and on that program was Julia and Jack Pippen and me. And Julia befriended me at that I mean she just she saw a lonely scared young woman and she. took me around and we kept in touch and when she was working on this book. She asked if I would write it but I had just started working for the food network and I was in show business and I said No. I said I'm not writing anymore I'm a producer. This is my new life, and after about six months I realized how much I missed writing. And I called and said WHO's writing your book and she said we haven't found anybody. I. Mean I almost missed that opportunity she is everything that you the Julia that you see on television is the Julia that you see. All the time shoves so smart. So funny. So curious about everything she on her computer broke and my my husband was up while we were shooting and she said Michael go upstairs see what you can do with it and he was petrified that he was GonNa ruin Julius computer but he went upstairs and he sees he turned around and Julius there and he said Julia I'm. Working on it all she said, no, no, no I want to see what you're doing. You're not always going to be here. I WANNA learn how to do this. She wanted to learn everything she called me one morning. Shit, you have a bread machine. I said, no, she said aren't you interested asset? Not really she said you should be I'm getting one today and you should too. She was really an intellectual. She really studied everything. She knew the history of thing she wanted to know everything when she was. She wanted to teach people her whole. If you've never read a book called if you're interested in Julia, if you've never read a book called. As always Julia, it's the letters that she wrote to Avis Devoto who helped her get mastering the order French. Cooking published. You get to see the way she worked the how important every detail was attorney has she wouldn't let anything go it had to be right. She kept polishing she kept working her work. Her Work Habits were extraordinary her commitment and I took away from working with her that kind of. Focus and how much you have to demand of yourself to do good work. Another through line with fat feels like constant curiosity only. which which is required to push yourself forward and better what are you curious about outside of food? What am I what are you serious about like? What do you owe like? I'm curious about of you. I want to know everything about like where you've got started you know what you WanNa do how you make things work I'm curious about people I'm in love with Paris I've been lucky enough to live there as a part timer for twenty years but every time I go like. I want to learn something new. I want to eventually no to cut appear amid shaped cheese properly. It's mostly people. It's people you what am I curious about? Oh, my gosh so much every year I. Try to take on a new curiosity because I don't know how long I'll get to be in the world. You know just like every year let's try a new thing. Last year was yoga this year I'm learning how to sew. And a two years ago was paper flowers. So. Just like dip into at I think that working outside of food also helps feed my creative work in. I think that. Breathing helps. Fuel. No there's there's there's no. There's something about just being out in the world being aware of what's around you. You find inspiration absolutely free world a quick non-related. Story. I did a book signing years and years ago with Pierce Air May. Paris pastry chef. We had written a book together and a woman came up and she had a little baby and peer smiling kind of chuck the baby under the Chin and said, what's the baby's name? And the mother said, Celeste and he said the beautiful name and then he took his notebook out and he wrote it down. And I said what are you gonNA do with it. He said I don't know it's just a very beautiful name. And about five years later, he created an entire pastry collection and called it Celeste. Oh. My God. So you never h- you know you never know where something is going to come from. Warren, idea will come from sometimes I see a color and it makes me think I can make a dessert from it. That's really beautiful can. Can I ask you about Paris can ask you about? I know you live in Paris also Connecticut also New York okay. Casual. Casual. What what parts of Paris do you find you bring back? American kitchens and what parts of like cooking in the states do you take back to Paris? So I probably do more cooking in Paris than I do anyplace else and I think it's because it's so easy to have people over. I don't know why nobody seems busy in Paris you. You you. You say hired like, know like going to the market tomorrow do you WanNa come for dinner and people say yes, in New York it's like. Could you go to the market in six weeks and invite. Takes too long so I. It's really ingredients that inspire me that make me think you know I've never know what I'm going to cook until I'm out there looking around I love to cook some American Food in France for my French friends so. I like to do like Burgers for a whole dinner and put out the put out different things that people can mix them. They never do the French would like my French friends would like me to either give them the food exactly as I want them to or they will just line it up. Very, very beautifully. So how often do you know some American things in Paris and have fun with that I used to bring back literally bring banking gradients don't need longer because everything is available but I sometimes feel the first week that I'm in Paris. I feel like my head is exploding I feel like there's something in the air that makes you have a trillion ideas. It's a spot for you. It's Yeah. That's exactly right that spot there is there was a connection is the first the first time I put my foot down on the sidewalk in Paris I thought. My mother had me in Brooklyn when she could have. Had me here. So rude. And Brooklyn was not hit groovy then. I feel that way about New Orleans and also in New Orleans people will come to dinner. They are busy they make time put did I want to ask you next? I want to talk about. I'll help you. Thank you. Tell me about your cooking school. I home. Right. Yeah. I do I. Have a I. have a cooking school. In New Orleans it's called the Bake House and it's a double shotgun. So half half of the House is my studio and it's a giant open kitchen where twelve people come. Three or four times a month to learn how to cook with me children ever children children. I. Don't know about them. I just. I knew about one. I knew about one don't know what they can do what they can't do. You know I just know adults. Yeah, but it's a really wonderful way to bring. You know my work my creative work on the Internet into real life, which is what I feel like we need. Real life is not way. I was GONNA say real life is not underrated, but it's real life is not overrated rate. Depends on what you're trying to say. We'll life is great. It's lonely out there in cyberspace. Sometimes I think we have kind of reached the peak of of what we can do only on the Internet. I sent but I really. Because I'm not a millennial because I'm not a native digital person because I started working. My husband just found my proposal for my my dissertation and it's on I missed that paper that kind of specialty onion skinny paper that I used to type my proposal on. But because because I'm essentially old. I'm excited by the Internet when when it arrived I couldn't believe they did there were all of these people out there that I could learn about the first time I saw somebody post a picture of something that they've made from one of my books. I started to cry I can call has been in. Because as a writer before the Internet you sat at home and you wrote and you didn't know who was out there. You just send your work out and every once in a while you would meet someone maybe who knew something about what you were doing you had no sense that. There was no way that the work came back to you that you could see the reaction and I have never stopped being excited about the Internet because I feel it does bring us together in a way where we can share what we know. We can learn from one another and I thought to see someone make that chocolate cake in two thousand and eight I was apart my blog I just started I was part of Tuesday's with Dory. You were Oh girl yes. Yeah and so every Tuesday, there were maybe fifty of us on the Internet. We would bake one of your recipes from your baking book and posted every Tuesday and it was such a beautiful way to have community on the Internet. I'm still in touch with a bunch of Tuesday's. So this was a group that was started by a woman whom I've never met in Pittsburgh she wrote to me and said I. Just got your cookbook I'd like to bake my way through two of my friends and we're going to blog just the three of us is that okay and there was this was two thousand seven and I didn't know what came in 'cause I didn't know what the Internet and I thought. This is really yeah this is great and I remember going to a conference a year later and having people say to me. Aren't you afraid it will hurt your book sales. Do you want your recipes all over the Internet. Do you want? And I thought Gee I do I do I want these people to be baking and and sharing what they know and? I think I was right. You were right I think I was right you're also very generous. No because I think it's just it doesn't. It's the opportunity. For peop-. Okay I'M GONNA. Do I have a second to preach? I'm just glad. Okay. Just tell you how I feel about baking case you don't know. I feel that baking his magic I feel that. This isn't. By felt it from the store that were transforming ingredients with our hands more. So than cooking I mean when you make a steak, you'd look at the state you cook it it looks like the state but with baking everything you do is a transformation magical changes with the same ingredients you can make a thousand things and you make with your hands and you make it to share with someone because even I don't make for myself it's. Meant to be shared and and there's a sense of satisfaction of having made something from start to finish yourself and so when I saw. People out in wherever Internet people are. You don't baking and writing about the fact that they hit made these recipes and talking about whether they serve them to their family or they took them to a potluck dinner or was part of church reception or a woman who sent me a picture that she hid made all of the the desserts for her brother's wedding. This was extraordinary. Share the magic with you. It's but I think this is what? Food. is about absolutely We only have a few minutes left and I really must get this piece of information from you. It's a question I like to ask. Anyone I can. So the question is what it's two parts. What is the best piece of advice you've ever received and what is the best piece of advice you've ever given? I think the best piece of advice air for gone and so fierce said it as well is the same piece of advice that I give okay and that's say yes even when you're terrified Always. worked. As a baker and you said, you. I worked as a Baker when I hadn't. got fired very quickly but. But I briefly worked is a bigger when I had no experience and all I had was the the desire. The I mean, this is what I wanted to do, and I mean even even going to that demo where I'm at Julia I was so scared but I knew I had to say yes and so yeah, it's the same piece of advice given an taken put. It's a making friends with the fear and pushing yourself and just so you don't feel alone I've also been fired. To Baker jobs. I was fired for. It took me it took me years to realize what how fabulous the reason that I was was at the caused whatever she said I was fired for was really a great thing I was fired for creative insubordination. Pretty. Great. It took me years. It took me your yeah. I changed the recipe and didn't tell anyone. You are perfect. Thank you Dorie. It's things. Sir. That's it. For today. Show I hope you enjoyed the conversation between Dory enjoy both women have amazing cookbooks. So be sure to check them out. Also. If you're looking for some grownup summer fun, check out camp joy on Joe the Baker Dot Com for activities, recipes and more. Thank you to Sonos move for supporting today show Radio Cherry Obama's edited by Cat Garelli. Our theme song is all fired up by the ban Challah. Radio Cherry bomb is produced by Cherry. Bomb media hanging there everybody, and thank you for listening. You're the bomb. I'll have what she's having. Hi My name is Rhonda Cameron and I'm the owner and creator of perfectly cordial here in Nashville. Tennessee. Do you want to know who I think is the bomb Kisha Hayes private chef and owner of sibbon. Bite here in Nashville. Tennessee. Kiesha is an apologetic advocate for women of color here in the Nashville Hospitality and beverage community, and that makes her the bomb.