Part 3: Chuck Simon
Chuck Simon Good Morning. Hello Steve Ooh we've got a wow that you got a real gravitas there on the Mike I like it. That's from the twenty four hours of not sleeping as someone who himself is a light sleeper sleeper and who has spent plenty of time particularly Louisville years ago with the Audubon Park House and I can tell you no matter what time I would wake up. Chuck was chuck was awake watching watching either sports or doing something on the internet or working on billing or I. I can't remember a time. Actually that I come out of whatever room. I was staying in or whatever couch. I was on the Haskins couch a- and you weren't you weren't awake. Yeah it's it's kind of a it's a talent and it's a curse at the same time well Blessings and curse is a good segue to our our first. I conversation here and really appreciate you doing this. And of course you know one thing. We should tell people if they haven't heard the specifics explain during your transition to a horsemen's management group and and what you know you're thinking is and and you know why for instance you made this move because you know you've got widespread respect of your fellow horsemen I and Owners but explain what prompted it. Well I it's a multifaceted thing thing that people probably aren't all that interested in but The opportunity came up to to serve the horsemen in a different capacity I was elected to the board of directors of the ATP A in in south Florida a few years ago. And I'll be honest. I never had that much interest in working You know of being on that because I I was Traveling a lot and I wasn't usually in one place for a year round capacity and the other was. I just didn't have the time in sometimes some horseman groups Deservedly so aren't exactly the they don't have the greatest reputations as being very efficient or being run very well so I was talked into doing here. I got on the board and I ah I kinda saw How the sausage is made a little bit from the other side? A lot of things that trainers owners don't realize The the work that is done by by many these boards and representatives and As such I I saw a lot of areas what I I think that I could help And to be honest with you one of the main reasons I wanted to do this with you. Is that I think that there is a huge issue and it's been an ongoing issue for years of people just not understanding what's going on and and not understanding the issues and I think from a backside issue is there's very little actual understanding of what's going on I've said this before. The that People WanNa compares to other sports. We're not like other sports. Sports reduced aren't Every player in the NBA makes a considerable amount of money. More than a normal American most trainers make nick. What a normal American would make or less? There's of course a few big name. Guys that make tremendous amounts of money that do extremely dreamily well are very successful. A very sharp guys and women But for the most part the average trainer is is a guy who works seven seven days a week gets up And his struggles to pays bills and we get labeled often as greedy and and this and that and and it just I just think that the the business. The industry of racing has done a tremendously poor job bob of a really relaying the actual story About just about everything I mean. Honestly from from almost every facet of this business is misunderstood. I mean better thought of as these scroungy guys that are that. Are you know smoking cigars. Betton you know their last two dollars you have Owners owners are are looked at as they're all Shaykh Muhammad Breeders are all are all more and it's just not so and we paint with with broad strokes a lot of times and we say well you know racing should do. Do this racing should do that. But but so much racing's regional and what would work at Belmont is not necessarily going to work at Charleston and and We we've got to this point where someone has to to be out there fighting for us because there's a lot of people fighting running against us and I understand that I respect the though the counter protesters than the people that have started. The we are horse racing and all those things. But that's not nearly enough because in the end information is what our our society thrives on and the amount of information that it's it's either incorrect or is severely biased about our sport and our participants. It is is great. I mean there is more misinformation than there is true information and a lot of our alphabet groups pretty much all of them. mm-hmm have failed. They failed to do their jobs. And what their job should be to do is in the end is promote horseracing promote promote the business promote the sport. And put it in the best light in an in doing so that also includes making the changes and paying attention and focusing on issues. That should have been focused on for a long time. We get lost the lot now. The the the theme now is safety. Safety Safety Safety Safety which is fine. No one's against safety but when you start interviewing track presidents Jason and People who were in charge of these these groups and they don't ever mention the betters or the product. It it says to me. Well we can make this game as safe as possible but it's not that's not going to bring in more money we need to. This is the business we we need to make. Sure that our product which is horse racing and betting on horse racing is is maintained and and his is made strong as possible. The safety initiatives are great. I mean they're long. A lot of MOS should have been instituted a long time ago. And I don't think you're GonNa have hardly anybody outside of the real curmudgeon that are against most of the changes. I mean the whip thing is kind of ludicrous but notwithstanding the there's just This now everything. Everything is safety. Everything Safety Safety Safety Safety and you know like that's important but let's not forget that we still have a lot of issues. The full crops are are shrinking. Which means we'll have less supply and Our our panel is is stagnant and we have areas of competition now with sports betting were our takeout is just ludicrously high and I mean these are issues. We don't have to worry about animal rights activists if people stopped betting our sport. Because we won't be around we don't need to be banned we'll just fade away a couple of things out of that and I that that's almost like a mission kind of a mission statement that that the the the focus from every perspective I should be putting on the best product possible at the most advantageous price meaning the an effective takeout rate a a- as they say optimal takeout which has never fully been established is so difficult to test. I mean if we use that as the baseline of of the mission pretty much everything else you know when it comes to the day to day racing side If that was the focus and if we had a common if we have a common goal is an industry that would make things a lot easier to you know to get to you as always because there's so many different I don't WanNa say self interest because that that you know that the instantly is negative but there's so many focused hist interests that you know the various entities that comprise the business as a whole and we're going to try tried to address each of those components in in these discussions. Let's focus on the trainer and the trainer's business the the trainer as an entity jock and there's several areas that have really weakened the the business as a whole Oh and the competitive balance that contributes to the quality of the product. I mean the the fact that we've got a concentration of talent went into few hands is problematic. And it's created this scenario where we see favorites winning at a higher and higher percentage percentage. We have a lot of racing. That's uncompetitive for that reason. And that's that's a difficulty. You talk about trainers Rayner's making a living you know we've got Really the eighty twenty rule going here twenty percent probably of of the horseman probably even less. It's probably more like ten percent controlling probably eighty to eighty five percent of the of the quality horses. I mean talk about the business business pressures that are are creating a strain and contributing to that competitive imbalance. I think that that goes goes back to the theme of Renault like other sports in other sports. You know what James Harden makes. It's it's public information you. We know what the last guy on the bench makes and it's a lot it's also compared to normal people. It's a lot even the the guys who who aren't the stars are making huge livings in this business we have. There's no way of actually telling how much person quote unquote makes. Because we don't have We're we're not. We're not paid salaries. I mean. We're all independent contractors essentially and We have different overheads and again again. It depends on where your your training you might be able to train a horse for sixty bucks at some of the smaller tracks that you just absolutely positively could could not get that done at a bigger track and if you are you're skimping on something there's something that's not Not Getting paid for it and one one trend. That's that's become prevalent Since I started training in one thousand nine thousand nine and more and more and more is owners. There's doing deals with trainers The amount of trainers that are on deals or heavy percentage of horse on deals is a it would probably be a staggering number If a lot of guys don't WanNa admit it You know like nobody likes to admit that their training for free especially if You know you have owners that are paying the bills and they're gonNA say well you know why. Why am I paying a a day rate when the guy in the barn and are the slow next to me? He's not you're you're you're not doing that for him. And in a deal basically is a a trainer will Pick up the costs of the Horse depending on you know there's always different types of deal. Some some deals that train will pick up all the costs costs including the veterinary costs and the blacksmith. And and they'll get a greater percentage of The horses revenue. But it's it's it's a bad deal in a lot of trainers aren't really good at math. And they haven't figured out that it when you're paying a hundred percent of the bills for maybe fifty percent of of the revenue of A horse and when most horses aren't actually producing a profit on a yearly basis You know the the the eight ball put behind is is great So you have this element of trainers doing deals and people say well you know they're stupid and they shouldn't do it and this and that well it's true but you have a desperation sometimes for for guys where the stalls yes stalls. Volt keep stole an empty stalls not gonNA pay the rent it chuck and I and I uh getting feedback already explained flesh out what the deal means and and it might be easiest to explain and the basic structure of billing and the the flow of money back and forth from owner to train her to to purse money to owner and trainer right In general of the general business model is that you train a of a Horse said individual vigil horse for a daily rate and again depending on the trainer the rate may include other things Some it's an all inclusive some bull bill extra extra for for a quick mentor or things you know the electrolytes it depends and everybody's got a different thing but for the most part the owner pays as the bills of the owner pay the day rate. The owner pays for the blacksmith. The owner pays for any dental. Any extras The trainer generally get ten percent across the board again. Different people have different deals I always charge twelve percent. I two percent was a bonuses for the help You know like I said. But that's the general gist of it when you WANNA deal Gal Call you up. He'll say I have a horse for you. I'd like you to train the Horse Course and But I you know I. I'd like to work on a deal. Essentially saying I want you to pay the costs and I'll give you half of the revenue The problem with those are just as you put. The trainer doesn't have the revenue coming in and the only way he's going going to produce revenue is that the horse is going to earn it and that creates issues of integrity in create. It puts more pressure on on the trainer to earn. It puts more pressure on the train or to get that horse to the races. And in some ways it gets it increases Trainers trainers desire to get rid of a horse in some ways in that they wanNA stop the bleeding on horse so they'll may be running for a cheaper claiming price or you know. Will you the gray area that we all deal in. Because there's no such thing as sound or unsound all horses have some sort of unsoundness. You could be unsound tomorrow so if you step on a rock dislike us you wake up in the morning met you. Maybe you slept a little funny. Horses are living beings. They have the same issues that sound. This is not a black and white issue and there's a gray area of all always that you have to deal with when you're training horses in that is your horse why why are they Seemingly ninety percent today is there something. Wrong what densify is this. A WHO official or the ankle or is there pressure is or heat. Is there something like or is the horse just Having Muscle cramps or is the horse hydrated. Them there's a thousand things that can be can be bothering him and a lot of times two days later everything is fine. Maybe the kicked the wall. Maybe they have a little bruise. Maybe there's a lot. What a little things? But when you have a trainer and he's not getting paid he doesn't have a check coming at the at the end of the month. That's it's a bad deal it's bad deal in. It's a bad deal for the horses. This'll this'll all come into some of the components but instead will discuss because I wanted to do some trainer business and then horse management. which is you know? He had been glove with with the business side. Typical Day rate seventy five to one hundred and thirty it. Ah It depends. It's it's it's something that trainers. Don't actively Advertise their day rape and honestly in some cases cases. They don't do that because there might be different rates within the same barn You know he might say hey. This guy's got a couple of horses I'll give you you know I'll do it for eighty day instead of ninety day. If you send me that horse it's business. I mean this. You know that that's how it goes but I think seventy five is hi Steve. I think that there's people out there training I know and South Florida. There's guys training in the sixties I would say Tampa there might be guys in the fifties the the number I mean if there was an average what would we. What would we say that in this era right now now that without without added expense without the ferrier without incidental supplement without That work it got an average has got to be eighty five eighty five now. I would say it's lower. I would lower lower. I mean I'm used to talk your but you're talking about right. You're talking about an average across the country yes Y- The these guys at at some of the Mid West wrecks. They're not getting as much and some of these other smaller tracks. JUST NOT GETTING I. It's hard to get up with the national average. I would say that I would say in south Florida. The average is probably seventy dollars interesting. Okay okay what about training centers. Private training centers depends. It all depends if you're fair hill. Will your trainer's not going to be poor if he's at fair hill because he has to own rental rented a barn so it. It's all dependent on on the region. I think in California Probably it's over a hundred but you know you have the different different costs like in in south Florida for instance. Hey is is extremely expensive because it it costs so much to ship it here. We had a load of hey come mignon day. Echoes fifty four hundred dollars for for four hundred twenty bales. A hey the to come in from from the west coast so you know because of the are Are we're not in proximity of word of producers are are some of our costs are are more expensive than someone who would be in the mid west to were were they wouldn't have those You know the residual chipping in other cost. Think they could shop around and can get better prices. So it's it's a it's a it varies wildly in in in like it. Just this is really dependent on the circuit that you're at a and it's a matter of you know for trainers that are in demand. It's what they can get but the thing is that nowadays the majority trainers aren't quote unquote in demand. And you're almost at a situation where you're taking which you can get. And that's one of the issues that the super trainer created was that a lot guys don't even have one really good owner and and they don't even have second-string horses from a guy from from A. B. Outfit and that hurt because that's those be level Thursday Friday kind of trainers that that have those. It was middle of the road horses. Those guys are those guys like me. We we kind of went works. Thank you have super outfits and you have you have small outfits. Dan and It's it's very very tough to be in the middle and and that was one of the biggest mistakes that I made. When I first started out training was that I never wanted to have one hundred twenty five horses hundred fifty horses but I should have and I should've taken them when I when I I could've because trying to stay in the forty to fifty range which to me was a reasonable amount of money? Excuse me reason. Mount of horses to to monitor. I mean that's a Lotta horses fifty horses to look at fifty horses lot. Even if you're split up into divisions it it's a lot but It's hard to stay in that thirty. Forty range beat. You lose it owner lose to owners. I had a couple of people die and it's harder to replace them when the foal crop was forty thousand. There's a lot more available than when the phone crop is twenty thousand and If I could have done things differently differently when I was just started out and I was winning a lot of racism that I was running on the big circuits I had offers and I actually. I turned some people down and some of them were because you know they were questionable Paying or they had questionable ethics but the way the game aim is set up. Now you have to get as many horses as you can. Because if you don't you you will eventually suffer the pressures that that are created under the scenario and in addition to the deal one of the other problems problems for that segment of outfit is also slow. Pay and you're getting getting paid And this actually you know certainly goes beyond just the small outfits to I mean. There's there's been some high profile names that are associated with it. But I I mean thirty days. Sixty nine hundred and twenty days is not unusual and certainly certainly the suppliers the whether the TAT companies in the feed companies they they do their best to help the horsemen but this is an issue that is really under discussed it. It is because it's not things it's not something you want to put Your Business on the street n and I know Rodriguez had a situation and it wound up on the street street and it got resolved in however shape or form. But I mean. We're talking serious money. I mean Mr Ramsey told me one time you'll be close to three hundred thousand dollars uh-huh that that's a hard hole to dig out of and I said to him one day I said Mr empty not for nothing. But what if you God forbid passed away in you so you basically bankrupt me and I'm doing really well. You know. A big portion of that three hundred was was trainer percentages and I it. It is an an issue and I I mean let's not act like there aren't a lot of people that are great that pay on time that pay fast that understand understand your needs That understand the faster. You pay the less pressure. The trainer feels to worry about financial issues the more time they can spend on their horses but there are people that don't that don't th they do a string out and it's it's it's difficult and I and the vendors are as a vendor now I understand the issues a little clearer but you you are probably more apt to to give a guy a little less leeway than they used to the truth matters. I'll be blunt the reason that the the Gulfstream Horsemen's purchasing association exists is because dissatisfaction with the two other vendors down here that that virtually had a monopoly on the business we are a response to them And the service that we were getting in the treatment that we were getting that's why we exist and the fact that a matter is just to delve into that for one second is that horsemen are going to have to learn that we have got to do a lot of Things for ourselves and this is this is the start we're going to have have to promote this business ourself because the tracks aren't GonNa do it. They promote casino night. They promote stupid stuff but the promotion of horse racing. Especially now that there's some negative connotation because of these you know these the activists They're less apt to say. Hey you know we're GONNA put money into promoting horseracing horseracing is just It's just something they have to have an in so many ways in. It's just the reality is education and we can be mad at Churchill. Downs for them screwing Arlington. Because that's what they did. Did they screwed Arlington one million percent but the fact that a matter is that it's it's it's their track and it's their re it's our reality and we have to deal with it and we have to learn to promote and to to try to put the best foot forward and also to clean up our act and not accept people doing things that aren't proper and that's part of the reason I thought having this form is discussion letting people inquire about things letting them know that. Oh you know Bob Baffert and Peter Miller got to you know high beauts okay great It's not a big deal and it's against the rules and I'll be fine but the fact that matter is often the rules have been changed and the horses are actually have less than their system now than ever have synth anyone. That's listening has been alive. They have less than their systems now than they did period. But no one's out there saying all right. This has happened. That may explain why it happened and let me explain. Actually the the connotations of its no my God you know. Oh God horses if they have more this than they could break down and Blah Blah Blah. Well it just like at the Drug Ed when you watch on TV and the last ten seconds and the guy talks real fast in rare cases causes blindness and death right. I mean that that's what we have now on social media. I had someone yesterday. They before they were criticizing. A horsing horse should be given time I am off because they had been given antibiotics and I and my first thought was like well if you if you have a little cold and you'll get Z pack. Does your boss give you a month off. No that's that's ridiculous. No one would would say that but because people aren't that familiar with the Term Jensen I. It's actually about the lowest US grade antibiotic that there is It sounds menacing. All the source got Denison five days in a row all you know I got a lung infection section. It happens horses live outside. They live in the dust. It's not like the end of the world but that's the thing is is that no one's out there saying what this is is this a serious issue is not a serious issue. And I'm not gonNA say that like every drug positives no big deal because a lot of them are big deals yes and a lot of them are are there there is no excuse And the rules are changing and this is the thing. Is that the rules change a lot of times faster then then we can react to it. A lot of people don't understand. They think that we get this rule book when you get your trains lights and say okay. This is what you can do. This does does this. That's not true. That's not true. I it's it's it's not true I mean a lot of ways it's guesswork especially when we're talking talking tonight about the medication and believing I'm not against having one regulatory body for the US if it wasn't effective one that's the problem is what they have now is an ineffective is is thirty six ineffective ones. And then you're gonNA have one great big giant ineffective one. That's not gonNA help. That's not going to help chuck on I. There's a direction I I could take Here I I actually actually I guess we could. We hit a couple of the the trainer business issues and and there's plenty more discuss including including personnel and and the challenge of of personnel the challenge of government overregulation and I actually went over this a couple of weeks ago with Joe Appelbaum given the situation in New York where social media has They've taken to treating the horsemen pinatas Because they think they're they're cheating their help the which they're not the the the over-dramatisation of what's transpiring there. But you oh you did say something that that can more fin To the the Horse Management Side added things from from the trainers perspective and the environment that we're dealing with and there's something that with the end of the Gulfstream West the calder season ending. Last Sunday and del Mar wrapping up this week. And of course anthony the head of that. There's something remarkable that I should really be fleshed out. And that is the the difficulty and the randomness of of injury and fatality On the racetrack back with with horses. That haven't necessarily presented you know any discernible issue and you circumstance at at at Santa Anita where a team of thirty vets and all of these groups that of of ooh epidemiologists essentially analyzing and looking for vulnerabilities and checking horses after every galloping and so forth and pre-race examinations and and you still had at the highest level a horse injured injured and euthanized. You just finished a stint at Gulfstream West where the racetrack is torn up the shreds the turf courses a mess The the main track is not what it used to be There's not nearly the the same examination going on pre race exams. I mean they're they're being monitored but not to the level that we saw we're seeing California and yet they were table to go through a a a meet at at Gulfstream West without an incident without a without a fatality. You know I said something to you a couple of weeks back about about about. What is our goal in terms of? What is the quote unquote quote acceptable level of horses? Getting breaking down because zero is impossible as if we could be at zero. If if we could stop living things from dying racehorses would not be first on the list of things to to to to stop you know it's using death or lack of thereof as a marketing tool is. It's it's insanely stupid. There was a track and I'm not going to say that the the track but you can probably figure out the change surfaces fifteen years ago and the first year ahead issues their tracks stunk. It was a bad track And when they went to the new surface surface they had a dramatic decrease in in an injuries and breakdowns. Well they came out and it was one of it was kind of a a preview of what we have now of You know the meat preview was for the next year with you. Know we had so few breakdowns last year and Blah Blah Blah. We only had five five unfortun- horses and this and that and I said to the guy ran the Said do you really want to bring bring that up as as your Your key feature because you have no control over over how many ago it's a totally different population. The weather conditions nations are Gonna be different and you and you make double doing the same exact thing Well what the NAP the next year they had you know like double or triple the amount that they had the first year. So how do you explain. Well everything we did work great last year but it didn't work so great this year and I. It's not that you know you. Donna have some sort of transparency but a lot of what goes on random. It's not as though any protocols can stop every horse from having something Something wrong and you know we have had You talk about horses being fatally injured because they have you know broke break their legs but could be fatally injured in other ways as well as they could clip heels and fall down and break their neck in. You're not gonNA have the the animal rights people say a halt. It was an accident. You know no big deal we will give you a pass on that one. I mean those count to and it's just a it's great. That Gulfstream Park West was able to come mount with with no fatalities. You know poor or human Based upon you know the neighborhood but you you Like you said the the the people did a good job and they did a good obviously did a good job Alexandrina horses and I know for a fact that there are taking a closer look. They're they're. They're being much more vigilant about who's allowed to run WHO's not allowed to run But by the same token they got lucky in that there wasn't a single horse that had something maybe a hairline airline fractured. That just is not going to be picked up. I mean there's a famous horse. The few years ago they'd want a classic race that the assistant instant of the exercise rider had been telling the trainer. You know she just doesn't quite feel hundred percent and the source was sent to two biggest clinics in America and they couldn't find anything wrong with her and they wound up running the horse again because she was given a clean bill of health and she said she's not lame she just she just you know she. She's ninety five percent and a horse. That's that's above that level. It should be a hundred percent and they ran the horse and the Horse got beat at one two nine and came out of the race with a with a fracture fracture of a pastor in which is a tough tough area to to actually a diagnosis. So it just shows you that even when my. Here's here's one of the most valuable horses in America that they sent to the two biggest clinics in America looking for an issue and they still. I couldn't find it so to ask an examining veterinarian. who gets maybe a two minute? Look at a horse and two minutes is a lot it's it's it's going to be the things are always going to slip through. And that's the unfortunate part. Is that you know. It takes a long time to x-ray horse it takes a long time to scan them. It's not as though you can do that in five minutes if you have a hundred horses racing racing one day of course I guess nowadays. We barely one hundred horse racing but say an eighty horses racing the day to do x rays. Scans on eighty horses would take a week. And that's just for one card and that's if they worked all day doing it and it's it's a it's great when they have no no issues but as seen by the DEL. Mar The SANITA to Delmar back to Santa Anita issue where you have virtually the same horses verses the same horseman And the same protocols and one track was able to get through without any fatalities in the afternoon noon and the other track isn't so it just goes to show you at some point. It's not just what they're doing. It's it's just a some of the underlying issues that we can't measure Attract safety we can't put stick a thermometer in and say okay. Track is a a little safer. Today are a little less safe today. Because they're outside in dirt in and it's all the factors that are involved and and it's constant. It's a constant change. It's an etch a sketch on a on a daily basis the Chuck Chuck Simon with us and the first of of what will be ongoing conversations and we want questions to answer and want people to understand every aspect that that we can broach and today we wanted to start with trainers. We got a couple of business issues the then I wanted to move toward horse management management. which is what we're touching on? We've got about five minutes. Chuck Chuck explain and I can always do it with Dr all day in terms of of pre race and and whether it's a practitioner racetrack practitioner or or a regulatory vet state pet. But I explain the shed row process and on a daily basis and on a race day you know how the how a trainer and the groom and and the form and how they interact and how they're monitoring horse and the if there is potential That the horse may need scratch and and you know separately as part of this. We should also talk about having to deal with the racing office and explain to them. WanNa take a horse out. Honestly Steve We. We should save. Save that for next week is it's it's it's bigger than five minutes. Yeah a lot a lot bigger. What would I do want people to do is ask questions and get a hold of Steve Lever even us on twitter facebook or whatever and it's hard for me to answer a question on twitter or even make a point because you have a a limited space and even sometimes writing it? It just doesn't come out you can't explain how quite quite as much but but There's so many things that are just so misunderstood in listen. Not everyone's going to agree with everything I say they might say. Oh you know what. You're you're biased. You're training 'cause I hear that all the time and you know you you're biased towards horsemen and horseman wasn't the most horsemen hate. Each other business except accepted ever. Is there like when a guy goes on a streak and he wins. Eleven out of thirteen. You guys aren't complaining. Nearly as much as the trainers Are Complaining you guys. Don't see it you don't see it but you any any guy any person in contract management. That'll tell you the truth. And when there is a guy or two guys and their win and everything how many people complain they call up. They send emails they bitched only complain. It happens believe me. This is not like one. Big Happy Family is a cutthroat business. GotTa stab each each other in the back that to to get horses and to You know to to money business anytime. There's there's monning money involved called and it's a competitive business too. I mean there's eagles involved the amazing eagles I try to tell guys and listen. You're ain't nobody. A Horse trainer. The biggest horse trainer in America outside of Baffert. Nobody's getting recognized in the mall. You know the the guy. Who's the eleventh man? On the heat. He walks in the center a mall and he gets four hundred people chasing him right. I mean that's just you know. Remember the the you know. Earn a sport that we're Athletes the horses are the athletes. If you if you brought your five climate to the mall. He'd get that he'd he'd get he'd get mobbed too but the the trainer you know we're just registered trainers there's and most jockeys through this little people you know I mean there's not a whole lot of the jockeys aren't going to be able to go to too many places and be recognized. This isn't nineteen fifty fifty anymore. I know we we got to say. Hey you know we're not exactly high high profile but the fact that a matter is that that they're all all everything that you guys complain about twitter regarding trainers and former versus. There's nobody to complaints. Listen I I I deal with a lot of trainers now and nobody complains more than trainers they complain about everything. To brand of shavings. I Sell One guy tells me this one's great the other guy tells me others great and and you can't switch them so like half. The people like one thing half the people like the other thing but Believe me there's much more complaining about About those those the magicians than people really really understand. But as part of that one thing that you can make this a Saint Chuck Simon with us as we talk industry issues and we're gonNA broaches as many as people wanNA move. Bring up out of curiosity the you have a snapshot answer because people ask why. Why is there not more war Reporting a of Potential issues that that people are aware of Observing or otherwise. Why they I think the general public thinks that there's a code of silence on the backstretch stretch? Honestly I think people less me questions. I answer them but the you know we have. Virtually we know unbiased media by unbiased I mean people that aren't working for the track Those are PR people are not. They're not actual. You know I mean I mean. I'm not criticizing horsemen horsemen shock. I mean you know why people think that at some point horsemen would get frustrated or disgusted with with people that that that that others that the public seems to Think are are are taking it edge and the thing is what he wants Ado beat them up. I mean what can we do. We complain you complain to management. Maybe people you know complained to the commission but in the end like and what what what could what could what recourse is there. I mean you know we we could like I. I don't know it's hard it's hard it's hard to really You know it's like saying like you know. The Guy robbed a convenience store and you were in the back well. Why didn't you stop it? I mean we're not police you know we're not regulators and we're not track management and you're taking care of your or that's remember one thing thing that when I complain about the guy in the bar next door the first thing the guy in bar next door is going to tell the management when they say something. He's just jealous. Mind that sometimes it is. Sometimes that's the case jock. This was a good start and We'll we'll hit more. We'll hit every area that we can think of frontside backside The the key is really a couple of different things. The best bedding product at the best price and you know essentially doing the right thing being a good steward in whatever area of the sports you participate chuck is on twitter of course as cannon Shell and we're back tomorrow we'll do another hour this and then we'll start to get into a weekly routine. I want to thank shook mcgahey. Always a treat Andy Sterling Michael McCarthy m WM racing. They WanNa follow Michael Michael and Chuck. We'll find we'll get back to sit him tomorrow. I don't know if Sid Fernandez back tomorrow or see still traveling we'll see. Hey we're back tomorrow one way or the other replay tomorrow sixty nine here at siriusxm joy the day good luck. If you're playing talking in the morning saw eh killer.