Tracey Schoettlin


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It's free with most insurance plans in starts at fifteen dollars. A month without insurance wins a better way to give birth control is finally here so the annual prescription is usually twenty dollars but my listeners can try simple health for free just go to simple health dot dot com slash degree and use code degree at checkout again that simple health dot com slash degree and enter code degree at checkout to try it for free warning. This episode sewed contains graphic descriptions violence. Listener discretion is advised plus degree post degree post. I Agree I agree supposed to happen in movies is not and so for mine mine. I used to think well that that you know whoever dumped her body was probably in those woods and follow us and is now gonNA combined us so in my mind that meant that we had Johnson upset the killer. Hey guys welcome to the first degree. The true crime podcast that you might end up on my name is Jack Vanik. I'm sitting across from Alexis linkletter and next to Billy Johnson and billy. I did want to bring up the fact act that I started reading your buck. You did and I feel proud. How far did you get the bear brooks murderer to the when the body the is in barrels or whatever it's called you know about my childhood right now I do and I was telling Alexis earlier that you are such a beautiful writer and especially when you talk about your dad it's so sweet and like such a wonderful job? Thank you so much and I really enjoy a lot. Thank you yeah it. Meet Your Dad now now. I know he seems like a great guy but it's you. I'm really excited to read the rest of it. I am doing it for. We have a book club podcast. The leading network called the stacks and I recommended that we read the book for that that's awesome yeah so if anybody else's reading Billy's book and wants to have a little chat about it. I'll be talking talking about it on the stats coming up so it's kind of exciting. Thank you so much Ali's emotional well. We're also frigging busy. I haven't read a book in years so it was about time and you know what I'm GonNa. Start Reading audiobooks or listening to audio books 'cause it's basically like listening to a podcast but then you feel smarter because you said you've read a bum. You can say you wrote a book with that. Absolutely oh my gosh. It's a life hack seems better the honestly though if I was listening to Billion Liam the audio book I would be so distracted well. It is kind of funny because I should talk back to him like yeah. Shut the the bill. You sound like a committee. It'd be like but really exactly we wow. Billy's brain is fascinating but because it's his voice it it is very troubling is a very interesting to it at one and a half speed then it'll sound like Oh. Do you talk to slow no but it won't sound like me. It'll sound like somebody that is me but on so I didn't talk about it last episode but we are still doing our competition to win some free first degree Merch by giving us a five star review on the apple podcast APP so when you do it leave your instagram. We'll be picking two week and you can pick got whatever you want for the march for whatever you want not just like Oh. We've got these three things cast expense. That's true so what's today belly. It's National Comic Book Day New. You'RE GONNA pick that line new. I would pick that one. LemMe ask you ladies. What was your a favorite comic book? Growing up never comic book in my life ever know what would I read. Wonder woman was mine. Did you read one about woman or woman. I do yeah well. I I was making a facial expression where it was obvious to look at Rita Comic Book. I'M GONNA I'm GonNa give you guys some comic books. It's also thank you I'm decluttering. It's also national lobster day frame that interests me to lobster lobster. My favorite food lobster is one of my servant turf or a seafood tower my favorite foods more. I just felt like a good lobster lobster roll lobster rolls amazing being a lobster Sushi she lobster handroll from sugar fascist okay but it's also national one hit wonder day you want to know my one hit. Wonders Story Hammer can't touch this. No No. He's not a one. How many did he have name another one? He's also broke clean another one. He can't wonder you wonder though the atmosphere on that's not his. Do you want to get the fable yeah. He did the Hammer. You're wrote the atoms original Adam's family song for the movie now Ya know doesn't count okay. Can I tell you my one hit wonder story yeah yeah. I use to hook up with one of two twins that used to be it sucks. When you work with one of your besties he was in the night and ninety s back? She's like I think he's too old for me. He can't sit up straight. I'm like what why one over at his house one day the right said Fred what I'm too sexy was it that no no it was Evan and Jaron. They tested you're just the girl again. I don't know musical alternative like pop song but it was a one one that was popular song so yeah at least one heard that Delilah plain white t's aw come to our House Pink House Demar and the guy from a lot of take a look at my girlfriend. Oh Orlando Gym Class Heroes. Yes yes to come over to look at but that was not that tickled my girlfriend thing. That's from supertramp yeah that they sampled it for good yeah. They regret anyways all right well. That's enough of that so let's turn down the lights and turn up your anxiety because this could be today's case takes us to Birmingham Alabama. The heart of the deep South Birmingham's official L. Website describes the city as nestled at the foot hills of the Appalachian Mountains at the Cross section of two major railroads. The city was once the primary industrial center of the southern United States at the height of the nation's manufacturing age. The city grew so fast and population it was maybe ironically maybe not so ironically called based on today's case the magic city the Kabul River is the longest free flowing river in Alabama one of the most biologically diverse in the US and considered by many to be the most scenic rivers in the country at the time this area area was serene remote quiet and isolated in July of Nineteen eighty-six a fourteen year old named Elizabeth was running track practice and she and two of her teammates mates were running down a remote road intercepted the river in July of nineteen eighty six me and two friends of mine from Briar Wood or running summer number track with Mountain Brook mountain broke the public school and we are running track with them for the summer to get ready for cross country Ninth Grade Cross Cross country and the fall and it was a run anywhere you want your free run day so we were running through the neighborhoods of mountain brook not broke of various suburb of Birmingham. Nothing really bad quote unquote ever happens there at least that you he would say we're just running with abandoned. You know not care and we're just having a good time. We're singing the Moody Blues on what They WanNa talk in your wildest dreams at the top of our loan method got to the very end of the big hill that goes up to the high school we came across the bridge as the teenage girls ran across the bridge something compelled Elizabeth to stop and look over the railing at the riverbank below at that time it was totally remote area the bridge had woods surrounding it so we decided to walk across crossed the bridge and on both sides of the bridge is a little a little walkway so we stuck over on the side of the walkway and just randomly looked over the bridge and what she saw was beyond her comprehension and it we change her life forever and down at the bottom of rocks that was just a rocky bed. There was not any water there was a woman laying there and she was spreading g go her legs were apart she he had blood on her and she's blond hair and it was it was kind of back and island member just looking at her and thinking game wow. Why is there manneken lying there on those rocks catch on it? It just doesn't make any sense to me and I my mind. Just I kept trying to make sense on what was going on because that's what your mind doesn't a tragic situation and that's what kept coming up with must be praying football a prank or something they started Manica Flood I was frozen and that while I couldn't believe my friends at some point did start moving then they came back and got me they ran for help that we ran up the hill that goes towards the high school way not on the first house. No one answered the second half we were knocking on and actually the lady drove up at the same time that we were knocking and for some reason she did not believe us and and she said well she was gonNA have to check it out herself. That was probably a mistake. She wished she had not made the police swarmed the area. Within minutes in news trucks weren't far behind them and responding officers ran through the potential scenarios from the bridge when they were looking down observing this spotty beneath the bridge. Could this be a suicide. Could this have been an accident but once police got closer to the victim. It was clear that this was no suicide. This was no accident she had multiple sharp force injuries and her body had been terribly terribly mutilated she was nude except except for some tattered knee high pantyhose and they could tell that she had been there for less than twenty four hours based on the condition of the body and one other thing they could glean with their naked. I was the fact that she ran for her life before she was murdered. The pantyhose that she had on for shredded on the bottom autumn her feet Cranchi and was like not it's not like it is now where things are like taped off immediately. It was kind of a lack a lacks crime. I've seen at the very beginning 'cause we're just sitting in the middle of it and at one point I'm the one that was sitting on the curb and let down down into the hey. There's a trail of blood right here. Elizabeth pointed out to the police that there were sneers of blood on the bridge they instantly theorized that she had been thrown over by whomever had killed her as the news trucks continued to arrive on the scene. Murmurs of the victim's identity could be heard. One of the reporters arrived. She was absolutely horrified to realize that she recognizes victim. She was a beautiful blonde. Twenty six sure old at named at Tracy Shetland Tracy had actually interned at the reporting news station years before when she was in college and Tracy's Tracey's family didn't know about the murder yet but they knew something was wrong because Tracy hadn't come home from work the night before and they were worried sick as to why and they were trying to track her down Tracy was always on time she was extremely responsible and she would never just leave or disappear without without any sort of explanation and there's no doubt the Tracy's family was devastated upon receiving the horrific news. The police learned learned that Tracy was extremely ambitious was about to enter into law school in dreamed of becoming a lawyer. She was so determined that she taken the L. Sat multiple times so she could get in. She was a type person who strived for perfection. Her long-term goals included graduating from law school and working with people who are underprivileged reached she had been saving up for things she needed for law school by waitressing at the South Point American cafe and that's where she had vanished from the night before tracey's body body was taken in for autopsy and it was conducted the day after her body was found on July fifteenth the corner found no presence of alcohol or drugs in the identified three stab wounds to the upper lobe of the left lung one stab wound through the heart five stab wounds through the lever to stab wounds into the stomach area the stab wound to the heart area was found to be three and a half inches deep would have caused death and less than one minute over here at the first screw we love clean brands and I'm super excited to introduce to you guys one of our new sponsors ren clean skin-care they believe in being cleaned cleaned skin and also clean to the planet and they know that what goes on your body is key so the only choose bioactive benefit skin health and ingredients that protect the efficacy AC- of the formula and make their products a pleasure to use the result is clean safe skin-care with no toxins no harsher controversial chemicals and no potential Ashley ear tents ever. It's perfect for people like me that have super irritable skin and it's not enough to just offer clean products. They need to be cleaned the planet and have pledged to zero waste by two thousand twenty one. It's amazing and they've updated their cult favorite perfect canvas clean primer and I never realized that I needed a primer until I I started using this one so if you guys want to check out Ren cleaned skincare and get twenty percents off all full size items including perfect canvas go to USA dot Ren Skincare Dot Dot com and use our code I again that's USA DOT Aryan Skin Care Dot com and use our promo code. I for twenty percent off there was a defense type wound to her middle finger where attendant was cut and there were several anti mortem head injuries including Bruce Lips and eyelids a chain abrasion fingernail marks and an indication of running being injuries member. We talked about that with her pantyhose. Yeah there were three stab wounds to the neck that were found to be consistent with wounds inflicted by dull pocket knife or a letter opener there was ante mortem bruising to the left nipple consistent with pinching as well as ante mortem impact abrasions. We're talking about a total of nineteen stab wounds fourteen of which were located between the left breast and the left abdomen abdomen so that would indicate potentially just looking at this over count overkill but also write a righty. Oh there was a bruce to the right thigh and a rip which extended upward from the rectum and vagina into the pelvic area and this latter injury jury consisted of a vaginal hair and massive blunt force trauma to the area and both of these were also anti mortem injuries and Ante T. mortem means. You're still alive when it happens. They concluded that Tracy had been dead at least eight hours prior to the discovery of her body and the day after Tracy's autopsy she was buried at Elmwood cemetery and Birmingham. There were hundreds of people who attended the funeral and a lot of them more strangers who simply wanted to comfort Tracy's family after hearing the horrific details of her murder there was an outpouring of support support from the community but with that comes an incredible amount and outpouring of media coverage because things like this. Let's just didn't happen in Birmingham Alabama. This is not just another typical homicide. Panic started sweep through the streets when people learned learned of the manner in which Tracy was killed. It's something that was like a punch in the gut to everyone in the community who would do this and why I mean we're dealing with an incredible amount of fear because it wasn't just she was stabbed until she was dead. There was a time of mutilation it it seemed driven van by something sadistic and scary and you know this is a wholesome Bible Belt community. They just did not know what to think about thefts and Elizabeth was experiencing the effects of what she had seen in witnessed so after finding Tracey's buddy. I started to have nightmares for we you know I'm not there at the time decided it was time to have me read the Ted Bundy Book. I'm a little bit sometimes. It gets as maybe not the sound is fine too. thought that would be like that way to you know really helped help me understand what was going on out in the world and so I immediately though started you know participate have flashbacks the image of the body and it would come over and over and over and it was not not not pleasant at all. I didn't really understand what was going on. then I would like I said wake up screaming. I was terrified so police start their investigation and they're trying to first piece together Tracy's movements from the night she went missing. She told her co workers that she was exhausted and she was going right home. She left she walked towards the post office. which is a block away where she had parked nineteen seventy-three any three black Chevy monte-carlo so they figured out that Tracy probably made it to her car so she must have encountered something between tween where she was parked and her house and they went through her inner circle the men she dated friends family? They got nothing. All they learned was that Tracy was beloved. She had no enemies. She wasn't involved in anything nefarious. Every road that they went down was a dead end in her murder was really starting to look like some type of random encounter so the scene Mar Tracy was found was processed for evidence and they concluded that this place at the bottom of the bridge was not where she had been killed so this was not a crime scene instead instead it was a dump site. It was also nineteen eighty-six which meant that. DNA was in its infancy. There is not much that they could find that was really that helpful role and no DNA evidence was found her clothes were gone. There were no footprints. There was blood on the bridge that suggested that her body had been thrown to the bottom but that's that's it however there was one speck of evidence that was found on Tracy's body and that was a single piece of reddish glitter that I was found on her knee and glitters pretty obscure they had no idea what to do with this or how to really use it to find the person who had killed her. I I think what also made it even more horrific as as detail started her vagina has been gutted she'd they had been stabbed either seventeen or nineteen times her breasts had been like at a little bit and and you could see that from the bridge and then there was the politically they found on hers have been came and the community a hysteria of this is so witchcraft thing because in the eighties growing up everything was all about dungeons and dragons and serial killing. Are We have a dragon which murder going on but there would be one more significant piece of evidence that would come up a woman named Lilli Daniels she had read about the victims of murder and was walking to a store on the city's north side when she found the victims partially we burn driver's license on the ground and she immediately called the police and the police came and got it and the cops spoke to her parents parents and learned that Tracy always kept her license on her in her pocket. Instead of intersperse police decide to hold back this info so they didn't release at least this to the media so the public caught wind of some of the details of this investigation probably because some of those Li John Purpose so they could try to find a suspect and probably because I mean the rumor mill was churning so the notion that this could have been a random encounter horrified them and they learned that nobody nobody in her immediate family or friends had been zeroed in on as a suspect in. Everyone was worried that a serial killer could be on the loose. Could this type of murder happened again in seriously the entire town was on edge and believe that the next person was going to turn up dad any moment now that was the biggest murder that had ever happened in Birmingham like when I say biggest I mean the goriest most coverage Tracy was very beautiful. She was white she had blond hair and as we know unfortunately those tend the crime that gets less coverage in the media but the fact that she was that Tracy was dumped over Bridger Mountain broke was just very very shocking shocking for everyone people were they had their guard up people were hyper aware and it was really really terrifying because they did not find a killer. Okay so very interesting. I personally was very curious about what glitter could be used for in terms of witchcraft because I see glitter as like a very commercially produced thing when you think witchcraft for me at least I think like a bundle of sage or like frogs. I you know it the things that they use in Hocus pocus for the random organic stuff and but apparently glitter glitter is just not something that you had it doesn't have a connotation like I pagan or witchcraft what you associate with a Strip club basic bell or crafting or which I'm a fan of yeah but anyway so I googled what glitter could be used for an in sort of witchcraft according to a post in the witch circle which is a message board says also so glitter is a booster of sorts to amplify intent to explore effectiveness typically the addition of glitter and when they say affected effectiveness they mean of a spell typically the addition of glitter is best utilized in money spells as it is symbolically more festive and celebrate Tori however however for spouse requiring more of an instant razzle-dazzle which is one of my favorite terms s attracting new love nailing job interview. It doesn't shy away from serving serving. It's purpose plus as burns it can be used as a form of divination much like tasks geography to Grafitti is a method did for fortune telling that uses tea leaves or coffee grounds or wine sediments thinking like you throw some glitter end because it's it's all about where the water throws these pigments that events yeah. I think that's what they're going for interesting. Well you you ladies. Who have your glitter leftover from Your glory days? You know what to do with it. Now spell exactly Jacqueline. Did you have a question. Oh my question was just thought glitter I believe is plastic. Burning plastic creates toxic fumes. I think is glitter like metal and I think it's a little metal or just plastic thought it was magic. Oh I thought it was very tells yes rainbows and sunshine but so what's going on here is that this is we're in in the mid eighty s and people heard glitter and people heard witchcraft and they went right to the devil worship and Satan what was going on on now we had the mcmartin case which is a big case in California of the this daycare that was being accused of molesting children via witchcraft. You had a a little bit later on you. Had the Rickie Casio case New York on Long Island you had all of these cases where there was so much of what they called Satanic Panic Yeah and and we're also for here in the Bible Belt so this is going to be really scary for everyone will and these are the people who were hyper reactive to it. Yeah where it's like you z. a. a heinous crime then you hear the person is listening to music that has like the mention of Seton or this or that. They're going to immediately jump up to like the devil and I feel like in coastal cities. were less susceptible to that. Even at this time I mean clearly not because the mcmartin case happened opened in Huntington Beach City but I feel like back then when this happened given the like unnecessary mutilation of the body and it's just the shock value illicit since something like dot crazy of a murder hadn't happened there right a wildfire like that. It's not just like somebody turns up dead under a bridge like there's a lot more to that that is horrifying for everybody around and that's the we're talking about. Birmingham and Birmingham is one of the most racially divided cities apper and also conservative of and there were a ton of religious of horrible crimes that had been committed there but when they saw something like this and and God and the devil everything so much of a part of their life on Sunday and then that branches out that's where they're gonNA go. They're going to point to it and they're going to say you know what this can't be something that happened with a corner regular regular person they would do really bad stuff to people above collar but they would be yeah for then they'd be like no. This can't happen here. This has to have been committed by somebody that was under control of Seattle title and it was such a big deal on the news all the time you know we haven't found the killer most gruesome body in Birmingham history. When are we going to find on the killer? When are we going to find the killer and it became a thing recently where the media was soaking the fear of the community and and so for months I used to think well I bet that you know whoever dumped her body was probably in those would would call us and is now gonNA come find us because they had says that the police had said you know we had found hearst of quickly they wouldn't have been able to get an ID that quickly and able to work on the case set quickly and there was no her body Hatton decomposed composed at all so in my mind that meant that we had done something that would upset this killer Thursday on CBS? Get ready to be mesmerized by the most unique and inventive new show this season from the executive producers of the good fight comes a new series evil. Evil is a mystery that examines the Line Between Science and Religion Cau- harbors plays Christian Boo Shard a forensic psychologist who is hired by a priest and training played by Mike Colter he needs her skeptical mind to help investigate the churches backlog of unexplained mysteries they they will examine claims of miracles demonic possession huntings and everything in between is that science or supernatural that is the question that they'll try to answer her the brilliance of Michael Emerson as their name assist arrival psychologist working for the dark side and after a Dave investigating kristen goes home to her four four young daughters and one very British demon he may only be in her mind but maybe not so get cozy blanket curl up on the SOFA and prepared to be surprised is in very entertained evil premier Thursday at ten PM Eastern and Pacific and nine pm central on CBS so as news of this case permeated witnesses from the night Tracy went missing started to come forward a man named James is at Dudley Parker came forward and told police that he had seen Tracy after she had left for work that night and she was even still wearing her uniform James New Tracy because he'd worked with author at a restaurant a few years back and on the night he'd seen her they were at Tom and Jerry's convenience store at a gas station on the south side of Birmingham mm-hmm he saw trees out of the store right before he did and he stood in the cashier line behind her and washed her by two quarts of Motor oil they acknowledged pitch other briefly and then she walked out and was going towards a light blue car and when James Parker left the storm self he looked toward the left and he saw saw a man in a nineteen sixty nine to nineteen seventy-one blue dots and or a Toyota and it seemed like the man was waiting on Tracy and he took a good look could him because he assumed that this was probably tracey's boyfriend was beautiful right yeah. He's like he's he said more in depth interviews like well you know I worked with her once she was is this pretty girl and I wanted to see what her husband or boyfriend. What the deal too same thing as googling absolutely people's significant others are so the following day day when James found out about tracy being murdered he calls the cops right away as he should as you always said and he gives a description of the man when he had seen that was he was waiting on Tracy? He described the person as a white male thirty to thirty two years old with dark with dark hair worn in a ponytail. Now the police had something to go on and they had a place. It's a start looking for clues. which was Tom and Jerry's gas station right so the police go to Tom and Jerry's and they speak to employees there? In that employee tells them that yes us. He remembered a blonde female around twenty six who was wearing a restaurant uniform coming in and asking for assistance in selecting two courts of motor oil then found Tracy's disabled Black Chevy Monte Carlo nearby on Eighteenth Street on the south side of Birmingham Immingham but before doing this even I mean the guy who worked at the gas station show them it was back in the day when you had a cash register that just spat out about the long strip of sales so we showed them like listen like it was like a dollar sixty nine for each court and they show them like this was the sale they they had a time stamp. I mean it corroborated exactly with this other witness that said Brench made him very credible and made them believe the account of the person tracy swift even more after they found Tracy's car mechanic inspected the vehicle and found that it had about starter and that you know once it was cranked fuel would run out of the fuel pump and the engine would stop running in that they also found that the car was to courts over overfilled with motor oil they ask Tracy's family about this in the dodd in this. It's heartbreaking because it reminds me of my dad because every time I have a problem with my car I call my dad but that said you know I. The one thing I taught tracy was how to fill her own oil and it's the only thing she knew how to do so. If there was something wrong with a car she thought she was out of oil or low and oil and it just wouldn't something wrong with her car. She had to be oil the oil she wouldn't she got oil and she tried to rethought herself and it was like the car was to courts over like car is fine but she's like Oh. My Dad taught me it's oil we all and she tried it. Just breaks breaks my heart so police were canvassing this entire area and they've he then eventually found two empty quarts of oil. Will you know oil cans with price labels like those in a fifty five gallon garbage can near where her car was found so at this point they're starting to piece together. A Theory Tracy left work but sometime on her drive home or car broke down. There were no cellphones back then so think about this your only choice as a woman. Your car breaks down to accept help from a stranger or do I walk somewhere. That's that's terrifying. It's terrifying. Those are your only choices both would be considered now probably a high risk choice. You don't have another choice at at that time so those were her choices and basically they believed a stranger picked her up offered to help her brought her to buy oil and then went back to her car with oil when the car still didn't start this stranger offered to drive her home in sometime between then because they know the oil went into her car because her car was to courts overfilled so they know that she made it back to her car but sometime hi between then and when she was supposed to be driven home she disappeared so they have a good theory and they believe that that's when she was killed over handful of weeks leaks James Parker assisted in making a composite drawing of the man that he saw he reviewed hundreds of photos of mugshot books and accompanied members of the sheriff's department on several several occasions to southside nightspots attempt to spot the man that he had seen on the night of the murder gyms Pirker was even put under hypnosis no says to try and shake some loose memories or identifiers of the suspect from that night but nothing ended up working and we've talked about this before another episodes but you know something that I despise was was starting to come into this investigation and it was. I think it's important for this episode. It's another thing it's eighty six to to to put us in the correct time understood this was commonplace. We saw Austin Katie Beers was like this was big in Katie bears like helping to solve it and this was later than this the only reason why I like it it is in the sense and what we're talking about. Everybody is we're talking about psychics and I don't believe in it but what it does for for me what I what the only reason why I think it's okay is because it gives the local press another thing to write about and keep keep it in the consciousness. Keep it keep it in the news cycle. Oh a psychic came and whatever and you know it's it's pretty much denounced right now l. but you're right Alexis in the eighties. It was like Oh a psychic came in and they were they were using psychics back in Boston Strangler. They yeah I coming back in the sixties. There no doubt no doubt eighties Joe Doubt Nine these they were still doing it subsided however it was one of the top shows like long nyland museum was still topping Charts Pass twenty ten. We'll people still believe I mean of course but I'm saying like it's not it's it's crazy when you think about it. In terms of police work now but it only became like quackery and the nineties late nineties yeah so they start calling and especially given the circumstances of the case because we've got the glitter the devil worship the severe mutilation of the body and also the intense media covered so they're all coming out of the woodwork now of course because they probably feel compelled to basically they're like clairvoyance decision Asian goodness so months passed and any new leads were coming to a halt so they had nothing to go off of in terms of who or why or what or any thing else they looked for Prince. They looked for everything that they could given the limitations nations they had as far as their technology and they had nothing all they had was this little speck of glitter had been months with no movement and the investigation instigation when another bizarro psychic kind of thing came in it was November fourth when an attorney named Bob Bob Sanford called the detectives working on the case he said that his client named Tommy broadly claim to be having quote visions from God related to Tracy's murder case and he wanted to tell them all the information that he now so the next day the police met with Bradley and his attorney and the attorney said to the police Lisa Bradley would happily share whatever he knew as far as his visions. If the police would tell them why he was being followed the police were super puzzled by him because he was not being followed especially not by them and the police at this point. We're thinking that WHO's probably suffering from a mental illness possibly experiencing some kind of a paranoia so they did a cursory interview but nothing this guy was saying was really holding weight and he also didn't share any info that wasn't already publicly accessible by the news and the media right and you see this a lot when you find for example. If if there's a child found you've got like two hundred people coming forward claiming to be they're lost mother. I mean for some reason when when these kind of cases that are highly controversial come into the spotlight it resonates with and especially back then to remember. We're talking about the eighties before the Internet before everything you see it a little bit to see it lasts now back then though l. when things weren't Google Bulla whatever you would have people that would try to inject themselves into the store taste better for him attack her now to picture fail to go out with ARETHA car. There's a there is it is his SOCI- storm they had this thing allies into timeshare mall basic Sir than ever so what you just heard were some very very old and poor quality audio clips from the interview with Tommy Bradley and as you can hear he says very creepy stuff. He believes the killer was in a state of mind where he wanted a girlfriend. He talks about Tracy going to buy oil about her going to Tom and Jerry's but these were all things that had been reported on widely in the local newspapers I so is this creepy yes. Is it a smoking gun. Does it implicate Tommy in any railway. No you know they had this interview with Tommy Bradley then they had another call and Bradley. There's two days later. Bradley was making even more stranger claims and the police thought it was and they still didn't know what to make of it right because I mean they had been receiving all these calls from psychics I mean how do you know how to differentiate what to you but you have to run everything of course then they did they did and so in the months that followed these calls. The police were following following leads but they never took their eye off of Tami Bradley because they had a weird feeling about him and the detective kept over poor with with him and decided just to keep them talking 'cause they had no idea what he would eventually say and tie Bradley seems like oddly invested in it and they just got a weird feeling. It's the same thing you get when they anticipate. Criminals coming back to the crime scene are coming to vigils like this guy had he was like a moth off to a flame in terms of this case in this report kept going for months and even though Tommy Bradley hadn't shared anything explicit elicit as far as things that weren't available to the public he had this gut feeling and he was just going to keep this going so with this revelation. The police are starting to think that this guy could be a viable suspect. So who is he exactly Thomas. Paul Bradley was a twenty six year old from the Center Point area of Alabama which is UH supper of Birmingham. Yes he had gone to the local Bible College and he was extremely religious and belonged to a fundamentalist gentlest church he wasn't married and he had recently been divorced and had no kids but could Tom Bradley really be Tracy's killer and he was good looking. I mean he he was like his attractive sort of babyfaced mustache theory ordinary looking guy hi so they didn't know I mean he was kind of like a Bible thumper dude and it was sort of anyone's guess and that's the thing it's like is he. Just this fundamentalist Celeste. is He really seeing visions from God or like. Is there something mess up about him that we're reading to. Are we reading into this too much. so the detective he's got the rapport with him and he asks him sort of like nonchalantly. Have you had any other visions about traces murder and Tommy. It's like yeah so they meet again two days later and he said he actually believed that he could take AAC the police to key locations from the murder so over two days he takes them around all these different locations in Birmingham and the Birmingham area any actually points out the exact location where Tracy's car had been found which was not released to the public. This is some that they head to the public and he also directed the officers to this bridge and that was the same one that Tracy had been found beneath and when they arrive there he asked the cops he was just like stopped the car and he proceeds to speak in tongues and you know just sort of doing this sort of gibberish unintelligible sounds for thirty to forty minutes while he's gripping the dashboard and the door handle they all get out of the car and he explains that the victim's body had thrown from the opposite side of the bridge where it was actually found right so the police are just like Oh my God because it's all adding up I mean this guy knows things that no one should know and they're not sure if his dramatics are are his attempts fainting psychic ability or or feigning innocence I mean they're they're all trying to read his body language like in what he's doing but no one's doing that successfully because it's just very bizarre but they had very very many conversations with Tommy and they were all recorded and on these audiotapes Tummy Bradley describes visions he had actually as the killer in an one recorded session. He said in his his direct quote he seemed girls that he thought were attractive attractive enough to go out with even if he had to kill them before and before we continue I think we should bring it up he. He's like in Ohio in Saul yeah he really is an og and sell he's an og install. In the more we learn about this I mean I don't think we should get new conversation. I think we should do it at at the end but that hadn't occurred to me until just now but let's get into it after bright so he also gave graphic details about the murderer and Tracy's final terrifying being moments he said quote she knew she was being killed when that you know when that knife started in her third time and she uttered her lost conscious willful volition thoughts to God and towards herself in towards her friends and mother at that time and that was that I don't know what's happening to me but I want y'all. I want y'all to find the sky so these interviews with Tommy Bradley continued in one of them. He set something that essentially sealed his guilt in the eyes of law enforcement. Tami Bradley says there is there something else about her license. What's the killer may have burnt it with a cigarette lighter? The Tommy said that one of his visions quote unquote he could see even killer burned something plastic like the victims driver's license and threw it out on the road in this is one of the only pieces says if information like Billy said earlier in the top of the episode when Lillian came forward and talked about finding the driver's license they did not release so the public. This is not something anybody else could know but what Tommy said was you know he he he saw in a vision that this driver's license he's had been burned whether it's by a lighter or aflame something to that effect in that you know the fact that he's privy to the information that only the killer would now it really on nudge the police in that direction that this guy was involved and he also knew Oh that Tracy kept her driver's license inner pocket in her jeans rather than in her purse wallet and that is something something that just her family had told the police he also knew that Tracy read the power of positive thinking the book and that's something that the police also learned from her family and it's something he recounted over and over again when he said to the police what he saw in his visions and there's no way that Tommy Bradley could have known these things had he not been the killer himself and luckily for the police. Tommy kept doing something that you want your suspect to do you want them to disk. Keep talking and he keeps talking. He talks about these visions of the murder for twenty hours. He describes in detail detail about how the killer came upon this woman how he told her you know what I can help you out. Doc just get along with me how he beat her out he abused or sexually and then how he killed her. He stated that the killer had had come upon this disabled vehicle that he came up to her and said I'm going to help you and fixed car and then expressed concern though that you're not gonNa make it home so I'm GonNa take you when you come to Tom and Jerry's where will buy oil and then he waited there for her in his car and then offered to take her home and then she said yes he's he's basically giving the police like what they're already theorising that happened and he continued. He said that Tracy tried to run this direct quote that when the killer when he says the killer I mean this is essentially a confession when the killer realized that the victim was performing sexual acts wchs only to save her life. He began stabbing her that she started fighting him that as he was killing her he shouted you ugly beast that although she appeared to be dead after the third stop he continued to stop her eight to fourteen more times to make sure that she was dead that he then mutilated related her internally probably with an unusual knife with a big wooden handle or with a comb that he performed witchcraft on her that he took from her neck a gold chain with something hanging on it and that when he realized that she was dead he professed. I'm sorry I'm sorry I killed you. Tracy new quote she was going to be killed said it was inevitable and that the Tracy had authorized yourself to be killed because she had willfully sent the killer's motive was less in revenge based on a girl in his past in-cell. I'm sorry based on a girl in his past get accepted so I'm sure after listening to hours and hours of true crime podcast watching true crime shows you feel a little bit spooked at night in your home home and you know you want to feel safe and secure in the comfort of your own home while you're sleeping at night and that's why today's podcast is sponsored by Adt and with Adt you you can get all the latest innovation and Smart Home Security combined with twenty four seven monitoring from the most trusted name in home security you can have a team of professionals nationals designing and installing a secure smart home just for you there's eighteen thousand employees safeguarding you from with connection to first responders and with Adt can get a secure smart home with everything from video doorbells indoor and outdoor Cameras Smart Lacson likes all controlled from the ADT APP or the sound of your voice and that includes getting professionally monitored carbon monoxide and smoke detectors and all this is a system custom designed to fit at your home and you can get safety on the go in the car when the kids are at school with the at go APP or with the SOS button so go check out adt today and in these conversations Tami Bradley described the killer as someone like me as having an above average I q being well-versed in the Bible and strong willed he said the killer loved Blondes and loved to inflict pain during sex and he also made sure to highlight that the killer was very concerned about his mother not finding out about the crime he said that the killer quote feels that his mother would be very disappointed in him and the killer had been molested by his mother when he was a very young child and that the killer would come forward right now and be executed on public TV TV in front of the whole world if the killer could keep his mother from finding out he had done something like this again we have to stop because it's very reminiscent of our last episodes and you see this a lot. In these sort of these mother hangups yeah well listen one of the most famous in its fictional but it does have a ring of truth while we're going to go with that was going to quit psycho course and it does have a lot of truth in there. It really does yeah the relationship with his mom. We talked about in Los Episode though that there are so many Keller's and serial killers that do kill like pretty strongly related to mommy slanted Ted the mom yeah what's interesting about it and you hear all the time with women like Daddy Issues Daddy issues you. Don't your mommy issues that much because many there bury it yeah yeah or they carry it out true. It's either you don't even know they have mommy issues because they just don't date a lot or they're like sort of loners or just or they. It's so manifest in like an extremely volatile way actually yeah so the police start digging into you there are suspect and they learn that Tommy was a former former high school chaplain as a teenager he was described as nice looking clean cut and religious. He is good looking good looking so they approached he had actually had an ex wife. They approached the ex wife to speak to her about Tommy and what she said was that two years before the murder when they were still married she was his inside Tommy's car and had seen a little bottle of red and pink glitter when she asked about this. What's this litter about? He said that he used the glitter to perform witchcraft. which is the first time he ever mentioned anything about witchcraft throughout their entire urge so with this revelation about the glitter compounded with everything else that they had the Birmingham Sheriff's department finally felt like they had they needed for the arrests? They'd been waiting to to make Tommy Paul. Bradley was taken into custody at his family's home. He was charged with a capital offence of committing the murder Dr Tracy Shetland during sexual assault so once Tommy was in custody. It's shown a big spotlight on him. The flood gates is opened and people started coming forward having their own experiences with him and a woman named Jody Thompson came forward and detail chilling encounter she had with Tommy Bradley in the early morning hours of June twenty fifth one thousand nine hundred eighty six tracy went missing on July thirteenth. Just just for some perspective SA's like two weeks three weeks before wall. Jody was driving home on the Red Mountain Expressway from southside bar. Tommy in his automobile attempted to force her third by ramming her car a high speed chase down the US highway ensued in which showed his car was bombed several roll times by this person and she was eventually forced to stop showed. He rolls her window at some point and exclaimed. What on Earth do you think you're trying to do in my theory is yes? That's like the Virgin mother or what are you doing. He was trying to kill her so I'm sure there were expletives involved. She could see the man Dan was trying to ram her off. The road had his penis out and was masturbating so she merely rolled her window and locked doors and sped away. Hi Tommy again chased her down at high speeds. When Jodi brought her Carter a screeching halt? Tommy zoomed away. Jody thought she was safe. She turned her car on and starting during driving back to Birmingham but suddenly Tommy showed back up again ramming her once more eventually she stopped at a traffic light and he got out of his automobile. Luckily her doors were locked but he got out with his pants down his penis fully exposed and began banging hanging his fists on the window of Jody's Card muttering something unintelligible all presumably speaking in tongues finally Jodi sped away and she lost lost him. She reported the incident to the police but can you imagine not having a cell phone and this happening to you so scary especially in the backwoods roads of Alabama listen at least belly like long island certain roads someone comes by every five to ten minutes. Yeah aw these roads are even worse than what I'm used to which is five minutes. This is like every twenty minutes me. Maybe this guy is ramming her stroking his penis. It's like she knows this is a sexual offender like that. Would I just read is my nightmare. It's terrifying and with no cell phone to call for help. You're you think you're about to die. It's just a nightmare so not surprisingly that's not the only incident of him being a creep creep. Another local young woman named Cathy ledbetter came forward should yet another ominous story about him at five thirty. Am On July tenth nineteen eighty eighty six three days before he murdered Tracy Yeah Cathy was on the south side looking for a gas station and she approached a car asking the driver if he knew where she could find one he he said that there is a gas station opened a few blocks away. She said thanks and left didn't think anything of it and we'll copy was driving to find this place. She noticed the man was following her in his car. When she pulled into the gas station parking lot he pulled up right beside her and she could see through the window that he had his pants down and was masturbating? She called him a sick mother. Burn ran into the building and Tommy drove away. Thank God and it didn't stop there. So the first one was in the last week of June the next one and was on July tenth and then on July Twelfth. It was a woman named Karen McKEN. She said that and this is the night before Tracy's he's murder. She stopped at a southside convenience store to use the phone and she was attacked by Tommy. She said she walked past past while she was on her phone and then suddenly out of nowhere he grabbed her face and slammed it against the window and he then grabbed her chest in order not to scream and then but karen screamed anyway which you should always do and and just started hitting her with the pay phone receiver and he had his pants down he actually fled and Karen reported this to the police. So what we've got here is he is. He's ramping up. He's us. He's going from the last week. In June I two three days before the attack a day before the attack and he's trying and also he's beaten in face ace by a payphone with the last person he attempted to assaults which might just like amplify his frustration Gratien Walney is girls not that they keep getting away but he's not having the conclusion that he wants so he's probably getting more pissed off and you know he's probably strategies guy. I'm not nice enough. He's trial and error brings all within three weeks yeah no because he's thinking because obviously obviously tracy would not have gone into his car if you were down or if you try to just like grabber ahead bang it against a window so there was there was something between finessed ast approach something between those those episodes where he's thinking I can't do this. I can get this person to follow position. If I don't have my pants down right just insane disgusting so given we learn about the women who've come forward and given what we know about the evidence that we have the arrest is obvious. The indictment is cemented. Now with the prosecutors needed was a conviction that would be a little bit harder to cement as it always is as even innocent people go free but fifty nine witnesses total were called the testify including his ex wife Ruth Miller who you mentioned earlier talked about the glitter and like we said she mentioned the glitter she mentioned that he was a devout Bible reader that he was fascinated by blondes and that he dabbled in witchcraft and according to an article for the Alabama Journal she said on the stand stanton. He told me he liked blonde haired blue eyed girls in that he just liked to have a lot of sex but in addition to that during the trial jurors was also heard these hours of confessions that were taped by the Birmingham Sheriff's department they listen to everything he had ever said so not surprisingly Elizabeth who discovered the body who had discovered the blood on the bridge was called to testify the. Da's decided that one of the three of us had to testify. I'm I'm also the one that found the plus and I hey can met this. They're just like teenage Shane that goes along with this but when like this huge case was going on and you know all these articles on and everybody's talking about it there's as teenagers there's a tiny part of me that was like and this is a little bit cool. You know I found this this body and I'm gonNA testify and and you know and and I I hate to even admit it but it was something that I kind of almost cool and the day of the well actually the day before and it's got a little more real so I went to testify and the advice that hasn't given was just don't look at him. Don't look Tommy Bradley's Nice To. I was like all right. I'm totally not gonNA look at him. out there terrified any coolness that I thought what about being able to testify was completely gone. As soon as I sat down and raise my right hand and I thought what who why why would you even eighteen just bought all this is horrible. Elizabeth could see Tracy's family sitting in the front row of the court you know I don't Tracy's family family sitting there. In the first row there they're crying. They're real everything became extremely yell and she found herself staring into the eyes of the killer himself Tami Bradley and of course immediately I looked over to my right and they're the Tami Bradley family and he's just strange strange looking fella. He kind of I mean he was quote unquote moral buddy ah but at the same time I mean he had like hair intentionally. He's young twenty six or twenty seven and I've come to the baby's face space and I think that's one of the things that struck me was his baby face but with these is and is just like hollow literally literally felt like they had nothing in them no motion nothing and I kept looking at him and he would just keep burying me in this way that to me he just felt so creepy and so terrifying and again after I testified I was thinking about all the time I'm like Oh great. He's not gonNA kill then. We're finding the body soon. He's GonNa kill me because my name and then they have been in the papers and now now you know he's going to go to jail and he's GonNa State and he's GonNa come and he's got a bird and what was I think alarming to me is how accurate not not look at him. He would look turn around and look at the audience. Serve the Yeah I guess you call them the galleries all the time and kind of break all of them out because that's just not normal behavior. Tommy broadly was convicted of capital murder and he was facing execution by the electric electric chair however the jury and judge spared him the death penalty and he was given life without parole in Tracy's family went up to Elizabeth's mother. They're actually after the trial and had some kind words for them. For my mother said at the very end of the trial that the Shetland family came out to my mother are and introduce themselves and of course she knew they were and they said you know we just wanted to thank you so much. three extend your thanks our thanks to your God or finding our daughter so quickly they were so grateful that we get her as quickly as we could and get her home with the Lord word and we're just so sorry that she had to see her in that condition and we wish that she could have met her under a different ah under different circumstances and they talked about what a lovely woman their daughter does and I just remember you know even now makes Pasto go little bit tearful just thinking of this family that has lost their daughter or their pride and joy Chia dennard walls both she was at the you you know peak of her life and there's such a kind family that what they think about is me. I thought about them. Many many years since then and I know that the brother is still alive and so I'm thinking about writing him a letter Dan just telling him what his parents is but also explaining how I had us in some ways it's sister's death for positive and to help other victims of sexual assault and sexual violence in my career as a psychotherapist yes so after this experience after experiencing this trauma at a young age she also experienced some other very traumatic events in college. Elizabeth actually decided to pursue a career in psycho therapy to help others not only did she help you know survivors of rape and sexual violence like she just mentioned but her own traumatic experiences allowed out her way to connect with veterans about some of what they are going and have gone through and then all says prising -ly been able to help better and and where I work with soldiers to come back from war through just very very small understanding I have to finding one body and knowing how much saying one body mess with me and screwed me and thinking about my soldiers his wall for multiple body stumping their people they knew from being their friends. Being you know mass graves. It's something that they've never seen their lives but it gave me just a teeny when of contact but it it it did help battle in terms of being able to relate to the veterans as well. It's really incredible that Elizabeth managed to turn a horrible traumatic situation situation that she experienced when she was fourteen into something meaningful. We've both read the book by Viktor Frankl man search for meaning and the Femur that book is you find meaning in your suffering great or small. It is the way to take the power back and Elizabeth you manage to do that as well as help. Keep Tracy's memory alive so thank you so. What did we learn today you know he he definitely has when you're looking at him could could he? You've been a serial killer that that's the question he was definitely Eh. He was leading a he. He confessed to it when he was talking about. How the killer he didn't want his mom to see him do this again? That's the way tots of women yes you've been through many. He was ramping. All of this up and nasty. Women are driving next twenty minutes just like this sect impulse. It's like a organized lust thing that he's just he's just not smart enough to control but it's weird though that he does control it with his last last victim and he does say I can't do that stuff. I've got to keep it in control is talking about because he doesn't have his pants off because he had his pants off with her into into Lewis really well. No he wised up. That's what I know so he had seen he's like. I can't have my dick out. I just have the wherewithal thought to do that. Draws Impulses enough to actually get her in the car which shows that that you know we yes. We often talk about well. How many times you're going to try to approach co-chairwoman masturbating in thinking they're going to get in the car with you? Literally every time punching the facing called the woman in this world would be like this is a great car to get into all those guys in junk and also they say I when I'm walking down the street and a truck drives by me and whistles and hawks on my cousin ever worked for you learn ignore me and I'll get in your truck back with another girl in front of me and I want to listen. I passed a guy recently. That was masturbating next to me. It's it's way more common that you than you would think the that's the thing that is such scary behavior. It's not like Oh this guy's just a creep. It's like no no that is our mall. They cannot control themselves sexually and that's new surveys escalate control its control for sure all right well a big big think you'd Elisabeth for being our first reconnection sharing your store and trusting us with your story Q. And thank you for the work. You're doing with with our veterans. Yes yeah we appreciate it very much so much. if anybody listening is one degree away from a murder or other stranger than fiction story lease write US hello at the first degree podcast dot com you can read us on Instagram at first degree addicts linkletter Appalachians and attract Panik. Go Buy some. I agree merge on our website. We got lots of fun stuff up there and again. Give us a five serve you on apple podcasts and enter or to win some March and if you WANNA stick around for a little bit a killing time than stick around after these ads sixty seconds. That's exactly how long this commercial last four and you know what else that you can do in just about a minute you can get an offer for your car with Truecar car. That's right and the amount of time that it takes to floss your teeth. Pet your dog do few sit ups. Make a cup of coffee or just listen to the sound of my beautiful voice choice. 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A. but do you download episodes of the Hollywood filter every week on on apple podcasts or podcast one all right so welcome back taller second installment of killing time and you're not even going to try to say the killing time the killing time killing time the killing time okay well. I made a post on facebook group. If you guys are not a member of it. Please join asking what you guys want to to hear US talking about and I think for first second episode of killing time everybody wants to know how we know each other and like how we we became this this. That's a fair question Yeah Alexis. Would you like to explain how you and I met yeah our our mutual best friend Anna I met in the line of big Wang's when I was twenty years old which was a Shitty shitty bar on Choline Gaza where I used to go all the time time with my fake. Id It was the only one of the only bars would take bouncer Steve would just look people in with their fake ID's all phony for birthday there and he was like what what you're not twenty one and I'm like what I had the same thing there I been going for three years and then finally turned twenty one like hasty Tony uh-huh wait what courtney so I met Anna in the bathroom and then we'll just start hanging out and then Jack and I moved in together in this crazy crazy house in at the base of the Hollywood hills in Franklin village we call it the Pink Pink House and we had just the craziest year our lives it was it was glory days. It was like a Frat House. it wasn't like a sorority house it was it was the Frat House. It was disgusting. It was dirty. Well just having a good. We had parties parties every day. Harvey wasn't dirty. It wasn't clean it was it wasn't dirty clean. When I moved out we had a rat that that lived in our house and I had gone on the warped tour over the summer and when I came home there was a ratchet all over my room you and then I never went in? I like left all my stuff. Samarra like this is all right. I guess I don't own it was fun. It was fine and then Alexis. How do you know billy so billion? I met actually the first time I ever saw belly. was that the smoke house that's right. What's the smoke very famous smoke house which is a it's a restaurant slash bar? You're very old school outside of the Warner Brothers Lot. Oh it's like deals are made and everything and I think actually we were. We were just talking about names production companies and things that we've got yeah. I think George Collins Production Company is called Smoke House. Oh the smokehouse uh-huh well. It's actually an interesting story so I was working on a show for the golden state killer prior to the arrest yeah and it was at the same time that Michelle was still working on her book when we were still in way pre production and where was working somebody maybe a colleague of my name's Todd was like Billy Jenine like what about them and their relationship with him. I'm like I don't know okay and and I followed billy on twitter like five followers. I didn't really have a twitter and billy like wanted nothing to do with me. It's not right before you met her or after you met her before trying to get away from us. We kind of just have him like encapsulated. Take me and he was like nope. I want nothing to do so that's pretty much true. Did you take Alexis Alexis seriously when you first met her because I met her yeah so I met her with we met at the smokehouse with the taxes and joke and todd but it was clear that Alexis knew more about the case than than Jokin Todd Todd New the most all right one Taylor Yeah Tana Todd told Michelle about it yeah like ten years before so I was amenable so we uh-huh yes we met we met there and it was it was fine. It was lovely but then what happened. Billy thought that I was sent in as a pawn to try try to coax information from would he did. He's like this is like a young attractive girl spy. That's what he thought that we became friends that we became friends I remember I don't know if this is before you met billy but you're showing me his website and you're like I WANNA cop. Yes I told him this. I told you this right. 'cause you're websites really cool. You have a very the layout is the aesthetic screening. It's cool the Bourbon I remember it distinctly and I've never seen it since because I don't have a reason on your website but of course the many in the about is like the many talents of Billy Johnson are like the many it's a series of unfortunate events. Yes uh I don't know I don't know what it says but then building I became friends. Should we tell them we went when after he became friends and yes we went to jumbo's clown okay so we were like we're going to be friends now. Let's Jumbo's clown room and we're GonNa talk to your crime yes for anybody. That doesn't know what was climbing. Explain at Jumbo's climbed room is probably one of the best most famous I I don't even want to call it a strip burlesque burlesque queens aren't they. They're they're clo hit tops and yeah. I don't. I'm so drunk every time they have to wear. They have to cover up. Everything Courtney love dance there. David Lynch used to write scripts from the bar there. It's like it's it's a very warm place comic. Yeah Yeah Weird nineties before that probably probably late eighties. You know it's been around for so long. They haven't redone anything inside. It's very interesting place like highly recommend going to if you ever come to. La If you ever come delays he goes one onto jumbo's clown room the bonding experience exactly and then the podcast came up. You're telling me you're like I really wanNA start a pot. Ah True Crime podcast. I wonder who should do it with well. Obviously I was like trying to get you to do with me and we'd never worked together never worked together but she jack knows that I'm an erotic super. Hard worker will never let anyone down and I knew Sh- anything she touches it will be successful so it was like a recipe recipe for success but you kind of you're like. I don't know I Kinda WanNa do this thing but I don't wait a second. I love true crime. I wanted to start a true sure crime podcast. Nobody'll ever take me seriously doing it myself. So we put our heads together. We're like what are we missing. We're missing listen. I could ability ready because they produce shows but billy's got like the real credibility fans right credit and true crime has mostly female fans and we were not gonna fly just doc. Let's be real now. They needed a man to lust over exactly for Bill Lee Jensen and leftover women to relate to yes so it's like a winning combination nation to have all three but we took billy two drinks at the broader room yes yes and he was like tell me what Gotcha got and we were like sup and Jacker like brainstorming at Soho House all day talking about it. We had finally no no. We'll blue meetings. We're brainstorming. I think when we first started talking we didn't have the idea for the I said well. What's the Hook Yeah? There's a million true crime podcast out there. What are we going to deliver? That's different. I like both of you won't really be the stranger but he's like Jack. I'd I like her retired. emo Kid my work. Ethic and I like your work ethic. But what are we gonna do what's going to be a TV. Show is going to be different than the other podcast and then you guys went back to the woodshed months. H How can I took it took a long. It was a year between when we first started like brainstorming to when we actually released the first episode of the podcast because we were brainstorming. We're like what's what's the hook. What's GonNa make us different? We're going back and forth and one day when we're just hanging out we're both talking. I was talking about the net and like Oh. It's weird that I like a mother of one of my like girls and my cheerleading team killed her husband and then you're talking about your story and we're like it's pretty crazy that there's so many people that are one degree away from something but you don't really talk about it. No I think it really just shapes you in a lot of weird ways and I mean like the episode we did today. I I mean she st- discovered the body of somebody in its shaped trajectory life yeah you know and because it didn't it's not just like oh I saw a body no big deal she was she had trauma from it and she ended up working in mental health and working with people who see bodies are traumatized by and I think the idea that the these are inconsequential things I think is crazy like this. These are our worst fears realized right and I think I think we're all we all feel really impacted by anything close to US right. You know whether it's like gossip or you know something traumatic or something scandalous like we all sort of like even if you're if you're best friends sheet it on you feel that that reverberates like it's when you're connected to stuff. It's almost like it's happening to you if you're not if you're not if you've empathy like bleed need people right. Now is a small like listen. We talk about psychopaths a lot statistically there aren't that many so why we're speaking speaking to the Lakers yeah but is it. Is it more because how do they really know. I don't know have you read the psychopath test. Gee I haven't read it in a long time but I have read yeah so I mean yeah they become see Ios or killers. What happens or data or politicians wish Jewish? It was a psychopath I've done life would be so much richer and you didn't eat. You didn't need human connection your they're not happy but you'd be they don't need happiness and eat happy. They live for pleasure yeah. They just do what's pleasurable. They don't need happiness. Yeah imagine that not needing happy. We know that sounds Nice. I clearly don't need it because I haven't had it my whole life I stay tuned. I'm working on that therapy guys for lexuses next therapy session okay well. I feel that was a good amount of killing time. We can kill some time. Eleven minutes and twenty four second killed some time there is that ship at your sign off. I think we will we. I think we enough time I think we killed. We'll figure it out. Somebody gives us a recommendation. Thanks for killing some time with us. Yeah

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