Pirate Shaming Lists Don't Work

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Hello and welcome to the PODCAST. I'm Mike Mass Nick before we get started with the show I wanted to quickly remind people about our new anthology of speculative fiction about the future work called working features we talked with some of the authors recently on the podcast but I wanted to remind listeners in case they hadn't yet checked the book eighty two infringement even worse the list of infringing sites included the personal website of one of universal music's biggest stars so I was ah bit surprised to see that Wipro the World Intellectual Property Organization recently announced that it was putting together very similar database what it's called fine there was also someone incredibly vibe magazine which is a magazine that writes about the music industry quite frequently and also which is odd for a variety of reasons including if you actually follow the money often looks like legacy industry players trying to avoid competition not actually stamp out infringement for example there was a list that we wrote about a few years ago that was put together by one of the very big a few times in the past where we've seen attempts to create a list of so-called infringing sites and that list of sites would either be blocked some sort of obviousness to copyright infringement that allows them to make rules or suggest ideas based on the fact that I'm the idea that that everyone knows Schmidt and which of course leaked out it included things like the Internet archive and Mio and other sites that are generally considered perfectly advertising agency firms with the help of Universal Music but somewhat incredibly the list of sites that universal had deemed dedicated to that you'll really really enjoy them so please please check it out you can find it by going to Amazon and searching for working futures or you can go to people think that there's some sort of easy answer to dealing with copyright infringement that happens online part of the problems it seems that people seem to think that there's are listed I spoke about these the list would be distributed to advertisers. Say don't advertise on these sites and yet everything about how this list and we know that you'll enjoy it so please please check it out thanks our website about it which is working futures which is working future and dot E. S. at the end So if you were seven of the twelve most popular hip hop blogs according to vibe magazine so these are the sites that help promote the music they were declared dead about different things about what the future might be like it's we're really really happy and proud of the stories in the book and we working futures and then move a period two spots to the left you'll get to the webpage and check it out or just find it on Amazon it's easy enough it is and what is not copper infringement only to realize much later that is often not obvious at all what is what is not infringing for example there have been is peas or handed off to advertisers to allow them to block all their ads from appearing on the sites the industry likes to call this approach follow the money is being produced will almost certainly doing the opposite of building respect for Ip at Weipa is keeping the entire process secretive. There's no molest in the first place while I asked Pipo a bunch of questions I got back mostly a no comment or a promise to comment in the future that I don't think process at all sites added to the list or not told that they're added to the list or why there's no way to appeal there's no way to get off the list which isn't surprising since sites don't even know if they're on the database B R I P which what hilariously stands for building respect for P. The purpose is the same as that someone hilariously named three different government agencies and they were all government agencies that we'd previously written about for Being involved in false accusations of infringement anyways Rick Sheera who's a lawyer in New Zealand who specializes in these topics wrote up twitter thread about a former client of his cloud storage company Mega who wants got put on one of these lists despite the site's efforts stopping infringing content on its site and it had a somewhat significant impact on the company so Rick is here to talk about that Rick Welcome to the podcast Isis because these sites know what they've done because the database was built in partnership with government agencies there was no problems to worry about quality actually come except amazingly for one of the engineers who helped build the database showed up in our comments to defend it he told us that there was no duper indistinguishable reason as to why did receive focus from rights holding organizations what happened was that I entirely funded by the legacy industries the MPAA in particular in fact When the Sony pictures emails leaked there was all these emails about I wanNA cat attack for many many years we've been writing about how much damage is done Laura why Mike I'm glad you could you could China so can you tell us the story of what happened with Mega nigger a UK based brand agency in was commissioned by a rights holding out the MPAA Studios Planning and strategizing with the digital citizens alliance to do all sorts of things to sort of attack in And so I'm going to jump in and interrupt your story the digital citizens alliance they present themselves as sort of a grass roots type organizations will the sudden some little time later opened nights Nigga that Nigga as with many of the mini tops but what else having ever contacted the video so organizations that were listed is the report which included my client National Front for a Rock Rustling Organization in Washington DC to research supposedly and come up with a report it is quite a small startup or head some notoriety and given its relationship to Kim Dot Com right and I guess that's the the Aw digital journalism monitor comfy rightfully so tight or a small starting site at the time that was a clancy you know you would have sudden the payment provider that you rely on for is credit card companies to make millions as it was commissioned by the Digital Citizens Alliance US rightsholder lobby group Yeah and so and the motorcycle brand is all the way in which the report was prepared is consistent with that sort of approach your net companies and to blame them for things and to to prepare sort of press narrative that they wanted that they use so it's very much a front group for for Hollywood al we managed to find out from Hypo why they had decided to do this and in unraveling back to they did a report which was the nine foot got so we didn't know about the The Vince at the time we didn't know about the publication it wasn't until cloud storage size it provides encrypted into creatives story cynicism it started in about two thousand fifteen uh literally we nigger received a call from hi pal saying hey look we are going to tim at your service now for was directly involved in this we had gone to substantial links with a conference calls and emails and the provision of information about me infringing because the report which says they're infringing and Soy Visa and Mastercard you must do something about this otherwise and implied ah the report that I mentioned earlier we found that what had happened was that Faiza and Mazda had put pressure on paypal the head convinced them comprehensively that Nigga was not aside law currently for that they could provide civis soggy literally a couple months after having gone through that rigmarole all of a sudden that without maximizes richly laced in twenty four thousand dollars was a report behind the sidewalk outdoor a report on how shadowy sidewalk businesses put on what an ice cold cyber lockers the pre-k to streaming who showed now cool says is not more prevalent but annoys dies which was a later basically picking up this report prepared by nicknames on behalf of Digital Citizens Alliance and say look kilts on accusation it's Itunes the presumption of innocence on its head simply by someone making an accusation. I'm tasted your in house operates to mollify hype pals consumes that Mega might be I saw yeah and what we're trying to stand is funded by the motion picture association similar yeah I was Gonna say that that's an interesting organization that's worth commenting on Oh sequential fly what then happened was that mega tried to convince taipower that five o'clock this way the way in which people talented information and and got material supposedly eventually infringing from sites on the incident New People you credit card companies have caught two more in the spice here are thirty companies that have a clearly obviously must be great we will have to recognize in this area we'll do something further so that was the station of Visa and MasterCard writing to Pipo and in consequence hypo was touring civis from mega so as we have described it in New Zealand win weeping talk about some changes for appropriate awesome in recent times the stands very much and is very much one without any noxious to the subject that they are infringing copyright suddenly these dramatic and very draconian correct way obviously approached by digital citizens lines and nicknames and nights relies for its renew on on time it provided such as pay pal allow the paint provides and other night saga locker we in fact ironically pointed to a particular slides that the the mass do in order to preserve Saif Haba's by the New Zealand in the United States and Europe and so on it takes the Bruce Davis the reason why visa and Mastercard head put that pressure on Hypo was that I had received a letter from senator appropriate in normal steps to not permit infringing content at a tight infringing counting down delayed you'll ribbon you says win long going to provide service to you and it was incredibly surprising because a couple of months earlier we had gone and because the report was prepared and published it was published with great fanfare at I than in the United States you all of what a Cyber Lucca was compared to a standard cloud storage site they terrible irony of that was that welcome to Saad current Wilson to hide him for infringing content it's not the cloud storage system it has infringing content the sites that it was now accusing of being cyber Lafia Parrots ditty infringes and so on profiting from other people's credit that names claiming to have done rigorous research climbing to her Shaked hasely to save says notwithstanding that it is use it controlled encryption suge has absolutely no control and indeed I sight of that it's interesting in the context of this that Nigga is a pretty big side is one hundred and fifty million uses round the world now it has not they listed in the US trade representative's three one report and it report many people would say is the accounts of infringes that finds on that system and it has vanishingly small amount of infringing content that is tonight fly rods holding organizations to put sites that they don't like all net list mega mega has never been on that list so you know one would material until someone wants to share it with other people so you wear Nigga and pretty astounded at how a report from a little now and brandon. Jessie in the United Kingdom could suddenly cool is this dramatic refused to pull the report refused to apologize double down on the fact that they considered mega infringing alive he and his role as shaven all the destroys MRI of the US Senate it is pretty out there entombs of the same sort of accusation against sitting science that perhaps mainly because you know this was considered efforts to try and add texture sites that they didn't like for whatever reason asked them to shut provides them with masses of evidence in the same way that we get provided pipe hal with a comprehensive evidence that Nigga was I think mainly for counterfeiting and things like that but has evolved over time and they they also put out this special of it was initially supposed to be directed at like you know countries that were engaging infringing activities originally was meant this is the most years because this basically as you said rightsholders submit a list of these are all the bad guys and the US appears to sort of take that list Nigga ticked all the boxes of noble cloud storage site and none of the boxes it was absolutely astounding pipe policy if we're we're starting to you which is a complete shop together because now the stage what was going on after expected that if Nigga was this hyphen full piracy it would have appeared on the US list ahead that's interesting actually and again just to jump in real quick just in case people aren't that familiar with the three one list this is a list that the heat the US tr the US trade representative is required to put out every year maybe do a very very quick check on most of it and then republished it as as an official government document and that's created all sorts of that's that's the yeah there's the special three of one less which names countries were bad stuff is happening and then the notorious markets list which is comes out of that extra list also of websites that they consider to be like pirate markets or whatever and the the process here is kind of a joke and there's been a lot of instead presented win that we're doing with digital citizens the reports in the United States which summarized nicely summarized beard very quickly at that stage but that really school and you know this is this could have the fate of killing niggers business downstream problems but it's interesting to hear that that even with that because I'm sure some of the submissions from the MPAA from the AA Probably included wake up to the someone to ship and think of the cat the university course and choosing these pejorative nines or or or reps I suppose but process and and is is officially separate from the full three Oh one list has the one where they name different websites yep the best as I look which which typically represents the very organizations that we were trying to try to persuade but they shouldn't valet should with thousands within the Canterbury we right to digital citizens once we right through Namus by not surprise that is going to proceed whatever we think because we it's Klein by the that they're Andrew Diligence on mega vegetables dieting refused to get Outta the stage make head the decisions tight will Julie Su the that quite clearly the report was effeminate trae it was completely incorrect they had a phrase accounting firm in New Zealand winemakers based and the chances of getting a significant damages award which would have compensated for the that then it's done where on the advice of all swings get some point so the fact that they didn't show up on the US tr lists is at least a pretty noteworthy they would my Torius markets was home teams heads completely missed its iron criteria in terms of what a cyber law is and make clearly for infringing content that we reject the game to digital citizens alliance and tonight names presenting them with those wings findings elite guided couldn't wouldn't be upheld because you know similar to the WIFI device that we're talking about it is I response to submissions quite limited unfortunately Nigga head to just like suck it up it was one of those things that it it once you've been blacklisted and when I say blacklisted clustered by Visa Agnostic we didn't know at the time that the was so it was a significant event the report that was was intrigued that didn't didn't have the desired companies in the World Bank's do look very carefully at she's right and so you know we I can call we've got fourteen amazing stories in the collection they're just really great and we've been getting some great reviews on them with people saying that the stories have really made them think eclipsed the visa and mastercard had it took actually years for us to find out that that was in fact what had happened was this private triple in other words the media the industry the rights holding overnight stations are validly affirm that that presents so we instructive a stadium called all's weighing in the United Kingdom now Patterson who renowned as just head to live with now for luckily Nigga Hayes because of a win which systems with and because of the support for the secret black cliffs that as critic copies had that that was the inmate available not any pile was in enforcement is companies in the United States in the United Kingdom four defamation and decision was tight and look it's just too expensive to do that it's very anyway Typo but also Mehta found it very difficult to obtain just normal dice day banking says it says we tried by your plots out for them Betas to detail says lot since and review NIGGA systems views material on the site and or of as conclusions pointed to the fact that migos not Assad locker and it was not a highland go to see that in a CO person parliament against companies or against injustice such as digital Susan's allies that four diffamation S. Eight will look your your clearly that so we are quite happy to write a report decent analysis like a legal view they illegal view was they executives of mega attending discussions with thanks in the bank's not really telling them why it was that I went we assist from banks in New Zealand inundated say's because you might expect if you'll black mustard by the two biggest credit cards in I did get the report Tekken Down with you know the obvious threat that look this is this is Kayla defended trade of Mega nigger was a small startup contained tries to stop infringement so we thought well this guy for a firm that is not just a a soft touch patsy I I don't want to be associated with obviously was was a entity that was promoting partial contains and they pitch just normal thanking services the was the company was Nice the New Zealand that was a registered company that type of say it was this whether it's and of its users it has survived it was a close run thing at the time I can recall because until we found is this idea that because of the Senate to lie he later Mega hit being blacklisted. So you know for a small experiencing Simpson's accounts and was not a reason that we knew of why these banks wouldn't give servicing y payment companies would have said and in this instance it's not obviously it's not Nigga who is providing the infringing material so you're you're one step further removed from the ability to decide whether I take the pace of content is infringing that's hot enough by itself but to then try and aggregate right some sort of collective infringement to a to a count storage sought on the basis of a sitting and when I saw the Wifi proposal for the databases database just reminded me so much love how the simple act of putting a company died of ice without affording the company G process can dead example and other examples would have night people think about the fact that as you said with other payment providers none of whom are based in New Zealand so you have to you have to find a payment provided who's prepared to provide citizens die baiser Nas Takata another providers will put pressure on time and providers and it'll be sunny you'll payment provider just ceases providing since a have such a dramatic fix that's the story of it sits it's one would have thought hello obviously had contact with meager and with the visa and mastercard I miss I would prepare to take a very robust approach the people who hold reasonable views on both sides of the equation as to whether something is or is not infringing and so it was it was going to be difficult now eventually make it did find payment providers and it's since down that this is quite common just because for me perspective it's just not feasible for them to take a position anti the credit card companies and the middle ear by under jurisdictions like the United States Europe was elands there are came to arguments from Sanish Lawrence and so on so now when you when you think about how that how the impact of that uh-huh of pieces of content being allegedly infringing is just beyond the pile when you're putting something on a list that has I didn't we've titled Adele into until we eventually priced this tortured web right back to to start interviewing mind copyright infringement is not a binary Yucel neier there is a massive gray area in in rather than him just picking up by hand off towns having gone to those links unsurprisingly they didn't feel forced the seats providing new service so that's it's an inch sustained because system and shrouded in mystery society that we very close relationship with the NBA and they they make sure that he appears in every Batman movie is in all of a sudden five taps are turned off it's very difficult to find you know you have to go through the Rick Merle we went with three with pile that it was a good look for them to back down in such a in within the face of such an obvious argument yeah I mean lay he has sand would have been able to point she names aim criteria for cy blocker and very easily shows that Nigga was not if goes had gone so yeah he he did not that was not a he wasn't just randomly surfing the Internet and come across that so we like it was started by Kim Dotcom who certainly has a reputation I mean he's still still in the process of of fighting the the legal fight over his arrest in the shutdown of his former company which had a similar name which was mega upload and so some people will hear the story and they're like yeah to to stay thin or to a series of them available at any one time because you never quite know when one of gotta be cajoled will persuade so four Latin Nigga I since down you just ahead of you need to have a slice of private providers really willing that's crazy right I mean you know whatever one might think of Kim Dot Com and make upload like you know we should be looking at this case in particular now you've practiced around it you would have expected that assistance that would have come to it and say look we we think you're in oops can't flow through to the rate impact yeah and I mean some people look at Meghan as you mentioned sort of very briefly so you know these are bad people they you know it it deserves to be I'm sure it's mostly infringing and and that that part scares me too because I think coach go on accusation what that is guilt by association mega is an entirely different site from and indeed at the time win the date names report was published this dot com has had no involvement McGrath played it was formed in two thousand and thirteen ironically it was Fulham's literally because they were I mean this is a story but because they were the four gentlemen who are the subject of the of the allegations like pre show us that you not even even as bad because he shouldn't have to shy your preview instance that at least we could have contested the Nigga right now he he retired resigned as a director in in truth in October two thousand thirteen his interested Yeah but but you know you know it's sure it's all infringing right and that's that's one of the responses I hear a lot of this which is basically like yeah you know come over and then were arrested in a in a major operation here in New Zealand which was hugely hugely famous mega is an infant infinitessimal interest now because he has ceased to be involved in ceased to one in a bedroom and I will I was at the time because I had done Jerusalem as in that it was it was appropriate to wet for a site that with now tainted with the same allegations and therefore deserving of the sort of behavior by supplies doc now in Mr Dot com despite the allegations has not been convicted he hasn't even the any of the New Zealand time by were sequestered in a literally in a in a house in a suburb of all coons and and mega and what what it does and what it's done and you know whether or not deserve to be on this list I think as is coke has and indeed still in the same house anymore but they Dot since that time an inch I look I I get that gives it an even higher level of you know respect I guess from from people who might see it I mean they think that this is you know this is coming from the respected organization that is you know it's not you know in the case of like the nicknames report or even the built mega in Ave dream in that house I had nothing else to wasting waiting Salihi reputable organizations who are trying to stamp out copyright infringement is just ludicrous now that's that's not true process that's that's go by association killed by action and that's the danger I think with these sorts of died of Isis yeah so the the Wipro effort the idea that simply because I- person has had allegations made against them in the past must name that anything iron vote was clearly aimed at providing a new innovative storage centers it can dot com included with sequestered here in New Zealand because they had come over from Mr Dot com city birthday none of them actually lived in is that Indi- to support that at all I mean the the evidence we have is a Piper from the committee gone to the lengths to publish this report Lipsey of ancient in the United States and we suspect that promoting the report three to essentially I die in court in fact ironically another side story Mr Dot com has a pain to the United States universal report that I talked about earlier like those were clearly from private companies some people could these take that into account when it comes to a database from Wipro it'll appear a lot more official and I think a lot of people assume that there's been more due process and more caution put into making this list and yet there's no seven Nigga side the relationship between Mr Dot com has long since face and head safest at the time so that was the TMZ even more concerning right I mean because you know why tow is associated with the UN and so it's sort of a quasi governmental organization to some extent and that in fact even against Stein's at mega for air because he feels that the new sites that he wants to form I kind of credibility the proposal that why will create not even cry just provides the mechanism for the creation of diabetes the input into that devices might directly as the report from his committee by authorized semesters MISTER DOT COM as wont decided to poke the bear in the polling data mega win the previous committee that is is addressing it usually might up by the committee is made up of representatives from countries allow I should add that Zealand this was a good thing the fact that wipe oh you know he was just like Oh we're just we're just building technology we're just building the tool and you know it's you know we're only potent point that way night two names as well that the archaic it was formed by someone who has a chicken passed as nice to the Internet companies yeah no that was that was sort of my action to and then the fact that like you know he gave the example he focused obviously on the on the government submitters even though as you noted could be dramatic effects for mega luckily it had supporters that now if you're a startup bidding cash then does not advise yeah and and in fact you know the the engineer from Wipro who responded in our comments seem to indicate that the is that you could live in the world apple all of these companies were stopped by people who press pushed the boundaries sorry at that and they'd wipe out one review those submissions for example go out and have a look at the science and see with her of not being careful about the sites that they block and not really having much in the way of due process in Russia perhaps that's not surprising there's nothing in this that that indicates that it has to be government agencies but the three that he name which were the agencies and France Italy and Russia all have pretty checkered ass in terms of the kind of you know in Russian Italy they both do site blocking and those agencies have a pretty long history of NCOA many of us have that that was a silly idea that you get your report you started but that was his that was the choice that since that time I said no pattern at the Brit proposal which I'm on Grayson by because I think it's a bad puzzle it's an endle- does appear to be infringing went up die will simply put it on their forcing him they will promote it to ties us who are the four encouraged not LEWITT's but if if if you are reliant on some to some degree on advertising we haven't seen in the same sort of way that mega was relied and convince them that they've put something on the list that's wrong that's nothing you know we we don't review wages providing Cintas that's incredibly ironic for without any due process based entirely on accusation for is peace to have to blocked different sites and we've covered examples in both cases in both guns for a variety of reasons Russia the Russian government is actually used copyright against against enemies of the current leadership all of these protesters but but you know even more to the point you know there's a lot of both Russian Italy have site blocking laws that allow coming in these these authorized submitters so what's the problem why why is anyone mad at Weipa insist Arnie's at the Y. Potions about it it it's the it was it was a satellite tree listen to how the sorts of these sorts of arrangements sort of relationship multiple times their exams there was an example a few years ago of the Russian government actually using copper and working with Microsoft evolved allow their ads to be served on these sites and if you're an ad driven at driven renews if went on Having Pipe Hal when private providers provide it was service that can be that could be tuned off and so they have a dramatic effect on a site that does should cite it because of course that's the argument that the organizations used to criticize homes they say well look we're just a platform she's of sites that clearly not infringing that are included on those lists and so for why to say like well you know there's no problem government organizations what's what's what's the big deal denise to crack down on protesters and claim that they were using pirated copies of like Microsoft office or windows in order to arrest done that but you know but Weipa itself when I reached out through through official channels are really just like wipe people were not very encouraging I was happy at this engineer came in and explain stuff and then he he got very upset when he realized he probably shouldn't have struck me as is really really surprising and really to me suggested how little thought that anyone working on the database have has actually put into this right I mean they it like so many people they just assume that these things are obvious and easy and and don't even seem to recognize that there might be a problem around you know John's but wipe is using executive the same just providing the bathroom about something to do with us Joe and talk to that in countries of Mrs there is absurd a status full action such as in Pi and defy in the kingdom and so on so basic due process or what actually counts is a site that is dedicated to infringement and so that that worries me greatly and and my interactions with with in an echo chamber of people who all have the same view yeah then you want case they sorts of issues because everyone is in agreement normal sorts of things that most of us would say an appropriate way of dealing with a very complex issue. Yeah Yeah and I mean related to that too really understand how people could arrive at a conclusion that I list like this wing as you said there are plenty of examples if he's having you had no interest in commenting and and basically kept pushing me off and saying well you know we won't comment until until more things are official and I was just like shouldn't shouldn't you be able to names of alleged part sites all night died advice is going to result in anything but false you know particularly stop into the stock instead of starting with Advertising Revenue Cambay quite important in terms of the royal revenues is then insight I just ridiculous you cannot suggest that allowing this interest to put the from the stock so it spirals from their two proposals that in the cold light of Diet and they were reportedly discussed most people would answer press questions before these are official I think our with the best will in the world if he said and you look at the history of sort of innovation around content and the ability to to create and distribute broadcast content you know accomplished it's that becomes to light but the four that were put on the list had the opportunity to make submissions the sums of appeal prices and right the understanding is that the author I submit is going to include the mark solve NPR or it's digital citizens lines right put someone on the list and effectively kill it as it's getting started with no due process no transparency you lose and you know and so imagined with any of those technologies if the legacy industry before anything gets started could just put them on a list almost every one of those new technologies in the days declared infringing I mean it was true radio it was true television industry of Cable Television Satellite Television in the content creators because it gave them new new sources of revenue routes for for distribution and all this kind of thing new channels and you know but it is part of the there's no you know most of those other technologies they went through various legal fights and in some cases you know different legal structures were set up and mess you'd have a few years maybe a decade worth of legal fighting where there would be a mess but each time that would create sort of you know a better world for everybody I mean those sorts of

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