Morning Joe 10/14/19

Automatic TRANSCRIPT

Let me start by asking you about reports at Rudy Giuliani is now under investigation and involving the Ukraine there is some confusion as to whether or not you still consider him your attorney your attorney yes it is a great gentleman he was a great mayor Rudy Giuliani's behavior around the globe running what amounted to an off books shadow foreign policy circumventing the national security process pursuing the since political objectives with people like with henchmen with names like Ebor and love so the picture whatever legal jeopardy or digitally he's the Co host and executive producer of showtime's the circus columnist and associate editor for The Washington Post David Ignatius and Syria forcing the Kurds to make a deal with Russia backed by Shara Al Assad Good Morning and welcome to morning Joe it is Monday October breaking lobbying laws his dealings with Ukraine another lawyer of Donald Trump's now being investigated that reporting and I know he's an honorable man that honorable man is reportedly being investigated by federal prosecutors in Manhattan for potentially eighteenth with us we have White House reporter for the Associated Press Jonathan Lamar National Affairs analyst for NBC News and Msnbc John Heilmann they might be in on the backside of these investigations the the optics of the picture that's emerging of his role running around the globe and doing these things for Donald in big legal trouble yeah and Joe I think you know someone the other night said to me that Rudy Giuliani was like a criminal lawyer except without the lawyer part so yeah in order to keep quiet as expected to testify this week as president trump orders the withdrawal of all remaining US troops from northern Alexa look like a choir boy you have of course is Camp Donald Trump's campaign manager in jail will probably be there for the rest of his life is yes and his lawyer his longtime lawyer white how a personal fix her in jail and now here's Rudy Giuliani under investigation. Somebody said I heard a report today I don't I can't imagine it he's a man that looks for corruption and whatever he does I really believe he's a totally I national security advisor admitted to breaking the law committing of fell and you can go down the list is foreign affairs the testimony just a a preview of what's about to unfold over the course of the week is a lot of detail that's going to be exposed around and and it does not look good for Rudy and by extension does not look good at all for the president who yet again has another one of his surrogates his lawyers end up in jail his fixers end up in jail wow the US and Belize sees US ambassador by now whom the trump administration up is just very very ugly and I think it's one of the safest bets in American Politics Right now is that at the end of this week the situation is going to look way worse Rudy Giuliani that it does sitting here on and since Donald Trump shows absolutely no loyalty obviously there aren't a lot of people that are willing to destroy their life's work for this guy on that Donald Trump's may not be around forever and they don't want to end up in jail or certainly don't want to end up in trouble like everybody else and all trump who is supposed to play down new supposed to lie now saying he's going to actually tell the truth and testify investor on who actually just admitted Monday and of course Jonathan Amir you have a guy that gave a million dollars to Donald Trump who was supposed to play ball with don again increasingly look more like that you know look I think it's the problem for the president right now is that it looks like it's GonNa get worse because what we know about Fiona Hill and we know about this mm says we start another big is it that everybody around him ends up in jail in Toronto it's Nice unbelievable seriously trump administration should cooperate with house Democrats the impeachment inquiry and sixty one percent said the president should not ask foreign governments impeachment inquiry into president trump the latest CBS news YouGov poll has that approval at fifty three percent sixty three percent said that the White House correspondent for Reuters Jeff Mason joins this John Highland it really is it's just remarkable this guy is making that's right this potentially a very damaging week for the president with all the testimony we're expected to hear on Capitol Hill Fiona Hill who episode very recently was top advisor about Russia matters is going to be yes that tax that I said that was written by Donald Trump and I don't know whether the guy's telling the truth or not it's almost as if people understand an adds to this confusion this week for the White House and frankly more pressure on Senate Republicans who now have to face the cameras this Congress back in session this week is and potentially a White House meeting down the road in the exchange in which some diplomats expressed real concern at this arrangement after a long three hour break in the text messages or help with election campaigns I think it's important to highlight this because again the White House really wants to lead that people don't understand hedlund is going to speak later this week and suggest because he's of course been in the news last couple of weeks because he is in those text messages that we all saw that were released to Congress it's not his but rather what the president himself was saying after they spoke on the phone so that of course shake changes the narrative of the story could change the shape of the story completely house needs to investigate are the White House needs to cooperate with this investigation with this impeachment inquiry sixty three legalities or illegalities of it which exist but in simple terms people are like no you don't do that that's not right and of course very important member that ambassador you not only said Donald Trump wrote that taxed that he was quoting also said he didn't know whether it was David Ignatius only twelve percent almost one in ten Americans are saying that it's okay for foreign countries the and also puts pressure on the White House unless they just WanNa see their numbers just continue to collapse is almost two thirds of Americans are saying the white eh interfere with our elections and it's okay for Donald Trump juries doing but the number in this poll that is so fascinating end of Americans say the trump administration Lau should cooperate with Nancy Pelosi should cooperate with Congress should cooperate with this impeachment there was no arrangement here this is all on the up and up the now the reporting is that the ambassador when he testifies for Congress this week is going to say that the quid pro no quid pro quo comment including is the president of the United States pushing the president of Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden a political foe in exchange for military arms. Tom Only hurts himself politically even more so the strategy of the trump administration since the beginning of these investigations has been later today and is GonNa leave the reports are that she's GonNa very damaging information about this shadow foreign policy that was being run as you just said the ambassador to the U. and bathrooms I and in it he's the president has pointing to one of his master saying like no this is not a quid pro quo referring to the alleged deal between Ukraine the United States knowing the truth or not okay fantastic we're gonNA get to more on this in just a moment but let's show you the latest polling that shows a majority of Americans support the see the Ukraine investigation simply as an add on to the more investigation there's a phrase I remember from the Watergate days I believe it was something that always attack the news always blame the news it's their way of escaping any responsibility for their evil deeds well in donald trump's quarry so as they stonewall and look even more Nick Sonian by the day I suspect that sixty three percent number just goes higher donald trump in the equation here and it's very clear just don't you talk to people about it and they just don't like it rubs him the wrong way they may not know about the range ambassador silent comes back and says no there's no quid pro quo here the president has time and time again pointed to that as evidence that look there's nothing shady there's no deal look the people are saying case he's always blamed the news are he's blamed the news for reporting on Muller here this is a story tyrants people that are running white some label illiberal democracies across the world sorry that he's already admitted to in front of a Bank of cameras that yes he's trying to get China he's trying to get Ukraine he's trying to get foreign he desperately try to blame the press blamed Democrats but it looks like Americans are onto him as David Ignatius just said just to try to the fog them to to make people think it's all just this Washington a circus of endless investigations back in aren't going to stop because they see those poll numbers too so I don't think as as as Jonathan and and others have said says president trump orders the withdrawal of all remaining US troops from northern Syria the decision was revealed by the Secretary of Defense yesterday the of we're not going to cooperate and yet the fact that these people are testifying this week the fact that the former ambassador Ukraine testified on Friday sort of the last couple of days last couple of weeks but we also saw last week was a letter from the White House to Nancy Pelosi saying essentially in crystalizing their strategy all of this they're seeing this polling you're certainly right to say the president criticizes the media and lashes out the media when he feels under pressure and that is usually a big part of his strategy and we've seen I WANNA be a part of it this time yeah absolutely and I think it's it's interesting how what what sort of ramifications that has for the White House strategy and dealing with it we're entering a different phase here there is a tipping point in this investigation I think this week we may go over that you know Jeff as and autocrats it seems to be coming down just as the pressure on the president is going up I WANNA turn out to the fast moving developments in the Middle East A- as this continues it looks like every tree may fall because people don't want to end up in jail they've seen the history of Watergate one of Bob Woodward sources said to it was every tree in the forest will fall and I have a feeling that processes what we're beginning to see the as people realize they face legal jeopardy as people I Gordon Sunland a funeral he'll realize they have to testify truthfully because these investigation fourth and the these poll numbers suggest that people aren't buying it that that they that they do want to get to the bottom that they don't Kurds of Syria advancing with the help of Arab militias. US officials tell ABC News and they say the militias include former members of it was at that strategy is already crumbling I was talking to a White House official last week. WHO said this makes it looks like this makes it looks like we're caving so the White House strategy the US is getting out of Syria at the worst time justice Turkey is making rapid advances in its war against US allies Kaieda and Isis it means Turkey a NATO country is using alleged terrorists to attack the Kurds who fought with US troops against Isis for four years and carved out their own unofficial little state in the process now that autonomous zone the Kurds call Rosia is collapsing and who said Turkey's invasion has increased the risk to US forces on the ground there we'll get the latest from NBC News Chief Foreign Correspondent Richard Angles Kurds in Syria fear they'll be ethnically cleansed by Turkey and its militias and Isis is seizing this chaotic moment to regroup told me it's a failure of US values helps American adversaries and gives isis a new lease on life Richard Engel NBC News Northern also an ally of Russia to deploy along the border it's the end of Kurdish self rule here which they earned fighting alongside US forces a US official removed American troops and now is cheering basically al Qaeda and Isis working alongside with dads the Turks and their militias pushed deeper into Syria the big news dropped like a bomb nearly all of the one thousand US troops still in Syria are Lee grids of family members of Isis fighters today broke out of a detention camp a middle this president trump tweeting the Kurds Turkey have been fighting for years other may want to come in and fight for one side or the other let them and tonight facing an assault they cannot stop Kurdish forces called on Syria's president but Charlotte with Turkey to destroy to help Isis I it's just unspeakable help isis westerners they were beheading because of the danger that they pose Donald Trump said they posed not only to the Western world to America and now donald trump basically rebuild their caliphate and to ethnically cleanse the very people that helped destroy the caliphate? It's so painful to watch this if you've had a chance as I have to be on the ground with these American troops and their Kurdish allies I hear from contacts that president trump is getting overwhelmed by requests from Republicans from prominent Republican when he says that the Turks and the Kurds are fighting and we shouldn't get in the middle of it let's just get out of the way of course Donald Trump knows real united the president's either lying or stupid we'll let the president give us some insight into that later on today reading announced by Defense Secretary Marcus Ber plus spoke with the president last night he directed that we begin a delivered withdrawal with no US protection the to me a unilateral sanctions against Turkey today Congress when it gets back later this week is likely to vote those sanctions so trump might try to get out ahead of it just so he must be lying. Donald Trump knows that we send our troops over there because of the rise of Isis because of the is is state because of all the people isis was killing because of all Assad in Syria they believe Donald Trump in this one move is aiding and abetting just about every country on the Donald trump is aiding and abetting isis they believe Donald trump is aiding and abetting Russia they believe Donald Trump is aiding and abetting Iran they believe Donald Trump is aiding and abetting gathering Saturday night that included many senior special forces veterans intelligence veterans there was a mood of deep gloom at the emotion at finally just slammed it we'd now today see the breaking lasts an blood just a brutal process that serious conducting I talked to people in the US military feel a sense of almost literally physical sickness as they try to digest this news I'm told me note it may be too late to put this toothpaste back in the tube even even a trump announced sanctions the Kurds have had to make a decision according to experts who know this area the most according to Republicans ib according to Lindsey Graham this is a guy who is reinventing isis and as the earth that consider themselves to be our greatest enemies right and at the same time the only person or entity that Donald trump is not aiding and abetting right now uh-huh to reexamine this policy before it's too late there was a tweet that president trump put out yesterday amidst a flurry of that suggested that he might impose trump goes ahead and does exactly the opposite with this move in addition to all of the profound strategic global ramifications that this has what he's done blood will be on Donald Trump's hands so they believe Republicans believe as do most foreign policy experts in Washington around the world Republicans have said as Isis emerges and is isis gets powerful again it will be the blood their words not mine where the wholesale condemnation of trump and public by republicans president has invited that and thereby put himself in a position of vulnerability at the the House of Representatives. You're going to get impeached though the road to salvation here is keeping that red wall solid behind you in the in the Senate as long as you could keep all the Republicans line waibel ally and whom they could depend and they had to look elsewhere so that that reality is really sinking in for military and it's very painful for them needs to be attacked I the hardest hardest thing possible this has been coming at us now for many many months seems like a car wreck were watching and himself Joe because you think about you know if you were giving political advice donald trump at this moment we ago you would've said hey Mr President Eh alternate rail politique who can protect them and they turn last night as Richard Engel said in his report to the Syrian regime and invited them to join up behind you standing by you you'll survive any kind of a trial that when it comes to the Senate on this impeachment thing don't do anything alienated Republicans in the Senate and then cancel of the trailer for US military officer the idea of leaving your allies in the field to be slaughtered by these guerilla forces Their family gene the Donald Trump accused Barack Obama of inventing isis because he took he took our troops out of Iraq inventing is here you have Donald Trump Donald Trump Republicans believe donald trump is aiding and abetting isis the rise of isis the Syrian Syrian army is now at the border working with the Kurds because the Kurds decided so hard to say this occurs decided that America was not the lack of guardrails around him there's no voices in the administration or even over at the Pentagon who could stand up to him let's talk for a moment about former Defense Secretary James Mattis and you know Jonathan Hi John John Hayman look back to the two thousand sixteen campaign and see all the times in fifteen and six wanting to push his Polish troops. US troops out of Syria people around Mattis have said that at the right moment he would speak he'd be compelled to talk he would give his of course Americans are with the rise of Isis That that will happen because of this new and Israel Israel has Iran aiding and abetting Iran according to Republicans according to foreign policy experts aiding embedding Vladimir Putin and his expansion is he has created this shocking and really unprecedented for trump in the era of Donald Trump nearly three years he's been in office we've never seen anything like this for James Mattis if not now when very very good it's a good question because again just talking to Republicans of power in the Middle East same with Assad and who is endangered here our allies the Kurds every reason to be absolutely terrified by what's going on here because with our small contingent of Troops David Ignatius that just gives the Iranians that much more freedom that much more power do expand across Syria and Build Bat Bridge to Israel that Land Bridge to Israel that they have wanted for a long time so they could help in every way loudly over this policy you know it is a campaign promise he had made to pull US troops back although flies in the face of course if his all other promise to stop the basic idea was that in this next period the access that's dominated by Iran includes Syria regime of Bouchara loss on Russia missile anti Israeli forces like Hezbollah Joe This is a policy that makes no strategic sense at all about Isis it's one where he was outmaneuvered by John in a phone call at the White House a few weeks ago and he has received almost universal condemnation and it also goes to show again when he when he needs to have solidity his position vulnerability and you know again I think it's really one of the most it's a mystery nion and if needed take on the president yet he is still holding still held his tongue he is still in media appearances even over the weekend has refused to do so so joe my question is this in a week the common wisdom in the Middle East. It's GonNa take a long time to dispel that sense that America is an unreliable partner you know Mattis has not spoken out as as Jonathan Amir said he's held his tongue but if his resignation letter quit it's so it's so averse to his own self interest that it is a profound mystery of what is that actually got into Donald Trump's head at the moment when you decided to to invite this this kind of behavior so we'll see at some point I think there's a story here to be told I don't know what the answer is but it is it is a really devastating thing that he's done one of the greatest maybe the greatest mayor the history of New York he was a fantastic prosecutor I know nothing about him being under investigation Klay but I think we all get the point that the damage that was done by the Syria decision will be lasting all we're going to be talking a lot more who just released new book and did a media tour supporting it and said he didn't want to criticize the president at the time wasn't right this very issue that he resigned over the president about this issue Admiral James Debris disks will be joining us ahead also still ahead on Morning Joe. SNL tackles the past week's headlines with the president and both on the global level and in terms of politics Hamas right in terms of reality is it's a rare issue where Republicans in the Senate feel free to break within publicly and will hurt us I I fear for years to come I was in they ruled Lebanon on Thursday and Friday and I talked to every help us in World War Two World War Two it's kind of hard to know who trump means by US Joe Biden for the first time called uh-huh Biden as the punch lines troves unexplained withdrawing troops so northern Syria saying that we didn't need to defend our Kurdish allies because quote bathed president trump to be impeached and removed from office after he realized finally that that Joe Biden trump keeps attacking was him because he felt when America does not stand with its allies it suffers reparable harm repeated that yesterday be nice if he said it more specific and maybe Turkey to is just going to be on a roll at America's friends have learned bitterly that they can't depend on us and so this is because Joe were finally over our major winter storm for the northern plains but the leftovers of this storm is that bitter cold temperatures waking up this morning to frost in Lebanon politician and one after the other they said things like we pity you we feel sorry for America attempt we're GonNa talk more about the twenty twenty race straight ahead but first here's meteorologist genetic web check on the forecast Janetta Good Morning Mika in country and to try and get a medal and medal with American elections and you see these numbers skyrocketing this is something that through the mid West Chicago very frosty this morning in the twenties with temperatures continuing to really cool off fall below average for the next twenty four hours turns with overnight low still in the mid twenties but when you factor in the winds the feel like temperature in the teens so this cold front will continue to spread ice chunks and in the federal government that's certainly ver-very important that's this week on M._S._N._B._c.'s the oath available now wherever you get your podcasts he put together as Socialists game of bailout of agricultural industrialists sixteen billion dollars after all the damage after Donald Trump's tariff taxes impacted working class Americans after Donald Trump's tariff taxes required that fifty billion dollars in US agricultural products and also includes commitments by the Chinese related to intellectual property and so a lot of talk and a lot of this is not clear and certainly not written down assigned you know the thing John Holliman that is so concerning to me is subscribe the president on Friday announced that the US and China had reached a quote substantial phase one deal on trade that will eliminate a tariff hike that had been set to take effect tomorrow trump said that China will purchase upwards of and its currency trump said the deal would take three to five weeks to write and could be signed by the middle of next month the subscribe to the Msnbc daily newsletter you'll get the best of what you've missed during this unprecedented era of news text Msnbc two six six eight six six the president said that more things had to be worked out before something could be signed so a number one nothing is on paper and in order for two beside it has to be we'll which will cause heavy rain from Texas all the way to the Carolinas Hi it's cater WANNA keep up with MSNBC while you're on the go well it's really interesting the discrepancy between how people are describing it the president as you say is calling it a deal secretary Mnuchin when we were in the Oval Office on Friday watching works city we're back in the mid seventies even for the South and southeast and that's going to continue before that cooler air really starts to spread by Tuesday ah the President keeps talking about a deal but the Chinese don't think it's a deal his own his own treasury secretary and listening to the two sides discussed this said that there had been a fundamental understanding on the key issues well there is a fundamental understanding on the key issues in May something he wants to emphasize because he wants to show farmers in key swing states that he has their back but the Chinese have said before they would make agricultural purchases and then not follow through his dawn to trade and all the damage it's done actually helped to bring about and even conservatives will admit this of manufacture listen then we were when Donald Trump began the trade war yes I I was very surprised to your into Wednesday afternoon in Dallas you're going to be finally cooling off back into the mid seventies by your mid week and we're also tracking this big time storm in the when China walked away from a deal that was nearly ninety percent ready the Chinese have not called it a deal are saying that they need to have more talks and even both sides minutiae it has to be put down on paper and be the president is emphasizing the fact and you mentioned this figure of forty to fifty billion dollars of agricultural products that's US had been set to raise tariffs from twenty five percent to thirty percent on two hundred fifty billion dollars worth of Chinese imports so they're facing it is not saying that it's deal in fact suggesting it's not yet a deal they're just talking right is there what deal is there right now hiring recession the worst manufacturing recession in over a decade every we get this so-called quote deal we are in no better politics by which it makes sense for Donald Trump to have done what he's doing with respect to Turkey and the Kurds in Syria than other is this is this question which is I understand the politics it was not going to mean that at the end of it we're going to be better off in fact it meant almost certainly we'd be worse off and I I've been grappling with the mysteries this morning one of which is kind of the rhetorical politics the populist politics related to beating up on China I get that and how that works with the president's base what I think we're seeing to your point about a manufacturer in your mind about that job in the there's never been I mean Joe Donald Trump famously said the trade wars are easy right and of course there's no literally not a single piece of demonstrable empirical evidence session across a bunch of states that trump has to win if he's GonNa get re-elected is a in terms of the actual policy not the rhetoric of it but the policy here that is producing over the history of the modern economy batard global economy does that suggest that that's true and so as soon as we started down the path towards a trade trade war through all of this farmers went through all of this working class Americans went through all of this Donald Trump started again not only cross another area in which I think the president's behavior is just on the on the facts of it or is incredibly counterproductive to his own interests and it's cost tens of Americans really working class Americans farmers and of course people across the world coming up much more in the US troop withdrawal from northern Syria millions of dollars for working class Americans for all Americans if Viola and again at the end of this what ever quote deal he ends up getting and I know that he will it's going to look no better than how it was before he started so people are going to say wait a second we manufacturing recession as you pointed out and that is making it more difficult rather than than trump to get to seventy rather than making it easier for them and so NBC's Kearse Simmons will join us live from the Turkish side of the border plus Admiral James Stavridis joins the conversation more morning joe in just a moment in West but across the world of manufacturing recession the worst in the decade because of these trade wars and we're no better off than we were when he started this thing which is what of course everybody told him the trade wars are not easy and so he's learned he's learned this and guess who's paid for this twenty four hours we learned that they likely intend to expand their tax further south in originally planned and to the West and so we know that's happening we also have learned last twenty since he is reporting live from Turkey just over the border from Syria here what are you seeing seeing there this morning to to counterattack against the Turks in the north and so we find ourselves is we have American forces likely caught between two opposing advancing armies and it's a very untenable situation spoke with the president last night after discussions with the rest national security team and he directed that we begin a deliberate withdrawal forces four hours that the Syrian forces in ten I'm sorry the Kurdish forces are looking to cut the SPF or looking to cut a deal if you will with a Syrians and the Russians saying that the president of the United States was scared of Turkish forces and scared of other forces and so it was uh failed failed again we care while we're what we're trying to get him back for more than Syria Defense Secretary Mark Espera yesterday joining us now NBC News Senior International Correspondent here seven it's a very terrible situation over there a situation caused by the Turks by prison Erta wont last nobody the Russians the Iranians the Turks the series nobody was going to push those troops those American troops around the border you really did put those troops in an untenable situation the this mistake is so profound and untenable situation and we had to retreat we had to cut and run we had to escape when you've been over there first of all it sends a horrible message across Joe I have been there repeatedly this is the some of the finest military officers and soldiers Turkish forces and other forces which sends first of all it's laughable but also you were over there David and you know green countered They have been backed by awesome power the the problem is that once president trump announced that we were pulling back from I'm David Ignatius I just I was struck by what the Secdef what the clip we just played at the sector you basically have an American Secretary of defense he has been advised by every one of his senior leaders not to do this in the phone call with Turkish President Air to one essentially will end up engaging with the Turkish forces right here in other places along the border or whether a deal has been done and of course in their heyday k yeah well listen just listening to what Joe is saying I've got to tell you we ran into some Kurdish village. He is the chess player leaning over this very complicated chessboard and he is a few steps away from checkmate's in relation shooting series of big new war or get up I believe we have here Simmons back here give us a sense of what you're seeing and hearing on the ground keep things away and Joe I minimum we hear those words from asper they're shocking You know this untenable situation for American and with the plan that Russia has set out four Kabbani behind me here the reality is that Americans in two thousand sixteen voted for America to withdraw and let other countries deal with situations around the world well here that is exactly what they are getting Putin is in charge here in Syria he is as far as we can see at this stage and things are moving very fast fought together against Isis but things are moving so fast here now in the last few days the Turks have been shelling this town troops for the most powerful military but you know in in a way at ground reality that's understandable there is you know they were either going to start shooting Turks and Washington because if he can do a deal that insures that Turkey and Damascus do not end up at war with each other where Americans were stationed before they left and of course the question now is whether those Syrian forces the year well we know that Isis prisoners are escaping because not far from here there is a camp where around then he will be hailed as a peacemaker no matter how brutal those Syrian forces aw they move across retake huge parts of Syria on behalf of president a high me is the village of Kabbani the Syrian village of Kabbani. Now you will remember that village because it's famous famously where the Americans in the Kurds eight hundred or so isis foreign fighters were being held by the Kurds they are now gone missing in that case that many of them were to make predictions about what happens next we may be heading for a truce or we may be heading for a conflict that spreads ages on the way here they ask who where we separate from American television they said Oh Americans you'll chickens so that's the whole reality right here Syria those isis jihadists if they are found by those forces don't stand a chance President Assad will have little taller women and children there's one case for example of a British Isis woman with two children who is now missing who was known as the matchmaker she her Isis Korea involved encouraging European teenagers to come to Syria to marry jihadist she herself married three Isis fighters all of whom died aside so cure this David Ignatius I wanna ask you a question that sure everybody in the region certainly here in the US is worried about and that is the possible core part of president trump space and that's evangelical when you have someone like Pat Robertson saying he's appalled by the president's decision and saying that he may lose the in twenty twenty Thank you very much jeff and joining us now former NATO Supreme Allied Commander Retired four-star Navy Admiral James Stavridis Bonner but now as you can hear it is silent and that is because of this news that the codes I've done a deal with President that we have a commander in chief that is as weak as he is and and cuts and Ron's staff that says oh well we were going to get caught in the middle of four members

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