354. Interview: Boe Hartman, CTO Marcus by Goldman Sachs
<music> welcome to finnick insider interviews as were coming from new york city. I'm sam mall. It's my pleasure to be joined by the legendary bo hartman the c._t._o. And partner at marcus by goldman sachs hello what's up sam how you doing man. I am doing quite actually beautiful whether in new york this week made me happy. It's a good day to be at goldman to be blunt and marcus bo. I want to start here for those that don't know you. I think this is the greatest way to some you up. This is your twitter bio means you wrote this. I did write this tech nerd curious problem solver and i had dyslexia so for all of you kids in school that don't think you can make it a goldman there you go so when when did you get diagnosed with dyslexia. Get diagnosed about seven or eight and the way it was discovered is my mother was a part time teacher in the rural town that we were in and she was reading a newspaper and i was having problems reading but when i sat on on the other side of the newspaper i read upside down backwards very flawlessly and that's the moment she stopped <unk>. We need to go get you tested and within the first day of testing psychologist when he's dyslexic so if you're a vendor and you're sitting across bow at a table make sure he can't see your screen or your notes because he's reading lina all right. Let's let's i know you've done. Oh my god. I know you've done it. That's what makes me laugh. Let's jump right into marcus. I talk about your role a little bit for those that don't know you won. I i'm in the title is c._t._o. And partner marcus can talk to us a little about about what that actually entails has breaking news for you today is that it was announced about a week or two ago that i'll be leaving marcus after a couple of launches and taking over digital shoddy integration for goldman sachs so that'll be a new chapter but the marcus part on the c._t._o. Nope right my my job is because that's actually really cool news. Yeah it's gonna massive challenge and i was really up for the challenge so it's going to be good for you conical but the the what the title was it means is that it goes back for years ago. When i joined <hes> july one twenty fifteen i touchdown which is me and hurry tour employed to what we call. The pre beta which was a morrish mel which i think you talked to you at twenty was here the whole concept of the c._t._o. Role was not only bring engineering to bear but the bring being business thinking to engineering so that we could create digital experience <hes> that had not been seen from the ground up and and ever since then it's been a partnership we went from those a handful of people in those early days to well over. Thousands of people now four years later at four businesses launched. I mean just incredible journey in this industry. Marcus constantly put up as a use case right of here's a bank. That's one hundred and sixty five years old fifty a._m. Yeah that has done it right. I mean it's no longer theory. They've proven that she can do this. I think the last time you're my office in david. I showed you the line of code right the first line of good that we wrote and you know memorialize it because when we wrote loaded at that moment i knew that there was something special because of the energy and passion that people put into new even the early days even the early prototypes of we gotta get this right for the customers customers and the fact that the firm was so supportive of us in that journey you would never thought that of a institution with that much history behind it yeah i mean that's the running joke. I guess you would say that when you look fintech and you look at banking right. I don't care what country you're in that. You've just got folks who are more or less clocking in and sit at cubicles and doing all that and that's what i like about what y'all were able to do. You proved that's not true with success right successes. You actually have customers we have we have customers. Were servicing zain customers of the launch that were you know sitting around today. Watching off and what actually excites me is that not only would we have people we brought in from the outside to bring in fresh perspective indifference. We have a massive community of folks that were already in the firm joining us to help make something different with culturally and productwise arctic wise and technology wise and then so it's been incredible. It's actually been a feeder into other banks in new york to jump in name but that's normal. I mean you have have those natural cycles to where you're going to be working at a couple of different banks but it's it's almost a launching pad right. Oh i think that's outstanding but one of the things that et i've always said and if you go back and talk to the folks on my team i always said that i wanted to create an organization that was recognized as giving people opportunities to grow in stretching into learn and i always wanted to be a place where managers fought the recruit out and everyone always asked me they said why. Would you want folks crazy organization. I said because you get a headline then if you go here on this journey you're going to learn new skills. Then you're going to be valuable. Other managers will recognize that and say they start sending you people saying hey. This person needs a new stage or a new opportunity so it does become virtuous cycle. If you're open to it. I've done a little bit of research on bo. I actually read this recommendation lincoln right yes some good recommendations unlinked in but it touches on what you just said this was written about bo- probably by bo under a suit some of that used to work with both there's a calculated difference between a leader and a leader of leaders boy was definitely the latter. Oh yeah that was good. One yeah i was actually he was the head of h._r. For me add barclaycard you know again. It was just an absolute incredible all time in a different organization very large. He actually helped us. Make it exciting and interesting yeah so outside of one job where you were you. Were we're working with the army as a civilian but a contract with them. You've only done banking right. I mean capital one barclays and goldman as their angelman yeah yeah yeah. That's not that typical. I mean honestly yeah no i i it's funny if you would have told the young version of me sitting in college studying international affairs hey you're going to be in banking. I i would have laughed hysterically directly. What's kept you in it to actually which of the two things that surprised me the most the first one is i've actually been part of some of the most innovative and interesting places. The world capital on. I was there for thirteen years during what i call the golden era right. We were inventing things that didn't exist in credit card market to went to you know barclaycard multinational national venerable bank and of course coming to goldman in of itself as is its own statement so i've had the chance that every time i think my last job was my most interesting job. There's there's another chance the ducal things. The second thing is i actually found that banking not boring banking is about the most intimate interactions you can have with a human outside of a relationship because it permeates everything they do right folks have a sense of fear and foreboding about the financial situation or they franchise situation can enable them to send their kids is a college or to take care of the ailing parents. When you look at that relationship you can see human life cycle right in without it doesn't exist and i think all too often we in banking either. You know become sort of jaded believe hey it's just a process in and out and i think people see banks has not always been there to helpful and that's what i liked about what we came here to do with goeman marcus by going taxes that we really focus on that moment to say how do people reengage back in the banking and feel like hey. This is going to be valuable to me. It's going to help me and and that's actually one of the things it's kept me in the industry. You said this is probably a third of quality of you and when you look back at your career as an outsider looking at you and going through some of the stuff you wrote you wrote on her internal blog one time that curiosities a superpower. He's a great line so that's i'm assuming that's incredibly true. That's what you look for in the people you hire out for the to- yeah so the one things i always do when i look for him. A lot of folks have been asking me through my career. Have you been able to constitute these group group of people that you would never pick to put together and always have these incredible results on the other side of it and to your until the point. We're talking about earlier. You can see where someone my direction. My all teams have gone and do now and you can see that lineage and i always look for two things. The first thing i look for is the person covering my blind spot right so i i good one right so like i don't want clones of me. I want people who are going to cover blind spot in push me and make me think better and you can look at my my teams. We did not do yes-men very often and then the second one is the curiosity is i read a book write for i went to barclays from kaplan and it talked about most organizations get stagnant because because they lose curiosity and if you can help people gain curiosity again then magical things could take place on the other side of it and so always being naturally curious. I snagged onto that the remember what the book was. I believe it was lynch pen or tribes by seth godin okay. I sounds like a seth godin yeah for quote one hundred percent it was either lynch pin or tribes that can't remember number <unk> which one it was because i read both at the same time so let's talk a little bit about marcus again. This is a used case on almost every stage at every conference the story banks can't innovate eight so what's the the short version of what marcus is and is it what you thought it was going to be when you started out. That's that's in question so let's do that one. Yeah i was gonna say coffee coffee. Will you know that's why we give you <hes> so what is marcus right so on the brass tacks what marcus it started off as unsecured installment loans right in doubts apps with platform begin then we bought g._e. Capital deposits the relaunched u._k. Deposits and then of course we're launching a credit card product and we're launching some other partnerships have become down the line so those are the product report in the market but as i've said before publicly when we were actually doing the market research about what we want the launch and without the pain points that customers were we actually interviewed ten thousand people along that journey of interviewing two thousand people what they needed. We didn't find a business case. We found a purpose and that's actually what surprised me the most and the purpose was this people had a feeling of dread and shame about their financial situation so whether it was a focus group whether it was individual conversations or even conversations among us on the floor when we're sitting there late at night people don't talk about the financial situations because there's a bit of shame about like if they're in debt or they have credit card debt or or something like that and what we found is wouldn't be incredible if we gave people the opportunity to actually realize it's not their fault right in in that sometimes life just happens to them and but we're here to help educate them and get back on past so that's where the debt happens. It's how you get out of it counts. That's where that that whole. Media media blitz came from his because it hit us in those interviews and there was an article from the atlantic around the same time that talked about the shame of the middle class and it talked about a guy who made six digits digits and he was living paycheck to paycheck and that we had that tape to our walls. We all read it and and we said we gotta do something about that. So that's what it became for us. We we hammer the concept on every podcast. We talk about jobs to be done actually looking at what is the end customer trying to do. Not what is this product you trying to sell a hundred solving for that solving for that. You have to get in there and really have that conversation. Tell people they can trust you with that one ability. I'm a markets customer right. Thank you yeah incredibly simple right. It does what it's supposed to do yeah very straightforward. What makes it different about every other product. That's out there. What do you think is the secret sauce loss. I think it's just give it all. I was gonna say there's nothing to give. It was simplicity right. I mean agree we for we'll take the the installment loans on boarding process ross's we talked about how not to make the customer get off the couch when applying for in line so at the very beginning of that funnel that attorney we asked for literally four pieces of data. That's all we ask we go in. We do softball right and we can say always say we don't say. How much do you wanna borrow we say how much can you afford quarterback each month right so we're changing the dialogue in that behavioral lynch and nudge right and then we come up with three offers offers that we make actually on behind their twenty five offers that are twenty one offers it said behind it so if someone goes you know actually i could afford a little bit more or actually. I need a little bit more. The next set comes right up and and we're trying to do is to say the shop. Take your time. It's cool then when you select then we take you on the rest of the journey and we asked for just a handful of other information and then that's when we do the book in the u._k. For deposits is something like sixty seconds. You can book deposit account in u._k. Right we we just said how do we just make it simple. Last thing is if you read our oh <hes> f- accuser if you read the information about what fearless loan looks like it's written at a level that everyone can understand. There's not jargon. There's not legal jargon it. It just very clearly. This is how simple lunches keller. This is. What no fees me. I mean like literally. That's what we wanted to do. In it's funny because you'll hear the slot about for example challenge your banks right. This is a podcast for levin espinosa monzo. I'm congrats a hit. I met that joke constantly but it is still funny but i mean i think that is one. The thing that a startling a monzo and others have done really well so simplicity of language and engagement right. I mean that is u._s. Do laugh when you got your credit card all the disclaimers claimer just fall and instead of falling in the trash. They're gonna end up anyways mos last time someone at will you might have read them but long time actually. Have you ever read them. I would oh god it's never going to happen. What surprised you most about the success of this was a success in the u._k. It went really well that that really schalke's so in the u._k. Actually blew my mind so we of course we built installment loans vast. We integrated u._s. Deposited fast the team under colin white and desma data over in the u._k. Building that and <hes> was interesting. I was over there few weeks before launch just helping the team. Get ready and prepare for and we had like fairway. We think we're gonna get this many accounts. We blew by that and like the first six day. You did all right right. It was like lily stagger. I think we're the fastest growing deposit only digital bank in u._k. History or something like that. It was just blown away in that stunned. Sund me what i think is. The most stunning thing about the successes is the way that people have actually you know embracing gravitated the other thing that was massively surprising not not surprising surprising but it was really nice to see is the way the firm has embraced marcus culture. You know the fact that i'm getting having opportunity to go on a bigger impact in the firm. Those sorts of things really tells you that as much as marcus you know is a part <hes> but sometimes we're under a different brand. We are part of goldman. Sachs and goldman sachs really really truly embraces what we've done and where we're going. The name was never hid right. It's marcus by goldman sachs as actually. There's actually case studies on that brandy which is amazing when you think about that but it tells you how weird our industry is the guy who actually came up with that name guide destined cohen who's good friend of mine. Who's our marketing public relations. The guy who just actually took over that same role for all of see my idea which is a part of he actually came up with that name in the shower one morning. He visit one of those lightbulb. He's an incredible guy. He was sitting there thinking through all the names that are coming up to the research and it was like yeah but you want. I want to be on your side you you you wanna have personal relationship and he was thinking who founded the company. Marcus goldman found the camp and what happened is wait a second marcus. Marcus is your friend marcus goldman sachs and that's where it came from. It's it's really interesting not standalone right and yet can but it's tied with the brands you have that hundred and fifty years behind it and yet. It's a completely new. We talked about this a little bit. You said how you sat down on a whiteboard over three days and in you what was the other guy's name greg barry you and greg berries in front of whiteboard in custody each other and hugged and cried for three days and yet when you look at that tech architecture that you put on a whiteboard ninety percent one of his employees but yeah yeah nine hundred and nine hundred and if you look at our original architectural blueprints stevens who's the c._f._o. Who was our patron executive. When we first i got here. Stephen used to joke. I used to with all my architectural diagrams because they all look the same. I said that's the point it just a pattern and those patterns whether it's installment loans or to the credit card platform latte form. It's the same pattern we have eight architectural principles from day one those eight architectural principles are still what we adhere to and when we this is so much cleaner excellent purpose or we're talking about a bank. Everybody don't get excited. He ended the period thoughts the simplicity of that one hundred percent and the other thing. That's really cool. It's not dogmatic so for example. If we need to do something to meet a customer need we will make the active decision. Not the passive decision that it's okay you to take it another choice but let's be active about that choice and then we know we need to come back and remediate at some point in the future so the way it was built also gets a lot of hype. I <hes> not being tied to a legacy to really go on a blank orders yeah and say all right if i was to do this that's one thing now this i do run into throughout my career in a lotta banks as wanting to get on the board and draw out and go. That's how you do it. It's another thing to be able to pull that off. <music> today customers demanding greater value from financial services they expect more agility innovation and security than ever before most financial institutions are held back by the shock of closed legacy systems that limit transparency block innovation and ignore customers demands for nostra has a bold vision you to unlock the potential of people and business they've created a platform for open innovation in the world of financial services with fusion fabric their solution span retail transaction ending and treasury and capital markets on premise and in the cloud start your transformation journey today with financed extreme cyber us the world's premier financial services event is landing in london x._l. Now on the twenty to the twenty sixth of september more than eight thousand decision make his next best from across the globe will gather to shape the future of finance on the opportunities eighteen days for fintech will be bigger than ever specially priced. Fintech tickets are available. Don't miss out today at cyber dot com <music>. How and world did you do that so it was always always a lot of political clout a lot of just. I know actually what was really interesting coming into this. When i was at cap one and i was going to barclays everyone said well. It's easier kaplon because kaplan's a high flying company the and of course it's easy to be successful there. I went to barclays when i was leaving barclays. Come here and i said well. You know you're at barclays large organization. It was easy to be successful. They're right. I tom come here to say okay. I have nothing we have to build something right and quite frankly the thing that i walked in with. I already had written down by the way the architectural the plan the types of software won't use types of skill sets we needed came in also with how denali change your bank like build a bank but how to run a bank so because because my time at barclays really taught me run is just as important as change into coming into it it wasn't i'm going to build it from scratch and try to be impressive to <hes> the technology world i said how do i build the most efficient bank and it's easy to run because i know as you know the especially in retail it's about while being efficient into that was the mindset of walked in deal thing. I always talk about his. I didn't have the three debts. I didn't have technical debt at didn't have organizational debt. I didn't have product and so i could build a team. I could lay out the architecture we want which by the way i stole from brighter people than i growing up right so standing okay on shoulders of giants marking right still with pride say nothing wrong with it and i tell folks. This is amish to those who spent time teaching exactly. That's everything is a remix right one of my favorite series ever. I love that you know what i'm talking. Maybe we'll put a lincoln for that. Yes but it's true reason it works is a reason to work and we were able able to move request. I always tell folks that we dropped the first code on november. The seventeenth of twenty fifteen we booked our first customer on october. Seventeenth twenty sixteen and i i mean in that infrastructure is running. We've upgraded. We've matured but that's running now in those platforms support over four million customers right now so one of the hardest things to do when you seen success success like this <hes> this is very transport's chew and everything is keeping that team motivated keeping the team because you're running so fast exactly there's actually a lot different than the normal banking career and i don't mean that mean came out of it right but it's a very methodical is a good choice of words and by nature. That's that's tough howdy. We do those leader so we're coming on for years alex. If you cannot wait for years and which really in reality is a lot of speed is people that was actually. I was thinking talking about this over the weekend because i knew we were going to be launching some stuff and i went four years and four businesses launched wow that that's absolutely crazy. We'll and that's actually right now career planning and this is your very typical leoluca moment where again like i said you're finding the people that you're giving big stages. Let grow now. They're actually some folks that you're saying hey. Let's go find you a bigger stage now right and there's some folks raising their hands saying i would like a bigger sage and so so right now we're going to that cycle. Of how do we figure out how we put people. The most place is the good news about marcus though is that we have such ambitious goals the firm david thomas laid out those emissions goals. There's no short list of opportunities. There's a lot of opportunities right so it's interesting you take that to your new role. That's coming up which is going to be one heck of a challenge because just about five minutes ago. You said you had no technical debt the whole different view. You've got to put a big x. through that. It's a good challenge. The big challenge that i really like about it what fascinates me is is i get to go learn with the rest of the firm does be in a consumer guy for the last twenty some odd years. I actually now becoming a student again right in that same blog. If you wanna read it i talked about peaks and valleys in don't spend your fourth points proud of me. I was gonna say you know so don't spend a lot of times in the biggest invalid because they're temporary. It's the plot does so. I'm now having to go back in actually mitt. I'm a beginner and i need to go learn with institutional business all about inside the firm and so you know i have to walk in very humble and respectful in start that journey learning that i actually am very excited about and then bringing the markets experience about how we can leverage technology in a new way. That's going to be fascinating right the c one how markets continues to grow. There's so many places that all the reality is you know. Just go read the news right. There's there's a places and a lot of areas that can grow and when it's built the way you built it into the simplicity of that and i like how you quote of it's interesting tech stack doesn't change good sure does make that nice to branch out into these others the industry pattern. That's the right way to build that one of the things we like to do at the end of this is kind of wrap up with leaders. Ask these same type of questions. I'm gonna modify a little bit just because it's interesting for you. The first one is that i love this. I love folks that are like that. I'm actually showing him a picture of my phone right now so his heroes one of mine is anthony bourdain. What am i why oma god so just as a side before i answer that question when he passed watching your heroes go in learning the struggles they were going through the <unk> makes you reflect a moment so i started went back to episode. One season. One and i'm now re watching everything. I'm laughing folks just because i did the same end it just he was such an incredible story. The reason <hes> he's one of my heroes a couple things one is he's not your normal normal success story right. He started out in the back kitchen. He wrote an article which someone should make it into a book. He's very public about his his addictions right. He doesn't apologize for let me just says that was the moment and then when he goes meets with people when he's talking about their culture and their food. It's not some veneer of hey. I'm talking about the food you eat. He really gets into the culture and what's affecting these people which he connects with a big way. I saw the one he did miami literally just the other night him and iggy pop are sitting there talking and it just the dialogue between the two of two guys who saw the sixties in the seventies and they're both wearing glasses to read their menus and stuff it was it was is one of those moments that you go. This is what made him special right because he was unapologetic of who he was and yet incredibly successful for listeners that don't know incredible chef for michelin star french restaurant in new york yes by someone who wasn't french. Just an incredible guy who owns like having a banker had dyslexia who grew up in a small horse farm and like northern virginia right. I mean just doesn't fit the mold as i can see why dane would be a this is a true story showed up to fill allen a good friend of mine who works at lloyds loyd's and their digital team the thing i was used to like to do as a consultant for my clients and we ended a project. I give them a book and always signed the inside. Cover is something fill like to cook so he had never heard of anthony bourdain so i get an anti needs cookbook and signed it the day he died on twitter. He sent me a picture that book and we both teared up. I know going back and watching coaching sessions in my wife constantly says that he left the world too soon. He had more to teach until us. We're like that's that should be a motivation as a leader is that that that really is what our job is like. You said it's not hiring. Yes men yes women and a team like that. It just nod and say what you need. I think that's what will help continued. You don't wanna say kickstart. I think the industry's making changes you know you guys have been in the thick of it for the last couple of years which i absolutely love my time with simon and others back at the barclays you guys have been in the center but what i actually love is. It's never been in the fintech versus the big banks. It's a symbiotic relationship and what i think the fedex did the fedex woke up the banks to say hey you can do different right and i think the symbiotic relationship is actually what's can propel us forward and i think you guys nail with what is is it like transformations like like one percent down or something digital is only one percent not negatively no not in the way of so much to do. We have much opportunity at the runways unbelievable and i i think that's if you take the boarding view like here's a guy who was you know a chef in. He wrote an article in it hit a chord he drove through oh. I think that's what big banks have opportunity to do with the tax. Write is fine that corden drive it through all right. This will probably be a tough question to was the best career advice. You've been given just at best advice period. Wow what will bill period <unk> there. There's a lot there. I'll give you the career advice because that's the easiest one off the top of my head so when i was thinking about what was next at capital one lynn pike who was the president of kaplan retail bank at that time she came from survey california star wars injury incredible leader lin actually said something to me one day when i did this piece of work directly for her at the end she said you know abo- <hes> you need to go scare yourself again and that's a good quote and i said what do you mean. She has you could stay here and you can have a great career for the next twenty years and it would be a good career. She was but i see inside of you that you have more to give. You just need to go scare yourself again and just that paragraph from her. Then set me going well. What does that mean. Where should i go and i did a mind map or the golden books came up and failing forward in a couple of major books which made me start thinking about what does that look like which then led me to ended up at barclays which led incredible work i did with derek whyte. There and jabari happened safari and the others which led me here to do what i consider my best work but it's not my last work and so for me that's kind of the journey she helped kick off off in that very simple paragraph some curious looking back so again grow virginia and west virginia <unk> w._v._u. Why by the way oh curious some. I always tell people all my family's first generation refugees from west virginia so even even that grew up even though i grew up in in virginia i was the first one of my family born outside of west virginia in virginia and spent all my time child backup visiting family. My uncles came back from korea and they went to w._v._u. To finish their studies but mid all americans there and my mother said just go visit the school right just go visit school and i went up and visit school. One weekend ran into some friends of mine. They're already going there and and i just i fell in love with the campus. I fell in love with the people of already connected to the state. I went there and it was mostly koerbel for years of my life. One of my heroes arose also graduated. They're john chambers and so whenever i have a chance to john and i <hes> get to connect once a year with a company that we're both involved with he walked up to me said you're the fellow west virginia mountaineer and we talk about the state and all other stuff in it so that talented there and to this day at where west virginia hat ever since i've graduated always head west virginia had no matter where i'm out on the planet someone will always he's walk up to me and say i'm a mountaineer and then the song country roads. It'll still make matera. Europe has no clue what we're talking about. No actually biggest i was in. I was in kissing in germany in nineteen ninety four ninety five at a festival in this giant beer tent ten thirty at night packed with people and all the sudden country roads being played by the band and every single person in the tent was was singing at the top of their lungs and it was one of those moments where you just go. Wow you know that is that that transcends everything so when you look at the young talent at this coming out right now i'll i'll we continually hear about is the the brain drain going out to the big tech and you live in austin so you see it right austin in quotable bull town when it comes to tech talent and going there but for several years that's all we heard from stages the danger of losing this talent to the technology companies and not into banking. What would you tell these folks coming right out of school about actually looking like a goldman for example he actually last year. I actually did a small article and entrepreneur procure dot com around just this topic right and it's it's what we were talking about. One time i tell folks if you really want to have an impact on people's daily lives actually matter banking is the place to do it right in banking needs the talent the needs the innovation needs the energy and passion to come and be a part of that some for some reason along the way banking at this this reputation as boring sleep be you know organizations and i go no if you really wanna know how to help customers really changed. Reveal is banking is the easiest way to do. It and that's what i tell folks is that if you wanna have impact this is the place to come. Do it and goldman going to be honest with goldman's an incredible place to be the talent is off the charts and some of the leaders. I've been able to interact interact with i've learned so much and it makes it back and go wow. I thought it was okay before but man. I got a lot to learn. Let's one of those you know for me. I've got several real news feeds. I i have and i've got keywords that are tagged and marcus would actually obviously being one of them. I would highly recommend you follow good places on twitter because it's pretty darn funny earnings bo hartman never call them carl. Never call your call your wife mother and now actually really funny well <hes> when i know someone calls me carl i know they don't know me eh for the first thing and then the only time my my mother of her called me carl apartment. The second is when i was in trouble and so it it's always a good reason well. Both hartman on twitter is a great account one worth following. Everyone thank you for joining us today. You wanna find out more about as follows infantile insider take a look at the site released a foul follow me on twitter interim samuel. That's pretty easy. Thank you for listening. If you like what you heard subscribe to the podcast reviews on i tunes we love reading. Those reviews pass podcast longer friends. I think that's one of the best thing you can do do pass. It's like a good book. Okay pass the podcast. If you know someone who lives fintech and it wasn't listening fintech insider. Tell them to hurry up. Start listening to the show and subscribe. Thanks for listening everybody. Nobody talk to you next time.