Bonus: Survivor Season 40 Finale Discussion
What's up it's Mojo story and who is ready to be petty? I'm back with another bonus episode of RTP. Where I discussed the recent survivor. Forty finale was superfan penny. We did another bonus episode last year. Discussing the premiere of Hannah's patrons even with Mason and Robin if you're enjoying these deep dives let me know what else you WanNa hear about before we get started. I want to note that although we talk about the finale we are primarily talking about how gender dynamics play out on the show and how they impact the game. We also discuss recommendations for the production of survivor to ensure that the game is fair and equitable for all of its players. We also WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE. That penny nigh both identify as intersectional feminists which means we are fighting for equality regardless of someone's race education sexuality ability or costs we know we all contain multitudes and that your life experiences are based on your multiple identities and how they intermingle we also know that they are compounding forms of discrimination by certain groups of women. We WanNa make sure that the type of feminism we practiced acknowledges our pledge and is inclusive of others one of the limitations of our critique of the show is that it is coming from the perspectives of two white women so we would love to engage in a dialogue about survivor and the recent seasons and it's discussions about gender. So if you have any questions or comments message me on instagram tradition. Face Buck I would love to chat you can find us at RTP podcast on all of those platforms. Okay let's get into the show. Okay I am here with a very very special guest. Who wants to talk about the season? Finale of survivor. Forty welcome penny. Hi Thank you super excited to do this. Good I'm so happy to have you here penny and I just connected over facebook and she wanted to chat about the finale and Gender Dynamics in survivor and I thought it would be a perfect time to chat now. That season forty is wrapped up in survivor. Might be on a pause for the foreseeable future about. I know I don't. That's something I don't think right. How did you get into the show so I started watching when I was fourteen? I WanNa say I was. It wasn't the first season I know. A lot of people watched like the first either up until now or are they watched like the first and second then they just stopped i. I'm pretty sure I wasn't allowed to watch when it first started and I ended up being really into the game. The sins and this is a bit of a long story but I'll keep it short. Basically I discovered online in the students community. People were like recreating survivor within the Sims. So actually really into that without ever watching the show and then I basically was reading through all the descriptions of the challenges and stuff and I was like. I should watch this show so I watched Russell Hansen season season nineteen survivor Samoa. Yeah was my first season and I know people have a lot of mixed views on Russell Hansen. But for someone who just started watching he was a really engaging character and it was very interesting season to start with and then it was immediately followed by heroes versus villains which is like one of the greatest seasons ever so it was like a perfect intro into survivor. And I've been watching almost every season sense. I think the season after that that I haven't watched was the fans versus favorites too. Just couldn't get into it but other than that. I've watched almost every season. That's amazing. Yeah I got really really into it and then I kind of had a that like you said you couldn't get into answers as favorites too. I kind of had a period where I wasn't watching like during university and stuff like that but then like weirdly got back into it because of my parents who watch it and then like it's been nonstop since then so. I think I restarted watching around. I think it was tastes in season. So win so twenty seven. I believe I'm not as it seems like you really know all your seasons and when we were we were chatting before discussing what we wanted to talk about today and it was like well. She knows her stuff I casual. That's the other thing is like survivor. I'm always like embarrassed to bring it up that it's a TV show that I still watch but It used to be way more quiet about it. I think I may be mentioned it to one person before like my adult life and then I I started dating my current boyfriend and I was watching it. No Mirror we went because we traveled a lot and I think one day he just started watching with me and he was like this is kind of interesting and so I was like. Oh yeah you know. I watched survivor so the point that now I think like maybe a year ago auditioned for the show. I went to one of the open calls and I was just so excited about it that I kept posting it on social media and a surprising amount of people were like. Oh that's really cool and I was like I should really like ask around more people watch it and I just got super into it this past year and I got really into the read it that talks about it and just got a little bit obsessive. Yeah Yeah I feel that way too. I I've also been posting about it more on social media and it's surprising you're right like how many people actually do watch the show lake. I posted something on my instagram stories. And like people from that is met throughout my life like in different cities and different friend groups and stuff like that. We're responding back to me of like Like it was like a Bingo sheet tape thing and it was really fascinating of how people actually a lot more people than I thought like like watching the show and I think we're kind of in like this Renaissance Period of survivor. Where at least for this season that I found a lot of people either coming back because it was a returning player and winner season but also because there hasn't been a lot of live like sports or like other competition shows do the current a virus. So I feel like we're also getting this influx of new watchers. Definitely definitely I know There's another show the challenge on MTV. That I mentioned to you and I like to describe it as like survivor. But with TRASHIER PEOPLE. It's basically people from the real world and it's basically like MTV's version of survivor but they get to live in a house and they drink a lot of alcohol and you know they all are having their own thing but this season that's happening right. Now was the first season where they had someone from survivor. It was j from Gen-x like a perfect fit but everybody loved him so actually a lot of people who watch the challenger now watching survivor either. So there's kind of crossover happening there which is cool. Yeah I love that. And you're right. It is kind of like a seamless transition for survivor. People to be on a show like the challenge and like the amazing race and big brother. Like we've seen kind of some people that can crossover and Yeah that's a show that I really should get into. I remember watching a few seasons in high school and like essentially when the real world was really big and so it's not something I've kept up with but I do love the light cult following and stuff that it has. It's definitely become way more about the athletic competition like when it first started. It was all about the drama and the drinking and partying but at this point. I mean you really can't be on the show if you're not a serious athlete like all of them. Spend the offseason training really timeline. So it's it's definitely changed a lot. It's almost like they edit it to be like an action movie sometimes. Like it's then Natalie our girl not by for the TV. She'd be a perfect fit. I mean she's not asked dramatic but she would know you so well yes she would like hills some of those challenges and yeah she. She's definitely not dramatic in the sense that the challenge people are but she won't take Shit and like I feel like yeah for sure. It'd be perfect. Yeah definitely definitely. So what? Were your thoughts about last night's finale. Every finale I always want like the underdog to win so my heart. I was rooting for Natalie. But like in my mind. I knew Tony would win because I he deserved it. Like one hundred percent deserve to win totally. But it's all fine when someone comes from behind and you know I one out and then she comes back. Like what are the odds But overall I felt like it was a really well edited. Finale I love I. I don't know if I loved that there was no reunion but I thought it was the right choice. Yeah yeah that was like so shocking to me. I definitely thought it was the right choice. Because I've found with this season and a lot of modern survivor. There's so much content because the game moves so quickly and there's so many things that you have to keep for the edit like finding idols and a lot of the strategy or like a really cohesive storyline has been cut from the episodes so I was so excited with others. Finale it was I honestly think three out like the best hours I've watched of modern survivor. I thought they did a really good job but yeah I was missing the reunion. I was like why did they put out all of those cameras. They had everybody there and then like no one even got to talk. Yeah I what we were saying when we were watching it is. I feel like the part where Jeff was talking to all the people from the edge after the competition and he was asked what their experience was I was like. This is an acceptable replacement. I think for the reunion really hearing like you know their feelings. In that moment I do love the reunion because I love to hear like what's different afterwards. I feel like most of their lives. Probably haven't changed after this season versus a normal season. So who got the money? That's what I want. I know I know I know me too. Yeah I actually agree with that because I I often hear in the survivor. Like press coverage. Like all the PODCASTS. I listened to and you read it and stuff like that when you get a question on the reunion. It's like not even cannon because you've had time to like prepare or mull over or like build your own narrative of of what you think happened where you're right with the in the moment questions from Jeff after the edge of extinction challenge was. Yeah like really raw and emotional and I really really enjoyed. I was crying so all my gosh me too. Yeah it was beautiful. But I really appreciated the finale Overall it was a good season. I it's definitely not like my favorite which I think when I was coming into it. I just had such high expectations because of the types of people that were playing. And like it's like oh my gosh. These are classic people that I dislike love and who really created what the show is today and I really do agree with you that. Tony is deserving. But yeah like I don't think it was like a top ten season for me. What is your favorite season of modern survive rights? Kagi on which is like we are a hot. Take now that Tony One and I don't even think that in-necessarily was because of Tony. I just think it was a really good like entertaining and season like the ruined through and a satisfying winner and stuff like that. I find other seasons of modern survivor. That I really like don't have that satisfying and dean That I'm like looking for which I will talk about later. Which just like who's been winning lately and I think that that like caps it off but yeah what's your favorite season actually didn't think about it. I know what my favor winter is. Kim But season is out my favorite super bowl. I mean I it's Cliche but probably heroes vs villains is the second one I saw. I just think it's full of so much entertainment and so many great moments and it's like I I personally don't love the way that it ended But I felt like it was such a great journey and I do think a lot of survivor is about the journey versus the destination to the point. Where sometimes I feel like it doesn't even matter really who won as far as entertainment. You know obviously to the people who played at matters but you know for someone washing at home. The winner doesn't matter as much as like the and the journey. You've got to see along the way for sure and like their moments and strategy that I love that have happened in seasons that I wouldn't even think of my top ten or anything like that but I I think when I am watching and like I am just looking for the entertainment probably and so yeah things like John. Here's versus villains. Like those are just like every episode is so strong and yeah so exciting so we started with like a crazy season. There was the edge of extinction. Twist where we saw. Natalie come back. I thought that was like wild. Just when you're thinking about this season and then thinking about edge of extinction Chris Underwood one where both of the players that came back at final six made it to the end. Do you think that that's like if you're thinking about game mechanics? Do you think that that is something that we'll see again? Do you think that will always happen if someone comes in at final six that don't make it to final three? Yeah I definitely don't think it's fair to bring someone back at final. Six is way too late in the game and we were really surprised that they did that again. 'cause I just feel like especially I mean I know. They didn't give her the idol. She bought it but with an idol coming in at six you only have to win one immunity and then you can make it to four and then you just have to make fire totally. I had a no. It's just timing wise. It's a little too easy. I was thinking about it yesterday. I think and I really. I preferred Redemption Island because I felt with redemption island. At least you know they would only interact with one person at a time and they mmediately compete or three people at a time. That was Tyson season But you know they would immediately compete. Someone would go home and they were all you know hanging out and talking about. Oh what's going to happen when you get back in the game and strategizing and talking about what's going on to the point where you know With edge of extinction. You're like Natalie played an incredible game but the argument is like was her game still survivor or was it a different game because if the question was just like who played the best game on edge of extinction. Obviously she won that. But I don't think too many people that was really survivor totally and I like never hold it against the people that come back like Chris or not were tasting or rick or whatever like I never want to hold it against them. 'cause they're just playing the cards that they were dealt and that was the game that they were given and they maximize like and took advantage and worked really hard to get where they were. But yeah like I am such a sucker for like classic survivor and I think the edge takes away some of those things like having to present your argument to the jury like not had such an advantage that she got a hang out with the jury so they knew about Most of her like advantages in game play from the edge. I know that she detailed it in the final tribal council and like people. She kept some of the pieces a secret from the players at the edge. But yeah I just think like. It's such an unfair advantage and I think that if she was hanging out on the edge. But there's nobody there I don't know if she would have got four votes and like seeing with Chris like if he wasn't if he was on a deserted island that was the edge They're all separate or something like that like I don't think he wins right to those. Yeah that you're creating yeah. It definitely is complicated. I feel like Chris's win. Definitely was based on the bonds that he made on edge. I almost feel like Natalie's votes were more based on outside bonds although I feel like her in poverty because it was poverty Ethan Tyson Jeremy that voted for yet and I know she connected with poverty and Ethan on edge but I think I saw somewhere that she entice already close and her journey obviously pretty close already. So you'll like that definitely played a part. I don't know I Like I said I was Kinda secretly with my heart rooting for her. Because I do like she with like you said with the cards she was dealt. She played the best game she could have. I didn't think it was fair at the end for them to be like. Oh you should have gone against Tony. Because if she didn't think she could be Tony and fire making like you know what was the point ask that was also something that stuck with me too is like. I think it was Boston. Rob And just like some other members of the jury that were just like adamant of like. Why didn't she take on Tony at the end? Because I'm like because then if she loses she like she doesn't make a final tribal and I think like one aspect of people that are watching from their homes like she would've if she didn't think she could beat him at fire making. She goes home but she also loses out on a lot of money like they get paid per placement and how far and well. They do so even if she thought like okay. Maybe I won't win the game but I like. She probably made so much more money making it to final three than going out or second making a second place versus fourth right and. I don't know how much they were giving second place this time but I believe normally it's one hundred thousand dollars. Yeah it's it's like quite quite a bit of money I and I think like third places maybe around like fifty thousand something like for for many people that is like life changing money right. So yeah I I didn't. I didn't think that that was poor. Like a poor decision on her behalf. I definitely felt like And we'll talk about like gender dynamics and a bit but I do feel like that was a bit of a like. Oh you should like be a man and like prove easy. I just felt kind of like the masculine. Like thing to do is to go in and base Sur enemy yourself and I felt like she was making a logical decision to send someone else in there. So you wouldn't have to go home so I just didn't like the Kinda intention behind it when Tony said it initially. And then when ROB said it. Yeah totally yeah. I agree with that like I think. Like the logical choices to know your abilities and what you can do and what might be risky and like I think that that was the safest choice like obviously if we look at it and look at the results like maybe it didn't garner the result. She was looking for. But if you're thinking like logically in like if that would play out time and time again like that really is the right choice. I think it's that it didn't work out this time. But another big thing from the finale. Last night I think was Michelle Receiving Zero. Which is so so so sad to me. I. I was so sad watching her face on the votes got red and he was so sad. Like y'all like that realization. That was actually something that I was curious about. Because in my kind of like understanding usually most people know where the votes fall like. I know it is supposed to be secret. But I think like people kind of understand or like pick up on things or whatever and she seemed genuinely surprised that she didn't receive any votes. Yeah I don't know because I I saw a little bit of an interview that she did afterwards and she was saying that a few people told her that they were going to vote for her but they didn't because they thought that it might end up giving him and Natalie and I don't know to me that kind of sounds like first of all. It's odd that they would tell her who they voted for like. That's kind of you know but I'm sure they do that receipts but second of all. I don't know if I actually believe that. Or if they just said that as like a reason you know to make her feel better. I don't know yeah yeah. I don't know what it was but yeah that is sometimes a jury strategy of like well if I vote for this person because I kind of know where the juries headed most know generally the direction it's going to go before final tribal council just in their discussions at Ponderosa. A lot of players will be like well. I want my vote to count or I don't want I want this person to win and I don't want to disrupt the like we could accidentally like all have the same thoughts. Vote for Michelle. But I do want Tony to win. So sometimes people don't do that but I thought that she deserved visits from specific people and I hope that this doesn't take away from like the really great job. She did this season and and I know that it was played out a little bit throughout the season of her. Not Feeling like she deserved her win and I really hope that she can see just like what a great player that she is. Yeah definitely and I yeah. It does suck because so much of her narrative during the season was feeling like she hadn't deserved and then like coming back and feeling like she did. And that was really interesting to see and I think we'll talk about that in a little bit too like I feel like it was mainly female winners. Who talked about feeling like they didn't deserve the win her solely amber talking about it at the end So that was really interesting to see like that awareness of what people perceive as whether they deserved it or not. Yeah Yeah I think that's a really good point. We often saw that from women or Doubting their win and their accomplishment and I think that comes from a lot of different things that play out on survivor and I think like in terms of modern survivor gender gets talked about so much more than it did in the past and I think sometimes people think like Oh. This is a new thing a new thing on survivor but like obviously like power dynamics and systems and game mechanics that favor Men have been there since the beginning and I thought that it was really interesting like Sarah's speech last night to Jeff fend the jury in the players about The backlash that she received from the audience about her lying and being deceptive and the internal goal that she had about like m. I A bad person because of these things that I was doing and I thought yeah. That may be a good place to start. Yeah I definitely thought it was interesting I will say I felt like I totally understood where she was coming from. But I did not feel like that was why people would have voted for Tony over her but not to invalidate what she said. I still think what she said was accurate. I just felt like it was maybe not the right now. The right thing to say to the jury at that point because it's basically saying Oh jury you're all excess but I do think definitely like they've said before like survivor definitely is a reflection of society in that way and I do feel like masculine traits tend to be rewarded and feminine traits tend to be seen as weakness and I think you see that a lot in survivor. Where the person WHO's the winner? Generally people choose them winter because they had aggressive gameplay like that's a really like Buzzword They like to pick the threats you know. They like to pick the people that win a lot of challenges and find a lot of idols. They go out there and they you know they hunt for the idols and there will like pushing their moves and they're making things happen versus the people that are sort of quieter or behind the scenes nerve way of doing. It isn't really respected as much so I definitely Kind of went on a tangent there but no I think it definitely relates back to that and I do feel. Do you feel that. Sarah got a lot of backlash for a game. That she played. That was very similar to Tony's game or really anyone's game. That's one had it aggressive gameplay and I felt like the reason that she one was because she played more aggressively because that seems to be the type of game. Plan that people reward at this point so for people to react like that to hers and not like that someone else's doesn't seem fair at all. Yeah it's like you are blamed if you do have aggressive gameplay and then you're also blamed if you don't like at least that's what kind of she was kind of illustrating for us and I think like you're totally right like a lot of leadership Qualities that people think of in survivor like corralling groups and making decisions making executive decisions and stuff like that are on behaviors that are associated with men and masculinity and. I think it's just a lot of these things that people fall into these more traditional rules and the ones that are often rewarded are the ones that men are allowed to do or expected to do in real life and on the TV show for sure. Yeah there's also when we we talk about yeah these masculine traits but also these feminine trait sleigh being maternal Or you know like being a good friend and be nice and stuff like that with women. So when women backstab or lie or cheat their painted in such a harsh light Where you see man like Sarah's sane. It's applauded for this aggressive game play but I think women yeah like they. They get bitter juries because people are assuming that you'll act this one way and if you went against that then they're pissy you for it for sure and I feel like to the I was thinking about this last night as I was going to sleep two of the really good examples of just sort of that contrast were Mike Would have worlds apart versus. Momma's see and then Ben versus Chrissy in. Heroes Healers Hustler's I felt like they were two very similar. Sort of scenarios where Mike ended up basically winning immunity and finding idols and made his way to the end that way and then did basically the same exact thing versus Momma's and Christie had more sort of social games Christie's I feel like was pretty strategic. I haven't watched it in a little bit but I remember both of them. Were definitely like making moves and they were running the game and if you respect that kind of game play. They definitely deserved more votes than got but it does seem like the jury is really like that sort of flash. She underdog kind of play. Where it's like. Well you're the targeted guy. Everybody wants you out but you keep playing these idols winning immunities and we really respect that you made it to the end which I totally get and definitely. When I watched the seasons the first time I was like OK allies. They deserved it. Even though I kinda was hoping that Mama and Christie was went with Just sort of like well you know they really earned it but at the same time if if your game is all flashy physical you know idols. And you don't have any grasp on the social dynamics then you. Are you really even playing survivor? Or are you just sort of going on a scavenger hunt and doing really well in physical challenges? You know totally like if we think about what survivor is. It's a game of social dynamics and navigating those and voting people out but still having them vote for you to win at the end. Am I don't get this new era of survivor where it is a lot of the merit of winners is based on these big flashing moves and these? Social Games That often like these women that you're talking about Mama see in Christie and Michelle and south. Sarah have on lock that allow them to navigate. Those dynamics and make social earth strategic moves to make it to the end and I understand that like flashy moves and stuff play better on. Tv possibly even says she in kind of our culture now where everything's bigger and better and more and faster like I totally get that it plays well on TV. But I just don't understand why get such a bad rap or is so valued compared to this other tape big game play right and I definitely feel like a lot of it for me comes back to just. I think the players of survivor have created over the past ten seasons a mass area to win and a lot of it has to do with like building your resume as they've made up that term and like you know dragging a goat to the end didn't stuff like that you know having a meat she'll like there's all these different terms that people they've just become part of the survivor rene killer and so. I feel like at the end. The jury just sort of is like okay. What does a winner of survivor look like and they just look for that person that fits the mold best and I don't feel like that's how it started like I really like about the early seasons? They were still sort of like there really are no rules as to who wins. It's just sort of you. Vote these people and then they pick a winner and it's not like you have to pick the person who played the best game you don't have to pick the person who had the best strategy you just get to pick a winner of a million dollars and so I feel like initially. There was a more balanced voting system between social game. Play and more aggressive game play because people's feelings get hurt or they wouldn't respect the way that someone played like you look at a season like Somalia which was my first one and Russell hands played a very aggressive and he was playing all sorts of idols. He was like one of the first people to find him without clues orchestrated all of the vote outs. Or he was at least part of them and in the end they ended up voting. Offer Natalie White and you know you could argue that. She really didn't do that much of what people would. Today call a survivor winner and she built relationships but I think if that season happened today probably he would win because people think that's who wins survivor but I feel like her way of playing was just as valid and she deserved to win just as much because that was her way to get to the end totally and I find it interesting even just thinking about goats or people that make it to final threes. It's like will. They did something that you didn't do. And maybe that they lowered their threat level enough to make it through some votes or they won. Challenges are like. There's something that they must have done that. You didn't do to make it there and I think yes maybe some times were like. I'm definitely guilty of this of Lake. Absolutely like obliterating. Someone's game because I don't think they deserve to be in the final like finals. But we're also only shown a small portion of what people are doing and I find that a lot of those similar moves a they're harder to convey online or on. Tv like it's harder to set up a story or Show intricacies of relationships through just confessionals and then the footage but also yet that people might find that boring nowadays like people talk about going back and watching old survivor. And it's like this is so slow. What even happened in this episode and stuff like that and it's like probably a lot but right now it's filled with idols and advantages and stuff like that. So you lose the. I Dunno integral piece which I think honestly is the backbone of the show. Yeah I completely agree I think at its best. Survivor is really about that. Dynamic of strangers having survive with each other and trust each other but at the same time vote each other out so it's really like that balance of trust in DC. Which is really interesting to watch. And I do feel lake pre idols. That was more the narrative and there was a lot more of like telling people are GonNa vote 'em out and stuff like that And now as time has gone on it's gotten a lot wonky or and eventually you look at last season island of the idols. There is like a new idol. That was getting play and it was just a bit much to the point where you're like. Is this even the same show? Yeah Yeah I thought you brought up a really interesting Point earlier about what? People's conception of a winner looks like. What do you have to have on your resume? What do you like what? What are those boxes you have to tick to be the winner and I think that a lot of people it carries on season after season of what people think is legitimate and I think yeah the way that it spin going like like speaking of Ireland of the idol's like haven't thought about Tommy since the finale and people like absolutely shit on his game and I thought that he played a good solid game and I think like a lot of people like middle of the road players? Are the ones that win. Because a lot of people. If you're almost like too good I say in air quotes. You are often spotted and voted out early. Yes I feel like. It is the these of like all around middle of the road players that win. But it's like haven't talked about him in ages because he kinda did play like one of those classic games that was built on like relationships and stuff like that. So it's interesting of like he's kind of disregarded good winner because in this new era they're such stringent criteria. Right for sure for sure and I do feel like part of the reason. I didn't love him as a winner was just because of everything that happened. Non Season Thirty nine and the affiliations that he had and I don't know how much he knew about what happened. Or you know whether he believed certain people but just ten being in an alliance with Dan. It was really hard for me to like root for him at the end absolutely totally. Yeah that that season. If you didn't watch there was a contestant who was nonconsensual the in inappropriately touching another contestant on the show and he was eventually removed but it was like way too late in the game and handled poorly at the time and and even post survivor but the show swiftly moved onto the season forty with. Yeah it's a good thing that There was kind of this more like uplifting season right after but it is unfortunate that like often these things get brushed under the rug. And just like okay like we had the finale so like let's move on so Dan's Filo the guy who was appropriate touching the girl's he was the one Anyways he came out and apologized afterwards. But it's like at that point. The season was over. Nobody was really talking about that anymore. It definitely wasn't a season that was like going to be talked about for the ages. You know it's like the the season we're all GonNa try to forget. I think yeah totally. Yeah because it was like traumatic for people and really hard hard to process. I think and the people on that produced the show. Maybe didn't set us up for us to really watch that season and I don't know do well lake. I think that yeah. I do feel like there should have been. I don't know maybe a little bit more of a warning or totally something within the show that was like just see you know like things are about to get really bad because I feel that merge episode was just one of the most like heart wrenching. Things I've ever watched. It was. Yeah yeah totally or even Not a similar thing but on drag race this season there was a person who I don't. I don't WanNA detail the the situation because I I don't know the specifics. But they came out ahead of the episodes airing and said we found out this information after this had been taped so we've done our best to minimize their involvement in the show and like they could have done something like that where they played out as a normal season. They didn't let us like opt out a if it was something that is triggering. They didn't let you opt out because you never knew honest situation or was going to be shown but also they didn't do a good job of minimizing his content and and letting people know we eventually remove him and we provide. Kelly with the supports that she needed. But this is how things unfolded right and I remember like when all this was happening and when the big merge episode came out people were talking about how If you remember that episode from Game Changers Zeke got out at tribal council. I believe that the crew behind survivor actually went to Zeke and like showed him the episode was like making sure that he was okay with it but They did not do that with Kelly. Yeah who was touched by Dan? Yeah and I felt like that wasn't really fair. I did appreciate that at the reunion. They like you know they had her come up and it did feel a little bit like she was uncomfortable being put under the spotlight like that. Yeah I really appreciated what she had to say and the fact that she did say something because I felt like it meant a lot to a lot of people. I wonder if that's because a lot of these things that are happening. If you look at like a continuum of like violent behavior and sorry we're going down a rabbit will but if you look at a continuum of violent like inappropriate behaviors survivor. Let's a lot of the ones that are like maker Gushin's or less recognizable as like wrong. Slept like you're totally right. Like like Zeke came out after his season and said how well they treated it because it was this agree GIS act I think that producers and contestants new as wrong but some of these smaller less recognized behaviors just go unnoticed or unchecked on survivor. And I think like that's something that I wanted to talk about too. If like Jeff. Pope's like he has now like cleared his name twice at different tribal councils one thirty nine in one in forty where he's like kind of giving this like. I'm taking responsibility in taking accountability for things that I might have done now or in the past that were wrong but you can acknowledge those things and God that he has done it but he also lets Tons of these things slide or go unnoticed or projects. His own a lot of the things. We're talking about of of this one image of a winner. A lot of that is from. Jeff like look Jeff's favorite players. They're all these like super masculine men. Yeah that have played really aggressive games or like Sarah was talking about how he calls all these men in this boys club by their last name but not the women. So it's like there are things that yeah just kind of go unchecked. Yeah definitely I feel like I'M PRETTY SURE JEFF proposes from Kansas. So I definitely think he has sort of that like midwest like sort of underlying you know. Good Ole boy Kinda mentality And I do feel like I. I really appreciate the way that he talks about it because I you can tell that like he cares and he wants to do the right thing. I just think Maybe there's not that person that's there with him. That's a producer. That's telling him like. Hey you know this could be read this way or you know you're saying this and you should really say this instead just things like that. Yeah I don't WANNA put any blame on other people that are there. Because obviously he's like the boss and stuff like that and he became an executive producer in the last like blank seasons and he obviously has a lot of pull in the show so the power dynamics would be weird for some or very difficult to navigate for people to call him out but yeah I think like when you look at systems or whatever that yeah are led by Certain people like there's the trickle down effect of what people value and what people think is right and I often look at Mark Burnett. Who's the Creator and and Jeff as an executive producer and the host to change some of these things that we've been talking about definitely definitely and I think you know a lot of is like people in Hollywood are very out of touch? With what anyone else's experiencing not to generalize people in Hollywood? I'm sure there are some better very in touch with reality but I do feel like I. I lived briefly in L. A. And I definitely feel like it's its own bubble and people have their own idea of what real life is like and they definitely don't fully understand like what life is like outside of entertainment totally. Yeah I I agree with that. I think like one other thing. That is interesting in modern survivor. Is this like final? Four fire making twists. I've been seeing a lot of discourse online about. Is this something that favors men like. What what are your thoughts on that? Yeah I mean. I don't know that's hard to say because I we've definitely seen a lot of men win at the fire making contest. I don't know I it did feel like it kind of came out of nowhere because I don't know I think if you make it to the final four and you get voted out three to one. That's probably because you didn't play good enough social game and I feel like them how it really worked for a long time and I was okay with you know like I felt like David. Wright should have one millennials versus gen-x. But he got voted so it is what it is. He didn't deserve to win if he got voted out. So I don't know it almost feels unfair to everybody else. That's been another season. That didn't get fire. You know. Yeah I mean are men inherently better at making fire probably not but it does tend to be the men that win. I don't really know why. Yeah I don't know why either like I don't have a definitive answer because I think like for example. Everyone knows that. There's this fire making challenge. So you best showing up to the island knowing how to make fire and they're like if you're thinking that you're GonNa make it long long term and win this challenge if ever put in that situation like you really have to know so in that aspect. I don't think it's inherently sexist like I think like there is equal opportunity for people to know how to make fire. I think though in practice for example I think about who does make fire camp like. That's one of things that I think about like before on the show when you're at home and you're prepping. Can you make fire every day? Absolutely you should know that but I do think of like when you're back at camping you're thinking about the rules like we often hear about the women making rice something like that or like weaving those palm fronds and stuff like that and then so. I'm thinking do they have the opportunity to make every day or does not often fall in the hands of the men Ray and idea remember on season thirty nine. There was one scene where I want to say. Kelly was trying to make fire and I think it was. Jamal was like no let me do it. And there was sort of that weird dynamic of like no. I'm the man I'm GonNa make the fire. And he was like not able to start it but he's still like I'm GonNa make the fire. And she was wanting to try and he wouldn't let her so it's possible they're sort of that dynamic going on as well where it's just the guys being like. I WANNA prove I can make a fire. Yeah I also want to acknowledge that this Image were this contract that you have to be a super masculine guy and prove yourself with making fire. Must be also difficult to navigate if that's not your natural tendencies or whatever so. I don't know what the answer is like. I definitely prefer like it not to be there like for it to be a classic vote. 'em Like we saw some of the best players leave at final three when it was when it was two people finales and final four in the later seasons. Yeah I don't know I think that maybe it is one of the things we've seen a men's winning streak right now where they're like. The last six seasons right have been. Yeah have been men that have one so. I think it's like all of these variables that we've been talking about Kind of compounding. On each other another thing when men are talking it's often men talking about the big threat of the game. Like I feel like I've seen this exact conversation season after season where there's like three guys around the water while and they're like who are the big threats and they just name other men. I don't know how we came here or how we could change it but it. It's just things that I've noticed definitely like you know like I said. I thought Tony deserve the win. But I didn't like his whole narrative throughout the season of like it's the lions versus the hyenas and like the lions just happen to be mostly him and other strongmen. And like I think Sarah and maybe Kim and Sandra were included but then you know like Denise Michelle Nick were thought of Hyenas and you know like the though that was supposed to be denise but she took out Sandra they were talking about the threats versus the non threats. And it's like why is it that you don't see someone like Denise as a threat? She won a season. She's ones a lot of challenges shoes in great jam. She's really good at social game and she's really smart so I don't see where the lack of threat is yeah. I think that that's really what it comes down to is like when people are like appointing who is a threat and WHO's not. Why does it seem like they're super accomplished women that just get discredited immediately? I don't know I completely agree. I think that there are people that have won. That maybe weren't the pick. Or maybe the weren't the deserving players but it just seems like there's a general lake sediment that yeah that the big dogs are always like the guy and kind of going back to that idea of like a deserving winner versus an undeserving winner. I kind of made a list of like who I think is like considered an undeserving winner. And I feel like it's like Amber Sandra Natalie White Michelle and Sophie are kind of viewed as undeserving winners. And you look at like amber season. You could argue that. And she said last night that she feels that she won. Because everybody was matter at rob and then Sandra season the second one. Heroes were civilians. You could argue that. She got the votes because people were mad at poverty. Russell and the Natalie white season same thing people are mad at Russell Michelle season. People were mad at Aubrey and then Sophie Season. People are mad at coach so it does feel like a lot of the time people feel that these undeserving winners only one. Because everyone was mad at someone else but that sort of discounts the fact that they played a game in which they didn't make anyone mad which is still a valid way to play survivor. Yeah I don't know why that's discounted either because yet like when amber on the finale last night was talking about that like I really believe I only one because and that rob truly one but I just one because people are pests but I mean but part of the game is having people not pissed at you at the end right. So I'm like that's a huge flaw in your game if you're if you're pissing people off to a point where they can't even vote for you at that. Yeah definitely and that's like I said like I feel like it's shifted so much in the game where people feel like now. You have to vote for that person that played aggressively even if they made you mad. And I feel like really discounts. The people that are playing in a different way were. They focused more on relationships because ultimately if everyone in the game is playing aggressively. They'RE GONNA voted out. And it's not going to be that fun to watch 'cause it's just GonNa be sporadic like I felt like island of the idols to me was a good example of people sort of making moves. Just for the sake of making a move and it wasn't really fun to watch 'cause all the to me the most interesting characters got voted out earlier than I would have liked totally and I felt like some of the votes. Were so out of nowhere. Like Chelsea Walker getting voted out really early on because she had like one conversation with a guy and it was just like totally. Yeah I even think of Gabby voting out Christian like I think it was mostly. She had this thing in her head of like. I need to make a big move. I am if I'm the audience at home. I'm screaming out my TV. Why is continuing to work with Christian? And she tried to flip on him and it didn't pan out but I. I truly believe she wouldn't have done that if there wasn't this idea in her head like. I need to make a big move now before it's too late right and I think you you mentioned a really good point about chaotic gameplay. That's really aggressive leg. Tony is the best representative of that style versus Sarah and like I navigate more to Sarah's game play because it's so consistent and I think truly I think Tony is really great. Tv that's why On in such revere. But if you think about Sarah and Tony and if they played one hundred games my money is on Sarah because she has the relationships she can fall back on. She has this more consistent game play. That's way less erotic quote last night like it's been thirty. Six days of me calming down when he wants to do something crazy. And I thought that that was just a great representation of like her game play or one of her strategies that it didn't often get showed on the show. Yeah I just appreciate her. Yeah I definitely feel like what really impressed me about Sarah. Just in the last bit of the finale in the last bit of her part on the finale was is ben telling her to vote him out so that she could have a chance at winning. Which like I'm sure you know in her mind. She wasn't like I'm going to manipulate this guy to tell me to vote him out. It was just a testament to like the real relationship and connection that she makes with other players that he was willing to give up his shot to win to let her have a chance at winning and I do feel like probably part of it was some self awareness and him being like well even if I make. It's probably won't win and Thai actually. I really liked that move because I was like to me. It shows so much about like the toll. This game takes on you that you would rather keep your friends than have a shot at winning. But yeah so that. And the fact that Natalie went up to her the water well and showed Heidel and tried to get her. She genuinely thought she had her on board to vote out Ben. I thought that was so interesting that Sarah had such a grasp on an everyone's sort of social dynamic that she was really able to get everyone to think that she was with them one hundred percent and we saw that in game changers and then we saw that again in in season. Forty where she was. Everyone's number one and I think like going into the season Dalton. Ross he's a reporter for. I don't even can't even recall the magazine. He asked everybody to write down the person that they want to vote out. First and Sarah got like fifty percent of the votes going into the season and like look at her at the end and that just shows It does show the testament of what she was able to accomplish where she was able to work at a game where technically everyone is against everyone else but she was able to work so seamlessly with people like Bannon. Tony where at the end. They're all in tears about her leaving or Ben leaving like that just shows the I don't know off her skills and her her relationship building Seem fate yeah. I'm in off Sarah. And I think a lot of people don't like her because she doesn't have those zingers in confessional and yes she doesn't have those. Fauci idle plays and stuff like that but and like game. Changers wasn't the best season. Hey but in terms of entertainment but I really I think she's one of the the best survivor players. We've seen in in in the series but also just in fiber and I think a lot of the season really demonstrated like modern survivor has changed so much from old survivor. Which is why I think the old survivor players really couldn't keep up I The like rob was maybe the best example of it was trying to do the buddy system but with actual like really great players and it was like what were you thinking. Did you really think that they were gonNA around all day? Not In that episode. When they didn't even really seem like they had to talk but Ben and like Adam and stuff like that they're making is on each other like we know it's rob right like we're all like good with that and like how they didn't even really had to have like like they didn't have thorough discussion or anything. They just knew right. Sometimes we forget how much luck or the other competition really makes a winner. Yeah definitely and that's the thing with me with the fire making contest kind of going back to that is I do feel like. There's an element of luck. Like I don't think you can win without knowing how to make a fire but I think ultimately like sometimes you hit the flint and there's a spark and sometimes you hit the flint and there's no spark and it's I I've seen we've all seen a lot of fire making contests where the person who has been making fires all day suddenly candidate Meyer. Yeah and like I think. Part of it is just finding idle. Luckily out there is aspects of it that it that is just fluke and lack and stuff like that so all of the elements have to come together for someone to win. So what's next for survivor? Like we're moving into our into the forties which is wild to me but do you think that there are things that the show can do to. Kind of mitigate some of these gender dynamics are kind of these traditional rules that happen. Yeah I definitely thought about it a lot because there is so much within the show that is sort of really built into it that I can't really imagine it changing but I feel like it would have to change to get a new kind of winter and I feel like ultimately. I don't know if this would ever happen. But there needs to be like basically a reset of the game. Because you know like I said. People seem to already have in their mind. What's The archetype of a winner? And it's based on the game that exists as it exists so I mean I've I've talked to my boyfriend about it a lie and you know. He has no idea where it's like do a survivor apocalypse. Where it's like everyone's in an abandoned warehouse and we give them like basic supplies and they after survive like that or you know survivor somewhere. Other than Fiji where it's just and they. I feel like if they either really simplified the game maybe didn't have any idols or only did advantages instead of idols. That would I think bring it back more to its roots of being about social politics and strategy and not so much about who has the flashiest game play in the longest resume. Yeah I also think like that's a good point about the idol's like having alternative ways to find them currently the predominant way to find an idol is to look in Bush. Is there used to be clues to them Now sometimes there is sometimes. There's not obviously there's other ways that you can get things like buying them with their fire tokens on the season or her. There's been idols hidden at challenges etc but often people are talking about how finding them is skewed towards men also just thinking about how when you're back to the basics new surviving on an island. I think those more traditional roles come out. Because that's something that you probably feel comfortable in and it's something maybe add that provides you comfort when you don't have any the roundabout way of saying that. Often women are pigeon held in to stain camp and like tending to count life where the men have more free reign to walk in search and look and stuff like that as far as changing the game to be. I don't think we need to change the game so that it's like. Oh we have to make a woman win. I just wanted to be more fair and equitable and it does seem like no more that they move towards making all these random advantages have so much influence the more that we see male winners. I do feel like moving away from advantages would probably balancings out a little bit more but I do really feel like at the core. It really has to come down to the players agreeing. That what makes a winner is not necessarily slash game play and relation. I don't know if that will just take maybe finding a cast. That doesn't know the game very well or bringing in a cast and telling them like the rules are completely different. This season or something like that. I love seeing fans on the show because I'm a fan and I want to be on it but I do think you get sort of a more interesting dynamic when you bring in people that don't know the show like yeah you see someone like Earl who won an Survivor it was the ones with the haves versus the have nots. But I forget Fiji feed bound. Okay so we have. Someone like earl who wants survivor. Fiji and he had never seen the show before and he basically I think he found out that he was going to be on it like a day or two before and I flew him out. I might be wrong about that story. I know he had never seen the show on anyone. Which I think is really cool and I think it's because he played with this very let a social game that was very much about relationships with people and there were still a lot of strategy in it but it was really not a game that was influenced by anyone else's game and I think that's really the main issue we have today is everyone's trying to and relate a game that someone else's played. Yeah I though you brought up. A good point of that is one thing that has really changed from day. One survivor is that they're casting way more super fans and obviously as a superfan. I love that like that's great. Plus like it right the emotional piece of it like I think like the most recent super super duper fan that I can think of his atom like just start emotional lake or Chrissy halfback like I've applied for sixteen years and I'm on the show like that is such great. Tv that obviously WANNA watch. But you're right about forecasting super fans and they have this idea of what a winner is. How do you? How do you change that? Like how how is that? Something that how hokey bring other ideas of what winners should be to the to the show right for sure. Yeah it's definitely bothered me as the seasons. Go on every time. Someone's like traditional in a in survivor. Once an idol and other one is hidden. And it's like I really miss when that know when a new idol. Yes When you had to go to exile to find an idol when it wasn't just so easy where people were like an idol in the jungle and I know it's there so a play tonight all or on the last edge of extinction when they were saying like. Oh let's just make it to the family visit and then we'll fight it out amongst ourselves and I just felt like that was so frustrating where the players all knew exactly win things. Were going to happen and what the time line was and I definitely feel like it needs to get switched up a bit so that people can't really predict as much what's going to happen next. I also think this came up obviously in every thirty nine but just hiring more women Like it was often detailed that all of the camera people and the producers and stuff like that I don't WanNa say all but mo- most our men and just having more women and more diverse perspectives is really important when you are looking at creating something that's like the ethical thing to do is have a diverse team of people to make sure that yeah. You're checking all those boxes that you need do. Yeah definitely I completely agree with that because that is really the best way to see if what you're making is you know. Equal is to have a pretty equal number of men and women that were that are working on it and I definitely you know I believe in you. Know Whoever's the most qualified or the best for the job should get it but at the same time if you know that your show has issues with diversity and having an equal experience for both genders. I definitely feel like it's justifiable to specifically bring someone in because they can represent back group. Yeah and they can bring a perspective that you might have missed while working there and And also just making people feel comfortable and not like other when their people talk about feeling like they were kind of token is are typecast in certain rules and when you don't see yourself reflected in the production or in the when I think about like offices or TV or whatever like if if people don't feel like they're reflected in that that really hinders people's ability to thri definitely. I do think it's interesting. Like sort of tracking the amount of diversity that has happened on survivor through the years and it's always equal with men and women. But you know racially it's it's definitely more white. Yeah like increased diversity. Yeah and I just think like if you really want a fair game you have to make it equitable for everyone. And people of Color and Queer folks and women are people that aren't the dominant gender if they don't have the ability to see themselves represented or supported. They're battling way more than just the game. They have all these other things that they're considering and I know that Certain people have said like I remember Krishna. Last season was talking about representing her community. And the pressures that came with that and how much more of mental fatigue and even physical fatigue does that. Play a part in people's ability to thrive right definitely. I do think part of it as well is. I mean I don't I don't know if this is just me musing or if there is proof behind it but I do feel like women tend to be more worried about the public perception of them so I do think women go into the game. A little more afraid of what people will perceive them as as opposed to men going into the game totally The other things that kind of we talked about that. I think that could mitigate. Some of these issues are editing lake. Don't show the fucking hundred times that manner talking about big threats or meet shields and not including women because then people at home through like their own lens but they're subconsciously taking that in and creating this idea of a winner so just like don't don't show those things yeah. I totally agree with that. I do feel like I hadn't really thought about it. But I do feel like survivor is more and more getting edited. Almost to be like a sport where it's like all you see a strategic game play and you see people talking about who they're gonNA vote out and all that stuff but you don't see as much of the human element of it so it's moving away from being about these relationships and people and how people react to different situations and it's more about like people playing a game and I definitely think that is partially responsible for why people only see it as a strategic game versus a human experience totally. Yeah I agree with that completely and in terms of filming we also kind of wrote in our notes about clothing options like you. People are tape cast For sure but I just think about some of the the overall say is from the production of what you can and can't wear and I just think of like the tiny sundresses that people get and like. Obviously that's totally okay. I'm not talking about it in a way of like that. It's like exposing their skin. Are like that. It's like slut shaming or anything. I'm not talking about that. I'm just talking about like the essentials that you need to survive outside whereas like the businessman gets a full suit and then you look over at the flirty young twenty year olds in a sundress and stuff like that. It's just like setting everyone up for success and I think that used to be a huge part of the game the survive survival element and the shipwreck to look and stuff like that. But we can get that from other. Tv shows I would much rather see people Clothes properly and effectively than than not right definitely and the example that I always think of his Purple Kelly from survivor. Nicaragua where she ended up quitting. And everybody was like. Oh she's a quitter you know. She was basically edited out of the season So that when she quit people were like who is this girl. But it's interesting because when you actually like look at the interviews with her afterwards which I did 'cause you know a Superfan She was basically saying she was like freezing out on the beach and all she had was this little yellow dress and they wouldn't give her anything else even though she was like begging them for other clothes and like judd who ended up winning the season. He gave her his jacket but she just was like slowly freezing to and so her and Janka ended up quitting because they just couldn't take it anymore and definitely feel like she was basically like shamed for that but they really should have allowed her to have a jacket or something. I do know that they have more clothing options nowadays and stuff like that but since they're producing a TV show and they have different types of characters They still play into that like this person's like the nerd. Let's stick them in. Yeah Blazer and stuff like that or abundant up t shirt or whatever and often women. It's just not all but a lot. It's just something that's like really not useful when you're on a deserted island and there's hurricanes and really bad rain and I definitely do not love that. They moved back to having them wear underwear as opposed to swimsuits. I don't know why they chose to do that. Because it's not like under aware quickly dries like swimsuits you know. I can't even imagine how gross that would be to wear the same pair of underwear for thirty nine days totally. Yeah and I I just think like in the early two thousands when the scheme was first on people probably were watching because it was a bunch of people in bathing suits and under ends of that. And there's like an appeal to that but I think nowadays like that's not what the game is about. And that's not the appeal. Go somewhere else. If that's what you WANNA see WanNa see girls in bikinis you can find that elsewhere. Yeah Ed so it's like just give them proper cloth's yeah for sure for sure. Especially because they're in Fiji every season now and Fiji like they go there basically during typhoon season which they've dealt with many seasons so it just seems like it. It just doesn't seem right. I do think like as time has gone on. It does look like all of them have jacket. I think now allowing them to bring a jacket. Y- which may have been because of Angelina and the whole jacket fiasco which was fantastic. Yes yes she was one of the first people to really include gender into this conversation He'll love Angelique that she was Super Super Nice when I met her and it was so funny I was talking to her and I was like I actually really loved you and she was like I thought everyone hated me and I was like no lake. I mean you were edited to be kind of this goofy character but I felt like she was so endearing you know and she. I fell at the beginning. She was really edited to be this like very interesting smart woman and then just over time it just started devolved into something else like she was still fun to watch but Yeah I do feel like it's Kinda like Adam. This season like. They really looked for the moments to kind of make him. Look you. Yeah like if there was like five times that he trapped. We're going to show all five times on Ray because they need these narratives but yeah it's it's like at the cost of somebody because it's really tough. I think that's like another thing. That survivors have been talking about is like just the toll that after the game takes on them like their mental health and soften. Yeah I I really likes that. They talked about that. And one of the tribal councils the season where they were talking about. How Lake how difficult it was to trust people again afterwards. I thought that was so interesting. Because you don't even think about that like I just imagine you know you go out you play you come home and you know it's like physically. I need to get back to what you were but I didn't even think about mentally like having that much a toll on you totally are lake. Just mulling over the mistakes or whatever that you need like I just. I can't imagine what that experience is like. Yeah I really like what? Tyson says Because he said on the season one and he said it again this season where he is like you know some people take it too seriously and they get voted out and it ruins their life and I thought that was really interesting because you know on his season he won. That was after his girlfriend. Got Voted out. He was upset that he was like you know as long as she had fun. And I stay here and I have a good time like that's really the point and I definitely think like there needs to be more of that mentality on survivor. Where it it is a game. It's an experience. You should all be having a good time like if you leave and you're really unhappy with your time there then. That's probably not the way that it should be going totally. I think one last thing but I wanNA talk about is also just coverage of the show. We talked about all of the articles that we read and podcasts. We listen to and stuff like the ad and I just think that the space is dominated by men and so obviously. They're talking about it through their own Lens. So yeah definitely 'cause. I hadn't even really thought about it until I saw that you made a note of that and I was like. Oh yeah like every well-known podcast every like well-known journalists that covers it is male and I know there was Before the season started I wanna say it was entertainment weekly Canada. There was a female entertainment Canada and entertainment tonight. Canada okay. Yeah Yeah so she was great. That was cool to see but I definitely think like especially of the former players that are now commentators. There's not as many women it at least not ones that are very. Yeah just thinking about the players that commentate like I am a rob has a podcast patron. It's like probably the only coverage I super super super follow and I think he's done an amazing job Discussing season thirty nine some of these issues that have come up. He really hasn't shied away from discussing them. But yeah I think leg again just like we talked about with production and filming and editing and also covering the seasons like we need to see more women to have different perspectives and that's also like also people of Color and people of different gender identities like we've talked about women but also we haven't even talked about Queer Trans folks like League we just need more diverse perspectives on the show The show definitely. I completely agree. 'cause yeah it. It's not something that you really like notice but I am. I am sure that it definitely has an influence on the way that people watch and think about the show totally. Yeah Yeah just because everyone Interprets things through their own intersections in their own lens. And if we're just hearing kind of this one dominant type of person obviously people contain multitudes. This kind of these ideas. I guess that are coming forth. If they're just coming from one type of person like a that's not interesting but be yeah. It's going to color the way that people think of things right and I think ultimately like as far as Jenner in the show. What it comes down to is like the same as in real life. It's not that I just want a woman to win for the sake of a woman winning dame that there have been a series of men winning. It's essentially a pattern. Now that men tend to only win and that to me is a sign that there's something in place that's not really letting women get to that spot so absolutely yeah like. I literally said at the top of this show that my favorite season was Kagi on which male winner. It's definitely not that. I just WANNA see women. Obviously I want to see women succeed but it's not for the sake of having a woman winner it. Yeah like you said is truly about. How can we make the game equitable for everyone? And it's boring if it's the same type of person and it's not exciting item agree. Yeah I mean you look back at the last six seasons and the winners were we had so tony. Yep this now not Chris Tony Tommy I see. I forgot about Tommy Chris. Nick Wendell and Ben Adam Adam was I think like thirty three okay. So a little. Yeah I'm just going back to like. When was the last female winter so Sarah and then it was like you know Ben and so forth yet but I definitely feel like all of them really had the same sort of has to the end. Maybe the only one that was a bit different was Wendell. Yeah has he was in such a strong pair? Yeah and that was super interesting ending. Yeah ty but yeah I definitely feel like you know Ben Neck Tommy Chris and Tony. They definitely feel like the same archetype really. There's many similarities between their game. Play so it is like you said it's just kinda boring at a certain point. It's like do I really WanNa Watch and just see the type of Guy. When at the end totally you look at a season like season thirty nine we started with such an incredibly diverse cast which is rare for survivor and was really exciting because it was like. Oh My. Gosh. I've never seen a cast. That had this many different backgrounds and we still end up with a white guy is totally which you know. If he played the best game he played the best game. I don't WanNa take away from him but I do feel like you know. We're getting the same kind of winter even if we start with a different group of people who maybe it's not about who you're putting on the show. It's more about the structure of the show absolutely. Yeah and I think that's like a really good note to end on. Is that we. I'm positive for the future. Like I'm really hopeful. That survivor is GonNa take note of These things as they get covered more talked about more and I'm hopeful that they'll listen to their audience and make the necessary changes and we just thought of a handful of changes that they can make right now. That like Casta says you're not just players but your consultants. I'm unemployed but yeah like we thought of some not solutions but some things to you to try out that they could implement like right away so I'm really hopeful that things will will improve for the better and yeah I'm excited to see what sees him forty one and beyond has in store for US definitely. I'm super excited and I agree with you. I think it'll probably be good to have this little break for them. And I think they'll kind of reconsider what they're GONNA do moving forward. And hopefully it won't just be a few more twists and flipping coins totally like this is my favorite. Tv show. I stand by that. It is the best game on earth and love to watch every season and I WANNA continue to WANNA watch every season and yeah. I think that this is important. An important conversation to have for them to move forward in a way that Fair for everybody but also makes their show better and like diverse cast and crew enrich TV shows. And they shouldn't shy away from. That definitely agree like saying. It's my favorite show on TV and will probably always watch but I would definitely be more excited about it if there was a bit of a switch up in it. Yeah absolutely. I think that's it from us. It was really nice talking to someone about a survivor but be like gender dynamics in often times. Like on this podcast. We don't talk about like some of the these not heavy but more challenging topic so it was also a this has been a challenge for me to make sure that I'm my homework and being fair and Have some good points in my arguments. Yeah that's awesome no. It was Super Fun. I always want to talk about survivor. And it's hard to find people that watch it so this has been really fun for me. Good yeah thanks so much for bringing your perspective in Doing due diligence of of research and stuff like that and putting together some thoughts. I super appreciate that pressure. So many. Wear Kin folks find you if they want to hear more from you? So it's not about survivor. Right people are interested in sort of seeing what I write and what I do in my life I have a blog called vagrants and vagabonds and basically. I talk about all the different sort of jobs that I've had worked on a cruise ship and gave tours of habitat and Alaska and just all kinds of crazy stuff and traveled around a bit. So if you're interested in stuff like that and Just like the sound of my voice. Then check that out. I love that. We'll have to have you back on the show to talk about something like below dockers. Yes I love a Lotta K- as okay. We'll put that on the the schedule. That sounds awesome. Nice talking to you guys really nice talking to you too. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did talking about one of my favourite TV shows of all time survivor. And if there's anything else that you want me to deep dive I'd be more than happy to just let me know on instagram twitter facebook at RTP podcast. And I think that's all for me. Folks stay safe and healthy as always in your story and I'm ready to be petty sees soon bye.