Are Trump press conferences really political rallies in disguise? Phil Rucker, Shannon Pettypiece and Ian Bremmer


From Washington SORTA call it Arlington Chuck. Todd this is Chuck Todd Calf. As of the time recorded this podcast. Nearly thirteen thousand Americans have died of ours in this country and our cultures evolved to try to fight the virus the political narratives of evolved as well. The question is is the president involved with it to people. Keep a close eye on all the moves inside the West one. They'll record White House. Bureau chief for The Washington Post in Shannon Petty Senior White House reporter for NBC News Digital and later ready to take a look into the crystal ball to answer. What is the new normal for the world after cove nineteen global political scientists and president of Eurasia Group in? Bremmer will discuss how this will affect everything from authoritarian regimes to America's role in the world. But I the White House response to the Corona Virus Shannon and Phil back to the podcast and I and I think I'm GonNa ask you the question that I get asked every day. Some former another and you may know what it is is. I'm sure you both get asked the same question. Which is what is it with the president at these briefings. And why do people in the media keep covering it since the U. People is we people Shed and I'll start with you You know these briefings are vague Make your case as to why the Americans should. I think there is a lot of information in these at doesn't necessarily come from the president. Actually I would say the information. He's often does it. Come from the president but I think Dr Burks and Dr Doughty have given Yo severely tremendous insights into what the scientific community is thinking about where this infection going. How BEST TO PROTECT OURSELVES And you know a essentially what cautions everyday Americans should be taken and given some some warnings there so I think there is. There is big value from that perspective. But I from the president's time on the podium these have as many people have observed serve become a substitute for a campaign rally and his opportunity to get out there invent to attack his perceived enemies of the moment And to try and get his message and his spin on the message. Directly to people circumventing what is being reported in the rest of the news media outside of Fox News so I think it is a fair criticism that these do at times turned into a political rally. But I also think the difficult balance because like I said there is real information that actually comes from the scientists involved in this and I just as a regular person feel like I have watched these and it has changed my views about how I should be protecting myself whether I should be traveling whether I going to the grocery store or wearing a mask and those sort of things Phil Rucker Do you believe you know it's interesting. You could cover these. If this were the nineteenth century you could simply ignore all the silly parts of it and just write about the information. If you knew your audience hadn't seen the briefing. You wouldn't feel like you were leaving anything out. I feel as if because we know these are televised. We feel it's necessary to cover the hijacks. Yeah I think that's right. Shaq intercept performance our quality to what the president's trying to do here. He has been under siege for months now because of his slow acknowledgement of the threat of Corona Virus. And and the time it took the administration to really take it seriously and so in turn what he's done with these briefings. It's to try to prevent image of command and control if you just have the briefing on Mute You see the president with numbers on a screen behind him that show. How many masks ventilators or whatever they're sending to stakes and then you see all these people that he's flanked by. Sometimes their uniforms members of the military sometimes the surgeon. General's there sometimes. It's the doctor's always vice. President pence is right over his shoulder. with a sign of acknowledgment and support in his body language and I think for trump. He is trying to use these briefings as an opportunity to present an image of command that doesn't necessarily align with the facts on the ground at how administration's handling it which is troubled Shannon. I WANNA go back because it's a great question that US last week. It was the way you worded it and it was funny. He didn't jump down your throat and normally he would on this issue and if the issue of testing right the biggest single you know error in our response has been the testing bockel. And you simply ask you promise. Twenty seven million tests just asking winter. We expect the other twenty six million and he. He fumbled the bed. 'cause he tries to drown us in number sometimes but it does seem as if he's behaving this way because he knows he messed up and trying to recover sort of like gum. You're walking down the sidewalk in front of the cool kids and you trip and stumble a little bit then you have to dust yourself off and start walking cooler like ever did before. Pretend nothing happened. That's sometimes how I kind of feel like he is walking out here trying to act like every you know yes I just stumbled but everything's fine now and maybe blame someone else. They'd say who put that there. How did I trip over that? Maybe somebody else? He's always gotTa Blake Sidewalk there. That's a terrible idea right. And and that's part of these briefings to is laying the groundwork for who to blame the. Who was the latest blame? Victim the governors. The Governor of Michigan was the want to be blamed over that of course Biden. The Obama Administration always gets the blame So you testing. He blame that on it. You know a a and again. It's not actually accurately says terrible faulty broken system. It's just a system created for something else for different type of disease outbreak. Don't even now. Yeah that never. He keeps saying that in. It's like what are you talking about right. It was essentially a testing system that was designed for something like A. You know a Bulla outbreak or not something that would be so widespread that you would need these sort of rapid quick response rates but they still really haven't been able to answer the question of testing and while that hindered our ability to get started. It is gonNA hinder our ability to get out of this because if we want to reopen the economy and get people back to work we have to be able to test everyone so we can quickly identify someone who wants the cases dropped down. We can identify a new case. All the contract tastes Contract tracing to quarantine people again and stop this from getting out of control and I still don't think we have a an actual answer to that question and they've created so much confusion around it I don't know if that's unintentional. Because it is just a confusing topic or if it's intentional. Because they're trying to cover up the fact that there are still huge testing whole occurring Phil Rucker in the same briefing. Where he he seemed to want to blame the WTO. It was amazing to me what he doesn't know he didn't know anything about the Peter Navarro memo and read it He didn't know any couldn't any idea. Why is it that it could be working class? African Americans could be hit harder by. This just has no idea how that could be. He had no idea what happened with Secretary of Navy. The Acting Secretary of Navy didn't know anything about that. It's a crutch obviously when he doesn't want to comment on something or he doesn't like the facts and he doesn't have an alternative explanation. His answer is I don't know anything about and chuck. We've seen that time and again right. He he knows nothing about Paul Manafort campaign chairman when when Manafort was arrested. We've seen this all the time from him. And what was so striking to just hone in on that. Navarro memo is it was dated near the end of January beginning. January third trump was getting information in his presidential daily brief About Corona virus about the dangerous about the outbreak in China that human level. What what did he ever say he was listening? Now just because somebody was briefing. Him doesn't mean he was listening yet. He tunes this out and he doesn't have much appreciation for the expertise of people in the government. People like Dr Fao. She and others but in all rounds of government and the intelligence community and the national security apparatus. We've seen this over three years of his presidency where he thinks he's the expert. He thinks he knows best and tunes out. Whatever people are telling him so I guess the question is whether I don't think this helps him. I think every day I think this is one of those moments where he thinks Shannon that the hijinks and the entertainment quality of what he brings this job still hold during a pandemic and I just think fit the hijinks that I don't know we'll I'll be curious. I don't know if the country has the same patients when suddenly they're like. Where's My job? Why am I trapped in my house? Repels going on here. Why do you keep bloviating over here? Member Mike Francesa rant. You know it's like way you know. It's like yeah. Here's a guy who was like trump voters. I what the hell's up by pillow guy went up there. Just telling you what the Hell's going on you know. Yeah I mean. We're all probably quite cynical at this point I feel like though if you liked trump before this you watch these and you're you think he is a commander in chief in charge of the country. You think he's doing the best he can. Of course this is not going to be perfect. We've never seen anything like this. You Know He. He did what he could with China if you liked him before you're going to give them the benefit of doubt here if you didn't like them before you're GonNa Watch this and thank keys. A bloviating Idiot whatever your perception of him before was and you can't believe what's happening and that he's caused the death of tens of thousands of people in this is all his fault. I think we just play to a draw again like we've seen in past crises of his presidency like we saw an impeachment people's opinions are so set on him and they've been so set for three or four years now and while it seemed like he got a little bit of a bumped in polling initially as may be about two weeks ago with his approval rating going up a little bit among Democrats little bit among Republicans. From what I've seen the past week. It looks like everything's leveled off. And we're back to the forty seven percent. Forty seven percent country with this group this group of UNICORNS IN THE MIDDLE. Who can't make up their mind or somewhere like a needle in the haystack of voters. That are somehow at this point and yet Phil Rucker. It was actually such an unforced air politically I look at the the. I look at all of this. You know look this. Donald Trump's entire political career. The last five years to me is a hallmark up. He never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity. The fact of the matter is is that a whole bunch of governors who are all going to put down their rhetorical arms right. Now they need you know. The whole country needs the president to succeed even though people that don't like and yet instead of using that opportunity to be to show like even the tiniest ability I mean just shows you how broken he is. Psychologically sometimes because he can't even show the smallest mark of humility and Elvis or you know sort of be an American I. He continues to be a politician. I that's right Shaq. It would be so easy for him to just say look we were. We were slow out of the gate. Everyone was slow out of the gate. Who knew this was going to happen? But we're doing everything to fix it now and to be magnanimous and to work with these governors and not to cast about for blame and to just get the job done. It's not that hard to try to put people in place to do this now. Forget about what happened in the past disco forward but instead he is. He's looking for people to attack. He's attacking governors. Who SPEAK OUT ABOUT HIM? And it's this partisan sort of personal show up there Instead of being the president all Americans Hey Shannon one of the things that I think that I feel like we haven't made a bigger point of and maybe it's maybe it's just a sidebar note. That's worth discussing. But the you know the the one person in America whose life has been. The least changed is the presence. And I've I've wondered like how little he can but like every even people on his own staff have had their lives impact because they don't live in the building he lives in the building he has has. He doesn't actually have become some of what's happening. Well I will say. There were a number of mar-a-lago trips. We were anticipating that. We have not taken. There were a lot of campaign rallies we were doing about one week on average so firm is not getting the campaign rallies that he used to get But yet I mean that's I think that's always been a There's always obviously been this empathy gap with him in. How does he empathize with someone? Who has both people in the family have lost their job? And you know unemployment is not gonNA cover the bills or had you do empathize with someone who's caring for a sick family member who's been sick for two weeks now. Who is waking up in the middle of the night to check on them to make sure they're still breathing. He has always struggled to empathize with people On a lot of fronts and I think that all presidents probably have difficulty connecting with the average person once. They've been there but I don't think he ever really could act the average person and I think that's always lead to this this struggle we've seen in that in moments of crisis for him to be that consoler in Chief. Cliche that we always use. While we're in the middle of this little breaking news with Bernie Sanders bowing to reality here. Suspending his campaign the day after the Wisconsin primary even though we don't know the actual results yet we're not gonNA know those but before I get to the to the whatever left whatever fall-outs left of that I think that's just feels like A. Oh so he conceded type of thing and then and we move on. There was an oh by the way story in the White House this weekend. That is the White House. Shakeup at new chief-of-staff new press secretary the more things change. Though I assume Phil Rucker the most more things will stay the same. Seems that way. Check look. You can change the people in these jobs but every day president trump is going to be his own chief of staff and his own press secretary and his own lawyer and his own adviser. And we've seen this from day one He's brought in Mark Meadows of a political loyalists in a much more sort of campaign minded person to be his chief of staff in the changes that he's making already in the communications and press operations seem geared towards getting ready for the general election campaign against Biden. bringing press secretary. Who's going to be an on air television defender and spokesperson not really deal at the press necessarily in. Just get kind of a war room operation inside the White House. It's the president becomes fixated on the Campaign Shannon The task force the tension that is clearly starts to bubble up. Whether it's the odd roles. Peter Navarro is playing Or the the president deciding to play Doctor. At times you can see the pain to faces about. Jason Burks. Does this task force state attack for the through the summer or do we think this tension that bubbled is just GonNa get worse as they try to reopen country. Yeah I I don't know that that's that's a good point that we're gonNA come to a the president's patients is GonNa wear off and obviously his patients was starting to wear off You know at the beginning of the month when he was talking about or even before the beginning of the month when he was talking about reopening the country by Easter and the scientists had an intervention. Rained him back in. I mean there's been a number of these moments where his staff not even just the scientists but other staff who get it have had to hold an intervention and rain him back in? So how many times can that be done? And like we have seen through everything in this administration. Those people can only hold back the reins on this president so much before. He is just going to do it his way and say you know. Throw it away. I'm doing I'm following my gut on following my instinct. I'm pulling out of the Paris climate accord I'm putting those tariffs on whatever the drastic thing. He was contemplated at the moment was he does it now. We've got maybe three or four months laughed can they? Maybe they can hold the reins on that long. You know eight or nine months Definitely not but I think Especially though as we really get in to the point where he's got a ramp up his campaign and his reelection his focus is going to start to shift there and he's GonNa Start to lose attention in this area and that's where you're going to see the patients where out that's probably where it's going to be. That's that's what I'm thinking of. Quick Phil Rucker Peter. Navarro leaking a memo that. He warned about a pandemic in January. I I'm saying he did. I don't know that he did it but it was conveniently time just when he was taking it. Taking a press beating on the Chin over clashing with Bausch and Lo and behold here comes here comes this memo but it felt like one of those moments where he was trying to brandish his own resume he did the pre he ended up damaging the president at the same time. What's more likely with this memo that? This memo was written circulated among mid level staff and blocked from the president or it did get to them and they're just choosing Amnesia. You know it's a good question and I don't actually know the answer but my gut says they blocked it from getting the president first of all the president doesn't actually read a lot of memos He doesn't Rita's daily briefing from the intelligence community. He prefers to be briefed orally. So the idea that they would present a multi paves document to him and he would read. It doesn't really align with reality there but Navarro is known inside the White House. It's as someone always sounding the alarm especially on China. You know a lot of people inside the administration. Don't respect him. They think he's the kind of dangerous and causing trouble all the time. And so there certainly is a scenario where It was kept from getting the president. Because they didn't want the president to overreact about China in the middle of You know what have been pretty tense trade negotiations with that country Yeah he is. He is one of the most interesting characters to cover. White House Mr Navarro is he. Not Yes and. I would second what Phil said when my colleagues and I started asking around about this memo People said to US lesson. Peter Navarro is always going around with Psalm. Memo's Chai he's China chicken little right right whether it's something China's comet et cetera. And it was just like. Yeah yeah whatever. Almost of a boy who cried wolf type of thing but of course Peter Navarro. You know to your point that all of a sudden he's supposed to supposed to look like this hero. Who saw it coming? He was in January. It was not a big secret anymore that there was something big happening out there. China shut down an entire city of like eight million people. I think it was That that's something kind of crazy going on so it was on the front page of the New York Times all the time. I'm sure what she imposed as well It wasn't a secret that only Peter Navarro knew about at that level well. I'd said that we were going to dive a little bit into the Bernie thing. But I really don't think there's a lot of impact from Bernie getting out except for one thing the fact that he's out now and not at the convention and there's not drama to this is that I think it Phil Rucker. I'm curious I just think it makes it that much harder for trump to exploit you know angry Bernie supporters when it sort of fizzles as early as quickly as this campaign now looks at. This is if it did exactly and it's fizzled Much faster than than the sanders campaign did in two thousand sixteen. For example in. It'll trump will not be able to make the argument that The nomination was stolen from thorny standards because standards just didn't have the votes to back up his case. He was clearly losing to Joe Biden. It's probably helpful to the Democrats that they're become consolidation now than than in the summertime although there's a real challenge here for Biden to inject himself into the new cycled to get out there when trump is dominating every day and we're in the middle of the pandemic people don't WanNa hear about your college affordability plans or or any of the other plans at the my I is. He doesn't need to grow avenue. Nobody wants to hear about it right now. So he should. He should take it except that I do think the one thing to watch for now is how strongly Bernie threw his support behind Biden. And how much help he gives the Biden campaign because that was the complaint the Clinton campaign has had is that he never really gave a full throated endorsement to Clinton and he never really helps them the way they wanted to help. He didn't do the surrogate events they wanted him to do. He did the ones he wanted to do. He had his message not their message so to see if he really becomes a partner to buy an RV continues being Bernie and going off and doing Bernie thing and not actively working against Biden of course in any way our guys. I'm GONNA pause it. There fell and Shannon. Thanks for Working from home. I guess we're all doing that base days. I hope you're staying safe and healthy fan and you have to you go out in public every once in a while. Those briefings your yeah. We have a week in the White House and then two weeks and then a week Mac. Yes so I'm in my I'm in my quarantine phase one gene week. All right yes life. Stop Streep careful guys. Thanks very much. Thanks to after your report danger. We'll be right back with enbrel after quickly. Hey It's Chris. As this week on my podcast wise is happening. I'LL BE TALKING WITH JOHN. Berry author of the book the Great Influenza about the last Global Pandemic. We analyzed what cities did in nineteen eighteen and found that those cities which into remained early at a much better experience at the very least in terms of flattening the curb if the intervening too late the viruses already widely disseminated in your community and no intervention is GonNa have any effect if the enemy is already inside the home. It doesn't do you any good to lock the door. That's this week on. Why is this happening? Search for why is this happening wherever you're listening right now and subscribe. Welcome back to the chuck. Todd cast joining me now as I said at the top is even better. He is basically a global political scientists as description. It works for me. Chuck you know Yeah Global. Put Your your chairman of the Eurasia Group which means you only worry about countries in Europe and Asia Right. I wish it meant that when I started it back in ninety eight now. A pretty global now and And and I think corona virus making us global even though you wouldn't know that from the headlines for well fair no let me start our conversation off with this quote from the former Prime Minister of Sweden Carl Bilt. He tweeted this at April first and I wanted to make a big deal out of it on Sunday. We just didn't have enough time. This is the first GRADE CRISIS OF THE POST. American world he tweets the UN Security Council is nowhere to be seen. G Twenty is in the hands of the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia and the White House is trumpeted America. First and everyone alone for years only the virus is globalised. I found the tweet into be it sort of finally said what I was waiting for. Somebody said like this is the first major international emergency where America's not in the lead if anything we're behind that's right it's really right. I mean you know there's so much focus in the United States about what trump did or didn't do to respond here domestically but the real problem in the one that's GonNa stick with us for a much longer. Period of time is the fact that outside the US. America is nowhere to be seen in responding to this crisis and think of how incredibly different that is from two thousand two thousand nine or nine eleven. When not only did we have a rally around the flag effect? Domestically I mean you know Bush after nine eleven was ninety. Two percent approval trump. Today's forty six literally half that right and that's after a bomb but the transatlantic alliance is not coming together. The Chinese certainly are not following the Americans arguably the Chinese out in front even though they're responsible for the cover up the initial outbreak there. Us is nowhere on the global stage. In fact you've got trump saying he's thinking about defunding the World Health Organization which one organization that's actually charged to fight a pandemic and now I've just seen we're we're getting involved. I saw that we WANNA stand in the way of the IMF loaning money Iran under a pandemic and it the entire handling of Iran. Here I look. There's part of me that understands the desire that says maybe the Iranian people will finally see what. It's like to have a horrendous regime. You know this is the price you pay but is that the American way the American ways that the humanitarian way is the one that said you know we really have a problem with your regime but We're GONNA WE'RE GONNA WE'RE GONNA. Put that on pause while we figure out this virus. Yeah I mean I worry that the support for what the American way is in what we stand for inside. The United States has been eroding for such a long time for so much money that was spent in blood and lives lost on in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. For so many Americans that feel like we've taken care of them at home and that inequality is only going to grow dramatically. On the back of this corona virus the level of support for any kind of humanitarian aid for any kind of. Us leadership outside. America is so much thinner than it used to be. And I don't know I mean even if you had Biden President Bernie Sanders is president. I think diplomacy would be more effective. But it's not clear to me that the Americans would be doing that much more when you see. The healthcare system at home might not be adequate to standing up for the ICU's and the medical personnel that are required to ensure that we don't have triage like they did in northern Italy now. This is the conundrum that I think we're in is that. This virus has exposed a lot of societal problems that we have to deal with domestically. Yeah and yet It's also going to reveal a lot of problems around the world that would demand our leadership but maybe too inward looking up to see it. I mean what we need to do clearly is that when there is the real shortfall. And it's not it's not here yet. I mean we we have. We've stopped our economy Europeans of stop their economy. We have the money to ensure that we get through the next three months and without implosion but the developing world. Which doesn't have the health care that we do. They don't have the ability to social distance when you've got large percentage of the population without sanitation and in shared quarters and the rest and they can't afford to stop their economies. They're gonNA need the kind of ten percent of GDP relief that we've given ourselves in America and they're not gonNa have nothing close so the question is in the summer when the IMF is out of money and everyone's looking to the United States to avoid the next series of emerging market crises. I mean economies crumbling much worse than what we're seeing in Iran right now because a much larger group of countries that matter more economically a lot more people and countries were friendly and well disposed to. What do we do? Do we stand up at that point or do we let them fall. And and I I I'm not. I'm not sure that we want to know the answer to that truck but we are going to find it out. We're GONNA find out before the election. Well that's the the the other the other thing that's interesting. You think it's going to happen that fast. I mean obviously in the initial IMF thing. I agree with that but I guess the larger question I have is is. What is the world's going to look like after the pandemic because it feels like there's going to be a major shifts and let's go by continent here I want to start with? Europe is the EU exist in its current form in a decade. It probably does. I'm much less comfortable making that call than I was even six months ago. I mean the potential for an economic crisis in Italy which has been the worst hit so far by corona virus. They're all so the country that has been most susceptible among the larger economies to nationalist anti-establishment governance the most Popular Party in Italy. Right now is the lega the league and Salvini the former deputy. Pm WHO's not in power right now but probably will and if he takes over this country when the economy's freefall in the Europeans aren't doing very much for him a call to leave Europe would be serious and I don't know how you deal with it. I know that Hungary with with Orban's Victoria von leading took took the advantage of this crisis. Didn't let it go to waste as rahm Emanuel would say yup and instead he He basically dissolved parliament. He rid himself of rule of law and he allowed him to jail using some incredibly forceful new laws again. Anti free speech laws for up to five years anyone that he considers to be hostile on a political opponent and not only is Europe too busy to censure him but the Polish government you need unanimity the Polish government's going to support Hungary. So I mean what? Europe stands for the idea that they have common values rule of law and independent judiciary that care about civil society. You can't say that about Europe today. Never mind the lack of open borders. I mean all the borders in Europe right now at least to close all right so there's Europe a- border bordering on it's A. It's certainly their crippled right now. China's standing has been damaged. I guess the question I have for you is for. How long and is this new? I guess renewed rivalry between the United States and China is really what's going to define global affairs for the next decade. The important thing is that the Chinese economy is almost back to running. Its supply chain right now. You know we've been assessing things like traffic patterns satellite imagery talking to a lot of CEOS that have supply chain on the ground there there at about seventy percent right now and they'll probably be at full functioning by May in other words while the Americans and Europeans are still stopped. The Chinese are going to be able to become the factory for the world again and that combined with the extraordinary technologically empowered surveillance state that the Chinese have which if I allow them to shut down You know ensure one hundred percent compliance on social distancing in the workplace on public transportation in restaurants and if they see additional outbreaks they don't tell us about the cases but they know about them and they closed things back down so the ability of the Chinese government handle this pandemic after they lied about it after their initial cover up and and actually get their economy back to functioning again get their people back to functioning again as the society used to really as well beyond what we could imagine in any democracy and that combined with the fact you know you were just talking to me about how the Americans you can't really see us doing the humanitarian aid. We used to but the Chinese even though they're not doing nearly what the Americans would have historically they're the only country doing much of anything right now and since they're the ones with the medical supply chain that we all need and they're the ones with the excess medical personnel that we all need even a little bit. I mean if if it's carrot and stick internationally and trump is all about stick. I mean I I'll grant you that. The Chinese carrot isn't very big and is maybe a little rotten but it's the only carrot on offer and if you're an American ally in in Europe that is trying to get through this crisis and you desperately need masks and testing kits. You desperately need medical personnel. If you're an emerging market that's GONNA face true disillusion of your economy over the next three to six months. You're really going to appreciate the fact that the Chinese are offering you anything so I think China's GonNa come out of this actually looking a lot stronger in their relations with a Lotta countries around the world. And I'm not sure we're ready for that. Only is that only because of our reputation is only because they look good compared to us. We'll certainly that kind of matters. I mean in the sense that are real the wheel the reason we beat the Soviets yet we spent them into the ground militarily but the Soviet people didn't believe in their model anymore and they believed in the American model. They thought that we lead. By EXAMPLE THEY WANNA to system looked more like our system and I gotTa tell you chuck you know I. I don't believe there's any moral equivalence between the US and communist China. Not at all. But I'm an American. If I look at other countries around the world and their citizens and particularly their citizens that feel like their own leaders have lost legitimacy their own governments have failed them in you and I know there's a larger and larger group of those people now and will be in the next few years. They're starting to look at the Chinese model as more attractive. They're starting to say. Why are we following the United States of American? You're going to see it. In Southeast Asia certainly seat in sub Saharan Africa. You'll see it in east southern Europe the poorer countries that have less strong institutions. And you'll even start seeing it in South America. I think that really matters well in my little tour here. I want to go to our hemisphere because there's two leaders in particular that I'm curious about I feel like one of them isn't going to survive this crisis it's Anglo in Mexico and Bolles Bolsonaro in Brazil. They're both sort of. It's so funny. Both two sides of the same coin in some ways one from the right one from the left but both authoritarian in their own way. You know you're the first person that's brought this up to me and it's it's exactly on point because they are the two leaders that have been most opposed to just basic medical science in their policy response you would think that trump would occupy the pole position there. He really doesn't I mean he's just narcissists all about him but actually the true failings have been Mexico and Brazil and the popularity of both of these leaders while trump's has gone up a little bit they've been in the toilet and both of another Brazilian economy was doing pretty well beforehand and they've just been through this impeachment and horrible set of corruption cases. With all of these ministers and presidents caught up in it for years so they don't want to impeach Bolsonaro but he's in a lot of trouble and he is going to lose a lot of his support base. He's certainly losing a reformist coalition that he had built allowing him to try to move the country forward economically. And you know. He almost fired his Health Minister. The the doctor foul she of. Brazil who was by far the most popular political character in Brazil right now because he's calm and he's speaking with authority of course. Bolsonaro can't handle anybody more popular than him so he was going to let them go and he had to back away from it because the social media outcry was huge and his own presidential administrators. Told him. Don't do it but he's angry. He's itching for a fight and he wants to restart the economy and this is GonNa kill lots of Brazilians. So it's it's a big problem and in Mexico. It's a similar kind of thing. It's very arrogant leader. That only sees it his way or the highway the private sector in the US. Ceo's have come out in support of trump even if they don't all like them they're saying in the Rose Garden and we want to help in Mexico. The leaders of the corporate community saying this guy has no plan. He has no authority. It's really bad so in a crisis we've got red versus blue state. These countries are incredibly dysfunctional at the ground level without the hospitals that we have without the economy's we have and the governments are not taking a leadership role to respond to the worst crisis. They've seen in generations. It's really going to hurt. And it also means that what's GONNA we're not gonna be immune from that. Yeah and we're not going to be immune from our hemisphere right in Mexico. I mean some of that is going to come back to the United States. And we're going to keep those guys closed off in terms of travel for a long time. Not just a few months. You could be talking until we have an effective vaccine right well. Certainly if trump's president shirley no I do think no matter crew until we. He does see an opportunity. Here that's right that's absolutely right but I but I also think just around the world developing versus developed world if they're doing her immunity and they can't stop and they can't test this virus then we're just not going to let people travel final. Stop on my little tour here is. Our friend is our friends in Russia. Because I'm curious two things one since we are living in a pandemic world. We're going to have a corona virus election I'm not saying we aren't GonNa have outside people trying to agitate but is it. I feel like that's on the back burner. Maybe it shouldn't be maybe that the the concern over hacking of the Russians should be something that's more front burner but the second is Putin was in the middle of rewriting constitution and starting to lay that. Groundwork does this disrupt at all. It did disrupt it. He's had to push it back. I mean we know that if he has a referendum. He's going to win it because there's no democracy in Russia but they did have to push it back. He wasn't taking the virus very seriously his mayor of Russia of Jimmy. His mayor Moscow. Twelve million people Actually has taken more of a leadership role in shutting that he's been very aggressive and of course the other thing if you WanNa talk Russia's the fact that oil prices are in the twenties and that's because of a fight between the Russians and the Saudis The Russians need forty plus to balance their budget. This is really going to hurt and fiscal austerity had been where Putin was going. He can't do that right now. This economy is not very strong right. I mean it's it's smaller than the Canadian economy. It doesn't hold a candle to the US so on the one hand Russia's in a much weaker position and needs to find a way to come to a deal with the Saudis and the Americans so they can get oil prices back out of the floor right. I mean they can't they can't have the the storage units for oil overwhelmed and how functionally value in their top commodity. They've gotta find a way to come to a deal but they're also angry and Putin wants to blame someone he's GonNa blame the Americans and the ability of Russia to cause trouble in an election. I mean you've seen Wisconsin You you've seen what trump is saying about not wanting to allow a mail in ballots because it's bad for the Republicans. I mean this election in the United States. I think we'll be determined more by the courts than it will be by the voters. I honestly believe that and And certainly when the Russian see that they're going to see that there is an opportunity for them to cause a lot of mischief even without spending a lot of money yeah. I'm very concerned that a close election is going to be accepted yet and perhaps even blow is. It doesn't get fully accepted by a large chunk of America's this election was rigged in so many different ways. And you already see it coming. No you you do Final final question is as we know. This economy is GONNA real for a while. I think I part of me thinks he'll be more layoffs in twenty twenty one this year be as as major corporations who got it through now will suddenly see cost savings in how they did it but Which tells me I think we're this is a two three. Maybe four year recession in some form. But what what what? What are you warning people about? I mean I think the recession itself is more in terms of actual contraction of the economy is less than a year and that's because of the immense amount of money that will be put in to ensure it doesn't go farther But that of course probably means you've got a deficit of twenty percent of GDP this year and that's a problem right and then the corporates. I assure you almost every major multinational corporation is gonna find ways to work more efficiently with fewer people and this fourth industrial revolution is gonNA feel like a post industrial revolution for many many members of the working middle class in the US. And I don't know how I know how we get through the next six months we can throw money at it. We can make sure that people have relief but for the next two three years what we do. For ten percent of the American population that feels like additional ten percent. That feels like they have nothing functional to contribute I. I don't know the answer to that Chuck and I. I don't know that Biden or trump have the answer to that I- Adrienne had the answer. Universal basic income. Spain's doing Spain is doing it spans. Doing it's it's very expensive but you know and I'm not sure it's best way at the problem but I don't really. The problem is going to have to be addressed in ways that well beyond any fixes. That people are thinking about right now. I can already here as of selling at the tech dividend the pandemic dividend. And we can come up with some interesting in Bremmer President of the Eurasia Group. Self Self distancing in New York City. Stay healthy and safe my fred. Avoid People Chuck good to talk to you people. Yeah that's for sure. Void people ingredients books. You'll always learn something thanks again. You've been listening to the chuck. Todd Castro meet the press. Today's episode was produced by Justice Green and Matt Rivera. John Reece's our executive producer. Steve Look ties. The head of PODCAST FOR NBC News. Our music composed by spoke media. You can meet the press daily on MSNBC every day at five the big show. Every Sunday morning I'm doing a special hour of MSNBC at one o'clock ten am on the West Coast is well so thanks for listening. Thanks FOR WATCHING. Stay safe social distance. Remember if we get through the hard stuff now we football season in September. Think of it that way. Thanks for listening in until we uploaded. Go Willie geist here. This week on the Sunday. Sit Down podcast. I had to Waco Texas to get together with fixer upper stars chip and Joanna. Gaines talk about turning a local business into an empire. Get that conversation now for free wherever you download your podcasts.

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