William Winram talks diving with Great White Sharks


The mindfulness is sitting in the room. Cross-legged it can be every aspect of your day screen. So you the woman's project you are are helping to research sharks by tagging and tracking. What are you looking for him? What's what's the whole intent. Why it started off just when I my My competitive career took off. I done an interview and was asked about background. I said it's done some spearfishing exploring I got invited to help. Scientists tag a difficult to approach species of shark. And it just kind of snowballed. Because you know one of the researchers that amid in two thousand nine Elliott two tags so there's an enormous lack of funding and then you know scientists. I mean I talked to scientists. They you know they fill out. Reams reams of paperwork Sit in wait to get a five thousand dollar grant for research. That's going to require fifty to one hundred thousand and so I just you know it's kind of what my parents instilled in my brother and I being of service and I was excited. That could use my skills to help. Place the tags then. We redesigned the tagging system to make it more user friendly and more friendly to the shark and then it was raising trying to raise funds to buy tags Trying to expand the educational opportunities bringing awareness to people and initially in the same year that the tagging it was also sharing with people. Different perspective on sharks They're not mindless killing machines. So we were doing that through photos and through films to kind of express that and now I mean it's been. It's been twelve years since we were doing that. But the so the Waterman Project supports research so sometimes we just go on site and place the tags for the scientists other times. We buy the TAGS. We organized the expedition vessels usually we fund them either through donors or combination of donors and like echo supporters. That WANNA come on the expedition so they pay for spot on the boat which helps offset the cost of the boat and then photographic and film it to be able to communicate about it whether it's in conferences or on social media or via documentary films because for example. I did A. I did a conference in the Swiss Alps Kimber. How many years ago it was and it was a mountain film festival and I I got invited. I was kind of like okay. I don't really know fit in there but my business partner. Michelle and I figured out a way that we could kind of fit it in funny enough. And this goes to kind of for me illustrated. There's something about the ocean doesn't matter where you live. People are drawn to it. They wound up having to fill me live and be me into another auditorium because they had too many people present nursing. Which was you know is it was. It was really cool but what I loved was. There was a journalist who said he said I apologize in advance for my question. I'm not trying to be an asshole. like okay now you got. My curiosity piqued here. He says you know. Wow you're photos the images everything. You're saying it's amazing. It's incredible and then he's hesitating. I said please just throw it out there. You're not going to offend me. And he says I just. I don't get it. We're in the Swiss Alps zoom out and Film Festival. And you're talking about the ocean. What's the connection and I smiled and I looked at my said I love you. Thank you so much you know. Then I repeated the questions that nobody heard it and then I said well. Fifty percent of the oxygen in the air. You're breathing here. Comes from the ocean. twenty five percent of the protein consumed on the planet comes from the ocean and I went through all of the aspects that connect us. I said so. What drains into the streams and rivers up here winds up in the ocean. We're all connect. We can't get away from the ocean so it was you know it was a beautiful opportunity to connect people to the ocean. That don't live anywhere near it. Yeah it is cool. I the other thing is we have the ocean inside of us. You know what I mean. This is more of them. But you know we're we're almost the I don't know if this is true. But we're like the exact proportion of water and land as the Earth's pretty fascinating and when you go into the ocean like you said that there's a certain energy is like going back to the womb. It's incredibly calming and healing and grounding in one the gap to ordinary way for human beings to heal and to be more connected to the earth which makes them more connected to each other. Everyone should go into the ocean as much as possible in this ashamed. That people can't live on the ocean. Even though close to eighty percent of the you know the planet is bounded by notion the talk about sharks again because most people are just terrified of sharks. You know we used to have a set. I don't know of any navy seal. That's ever been bitten or killed by a shark so I think there is something about the way. The Navy seals mind the way we were trained in our comfort in the water. You know we're just peaceful in the water and I think that has something to do with it but we used to joke with new trainees all the time. Say we're going out for a long swim and you know we heard this report as another great white kind of lurking around. But don't worry about it you know. Don't don't think about it. All they can think about is a shark and tell them you know the way to avoid or deal with a shark attack if you if you see a shark is to stab your buddy and swim like hell yes. Make sure you're not the last one back to the boat the faster swimmer. Then your buddies. Kinda like that's same way survive. A bear attack just got buddies anyways. It's a joke but why do let me ask the question? Why do people get bit or eaten by sharks? I mean your experiences that these are beautiful intelligent animals and you can hang out with them but why most people wouldn't be comfortable doing that. You're not to say the least. Yeah so that's I mean you get bit by a Dog. A domesticated animal right. The thing was sharks and this is I mean. I've been surfing since I was a kid. I am a waterman so I'm in the water all the time. My first encounter. I won't go into it because it's a lengthy story but was with a four meter tiger shark alone and it scared the crap out of me. I was petrified because of everything that I had been fed everything that I had read but the animal that I encountered in that first first encounter at no point did she aggress me zero aggression all you know when I sat on the beach after that encounter and just you know like what just happened in reflection what I just experienced was a very shy and curious creature. And that was actually. She was the reason that that was back before the Internet. And I laugh now laugh. You WanNa Shark diving back then was like you know you're looking at the coastline. You're looking in books about What is the you know the region that these sharks inhabit? And then you go and you go and look now you Google Shark dive in two hundred and fifty million pages on Google exactly season about Obama back then. There was nothing but that basically triggered me to want. I want to understand what's the truth. And that's for me. That's been a with internal martial arts with all of these things. What is the truth? What is the truth of our potential? What is the truth of the natural world? So I you know I was. You know the the next time I actively went looking I was wasn't I was nervous but that was it but in find and sharks and it just progressed to now in general like for example Guess and those of You. Listening to this podcast. You can ask yourself what happens if I take a straight razor and slash both my forearms and then squeeze my hands and dropped blood in the water. Will the shark react to it? Yes or no and I can tell you I have done that but I have done something less drastic. They don't care. Human blood does not trigger them really. Yep that's unusual. 'cause you would think obviously no no. It's not a real. We're taught that it would but it doesn't. That's not what triggers them and. It's really interesting because you think about this. I mean for example when we go out to tag great white sharks are problem is. We're oftentimes working off a small boat and the sharks don't care about the small boat the care about the big cage diving boats because those are the ones that are going to have food so they'll stick around those boats so you know how do we attract them. So if I put say Yellowfin tuna blood in the water for sure. That's something that Great White Shark would love to eat but that requires current for the sent to be able to travel to the shark. What attracts them? I was curious how so they can't just mel something from faraway. No no it has to travel. It has to travel in that food medium so the first attraction for them is sound so and think about it. We used to laugh. We had a guy on one of our expeditions that wanted to use a mono fin to dive with sharks. Were like as no you. Don't you know don't go there. He's like not. I go dude on your best day. You're like a physically handicapped dolphin or Sea Lion. You're going to get nailed. And he's like no no no no. I'm really getting the water and then I just turned to the other guys and they said okay. Well should we put Gopro and we'll get the predation at least on camera so we can make some money off it or what? And then the guy is like dude. That's not cool. What are you guys going to do an attack me? I don't have to do that. The moment you get in with Mono Finn. You are going to resemble injured Marine Mammal or fish and you're going to trigger them on instinctual level they're going to nail you and they're gonNA come so fast. There's nothing you can do about it. And so our thing is yeah. We'll put in the water but will smack. The surface of the water will thrash around will do things that are not rhythmic. That are irregular and that tends to attract them so the problem you have for humans recreating in the ocean. We make irregular sound. We make noise. We make unnatural noise and then to top it off. You know surfer sitting on a board chatting was buddies not paying attention Legs Dangling in the water then. There's that spastic paddle which is making noise to catch the wave and then the paddle back so you know shark dishes cruising along may get and I've seen that you know I know when I dive in areas where you know there's a there's a reasonably good chance they're going to be a shark. I wear a mask around my neck. It's not on my face it's I WAS SURFING. Hawaiian wiped out and on the second wave in the set. I see a Tiger Shark and I'm like Sweet get to do some shark. Diving spun them ask around cleared it and ducked under and through the whitewashing stuff. I manage to make eye contact cruise down and then so I swam out with my board in tow and then Signaled the guys. There's a tiger shark here to stay cool a deal with her and I could see right away. She was just curious but she was sticking around. And so I just I asked a buddy to take my board and I swam at her and she moved away and then I just kept following her. I followed her out and then she was like okay. I'm Outta here and then I saw swim off a new. She wasn't gonNA come back and I hung out for a couple sets on the outside just to make sure but she's pretty much gone so the thing is if the great white if I I take great white sharks and put them in a different class because tiger sharks. I've never ever been aggressed by Tiger Shark in thirty five years I've never seen them go off but I have seen great whites. I've had them go off on me because somebody else made a mistake. There you know they switch on and if you do something that engages like one of the rules of the road is that you don't ever sprint anywhere underwater. When you're dealing with great white sharks You do that. You engage them triggers. Emma Yeah so you know it's the biggest problem for humans is that they're not aware that the shark is there and the shark is just being curious and you know look. We want to buy food. We go in a supermarket the labels all there. We don't have labels on us and if the shark is curious in thinks that we might be Food or if it just wants to figure out it bites it tastes it. It puts the thing in its mouth and this is why you get over the years. There's been videos or photos of you know sharp biting an inanimate. Object and author mindless. They're this that that no they're what they don't have hands on experience. Yeah they're exploring and they it with their mouths so you know. The thing that we do is make sure that we don't ever become part of their exploration in that sense of it. He folks I want to tell you about a coffee alternative that I really enjoy. That has medicinal mushrooms and adapted. Jen's it's got caffeine but one seventh as a cup of coffee and you get the sustainable energy without the anxiety or jitters with a crash of coffee is got turmeric for inflation cinnamon to suppress sugar craving Cacao and Chai for mood and energy lion's Mane for Focus Court accepts for your physical performance and Chagas and ratio for immune stress response is loaded. Gives me energy and focus without those jitters? You get drink coffee. They donate a portion of each month. Revenue to the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. Which is important to me because we support vets with post medic stress in those things helped with depression. The team at mud water is giving you a special code. Unbe don't mind where you can receive twenty percents off your order at their website. Their website is mud. W. T. R. Dot Com this mud. W. T. R. DOT COM. Get Twenty percents off using the code unbeatable mine. Who Have you ever been bitten? Or what's the closest? You've never never been bitten a couple of times. I've had great white sharks test me so they did. The worst thing is when they come out of the depths and their head wagging which means accelerating and the normal reaction. We had this with a bunch of the ECHO supporters. They were in the cage. When short did this and it was the first time it ever happened to me and I dealt with it and we got out and things coming at you or at the cage. No is coming at me out of the death. How do you deal with that? You see the shark coming at you fast. And you're just staring at it going. Holy Shit you just stay calm what do you do? I went straight at it you did. I just I was well. I was horizontal. And at the time. It wasn't you know it's and this goes to mindfulness. There's a mental space that I'm in which usually after expeditions like that. I am tired because I'm pushing myself to to do to sustain a mental focus that I wouldn't do in normal daily life and in that instance I remember I just knew I had no idea the why the why didn't matter and split second. I was horizontal and I was and I've got it on film. I was filming and so it was simple. I just changed my vertical position and started to accelerate towards her and it had the you know the desired effect which is like she was she hesitated and I accelerated even more. Because what I want is speed because that gives me maneuverability and You know and this is. This is a split second. My intellect is not involved. Who but I know. In retrospect why did it was because I've got to behave not like pray and your gut instinct Fear based is go to the boat. But you have no chance to get to the boat. So I went out her. I just went straight down adder and you know at the last minute. I fire the shutter my camera which at that time. I wasn't using a mirror. Liska Samir list doesn't make a noise making DSL are which made a noise which also caused her hesitate slightly and then I just loved myself up above so at that point if she opens the mouth I just close it as I leave her nose to push myself out of the way and then I'll smack her in the play and and they don't come back when you hit them in the gills you don't injure them but they don't come back. They're you know they're like we're done goodbye interesting so reminded me of that story. Unbroken about the resembling need. You see that new movie. No fessing stories Olympic runner. He ends up getting drafted goes what goes into World War Two and becomes be twenty four or something and then he gets shot down sixty days at sea and they're just about you know at the end of this thing and they. They see Japanese zero in their flagging down. Because I think you know at least were found diet. C. Zero comes along and start strafing them this he and this one of the guys they jump under the little rubber dinghy and sure enough. There's some sharks down there who are hungry instead of shirts. Cammisa ON IF THEY GO above they're gonNA get shot by the Japanese zero but underneath the boat they're going to get eaten by the shark. Zampa has a presence of mind to just wait until the shark is right up close and then punches it in the notes and he says it goes away. Sort of what you're talking about but you're you're getting him in the Gill. The nose will the problem with the the knows. If you miss you either go above it or you go in the Mouth Right. And it doesn't have the same effect. Gill plate is life and death for them any contact with the. I've never had a shark comeback that I've hit in the Gill Plate and it's safer for you because you're not gonNA risk putting your hand in the mouth as well. Well you know what I'm not going to go out and practice this skill. I might visualize it. How's that but you know what it's it's I took my brother who's my brother was a f. Eighteen fighter weapons certified. So I guess the Canadian equivalent of top gun. Who got a bit bored and gotTa love that? Yeah I know. I'm bored of flying jets at Mach Four. I gotta find someone else to do exactly. So he applied to the special forces and he made it and so the the latter half of his military career was that in his back and forth from the two disciplines but he came with me early this year to dive with tiger. Sharks is really interesting seeing his you know because him and I share information. We talk about a lot of different stuff you know. And it's about the mental toll. The mind the mental preparation the mental space. That you put yourself in when dealing with different situations and you know it's fascinating I I wouldn't hesitate to take you diving with sharks even great white sharks. I think your you know your training. You would be able to tell me Yeah? I'm up for it or not Which is different for a lot of people you know because a lot of people are just they'll get so excited about they just Wanna be able to say they did it and write an right mental emotional state not just jump into it so to speak. I remember we swim around Ford Island in Hawaii when I was at seal delivery vehicle team won and we would swim over. You know these. Little pods of Tiger Sharks. They cluster around the other probably rule. It was really cool and I never felt any sense of danger or risk. And we're all swimming as you know. Get you into that nice kind of mindful state anyways so especially in the ocean nor did we attract their attention. They must have been used to seeing a lot of activity. You know because it's in the Pearl Harbor area then got omit though. I still have a little fear back to the free diving like I. I'm fascinated with going down there and the stillness I haven't been. I think I've been down to like one hundred twenty feet a couple of bills and boy tell you what when you when you're down that deep and you realize just how vast the ocean is and you wonder like what's underneath you. I do get a little bit of a Twang of like you never know and I could imagine as you were talking earlier seeing shark come out of the depths would be utterly terrifying and. I think that would be interesting training. Go down there and just to deal with that. Fear confronted and realize it. This is just fear. Yeah do it in a in a in a manner that's controlled ram where you feel confident that you haven't placed the kinds of things that can if you know a lot of people like. I'm doing a Webinar on this Thursday ritual have passed. I mentioned that the beginning by the time this has posted a lot of. It's going to be dealing with how to overcome fear because everyone's freaking out right now at this Ron virus and you know I'm sure everyone's got their take on it but for me like its first to identify the things that you're fearful around in obviously this idea of sharks still kind of gets me a little bit. And the only way to overcome that is to understand it like you have is to to lean into it and to go toward it instead of avoided or go away from it and and to recognize that the fear is usually self-induced. It's once you get a little bit more information and knowledge you know most of what we fear is actually just you just falls now. That's why I love that. Acronym false evidence or false expectation. That appears real. It's like you're saying about the sharks. People have a false expectation and that could actually lead to more danger then the truth. The truth is they're not looking for human meat necessarily know and that's also as evidence by more often than not they don't they bite and they leave they leave now but a fear is an interesting one because I have You know as a kid I wanted to be an actor but realized early on my stage fright was GonNa make that extremely challenging and lot of people have that you know. They say that it's public. Speaking in you know being performing in front of audience people fear that just as much as if your death or sharks almost. Yeah so gone into that one and to investigate that further well I started. I started doing public talks and I remember early days literally. I was paralyzed behind the podium. And I was like you know this is really getting the. I'm I'm I'm being overtaken by this. I need to give myself space. So I hit the start to the first slide and I had gone into that. You know narrow focused semi-panic state and was in the process of you know using my breathing to bring myself back and at least get a handle on it not realizing I had started. And it's a sequence where there's a great white shark coming in in the from the distance and then a diver swimming down which is me and then it flashes to the shark getting bigger the diver diving down and of course I had put the jaws soundtrack to it with a very specific purpose and then I look out from behind the podium and the way I did it purely by accident was so comedic that the whole audience burst out laughing and I realized my mic was on and I said and I stuck my head out again and then quickly whipped it back and I said Yeah so right now the thought of standing up in front of you guys scares the shit out of me. But what you're seeing on film doesn't scare me at all and they all laughed and applauded and passed it and I got up and then I went on with the point of of airing that You know that sequence and then showing the same sequence again without the music designed to influence them negatively to talk about how were manipulated. And you know so I I mean I love I love engaging people love Speaking publicly I still have you know I I still get nervous beforehand. And I don't know that that will ever change but it's not a is not crippling but it's something that I don't you know I've had since I was a little kid and you know everyone has very normal. You just have to learn you. Learn how to manage. Yeah that that experience that we call fear and then to find a way to kind of lean into it when we have to perform right and like as a navy seal people you say well. Navy seals are taught not to experience fear. And that's bullshit you know every time I parachute jumped. Freefall jumped. I experienced that. Because you're basically hurling yourself out of airplane going four hundred miles an hour at seventeen to twenty thousand feet at night you know into the ocean. Most of the time it's terrifying but you would breathe into it and you would experience that are arising of that sensation and then attach a new story to it so for me. The story was you know. I'm a highly trained operator and I'M GONNA KICK ASS and take names on this up and I'm not GonNa let this sensation debilitate me so now. Let's you know it became more of like a excitement. Were anticipation or mission focus. You know what I mean. Yeah Yeah I think so. You learn how to manage it and redirect energy and not get crippled like you said in the story of Jaws. That movie did terrified. Everybody just in that sound that Donna. Donna right immediately triggers people back into that state. Dory just a story that you're telling about the sensation so if you if you tell a different story when the sensation arises then it channels it in a new way and you can use it know for good and so like this Corona Virus. People are telling them the story. That's being fed by the media and it's it's debilitating I'm whereas if you put a new story my story with my tribe and my company is this is amazing opportunity for many different reasons to strengthen yourself to learn to grow to to to pivot if you're if you unfortunately get fired while a great opportunity to pit. Maybe what you were doing wasn't the right thing or you've been thinking about doing something new so now's the time to take action because who wants to sit in their buttons collect unemployment you know for months. So what's the opportunity less? Lean into it and learn some skills. We got some time alone. Deepen our connection to our family get out into nature breathe. Some fresh air go in the ocean swim with the sharks. Whatever it is a great opportunity. Some change the story exactly. I just want to say I have. I have a proposal for you all right. Let's do it. I'm afraid of heights. Ought to be how to jump out of a plane. I'll teach you how to divert sharks and I would have to find a certified instructor to do that because I don't think I'm qualified. They wouldn't let me near the parachute with with you but I would do it with you. That'd be fun to talk about that. Okay if you've been a longtime listener of my podcast you might have heard me talk about electric muscle stimulation and the powered up and know that. I'm a big fan of it. You're not familiar. Ems uses electrical signals sent into your muscle to force contractions those contractions increase blood circulation. The flush waste from the muscles increase the muscles potential anti perch. Affi as a natural adjunct to your training. The power can help relieve pain. Recover faster and improve your performance. 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That's you know when people ask me what is to kind of try to explain it that way you got the breath and you got the imagery and you've got some subtle movements and you could probably find some martial application for some of those moments but generally they're not they're more medical more spiritual and that could be very powerful for people just to bring into your daily life doesn't take months and months or years like touchy to learn simple form. You can do it like right here right now so that brings my question. What is one of the most powerful Chittagong exercises that you found benefit from that you might be able to share at least verbally. Share with our guess While the most powerful thing that I think that I highly recommend for anyone to work on is their breathing and just optimizing their breathing as an example The average person briefed fifteen to twenty times per minute in inhale exhale. That's twenty two to twenty four thousand times a day one of the biggest benefits and this was you know the the things that I took from Tai Chi Bagua into my clinical practice working with people with anywhere from minor to severe orthopedic. Crippling problems was to address their breathing into look at how the breathing impacted their their health. Vitality and you know doing that looking at my own. My breathing rate sitting working at the desk is three or four per minute to working on that for a long time. Yeah and so In terms of and what are the benefits in your opinion are from a medical respect for medical perspective I was I was participating to a study in Germany. And this is one of the Times where twigged on all of this stuff from the scientific side of it but for example my lung volume is more than eleven leaders which normal for my height is about seventy eight leaders So I managed to increase my lung volume by the last. I checked with three years ago but just in the last since two thousand five was when I started applying all of this stuff more fully because it served me in the competitive sport but reduce my residual volumes of for those people that are sent residual volume. Is that volume there? That you cannot ever move you can never exhale it. And it's a question of flexibility of the ribcage in the diaphragm through so typically medically speaking as you age use stereotypically stiffen up so that residual grows. You have less and less of the APPS that more air that you can't move so you residual alier talk. Yeah just sitting there. So my residual volume has been reduced and my total lung. Volume has been increased as well as my vital capacity vital capacities. Are you can exhale total lung. Volume is the total volume of air in your lungs and in this testing. I was hooked up tubes. You know should in my arms and sitting there and I was at a thing in my head and they were testing. They were looking for signs of brain organ damage when doing breath hold. And I'm going to have to do four minute. Breath holds with my chin vice staring at a screen with headphones blaring music. And it was. Yeah it was really not fun comfortable. Yeah and I was sitting there and I was looking and they were still doing setup. And all my stats. Were on this the big screen and I started doing my normal breathing thing and was watching the numbers change and then I heard stress in their voices. I don't understand German. The lead scientists came around any Sorry William Have a problem. Just WanNa know Do you want us to take all of the stuff off? And then when we solve the problem will get you back up again or anyone. I was like What took an hour to get this stuff on me. I don't really want to go through. That again depends like what's the problem now. Of course when you talk your co two levels rise because you're not exchanging gases as efficiently as if you were just breathing and so I had started talking and my co two levels are going up and the head researcher than Here's something from the other doctors behind him. I said what's what's the problem. What's what's going on. And he looks at the other researcher. He looks at the thing he says. You're doing something and I said I was just breathing. I said why he said while we thought there was a problem with the C O two sensor so the short version of all of this is that mice yo to levels they had never ever seen. Co Two levels that low with anyone. Even people hyperventilating in hyperventilation comes with some very nasty Negative side effects so I discovered the that and also discovered the breathing rate in terms of gas exchange. I'm able to do dive profiles that my friends at our technical divers. They're like dude. You're insane you should. You should be a chamber So you know that I mean the you think anybody can train that argue. Are you a map? -solutely like your your friend on the couch but in a different way no. I think I'm breathing the easiest. I mean I I teach breathing and I teach people do corporate stuff. It's the easiest thing you know. It's the one thing you do every day all day. So one thing you can't do without and it's know it's really really. It's not difficult to change your breathing. Patterns just takes yeah takes regular practice and I think it's it's like you know you. You touched on something very key there. Which is you know it's great to do. The Meditation Retreated. Really immerse yourself in something like that and I. I really enjoy those kinds of experiences. But the real work is done every day and the end of. Mindfulness isn't sitting in the room cross-legged if you know or doing bagua it can be every aspect of your day when you're showering when you're making food when you're working at your computer you're you know you're being present your being in your body. You're feeling your body. You're you're you're not thinking about something else. Your focused on what you're doing so it's the same thing with my for example. I'll be sitting in a plane and I'll do exercises in my seat Simple yeah so. It's just really integrating into daily life and I think that And you know while I've been telling these stories. I'm trying to think of something simple for your listeners. To do particularly taking the corona virus which targets the respiratory system. A simple thing to do. Seated at the desk is too. I just taking inventory of your breathing so breathe in and out a few cycles and what moves what expands what contracts when you exhale and then you know lean forward. Put Your elbows on your your knees and breathe in that position And just do a few cycles and again just being present. And what's what's expanding when you breathe in and what's you know shrinking when you breathe out and when you've done three of that sit back upright and go back to your normal breathing cycle and is it the same or has it changed great awareness so mindful. You're not thinking about anything else. You're just focusing on this one action and then noticing how your breasts is affected by your physiology and change in posture. And then do that while you're walking out of the chair. Yeah exactly exactly and and being present you know when I was when I was working clinically the difference when you get somebody to be present. And they're aware of whatever the movement was before and then they're aware of how the movements changed they will hold the change much more effectively than if they're not present is if you know there. There is a passive. You know I'm here you're supposed to treat me. Baba whereas the present and you get them involved in the movement especially with the before and after there is a a an unconscious re patterning which then turns they tend to hold the change more effectively that that was what I noticed over the years. That's meaning what we can talk forever but probably shit all right. So what's next for you? What are you gonNA go tackle any more world records this year or once? The once were let out of lockdown. That is yeah. I was Well funny enough. When you're talking about you know being positive things and looking at opportunity I'm taking this Quarantine is an opportunity to work on a book that I wanted to write for several years. Right yeah some. I'm excited about that. And I had planned to attempt a world record this year. I don't know if that still possible. And there's a film project a documentary that we've been putting together. Which is you know. It's everything's on hold at the moment but we're still doing the developmental pre-production work we'll see shark project Yeah it's it's sharks bree mammals the ocean in general. It's exciting. We've got a a BAFTA winning producer and The gentleman that worked with great white shark. Three D Just incredibly talented creative. Human beings are on board as well and some very talented young filmmaker. So it's an exciting project like I say too much about it yet but posted when both the book in that come out. We'll help you get some awareness and promote a super thank you. Yeah so your website is William Win. Ram they say that right. Dot Com W. I n. Ram William Rim Rindt. Yes that's hard to say mass exit women. Yeah and then also the Waterman Project data say that ten times fast Wasserman Project DOT. Org Is the nonprofit. Yes what else would you? Where else can people find out about what you're up to or is that Social Media Instagram and facebook instagram. Handle William okay terrific and I'm thinking the only William Winter on there so I've got that advantage kind are I William. Thanks so much for your time. This has been a thank you mark. This has been great. The great work. I hope to meet you in person. Maybe I go swimming some tiger sharks great white even connect on that. Absolutely get when my friends. Three out of an airplane okay. Well you're absolutely welcome if I if if things turn around and I am going to be training depth this year you're welcome to come out and join happily take you deeper than you ever been a guarantee it safely. That would be amazing amazing. Well thanks again. Thank you are folks That was William Win. Rim check them out at William Windham Dot Com W. I n. Ram Celestial Dot Com or his nonprofit the Waterman Project Dot Org and stand by for more info about his book and his upcoming documentary. Mazing stuff and so Stay focused and don't succumb to the fear us. This time is opportunity to grow stronger gain momentum to pivot to do what maybe you've been putting off and to run help others the same. That's what we're doing and so This podcast is in service to that. Appreciate your support. This Mark Devine with bill mine. Who See next time. How Black Friday the freeze?

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