A whole lot of POO!
So welcome to science friction with this week is all about and the first cartoons up and guys and the Beatles guy what is that I am not touching. This is not in my job description. I'm used to these little dry pellets. I'm not the sorry. It's not happening on that yet. We are so going there folks. We're talking the Tobu's the psychology and the science of excretion the Tesha Mitchell with children's author James Foley who is the Creator and illustrator of the Super Popular S. TINCA INC graphic novels dungs. Zillah and guest renaults starring Selley. Tinca the world's foremost inventor under the age of twelve also joining us at the quantum words Science Writing Festival in Perth is I get asked half a dozen times. Every week by patients perth-based colorectal surgeon. Michael Levitt literally as my to examine them. You have to get into this. This is such an unusual question to ask. Why you doing this for a living? I'm just about to do something. Quite grotesque to them and I always say eh that during my training. That's where the opening was. Michael comes from a family line of proctology in fact. And he's like I just book is called the happy bail a user-friendly God to bow health for the whole family but white. There's a psychologist in the house to. Freud has some very interesting ideas and he to cut a long story short. He said that when you're a toddler after you've passed out instantly you develop this fascination with your bottom the sensually and with the Growing control you. Have you stink and that this is actually an important psychological time in your development. Nick has LEM is professor of psychology in College at the University of mobile author of non books including psychology in the bathroom. So yet Freud head of Field Day with kids love it adults adults cringe about it. Doctors diagnose it and surgeons help us keep it flowing on Poo. pooing and the Palaver Arandit. Let's kick off with. Nick has lung. You know sets my life mission unlike Michael But For me it wasn't really a passion. It was more just a side project but I just became so fascinated by it. I'd been a psychologist for over thirty years before I wrote this book gone through a whole training and little about depression and all about anxiety and all about human behavior but this side of behavior about excretion simply was ignored and yet there's so much suffering associated with this so much interesting psychology associated with it such psychological terrain. Isn't it there's so much shame associated with a bomb. What comes out of it about Pu excretion and look shames emotion? which it's all about hiding and we've sort of done that science as well? We don't talk about certain things even though they're so prevalent as as problems. If you think about the other end of the August or intestinal tract we have whole journals devoted to eating and eating disorders in the like which are very very serious. Important things to study. But there's at least as much suffering attached is the other end and at least much instinct stuff to talk about. Why do we have so much? Shame around two and differentiation. You know I think it's just seen as toxic stuff and it is toxic stuff. I think they're very good evolutionary reasons why we might want to keep as much Distances possible from our F- issues to the latest figures I've seen is that about two million children die from fecally transmitted material. This is stuff that is toxic to us and this very good reasons to put it as far out of mind mind inside as possible British survey that I report about my book when asked to rate the most important inventions of humanity The British public put the flush toilet about that number nine high than the combustion engine. It sounds ridiculous but at the same time hygiene so important. Freedom from disease is so important I think shame and discuss it just ways of putting things out of mind at putting things out of mom but this relationship between the mind and our intestines is opponent one and we'll come back to that because there's lots to explore law there James Foley who is fantastic material for you as a children's author and illustrator. I don't use it as an actual illustrative medium painting. Well frankly he hasn't done that yet. The camera ready for when I yeah in terms this is just coming off the discussion about shame. It seems like some kids. Don't actually have any shame in regards to You did something really hilarious. Women are a little kid and maybe we should take it more seriously. Maybe we take take it for granted that we have flushing toilets in Western society. And that's why we don't treat it as something serious. I remember the day in you when I came to school. I was a little early. I went went onto the playground and all the boys was saying these new words that I'd never heard of that was saying bum Yang Pu and now saying fat and they were all giggling. And that's when I learnt that those it's funny. I remember that day vividly which is so weird. It's such a weird memory to have like. I remember the day got married in the data and some was born but also remember that and I think ah for children's authors illustrators we kind of maybe get past some of those stages we apart of us is still a kid. I still find these things deeply funny. Even though I have to pretend that I don't when my Sunday Sunday saying those words so funny I mean fats are one of the greatest committee devices. We have brilliant and my son can with the best of them already. Eighty eight takes accurate data. It's great so yeah. I think when when I'm when I'm writing for an audience that's got the same emotional intelligence level is that I'm going to put those sorts of fat and Poo jokes. Yeah because it's just hilarious and kids love stuff. They're not allowed to talk about the things things that we are disgusted by shine for things. Kids love to boo year. I think I love my parents embarrassed to introduce sell eighteen Kaz stinker. Yes and her little brother Joey and a best friend. Shelly is sent tastic grandmother. WHO's a former racecar driving mechanic but sellers this great little character and and Sally become a vehicle for you to explore science really? Yeah they do an end to a sci if I trump as well so the first book is called robot. And it's about robotics but really it's the story of Frankenstein. Sally decides that had baby brother is to stinky and gross and keeps breaking her invention so she is going to try and replace him with a giant robot Co. Breitbart and he's supposed to be just as a brother should be perfect until the chores. He can fix broken machines. He has a cupcake and built into his chest but then the remote control breaks and he goes completely crazy and becomes quite a threat to them. He becomes the worst brother so they have to find a way to stop him. Okay but the only poo in that is in his nappy. That's right becomes more of a deal in the other books. Deng Viollis and sell his best friend. Charlie comes into it and her name Rosie Charlie is a biologist biologist under the age of eleven and she has a pit Dung Beetle Douglas and the Dung Beetle accidentally gets zapped with grocery and turns into a giant Deng. Baitul that rolls a giant ball of Dung towards the town whopping big Godzilla sized Deng Beta xactly poo so very seriously very stuff up for the most Franklin so good what you introduce us to is. The unsung hero of the insect will Dan Beatles remains Dung beetles are amazing. Absolutely incredible the piles of Poo would be surrounding us. We'd be swamped in them. We'd be upset. Done battles exactly right. Yeah and this is actually an issue in Australia. Because there's there's dung beetles on every continent on earth except FANTASTICO and they've been there for millions of years evolving alongside the animals that are almost contents so he industry we had dung beetles that had about longside marsupials and they were used to very dry penalty little droppings. We have two species of role is in his triumph that genus is called CICIS so so they had named after the Great Guy who was rolling the rock up the hill in it but always robot damn so those two brands of two species of rolls in astride. The other one's not rollers. The dig is his and tunnel is different types of dominates. So these guys they would clean onto the side of a kangaroo on Rodney. They bottoms and so when kangaroo had a little Pooh the dung beetles could could jump off and get it while it was still moist as possible. Because it's going to dry out really quick in Australian environment so pitcher when Europeans turn up in his try and they bring cows ass horses. It's like heaven and the first cartoons upping guys and the local Dung Beetles go. What is that? I am not touching met. This is not in my job description. I'm used to these little dry pellets. I'm sorry it's not happening on over here in my trailer. Kangaroo pellets and cube. Wombat Poos and all that stuff stuff so none of the local Dung Beetles dealing with these four hundred years and it was increasing the number of flies. We had an ashtray with spreading disease. It was killing crops because it was just going onto the grass and there was less grasp with a cast eight so the irs in the sixties or the seventies reminding. They went to South Africa and France and found a whole bunch to Foreign Dung Beetles and immigrated them and family living in Australia. The most and which ones were deal with that Deng and reduce number flies huge amount so yeah say terrorism and the Dung beetles saved US saved us from sort of cap apocalypse. That's right pacalypse material for you for kids riding. And and she's such a great little. Intrepid character is constantly coming up with inventions. That go cataclysmic wrong. And then she saves the day Markle Michael Levitt coming back to the distress. That nick was talking about you. Know the psychology of pooing. You must see that every day I mean people probably take a lot of effort to get to you that I think anybody really wants to talk about the ballot by the time people come to see me. They've they've obviously got to a particular point of anxiety or distress or borrow pain. They realized that they've got to face up. Talk about it. Then they know that. Never that's GONNA lead to being examined very very private place that people don't like being examined so that's all represent challenges. There are a lot of unhappy people with a lot of unhappy bells and often having very unhappy encounters with the medical profession because there seems to be a lack of understanding reading about the variables that can affect the way our bell works. And it's all entangled with the fact that states of mind and states of body interact interact to affect our bells work to a message that average. GP in the working week probably wouldn't see many people who present with Abbad problem so that wouldn't be something that they feel particularly comfortable or at ease about and this general tendency to just deliver kind of public domain recommendations is eat more fiber drink more fluid and stuff like that which which I think is often very unhelpful. So that's not good enough for lots of the problems it isn't it. Generally is limited help to recommend those things. He's I was really struck in your book. The heavy bail. How little focus you place on Diet and fiber and what we ingest what passes through our small and large intestines? And how much it's you love a good laxative. That you love lex medications Saturday afternoons now. Houses lex afternoon. Just sit back and try something I mean different and Okay so I think that people have view of the bowel habit that it it is directly connected to what they ate so that is that if you put if anyone of US puts designated food this end we will get a designated output at the gathering but people's bows function incredibly differently one person to the next one gender to the next week difference between men and women's yeah and and so how we actually go to the toilet. What about have it looks like is only partly connected to the food that we put in and as a result Oh and people can't quite comprehend that they're having to do something let's say artificial to make their bows work that they honestly think that they should be able to resolve it by changing what they put it in the top in everybody's intestines and the motilal their intestines is different and hence the output will be different? Can I ask you a question. Some people say that drinking coffee in the morning is a laxative effect number for other people. It's not so I guess that ties with what you're saying. He's an some foods and drinks will be likes different people in some it won't be Caffeine is a laxative. Caffeine is a stimulant if you have a normally or briskly active got you will respond and welcome it. But if like a large percentage of the population you have a generally sluggish bell. You may not notice any impact with caffeine at all. It's like a black Mike Fox. You can put all things in the Pan but what's going to come out about a man will will depend on. What your black boxes like? What accounts for that variability? I mean I love the way you described a lot of men's bales. A fast and fruity and a lot of women's bales a slow and sluggish. You can make that generalization across the sex is a very famous famous professor of gastrologist from the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis about thirty years ago and and a lot about him because he and I have the same name and he conducted this study with healthy volunteers men and women with eight identical dots. Absolutely the same amounts of the same foods and fluids they. We're not allowed to leave anything. They had to eat it all drink at all and measure what came out and the average man had his bowels open. More often than the average woman produced a greater weight of stool stool More water and fitted them with contraptions measured. How much wind came out and the average man produced a greater amount of wind? And when I say that a patient sitting in front of me with partner they not so you know the average guy gets up in the morning puts his feet on the ground on straight to the toilet and doesn't for one minute doubt out what's about to happen but many women will get up in the morning on the ground and ask themselves. What am I going to have to eat drink and do today to get back to work? What do we know about why there is that difference? It's so people. Ask Me that and I say well. Let's have a look at the average height of the population and is the average man. Toll shorter the same height as the average average woman. He's at his taller. Do we know why it's there are differences between genders of a physiological nature. That just exist. Come on you've got to give me more than it is certainly not got to do with Diet. As a general rule because of their propensity dislikes the average woman eats more fruit and veg than average guy. Average guy is Ebi. Over does the fruit and VEG. He becomes a social reckless stance to blow a hole in the ozone layer only way very wary about fruit and veg. It is a science fiction all about with colorectal surgeon. Michael Livid Children's author James Foley Holly and Psychology Professor Nicholas Hesam or at the State Theatre Centre off W. A. Rod in the heart of Earth. Nick has LEM. Freud had had an absolute field day. Sigmund Freud had a field day with bell function. And this kind of odd idea. That Bell Function is related alighted to personality type with all sorts of curious theories. The I know retains personality theories about bow function and child development the emerging kind of self and identity is sort of paralleled to the what are bells are doing at any point in time and capacity to control about functions. Tell us about what about why they was that fascination. What some of the ideas were? You'll think this fascination actually goes back Alana only two to fraud and of course a lot of Freud's ideas of being gene largely accepted to be rather bogus but I think at the time. There was a lot of fascination in the general medical community about the possibility that out gots were causing our New York illness so it wasn't only the CYCLORAMAS so this idea of auto intoxication this idea that the fishes passing through our intestines or in some way poisoning us. And so the idea that you had to improve approve. Mutability were was a key. Part of what psychiatrists at the time. We're trying to to do but Freud okay. Freud has very interesting ideas and he essentially thought that most most of what happens in the way of personality development occurs in the first roughly five or six years of life and that children's fascinations that have moved from different body parts and systems to cut a long story short. He said that. When you're a toddler after you've passed out of infancy You develop this fascination with your bottom essentially with the growing control you have over your speakers and that this is actually an important psychological time in your development because not just learning control over those this particular species but learning muscle control in general being your own Master Rodman just this blob that gets fed by your parents and he said that it can go wrong. You can go wrong in your Movement through this stage he said that you could develop their anal character type. If your navigation. I'm trying to avoid the word passage the leaning. Okay your passage Through the final stage was was problematic. You might be left with this residue of personnel. Where you'd have what he called? The anal character and the character was this combination of being the Dan tick Stubborn cheap cheap with money Really concerned about wasting time unable to delegate responsibilities Etcetera Etcetera Etcetera Ford was right. There is this character type actually the current. DSM anyone cares about modern. Psychiatry has disorders diagnostic. Uil Rusty Bob Psychiatric diagnosis. And it says there's this thing called obsessive compulsive personality disorder which is exactly what Freud called the anal character. The problem ause the research shows that there was absolutely no link whatsoever so ever between toilet training and enjoying or not enjoying Passing who is a child with his character types of the character types real there there is an idol catatonic just go online to do bottoms. Yeah so the. The idol aspect of the physicality isn't really an idol story at all. No and he had an our story about the idea was that he found that the patients who had this character type as adults recollected that as children they had a great deal of pleasure in holding back and sometimes releasing as well and so he could tell a story about where it came from. It just happens to be a false story. So the question of Jane Fonda two psychologists it has looked at that as well the gender differences between well all sorts of aspects of of Bowel function and toilet eating. Haven't they so dislike monocle. Michael said there's also to physiological differences all sorts of ways in which excretion sheds light on gender women. Judge much higher standard when it comes to Clinton. Is this idea ear that Women actually being excreted still controversial time precisely that is also an I think you know. There's all sorts of studies on this thing so I'll try to remember The experimenter female or male experimenter in this study excuses herself so for himself to go either to the bathroom or to go to pick up some papers and afterwards the participants in the study are asked to of their impressions of this person Whether the man is gone has left the room to go to the bathroom or to collect. Some papers makes no difference to how he's seen but the woman who confesses that she's going to the bathroom is much much more negatively. There's still a stigma into attached to the idea of women as impure beings. There's still this greater policing of women's odor cleanliness hygiene. We more Sary's of of women who don't hold to those standards and women have internalized that so I think there are also more prone to arrange of some of the the Psychological conditions is associated with these issues but also just judge the thing most of the on them. It's the final frontier. Feminism isn't it. We need a fat lead reverie revolution I think and so ladies wherever you Baylor Vaden you win blow free. I say that's one solution. Look civilized allies men. But look I think this is easy to jerk about these things build things as well so there was a great piece in the New York Times about a month. Go I think where it was documented? How many women at work will not go to the bathroom at work or we'll find all sorts of ways to go to different floors on their building in some some cases drive home? This price paid by this and it's only a minority but it's a large enough minority that we maybe should care about and so the whole idea of parody and sensitivity and norms. I think is really quite important. I'll just loop back to markel there before I come to you. James this is a real issue in the medical profession into isn't it and also male partners of women discount the differences so that you know just come on get it together. I can in Peru easily. Why can't you but it affects? Also how women are responded to by the medical profession while you've got a psychological problem dialing that's not just true of male Patna's US but e mail prescribers say if you happen to see a male doctor whether they're specialist or general practitioner with male pharmacist in the process of looking for advice. There's a tendency for men to assume that because they had good balance late everyone else is going to be a good balance late and therefore incidents they respond well to to a good dose of fiber. You're going to respond to that too. I think that that's just a complete failure to appreciate the critical importance. Ordinance of what we call colonic transit. which is the time it takes things cigarette get around the call on and the fact that is unequivocally slow in women irrespective of what they drink and so it has a really tangible impact those differences in women? I just noticed something to you. I can remember that. Sorry I'm dropping you in on national radio. The dads in general that they will be more allowed to set of freely and make a joke of it at the dinner table. Oh bullfrogs tonight. Oh you know that sort of stuff but your member the few times you ever heard you. It was like once a year maybe at the most mum. How dare you and it's so weird? Isn't it that we hold we MOMS. It does to different standards with that. It is weird I think and also sort of make a ceremony of going to the toilet. They take the newspaper and Net slicks. Maybe these days and make bank and occasion of it which is a problem for bell health. It's just that there is the double standard as James pointed out. It's also the part of masculinity is rejection of Feminine Delicacy and so this is sort of celebratory performance aspect of it sometimes as well I mean the especially among adolescents. Boys you know. Part of being gross is being non female so I think the celebration of fighting and things like that has not just a gender nature better performance gender. Tonight's debate about grossness is mile. We should have some famous experts up here to tell you just to balance out the famous off go to bail it's true. Aw It's all happening right here. James Foley guest your notes. This is a fantastic story. Selley and Charlie Charlie they climb inside a submarine. They shrink Dan and some have I end up little brother. Joey's intestine and stomach facing off hidden. Ah Yes they do so it was never intended that they would go inside buy joy they were just testing out a shrinking submarine that they could use to go on the benches his in the in the fish tank and clean the fish tank more easily but by accidentally swallows them in this vile of liquid along with a whole bunch of little buts and an invention called the smart cheap sheep which Sally was gonNA use on herself it was going to implant itself into her brain and turn his super super super smart. But now it's going to go inside. Maybe Joe everything goes wrong again. That's right and so they have to find it inside his body when they get to. The brain is not their spoiler alert and have to go through the body. Find out which organ it's actually gone to and of course it's gone to the most powerful organ baby joe which is his large intestine and so they have to end up there and turning off this massive massive invention and then have to find a way out and coming back to laxatives actives. There's a level of little solution there and then as a massive tsunami of Poo Poo nominee. If you will so that was a lot of fun to drive. I kind of here. I thought I was going over the line with this one but I think I just skated right up to it and it is a fine line it is when you leave all your characters coded in warping wapping big Pooh and joey ends up. Kind of sky rocketed sky high because of the massive yes rocket proportions sends NASA would be impressed. Yes he's a boy. He's allowed to be grossed. You say we can get away with that. So I'd be interested in this this idea of using science in graphic novels as you you do science fiction away. Zahn lively science fiction with great famous protagonists. Yes but there's also a mad scientist trope that you Camin Sally is Frankenstein. Yeah she's and she's rick from Rick and morty she's always she's a dock from back to the future she's always sort of mad scientists but it never been one. That was a little go so I thought well let's do that. Let's have a young girl who said she signed up for my schedule is hi is this. It'll go holding a spanner like an inventor so we went from there. Yeah so you should. Where did she come from? Do you think she's Abbassi older sibling. That's that's what she was in the very first book and that's me if you look at photos of me and my little brother on my I I have school. He looks just like Joe. And I'm just I'm almost like sally just missing the the Piney town. Yeah so it's basically my brother is. I think you say you're Sally Sally. Oh I'm pretty sure. Every Rauscher Surin illustrated just draws about themselves rarely administrator that but this idea of a mad scientist troy but we could it could spin either way could not could entice girls and children into the sciences or it could make them associate science with mad people. If Mary things yeah sure I understand exactly. I mean I've always been more interested in the fiction than the nonfiction writing. So if it's fiction you gotTa have some conflict. You've got to have some stuff. That goes wrong so that has to be some sort of element of danger. Durin destruction and chaos and I think being more of a retentive story. OCD SORT of personality myself. In some ways I I'm always interested in stories about ah chaos in order I think. And that's just what the basic story structure is bad. You got a character. He's got everything ordered. And then chaos is introduced. And they're gonNA find a way to live with that or to get it back to the head of the Stan. Yeah that's fiction metaphor for a bells as well function just before we come to audience for a couple of minutes markle livered. The book is called the heavy bell what he is. How would you describe a heavy bail? A heavy bell is an empty balch. That is certainly one thing that you say. I came to the to riding the book on the basis. That that if I could describe a good bowel action and and what leads to a good balance and then I could then analyze what it is that goes wrong and so there are four elements to good bad action. I think is a say in all recorded accorded human history every satisfactory bell action has been prompt to sit and start promptly and without stranding so prompting effortless brief reef to over and done within a matter of seconds and complete leaves about empty prompt effortless brief incomplete and in order to for that to be the case there I have to be two fundamental elements present one of them is an unequivocally strong urge to go so that the edge go is strong and true you get to the toilet. You know what it's about to happen. There's no doubt and the stool consistency the bow motion itself the boots of needs to be solid informed and I said like the shape appearance although not the color of an unripe banana so a strong urge and a solid stool are the building blocks of a good bound what action. MVP string a couple of those actions together. Then you've got a good bail habit and bow happy bail. And what are the three days worth so for people who have trouble getting to the toilet at the time the strong sometimes. That's because they never generate stronger because they've got generally sluggish bows but the three days is really just a simple kind of tiny little behavioral approach to people who've got trouble with the timing de number one is delay or defer which is the sign on the outside of the tour. Oh that's is if you're not busing. Heavy bells open this instant back off style. You don't go there. On a speculative mission thinking well maybe could be. Yeah I think I could but it's got to be unequivocally strong urge and don't take the newspaper in hoping that something might come. That's important that all that does is just reward. A BAD EH decision to go to the toilet bad timing number two is desist. which is the sign on the inside of the toilet? That looks at you. That says if you've been here for thirty seconds and nothing's happened get out and December three. which is the most important is distinguished? And that's really to get people to relearn the signals that that are reliably gonNA result in prompt and if it was initiation of differentiation and those signals that are just false alarms and so it's deferred desist and distinguish and the three days. And I came up with that fifteen years ago and it's still very well and all your patients by the sense to yeah. There's some fantastic case studies. I think we've got time for just a couple of questions so go for it. Hi thanks very much Thanks so much for this. WanNa hear more about fecal transplant. And how it's going going to change our relationship to pool. Yeah interesting question the idea of faecal transplants ago. So it's a fantastic concept. Isn't it that you would have somebody else's Pu injected into your colon but that is now widely accepted best practice for one very very confined indication and and that is for antibiotic resistant clustered him deficit than fiction. Nafta that doesn't make any sense to you. That's a good thing but CD facilities a nasty Asti. `Bug that that can colonize the call long. In particularly people who've been given antibiotics and can produce very very dangerous diarrhea dysentery condition addition. It generally responds to stand at any BOLIC's Metronidazole Vancomycin. It doesn't respond to those recurs. After those then fecal transplantation station is often very effective. There's a fecal China. It's emulsified and screen for all sorts of nasty infections since because there have been reported. Deaths from transplanting faces from someone who had a nasty Bergen it and killed the recipient which is clearly not a good thing. But that is the indication. For Four fecal microbial transplantation people have made some interesting observations. In the process of Figel micro transplantation the people who had certain other conditions in mental health conditions such as depression appear to have been corrected and improved. And so there's a everyone's having a step step back and saying well changing the microbiome. The bacteria in the colon might have some other significant health benefits but by by the same token it could have significant health detriments because if the darn it happens to have had other conditions that say mental health conditions or other immunologic conditions. Nations may be using their feces. Going to actually be. It'll it'll fix the seed if assume infection but of course other problems so I think that was very excited about it. I think we you need to remember that. There is only one rare indication for its use. It has shown some benefit in the treatment of acute. They're also collider's I think it's it remains to be seen so watch this space. More evidence required now the question thanks. I'm just interested in the idea. I mean I love the flushing toilet. Don't get me wrong but I also used to be field ecologist. I I used to pull in the woods behind. The bushes are in the sand. And I'm interested in this idea that we caught disconnected from our Po- these days and so we find revolting but maybe we could learn more about our own health more bit more connected to opponent. Maybe had to pull in the woods. Yeah the Germans a great at this. They love going. ooh What's in that toilet and what does it look like today. I love them for that Short. Look I think anyway which we're estranged from our bodily nature's probably doing some damage to us and I think it's worth remembering that people don't come into this world with an instinctive aversion to it so one of my psychological heroes a guy called paws and And he did this. Famous study where he put put. Fake dog made up of stinky cheese and peanut butter mixed together on a cracker offered it to children of different ages in the second the two year olds loved it. They were told hold on a biscuit. Will you eat it. And the two year olds loved it. You had is only Sony. Three and above learned version and a diversion can be unlearn and and maybe we should retain some degree version but the same some degree of curiosity. Not Saying this is not me this is me just sort it out the snacks next book at lunch. Ask a question so so you know I can remember a long time ago holiday to to Rome and we got. We went on a tour. We got the wrong tool. We didn't know where we ended up in a place called Ostia and austere. We went on a there's an excavation or and it's the old ablation block walk now. There were scores could have been one hundred seats around with little balls. We people from Austria would go. I would literally next to each other. And there was a common sort of channel underneath which we're water just flowed and excrement away and those people set next to each other. So that's only two thousand years ago. Isn't it amazing. Because the psychology of being away from your own toilet violet and not being after Pu for days and days and days when you're on holiday because he not in your bathroom bizarre. Let's learn privacy habit. You know there's nothing about human nights which requires is is to be separated in stores and we're doing but part of what's happened is that we have managed to make this very private act that adds to the shame. And that's the disgust. I think well I think this has been an illuminating session. And now you can all go home evacuate your bells. I'm really delighted to have had the opportunity to talk to James Foley. Nick has limb and Monaco Livid thank you for coming and details of their fabulous some bottoms. And what comes out of them over on the science. What's friction website? Thanks to the quantum words festival writing W. A. and Writing New South Wales teams for having us into sound engineer. David Lemay and Richard Gervin talked hoped on twitter as ever at Natasha. Mitchell look where he obey let you win blow free will we embrace and Ryan